---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 11/26/05: 19 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:27 AM - Re: high brightness LEDs (Peter Laurence) 2. 04:58 AM - Re: P-Mag Which Bus? (James H Nelson) 3. 07:10 AM - Re: Re: Latching power relays? (Bob how about NO relays?) (Eric M. Jones) 4. 08:02 AM - How does one remove the IR in a Van's 40 amp Alternator? (Tammy Goff) 5. 09:40 AM - The List of Contributors Coming Soon - Make Sure You're Listed! (Matt Dralle) 6. 10:01 AM - Re: high brightness LEDs (Carlos Sa) 7. 10:35 AM - Re: How does one remove the IR in a Van's 40 amp Alternator? (923te) 8. 10:54 AM - Battery Desulfators (Myth, Magic or Science?) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 9. 11:23 AM - Re: high brightness LEDs (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 11:27 AM - Re: How does one remove the IR in a Van's (Charlie Kuss) 11. 11:56 AM - Re: Latching power relays? (Bob how about NO relays?) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 12. 11:57 AM - Re: P-mag Which Bus? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 13. 03:49 PM - Re: How does one remove the IR in a Van's 40 amp (Charlie England) 14. 04:40 PM - Bellanca starter debugging (Russell Williams) 15. 06:01 PM - Re: Garmin 300xl/KI-202 (CardinalNSB@aol.com) 16. 08:38 PM - Radio Panel Ground Buss (Bill Schlatterer) 17. 09:10 PM - Anti-rotation rings for toggle switches ? (Bill Schlatterer) 18. 09:30 PM - Re: Dual Alternator single battery question (Tammy Goff) 19. 09:34 PM - Re: Anti-rotation rings for toggle switches ? () ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:27:45 AM PST US From: "Peter Laurence" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: high brightness LEDs --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Peter Laurence" Carlos, Save yourself a lot of time(grief) and check with Eric Jones at http://www.periheliondesign.com/ He's done the "math" on the design and makes a nice product. Peter RV9A wings Can someone recommend some high brightness LEDs (and a source)? I ordered three or four types from the superbrightleds, but they don't seem that bright ( http://www.superbrightleds.com/index.html ) I'm looking for something like the ones being used in wingtip positioning lights - powerfull, but not in the Luxeon range ($)... Thanks in advance Carlos do not archive --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:58:04 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: P-Mag Which Bus? From: James H Nelson --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: James H Nelson Pete, I am using the P-Mag set up also. You only need power from a source for start up. Once the engine is running, the P-Mag does not need any outside source of power to continue functioning. The E-Mag does need a source. This is why I chose to do dual P-Mags. This mimics the old fashion way of dual "Mags". A really neat way of getting the benefits of truly independent ignition and electronic ignition benefits in the same package. Jim Nelson RV9-A (finishing wiring) ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:10:56 AM PST US From: "Eric M. Jones" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Re: Latching power relays? (Bob how about NO relays?) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com > Bob: >You are right and good point, it does weigh .15 lbs more. ........snip > To be honest since it is not lighter and cost significantly more I >am re-evaluating if I will use it. Actually I may use no relays .......snip George, Right on! The No Relay Solution is possible. 1) The Stancor contactor cannot be used to open the B+ line from the alternator. It's not rated to do that. There is only one reasonable contactor solution that is rated for the job---the Kilovac EV200 or it's rebranded clone(s). 2) The FAA rule to disconnect the battery can be satisfied with a racecar battery switch. Manually disconnecting the battery lead (and reconnecting it) is easy in many aircraft. http://www.flamingriver.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=results/Category_ID=133/home_id=76/mode=cat/cat133.htm 3) Don't use a relay where a switch will do. Many times a relay is invoked to implement a function that a careful selection of switch would do easily. Regards, Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge MA 01550-2705 (508) 764-2072 The despotism of custom is everywhere the standing hindrance to human advancement. --John Stuart Mill ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:02:54 AM PST US From: "Tammy Goff" Subject: AeroElectric-List: How does one remove the IR in a Van's 40 amp Alternator? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tammy Goff" I have searched and found a little info on how to remove the internal regulator on an alternator but still am uncomfortable digging into the alternator to do it. I fear mixing up or not being able to find what is the S, what is the F lead what is the ground from the alternator. I have a Van's 40 amp alternator and will be using the B&C regulator for the Z-12 (dual alternator single battery) set up. Electricity makes me a little nervous with the fear of smoking those rather expensive voltage regulators (or anything else). Does anyone have a "how to" on removing the IR? ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:40:23 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: AeroElectric-List: The List of Contributors Coming Soon - Make Sure You're Listed! --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Matt Dralle Hi Listers, The List of Contributors (LOC) is just around the corner! On December 1st I post a list of everyone that so generously made a Contribution to support the Lists. Its sort of my way of publicly thanking everyone that took a minute to show their appreciation for the Lists. Won't you take a moment and assure that your name is on that List of Contributors? As a number of people have pointed out, the List seems at least, if not a whole lot more, as valuable as a building/flying/recreating tool as a typical your magazine subscription. We won't even talk about a newsstand price... :-) Won't you take minute and assure that your name is on the upcoming LOC? Tell others that you appreciate the Lists. Making a Contribution to support the Lists is fast and easy using your Visa or M/C on the SSL Secure Web Site: http://www.matronics.com/contribution or by popping a personal check in the mail to: Matronics Email Lists c/o Matt Dralle PO Box 347 Livermore CA 94551-0347 I would like to thank everyone that has so generously made a Contribution thus far in this year's List Fund Raiser! Remember that its YOUR support that keeps these Lists going and improving! Don't forget to include a little comment about how the Lists have helped you! I love to feel the love... :-) Best regards, Matt Dralle Email List Administrator Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft do not archive ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:01:22 AM PST US From: Carlos Sa Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: high brightness LEDs --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Carlos Sa That's good advice, I do have Eric's site bookmarked for when I get to that stage. But I'm not trying to make position lights... Cheers Carlos Peter Laurence wrote: --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Peter Laurence" Carlos, Save yourself a lot of time(grief) and check with Eric Jones at http://www.periheliondesign.com/ He's done the "math" on the design and makes a nice product. Peter RV9A wings Can someone recommend some high brightness LEDs (and a source)? I ordered three or four types from the superbrightleds, but they don't seem that bright ( http://www.superbrightleds.com/index.html ) I'm looking for something like the ones being used in wingtip positioning lights - powerfull, but not in the Luxeon range ($)... Thanks in advance Carlos do not archive --------------------------------- --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:35:05 AM PST US From: "923te" <923te@cox.net> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: How does one remove the IR in a Van's 40 amp Alternator? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "923te" <923te@cox.net> Check out this great link on How to convert internally regulated Alternator to external: http://www.miramarcollege.net/programs/avim/faculty/north/alternator/reassembly.htm Best Regards, Ned ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tammy Goff" Subject: AeroElectric-List: How does one remove the IR in a Van's 40 amp Alternator? > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tammy Goff" > > I have searched and found a little info on how to remove the internal regulator on an alternator but still am uncomfortable digging into the alternator to do it. I fear mixing up or not being able to find what is the S, what is the F lead what is the ground from the alternator. I have a Van's 40 amp alternator and will be using the B&C regulator for the Z-12 (dual alternator single battery) set up. Electricity makes me a little nervous with the fear of smoking those rather expensive voltage regulators (or anything else). > Does anyone have a "how to" on removing the IR? > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:54:26 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Battery Desulfators (Myth, Magic or Science?) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Bob, I have a fleet of trucks and I just got this ad from Peterbilt. Fact or fiction? If that link doesn't work because of line wrap, here it is as a tinyurl. Could this be true? What do you think? Great question . . . I've pondered this several times and I've had some informal discussions with numerous folks both battery manufacturers and battery users. Keep in mind that my professional battery experience has been in certified aviation where the users of batteries have little knowledge or decision making activities with respect to the testing or use of their batteries. Aviation focuses narrowly on maintenance history and service protocols shared by few other industries. To date, I've yet to discover any repeatable experiments wherein the use of any of the varied battery desulfation techniques have been shown to have positive return on investment. The idea for some kind of "pulse charging" of batteries has been around in many forms for many years. Variability between all the suggested techniques and applications is strongly indicative of most techniques having little or no value. I recall a local ham radio operator citing phenomenal service life on ordinary flashlight batteries achieved by recharging them with half-wave rectified, unfiltered DC. You couldn't get them to recover with pure DC charging like your car battery, the restoring energy source had to be 60Hz pulsed power. This would have been about 1970. There are dozens of schemes for "rattling" the battery's cage. One of the patented devices simply modulates the charge current over a semi-sinusoidal protocol with a period of seconds. Others claim benefit from shocking sulfate crystals with high frequency energies centered on the frequency of vulnerability for such crystals (Perhaps Capt. Picard got the idea for rotating the modulation frequency of Phazers to penetrate Borg shields by researching centuries old patents for disrupting sulfate crystals in car batteries). I purchased a "desulfator" several years ago just before my father-in-law had a sudden and gross failure of a battery in his car. He gave me the old battery and I attached the de-sulfator along with a 14.4v constant current power supply. After about a week, I cap-checked the battery and found it to have about 4 a.h. of real capacity and about a 150A, 15 second cranking ability. I put it back on the test charge. It drew a much better recovery current than the first test. I tested it again a week later. It produced about 6 a.h. and a 220A cranking effort. Subsequent test cycles yielded only slightly better results . . . certainly a long way from "recovering" the battery back to some serviceable condition. Questions (1) did battery recovery "improve" because the desulfator was present or would I have seen the same results from the gentle charge-discharge cycling sans desulfator? (2) was the battery beyond benefit for any effects the desulfator could offer? The real answers lie in crafting a repeatable experiment that would, no doubt, take a lot of time and resources. I've found several studies on the 'net that purport to answer some of these questions but they're offered as college term papers sold only by subscription. I'm not ready to pop for them yet. My friends at Concord have conducted similar and slightly more extensive tests on several batteries removed from service and could deduce no particular benefit from use of their particular product . . . they too admit to the unscientific nature of their investigation and are not prepared to either support or trash the product. Here are copies of three Google hits on the terms 'battery' and 'desulfator' out of thousands. Most of the hits were for products all of which claim to produce great returns on investment for installing their device on your battery: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Reference_Docs/Battery/Desulfator Note the directory "Patents" where I've posted some examples on earlier work on extra-ordinary battery charging techniques dating back to the 1930's It would be interesting to do the work necessary to provide definitive answers. I just don't have the time, resources or motivation to do it right now. To make an accurate assessment of using such devices on airplanes has a doubtful return on investment . . . we've already deduced that the time and test equipment necessary to wring the last watt-second of performance from a premium battery in airplanes is not as attractive as simply throwing a new cheap battery in at the beginning of each flying season or every annual. Once the OBAM airplane owner embarks on a maintenance protocol to tend, desulfate, and periodically cap check and load check the battery translates into $time$ better spent on maintaining other, more important feature of the airframe. Certified airplane owners are mandated to do some levels of periodic testing and maintenance already so adding some technology like a desulfator to their ground charging scheme would represent little ADDITIONAL cost . . . but without a means for gathering with/without data, the benefits of doing this would be impossible to deduce. However, you as operator of a fleet of terrestrial vehicles MIGHT benefit from an alternative maintenance protocol. With a fleet of trucks there is opportunity to do some scientific studies on the benefits for using some product of choice. This would involve doing periodic maintenance on one group of batteries that enjoyed the use of a desulfator/ maintainer and comparing the performance with a second set of batteries that were periodically tested but operated as in the past. If you're interested in conducting a controlled study and spending the time to gather data, I and others on the List would certainly be available to craft the protocols, analyze data and help craft some form of publication to share with other inquiring minds. For the moment, I can offer no personally acquired knowledge that would help you select a technology or suggest some value for using it. The devices are relatively cheap. They probably do no harm. A simple scientific test would be to fit half your fleet with some attractive device and track battery replacement records . . . through at least two or three change-outs per vehicle. This would take a very long time but would produce useful data that would begin to prove-disprove effectiveness if not return on investment. If you or anyone else becomes aware of published data about tests conducted on such devices, I'd be pleased to know about it. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:23:21 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: high brightness LEDs --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 01:00 PM 11/26/2005 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Carlos Sa > >That's good advice, I do have Eric's site bookmarked for when I get to >that stage. > > But I'm not trying to make position lights... > > Cheers > > Carlos > >Peter Laurence wrote: --> AeroElectric-List >message posted by: "Peter Laurence" I have several projects that use high-brightness leds and I've been buying mostly from overseas suppliers off Ebay. See the following offers as examples. 7566815107 7566048851 7367104186 Out of perhaps a dozen orders, I have only one go astray and that was probably due to Post Office handling. Couldn't get the supplier to replace the order but these things are so cheap that the time it would take to raise a fuss wasn't worth the value of the order ($26). While perhaps higher risk than walking into RS and buying a blister-pak of two whimpy LEDs, this new group of suppliers offers bargains that offset the risks. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:27:00 AM PST US From: Charlie Kuss 40 amp Alternator? Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: How does one remove the IR in a Van's 40 amp Alternator? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss 40 amp Alternator? Ned, This web site shows how to disassemble and reassemble a newer (1990s) larger (60 - 90 amps) ND unit. The 40 amp unit Vans sells is a much smaller and older design. This site might help someone who has at least disassembled an ND alternator before. It won't help the gentleman who requested the info. I've emailed him a copy of an older CONTACT MAGAZINE article. That article deals with the older style ND alternators. Charlie Kuss >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "923te" <923te@cox.net> > >Check out this great link on How to convert internally regulated Alternator >to external: > > >http://www.miramarcollege.net/programs/avim/faculty/north/alternator/reassembly.htm > >Best Regards, >Ned > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Tammy Goff" >To: >Subject: AeroElectric-List: How does one remove the IR in a Van's 40 amp >Alternator? > > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tammy Goff" > > > > > I have searched and found a little info on how to remove the internal >regulator on an alternator but still am uncomfortable digging into the >alternator to do it. I fear mixing up or not being able to find what is the >S, what is the F lead what is the ground from the alternator. I have a >Van's 40 amp alternator and will be using the B&C regulator for the Z-12 >(dual alternator single battery) set up. Electricity makes me a little >nervous with the fear of smoking those rather expensive voltage regulators >(or anything else). > > Does anyone have a "how to" on removing the IR? > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:56:48 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Latching power relays? (Bob how about NO relays?) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 10:14 PM 11/25/2005 -0800, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: > > Bob: > You are right and good point, it does weigh .15 lbs more. > > You also point out the return on investment. I was originally told > when they came out they where about $70 (2x's the price of a > typical relay). They apparently cost more like $120. I understand > you don't understand, but people just want the best, regardless of > the nickels and dimes or logical. There are many other things > people spend money on that cost 6 times more but do the same > thing, but I agree with you here. It does not seem to pay for > itself. > > To be honest since it is not lighter and cost significantly more I > am re-evaluating if I will use it. Actually I may use no relays > (see below). > > As far as power not every one has a large alternator and 25 amps >of avionics. My VFR/Day/Night/IFR lite is less than 10 amps and >nominal 7 amps. With a 40-amp alternator saving 8-10 watts >about 3/4 th AMP, 0.70 amps could be considered significant. > > As far as heat I realize that is not a factor to anything but an > illustration of the electrical energy being wasted and turned into > heat. > > NOW THE QUESTION > WHY HAVE A MASTER RELAY AT ALL? > WHY HAVE A FIREWALL STARTER RELAY AT ALL? > > http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/1554/norelays9sp.jpg > > Run the positive battery cable direct to the starter's own solenoid, > as in a car. For the master BUSS you could now use a little > relay of say 40-80 amp capacity just for cockpit power. Since > the starter current is not going thru a Master/ BAT relay, than all > you need is a little relay. You could even use a solid state relay. > With this wiring there are no large relays/contactors/solenoids > except the one on the starter. This is like a car. That would save > 1.6 lbs several large connections and about 0.80 amps. Also it > would be less expensive. > > What do you think Bob? I know that people don't like the big > wire going to the starter being HOT all the time but is there any > real reason we need a MASTER relay with 500-700 AMP > intermediate capacity. You could always keep the firewall starter > relay so the big starter wire in not hot all the time.. > > Cheers George They are your design goals to set. I choose to apply my talents and reasoning to fitting modern technologies into improved architectures while retaining some past design goals (disconnection of power sources, minimizing hot wires for crash safety, common operability protocols and convenience associated with certified ships, etc.). There are hundreds of airplanes flying with purely automtoive systems installed. No master, no extra relays for any task, lots of always-hot wire including fat-feeders to starters. The probability of having these design features becoming root cause or even exacerbation of an accident is very low compared to other reasons for bending airplanes and breaking people. The airplane I learned to fly in did not have a master contactor. Only a switch in the battery lead under the passenger side seat. Works good, lasts a long time. It didn't have starter contactor either. There was a really fat push-button under the pilot's seat. Also works good and lasts a long time. If you or any other builder finds this attractive and convenient to achieve, I sure wouldn't have any heartburn over it. We've discussed numerous COTS products in the marine and industrial transportation industries that might be applicable to these efforts. If enough builders expressed a desire to incorporate these features, I might even go to the shop and craft a comic book on ways to achieve the task. Bob . . ., ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:57:17 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: P-mag Which Bus? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 12:14 AM 11/26/2005 -0600, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Pete Howell" > > >Hello, > >I am setting up my electric system for P-mags and in the Z-diagrams I see >Bob has them set up on the main bus, but in other cases, the EI is set up on >the battery bus. Understanding they can power themselves, which is the best >Buss to power the P-mags? > >Thanks, Any bus you like. P-mags run independent of ship's power once the engine is running. I would suggest that E-mags run from the battery bus and it wouldn't hurt to run P-mags from that source also. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:49:19 PM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: How does one remove the IR in a Van's 40 amp Alternator? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie England Tammy Goff wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tammy Goff" > >I have searched and found a little info on how to remove the internal regulator on an alternator but still am uncomfortable digging into the alternator to do it. I fear mixing up or not being able to find what is the S, what is the F lead what is the ground from the alternator. I have a Van's 40 amp alternator and will be using the B&C regulator for the Z-12 (dual alternator single battery) set up. Electricity makes me a little nervous with the fear of smoking those rather expensive voltage regulators (or anything else). >Does anyone have a "how to" on removing the IR? > Lots of people do this type of conversion, but I think your misgivings about tearing into the alternator to be valid. I spent many years as an electronics tech (I have the skills), & I have no interest in modifying perfectly good alternators if over-voltage protection can be provided in another fashion (it can be). I worry more about ruining bearings or causing diode/regulator failure due to my installation errors than about the ability of the alternator mfgr to design a reliable product. I'll bet that if you could get reliable data, you'd find that the failure rate of modified alternators is many times higher than that of unmodified alternators, & attributable to errors made in the modifications. Charlie ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 04:40:56 PM PST US From: "Russell Williams" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Bellanca starter debugging --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Russell Williams" I=92m working on debugging weak starting on my Bellanca 14-19-2 Cruisemaster, and am looking for some input & validation of ideas. Here=92s the setup: Continental O-470 engine Lamar 12V permanent magnet starter =96 bench checked by the factory as ok. Concorde RG-35AXC battery =96 1 year old. Cables forward of the firewall that jump to the starter are 2 ga copper, about 1 foot in total length. The battery and master relay are located just forward of the horizontal stabilizer due to W&B. There is a 14=92 run of conductor to get from the master relay to the firewall. The starting behavior has been that when cold, I have to =93bump=94 the starter to get it to go over, usually it takes 3-5 tries before it will finally kick over and rotate freely. When warm, I=92m lucky to get it to turn over at all, usually I get =BD rotation before it hangs up. It is not slippage in the starter adapter, it is the starter motor. Fortunately my engine starts very easy once it is actually turned. Problem #1: The Bellanca designers were =93clever=94 and used a 3/8=94 aluminum rod (covered in a vinyl sleeve for insulation) as the battery conductor up to the firewall. The ends of the rod were smashed flat and a hole drilled in them to make a terminal end. The firewall through-bolt was made of steel. Starting behavior has been progressively getting worse over the years, and a few weeks ago started to cook the rubber booties on the terminal ends of the battery conductor rod, with smell and a wisp of smoke in the cockpit. This prompted a replacement. Solution A: Rip and replace the aluminum rod with 0 ga aircraft wire. Replace the steel firewall through-bolt with a copper threaded-rod conductor and copper nuts. Cold starter turnover showed an improvement, but still not reliable full turnover rotation. Required 1 maybe 2 bumps to get full rotation (cold) going. Problem #2: The jumper from the starter relay to the starter was getting quite warm. Solution B: Replace this cable with 2 ga wire and new terminal ends. The jumper is no longer heating up, and is now measuring 0.06V drop while cranking. Problem #3: Measuring voltage drops on the system with the new cable, I=92m seeing 9.2V at the battery while cranking (13V static) and 7.5V at the starter. The positive side current path that I can measure with short voltmeter leads (battery to master relay, master relay, jumpers from firewall through bolt to starter relay, relay, starter relay to starter) were measuring under 0.2V cumulative drop, and I=92m estimating another 0.35V drop in the 14=92 cable based on a resistance calculation and estimated 250A starter current, for a total of ~0.55V drop. The remaining ~1.2V is in the ground return path. The engine to mount ground is good with negligible voltage drop, but the airframe is apparently high resistance and the airframe tubes (not the jumper cable) closest to the battery gnd connection point are warm to medium-hot. I have tried two different grounding points on the airframe, including jumpering the ground point about 6=92 forward on the airframe, and in all cases the behavior remains the same and the tubes are still getting hot. For diagnosis I=92ve temporarily jumpered the battery ground directly to the starter mounting stud on the engine with about 18=92 of 0 ga copper wire. The starter now reliably turns over when cold, and no wire or terminal heating is present. With the jumper in place I=92m getting 9.2V at the battery and about 8.5V at the starter while cranking. I=92m attributing the discrepancy in system voltage drop vs. the previous measurements and estimate as having over-estimated the current draw of the starter. Assuming about a 200A draw then the math works out given the known resistance of 0 ga wire. I see three solution options: first is the battery =96 low cranking voltage. Second is to put in a second copper wire for the ground side of the circuit, running the battery ground right to the starter to bypass the high resistance steel frame tubes. The third option is to look for a starter with a lower current draw. I don=92t see that there=92s anything I can do about high frame resistance in the tubing. Questions: 9.2V at the battery while cranking seems low, indicating high internal resistance. I don=92t have another RG-35AXC battery for comparison. My battery is relatively new but has had a hard life of very hard starts and deep discharges. Any ideas or measurements on what the battery should be putting out? Does anybody have experience with a geared starter for big bore continentals such as the Sky-Tec C12ST3, which are claimed to have lower current draw and higher torque? The lighter weight would also help offset the weight gain from copper cable vs. the old aluminum conductor. Any ideas and demonstrated experience for dealing with high tubing-frame resistance? Short of trying multiple ground spots searching for the lowest resistance, I can=92t think of any other techniques to fix this especially in-situ. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:01:11 PM PST US From: CardinalNSB@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Garmin 300xl/KI-202 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: CardinalNSB@aol.com In a message dated 11/26/2005 2:58:00 AM Eastern Standard Time, aeroelectric-list-digest@matronics.com writes: Question, does the KI 202 have an "analog resolver", in other words, will it talk to the 300XL to input a desired track or hold radial? _gmcnutt@shaw.ca_ (mailto:gmcnutt@shaw.ca) The KI-202 is shown on the Garmin installation manual Diagram, along with the KI 206, 209A, 525A, KPI 552/b 553 a/b, Collins 331A-90, Bendix 831A, Garmin 102 102A 106A Stec ST 180. Garmin Tech told me the Trinav "C" would also work, but didn't want to talk about ARC cdi's, and an avionics tech told me the MC-60, Collins 350 351, would work and there are some ARC (1048? I bought a 442A and a 443B at a hangar sale cheap, how can I tell if these will work with the Garmin?). I was told my Narco ID824 would not work with the Garmin. Can anyone explain what the "resolver" is? What do I look for physically to idenitfy a resolver? But the Garmin Installation Manual shows the signals going through the "annunciator" first, except in the case of the KI 209A. I don't think the annunciator adds the resolver though. But I welcome any corrections. The Garmins 300xl and 155xl are reasonably priced as "factory remans" (fixed duds) and used, the older GNC300 and 155 non-moving map precursors are I believe also appropriately tso'd for ifr approaches and are less expensive on the used market. I think the newer portables might be more accurate (waas and all) but I don't think they are legal for IFR. It would be nice to identify the cdi's that will work properly, there is some nice looking ARC stuff on ebay pretty cheap, that would make an inexpensive legal ifr gps approach system. One issue regarding the Garmins, some say that a current "database card" is required to be legal, and that verification that the approaches to be used are current is not enough, based on a reading of the installation manual. Since I'm not up and running and not IFR rated yet, that issue has been on the back burner. Any thoughts? Thanks for all your help, Skip ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:38:39 PM PST US From: "Bill Schlatterer" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Radio Panel Ground Buss --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Schlatterer" Bob, at the Wicks seminar earlier this year, you mentioned that you would have a radio/panel ground buss available on your site or from you shortly. Do you have them available yet? Thanks Bill S 7a Ark fuse panel ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:10:48 PM PST US From: "Bill Schlatterer" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Anti-rotation rings for toggle switches ? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Schlatterer" I can't seem to find a source for the little anti-rotation rings that come on a lot of toggle switches. The ones with the tab at the top and a internal tab for the keyway on the top of most toggle switches. They shouldn't be too hard to find since the come on most toggle switches but I can't seem to put a hand on them. I tried Mouser and Digi-Key with no luck. I only need about a dozen. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks Bill S RV7a Ark fuse/panel ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:30:57 PM PST US From: "Tammy Goff" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Dual Alternator single battery question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tammy Goff" Bob, Thank you for your reply. I engaged in a little consultation (meeting on the minds) with my helper. We have come to an understanding and will be proceeding with things wired IAW Z-12. Thank you for the answers. George ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:34:07 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Anti-rotation rings for toggle switches ? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Bill, B&C Specialty Products has them, they just don't list them in there online catalog. You can either call them or order on line. If online, enter a Miscellaneous Part with total then in the Comments Section at Checkout, add the part numbers. I listed all three washers/nuts on the standard switch below. I just received my order of all three types. Perfect match. http://www.bandcspecialty.com/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/cat_display.cgi?6X358218 S700LW - Internal Lockwasher S700KW - Keyway Washer(The one with the notch and tab) S871-5 - Hexnut for switches Good luck Richard Glick Slinger, WI RV7A/Working on Canopy/Panel > > From: "Bill Schlatterer" > Date: 2005/11/27 Sun AM 12:08:13 EST > To: > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Anti-rotation rings for toggle switches ? > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Schlatterer" > > I can't seem to find a source for the little anti-rotation rings that come > on a lot of toggle switches. The ones with the tab at the top and a > internal tab for the keyway on the top of most toggle switches. They > shouldn't be too hard to find since the come on most toggle switches but I > can't seem to put a hand on them. I tried Mouser and Digi-Key with no luck. > I only need about a dozen. > > Any help would be appreciated. > > Thanks Bill S > RV7a Ark fuse/panel > > > > > >