Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:52 AM - Re: Garmin 300XL and Database intentGarmin 300XL and Database intent (Mark & Lisa)
2. 05:47 AM - Re: Re: Should I use shielded wire for power/ground (John Schroeder)
3. 05:54 AM - Re: Do I Need an Ammeter? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 05:54 AM - Re: Electronics International Capacitive Fuel Level Probes P-300C (Mark R Steitle)
5. 07:18 AM - Re: Garmin 300XL and Database intentGarmin 300XL and Datab... (BobsV35B@aol.com)
6. 07:54 AM - Re: Do I Need an Ammeter? (Dan Beadle)
7. 08:28 AM - Required FAA Paperwork (John Markey)
8. 08:39 AM - Re: Electronics International Capacitive Fuel (Richard Tasker)
9. 08:54 AM - Re: Electronics International Capacitive Fuel Level Probes P-300C (Mark R Steitle)
10. 09:00 AM - Z-19 Eng Bat (Mark R. Supinski)
11. 09:11 AM - Re: Do I Need an Ammeter? (Dave Morris \)
12. 09:18 AM - With or without DYNON Internal Backup Battery ? (Michel RIAZUELO)
13. 09:52 AM - Re: With or without DYNON Internal Backup (Gerry Holland)
14. 10:21 AM - Re: Do I Need an Ammeter? (Dan Beadle)
15. 10:23 AM - Re: Do I Need an Ammeter? (Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta))
16. 10:37 AM - capacitive fuel probes in foam filled tanks? (D Wysong)
17. 11:11 AM - Re: Do I Need an Ammeter? (Paul Folbrecht)
18. 11:11 AM - Re: Last "Official" Day To Make Your List Contribution!! (_)
19. 11:11 AM - Re: Do I Need an Ammeter? (Dan Beadle)
20. 11:28 AM - Re: With or without DYNON Internal Backup Battery (Gilles Thesee)
21. 11:48 AM - Re: capacitive fuel probes in foam filled tanks? (Richard Tasker)
22. 11:52 AM - Re: Do I Need an Ammeter? (Paul Folbrecht)
23. 11:57 AM - Re: With or without DYNON Internal Backup Battery ? (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
24. 12:34 PM - Re: capacitive fuel probes in foam filled tanks? (Bruce Gray)
25. 12:54 PM - Re: Alternator terminals (Mark R. Supinski)
26. 01:11 PM - Re: With or without DYNON Internal Backup Battery (Werner Schneider)
27. 01:28 PM - Re: capacitive fuel probes in foam filled tanks? (Richard Tasker)
28. 01:40 PM - Re: capacitive fuel probes in foam filled tanks? (Matt Prather)
29. 02:10 PM - Re: capacitive fuel probes in foam filled tanks? (D Wysong)
30. 02:40 PM - Re: With or without DYNON Internal Backup Battery ? (Kevin Horton)
31. 02:46 PM - Re: With or without DYNON Internal Backup Battery (Gilles Thesee)
32. 02:46 PM - Re: Electronics International Capacitive Fuel Level Probes P-300C (John Schroeder)
33. 03:54 PM - Re: Do I Need an Ammeter? (Carlos Trigo)
34. 03:56 PM - Re: Electronics International Capacitive Fuel (D Wysong)
35. 04:32 PM - Re: Electronics International Capacitive Fuel Level Probes P-300C (John Schroeder)
36. 04:55 PM - Re: Do I Need an Ammeter? (David Lloyd)
37. 05:52 PM - Re: Electronics International Capacitive Fuel (D Wysong)
38. 06:22 PM - Re: Do I Need an Ammeter? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
39. 06:28 PM - Re: Do I Need an Ammeter? (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
40. 06:54 PM - Re: Do I Need an Ammeter? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
41. 07:03 PM - Re: Do I Need an Ammeter? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
42. 07:22 PM - SOS magneto vibrators? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
43. 08:28 PM - Re: SOS magneto vibrators? (Bruce Gray)
44. 10:26 PM - Re: Do I Need an Ammeter? (Dan Beadle)
45. 11:32 PM - Official Usage Guideline [Please Read] [Monthly Posting] (dralle@matronics.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Garmin 300XL and Database intentGarmin 300XL and |
Database intent
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark & Lisa" <marknlisa@hometel.com>
OC,
While I generally agree with the most conservative opinion when it comes to
operations under IFR, I respectfully disagree with your interpretation:
> So it appears to me that you are correct
> if one is following AC20-138, but
> that AC20-138A has a specific limitation
> wording recommendation that the
> ".... database must be installed and
> contain current data." I interpret that
> to mean that all of the data in the
> data base must be current.
My interpretation is if SOME of the data is current, then the database
contains current data and meets the intent of the AC. It's up to me to
determine of the data is current before use. This allows me (and everyone
else in my situation) to continue to use my GX60 following the guidance
contained in the supplement approved when the unit was installed. I've
never received (from the FAA) a notice telling me to change the information
in the FAA-approved supplement, so I believe I'm still legal in using it, as
approved.
> As a practical matter it would be
> very difficult for a pilot flying IFR
> in IMC who was taken off his planned
> route to confirm that all of the data
> points on his new routing were in fact
> accurately portrayed in his out dated
> data base.
Actually data currency is very easily determined in a number of ways. I use
Howie Keefe's Air Chart system. I receive a cycle update every 28 days
listing all the information that's changed since the last cycle. The list
is cumulative; all changes since the first cycle of the year are on the
list. I update my database at the beginning of the update cycle, such that
my database is dated later than the date of the chart system's first update
cycle. Now I know all changed data on the update cards apply to my
database.
Prior to flight, I check all the data I plan to use. By carrying this list
in-flight I can quickly and accurately assess the validity of data I hadn't
planned to use. If data I need for a particular route is out of date, I
simply request a different route, or use the VOR. So far (3 years), I've
never NOT been able to complete a flight due to out-of-date data.
I'm meeting the intent of both the FAA and equipment manufacturer -- and my
own fairly stringent common-sense and safety requirements. And I believe
I'm making Old Bob smile, because this is exactly the result he was shooting
for!
Mark & Lisa Sletten
Legacy FG N828LM
http://www.legacyfgbuilder.com
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Should I use shielded wire for power/ground |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Schroeder" <jschroeder@perigee.net>
Skip -
You got the two most important reason for not using the stuff. If you need
twisted to reduce interference, you can twist wires yourself. If you are
hooking up audio (intercomm) shielded is good, as it is for magnetometers.
Stiffness is really a pain when you are trying to keep wires under control
- especially behind the panel. Stripping and keeping the shielding
relatively intact is also a pain. Bob Nuckolls has a couple of comic books
that deal with various aspects of this problem. Let me know if you can't
find them on his website and I'll send them to you.
My humble experience having just wired an ES - panel and main wiring.
John
On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 22:11:49 EST, <CardinalNSB@aol.com> wrote:
> Other than additional expense (and being less flexible), is there any
> negatives about using shielded cable for power?
> Thank you, Skip Simpson
--
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Do I Need an Ammeter? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 06:12 PM 11/28/2005 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dennis Johnson"
><pinetownd@volcano.net>
>
>Greetings,
>
>I'm building a Lancair Legacy composite airplane, installing a "glass
>cockpit." I'm using the Z-13 "all electric airplane on a budget" wiring
>plan. I'll have a voltmeter, but I'm not planning to install an
>ammeter. I wonder if that's a mistake.
>
>I'll have one battery, a main alternator, and an SD8 aux alternator. Both
>alternators have overvoltage crowbar protection. The main bus has a low
>voltage warning light. I'm not planning to install an ammeter for several
>reasons: additional weight of a shunt, higher parts count, more money,
>and the temptation to do troubleshooting in flight that is better done on
>the ground. No voltmeter means I'll have to test my pitot heat by
>touching it during preflight, but other than that, is an ammeter worth the
>additional complexity, cost, and weight in my robust electrical system?
Here's a thread on the topic that went through the List
sometime back:
>I was planning elaborate diagnostic instrumentation for my Dragonfly, with
>voltmeter test points and ammeters all over the place.
>
>Then I went flying again. While approaching my airport, I realized that if
>something hiccupped, if I saw a wisp of smoke, if a warning light went on,
>I would just not have the bandwidth to start imagining the schematic
>diagram of the electrical system and start flipping switches and taking
>voltmeter readings. I would just want to throw a switch and know that
>there is now a 2 hour countdown to landing in progress or something like
>that. The exact nature of the problem can be best diagnosed on the ground.
Absolutely . . .
>That having been said, I do think it's a good idea to plan ahead for the
>need to diagnose things on the ground and provide/label test points,
>annotate your schematic with voltage references and things like that.
> >Bob,
> >I have to disagree. His cart is not ahead of the horse. He is suggesting
> >that as we build an airplane, we build in the diagnostic equipment
> >necessary to
> >analyse the electrical system. I have to agree with that concept. And your
> >answer indicates you advocate building in diagnostic equipment as well.
> >In your final paragraph, you said doing the diagnostics on the ground
"saves
> >weight, panel space and dollars for carrying around instruments that never
> >help you fly the airplane but provides a ready access to such data for
> >diagnosis
> >when necessary." However, the sensors will be installed whether used on
the
> >ground or in the air, so no weight or money is saved. The sensors can be
> >connected for display on the engine monitor that is already going to be on
> >board,
> >so no weight or savings there.
> >I am one who likes to have as much information as I desire while
> analysing in an airborne situation.
Okay, what are your recommendations for installation of an ammeter?
What current parameter(s) are you interested in and how would you
use them in flight?
> So, I prefer to have the voltage and load at numerous
> >places throughout the electrical system. Perhaps I am so ignorant of
> >electricity that I don't even know what I'm seeing on the readings, but I
> >still want to see them.
I'm mystified by this assertion. I've had flight instructors tell
me that ALL displays on the panel are ESSENTIAL else the very wise folks
who designed and/or regulated the configuration of the airplane
would not have included them on the panel. The same instructors
could not describe how an ammeter or voltmeter was used to enhance
probability of a sweat-free arrival with the earth that was
any more illuminating than having a low voltage warning light
telling me to switch to plan-B or plan-C.
> >So, if that is our desire, rather than trying to convince us that we don't
> >need the information displayed, how about helping us determine the best
> >methods
> >to achieve our goals - that is, display of desired system indications.
> >We aren't necessarily looking for a philosophical disccussion on why an
> >alternator ammeter is better or worse or more useful/less useful than a
> >battery
> >ammeter. We are simply asking how to accomplish what we want to achieve.
> >I don't know how much weight or cost it will add to my project to be
able to
> >monitor the electrons at the alternator, main bus, standby bus, battery
bus,
> >main battery, standby battery, etc. And I don't care - I just want to
> >know how
> >best to do it.
Okay, tell us your goals. I'll suggest that your primary goal
for the day is travel from point A to point B without breaking a
sweat. I'll further suggest that it is of no value to you as
pilot to know exactly WHY an alternator has quit, it's only
useful to know it has quit and that it's time to implement a
pre-planned, very predictable alternative such that sweat-free
arrival is assured. All the voltmeters and ammeters in the world
won't help you out if you don't have pre-planned alternatives.
If you DO have pre-planned alternatives, then the voltmeters and
ammeters are surplus to the mission while airborne.
Once you're on the ground, likelihood that ammeters and voltmeters
as-installed will reveal everything you need to zero in on
root cause of failure is remote . . . there are not enough readings
available from the rudimentary installations of such displays.
You can use an airspeed indicator to fine-tune an approach, how
do you use a voltmeter or ammeter to fine-tune endurance?
Bob . . .
Message 4
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| Subject: | Electronics International Capacitive Fuel Level |
Probes P-300C
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark R Steitle" <mark.steitle@austin.utexas.edu>
Bill,
I have a Blue Mountain EFIS/1. It has two input channels for frequency
inputs. Since the EI probes have their own circuitry that reads the
capacitance and converts the values to a PWM signal, I was able to
connect the probe outputs to the EFIS/1 frequency channels and then
calibrate and I was done. When testing the capacitance fuel probes, be
sure to use gasoline, or diesel fuel as water won't work (ask me how I
know this). I've enclosed a scope shot of the pwm output signal from
the EI probe. If it gets cut, write me and I'll send it to you
directly.
If you don't have a BMA EFIS/1, all's not lost. BMA sells a converter
circuit for the EI probes that converts the signal to 0-5v DC. You can
get contact information at www.bluemountainavionics.com
Mark S.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
bbradburry@allvantage.com
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Electronics International Capacitive Fuel
Level Probes P-300C
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <bbradburry@allvantage.com>
Does anyone know of a maker of an adapter to convert the output of these
capacitive probes to a 0-5V DC output? Or a way to do it?
Thanks,
Bill Bradburry
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Garmin 300XL and Database intentGarmin 300XL and |
Datab...
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com
Good Morning Mark,
I am smiling, but I am also very thankful that OC has pointed out the change
in the FAA guidance material.
I really like your interpretation of the new suggested language!
As I mentioned to OC, it is now time to see what is actually written in the
individual FAA Approved Airplane Flight Manual Supplements that have been
issued since the change to 138 was made.
There is no doubt that there are many individuals within the FAA who do feel
that there should be a currently dated data card in use, but there are still
some who agree that it is the use of current data that the FAA is actually
concerned with.
While I have never had the occasion to use an outdated card, I have always
championed that use as long as a reasonable method was available to determine
the currency of the data in use.
May I ask when your supplement was written and by whom? Also, what is the
date of the installation manual that was used for guidance during the approval
process. Since your aircraft is experimental, I would think that it would
not require an FAA approval, but that you should have a supplement that spells
out the same information as would have been used for the approval of the
supplement in a normally certificated flying machine.
Thank you for providing your insight.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
In a message dated 12/1/2005 6:56:04 A.M. Central Standard Time,
marknlisa@hometel.com writes:
I'm meeting the intent of both the FAA and equipment manufacturer -- and my
own fairly stringent common-sense and safety requirements. And I believe
I'm making Old Bob smile, because this is exactly the result he was shooting
for!
Message 6
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| Subject: | Do I Need an Ammeter? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Beadle" <Dan.Beadle@hq.InclineSoftworks.com>
You bring up a good point about how to interpret the ammeter voltmeter.
Volts show you the present health of the system - but not the endurance.
If you have 14V showing on the meter, you have an alternator running the
system and charging the battery. Fail the alternator and the volts fall
to 12, the basic output of a charged battery. As you continue to fly
with no alternator, the battery will run down. Voltage Lead acid
batteries tend to fall with their charge remaining - but it is not
linear - a half full battery shows more than 6V. And that voltage
depends on how fast you are drawing current out of it - higher loads
lower the voltage. Bottom line, it is very hard to tell the capacity
remaining in the battery based on volts. So the Volt meter is VERY good
at telling if you are on alternator or not. If not, it is not very good
at forecasting how much battery you have left. So on alternator
failure, you must use other means to determine when your radios and
instruments will fall over dead due to lack of juice....
An ammeter is a pretty good alternative, but it requires a little basic
math. I prefer ammeters that show the current into/out of the battery.
These go negative on discharge and positive on charge. My C414 has such
a system. In normal operation, the ammeter shows a small current going
into the battery. This is good - the battery is being recharged. This
current is higher right after start (I have used some energy to start
the airplane - it needs to be returned - recharged - to the battery).
Then it goes down to a low maintenance. Should the alternator(s) fail,
the battery current shows negative. Suppose is shows -50A. I have a 25
Amp Hour battery. That says I should have 25/50 or .5 hours at the
present load. (we conveniently just drop the minus sign - but the .5
hours is to discharge, not charge, accounting for the minus sign) So I
immediately shut down everything I can (heater fan, extra radio, lights
I don't need during daytime, etc....) I cut the load to 10A so I now
have 25/10 or 2.5 hours to get down. I cut that in half for my safety
factor and figure a have a good 1.25 hours to get down.
There are other style ammeter hookups - the total load style. They
always show positive - Piper seemed to like this style and my C414 also
shows information this way - The idea is that it just shows total drain
from the system - but now where it is coming from. This is measured at
the battery master buss - after the recharge point from the regulator.
The value shown can be directly applied in our formula - take the value
- say 20 amps - IF the alternator were to fail now, I would have 25/20
hours left. 1.25. I cut that in half and figure it is time to get down
now. The problem with this style ammeter is that it doesn't tell you
that the alternator has failed. I believe that this configuration
should always be coupled with a voltmeter or some other circuit to tell
that the alternator has failed.
I am a proponent of IDIOT lights for alternator failure. It is easy to
get distracted by other flying duties and miss an alternator failure.
Then, it is hard to figure out where you were when you lost it - did it
just occur (I have a full battery) or did it occur before takeoff (I may
have already used up the battery). Believe me, even with an
annunciator, I have seen people in the C414 simulator take a while to
recognize an alternator failure (or a fire for that matter) when the
work load is dialed up.
Anyway, so much for "Reading those stupid gages"
Hope it helps
Dan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Do I Need an Ammeter?
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 06:12 PM 11/28/2005 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dennis Johnson"
><pinetownd@volcano.net>
>
>Greetings,
>
>I'm building a Lancair Legacy composite airplane, installing a "glass
>cockpit." I'm using the Z-13 "all electric airplane on a budget" wiring
>plan. I'll have a voltmeter, but I'm not planning to install an
>ammeter. I wonder if that's a mistake.
>
>I'll have one battery, a main alternator, and an SD8 aux alternator.
Both
>alternators have overvoltage crowbar protection. The main bus has a
low
>voltage warning light. I'm not planning to install an ammeter for
several
>reasons: additional weight of a shunt, higher parts count, more money,
>and the temptation to do troubleshooting in flight that is better done
on
>the ground. No voltmeter means I'll have to test my pitot heat by
>touching it during preflight, but other than that, is an ammeter worth
the
>additional complexity, cost, and weight in my robust electrical system?
Here's a thread on the topic that went through the List
sometime back:
>I was planning elaborate diagnostic instrumentation for my Dragonfly,
with
>voltmeter test points and ammeters all over the place.
>
>Then I went flying again. While approaching my airport, I realized
that if
>something hiccupped, if I saw a wisp of smoke, if a warning light went
on,
>I would just not have the bandwidth to start imagining the schematic
>diagram of the electrical system and start flipping switches and
taking
>voltmeter readings. I would just want to throw a switch and know that
>there is now a 2 hour countdown to landing in progress or something
like
>that. The exact nature of the problem can be best diagnosed on the
ground.
Absolutely . . .
>That having been said, I do think it's a good idea to plan ahead for
the
>need to diagnose things on the ground and provide/label test points,
>annotate your schematic with voltage references and things like that.
> >Bob,
> >I have to disagree. His cart is not ahead of the horse. He is
suggesting
> >that as we build an airplane, we build in the diagnostic equipment
> >necessary to
> >analyse the electrical system. I have to agree with that concept.
And your
> >answer indicates you advocate building in diagnostic equipment as
well.
> >In your final paragraph, you said doing the diagnostics on the
ground
"saves
> >weight, panel space and dollars for carrying around instruments that
never
> >help you fly the airplane but provides a ready access to such data
for
> >diagnosis
> >when necessary." However, the sensors will be installed whether used
on
the
> >ground or in the air, so no weight or money is saved. The sensors
can be
> >connected for display on the engine monitor that is already going to
be on
> >board,
> >so no weight or savings there.
> >I am one who likes to have as much information as I desire while
> analysing in an airborne situation.
Okay, what are your recommendations for installation of an ammeter?
What current parameter(s) are you interested in and how would you
use them in flight?
> So, I prefer to have the voltage and load at numerous
> >places throughout the electrical system. Perhaps I am so ignorant of
> >electricity that I don't even know what I'm seeing on the readings,
but I
> >still want to see them.
I'm mystified by this assertion. I've had flight instructors tell
me that ALL displays on the panel are ESSENTIAL else the very wise
folks
who designed and/or regulated the configuration of the airplane
would not have included them on the panel. The same instructors
could not describe how an ammeter or voltmeter was used to enhance
probability of a sweat-free arrival with the earth that was
any more illuminating than having a low voltage warning light
telling me to switch to plan-B or plan-C.
> >So, if that is our desire, rather than trying to convince us that we
don't
> >need the information displayed, how about helping us determine the
best
> >methods
> >to achieve our goals - that is, display of desired system
indications.
> >We aren't necessarily looking for a philosophical disccussion on why
an
> >alternator ammeter is better or worse or more useful/less useful
than a
> >battery
> >ammeter. We are simply asking how to accomplish what we want to
achieve.
> >I don't know how much weight or cost it will add to my project to be
able to
> >monitor the electrons at the alternator, main bus, standby bus,
battery
bus,
> >main battery, standby battery, etc. And I don't care - I just want
to
> >know how
> >best to do it.
Okay, tell us your goals. I'll suggest that your primary goal
for the day is travel from point A to point B without breaking a
sweat. I'll further suggest that it is of no value to you as
pilot to know exactly WHY an alternator has quit, it's only
useful to know it has quit and that it's time to implement a
pre-planned, very predictable alternative such that sweat-free
arrival is assured. All the voltmeters and ammeters in the world
won't help you out if you don't have pre-planned alternatives.
If you DO have pre-planned alternatives, then the voltmeters and
ammeters are surplus to the mission while airborne.
Once you're on the ground, likelihood that ammeters and voltmeters
as-installed will reveal everything you need to zero in on
root cause of failure is remote . . . there are not enough readings
available from the rudimentary installations of such displays.
You can use an airspeed indicator to fine-tune an approach, how
do you use a voltmeter or ammeter to fine-tune endurance?
Bob . . .
Message 7
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| Subject: | Required FAA Paperwork |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John Markey <markeypilot@yahoo.com>
Good Folks:
A friend flying a fast Glasair I recently installed a GARMIN 430-series gps.
The plane originally was approved for night IFR. The shop that did the installation
is now closed and they messed up the paperwork to the FAA. I think the foul
up is irrelevant because he doesn't need to file anyway since the plane is
experimental.
MUST he file any additional paperwork with the FAA on this change, or is he "good
to go" given the original signoff for IFR in his operating limits?
Thanks,
John Markey
Glasair IIS N661CC @ VPZ
---------------------------------
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Electronics International Capacitive Fuel |
Level Probes P-300C
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Richard Tasker <retasker@optonline.net>
A capacitance probe installation MUST be calibrated with whatever you
will be using in the tanks! You CANNOT calibrate one with diesel fuel
and expect it to be accurate with gasoline. Presumably what Mark meant
was what I just said, but just to reinforce the concept...
Water has a dielectric constant of 80, gasoline has a dielectric
constant of approximately 2 and diesel approximately 2.2. The
dielectric constant is what controls the signal magnitude from the
probe, so you can see why you cannot use water to calibrate the probe.
Dick Tasker
Mark R Steitle wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark R Steitle" <mark.steitle@austin.utexas.edu>
>
>Bill,
>I have a Blue Mountain EFIS/1. It has two input channels for frequency
>inputs. Since the EI probes have their own circuitry that reads the
>capacitance and converts the values to a PWM signal, I was able to
>connect the probe outputs to the EFIS/1 frequency channels and then
>calibrate and I was done. When testing the capacitance fuel probes, be
>sure to use gasoline, or diesel fuel as water won't work (ask me how I
>know this). I've enclosed a scope shot of the pwm output signal from
>the EI probe. If it gets cut, write me and I'll send it to you
>directly.
>
>If you don't have a BMA EFIS/1, all's not lost. BMA sells a converter
>circuit for the EI probes that converts the signal to 0-5v DC. You can
>get contact information at www.bluemountainavionics.com
>
>Mark S.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
>bbradburry@allvantage.com
>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Electronics International Capacitive Fuel
>Level Probes P-300C
>
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <bbradburry@allvantage.com>
>
>Does anyone know of a maker of an adapter to convert the output of these
>capacitive probes to a 0-5V DC output? Or a way to do it?
>
>Thanks,
>Bill Bradburry
>
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Electronics International Capacitive Fuel Level |
Probes P-300C
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark R Steitle" <mark.steitle@austin.utexas.edu>
Dick,
Thank you for clarifying my last posting. I just meant to say that for
testing purposes, 1) water won't work, and 2) you can get a ballpark
idea using something other than gasoline. Also, you'll need to do a
final calibration, with the fuel you'll be burning, once you have your
system connected.
Mark S.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Richard Tasker
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Electronics International Capacitive
Fuel Level Probes P-300C
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Richard Tasker
<retasker@optonline.net>
A capacitance probe installation MUST be calibrated with whatever you
will be using in the tanks! You CANNOT calibrate one with diesel fuel
and expect it to be accurate with gasoline. Presumably what Mark meant
was what I just said, but just to reinforce the concept...
Water has a dielectric constant of 80, gasoline has a dielectric
constant of approximately 2 and diesel approximately 2.2. The
dielectric constant is what controls the signal magnitude from the
probe, so you can see why you cannot use water to calibrate the probe.
Dick Tasker
Mark R Steitle wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark R Steitle"
<mark.steitle@austin.utexas.edu>
>
>Bill,
>I have a Blue Mountain EFIS/1. It has two input channels for frequency
>inputs. Since the EI probes have their own circuitry that reads the
>capacitance and converts the values to a PWM signal, I was able to
>connect the probe outputs to the EFIS/1 frequency channels and then
>calibrate and I was done. When testing the capacitance fuel probes, be
>sure to use gasoline, or diesel fuel as water won't work (ask me how I
>know this). I've enclosed a scope shot of the pwm output signal from
>the EI probe. If it gets cut, write me and I'll send it to you
>directly.
>
>If you don't have a BMA EFIS/1, all's not lost. BMA sells a converter
>circuit for the EI probes that converts the signal to 0-5v DC. You can
>get contact information at www.bluemountainavionics.com
>
>Mark S.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
>bbradburry@allvantage.com
>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Electronics International Capacitive Fuel
>Level Probes P-300C
>
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <bbradburry@allvantage.com>
>
>Does anyone know of a maker of an adapter to convert the output of
these
>capacitive probes to a 0-5V DC output? Or a way to do it?
>
>Thanks,
>Bill Bradburry
>
>
>
>
Message 10
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark R. Supinski" <mark.supinski@gmail.com>
I am implementing a Z-19 based layout for an all-electric experimental.
One area I am puzzling over is the Eng Bat switch. Specifically, I am not
implementing the Low Voltage Monitor module. Instead, I have an engine
controller which includes this functionality, and also will drive an
external lamp to flash when voltage (or many other issues) fall below a
preset value. Thus I will drive the lamp found in Z-19 from this device.
My question is: what is the point of the ON vs. AUTO setting in my case?
Looking at the schematic, it seems the only function performed in the AUTO
case is to activate the low voltage monitor?? I believe that in my case I
only need a simple on/off switch to ground the contactor -- I cannot see
what AUTO does for me in addition to this.
Am I correct, or am I missing something essential here?
Mark Supinski
Message 11
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| Subject: | Do I Need an Ammeter? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" <BigD@DaveMorris.com>
The 25AH battery is probably rated 25A at 10 hours. That means it will
only put out 2.5A for 10 hours, but you can't say it will put out 50A for a
half hour unless you've verified that with the discharge graph for that
specific battery. My Panasonic LC-RD1217P is a 17AH battery that puts out
1.7A for 10 hours, but at 17A, the graph shows that it will already be dead
after a little over 30 minutes, not the full hour one might expect.
Safer would be for a single "Plan B switch" to shut down a specific group
of non-essential equipment, leaving only those loads whose currents you
have already computed or measured beforehand, so that you know exactly how
many minutes of flight time you have remaining based on a calculation you
did on the ground. Even better would be to have already measured your
battery life under that load in real time on the ground, not relying on
charts and graphs from the manufacturer.
In my case, I would have done a load test to verify that my 17AH battery
can source about 5A for 2 hours (as shown in the graph), enough to get me
on the ground. And then I make sure my total loads required to fly off
that 2 hours do not exceed 5A. And then I test the battery every year to
make sure the 5A for 2 hours still holds.
Then the only thing you need an ammeter for is to verify that you aren't
drawing more than 5A for some reason, after you flip the "Plan B Switch".
Dave Morris
At 09:53 AM 12/1/2005, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Beadle"
><Dan.Beadle@hq.InclineSoftworks.com>
>Suppose is shows -50A. I have a 25
>Amp Hour battery. That says I should have 25/50 or .5 hours at the
>present load. (we conveniently just drop the minus sign - but the .5
>hours is to discharge, not charge, accounting for the minus sign) So I
>immediately shut down everything I can (heater fan, extra radio, lights
>I don't need during daytime, etc....) I cut the load to 10A so I now
>have 25/10 or 2.5 hours to get down. I cut that in half for my safety
>factor and figure a have a good 1.25 hours to get down.
Message 12
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| Subject: | With or without DYNON Internal Backup Battery ? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Michel RIAZUELO <mt.riazuelo@wanadoo.fr>
Hi Bob and all,
I have been flying with my ROTAX 912 powered MCR SPORTSTER since June
2004 (250 h) and after every fly I thank Aeroelectric ....!
My electrical system is Z16 figure based (of course), I have a 2 hours
electrical range and the battery will be replaced next June !
I plan to install a DYNON D10A and analyse the Internal Backup Battery
option.
I think I do not need it.
Advices are welcome.
Cheers,
Michel RIAZUELO
Message 13
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Battery ?
| Subject: | Re: With or without DYNON Internal Backup |
Battery ?
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gerry Holland <gholland@gemini-resourcing.com>
Bonjour Michel from L'Angleterre
> I plan to install a DYNON D10A and analyse the Internal Backup Battery
> option. I think I do not need it.
For the additional $120+ for that option I think it would be a good idea.
My reason. The Backup takes over instantly on Main Bus failure only
requiring acknowledgement with 30 seconds to continue to run on back up
Lithium Battery.
The failure of the main electrics could be a traumatic or distracting event.
The Dynon resilience is automatic and could give a vital few seconds to come
to terms with a problem.
I have the D10 with Battery in my Europa with Rotax 912.
IMHO
Salutations Cordiale
Gerry Holland
G-FIZY
Message 14
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| Subject: | Do I Need an Ammeter? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Beadle" <Dan.Beadle@hq.InclineSoftworks.com>
I agree with you 100%. The battery discharge curves are not linear.
However, the first poster seemed to have little understanding of the
basic use of the ammeter. Getting an understanding with a linear model
is the first step. Then you understand the non-linear discharge. (That
is why I divide the capacity by two - accounts for the non-linear
discharge). And, as you point out, you always want to load shed. A
"Critical Buss" is a great way to go to plan B.
But... for understanding anything, understand the basics, then
understand the subtleties.
I still would have the ammeter - it is a great diagnostic tool - Why did
the alternator fail (overloaded?) Is the critical bus really only
drawing 5 amps? Etc. Takes a lot of stress out of a stressful
situation.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave
Morris "BigD"
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Do I Need an Ammeter?
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Morris \"BigD\""
<BigD@DaveMorris.com>
The 25AH battery is probably rated 25A at 10 hours. That means it will
only put out 2.5A for 10 hours, but you can't say it will put out 50A
for a
half hour unless you've verified that with the discharge graph for that
specific battery. My Panasonic LC-RD1217P is a 17AH battery that puts
out
1.7A for 10 hours, but at 17A, the graph shows that it will already be
dead
after a little over 30 minutes, not the full hour one might expect.
Safer would be for a single "Plan B switch" to shut down a specific
group
of non-essential equipment, leaving only those loads whose currents you
have already computed or measured beforehand, so that you know exactly
how
many minutes of flight time you have remaining based on a calculation
you
did on the ground. Even better would be to have already measured your
battery life under that load in real time on the ground, not relying on
charts and graphs from the manufacturer.
In my case, I would have done a load test to verify that my 17AH battery
can source about 5A for 2 hours (as shown in the graph), enough to get
me
on the ground. And then I make sure my total loads required to fly off
that 2 hours do not exceed 5A. And then I test the battery every year to
make sure the 5A for 2 hours still holds.
Then the only thing you need an ammeter for is to verify that you aren't
drawing more than 5A for some reason, after you flip the "Plan B
Switch".
Dave Morris
At 09:53 AM 12/1/2005, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Beadle"
><Dan.Beadle@hq.InclineSoftworks.com>
>Suppose is shows -50A. I have a 25
>Amp Hour battery. That says I should have 25/50 or .5 hours at the
>present load. (we conveniently just drop the minus sign - but the .5
>hours is to discharge, not charge, accounting for the minus sign) So I
>immediately shut down everything I can (heater fan, extra radio, lights
>I don't need during daytime, etc....) I cut the load to 10A so I now
>have 25/10 or 2.5 hours to get down. I cut that in half for my safety
>factor and figure a have a good 1.25 hours to get down.
Message 15
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| Subject: | Do I Need an Ammeter? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" <mstewart@iss.net>
I find my amp meter(In my case an amp indication of electrons being
replaced in the battery) to be an excellent reflection of what IS
working. One recent event was I turned on my nav lights and nothing
changed on the meter. I cant see them from the cockpit and was in night
ops. Shut down, change a fuse, and away I went. (don't know why it was
blown. I suspect it was under fused with a 4 amp fuse.)
Also in more critical situations, like IMC with potential icing, I like
to see that when I put the Pitot Heat on, then the amp meter goes up
appropriately. Otherwise I would never know if it is in fact working.
Frankly, given the choice, Id take amps over volts as long as I had an
alarm, which I do, that tells me when my amps are too low or too high.
Just my 2 cents.
Mike
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan
Beadle
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Do I Need an Ammeter?
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Beadle"
<Dan.Beadle@hq.InclineSoftworks.com>
You bring up a good point about how to interpret the ammeter voltmeter.
Volts show you the present health of the system - but not the endurance.
If you have 14V showing on the meter, you have an alternator running the
system and charging the battery. Fail the alternator and the volts fall
to 12, the basic output of a charged battery. As you continue to fly
with no alternator, the battery will run down. Voltage Lead acid
batteries tend to fall with their charge remaining - but it is not
linear - a half full battery shows more than 6V. And that voltage
depends on how fast you are drawing current out of it - higher loads
lower the voltage. Bottom line, it is very hard to tell the capacity
remaining in the battery based on volts. So the Volt meter is VERY good
at telling if you are on alternator or not. If not, it is not very good
at forecasting how much battery you have left. So on alternator
failure, you must use other means to determine when your radios and
instruments will fall over dead due to lack of juice....
An ammeter is a pretty good alternative, but it requires a little basic
math. I prefer ammeters that show the current into/out of the battery.
These go negative on discharge and positive on charge. My C414 has such
a system. In normal operation, the ammeter shows a small current going
into the battery. This is good - the battery is being recharged. This
current is higher right after start (I have used some energy to start
the airplane - it needs to be returned - recharged - to the battery).
Then it goes down to a low maintenance. Should the alternator(s) fail,
the battery current shows negative. Suppose is shows -50A. I have a 25
Amp Hour battery. That says I should have 25/50 or .5 hours at the
present load. (we conveniently just drop the minus sign - but the .5
hours is to discharge, not charge, accounting for the minus sign) So I
immediately shut down everything I can (heater fan, extra radio, lights
I don't need during daytime, etc....) I cut the load to 10A so I now
have 25/10 or 2.5 hours to get down. I cut that in half for my safety
factor and figure a have a good 1.25 hours to get down.
There are other style ammeter hookups - the total load style. They
always show positive - Piper seemed to like this style and my C414 also
shows information this way - The idea is that it just shows total drain
from the system - but now where it is coming from. This is measured at
the battery master buss - after the recharge point from the regulator.
The value shown can be directly applied in our formula - take the value
- say 20 amps - IF the alternator were to fail now, I would have 25/20
hours left. 1.25. I cut that in half and figure it is time to get down
now. The problem with this style ammeter is that it doesn't tell you
that the alternator has failed. I believe that this configuration
should always be coupled with a voltmeter or some other circuit to tell
that the alternator has failed.
I am a proponent of IDIOT lights for alternator failure. It is easy to
get distracted by other flying duties and miss an alternator failure.
Then, it is hard to figure out where you were when you lost it - did it
just occur (I have a full battery) or did it occur before takeoff (I may
have already used up the battery). Believe me, even with an
annunciator, I have seen people in the C414 simulator take a while to
recognize an alternator failure (or a fire for that matter) when the
work load is dialed up.
Anyway, so much for "Reading those stupid gages"
Hope it helps
Dan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Do I Need an Ammeter?
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 06:12 PM 11/28/2005 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dennis Johnson"
><pinetownd@volcano.net>
>
>Greetings,
>
>I'm building a Lancair Legacy composite airplane, installing a "glass
>cockpit." I'm using the Z-13 "all electric airplane on a budget" wiring
>plan. I'll have a voltmeter, but I'm not planning to install an
>ammeter. I wonder if that's a mistake.
>
>I'll have one battery, a main alternator, and an SD8 aux alternator.
Both
>alternators have overvoltage crowbar protection. The main bus has a
low
>voltage warning light. I'm not planning to install an ammeter for
several
>reasons: additional weight of a shunt, higher parts count, more money,
>and the temptation to do troubleshooting in flight that is better done
on
>the ground. No voltmeter means I'll have to test my pitot heat by
>touching it during preflight, but other than that, is an ammeter worth
the
>additional complexity, cost, and weight in my robust electrical system?
Here's a thread on the topic that went through the List
sometime back:
>I was planning elaborate diagnostic instrumentation for my Dragonfly,
with
>voltmeter test points and ammeters all over the place.
>
>Then I went flying again. While approaching my airport, I realized
that if
>something hiccupped, if I saw a wisp of smoke, if a warning light went
on,
>I would just not have the bandwidth to start imagining the schematic
>diagram of the electrical system and start flipping switches and
taking
>voltmeter readings. I would just want to throw a switch and know that
>there is now a 2 hour countdown to landing in progress or something
like
>that. The exact nature of the problem can be best diagnosed on the
ground.
Absolutely . . .
>That having been said, I do think it's a good idea to plan ahead for
the
>need to diagnose things on the ground and provide/label test points,
>annotate your schematic with voltage references and things like that.
> >Bob,
> >I have to disagree. His cart is not ahead of the horse. He is
suggesting
> >that as we build an airplane, we build in the diagnostic equipment
> >necessary to
> >analyse the electrical system. I have to agree with that concept.
And your
> >answer indicates you advocate building in diagnostic equipment as
well.
> >In your final paragraph, you said doing the diagnostics on the
ground
"saves
> >weight, panel space and dollars for carrying around instruments that
never
> >help you fly the airplane but provides a ready access to such data
for
> >diagnosis
> >when necessary." However, the sensors will be installed whether used
on
the
> >ground or in the air, so no weight or money is saved. The sensors
can be
> >connected for display on the engine monitor that is already going to
be on
> >board,
> >so no weight or savings there.
> >I am one who likes to have as much information as I desire while
> analysing in an airborne situation.
Okay, what are your recommendations for installation of an ammeter?
What current parameter(s) are you interested in and how would you
use them in flight?
> So, I prefer to have the voltage and load at numerous
> >places throughout the electrical system. Perhaps I am so ignorant of
> >electricity that I don't even know what I'm seeing on the readings,
but I
> >still want to see them.
I'm mystified by this assertion. I've had flight instructors tell
me that ALL displays on the panel are ESSENTIAL else the very wise
folks
who designed and/or regulated the configuration of the airplane
would not have included them on the panel. The same instructors
could not describe how an ammeter or voltmeter was used to enhance
probability of a sweat-free arrival with the earth that was
any more illuminating than having a low voltage warning light
telling me to switch to plan-B or plan-C.
> >So, if that is our desire, rather than trying to convince us that we
don't
> >need the information displayed, how about helping us determine the
best
> >methods
> >to achieve our goals - that is, display of desired system
indications.
> >We aren't necessarily looking for a philosophical disccussion on why
an
> >alternator ammeter is better or worse or more useful/less useful
than a
> >battery
> >ammeter. We are simply asking how to accomplish what we want to
achieve.
> >I don't know how much weight or cost it will add to my project to be
able to
> >monitor the electrons at the alternator, main bus, standby bus,
battery
bus,
> >main battery, standby battery, etc. And I don't care - I just want
to
> >know how
> >best to do it.
Okay, tell us your goals. I'll suggest that your primary goal
for the day is travel from point A to point B without breaking a
sweat. I'll further suggest that it is of no value to you as
pilot to know exactly WHY an alternator has quit, it's only
useful to know it has quit and that it's time to implement a
pre-planned, very predictable alternative such that sweat-free
arrival is assured. All the voltmeters and ammeters in the world
won't help you out if you don't have pre-planned alternatives.
If you DO have pre-planned alternatives, then the voltmeters and
ammeters are surplus to the mission while airborne.
Once you're on the ground, likelihood that ammeters and voltmeters
as-installed will reveal everything you need to zero in on
root cause of failure is remote . . . there are not enough readings
available from the rudimentary installations of such displays.
You can use an airspeed indicator to fine-tune an approach, how
do you use a voltmeter or ammeter to fine-tune endurance?
Bob . . .
Message 16
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| Subject: | capacitive fuel probes in foam filled tanks? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: D Wysong <hdwysong@gmail.com>
We're installing capacitive level probes into a semi-rigid fuel bladder
that is filled with sections of coarse 'anti-explosion' foam (like the
stuff used in racing tanks).
We've been told by one outfit that we have to cut a tunnel through the
foam for the probe because any contact with the foam will render the
probe inop. True?
I assumed the center rod and outer tube of the probe acted as capacitor
'plates' and that the fuel was the dielectric. Fuel level INSIDE the
probe (between the center rod and outer tube) changes, capacitance
changes. I don't understand how the foam comes into play.
I plan on testing it out in the shop just for kicks... but I figured I'd
ask before I start pouring gasoline on things.
Thanks for any insight!
D
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Do I Need an Ammeter? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Paul Folbrecht <pfolbrecht@starkinvestments.com>
That's no problem. I'm just relieved there's no issue.
Dan Beadle wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Beadle" <Dan.Beadle@hq.InclineSoftworks.com>
>
>I agree with you 100%. The battery discharge curves are not linear.
>However, the first poster seemed to have little understanding of the
>basic use of the ammeter. Getting an understanding with a linear model
>is the first step. Then you understand the non-linear discharge. (That
>is why I divide the capacity by two - accounts for the non-linear
>discharge). And, as you point out, you always want to load shed. A
>"Critical Buss" is a great way to go to plan B.
>
>But... for understanding anything, understand the basics, then
>understand the subtleties.
>
>I still would have the ammeter - it is a great diagnostic tool - Why did
>the alternator fail (overloaded?) Is the critical bus really only
>drawing 5 amps? Etc. Takes a lot of stress out of a stressful
>situation.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave
>Morris "BigD"
>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Do I Need an Ammeter?
>
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Morris \"BigD\""
><BigD@DaveMorris.com>
>
>The 25AH battery is probably rated 25A at 10 hours. That means it will
>only put out 2.5A for 10 hours, but you can't say it will put out 50A
>for a
>half hour unless you've verified that with the discharge graph for that
>specific battery. My Panasonic LC-RD1217P is a 17AH battery that puts
>out
>1.7A for 10 hours, but at 17A, the graph shows that it will already be
>dead
>after a little over 30 minutes, not the full hour one might expect.
>
>Safer would be for a single "Plan B switch" to shut down a specific
>group
>of non-essential equipment, leaving only those loads whose currents you
>have already computed or measured beforehand, so that you know exactly
>how
>many minutes of flight time you have remaining based on a calculation
>you
>did on the ground. Even better would be to have already measured your
>battery life under that load in real time on the ground, not relying on
>charts and graphs from the manufacturer.
>
>In my case, I would have done a load test to verify that my 17AH battery
>
>can source about 5A for 2 hours (as shown in the graph), enough to get
>me
>on the ground. And then I make sure my total loads required to fly off
>that 2 hours do not exceed 5A. And then I test the battery every year to
>
>make sure the 5A for 2 hours still holds.
>
>Then the only thing you need an ammeter for is to verify that you aren't
>
>drawing more than 5A for some reason, after you flip the "Plan B
>Switch".
>
>Dave Morris
>
>
>At 09:53 AM 12/1/2005, you wrote:
>
>
>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Beadle"
>><Dan.Beadle@hq.InclineSoftworks.com>
>>Suppose is shows -50A. I have a 25
>>Amp Hour battery. That says I should have 25/50 or .5 hours at the
>>present load. (we conveniently just drop the minus sign - but the .5
>>hours is to discharge, not charge, accounting for the minus sign) So I
>>immediately shut down everything I can (heater fan, extra radio, lights
>>I don't need during daytime, etc....) I cut the load to 10A so I now
>>have 25/10 or 2.5 hours to get down. I cut that in half for my safety
>>factor and figure a have a good 1.25 hours to get down.
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Last "Official" Day To Make Your List Contribution!! |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "_" <raymondj@frontiernet.net>
Matt,
I chose the archive disk when I contributed. I was thinking it might
save you some money if downloading the disk was an option, rather than you
mailing them.
Thanks again for your work on the lists.
Raymond Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Dralle" <dralle@matronics.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Last "Official" Day To Make Your List
Contribution!!
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Matt Dralle
<dralle@matronics.com>
>
>
> Dear Listers,
>
> Well, its November 30th and that means three things...
>
> 1) Today I am officially 42 years old (sympathy is appreciated)!
>
> 2) It marks that last "official" day of the List Fund Raiser!
>
> 3) Its the last day I will be bugging everyone for a whole year!
:-)
>
> If you use the Lists and enjoy the content and the no-advertising,
> no-spam, and no-censorship way in which they're run, please make a
> Contribution today to support their continued operation and
> upkeep. Your $20 or $30 goes a long way to further the List
> operation and keep the bills paid.
>
> A Lister wrote a funny message in the comments field of his
> Contribution that I thought summed things up pretty well:
>
> "Worth every penny and I'm a tightwad!"
>
> Thank you to everyone that has made a Contribution so far this
> year! It is greatly appreciated.
>
> Contributions: http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
> Best regards,
>
> Matt Dralle
> List Administrator
>
>
> Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
> 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email
> http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
> do not archive
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Do I Need an Ammeter? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Beadle" <Dan.Beadle@hq.InclineSoftworks.com>
Actually, what you describe is not electrons being replaced in the
battery - that is at a different place in the circuit. That type
ammeter only tells you that the battery is taking charge. It would not
change if you switched on a load - like pitot heat.
The ammeter you are describing measures total alt output or total buss
current - that is an indication of what you have on.
And yes, I like to see that the amps jump up a little when I switch on
the pitot heat. How else do I know that it is still working as I enter
the clouds (checked on ground, but ammeter jump is a sure sign it is
working)
Dan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Do I Need an Ammeter?
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS
Atlanta)" <mstewart@iss.net>
I find my amp meter(In my case an amp indication of electrons being
replaced in the battery) to be an excellent reflection of what IS
working. One recent event was I turned on my nav lights and nothing
changed on the meter. I cant see them from the cockpit and was in night
ops. Shut down, change a fuse, and away I went. (don't know why it was
blown. I suspect it was under fused with a 4 amp fuse.)
Also in more critical situations, like IMC with potential icing, I like
to see that when I put the Pitot Heat on, then the amp meter goes up
appropriately. Otherwise I would never know if it is in fact working.
Frankly, given the choice, Id take amps over volts as long as I had an
alarm, which I do, that tells me when my amps are too low or too high.
Just my 2 cents.
Mike
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan
Beadle
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Do I Need an Ammeter?
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Beadle"
<Dan.Beadle@hq.InclineSoftworks.com>
You bring up a good point about how to interpret the ammeter voltmeter.
Volts show you the present health of the system - but not the endurance.
If you have 14V showing on the meter, you have an alternator running the
system and charging the battery. Fail the alternator and the volts fall
to 12, the basic output of a charged battery. As you continue to fly
with no alternator, the battery will run down. Voltage Lead acid
batteries tend to fall with their charge remaining - but it is not
linear - a half full battery shows more than 6V. And that voltage
depends on how fast you are drawing current out of it - higher loads
lower the voltage. Bottom line, it is very hard to tell the capacity
remaining in the battery based on volts. So the Volt meter is VERY good
at telling if you are on alternator or not. If not, it is not very good
at forecasting how much battery you have left. So on alternator
failure, you must use other means to determine when your radios and
instruments will fall over dead due to lack of juice....
An ammeter is a pretty good alternative, but it requires a little basic
math. I prefer ammeters that show the current into/out of the battery.
These go negative on discharge and positive on charge. My C414 has such
a system. In normal operation, the ammeter shows a small current going
into the battery. This is good - the battery is being recharged. This
current is higher right after start (I have used some energy to start
the airplane - it needs to be returned - recharged - to the battery).
Then it goes down to a low maintenance. Should the alternator(s) fail,
the battery current shows negative. Suppose is shows -50A. I have a 25
Amp Hour battery. That says I should have 25/50 or .5 hours at the
present load. (we conveniently just drop the minus sign - but the .5
hours is to discharge, not charge, accounting for the minus sign) So I
immediately shut down everything I can (heater fan, extra radio, lights
I don't need during daytime, etc....) I cut the load to 10A so I now
have 25/10 or 2.5 hours to get down. I cut that in half for my safety
factor and figure a have a good 1.25 hours to get down.
There are other style ammeter hookups - the total load style. They
always show positive - Piper seemed to like this style and my C414 also
shows information this way - The idea is that it just shows total drain
from the system - but now where it is coming from. This is measured at
the battery master buss - after the recharge point from the regulator.
The value shown can be directly applied in our formula - take the value
- say 20 amps - IF the alternator were to fail now, I would have 25/20
hours left. 1.25. I cut that in half and figure it is time to get down
now. The problem with this style ammeter is that it doesn't tell you
that the alternator has failed. I believe that this configuration
should always be coupled with a voltmeter or some other circuit to tell
that the alternator has failed.
I am a proponent of IDIOT lights for alternator failure. It is easy to
get distracted by other flying duties and miss an alternator failure.
Then, it is hard to figure out where you were when you lost it - did it
just occur (I have a full battery) or did it occur before takeoff (I may
have already used up the battery). Believe me, even with an
annunciator, I have seen people in the C414 simulator take a while to
recognize an alternator failure (or a fire for that matter) when the
work load is dialed up.
Anyway, so much for "Reading those stupid gages"
Hope it helps
Dan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Do I Need an Ammeter?
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 06:12 PM 11/28/2005 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dennis Johnson"
><pinetownd@volcano.net>
>
>Greetings,
>
>I'm building a Lancair Legacy composite airplane, installing a "glass
>cockpit." I'm using the Z-13 "all electric airplane on a budget" wiring
>plan. I'll have a voltmeter, but I'm not planning to install an
>ammeter. I wonder if that's a mistake.
>
>I'll have one battery, a main alternator, and an SD8 aux alternator.
Both
>alternators have overvoltage crowbar protection. The main bus has a
low
>voltage warning light. I'm not planning to install an ammeter for
several
>reasons: additional weight of a shunt, higher parts count, more money,
>and the temptation to do troubleshooting in flight that is better done
on
>the ground. No voltmeter means I'll have to test my pitot heat by
>touching it during preflight, but other than that, is an ammeter worth
the
>additional complexity, cost, and weight in my robust electrical system?
Here's a thread on the topic that went through the List
sometime back:
>I was planning elaborate diagnostic instrumentation for my Dragonfly,
with
>voltmeter test points and ammeters all over the place.
>
>Then I went flying again. While approaching my airport, I realized
that if
>something hiccupped, if I saw a wisp of smoke, if a warning light went
on,
>I would just not have the bandwidth to start imagining the schematic
>diagram of the electrical system and start flipping switches and
taking
>voltmeter readings. I would just want to throw a switch and know that
>there is now a 2 hour countdown to landing in progress or something
like
>that. The exact nature of the problem can be best diagnosed on the
ground.
Absolutely . . .
>That having been said, I do think it's a good idea to plan ahead for
the
>need to diagnose things on the ground and provide/label test points,
>annotate your schematic with voltage references and things like that.
> >Bob,
> >I have to disagree. His cart is not ahead of the horse. He is
suggesting
> >that as we build an airplane, we build in the diagnostic equipment
> >necessary to
> >analyse the electrical system. I have to agree with that concept.
And your
> >answer indicates you advocate building in diagnostic equipment as
well.
> >In your final paragraph, you said doing the diagnostics on the
ground
"saves
> >weight, panel space and dollars for carrying around instruments that
never
> >help you fly the airplane but provides a ready access to such data
for
> >diagnosis
> >when necessary." However, the sensors will be installed whether used
on
the
> >ground or in the air, so no weight or money is saved. The sensors
can be
> >connected for display on the engine monitor that is already going to
be on
> >board,
> >so no weight or savings there.
> >I am one who likes to have as much information as I desire while
> analysing in an airborne situation.
Okay, what are your recommendations for installation of an ammeter?
What current parameter(s) are you interested in and how would you
use them in flight?
> So, I prefer to have the voltage and load at numerous
> >places throughout the electrical system. Perhaps I am so ignorant of
> >electricity that I don't even know what I'm seeing on the readings,
but I
> >still want to see them.
I'm mystified by this assertion. I've had flight instructors tell
me that ALL displays on the panel are ESSENTIAL else the very wise
folks
who designed and/or regulated the configuration of the airplane
would not have included them on the panel. The same instructors
could not describe how an ammeter or voltmeter was used to enhance
probability of a sweat-free arrival with the earth that was
any more illuminating than having a low voltage warning light
telling me to switch to plan-B or plan-C.
> >So, if that is our desire, rather than trying to convince us that we
don't
> >need the information displayed, how about helping us determine the
best
> >methods
> >to achieve our goals - that is, display of desired system
indications.
> >We aren't necessarily looking for a philosophical disccussion on why
an
> >alternator ammeter is better or worse or more useful/less useful
than a
> >battery
> >ammeter. We are simply asking how to accomplish what we want to
achieve.
> >I don't know how much weight or cost it will add to my project to be
able to
> >monitor the electrons at the alternator, main bus, standby bus,
battery
bus,
> >main battery, standby battery, etc. And I don't care - I just want
to
> >know how
> >best to do it.
Okay, tell us your goals. I'll suggest that your primary goal
for the day is travel from point A to point B without breaking a
sweat. I'll further suggest that it is of no value to you as
pilot to know exactly WHY an alternator has quit, it's only
useful to know it has quit and that it's time to implement a
pre-planned, very predictable alternative such that sweat-free
arrival is assured. All the voltmeters and ammeters in the world
won't help you out if you don't have pre-planned alternatives.
If you DO have pre-planned alternatives, then the voltmeters and
ammeters are surplus to the mission while airborne.
Once you're on the ground, likelihood that ammeters and voltmeters
as-installed will reveal everything you need to zero in on
root cause of failure is remote . . . there are not enough readings
available from the rudimentary installations of such displays.
You can use an airspeed indicator to fine-tune an approach, how
do you use a voltmeter or ammeter to fine-tune endurance?
Bob . . .
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: With or without DYNON Internal Backup Battery |
?
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>I plan to install a DYNON D10A and analyse the Internal Backup Battery
>option.
>I think I do not need it.
>
>
>
Hi Michel and all,
I'm not closely acquainted with the Dynon, but I remember that one MCR
4S builder had trouble with the keepalive draining his battery in the
hangar. When he discovered it, the battery was dead.
In my opinion, there should be ZERO current draw when the master switch
is off.
Has this something to do with your backup battery question ?
Concerning your battery check, maybe my CBA-II battery analyser could
tell you if you really need to buy a new one ? Feel free to call at LFHH
or Grenoble ;-)
FWIW,
Amicalement,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
Message 21
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|
| Subject: | Re: capacitive fuel probes in foam filled tanks? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Richard Tasker <retasker@optonline.net>
They are blowing smoke. A coaxial probe like you describe measures the
capacitance just as you describe. Anything outside the probe is
essentially irrelevant.
Dick Tasker
D Wysong wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: D Wysong <hdwysong@gmail.com>
>
>We're installing capacitive level probes into a semi-rigid fuel bladder
>that is filled with sections of coarse 'anti-explosion' foam (like the
>stuff used in racing tanks).
>
>We've been told by one outfit that we have to cut a tunnel through the
>foam for the probe because any contact with the foam will render the
>probe inop. True?
>
>I assumed the center rod and outer tube of the probe acted as capacitor
>'plates' and that the fuel was the dielectric. Fuel level INSIDE the
>probe (between the center rod and outer tube) changes, capacitance
>changes. I don't understand how the foam comes into play.
>
>I plan on testing it out in the shop just for kicks... but I figured I'd
>ask before I start pouring gasoline on things.
>
>Thanks for any insight!
>
>D
>
>
>
>
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Do I Need an Ammeter? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Paul Folbrecht <pfolbrecht@starkinvestments.com>
Ho boy. Hit reply on the wrong msg there. Apologies to the list.
do not archive
Paul Folbrecht wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Paul Folbrecht <pfolbrecht@starkinvestments.com>
>
>That's no problem. I'm just relieved there's no issue.
>
>Dan Beadle wrote:
>
>
>
>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Beadle" <Dan.Beadle@hq.InclineSoftworks.com>
>>
>>I agree with you 100%. The battery discharge curves are not linear.
>>However, the first poster seemed to have little understanding of the
>>basic use of the ammeter. Getting an understanding with a linear model
>>is the first step. Then you understand the non-linear discharge. (That
>>is why I divide the capacity by two - accounts for the non-linear
>>discharge). And, as you point out, you always want to load shed. A
>>"Critical Buss" is a great way to go to plan B.
>>
>>But... for understanding anything, understand the basics, then
>>understand the subtleties.
>>
>>I still would have the ammeter - it is a great diagnostic tool - Why did
>>the alternator fail (overloaded?) Is the critical bus really only
>>drawing 5 amps? Etc. Takes a lot of stress out of a stressful
>>situation.
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
>>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave
>>Morris "BigD"
>>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>>Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Do I Need an Ammeter?
>>
>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Morris \"BigD\""
>><BigD@DaveMorris.com>
>>
>>The 25AH battery is probably rated 25A at 10 hours. That means it will
>>only put out 2.5A for 10 hours, but you can't say it will put out 50A
>>for a
>>half hour unless you've verified that with the discharge graph for that
>>specific battery. My Panasonic LC-RD1217P is a 17AH battery that puts
>>out
>>1.7A for 10 hours, but at 17A, the graph shows that it will already be
>>dead
>>after a little over 30 minutes, not the full hour one might expect.
>>
>>Safer would be for a single "Plan B switch" to shut down a specific
>>group
>>of non-essential equipment, leaving only those loads whose currents you
>>have already computed or measured beforehand, so that you know exactly
>>how
>>many minutes of flight time you have remaining based on a calculation
>>you
>>did on the ground. Even better would be to have already measured your
>>battery life under that load in real time on the ground, not relying on
>>charts and graphs from the manufacturer.
>>
>>In my case, I would have done a load test to verify that my 17AH battery
>>
>>can source about 5A for 2 hours (as shown in the graph), enough to get
>>me
>>on the ground. And then I make sure my total loads required to fly off
>>that 2 hours do not exceed 5A. And then I test the battery every year to
>>
>>make sure the 5A for 2 hours still holds.
>>
>>Then the only thing you need an ammeter for is to verify that you aren't
>>
>>drawing more than 5A for some reason, after you flip the "Plan B
>>Switch".
>>
>>Dave Morris
>>
>>
>>At 09:53 AM 12/1/2005, you wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Beadle"
>>><Dan.Beadle@hq.InclineSoftworks.com>
>>>Suppose is shows -50A. I have a 25
>>>Amp Hour battery. That says I should have 25/50 or .5 hours at the
>>>present load. (we conveniently just drop the minus sign - but the .5
>>>hours is to discharge, not charge, accounting for the minus sign) So I
>>>immediately shut down everything I can (heater fan, extra radio, lights
>>>I don't need during daytime, etc....) I cut the load to 10A so I now
>>>have 25/10 or 2.5 hours to get down. I cut that in half for my safety
>>>factor and figure a have a good 1.25 hours to get down.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
Message 23
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| Subject: | With or without DYNON Internal Backup Battery |
?
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Yes but that was a faulty unit I believe. The Dynon has an internal
clock and charger for its internal battery...Like it or not this
translates into a tiny current draw (milliamps) which will easily be
maintained by your battery maintainer/charger.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Gilles Thesee
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: With or without DYNON Internal Backup
Battery ?
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee
--> <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>I plan to install a DYNON D10A and analyse the Internal Backup Battery
>option.
>I think I do not need it.
>
>
>
Hi Michel and all,
I'm not closely acquainted with the Dynon, but I remember that one MCR
4S builder had trouble with the keepalive draining his battery in the
hangar. When he discovered it, the battery was dead.
In my opinion, there should be ZERO current draw when the master switch
is off.
Has this something to do with your backup battery question ?
Message 24
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|
| Subject: | capacitive fuel probes in foam filled tanks? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
Not if it keeps the probe wet.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard
Tasker
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: capacitive fuel probes in foam filled tanks?
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Richard Tasker
<retasker@optonline.net>
They are blowing smoke. A coaxial probe like you describe measures the
capacitance just as you describe. Anything outside the probe is
essentially irrelevant.
Dick Tasker
D Wysong wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: D Wysong <hdwysong@gmail.com>
>
>We're installing capacitive level probes into a semi-rigid fuel bladder
>that is filled with sections of coarse 'anti-explosion' foam (like the
>stuff used in racing tanks).
>
>We've been told by one outfit that we have to cut a tunnel through the
>foam for the probe because any contact with the foam will render the
>probe inop. True?
>
>I assumed the center rod and outer tube of the probe acted as capacitor
>'plates' and that the fuel was the dielectric. Fuel level INSIDE the
>probe (between the center rod and outer tube) changes, capacitance
>changes. I don't understand how the foam comes into play.
>
>I plan on testing it out in the shop just for kicks... but I figured I'd
>ask before I start pouring gasoline on things.
>
>Thanks for any insight!
>
>D
>
>
>
>
Message 25
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|
| Subject: | Re: Alternator terminals |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark R. Supinski" <mark.supinski@gmail.com>
>
>
> >Thanks for the input, Bob.
> >
> >I note the comment: "If I were going to use this alternator in any
> >application..." Which gets my antenna wiggling.
> >
> >General concerns about internally regulated alternators not withstanding,
> >would you not recommend this alternator for a Z-19 based system?
>
> I have no basis to recommend it or discourage it. By "any application"
> I
> meant that if I needed to discover a way to make it work anywhere,
> I'd proceed as follows . . .
>
> Bob . . .
>
On further study, I wonder whether this alternator can be used in a Z-19
style of system. As I understand it, the "F" input is used to turn the
alternator on & off -- thus if the Crowbar detects a failed regulator, the
end result is that F shuts down & the alternator is taken offline.
Based on your analysis of the internals of my existing alternator, it seems
that there is no shutting it down short of making it stop spinning. Thus,
there is no way to prevent it eating everything on the main and engine
buses.
The only solution I can see is to introduce (another!) contactor, and
somehow use the output of the crowbar & regulator to turn the contactor
on/off.
Am I misreading the Z-19 diagram / alternator analysis?
Thanks,
Mark Supinski
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: With or without DYNON Internal Backup Battery |
?
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Werner Schneider <glastar@gmx.net>
Hello Gilles,
the keepalive does recharge the internal battery and there was one
software version with a fault there. Indeed the Dynon does use some
50-70 mA to recharge, except when you have drained the internal battery
it will start charging with I think close to one Amp.
Can I take you also on the Battery tester just living in Switzerland
about 80 minutes away from Grenoble and want to visit my friends from
work, he is flying from LFLG.
Werner
do not archive
Gilles Thesee wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>
>
>
>
>>I plan to install a DYNON D10A and analyse the Internal Backup Battery
>>option.
>>I think I do not need it.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>Hi Michel and all,
>
>I'm not closely acquainted with the Dynon, but I remember that one MCR
>4S builder had trouble with the keepalive draining his battery in the
>hangar. When he discovered it, the battery was dead.
>In my opinion, there should be ZERO current draw when the master switch
>is off.
>Has this something to do with your backup battery question ?
>
>Concerning your battery check, maybe my CBA-II battery analyser could
>tell you if you really need to buy a new one ? Feel free to call at LFHH
>or Grenoble ;-)
>
>FWIW,
>
>Amicalement,
>Gilles
>http://contrails.free.fr
>
>
>
>
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: capacitive fuel probes in foam filled tanks? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Richard Tasker <retasker@optonline.net>
It has to keep the space inside the probe wet. Outside is irrelevant.
Dick Tasker
Bruce Gray wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
>
>Not if it keeps the probe wet.
>
>Bruce
>www.glasair.org
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard
>Tasker
>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: capacitive fuel probes in foam filled tanks?
>
>
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Richard Tasker
><retasker@optonline.net>
>
>They are blowing smoke. A coaxial probe like you describe measures the
>capacitance just as you describe. Anything outside the probe is
>essentially irrelevant.
>
>Dick Tasker
>
>
Message 28
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|
| Subject: | capacitive fuel probes in foam filled tanks? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" <mprather@spro.net>
Is the foam conductive (metalic)? I think that's the only case that might
matter. Keeping the outside of the probe wet won't cause malfuction
(think about the tank sloshing).
My understanding is that this type of probe works because it is a coaxial
capacitor (two concentric, coductive materials). The dielectric in the
capacitor changes depending on the depth of fuel in the tube (the tank).
The gauge works by measuring the change in capacitance due to the change
in overall dielectric. Capactive coupling with material on the outside of
the probe should have little effect on its operation.
Regards,
Matt-
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray"
> <Bruce@glasair.org>
>
> Not if it keeps the probe wet.
>
> Bruce
> www.glasair.org
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Richard Tasker
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: capacitive fuel probes in foam filled
> tanks?
>
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Richard Tasker
> <retasker@optonline.net>
>
> They are blowing smoke. A coaxial probe like you describe measures the
> capacitance just as you describe. Anything outside the probe is
> essentially irrelevant.
>
> Dick Tasker
>
> D Wysong wrote:
>
>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: D Wysong <hdwysong@gmail.com>
>>
>>We're installing capacitive level probes into a semi-rigid fuel bladder
>> that is filled with sections of coarse 'anti-explosion' foam (like the
>> stuff used in racing tanks).
>>
>>We've been told by one outfit that we have to cut a tunnel through the
>> foam for the probe because any contact with the foam will render the
>> probe inop. True?
>>
>>I assumed the center rod and outer tube of the probe acted as capacitor
>> 'plates' and that the fuel was the dielectric. Fuel level INSIDE the
>> probe (between the center rod and outer tube) changes, capacitance
>> changes. I don't understand how the foam comes into play.
>>
>>I plan on testing it out in the shop just for kicks... but I figured
>> I'd ask before I start pouring gasoline on things.
>>
>>Thanks for any insight!
>>
>>D
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: capacitive fuel probes in foam filled tanks? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: D Wysong <hdwysong@gmail.com>
I reckon I could test this. (?)
Fill a vial (or whatever) with gasoline and lower my probe in half way
and take a reading. Then, plug the air vent at the top of the probe and
lower the probe all the way in so that the outside fuel level is much
'deeper' than what's trapped on the inside.
If the reading doesn't change then I'm set (no foam tunnels!). If the
reading does change... well... then I'll probably curse for a while,
kick the dog, and wonder why the governing physics (as I understand
them) don't make sense.
D
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: With or without DYNON Internal Backup Battery |
?
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kevin Horton <khorton01@rogers.com>
On 1 Dec 2005, at 12:17, Michel RIAZUELO wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Michel RIAZUELO
> <mt.riazuelo@wanadoo.fr>
>
> Hi Bob and all,
>
> I have been flying with my ROTAX 912 powered MCR SPORTSTER since June
> 2004 (250 h) and after every fly I thank Aeroelectric ....!
> My electrical system is Z16 figure based (of course), I have a 2
> hours
> electrical range and the battery will be replaced next June !
>
> I plan to install a DYNON D10A and analyse the Internal Backup Battery
> option.
> I think I do not need it.
Given the conditions under which you will fly the aircraft (day VFR,
night VFR, IFR, ?), any other installed flight instruments that don't
use electrical power, the aircraft flight characteristics and any
natural stall warning, what are the consequences if you lose
electrical power and the Dynon goes black?
Even if you have a backup battery, there are potential failure modes
where the Dynon could go black (screen failure, internal failures,
etc). If you plan to live a long time you need to be equipped so a
Dynon failure leaves you in an acceptable situation. If you have
done that, the risks from an electrical failure killing the Dynon are
acceptable. I believe the backup battery is not needed, in the
strictest sense of the definition. It might be desired, but that is
a personal preference.
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: With or without DYNON Internal Backup Battery |
?
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Hi Werner and all,
>
>the keepalive does recharge the internal battery and there was one
>software version with a fault there. Indeed the Dynon does use some
>50-70 mA
>
That's enough to run the battery flat within a week.
When designing our ship's circuits, the question arose about the panel
clock keepalive. I'm happy with my decision to rely on the internal
battery instead of running the keepalive from the ship's main battery.
>Can I take you also on the Battery tester just living in Switzerland
>about 80 minutes away from Grenoble and want to visit my friends from
>work, he is flying from LFLG.
>
>
>
Sure, you're welcome.
Regards,
Gilles Thesee
Grenoble, France
http://contrails.free.fr
Message 32
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|
| Subject: | Re: Electronics International Capacitive Fuel Level |
Probes P-300C
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Schroeder" <jschroeder@perigee.net>
Mark -
I had a long discussion with EI folks about the difference between their
probe and VMS's. Apparently they are the same except that VMS probes have
the electronics onternal to the probe and EI has theirs outside. The
external configuration allows much easier replacement if they go kaput. If
I recall my conversation with Princeton correctly, they said both probes
have to use the module in order to interface with BMA's EFIS/ONE.
Blue Mountain also told us that we had to have the Princeton Electronics
modules for our VMS probes to provide the proper signal format to the
EFIS/ONE. The question now for us is why, if the probes are electrically
identical, do did we have to buy the Princeton modules?
Any thoughts or insights or specifics on this proble would be most
appreciated. Wiring the modules and their cost were a bit of a challenge!.
I would most appreciate your sending me, offline, a copy of the scope
trace of the EI signal.
Thanks,
John
Lancair ES - Starting the paint process.
On Thu, 1 Dec 2005 10:53:45 -0600, Mark R Steitle
<mark.steitle@austin.utexas.edu> wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark R Steitle"
> <mark.steitle@austin.utexas.edu>
>
> Dick,
> Thank you for clarifying my last posting. I just meant to say that for
> testing purposes, 1) water won't work, and 2) you can get a ballpark
> idea using something other than gasoline. Also, you'll need to do a
> final calibration, with the fuel you'll be burning, once you have your
> system connected.
>
> Mark S.
>
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Do I Need an Ammeter? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Carlos Trigo" <trigo@mail.telepac.pt>
Dan
Congratulations.
I think I never read nothing so eloquent and educating about the use (and
need) of voltmeters and ammeters.
I was in favor of using both; now I know I'm 100% right.
Thanks
Carlos
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Beadle" <Dan.Beadle@hq.InclineSoftworks.com>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Do I Need an Ammeter?
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Beadle"
> <Dan.Beadle@hq.InclineSoftworks.com>
>
> You bring up a good point about how to interpret the ammeter voltmeter.
>
> Volts show you the present health of the system - but not the endurance.
> If you have 14V showing on the meter, you have an alternator running the
> system and charging the battery. Fail the alternator and the volts fall
> to 12, the basic output of a charged battery. As you continue to fly
> with no alternator, the battery will run down. Voltage Lead acid
> batteries tend to fall with their charge remaining - but it is not
> linear - a half full battery shows more than 6V. And that voltage
> depends on how fast you are drawing current out of it - higher loads
> lower the voltage. Bottom line, it is very hard to tell the capacity
> remaining in the battery based on volts. So the Volt meter is VERY good
> at telling if you are on alternator or not. If not, it is not very good
> at forecasting how much battery you have left. So on alternator
> failure, you must use other means to determine when your radios and
> instruments will fall over dead due to lack of juice....
>
> An ammeter is a pretty good alternative, but it requires a little basic
> math. I prefer ammeters that show the current into/out of the battery.
> These go negative on discharge and positive on charge. My C414 has such
> a system. In normal operation, the ammeter shows a small current going
> into the battery. This is good - the battery is being recharged. This
> current is higher right after start (I have used some energy to start
> the airplane - it needs to be returned - recharged - to the battery).
> Then it goes down to a low maintenance. Should the alternator(s) fail,
> the battery current shows negative. Suppose is shows -50A. I have a 25
> Amp Hour battery. That says I should have 25/50 or .5 hours at the
> present load. (we conveniently just drop the minus sign - but the .5
> hours is to discharge, not charge, accounting for the minus sign) So I
> immediately shut down everything I can (heater fan, extra radio, lights
> I don't need during daytime, etc....) I cut the load to 10A so I now
> have 25/10 or 2.5 hours to get down. I cut that in half for my safety
> factor and figure a have a good 1.25 hours to get down.
>
> There are other style ammeter hookups - the total load style. They
> always show positive - Piper seemed to like this style and my C414 also
> shows information this way - The idea is that it just shows total drain
> from the system - but now where it is coming from. This is measured at
> the battery master buss - after the recharge point from the regulator.
> The value shown can be directly applied in our formula - take the value
> - say 20 amps - IF the alternator were to fail now, I would have 25/20
> hours left. 1.25. I cut that in half and figure it is time to get down
> now. The problem with this style ammeter is that it doesn't tell you
> that the alternator has failed. I believe that this configuration
> should always be coupled with a voltmeter or some other circuit to tell
> that the alternator has failed.
>
> I am a proponent of IDIOT lights for alternator failure. It is easy to
> get distracted by other flying duties and miss an alternator failure.
> Then, it is hard to figure out where you were when you lost it - did it
> just occur (I have a full battery) or did it occur before takeoff (I may
> have already used up the battery). Believe me, even with an
> annunciator, I have seen people in the C414 simulator take a while to
> recognize an alternator failure (or a fire for that matter) when the
> work load is dialed up.
>
>
> Anyway, so much for "Reading those stupid gages"
>
> Hope it helps
>
> Dan
Message 34
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|
| Subject: | Re: Electronics International Capacitive Fuel |
Level Probes P-300C
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: D Wysong <hdwysong@gmail.com>
Hi John -
The VMS probes contain circuitry (the "R" part of an RC circuit) that
allows them to generate a pulse train (PWM) with frequency proportional
to fuel level. You have to buy/build the signal conditioner
(frequency-to-voltage conversion) to get the DC voltage required by the
BM units. There are IC's that'll do it for you if you're interested in
rolling your own (as long as BM handles the calibration).
The other probes (Van's, EI) are capacitors. To use them with BM units
you need to complete the RC circuit (to get frequency) AND perform the
frequency-to-voltage conversion. Same thing... but different.
So, since BM wants to see a 0-5 VDC signal, both probes DO require
signal conditioning before they can be used -- but not the same sorta
signal conditioning.
D
---------
John Schroeder wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Schroeder" <jschroeder@perigee.net>
>
> Mark -
>
> I had a long discussion with EI folks about the difference between their
> probe and VMS's. Apparently they are the same except that VMS probes have
> the electronics onternal to the probe and EI has theirs outside. The
> external configuration allows much easier replacement if they go kaput. If
> I recall my conversation with Princeton correctly, they said both probes
> have to use the module in order to interface with BMA's EFIS/ONE.
>
> Blue Mountain also told us that we had to have the Princeton Electronics
> modules for our VMS probes to provide the proper signal format to the
> EFIS/ONE. The question now for us is why, if the probes are electrically
> identical, do did we have to buy the Princeton modules?
>
> Any thoughts or insights or specifics on this proble would be most
> appreciated. Wiring the modules and their cost were a bit of a challenge!.
>
> I would most appreciate your sending me, offline, a copy of the scope
> trace of the EI signal.
>
> Thanks,
>
> John
> Lancair ES - Starting the paint process.
>
>
> On Thu, 1 Dec 2005 10:53:45 -0600, Mark R Steitle
> <mark.steitle@austin.utexas.edu> wrote:
>
>
>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark R Steitle"
>><mark.steitle@austin.utexas.edu>
>>
>>Dick,
>>Thank you for clarifying my last posting. I just meant to say that for
>>testing purposes, 1) water won't work, and 2) you can get a ballpark
>>idea using something other than gasoline. Also, you'll need to do a
>>final calibration, with the fuel you'll be burning, once you have your
>>system connected.
>>
>>Mark S.
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 35
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|
| Subject: | Re: Electronics International Capacitive Fuel Level |
Probes P-300C
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Schroeder" <jschroeder@perigee.net>
Hello D -
As I read Mark's posting, he simply hooked up his EI probes directly to
the BMA EFIS/ONE and it works. We did what BMA suggested: bought a
Princeton Electronics module for each probe and wired its output into the
EFIS/ONE. As I read your posting, Mark should also have had to buy a
converter/conditioner.
I am still puzzled.
Thanks for your help.
John
On Thu, 01 Dec 2005 17:57:06 -0600, D Wysong <hdwysong@gmail.com> wrote:
> So, since BM wants to see a 0-5 VDC signal, both probes DO require
> signal conditioning before they can be used -- but not the same sorta
> signal conditioning.
--
Message 36
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|
| Subject: | Re: Do I Need an Ammeter? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Lloyd" <skywagon@charter.net>
Probably mentioned before.... there are single meters, that with a push
button will show both amps (current flow and direction) and buss voltage.
Who makes a good idiot light for system voltage that will indicate both high
and low alarm settings???
David
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carlos Trigo" <trigo@mail.telepac.pt>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Do I Need an Ammeter?
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Carlos Trigo"
> <trigo@mail.telepac.pt>
>
> Dan
>
> Congratulations.
> I think I never read nothing so eloquent and educating about the use (and
> need) of voltmeters and ammeters.
> I was in favor of using both; now I know I'm 100% right.
>
> Thanks
> Carlos
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dan Beadle" <Dan.Beadle@hq.InclineSoftworks.com>
> To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Do I Need an Ammeter?
>
>
>> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Beadle"
>> <Dan.Beadle@hq.InclineSoftworks.com>
>>
>> You bring up a good point about how to interpret the ammeter voltmeter.
>>
>> Volts show you the present health of the system - but not the endurance.
>> If you have 14V showing on the meter, you have an alternator running the
>> system and charging the battery. Fail the alternator and the volts fall
>> to 12, the basic output of a charged battery. As you continue to fly
>> with no alternator, the battery will run down. Voltage Lead acid
>> batteries tend to fall with their charge remaining - but it is not
>> linear - a half full battery shows more than 6V. And that voltage
>> depends on how fast you are drawing current out of it - higher loads
>> lower the voltage. Bottom line, it is very hard to tell the capacity
>> remaining in the battery based on volts. So the Volt meter is VERY good
>> at telling if you are on alternator or not. If not, it is not very good
>> at forecasting how much battery you have left. So on alternator
>> failure, you must use other means to determine when your radios and
>> instruments will fall over dead due to lack of juice....
>>
>> An ammeter is a pretty good alternative, but it requires a little basic
>> math. I prefer ammeters that show the current into/out of the battery.
>> These go negative on discharge and positive on charge. My C414 has such
>> a system. In normal operation, the ammeter shows a small current going
>> into the battery. This is good - the battery is being recharged. This
>> current is higher right after start (I have used some energy to start
>> the airplane - it needs to be returned - recharged - to the battery).
>> Then it goes down to a low maintenance. Should the alternator(s) fail,
>> the battery current shows negative. Suppose is shows -50A. I have a 25
>> Amp Hour battery. That says I should have 25/50 or .5 hours at the
>> present load. (we conveniently just drop the minus sign - but the .5
>> hours is to discharge, not charge, accounting for the minus sign) So I
>> immediately shut down everything I can (heater fan, extra radio, lights
>> I don't need during daytime, etc....) I cut the load to 10A so I now
>> have 25/10 or 2.5 hours to get down. I cut that in half for my safety
>> factor and figure a have a good 1.25 hours to get down.
>>
>> There are other style ammeter hookups - the total load style. They
>> always show positive - Piper seemed to like this style and my C414 also
>> shows information this way - The idea is that it just shows total drain
>> from the system - but now where it is coming from. This is measured at
>> the battery master buss - after the recharge point from the regulator.
>> The value shown can be directly applied in our formula - take the value
>> - say 20 amps - IF the alternator were to fail now, I would have 25/20
>> hours left. 1.25. I cut that in half and figure it is time to get down
>> now. The problem with this style ammeter is that it doesn't tell you
>> that the alternator has failed. I believe that this configuration
>> should always be coupled with a voltmeter or some other circuit to tell
>> that the alternator has failed.
>>
>> I am a proponent of IDIOT lights for alternator failure. It is easy to
>> get distracted by other flying duties and miss an alternator failure.
>> Then, it is hard to figure out where you were when you lost it - did it
>> just occur (I have a full battery) or did it occur before takeoff (I may
>> have already used up the battery). Believe me, even with an
>> annunciator, I have seen people in the C414 simulator take a while to
>> recognize an alternator failure (or a fire for that matter) when the
>> work load is dialed up.
>>
>>
>> Anyway, so much for "Reading those stupid gages"
>>
>> Hope it helps
>>
>> Dan
>
>
>
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: Electronics International Capacitive Fuel |
Level Probes P-300C
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: D Wysong <hdwysong@gmail.com>
Hi John -
It sounds like Mark is using frequency inputs available on the BM unit
instead of the proportional analog (0-5 VDC) inputs for his fuel level
signals.
That was a work-around for the BM units late last decade (... before the
external DC dongles were created) when folks were trying to integrate
their Vision Microsystems probes. Those probes, however, are PWM
generators.
A P-300C (EI capacitive fuel probe) won't generate a PWM signal without
additional circuitry. So... I reckon I'm puzzled, too! :-)
D
Message 38
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|
| Subject: | Re: Do I Need an Ammeter? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 04:54 PM 12/1/2005 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Lloyd" <skywagon@charter.net>
>
>Probably mentioned before.... there are single meters, that with a push
>button will show both amps (current flow and direction) and buss voltage.
>
>Who makes a good idiot light for system voltage that will indicate both high
>and low alarm settings???
If you have ov protection, the conventional wisdom that you
don't need ov indication too. An ov condition trips the system
off line which generates an immediate lv condition.
However, B&C offers an OV/LV sensor in one package that I
designed for them about 15 years ago for the ultralight
market. See:
http://bandc.biz/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/cat_display.cgi?6X358218
http://bandc.biz/BC207-1install.pdf
For turnkey lv warn and aux battery management see:
http://aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9005/9005.html
For DIY lv warn and aux battery management see:
http://aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9005/9005-701B.pdf
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/lvwarn/LVWarn-ABMM.html
and
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/lvwarn/9021-620.pdf
Bob . . .
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: Do I Need an Ammeter? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
In a message dated 12/01/2005 12:26:49 PM Central Standard Time,
mstewart@iss.net writes:
One recent event was I turned on my nav lights and nothing
changed on the meter. I cant see them from the cockpit and was in night
ops.
>>>
Hi Mike- just for kix&giglz ya might want to look at this:
http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/index.php?q=log_entry&log_id=7883
A brain fart that actually came out smelling like a petunia! And no, I don't
have an ammeter, but can see where it could have some diagnostic benefits.
In my case, a LVWM, alarm on EIS4000, input voltage display on PDAs, an e-bus
and Z-11 leave me with little concern for crises in my day/nite VFR RV- those
of y'all that challenge the WX gods may think otherwise....
Mark Phillips - Columbia, TN N51PW 260 hrs
Message 40
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| Subject: | Do I Need an Ammeter? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 07:53 AM 12/1/2005 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Beadle"
><Dan.Beadle@hq.InclineSoftworks.com>
>
>You bring up a good point about how to interpret the ammeter voltmeter.
>
>Volts show you the present health of the system - but not the endurance.
>If you have 14V showing on the meter, you have an alternator running the
>system and charging the battery. Fail the alternator and the volts fall
>to 12, the basic output of a charged battery. As you continue to fly
>with no alternator, the battery will run down. Voltage Lead acid
>batteries tend to fall with their charge remaining - but it is not
>linear - a half full battery shows more than 6V. And that voltage
>depends on how fast you are drawing current out of it - higher loads
>lower the voltage. Bottom line, it is very hard to tell the capacity
>remaining in the battery based on volts. So the Volt meter is VERY good
>at telling if you are on alternator or not. If not, it is not very good
>at forecasting how much battery you have left. So on alternator
>failure, you must use other means to determine when your radios and
>instruments will fall over dead due to lack of juice....
All true. Consider this:
The vast majority of alternator failures are either crapped cold
or ov runaway with the former taking the lead. If one chooses to
automatically mitigate the runaway condition with ov protection,
then this failure mode is covered. If the alternator is dead,
then the bus never rises above 13.0 volts and a low voltage light
will annunciate this condition.
If the alternator has failed, I'll suggest it is far better to
KNOW in advance what the battery capacity is for a switch to
Plan-B and confidence that there's sufficient juice to support
your pre-planned alt-out endurance value. I would strive to
support needed electro-whizzies for duration of fuel aboard.
Others might choose a different value. In the final analysis,
there's no practical reason why you should not be able to operate
with confidence in your pre-planed configuration.
Even if you do have a voltmeter, the best it can do is give
you a rough idea of voltage sink rate. The average stick jocky
should be not expected to observe voltmeter readings over some
period of time and then dance mathematical gyrations necessary
to integrate and predict when things quit whizzing. It's far better
to know in advance what the number is whereupon the voltmeter
becomes surplus to the task of completing the mission.
>An ammeter is a pretty good alternative, but it requires a little basic
>math. I prefer ammeters that show the current into/out of the battery.
>These go negative on discharge and positive on charge. My C414 has such
>a system. In normal operation, the ammeter shows a small current going
>into the battery. This is good - the battery is being recharged. This
>current is higher right after start (I have used some energy to start
>the airplane - it needs to be returned - recharged - to the battery).
>Then it goes down to a low maintenance. Should the alternator(s) fail,
>the battery current shows negative. Suppose is shows -50A. I have a 25
>Amp Hour battery. That says I should have 25/50 or .5 hours at the
>present load. (we conveniently just drop the minus sign - but the .5
>hours is to discharge, not charge, accounting for the minus sign) So I
>immediately shut down everything I can (heater fan, extra radio, lights
>I don't need during daytime, etc....) I cut the load to 10A so I now
>have 25/10 or 2.5 hours to get down. I cut that in half for my safety
>factor and figure a have a good 1.25 hours to get down.
Ammeters are a terrible predictor of endurance. The methodology
you cite presumes that the battery's capacity is equal to or
greater than advertised and neglects the fact the 25 value
is correct only for the 20 hour discharge rate (in this case,
about 1.25 amps). The apparent capacity drops as loads go up
due to increased losses in the battery's internal resistance.
The astute builder will either (1) replace an inexpensive battery
annually so as to KNOW the battery's capacity or (2) do periodic
cap checks (at the planned e-bus loading) to verify the battery's
suitability for continued flight.
>There are other style ammeter hookups - the total load style. They
>always show positive - Piper seemed to like this style and my C414 also
>shows information this way - The idea is that it just shows total drain
>from the system - but now where it is coming from. This is measured at
>the battery master buss - after the recharge point from the regulator.
>The value shown can be directly applied in our formula - take the value
>- say 20 amps - IF the alternator were to fail now, I would have 25/20
>hours left. 1.25. I cut that in half and figure it is time to get down
>now. The problem with this style ammeter is that it doesn't tell you
>that the alternator has failed. I believe that this configuration
>should always be coupled with a voltmeter or some other circuit to tell
>that the alternator has failed.
>I am a proponent of IDIOT lights for alternator failure. It is easy to
>get distracted by other flying duties and miss an alternator failure.
>Then, it is hard to figure out where you were when you lost it - did it
>just occur (I have a full battery) or did it occur before takeoff (I may
>have already used up the battery). Believe me, even with an
>annunciator, I have seen people in the C414 simulator take a while to
>recognize an alternator failure (or a fire for that matter) when the
>work load is dialed up.
Absolutely. The low voltage warning light is just such an "other circuit".
Knowing the battery's capacity at the pre-determined, Plan-B endurance
loads combined with simple notification of alternator failure is
about as bullet-proof as you can get for the workload involved.
Voltmeters, ammeters, fuel gages, oil pressure gages, etc are NOT
warning devices in any sense of the word. These devices tend to
read exactly the same things they said 1,000 observations ago and
there's a psychological incentive to ignore and/or even miss
changes in their presentation.
I'm not suggesting that one should not have these capabilities
on the panel. We're bringing a new line of high-quality loadmeters
and perhaps voltmeters to the market place in a few weeks. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Instruments/Loadmeter_2.jpg
I'll only suggest that these devices are adjuncts to active
notification of low voltage combined with a knowledge
of battery capacity as it relates to e-bus loads and the
builder's pre-selected endurance goals. Instrument readings
are interesting and useful in some venues but nearly useless
when operations/maintenance are not well planned and things
under the cowl are having a bad day.
Bob . . .
Message 41
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| Subject: | Do I Need an Ammeter? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 01:11 PM 12/1/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)"
><mstewart@iss.net>
>
>I find my amp meter(In my case an amp indication of electrons being
>replaced in the battery) to be an excellent reflection of what IS
>working. One recent event was I turned on my nav lights and nothing
>changed on the meter. I cant see them from the cockpit and was in night
>ops. Shut down, change a fuse, and away I went. (don't know why it was
>blown. I suspect it was under fused with a 4 amp fuse.)
Folks should understand that only the LOADMETER (alternator output
amps) is useful for this service. A minus-zero-plus battery ammeter
will jump when a new load is added but offers no clue as to it's
magnitude. With a LOADMETER, it's possible to tell if one of the
three nav lights are burned out.
>Also in more critical situations, like IMC with potential icing, I like
>to see that when I put the Pitot Heat on, then the amp meter goes up
>appropriately. Otherwise I would never know if it is in fact working.
Which is exactly why production aircraft today have a combination of
current and pitot heat supply voltage indication like these
two illustrations.
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Misc/CurrentSense.jpg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/DeIce/Pitot_Heat.pdf
The light shows that the power switch is ON and the reed relay
senses that current is flowing. This identical system is installed
on most of our production aircraft at RAC.
>Frankly, given the choice, Id take amps over volts as long as I had an
>alarm, which I do, that tells me when my amps are too low or too high.
Where do you set the alarm for "too low" and "too high" and
how did you arrive at these values? And would not a low voltage
warning set at 13.0 (or 26.0) volts be more indicative of the
alternator's ability to support the current system loads?
Bob . . .
Message 42
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|
| Subject: | SOS magneto vibrators? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
>
>Comments/Questions: Hello, My question is where can I get a shower of
>sparks with relay vibrator that is shown on your drawing labeled (SHOWER
>OF SPARKS VIBRATOR FOR TOGGLE SWITCH CONTROLED MAGNETOS)? Can you please
>provide a part number, manufacture etc? I plan on using this system on my RV8.
I don't supply these kinds of parts. I write texts and offer
classes on how they work. You can buy SOS vibrators from Aircraft
Spruce but be aware that Shower of Sparks diagram I've illustrated
is UNIQUE to two-breaker magnetos with no impulse coupler. The
same technique could be added to a single breaker mag with
impulse coupler . . . in fact, I belive there's a new, solid state
equivalent to the electro-mechanical vibrator called the Slickstart
See:
http://www.unisonindustries.com/pdf/marketing_literature/SlickStart%20Sure%20Start.pdf
This promises to add cranking performance on mags that rivals electronic
ignition.
Bob . . .
Message 43
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|
| Subject: | SOS magneto vibrators? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
Check with Unison (Slick) to see if they make a SOS mag for your engine. You
only need one (the left one).
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Subject: AeroElectric-List: SOS magneto vibrators?
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<nuckollsr@cox.net>
>
>Comments/Questions: Hello, My question is where can I get a shower of
>sparks with relay vibrator that is shown on your drawing labeled (SHOWER
>OF SPARKS VIBRATOR FOR TOGGLE SWITCH CONTROLED MAGNETOS)? Can you please
>provide a part number, manufacture etc? I plan on using this system on my
RV8.
I don't supply these kinds of parts. I write texts and offer
classes on how they work. You can buy SOS vibrators from Aircraft
Spruce but be aware that Shower of Sparks diagram I've illustrated
is UNIQUE to two-breaker magnetos with no impulse coupler. The
same technique could be added to a single breaker mag with
impulse coupler . . . in fact, I belive there's a new, solid state
equivalent to the electro-mechanical vibrator called the Slickstart
See:
http://www.unisonindustries.com/pdf/marketing_literature/SlickStart%20Sure%2
0Start.pdf
This promises to add cranking performance on mags that rivals electronic
ignition.
Bob . . .
Message 44
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| Subject: | Do I Need an Ammeter? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Beadle" <Dan.Beadle@hq.InclineSoftworks.com>
I subscribe to the "annual battery replacement" program that you
propose. You do need to know where the battery starts from. But I
disagree with the simple Plan B. If you trust the battery, due to
replacement, Plan B give you a minimum endurance. I can still do better
than that by consulting the ammeter and shutting down optional circuits.
I need position lights on Plan B (The failure may happen at night an
this is a regulatory requirement - I know - I could say PIC discretion
to dump the position lights at night - but I want o invoke that with due
consideration).
If the Plan B gives me an hour and I can shed some more load to get 2
hours, why not be able to tell what it is from the ammeter.
Finally, most loads on the circuits are over-stated - Peak Values. Use
the ammeter to see what the real loads are.
I agree that looking at the trend over time from pilot perspective is a
non-starter. Pilots are busy and time "warps".
Dan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Do I Need an Ammeter?
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 07:53 AM 12/1/2005 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Beadle"
><Dan.Beadle@hq.InclineSoftworks.com>
>
>You bring up a good point about how to interpret the ammeter voltmeter.
>
>Volts show you the present health of the system - but not the
endurance.
>If you have 14V showing on the meter, you have an alternator running
the
>system and charging the battery. Fail the alternator and the volts
fall
>to 12, the basic output of a charged battery. As you continue to fly
>with no alternator, the battery will run down. Voltage Lead acid
>batteries tend to fall with their charge remaining - but it is not
>linear - a half full battery shows more than 6V. And that voltage
>depends on how fast you are drawing current out of it - higher loads
>lower the voltage. Bottom line, it is very hard to tell the capacity
>remaining in the battery based on volts. So the Volt meter is VERY
good
>at telling if you are on alternator or not. If not, it is not very
good
>at forecasting how much battery you have left. So on alternator
>failure, you must use other means to determine when your radios and
>instruments will fall over dead due to lack of juice....
All true. Consider this:
The vast majority of alternator failures are either crapped cold
or ov runaway with the former taking the lead. If one chooses to
automatically mitigate the runaway condition with ov protection,
then this failure mode is covered. If the alternator is dead,
then the bus never rises above 13.0 volts and a low voltage light
will annunciate this condition.
If the alternator has failed, I'll suggest it is far better to
KNOW in advance what the battery capacity is for a switch to
Plan-B and confidence that there's sufficient juice to support
your pre-planned alt-out endurance value. I would strive to
support needed electro-whizzies for duration of fuel aboard.
Others might choose a different value. In the final analysis,
there's no practical reason why you should not be able to operate
with confidence in your pre-planed configuration.
Even if you do have a voltmeter, the best it can do is give
you a rough idea of voltage sink rate. The average stick jocky
should be not expected to observe voltmeter readings over some
period of time and then dance mathematical gyrations necessary
to integrate and predict when things quit whizzing. It's far better
to know in advance what the number is whereupon the voltmeter
becomes surplus to the task of completing the mission.
>An ammeter is a pretty good alternative, but it requires a little basic
>math. I prefer ammeters that show the current into/out of the battery.
>These go negative on discharge and positive on charge. My C414 has
such
>a system. In normal operation, the ammeter shows a small current going
>into the battery. This is good - the battery is being recharged. This
>current is higher right after start (I have used some energy to start
>the airplane - it needs to be returned - recharged - to the battery).
>Then it goes down to a low maintenance. Should the alternator(s) fail,
>the battery current shows negative. Suppose is shows -50A. I have a
25
>Amp Hour battery. That says I should have 25/50 or .5 hours at the
>present load. (we conveniently just drop the minus sign - but the .5
>hours is to discharge, not charge, accounting for the minus sign) So I
>immediately shut down everything I can (heater fan, extra radio, lights
>I don't need during daytime, etc....) I cut the load to 10A so I now
>have 25/10 or 2.5 hours to get down. I cut that in half for my safety
>factor and figure a have a good 1.25 hours to get down.
Ammeters are a terrible predictor of endurance. The methodology
you cite presumes that the battery's capacity is equal to or
greater than advertised and neglects the fact the 25 value
is correct only for the 20 hour discharge rate (in this case,
about 1.25 amps). The apparent capacity drops as loads go up
due to increased losses in the battery's internal resistance.
The astute builder will either (1) replace an inexpensive battery
annually so as to KNOW the battery's capacity or (2) do periodic
cap checks (at the planned e-bus loading) to verify the battery's
suitability for continued flight.
>There are other style ammeter hookups - the total load style. They
>always show positive - Piper seemed to like this style and my C414 also
>shows information this way - The idea is that it just shows total drain
>from the system - but now where it is coming from. This is measured at
>the battery master buss - after the recharge point from the regulator.
>The value shown can be directly applied in our formula - take the value
>- say 20 amps - IF the alternator were to fail now, I would have 25/20
>hours left. 1.25. I cut that in half and figure it is time to get
down
>now. The problem with this style ammeter is that it doesn't tell you
>that the alternator has failed. I believe that this configuration
>should always be coupled with a voltmeter or some other circuit to tell
>that the alternator has failed.
>I am a proponent of IDIOT lights for alternator failure. It is easy to
>get distracted by other flying duties and miss an alternator failure.
>Then, it is hard to figure out where you were when you lost it - did it
>just occur (I have a full battery) or did it occur before takeoff (I
may
>have already used up the battery). Believe me, even with an
>annunciator, I have seen people in the C414 simulator take a while to
>recognize an alternator failure (or a fire for that matter) when the
>work load is dialed up.
Absolutely. The low voltage warning light is just such an "other
circuit".
Knowing the battery's capacity at the pre-determined, Plan-B
endurance
loads combined with simple notification of alternator failure is
about as bullet-proof as you can get for the workload involved.
Voltmeters, ammeters, fuel gages, oil pressure gages, etc are NOT
warning devices in any sense of the word. These devices tend to
read exactly the same things they said 1,000 observations ago and
there's a psychological incentive to ignore and/or even miss
changes in their presentation.
I'm not suggesting that one should not have these capabilities
on the panel. We're bringing a new line of high-quality loadmeters
and perhaps voltmeters to the market place in a few weeks. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Instruments/Loadmeter_2.jpg
I'll only suggest that these devices are adjuncts to active
notification of low voltage combined with a knowledge
of battery capacity as it relates to e-bus loads and the
builder's pre-selected endurance goals. Instrument readings
are interesting and useful in some venues but nearly useless
when operations/maintenance are not well planned and things
under the cowl are having a bad day.
Bob . . .
Message 45
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| Subject: | Official Usage Guideline [Please Read] [Monthly Posting] |
DNA: do not archive
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: dralle@matronics.com
Dear Lister,
Please read over the AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete
AeroElectric-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/AeroElectric-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
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