---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 11/23/05: 41 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:51 AM - Re: Re GPS Indicators: WAS: GPS in Lieu of DME, Was: (rd2@evenlink.com AeroElectric-List) 2. 06:42 AM - Re: Re: Latching power relays? (John Huft) 3. 07:01 AM - GX60 internal battery (Ralph E. Capen) 4. 07:12 AM - Fw: Re: Avionics-List: GX60 internal battery - 2nd attempt (Ralph E. Capen) 5. 07:49 AM - Avionics Essential Buss (Dan Beadle) 6. 07:56 AM - Re: Fw: Re: Avionics-List: GX60 internal battery - 2nd attempt (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 7. 08:04 AM - Re: Master Relay Mount (rv-9a-online) 8. 08:20 AM - Re: Master Relay Mount (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 9. 08:34 AM - Re: Master Relay Mount (BobsV35B@aol.com) 10. 08:35 AM - Re: Avionics Essential Buss (Dave Morris \) 11. 08:42 AM - Re: Avionics Essential Buss (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 12. 09:14 AM - Re: Re GPS Indicators: WAS: GPS in Lieu of DME, Was: (Matt Prather) 13. 09:19 AM - Re: A couple of questions (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 14. 09:49 AM - Re: Master Relay Mount (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 15. 10:13 AM - Re: GX60 internal battery (Ralph E. Capen) 16. 10:24 AM - Re: Re GPS Indicators: WAS: GPS in Lieu of DME, Was: MD200... (Kevin Horton) 17. 10:25 AM - How to Wire a ND Alternator () 18. 10:44 AM - Re: Latching power relays? () 19. 10:58 AM - Re: Re GPS Indicators: WAS: GPS in Lieu of DME, Was: MD200... (BobsV35B@aol.com) 20. 11:07 AM - Re: Avionics Essential Buss (Dr. Peter Laurence) 21. 11:07 AM - Re: Alternator terminals (Mark R. Supinski) 22. 11:07 AM - Re: Latching power relays? () 23. 11:14 AM - Re: Re GPS Indicators: WAS: GPS in Lieu of DME, Was: MD200... (BobsV35B@aol.com) 24. 11:44 AM - Re: Re GPS Indicators: WAS: GPS in Lieu of DME, Was: (Matt Prather) 25. 11:52 AM - Re: Velcro vs Ty-Wraps (Speedy11@aol.com) 26. 12:04 PM - Too-close radio reception (Fiveonepw@aol.com) 27. 12:07 PM - Re: Avionics Essential Buss (Jerry Grimmonpre) 28. 12:08 PM - Re: Velcro vs Ty-Wraps (Speedy11@aol.com) 29. 12:59 PM - Re: Re: Velcro vs Ty-Wraps () 30. 01:04 PM - Lacing, a lost art? () 31. 01:04 PM - Re: Re: Velcro vs Ty-Wraps (BobsV35B@aol.com) 32. 03:51 PM - Re: Avionics Essential Buss (Peter Laurence) 33. 05:15 PM - Re: Avionics Essential Buss (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 34. 05:58 PM - Re: Avionics Essential Buss (Jerry Grimmonpre) 35. 06:01 PM - What We Are Thankful For... (Matt Dralle) 36. 06:53 PM - Re: Re: Latching power relays? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 37. 08:00 PM - Re: Re: Latching power relays? (Steven DiNieri) 38. 08:28 PM - Re: Re: Latching power relays? (David Carter) 39. 09:42 PM - Re: Avionics Essential Buss (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 40. 09:46 PM - Re: Re: Latching power relays? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 41. 11:03 PM - "HAPPY THANKSGIVING" (WRBYARS@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:51:00 AM PST US From: "rd2@evenlink.com AeroElectric-List": MD200...@roxy.matronics.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Re GPS Indicators: WAS: GPS in Lieu of DME, Was: AeroElectric-List: MD200... --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: rd2@evenlink.com AeroElectric-List: MD200... And soon (end of year/early 2006) Garmin will offer overhauls of 430/530's to WAAS. The unit will need to be sent to Garmin. Cost: $2000. Source: Garmin. Rumen do not archive _____________________Original message __________________________ (received from BobsV35B@aol.com; Date: 09:55 PM 11/22/2005 EST) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com In a message dated 11/22/2005 8:03:40 P.M. Central Standard Time, mprather@spro.net writes: I'd still have to buy a CDI with a glideslope though, whatever I do (even if I don't add an approach GPS). Good Evening Matt, The 430 is the cheapest way to go. You will need only the CDI and that only because the 430 has a localizer and glide slope that need to be connected to one. If the Panel Control Unit is within a reasonable line of sight, such as in the center or far left of the panel, nothing else is needed. For an airplane that has no radios at all. The 430 takes care of everything. Add a handheld Com and a handheld GPS and you will be loaded for bear. A 480 is a very competent machine, but it is a LOT more money and only allows a few more approaches. In a few years, there will be a greater need for the 480 style equipment, but I would suggest waiting for competition before purchasing one. Right now, the 480 is the only unit approved under the WAAS standards. Of course, if money is no object!!---??? Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8503 -- Checked by AVG Free Edition. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:42:00 AM PST US From: John Huft Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Latching power relays? version=3.0.3 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John Huft At the beginning of this thread, Bob K. asked why you all were interested in latching relays...did I miss the answer? We used to use them in power-critical applications...that is not the case in an airplane...so why? John Bob White wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Bob White > > On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 12:01:01 +1000 > "Greg@itmack" wrote: > > >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Greg@itmack" >> >>I couldn't find any pricing, how much are the 9012 and the 9112 versions? >>My local supplier sells them for $145 & $216. > > > Try http://store.wmjmarine.com/s9012.html $125. Sometimes you can find > them cheaper on ebay. > > Bob W. > > do not archive > > >>>This part is available from Blue Sea Systems in two versions for far less >>>money than most companies charge. See: >>> >>>http://www.bluesea.com/dept.asp?d_id=6619&l1=7958&l2=6607 >>> >>>Regards, >>>Eric M. Jones >>>www.PerihelionDesign.com >>>113 Brentwood Drive >>>Southbridge MA 01550-2705 >>>(508) 764-2072 >>> >>>"Every act of conscious learning requires the willingness to suffer an >>>injury to one's self-esteem...." >>> -Thomas Szasz >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:01:48 AM PST US From: "Ralph E. Capen" Subject: AeroElectric-List: GX60 internal battery --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ralph E. Capen" Fellow listers, I am getting an error message stating that my internal battery needs service in my GX60. The unit continues to function - I just have to press the msg button every few minutes. This only started since I upgraded the datacard - that may be coincidental though. Anyone else seen this? Is it home-repairable...with the correct battery? I have done some miniature soldering so I could probably do it...... The archives show some of the portable units needing a similar repair - being done by the owner. Sure would save some RV gas money! Thanks, Ralph Capen ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:12:11 AM PST US From: "Ralph E. Capen" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Fw: Re: Avionics-List: GX60 internal battery - 2nd attempt --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ralph E. Capen" Forwarded for other list benefit -----Forwarded Message----- From: Marvin Dupree <97corvette@cox.net> Subject: Re: Avionics-List: GX60 internal battery - 2nd attempt --> Avionics-List message posted by: Marvin Dupree <97corvette@cox.net> my experience with changing an internal battery in my panel mounted gps was good. i did talk with the factory service people and they told me that the battery MUST be changed by them or it would not be legal to use the gps in an airplane. they wanted $250 minumum charge to change the battery. i bought one from radio shack and installed it. costs about 5 bucks and works fine. it's your call..... if you can do the job and if you want to. good luck. marvin p.s. if you want more details, e-mail me direct <97corvette@cox.net> On Nov 23, 2005, at 8:01 AM, Ralph E. Capen wrote: > --> Avionics-List message posted by: "Ralph E. Capen" > > > Noone responded on the first attempt > > > Fellow listers, > > I am getting an error message stating that my internal battery > needs service in my GX60. The unit continues to function - I just > have to press the msg button every few minutes. > > This only started since I upgraded the datacard - that may be > coincidental though. > > Anyone else seen this? Is it home-repairable...with the correct > battery? I have done some miniature soldering so I could probably > do it...... > > The archives show some of the portable units needing a similar > repair - being done by the owner. Sure would save some RV gas money! > > Thanks, > Ralph Capen > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:49:56 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Avionics Essential Buss From: "Dan Beadle" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Beadle" After reading the thread about Latching Relays instead of contactors, I took a closer look at the B&C 701 contactor. I was surprised to see that it takes about 1 amp to hold it in operation. This doesn't look like a good fit to power an Essential Buss. For example, if I used a 701 for an essential buss and had a typical radio in receive mode, more power would be going into the contactor than the radio. If I get rid of the contactor, I can double the operational time of the radio when on batteries or I can cut the battery size in half. I decided to design a micro-power solid state relay for my RV8 Avionics Buss. This has expanded to an avionics power conditioner. I have settled on the following features, but would like your suggestions on any omissions that might bite me. I am going to PCB soon. - 30 Amp total switching in two 15 A circuits (one for critical avionics, on for other - with a power out, I don't need two radios) - Faston connectors for each load, screw terminal for 30 amp input. - Built in circuit breakers for each circuit. Self resetting by cycling the avionics power - Suitable for wiring to the hot bus (directly to battery) - Power conditioning: - Load Dump Diode to trap negative swings in system (none in this System since there are no coils or inductors) - MOV to clamp any voltages above +22V Wiring is: - IN Thru fusible link directly from battery (Screw terminal for #8 wire) - Out1/2 Output to Avionics Buss 1, 2 (to fuses for each load) (FastOns for #10 wire) - SW 1/2 Switch input: Ground to turn on avionics buss 1/2 - Gnd Mounting holes & optional FastOn It seems that this solves three problems I wanted: 1: Maximum Avionics Essential Buss time - all energy is going into the radio, not the contactor. 2: Protecting the radios from noise and potentially damaging and expensive transient spikes 3: Ability to simply apply power to the avionics without powering all other systems for pre-flight clearances, etc. So, am I missing anything? Thanks Dan Beadle RV8 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:56:13 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Fw: Re: Avionics-List: GX60 internal battery - 2nd attempt From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Gee send your units to me and I'll do it for $200 a pop plus shipping....I been wanting to retire for a while...What a joke! Frank Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph E. Capen Subject: AeroElectric-List: Fw: Re: Avionics-List: GX60 internal battery - 2nd attempt --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ralph E. Capen" --> Forwarded for other list benefit -----Forwarded Message----- From: Marvin Dupree <97corvette@cox.net> Subject: Re: Avionics-List: GX60 internal battery - 2nd attempt --> Avionics-List message posted by: Marvin Dupree <97corvette@cox.net> my experience with changing an internal battery in my panel mounted gps was good. i did talk with the factory service people and they told me that the battery MUST be changed by them or it would not be legal to use the gps in an airplane. they wanted $250 minumum ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:04:29 AM PST US From: rv-9a-online Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Master Relay Mount --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: rv-9a-online Bob, another issue with the booties is that they interfere with torquing the mounting bolts. They will crack before the proper torque is achieved. I've chucked my B&C contactors for this reason. Vern Little RV-9A Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > >At 09:49 PM 11/22/2005 -0600, you wrote: > > > >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Emrath" >> >>Bob, >>Just received my shipment with the 701-1 contractor today, with the Plastic >>Booties on the mounting feet and without any marking "do no ground case". >>There is no continuity between any of the four posts and the case. As you >>say below, please confirm it is ok to remove the mounting booties for >>cooling reasons. These Booties are molded on the mounting feet and removing >>will destroy them in the process I'm sure. >>Marty in Brentwood TN >> >> > > Okay. I've not received any reply from inquiries to > White-Rogers/Stancor asking an engineering type to explain > the reason for adding the booties . . . > > One would like to believe that there was a good reason for > it but I'm mystified. I'm hard pressed to think of any > reason why they would be necessary after about 60 years > of production without them. > > I have no basis for recommending any particular action with > regard to this new feature. I'll see if I can contact anyone > there by telephone tomorrow. > > Bob . . . > > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:20:24 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Master Relay Mount --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 07:59 AM 11/23/2005 -0800, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: rv-9a-online > >Bob, another issue with the booties is that they interfere with torquing >the mounting bolts. They will crack before the proper torque is >achieved. I've chucked my B&C contactors for this reason. Excellent point! Okay, that's rational #1 for pulling the booties off. We'll see if any more surface over the next few days. Bob. . . ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:34:40 AM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Master Relay Mount --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com In a message dated 11/23/2005 10:06:58 A.M. Central Standard Time, rv-9a-online@telus.net writes: Bob, another issue with the booties is that they interfere with torquing the mounting bolts. They will crack before the proper torque is achieved. I've chucked my B&C contactors for this reason. Vern Little RV-9A Good Morning Vern, That brings up the question as to how we are determining "proper " torque? To have the attaching hardware stretched to just short of it's elastic limit is one type of "torque". To squeeze a plastic such as the booties to a point where no creeping or cracking is another form of "proper" torque. If elastic stop nuts are used for attachment of the booted device, they should hold adequately at whatever point is determined to be optimum for the subject fastening. The term "torque to specification" is often used without proper regard to what it is that we are trying to accomplish. Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8503 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:35:36 AM PST US From: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Avionics Essential Buss --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" A few things to consider: 1. Why do you power your essential bus through a contactor? In the event you are operating on battery power and worried about current, you should be powering it through the Normal/EBus switch directly from the battery. 2. But your solution is feeding your entire avionics through a single point of failure, not just an Avionics Master Switch, but also adding a bunch of power conditioning circuitry in between, that is even more likely to fail than an avionics master switch. 3. You went from an avionics bus that is worried about a 1A contactor current to a power conditioning circuit capable of supplying 30 amps? I think you've got some "scope creep" going on. Look into the Carnetix line of power conditioners designed to supply computers from an automotive electrical system, if you really want a power conditioning circuit that has already been tested in the field. I think you're overbuilding your avionics system, though. Dave Morris At 09:49 AM 11/23/2005, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Beadle" > > > >After reading the thread about Latching Relays instead of contactors, I >took a closer look at the B&C 701 contactor. I was surprised to see >that it takes about 1 amp to hold it in operation. This doesn't look >like a good fit to power an Essential Buss. For example, if I used a >701 for an essential buss and had a typical radio in receive mode, more >power would be going into the contactor than the radio. > >If I get rid of the contactor, I can double the operational time of the >radio when on batteries or I can cut the battery size in half. > >I decided to design a micro-power solid state relay for my RV8 Avionics >Buss. This has expanded to an avionics power conditioner. I have >settled on the following features, but would like your suggestions on >any omissions that might bite me. I am going to PCB soon. > >- 30 Amp total switching in two 15 A circuits (one for critical >avionics, on for other - with a power out, I don't need two radios) >- Faston connectors for each load, screw terminal for 30 amp input. >- Built in circuit breakers for each circuit. Self resetting by cycling >the avionics power >- Suitable for wiring to the hot bus (directly to battery) >- Power conditioning: > - Load Dump Diode to trap negative swings in system (none in >this > System since there are no coils or inductors) > - MOV to clamp any voltages above +22V > >Wiring is: > >- IN Thru fusible link directly from battery > (Screw terminal for #8 wire) >- Out1/2 Output to Avionics Buss 1, 2 (to fuses for each load) > (FastOns for #10 wire) >- SW 1/2 Switch input: Ground to turn on avionics buss 1/2 >- Gnd Mounting holes & optional FastOn > > >It seems that this solves three problems I wanted: > >1: Maximum Avionics Essential Buss time - all energy is going into the >radio, not the contactor. > >2: Protecting the radios from noise and potentially damaging and >expensive transient spikes > >3: Ability to simply apply power to the avionics without powering all >other systems for pre-flight clearances, etc. > >So, am I missing anything? > >Thanks > >Dan Beadle >RV8 > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:42:47 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Avionics Essential Buss --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 07:49 AM 11/23/2005 -0800, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Beadle" > > > >After reading the thread about Latching Relays instead of contactors, I >took a closer look at the B&C 701 contactor. I was surprised to see >that it takes about 1 amp to hold it in operation. This doesn't look >like a good fit to power an Essential Buss. For example, if I used a >701 for an essential buss and had a typical radio in receive mode, more >power would be going into the contactor than the radio. It's not and was never suggested that it be used in that manner. When the alternator is running, there is power to burn and tossing of 12w or so in a continuous duty contactor is a non-issue. Architectures described in the connection bypass all such contactors in the alternator-out mode. See this discussion in Chapter 17 and Appendix Z >If I get rid of the contactor, I can double the operational time of the >radio when on batteries or I can cut the battery size in half. Which is exactly what the architectures presented do for you. If you have an extraordinary e-bus load, Figure Z-32 suggests a 100 mA alternative to battery contactors for controlling the battery bus feeder to the e-bus. >I decided to design a micro-power solid state relay for my RV8 Avionics >Buss. This has expanded to an avionics power conditioner. I have >settled on the following features, but would like your suggestions on >any omissions that might bite me. I am going to PCB soon. > >- 30 Amp total switching in two 15 A circuits (one for critical >avionics, on for other - with a power out, I don't need two radios) >- Faston connectors for each load, screw terminal for 30 amp input. >- Built in circuit breakers for each circuit. Self resetting by cycling >the avionics power >- Suitable for wiring to the hot bus (directly to battery) >- Power conditioning: > - Load Dump Diode to trap negative swings in system (none in >this > System since there are no coils or inductors) > - MOV to clamp any voltages above +22V > >Wiring is: > >- IN Thru fusible link directly from battery > (Screw terminal for #8 wire) >- Out1/2 Output to Avionics Buss 1, 2 (to fuses for each load) > (FastOns for #10 wire) >- SW 1/2 Switch input: Ground to turn on avionics buss 1/2 >- Gnd Mounting holes & optional FastOn > > >It seems that this solves three problems I wanted: > >1: Maximum Avionics Essential Buss time - all energy is going into the >radio, not the contactor. > >2: Protecting the radios from noise and potentially damaging and >expensive transient spikes > >3: Ability to simply apply power to the avionics without powering all >other systems for pre-flight clearances, etc. > >So, am I missing anything? Not sure that you missed anything . . . just pondering the return on $investment$ for the effort. There are lots of really modern, nice technologies out there capable of doing things with less weight, less power, more switching options, etc. The real question to ask and answer is, "How do any of these efforts or technologies help me achieve the elegant design?" As I've suggested in the 'Connection and many times here on the list: My personal design goals are to minimize parts count, minimize numbers of options that a pilot must consider when things are not operating normally, and minimizing cost of ownership where part of those costs include acquisition and installation dollars. For example, the EV200 is a fine relay. It costs about 4x that of an el-cheeso S701-1. Does its PERFORMANCE differences justify the extra dollars? If not, do I KNOW that I'll get 3-4x the service life? At the moment I have no basis for suggesting it will last a whole lot longer. If you're crafting a whole new technology, do you plan to market it? If this is a one-of-a-kind project only for your airplane, I'll suggest that the return on $investment$ may be exceedingly low. If this is an educational exercise that addresses your desire to know and experience, then it doesn't matter. ALL educational endeavors are quite expensive in time and dollars. I went out to the flight line with a builder at OSH many years ago who wanted to demonstrate the electrical distribution system in his Glasair. He was an airline pilot and took some cues from the system-flow diagrams in the AFM of his Boeing. In this case, he had engraved the same kind of flow diagram onto the placard that labeled about six switches. He attempted to explain how this system covered all the bases but in the few minutes I spent with him, I could not see how he'd made the system anything but heavier, higher parts count and more complex. My question to you would be, "Where to you perceive that any one of the architectures depicted in the 'Connection fall short of the goals you've outlined for your efforts?" If I have missed something, I'd certainly like to be aware of it so that it can be rectified. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:14:45 AM PST US From: Matt Prather Subject: Re: Re GPS Indicators: WAS: GPS in Lieu of DME, Was: AeroElectric-List: MD200... --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Matt Prather Hi Bob, Thanks for the suggestion. I would like to be convinced of what you are saying. However, I can't make the costs work out as you say. 430 Install Costs: GNS-430....$5000 (used) - $6360 (cheapest, new - gaavionics in Georgia) CDI.............$1650 (Garmin) Installation....$1600 Total............$8250 - $9660 (depending on whether new/used) Alternate0: KLN89B.....$2200 (reconditioned - avionix.com) CDI.............$1500 (MD200) Switchbox......$800 (not sure if needed) Installation....$1600 (SWAG) Total............$6300 For what I am going to be doing, I don't know if the GNS is $2100-$3300 better than the KLN... The unit will be installed in the bottom of an old C182A panel.. Don't know if that means I can get away without a separate annunciator.. A picture of the panel as it sits: http://www.webpak.net/~mprather/Airplanes/IMG_1656.JPG The best I could probably do is put the GNS-430 where the KX165 is now, and move the KX-165 to where the KX-170B is.. Regards, Matt- BobsV35B@aol.com wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com > > >In a message dated 11/22/2005 8:03:40 P.M. Central Standard Time, >mprather@spro.net writes: > >I'd still have to buy a CDI >with a glideslope though, whatever I do (even if I don't add an approach >GPS). > > >Good Evening Matt, > >The 430 is the cheapest way to go. You will need only the CDI and that only >because the 430 has a localizer and glide slope that need to be connected to >one. If the Panel Control Unit is within a reasonable line of sight, such as >in the center or far left of the panel, nothing else is needed. > >For an airplane that has no radios at all. The 430 takes care of >everything. Add a handheld Com and a handheld GPS and you will be loaded for bear. A >480 is a very competent machine, but it is a LOT more money and only allows a >few more approaches. In a few years, there will be a greater need for the >480 style equipment, but I would suggest waiting for competition before >purchasing one. Right now, the 480 is the only unit approved under the WAAS >standards. Of course, if money is no object!!---??? > >Happy Skies, > >Old Bob >AKA >Bob Siegfried >Ancient Aviator >Stearman N3977A >Brookeridge Air Park LL22 >Downers Grove, IL 60516 >630 985-8503 > > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:19:38 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: A couple of questions --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > >Bob, I have a 40 AMP alternator and the B&C 20 AMP alternator. I am also >using the B&C Alternators that go with FIG Z-12, and wiring largely IAW >Z-12, but rather than have an essential bus I am planning on turning off >everything that is not needed in the event of a problem. (Most everything >will run on the 20 amp short of the pitot heat and cabin/landing lights). >If they are both wired up to feed into the same system will anything >horrible happen (cook one of the regulators, wiring, radios) if they are >left on together? I'm not sure I understand your concerns. If you purchase the B&C 20A alternator and its companion regulator, then this system is designed to operated in concert with another alternator as described in Z-12 as well as B&C's installation literature for that product. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:49:10 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Master Relay Mount --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 11:34 AM 11/23/2005 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com > > >In a message dated 11/23/2005 10:06:58 A.M. Central Standard Time, >rv-9a-online@telus.net writes: > >Bob, another issue with the booties is that they interfere with torquing >the mounting bolts. They will crack before the proper torque is >achieved. I've chucked my B&C contactors for this reason. > >Vern Little >RV-9A > > >Good Morning Vern, > >That brings up the question as to how we are determining "proper " torque? > >To have the attaching hardware stretched to just short of it's elastic limit >is one type of "torque". To squeeze a plastic such as the booties to a >point where no creeping or cracking is another form of "proper" torque. If >elastic stop nuts are used for attachment of the booted device, they >should hold >adequately at whatever point is determined to be optimum for the subject >fastening. > >The term "torque to specification" is often used without proper regard to >what it is that we are trying to accomplish. Exactly. When I design joints that have compressibility, I'll call out an all metal locknut. Drive the threaded fasteners together such that all the slack is out. Finally I'll specify some amount of additional rotation beyond the zero-slack point where thread pitch and rotation set the crush value. Stancor's choice of plastic in this instance is truly mystifying. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:13:04 AM PST US From: "Ralph E. Capen" rvlist@matronics.com, rv6-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: GX60 internal battery --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ralph E. Capen" Just called Garmin-AT - got lucky..... There is a difference between dead battery and needs service....the needs service indicates that the unit is charging the battery and could vent into the system. If the battery was dead I would have gotten a different error message. According to the service technician...... Good news is that since my airplane has not flown - it is still covered by warranty...great - allows me to test prior to first flight. Ralph Capen RV6A N822AR N06 90% 90% -----Original Message----- From: "Ralph E. Capen" Subject: AeroElectric-List: GX60 internal battery --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ralph E. Capen" Fellow listers, I am getting an error message stating that my internal battery needs service in my GX60. The unit continues to function - I just have to press the msg button every few minutes. This only started since I upgraded the datacard - that may be coincidental though. Anyone else seen this? Is it home-repairable...with the correct battery? I have done some miniature soldering so I could probably do it...... The archives show some of the portable units needing a similar repair - being done by the owner. Sure would save some RV gas money! Thanks, Ralph Capen ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:24:09 AM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: Re GPS Indicators: WAS: GPS in Lieu of DME, Was: AeroElectric-List: MD200... --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kevin Horton On 23 Nov 2005, at 12:12, Matt Prather wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Matt Prather > > > Hi Bob, > > Thanks for the suggestion. I would like to be convinced of what > you are > saying. However, I can't make the costs work out as you say. > > 430 Install Costs: > GNS-430....$5000 (used) - $6360 (cheapest, new - gaavionics in > Georgia) > CDI.............$1650 (Garmin) > Installation....$1600 > Total............$8250 - $9660 (depending on whether new/used) > > Alternate0: > KLN89B.....$2200 (reconditioned - avionix.com) > CDI.............$1500 (MD200) > Switchbox......$800 (not sure if needed) > Installation....$1600 (SWAG) > Total............$6300 > > For what I am going to be doing, I don't know if the GNS is $2100- > $3300 > better than the KLN... If you want to do a fair comparison, you need to add a NAV/COM with glideslope to Alternate0. Or, price out a GPS 400 instead of the GNS 430 (the 400 is a 430 without the NAV/COM). As for pricing, I would have thought you could do better than that. I purchased a new GNS 430 for less than $6000 from Stark Avionics in 2002. GNS 430 prices were on the way down at that time. Mid-Continent Instruments makes the Garmin CDIs - they are clones of the MD200. You can use the MD200 with the Garmin avionics. Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) Ottawa, Canada http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:25:15 AM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: How to Wire a ND Alternator --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: WIRING DIAGRAM: http://img487.imageshack.us/img487/2122/altwiring4ty.jpg How do you shut the alternator off?....with a breaker switch? If so, how do you connect a large wire to those switch terminals? OTHER REFS Niagara has a good dwg showing the warning light (ND w/ out remote volt sense) http://www.niagaraairparts.com/alt-instr.pdf More specific ND info (wiring) troubleshooting as installed in a Toyota http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h8.pdf (not all ND alternators have remote V sense) You will need two/three circuit breakers and or fuses / fusible links (CB): -B-LEAD: CB 5-10 amps greater than Alt's rated output (pull-able type CB required) -IGN LEAD: CB 5 amp (pull-able type recommended) -Warning light: use a small fuse/ CB. -Voltage sense: Fusible link would be good if connected to battery, or -Optional V sense wiring to buss use fuse/cb or fusible link. It's critical you turn the alternator ON before starting the engine and leave it on until you shut the engine down (alternator not turning). There are 3 or 4 wires on ND alternators, depending on the model. They all wire in a similar fashion except some have a remote voltage sense: B-lead: Output should be routed direct to a Circuit Breaker on the panel and than to your main electrical buss or positive side the battery. Usually the battery and alternator leads meet at the main buss, since they both are a source of power (critical never run the alternator with out the battery connected). Some claim that if you use a CB on the panel you will get electrical noise. This is plan flat not true. Wire Gage 6 AWG . The IGN wire: (This is not a FIELD WIRE) IT DOES NOT TURN THE ALTERNATOR ON AND OFF. What turns the alternator ON and OFF normally is starting and shutting the engine down (spinning the alternator pulley). You wire the IGN wire to the main buss thru a CB or fuse. A pull- able CB is best. What the IGN wire does is tell the regulator to wake-up or go to sleep. IT IS NOT MEANT or DESIGNED TO TURN THE ALTERNATOR ON OR OFF WHILE IT IS RUNNING (even though it may do this you can't count on it if the regulator fails). In the event the alternator needs to be isolated from the aircraft (electrically), you pull the B-lead CB in the PANEL, PERIOD end of story. I recommend a DPST switch for the ALT/BAT (double poll single throw). That way with the DPST switch you are always sure the alternator and BATT are turned on/off together. YOU MUST NOT TURN THE IGN WIRE OFF OR THE BATTERY MASTER OFF WHILE THE OTHER IS ON. With the Cessna split switch you can turn the alternator on / off accidentally while the alternator is energized and under load. Wire gage 18-20 AWG (I tend to make 18 AWG min gage for wires hanging off the engine.) The only time you want to remove power from the IGN wire while flying is if the alternator has a problem, BUT your first and primary action is to pull the B-lead CB first. Remember you DON'T normally turn the alternator on / off unless typically one of the following occurs: The voltage is too high The voltage is too low (dead) The voltage is irregular or unstable (Note: Highly recommend a good high/Lo voltage indicator on panel) Now if the alternator is dead and no longer needed, you already pulled the BIG CB on the panel for the B-lead, isolating the alternator, you now can pull the CB for the ALT or IGN wire, avoiding possible unnecessary drain to the regulator if you like. This is how it works in cars, which these alternators designed for. You don't shut the alternator down in a car do you? No. L or LIGHT (WARNING): This should be hooked up. Van omits this and leaves it disconnected. This is a mistake in my opinion. It is not only a "no charging" light, it's a fault light for the voltage regulator (VR). The VR is a microprocessor and can send a fault signal out and turn the light on. Use it. Any 12 V bulb will work. If you use a LED you need a DROP DOWN resistor, or use a LED that already has the resistor and made for 12 volts. Wire gage 18-20 AWG (I tend to make 18 AWG min gage for wires hanging off the engine.) Remote Voltage sense: This is meant to wire direct to the POS terminal of the battery. However Van again simplifies the wiring and just ties it together with the IGN wire at the alternator plug. You cannot leave the remote sense dis- connected or the alternator will not work properly. It is a good idea to use it as designed. If you do the Van recommend piggy backing onto the IGN wire it will work, but the voltage output may be 0.10 volt higher at the battery. I also think (not 100%) the voltage regulator looks at the B-lead voltage and the remote sense to provide better short detection and protection. Remember the VR is a microprocessor and it looks at the alternator and the wiring connected to it for shorts. I would use it if you have it. Cost and weight of a wire and a fuse/link is nil. Wire gage 18-20 AWG; since you want min voltage drop use 18 AWG. Typical set-point (voltage) is 14.5 volts on ND alternators. This is the perfect voltage for both lead acid, SLA or AGM. The Odyssey is a SLA (sealed lead acid) or AGM (absorbed glass mat). The two terms are interchangeable and basically same thing. They are also recumbent batteries (sealed electrolyte). Per Odyssey technical info, charge voltage should not be less than 14.2 or more than 15.0 volts. The whole post is found on Vansairforce.net vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?p=23385#post23385 There is an interesting link to a thread about an OV case with a ND alternator at the bottom of the above post. George --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:44:14 AM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Latching power relays? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: >How is the latching feature attractive to you? Where would >you use it? Bob: You use it for a master. It is attractive because it uses less power than the inefficient old heavy metal cased relay that gets too hot to touch after a minute. A "latching" relay like suggested is a good alternative, http://www.bluesea.com/dept.asp?d_id=6619&l1=7958&l2=6607 , also as Eric suggested. I hate the idea of a little heat bomb wasting power. George >Subject: Re: Latching power relays? >posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > >>AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jon Goguen >> >> >>I'm wondering if there is any data or experience regarding >>the use of >>modern latching power relays like those made by KG >>Technology or Gruner >>in light aircraft. These seem to have good resistance to >>shock >and vibration. >>> >>Jon >> >How is the latching feature attractive to you? Where would >you use it? > >Bob . . . --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:58:55 AM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: Re GPS Indicators: WAS: GPS in Lieu of DME, Was: AeroElectric-List: MD200... --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com In a message dated 11/23/2005 11:17:30 A.M. Central Standard Time, mprather@spro.net writes: For what I am going to be doing, I don't know if the GNS is $2100-$3300 better than the KLN... The unit will be installed in the bottom of an old C182A panel.. Don't know if that means I can get away without a separate annunciator.. A picture of the panel as it sits: http://www.webpak.net/~mprather/Airplanes/IMG_1656.JPG The best I could probably do is put the GNS-430 where the KX165 is now, and move the KX-165 to where the KX-170B is.. Good Morning Matt, When you are putting it in place of another VHF NAV radio, the economics won't work out as well. The 430 is the cheapest way to go when you have NO other radios in the airplane. Unfortunately, even the very best condition KX170B is not worth much used. I have installed several Trimble 2000 Approach Plus units doing what you are suggesting, however, I do the installation myself! I also do not use any annunciator at all but I do use a dedicated CDI. MCI originally priced those at four hundred bucks. When they discovered they were the only game in town, the price went up to well over a grand. It is still my opinion that I could get a KLN 89B or a Trimble certificated without a CDI, but it would take a lot of personal effort and if you have to pay someone to argue with the FEDs, it probably wouldn't be financially viable. Obviously, in order to get it certificated without a CDI, the Panel Control Unit would have to be in the "normal" pilot scan. You might check with J.A. Air Center at DuPage County Airport in the Suburban Chicago area about the pricing for a KLN 89B. Year before last, they were selling freshly rebuilt KLN 89Bs at Oshkosh for less than nine hundred bucks! I don't know if that included the antenna and sleeve, but I know that had a bunch of them very cheap. They do advertise in Trade a Plane and may have an 800 number. Their local number is 630 584-3200. If you call them, ask for Greg Bernicus. _gbernickus@jaair.com_ (mailto:gbernickus@jaair.com) is his E-mail address. Tell Greg I told you about the cheap 89Bs! There really is no good economical way to get an IFR unit, but if you can afford it, the 430 or 480 is probably the best. The installation costs are about the same for any of them unless you want to fight for the non CDI method. Unfortunately, you probably won't find a radio shop that wants to bother. Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8503 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:07:55 AM PST US From: "Dr. Peter Laurence" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Avionics Essential Buss --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dr. Peter Laurence" > > A few things to consider: > > 1. Why do you power your essential bus through a contactor? In the event I agree. The Battery bus should come directly off the battery. And.. Why use a battery contactor at all? A manual battery switch solves this "problem" . One can place the swtich on the firewall and access it with a "key" on a extension through the Panel. After shutsown, remove the key. Hide in the plane or take it with you. Peter Laurence Rv9 A wings ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:07:55 AM PST US From: "Mark R. Supinski" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator terminals --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark R. Supinski" Haven't gotten any feedback from anyone yet. More investigation on my part has turned up some additional info -- here is an auto wiring diagram for the alternator. http://www.rx7.org/jes/images/altsys91.jpg I presume the "B/W" lead corresponds to the "B" lead from the Z diagrams. The remaining L and S remain confusing to me -- obviously I need to use one of them (how to tell them apart on the connector is problem for the future.) Still looking for an insightful someone to stear me in the right direction... Mark Hello all- I'm getting ready to wire my alternator and have discovered that I have no idea how to identify the terminals from the Z draw on the actual alternator itself! This is an 80 Amp Mitsubishi alternator which is the stock unit for a Mazda 13B Rotary engine. A picture of the unit can be seen at: http://www.rx7.org/jes/images/DSCN1193(1024).jpg If someone in-the-know could please take a look & tell me which is which, I would sure appreciate it. Thanks, Mark ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 11:07:55 AM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Latching power relays? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: >How is the latching feature attractive to you? Where would >you use it? Bob: You use it for a master. It is attractive because it uses less power than the inefficient old heavy metal cased relay that gets too hot to touch after a minute. A "latching" relay like suggested is a good alternative, http://www.bluesea.com/dept.asp?d_id=6619&l1=7958&l2=6607 , also as Eric suggested. I hate the idea of a little heat bomb wasting power. George >Subject: Re: Latching power relays? >posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > >>AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jon Goguen >> >> >>I'm wondering if there is any data or experience regarding >>the use of >>modern latching power relays like those made by KG >>Technology or Gruner >>in light aircraft. These seem to have good resistance to >>shock >and vibration. >>> >>Jon >> >How is the latching feature attractive to you? Where would >you use it? > >Bob . . . --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 11:14:34 AM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: Re GPS Indicators: WAS: GPS in Lieu of DME, Was: AeroElectric-List: MD200... --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com In a message dated 11/23/2005 11:17:30 A.M. Central Standard Time, mprather@spro.net writes: Thanks for the suggestion. I would like to be convinced of what you are saying. However, I can't make the costs work out as you say. One more thing! Are you any relation to the Prather who works at the Chicago FAA Regional office? I think he is in the engine side of the engineering office. Seems to be a very decent guy. Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8503 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 11:44:36 AM PST US From: Matt Prather Subject: Re: Re GPS Indicators: WAS: GPS in Lieu of DME, Was: AeroElectric-List: MD200... --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Matt Prather Good Day Bob, We are now on the same page.. Thanks for all of the comments and ideas. Regards, Matt- BobsV35B@aol.com wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com > > >In a message dated 11/23/2005 11:17:30 A.M. Central Standard Time, >mprather@spro.net writes: > >For what I am going to be doing, I don't know if the GNS is $2100-$3300 >better than the KLN... > >The unit will be installed in the bottom of an old C182A panel.. Don't >know if that means I can get away without a separate annunciator.. > >A picture of the panel as it sits: > >http://www.webpak.net/~mprather/Airplanes/IMG_1656.JPG > >The best I could probably do is put the GNS-430 where the KX165 is now, >and move the KX-165 to where the KX-170B is.. > > >Good Morning Matt, > >When you are putting it in place of another VHF NAV radio, the economics >won't work out as well. The 430 is the cheapest way to go when you have NO >other radios in the airplane. > >Unfortunately, even the very best condition KX170B is not worth much used. > >I have installed several Trimble 2000 Approach Plus units doing what you are >suggesting, however, I do the installation myself! > >I also do not use any annunciator at all but I do use a dedicated CDI. MCI >originally priced those at four hundred bucks. When they discovered they were >the only game in town, the price went up to well over a grand. It is still >my opinion that I could get a KLN 89B or a Trimble certificated without a >CDI, but it would take a lot of personal effort and if you have to pay someone >to argue with the FEDs, it probably wouldn't be financially viable. > >Obviously, in order to get it certificated without a CDI, the Panel Control >Unit would have to be in the "normal" pilot scan. > >You might check with J.A. Air Center at DuPage County Airport in the >Suburban Chicago area about the pricing for a KLN 89B. Year before last, they were >selling freshly rebuilt KLN 89Bs at Oshkosh for less than nine hundred bucks! >I don't know if that included the antenna and sleeve, but I know that had a >bunch of them very cheap. > >They do advertise in Trade a Plane and may have an 800 number. Their local >number is 630 584-3200. If you call them, ask for Greg Bernicus. >_gbernickus@jaair.com_ (mailto:gbernickus@jaair.com) is his E-mail address. > >Tell Greg I told you about the cheap 89Bs! > >There really is no good economical way to get an IFR unit, but if you can >afford it, the 430 or 480 is probably the best. The installation costs are >about the same for any of them unless you want to fight for the non CDI method. >Unfortunately, you probably won't find a radio shop that wants to bother. > >Happy Skies, > >Old Bob >AKA >Bob Siegfried >Ancient Aviator >Stearman N3977A >Brookeridge Air Park LL22 >Downers Grove, IL 60516 >630 985-8503 > > > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 11:52:57 AM PST US From: Speedy11@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Velcro vs Ty-Wraps --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Speedy11@aol.com In a message dated 11/23/2005 2:58:12 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, aeroelectric-list-digest@matronics.com writes: Are ty-wraps and lace the only reasonable options for securing wiring? Ernest, You make some good points regarding using velcro or some means other than ty-wraps and lacing. I wonder if someone has already done that and has some flying time on their plane such that they could provide a little feedback on the success or failure of cables secured that way? Do Not Archive Stan Sutterfield ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 12:04:10 PM PST US From: Fiveonepw@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Too-close radio reception --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com Have recently been doing some close formation work- Transmissions from adjacent aircraft are often badly garbled as if the signal into the antenna is overloading the radio- same transmissions sound fine when quarter mile away. Any explanation and possible "fix"? Pehaps some way to reduce power of signal at coax connection on back of radio? Other plane always reports my transmissions as loud&clear. (Microair 760) Have tried changing relative position of plane to compensate for antenna location with no obvious affect. Mark Phillips - Columbia, TN ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 12:07:15 PM PST US From: "Jerry Grimmonpre" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Avionics Essential Buss --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jerry Grimmonpre" I'm planning a manual battery contactor in my RV ... what source do you use for purchase? What do you use for the extension to fit the key to? Thanks ... Jerry Grimmonpre' RV8A > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dr. Peter Laurence" > > >> >> A few things to consider: >> >> 1. Why do you power your essential bus through a contactor? In the event > > I agree. The Battery bus should come directly off the battery. > > And.. Why use a battery contactor at all? A manual battery switch solves > this "problem" . One can place the swtich on the firewall and access it > with > a "key" on a extension through the Panel. After shutsown, remove the key. > Hide in the plane or take it with you. > > Peter Laurence > Rv9 A wings > > > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 12:08:35 PM PST US From: Speedy11@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Velcro vs Ty-Wraps --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Speedy11@aol.com In a message dated 11/23/2005 2:58:12 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, aeroelectric-list-digest@matronics.com writes: http://www.fastenation.com/fasteners.tmpl has a kit that contains more velcro material than you'll ever use for $24.95 True - except that their minimum order is $50. Do Not Archive Stan Sutterfield ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 12:59:08 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Velcro vs Ty-Wraps From: --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: I have been reading on thread of how to bundle stuff without abraision. As far as I read I didn't really see anyone mention Koroseal. I am using both below on Europa build. If one were to in addition read on Ashley book of knots "Look Out"!! Koroseal Lacing Excellent lacing material. Permanently flexible. Resists oxidation, impervious to petroleum products. Holds tension on knots indefinitely. Perfect for holding wire bundles, tubing, etc. Rectangular cross-section 3/32" x 5/32". NYLON LACING TAPES These braided nylon lacing tapes feature a crystalline wax with a high melting point which prevents a waxy feel when using. Meets specification. 085" wide. 500 yd. rolls. MIL-T43435B, Type 1, Size 3, Finish B. Ron Parigoris ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 01:04:17 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Lacing, a lost art? From: --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: I have been reading on thread of how to bundle stuff without abraision. As far as I read I didn't really see anyone mention Koroseal. I am using both below on Europa build. If one were to in addition read on Ashley book of knots "Look Out"!! Koroseal Lacing Excellent lacing material. Permanently flexible. Resists oxidation, impervious to petroleum products. Holds tension on knots indefinitely. Perfect for holding wire bundles, tubing, etc. Rectangular cross-section 3/32" x 5/32". NYLON LACING TAPES These braided nylon lacing tapes feature a crystalline wax with a high melting point which prevents a waxy feel when using. Meets specification. 085" wide. 500 yd. rolls. MIL-T43435B, Type 1, Size 3, Finish B. Ron Parigoris ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 01:04:18 PM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Velcro vs Ty-Wraps --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com In a message dated 11/23/2005 3:01:41 P.M. Central Standard Time, rparigor@SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US writes: As far as I read I didn't really see anyone mention Koroseal. I am using both below on Europa build. If one were to in addition read on Ashley book of knots "Look Out"!! Koroseal Lacing Excellent lacing material. Permanently flexible. Resists oxidation, impervious to petroleum products. Holds tension on knots indefinitely. Perfect for holding wire bundles, tubing, etc. Rectangular cross-section 3/32" x 5/32". I use it and love it! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8503 ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 03:51:50 PM PST US From: "Peter Laurence" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Avionics Essential Buss --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Peter Laurence" Jerry, I haven't gotten to this stage yet. However, Google Auto racing and/or marine stores. As far as the extension. That'll depend on what the key material is. Once in hand, it should not be to difficult to fab. One source is http://www.onlinemarine.com/cgi-local/SoftCart.exe/online_superstore/electri cal/blue_seas_battery_switches.htm?L+scstore+jydj5689fffa20fa+1132790006#900 4eUL%20Listed%202%20Position%20Battery%20Switch%20with%20AFD -----Original Message----- I'm planning a manual battery contactor in my RV ... what source do you use for purchase? What do you use for the extension to fit the key to? Thanks ... Jerry Grimmonpre' RV8A > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dr. Peter Laurence" > > >> >> A few things to consider: >> >> 1. Why do you power your essential bus through a contactor? In the event > > I agree. The Battery bus should come directly off the battery. > > And.. Why use a battery contactor at all? A manual battery switch solves > this "problem" . One can place the swtich on the firewall and access it > with > a "key" on a extension through the Panel. After shutsown, remove the key. > Hide in the plane or take it with you. > > Peter Laurence > Rv9 A wings > > > ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 05:15:21 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Avionics Essential Buss --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 02:06 PM 11/23/2005 -0600, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jerry Grimmonpre" > >I'm planning a manual battery contactor in my RV ... what source do you use >for purchase? What do you use for the extension to fit the key to? >Thanks ... Jerry Grimmonpre' RV8A The only manual battery switches I've seen were (1) manual high current switches located on front side of passenger seat frame when battery was under the passenger's seat and (2) high current battery switches fitted with bell-crank so that pushing-pulling with a Bowden control will operate the switch. For greatest safety, make it PULL-OFF so that a panic disconnect action doesn't buckle the push-wire and fail to operate the switch. Keys are a pain in the arse whether used to control battery or ignition. If someone wants your airplane, key switches are a minor nuisance. Go for the hardened steel chain and padlock on a prop. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Misc/AC_Theft_Protection.jpg I once brought a rental plane home after having lost the keys (The cabin door wasn't locked). I broke the terminals loose from the backs of both mags through the oil filler door. Hand-propped the airplane and flew it home. Didn't need to have the battery master on. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 05:58:33 PM PST US From: "Jerry Grimmonpre" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Avionics Essential Buss --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jerry Grimmonpre" 'lectric Bob ... Check this ... and see if any of these would fit up to an RV for use as battery contactor + field disconnect and would it be prudent to use such a contactor for a dual purpose like this? http://us.binnacle.com/online/dept.asp?dept%5Fid=3040 Thanks for your help Bob ... Jerry Grimmonpre' RV8 ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 06:01:43 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: AeroElectric-List: What We Are Thankful For... --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Matt Dralle Dear Listers, In the United States, Thursday is our National day of Thanksgiving. Many of us will be traveling to be with our families and friends and share in generous feasts of plenty. Many have expressed over the last couple of weeks how thankful they are for the Aviation Lists here on the Matronics servers and for all of the assistance and comradery they have experienced being a part of the Lists. I think one of my favorite comments is when someone says something like, "Its the first thing I do in the morning while I'm having my morning coffee!". That's a wonderful tribute to the purpose and function of these Lists. Its always great to hear I'm not the only one that jumps out of bed each morning to check my List email!! I'm not sure why, but the number of Contributions have been a little low this year compared to years past. Hopefully people are just waiting until the last minute to make their List Support Contribution this year. Won't you take a minute today and show your appreciation for these Lists and for their continued operation and upgrade? Don't make me beg... :-) lol The List Contribution Site is: http://www.matronics.com/contribution Thanks to everyone that already made their Contribution! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft do not archive ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 06:53:54 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Latching power relays? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 10:48 AM 11/23/2005 -0800, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: > > >How is the latching feature attractive to you? Where would > >you use it? > > Bob: > You use it for a master. It is attractive because it uses less >power than the inefficient old heavy . . . These look like the Tyco/Kilovac EV200. Hard telling who exactly makes them but it appears lots of folks are selling them. The Blue Sea data doesn't quote a weight that I saw but the T/K-EV200 is spec'd at 0.95 pounds. An S702-1 (White-Rogers/Stancor) weighs 0.80 pounds so it appears that the T/K-EV200 is about 2.4 ounces HEAVIER than the S702-1. >metal cased relay that gets too hot to touch after a minute. There are lots of things on the airplane that get too hot to touch. If I never have a desire or need to touch them, why is operating temperature a concern as long as it doesn't significantly impact service life or load analysis? >A "latching"(?) relay like suggested is a good alternative, > > http://www.bluesea.com/dept.asp?d_id=6619&l1=7958&l2=6607 > >also as Eric suggested. I hate the idea of a little heat bomb >wasting power. "Wasting power" is a good thing to minimize. But let's carry this to the ultimate exercise. Electronic controlled fuel injection and electronic ignition will produce a much greater improvement in system performance (BTUs burned for miles traversed). Also, going to a water cooled engine will give you another big boost in savings. Increasing all power carrying wires by 3 wire gage steps will "save" more than 12w tossed off in "heavy little heat bombs". Changing from lead-acid to ni-cad will increase charging efficiencies and "save" lots of Joules of energy tossed off in the higher internal impedance of a lead-acid product. One could replace all the power silicon diodes in the alternator with Schottky devices and "save" perhaps 30 or more watts (0.04 H.P.). It's not that the EV-200 style contactor isn't a good product. It all comes down to return on investment. How many dollars and hours is one willing to expend to achieve some design goal? When the water meter is running, one is relatively uninhibited for flushing the toilets and taking long showers. When the water main is broken, then whatever is stored in the toilet tanks and hot water heater is what's available to you for whatever purpose. The modus-operandi is adjusted accordingly. Kansas is dotted with home wind powered generators that are supposed to "save" in some manner. Not one owner I've talked to has ever achieved "break-even" on his investment and he's got numbers on bills to prove it. The real winners were the electric coops who buy locally generated wind power at wholesale with no investment in plant . . . an infinite return on zero investment. I'm having problems understanding where the return on investment comes from by substituting the EV-200 for the older technology . . . unless the design goals have changed. Do you NEED hermetically sealed contacts for some reason? Is the extra 8-10 watts tossed off by the older technology likely to become a consideration in how you operate your airplane either normally or in an alternator out situation? My perception is that tossing off 8 extra watts in an older style contactor simply grates on one's sensibilities and (like picking upholstery cloth and paint schemes) is purely a matter of taste . . . again not a bad thing. But let us be clear as to trade-offs, design goals and reasons for selecting one product in favor of another. The reasons cited thus far are unconvincing. A few more killobux invested in the water cooled engine will produce a demonstrable improvement in operating efficiency and if one keeps the airplane long enough, may even have a positive return on investment. Benefits for investing $100 in an EV-200 are still not so clear. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 08:00:41 PM PST US From: "Steven DiNieri" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Latching power relays? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Steven DiNieri" The literature states that the unit produces 0v counter emf. This may suggest that the quenching diodes may not be necessary. The built in "coil economizer" stated in the lit may be sufficient isolation. Steven dinieri N221rv N231rv -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of 923te Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Latching power relays? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "923te" <923te@cox.net> Hi George, I like the idea of the relay you suggest. Do you know how one would hook up diodes on it? Where is a good place to purchase it? > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: > > Better than a Latching is this device: > > http://relays.tycoelectronics.com/datasheets/ev200.pdf > > 0.13 amp current to hold, > Huge current rating, > 20G shock, > light wt. > > It does not "Latch" it is held with by electromagnetic > > The good part is if power is removed it opens as a safety feature. If you have a > latched master and can't control it with out power I could see a possible > scenarios where this would be bad news. > > George > > > >From: Jon Goguen > >Subject: AeroElectric-List: Latching power relays? > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jon Goguen > > > > > >I'm wondering if there is any data or experience regarding the use of > >modern latching power relays like those made by KG Technology or Gruner > >in light aircraft. These seem to have good resistance to shock and > >vibration. > > > >Jon > > > --------------------------------- > > ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 08:28:37 PM PST US From: "David Carter" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Latching power relays? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Carter" Bob, I'm looking at saving 2 amps here and 2 amps there so I can be full IFR and night, with John Deere PM alternator at about 35 amps. For that reason, I want low power "big relays" and low power LED lights whereever I can install them. I'm not worried about heat or wasted anything - just trying to do the Apollo 13 thing - cut the total amp draw to reduce the load to fit my "not so big" PM alternator. I think maybe others just haven't expressed it this way. If you have a big alternator and excess current, who cares? Unless there might be some issue of reliability of big "standard" relays - again, we can "go theoretical" and worry about reliability when reliability may be just fine with the old "big iron" relays. I wont' go there - just counting amps in my own personal case. David ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Latching power relays? > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > > At 10:48 AM 11/23/2005 -0800, you wrote: > >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: >> >> >How is the latching feature attractive to you? Where would >> >you use it? >> >> Bob: >> You use it for a master. It is attractive because it uses less >>power than the inefficient old heavy . . . > > > These look like the Tyco/Kilovac EV200. Hard telling > who exactly makes them but it appears lots of folks > are selling them. The Blue Sea data doesn't quote a weight > that I saw but the T/K-EV200 is spec'd at 0.95 pounds. > An S702-1 (White-Rogers/Stancor) weighs 0.80 pounds so it > appears that the T/K-EV200 is about 2.4 ounces HEAVIER > than the S702-1. > > >>metal cased relay that gets too hot to touch after a minute. > > There are lots of things on the airplane that get too > hot to touch. If I never have a desire or need to touch them, > why is operating temperature a concern as long as it doesn't > significantly impact service life or load analysis? > >>A "latching"(?) relay like suggested is a good alternative, >> >> http://www.bluesea.com/dept.asp?d_id=6619&l1=7958&l2=6607 >> >>also as Eric suggested. I hate the idea of a little heat bomb >>wasting power. > > > "Wasting power" is a good thing to minimize. But let's carry > this to the ultimate exercise. Electronic controlled fuel > injection and electronic ignition will produce a much greater > improvement in system performance (BTUs burned for miles traversed). > Also, going to a water cooled engine will give you another big > boost in savings. Increasing all power carrying wires by 3 wire > gage steps will "save" more than 12w tossed off in "heavy little > heat bombs". Changing from lead-acid to ni-cad will increase charging > efficiencies and "save" lots of Joules of energy tossed off > in the higher internal impedance of a lead-acid product. One > could replace all the power silicon diodes in the alternator > with Schottky devices and "save" perhaps 30 or more watts > (0.04 H.P.). > > It's not that the EV-200 style contactor isn't a good product. > It all comes down to return on investment. How many dollars and > hours is one willing to expend to achieve some design goal? > > When the water meter is running, one is relatively uninhibited for > flushing the toilets and taking long showers. When the water main > is broken, then whatever is stored in the toilet tanks and hot > water heater is what's available to you for whatever purpose. > The modus-operandi is adjusted accordingly. Kansas is dotted > with home wind powered generators that are supposed to "save" > in some manner. Not one owner I've talked to has ever achieved > "break-even" on his investment and he's got numbers on bills > to prove it. The real winners were the electric coops who > buy locally generated wind power at wholesale with no > investment in plant . . . an infinite return on zero investment. > > I'm having problems understanding where the return > on investment comes from by substituting the EV-200 for the older > technology . . . unless the design goals have changed. Do you > NEED hermetically sealed contacts for some reason? Is the extra > 8-10 watts tossed off by the older technology likely to become > a consideration in how you operate your airplane either normally > or in an alternator out situation? > > My perception is that tossing off 8 extra watts in an older > style contactor simply grates on one's sensibilities and (like > picking upholstery cloth and paint schemes) is purely a matter > of taste . . . again not a bad thing. But let us be clear as > to trade-offs, design goals and reasons for selecting one product > in favor of another. The reasons cited thus far are unconvincing. > A few more killobux invested in the water cooled engine will > produce a demonstrable improvement in operating efficiency and > if one keeps the airplane long enough, may even have a positive return > on investment. Benefits for investing $100 in an EV-200 are still not > so clear. > > > Bob . . . > > > ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 09:42:04 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Avionics Essential Buss --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 07:56 PM 11/23/2005 -0600, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jerry Grimmonpre" > >'lectric Bob ... >Check this ... and see if any of these would fit up to an RV for use as >battery contactor + field disconnect and would it be prudent to use such a >contactor for a dual purpose like this? > >http://us.binnacle.com/online/dept.asp?dept%5Fid=3040 > >Thanks for your help Bob ... What's your design goal? Where do you find the battery control technologies installed in 200,000+ PipBeCesMo for 60 years to be inadequate to your need? The switches you've cited will function as described. The question is what you're wanting to achieve by their use and what are the weight, operational and cost of ownership tradeoffs. It's not whether they will "work" . . . it's a sorting of simple ideas that suggest incorporation of this product will satisfy a goal that the traditional technology cannot. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 09:46:20 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Latching power relays? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 09:26 PM 11/23/2005 -0700, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Carter" > > >Bob, > >I'm looking at saving 2 amps here and 2 amps there so I can be full IFR and >night, with John Deere PM alternator at about 35 amps. > >For that reason, I want low power "big relays" and low power LED lights >whereever I can install them. > >I'm not worried about heat or wasted anything - just trying to do the Apollo >13 thing - cut the total amp draw to reduce the load to fit my "not so big" >PM alternator. > >I think maybe others just haven't expressed it this way. If you have a big >alternator and excess current, who cares? Unless there might be some issue >of reliability of big "standard" relays - again, we can "go theoretical" and >worry about reliability when reliability may be just fine with the old "big >iron" relays. I wont' go there - just counting amps in my own personal >case. > >David Have you accomplished the load analysis so that the decisions can be sized for return on investment? The largest full up IFR load I've calculated to date for a light 14v aircraft was 27 amps. If I took out the S702-1 and put in an EV200, the load would drop to about 26.3 amps. Where else do you expect to "save" on loads and what is your goal? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 11:03:47 PM PST US From: WRBYARS@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: "HAPPY THANKSGIVING" 0.0000@roxy.matronics.com, 1.0000@roxy.matronics.com, -4.4912@roxy.matronics.com --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: WRBYARS@aol.com Thanksgiving 'Twas the night of Thanksgiving ~ But I just couldn't sleep, I tried counting backwards ~ I tried counting sheep ... The leftovers beckoned ~ The dark meat and white, But I fought the temptation ~ With all of my might ... Tossing and turning with anticipation The thought of a snack became infatuation So, I raced to the kitchen, flung open the door And gazed at the fridge, full of goodies galore Gobbled up turkey and buttered potatoes Pickles and carrots, beans and tomatoes I felt myself swelling so plump and so round 'Til all of a sudden, I rose off the ground! I crashed through the ceiling, Floating into the sky With a mouthful of pudding, And a handful of pie But I managed to yell as I soared past the trees (In the T8F of course) Happy eating to all! Pass the cranberries, Please! May your stuffing be tasty, May your turkey be plump May your potatoes' n Gravy, Have nary a lump May your yams be delicious, May your pies take the prize May your thanksgiving dinner stay off your thighs! May your Thanksgiving Be Blessed! "The BYARS FAMILY" 1949 Luscombe T8F N2201B