Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:17 AM - Mini-EFIS Panel Considerations ()
2. 06:46 AM - Re: Re: Battery Monitor - Bogus or Brilliant? (Brian Lloyd)
3. 06:56 AM - Re: Mini-EFIS Panel Considerations (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
4. 08:04 AM - Z-13/8 Question (Dennis Johnson)
5. 08:07 AM - Re: Solid state dimmer control (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 08:40 AM - Re: Re: Battery Monitor - Bogus or Brilliant? (Jon Goguen)
7. 09:30 AM - Re: Re: Battery Monitor - Bogus or Brilliant? (Brian Lloyd)
8. 10:00 AM - Re: Re: Battery Monitor - Bogus or Brilliant? (Jim Wickert)
9. 12:19 PM - Re: Battery Monitor - Bogus or Brilliant? (Eric M. Jones)
10. 01:35 PM - Re: Z-13/8 Question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
11. 03:07 PM - Sort of related to the Z-13/8 Question (glaesers)
12. 03:37 PM - Load allocation with dual battery system (Jon Goguen)
13. 05:46 PM - Re: Jon's Kitfox/912S (Rodney Dunham)
14. 06:52 PM - Z-24 Nusance trips (Mike Holland)
15. 07:09 PM - Off-Topic Question (J. Mcculley)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Mini-EFIS Panel Considerations |
INNOCENT GLOBAL 0.1117 1.0000 -1.3229
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <bakerocb@cox.net>
Responding to an AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "Hinde,
Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
<<.........skip.........Note the EFIS provides the altitude encoder
function......skip....>>
12/15/2005
Hello Frank, Here is a bit of a gotcha to consider. Every two years one must
get the FAR 91.411 and 91.413 inspections, commonly called "VFR certs" and
"IFR certs".
These checks can be made in the airplane, but many shops much prefer to have
the altimeter and encoder brought into the shop for checking out in the test
chamber. Then all that has to be done at the airplane is the static system
and transponder check after the altimeter and encoder are reinstalled.
Removing and reinstalling the altimeter and encoder can be a real nuisance
and costly if you have the shop do it. How easy is it going to be to remove
and reinstall the EFIS yourself?
OC
PS: The last time I insisted that the shop technician do the job in the
airplane (in very cold weather, but inside the hangar) he "couldn't get the
encoder to calibrate at the low end". He then proceeded to remove both the
altimeter and the encoder and took them into the nice warm toasty shop where
the encoder checked out perfectly in the chamber with no adjustment what
ever. I had to pay significant bucks because he did the extra work of
removing and reinstalling the encoder and the altimeter. Next time I'll go
back to removing and reinstalling those two items myself as I have done
previously and save that extra cost.
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Battery Monitor - Bogus or Brilliant? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Speedy11@aol.com wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Speedy11@aol.com
>
> "If you want to calculate Peukert's exponent for your battery, discharge
> it using two different currents and take the time for each. You then
> plug the two currents and the two times into the following equation:
>
>
> n = (log t2 - log t1) / (log I1 - log I2)
>
> Once you know n you can calculate the capacity of the battery over a
> wide range of discharge currents. Try to pick two discharge rates that
> bracket your normal usage."
>
>
> Couldn't the battery manufacturer do the tests and provide Peukert's exponent
> for a particular type of battery?
Yes, but ... (there is always a but)
It seems that battery manufacturers decide ahead of time what their
batteries will be used for. Those made for deep-cycle use will often
have a table that gives discharge times for different rates. Those that
are intended for starting or for "dual-use" won't.
For example, look at the Deka "Dominator" gel-cell batteries at:
http://www.eastpenn-deka.com/products/marine.html
If you look at their data sheet they give discharge times in minutes at
discharge rates ranging from 75A down to 5A. Likewise they give AH
ratings at different discharge rates. This is how I got the values to
calculate Peukert's exponent for my battery energy monitor.
But you will also find that if you look at the spec sheets for the
starting batteries they don't give this information. There you only get
numbers like cold-cranking amps, etc. Unfortunately they don't give the
discharge curves for their dual-use AGM batteries.
Also on that page is a link to their "Sealed Gel/AGM Technical Manual".
If you plan to use a sealed lead-acid battery, either AGM or gel, you
will want to read this. Sure Penn-Deka wrote it for their batteries but
the information is applicable to all sealed lead-acid batteries (once
you get past the marketing hype on how much better their technology is
over their competitors).
--
Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 3
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| Subject: | Mini-EFIS Panel Considerations |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Hi OC,
As far as removal goes it's a piece of cake...simply a screw on the
front...As long as the thing has power/ground and a pressure it will
show altitude.
If I was faced with having to remove the EFIS I would probably make up a
D sub with the apprpriate wires to save the shop any (expensive)
confusion...:)
In any case, I thought the 2 year VFR cert was a transponder only
test...And IFR was the encoder/pitot/static test??
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
bakerocb@cox.net
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Mini-EFIS Panel Considerations
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <bakerocb@cox.net>
Responding to an AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "Hinde,
Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
<<.........skip.........Note the EFIS provides the altitude encoder
function......skip....>>
12/15/2005
Hello Frank, Here is a bit of a gotcha to consider. Every two years one
must get the FAR 91.411 and 91.413 inspections, commonly called "VFR
certs" and "IFR certs".
These checks can be made in the airplane, but many shops much prefer to
have the altimeter and encoder brought into the shop for checking out in
the test chamber. Then all that has to be done at the airplane is the
static system and transponder check after the altimeter and encoder are
reinstalled.
Removing and reinstalling the altimeter and encoder can be a real
nuisance and costly if you have the shop do it. How easy is it going to
be to remove and reinstall the EFIS yourself?
OC
PS: The last time I insisted that the shop technician do the job in the
airplane (in very cold weather, but inside the hangar) he "couldn't get
the encoder to calibrate at the low end". He then proceeded to remove
both the altimeter and the encoder and took them into the nice warm
toasty shop where the encoder checked out perfectly in the chamber with
no adjustment what ever. I had to pay significant bucks because he did
the extra work of removing and reinstalling the encoder and the
altimeter. Next time I'll go back to removing and reinstalling those two
items myself as I have done previously and save that extra cost.
Message 4
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dennis Johnson" <pinetownd@volcano.net>
I have a question about wiring the main power distribution bus.
Composite airplane
Engine in front
Battery behind the seat
Z-13/8 all electric on a budget, with "over-weight" endurance bus
Z-13 shows the feeder for the main power distribution bus coming off the battery
contactor and the alternator B lead connecting to the starter contactor. I
understand that one of the benefits of this architecture is that it tends to keep
alternator noise out of the things on the instrument panel.
In my case, the starter contactor is on the firewall and the battery is behind
the seat. I can save weight by using less of the heavy 4AWG bus feeder wire if
I connect the main power distribution bus to the same terminal on the starter
contactor that the alternator connects to instead of running it back behind
the seat to the battery contactor. However, does this tend to reduce the noise
reduction benefits of feeding the main bus from the battery contactor?
Thanks so much for all your help,
Dennis Johnson
Lancair Legacy #257, starting wiring next month
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Solid state dimmer control |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 02:21 PM 12/14/2005 -0600, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill and Marsha"
><docyukon@ptcnet.net>
>
> Bob and others On page 12-17 of aeroelectrics manual Bob shows an
>example of dimmer control useing solid state circuitry. Can anyone tell me
>the component values used for this ckt?
>I would like to use this for my Pulsar III.
There are lots of options. Several folks offer ready to install
devices but if you're of a mind to gain experience, check
the data at:
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Dimmers
There are documents that describe construction and
installation of several configurations. The data package
covers 1.5A dimmers (LM317), 3.0A dimmers (LM350) and
5A dimmers (LM338). Keep in mind that the larger the
dimmer, the larger the heat sink.
Most dimming applications will use the smaller device
which is described in the DIY article which was published
a few years back in Sport Aviation.
Bob . . .
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Battery Monitor - Bogus or Brilliant? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jon Goguen <jon.goguen@umassmed.edu>
Brian,
I like your battery monitor suggestion. You implied the the Xantrex
XBM can monitor two batteries. Is this correct? I looked at the data
sheet, and couldn't find ant indication that it does so. Also, the
data sheet says minimum battery capaicity is 20 Ah, which is
unfortunate because I plan to use two 17s. Is there something similar
to the Xantrex that could be used?
Jon
Jon Goguen
jon.goguen@umassmed.edu
Central Massachusetts
Kitfox Series V Rotax 912S / N456JG (reserved)
Complete except for electrics and avionics
"Nothing worth knowing can be understood by the human mind"
--Woody Allen
On Dec 14, 2005, at 11:12 PM, Brian Lloyd wrote:
> I still hold it is overkill. But for $200 a box that replaces a
> voltmeter and two ammeters to monitor two batteries is probably a
> pretty
> reasonable thing to do if you have the real estate in the panel.
>
> --
> Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
> brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
> +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
>
> I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . .
> .
> - Antoine de Saint-Exupery
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Battery Monitor - Bogus or Brilliant? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Jon Goguen wrote:
> I like your battery monitor suggestion. You implied the the Xantrex
> XBM can monitor two batteries. Is this correct? I looked at the data
> sheet, and couldn't find ant indication that it does so. Also, the
> data sheet says minimum battery capaicity is 20 Ah, which is
> unfortunate because I plan to use two 17s. Is there something similar
> to the Xantrex that could be used?
It has been some time since I have looked at the Xantrex. Ah, I was
thinking of the Link 20.
Disclaimer: I am working from memory here and could be wrong. Go read
the manufacturer's lit for accurate information. (http://www.xantrex.com)
--
Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Battery Monitor - Bogus or Brilliant? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jim Wickert <jimw_btg@earthlink.net>
The Xantrex XBM seems to be a upper level monitor that can provide a RS232 data
output however the Xantrex Link 10 and 20 will monitor and report status of one
and two batteries.
See attached
Jim Wickert
Vision 159 Vair
-----Original Message-----
From: Jon Goguen <jon.goguen@umassmed.edu>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Battery Monitor - Bogus or Brilliant?
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jon Goguen <jon.goguen@umassmed.edu>
Brian,
I like your battery monitor suggestion. You implied the the Xantrex
XBM can monitor two batteries. Is this correct? I looked at the data
sheet, and couldn't find ant indication that it does so. Also, the
data sheet says minimum battery capaicity is 20 Ah, which is
unfortunate because I plan to use two 17s. Is there something similar
to the Xantrex that could be used?
Jon
Jon Goguen
jon.goguen@umassmed.edu
Central Massachusetts
Kitfox Series V Rotax 912S / N456JG (reserved)
Complete except for electrics and avionics
"Nothing worth knowing can be understood by the human mind"
--Woody Allen
On Dec 14, 2005, at 11:12 PM, Brian Lloyd wrote:
> I still hold it is overkill. But for $200 a box that replaces a
> voltmeter and two ammeters to monitor two batteries is probably a
> pretty
> reasonable thing to do if you have the real estate in the panel.
>
> --
> Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
> brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
> +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
>
> I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . .
> .
> - Antoine de Saint-Exupery
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Battery Monitor - Bogus or Brilliant? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
The ones sold by Victron Energy are apparently made by Xantrex. They have tons
of information on the site but you'll never find it because of their ABYSMALLY
scrambled web page (that still looks quite professional) so be aware that if
you can't find something--go back to Google and start again. Try--
http://www.xantrex.com/support/web/id/1006/support1.asp
There's one XBM being auctioned on eBay right now....$73 and 2 days to go.
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
(508) 764-2072
"The man who carries a cat by the tail learns something that can be learned in
no other way."
- Mark Twain
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Z-13/8 Question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 08:02 AM 12/15/2005 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dennis Johnson"
><pinetownd@volcano.net>
>
>I have a question about wiring the main power distribution bus.
>
>Composite airplane
>Engine in front
>Battery behind the seat
>Z-13/8 all electric on a budget, with "over-weight" endurance bus
>
>Z-13 shows the feeder for the main power distribution bus coming off the
>battery contactor and the alternator B lead connecting to the starter
>contactor. I understand that one of the benefits of this architecture is
>that it tends to keep alternator noise out of the things on the instrument
>panel.
>
>In my case, the starter contactor is on the firewall and the battery is
>behind the seat. I can save weight by using less of the heavy 4AWG bus
>feeder wire if I connect the main power distribution bus to the same
>terminal on the starter contactor that the alternator connects to instead
>of running it back behind the seat to the battery contactor. However,
>does this tend to reduce the noise reduction benefits of feeding the main
>bus from the battery contactor?
You can tie major system feeders into either battery or
starter contactor . . . whichever is closer to the accessory
being wired.
Bob . . .
Message 11
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| Subject: | Sort of related to the Z-13/8 Question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "glaesers" <glaesers@wideopenwest.com>
Bob,
I have a similar situation with a Z-19 architecture and rear mounted
batteries. I was thinking of putting an external splice on the heavy wire
behind the IP, which will make for a pretty short bus feed, rather than a
much longer run through the firewall to the contactor. Is that something
you would recommend or discourage?
Dennis Glaeser
RV7A
Message 12
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| Subject: | Load allocation with dual battery system |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jon Goguen <jon.goguen@umassmed.edu>
We're working on a two-battery two-alternator system, which is no doubt
more complex than we need, but we got to it by the following route.
1) Not enough capacity in the internal Rotax PM alternator, so add
another alternator.
2) The FAA requirement that all-electric certified ships have a
independent electrical systems for primary and back-up gyros seemed
reasonable.
3) I liked Bob's strategy of replacing one of two identical batteries
on a regular basis.
So, we're planning a Z14-like system with two 17 Ah batteries and a
small ND alternator (40 amps) to supplement the Rotax dynamo. I've
been giving some thought to how to dive the load between primary and
secondary systems. (The secondary system is run by the dynamo.) My
notion is to allocate the following to the secondary system: TC, all
direct battery buss loads, position lights, and cranking. This makes
the TC independent of the main electrcal system and prevents draining
of the main battery by things that run with the master off. Using the
secondary for cranking may also give warning of a failing battery,
especially if I pay attention to voltage during cranking as Bob
suggests. I will have a cross-feed, so I can crank with both batteries
if needed. This arrangement takes some strain off the main battery,
which should should rarely see much of a discharge cycle.
Comments?
Thanks!
Jon
Jon Goguen
jon.goguen@umassmed.edu
Central Massachusetts
Kitfox Series V Rotax 912S / N456JG (reserved)
Complete except for electrics and avionics
"Nothing worth knowing can be understood by the human mind"
--Woody Allen
Message 13
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| Subject: | RE: Jon's Kitfox/912S |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rodney Dunham" <rdunhamtn@hotmail.com>
Jon,
Well, since you invited comments...
What in the world are you going to be doing with a Kitfox/912S that would
require such a beefy electrical system???
Rodney in Tennessee
Do not archive
Message 14
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| Subject: | Z-24 Nusance trips |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mike Holland" <hollandm@pacbell.net>
Bob etal.
Sorry I've been off the list awhile, having too much fun flying. As one who faithfully
followed the recommendations at the time for a Vans 60amp internally
regulated alternator I've have very few problems with the system with one exception,
what I describe as "nuisance" trips since they occur only very infrequently
yet often enough they are or could become a problem.
My set up is Z13 + Z24 with an 8amp B&C replacing the left mag. LSE & slick ignitions,
Odyssey battery about 2 years old but with few flight hours, battery
tender maintained. System charging voltages 14.5 volts indicated in flight at
about an 8amp load without strobes and 12 amps with strobes. The alternator
is hardly breathing.
What happens occasionally is a main alternator trip under the following under the
following circumstances; touch and goes or rapid changes in power settings
or fluctuating power and load conditions. Such as occur with pattern work in
class D which involves some radio work as power is changed rapidly.
Under these conditions I sometimes discover the low voltage warning light and discover
that the OVM has tripped the main alternator field. Power to idle rest
the breaker and alternator comes back on-line and everything's hunky dory until
it happens again. After 55+ hours this has happened about a dozen times.
more or less. Most annoying.
But before I start remodeling my entire wiring system or investing $800 in a new
alternator regulator, I thought I check in to see what updates and mods are
on the way that may solve this? Should I immediately reconnect my B-lead to the
battery and thus forego the Z24 relay and crowbar protection? So far I haven't
detected any Alternator damage resulting from the in-flight shut downs and
restarts.
Thanks
Mike Holland
RV9A
N192MH
Dana Point, CA
Message 15
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| Subject: | Off-Topic Question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "J. Mcculley" <mcculleyja@starpower.net>
This is not directly related to aviation, but I'm sure there are some
people on this list who will find my question pretty elementary.
On most older TV sets, when plugging into the installed audio outlets
for external speakers,headsets,recorders,etc, the TV's internal speaker
becomes inoperative. Some newer sets provide a screen display allowing a
person to choose listening to the internal speaker while a second person
listens to headsets. This is useful when the volume levels need to be
different due to hearing deficiency of one of the persons. Isn't there a
simple way to re-wire the older TV audio output line such that the
output can be fed to both the internal speaker and the headsets
simultaneously? Any help will be appreciated.
Jim McCulley
180 HP Tailwind
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