---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 12/15/05: 15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:17 AM - Mini-EFIS Panel Considerations () 2. 06:46 AM - Re: Re: Battery Monitor - Bogus or Brilliant? (Brian Lloyd) 3. 06:56 AM - Re: Mini-EFIS Panel Considerations (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 4. 08:04 AM - Z-13/8 Question (Dennis Johnson) 5. 08:07 AM - Re: Solid state dimmer control (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 08:40 AM - Re: Re: Battery Monitor - Bogus or Brilliant? (Jon Goguen) 7. 09:30 AM - Re: Re: Battery Monitor - Bogus or Brilliant? (Brian Lloyd) 8. 10:00 AM - Re: Re: Battery Monitor - Bogus or Brilliant? (Jim Wickert) 9. 12:19 PM - Re: Battery Monitor - Bogus or Brilliant? (Eric M. Jones) 10. 01:35 PM - Re: Z-13/8 Question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 11. 03:07 PM - Sort of related to the Z-13/8 Question (glaesers) 12. 03:37 PM - Load allocation with dual battery system (Jon Goguen) 13. 05:46 PM - Re: Jon's Kitfox/912S (Rodney Dunham) 14. 06:52 PM - Z-24 Nusance trips (Mike Holland) 15. 07:09 PM - Off-Topic Question (J. Mcculley) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:17:13 AM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: Mini-EFIS Panel Considerations INNOCENT GLOBAL 0.1117 1.0000 -1.3229 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Responding to an AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <<.........skip.........Note the EFIS provides the altitude encoder function......skip....>> 12/15/2005 Hello Frank, Here is a bit of a gotcha to consider. Every two years one must get the FAR 91.411 and 91.413 inspections, commonly called "VFR certs" and "IFR certs". These checks can be made in the airplane, but many shops much prefer to have the altimeter and encoder brought into the shop for checking out in the test chamber. Then all that has to be done at the airplane is the static system and transponder check after the altimeter and encoder are reinstalled. Removing and reinstalling the altimeter and encoder can be a real nuisance and costly if you have the shop do it. How easy is it going to be to remove and reinstall the EFIS yourself? OC PS: The last time I insisted that the shop technician do the job in the airplane (in very cold weather, but inside the hangar) he "couldn't get the encoder to calibrate at the low end". He then proceeded to remove both the altimeter and the encoder and took them into the nice warm toasty shop where the encoder checked out perfectly in the chamber with no adjustment what ever. I had to pay significant bucks because he did the extra work of removing and reinstalling the encoder and the altimeter. Next time I'll go back to removing and reinstalling those two items myself as I have done previously and save that extra cost. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:46:45 AM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Battery Monitor - Bogus or Brilliant? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd Speedy11@aol.com wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Speedy11@aol.com > > "If you want to calculate Peukert's exponent for your battery, discharge > it using two different currents and take the time for each. You then > plug the two currents and the two times into the following equation: > > > n = (log t2 - log t1) / (log I1 - log I2) > > Once you know n you can calculate the capacity of the battery over a > wide range of discharge currents. Try to pick two discharge rates that > bracket your normal usage." > > > Couldn't the battery manufacturer do the tests and provide Peukert's exponent > for a particular type of battery? Yes, but ... (there is always a but) It seems that battery manufacturers decide ahead of time what their batteries will be used for. Those made for deep-cycle use will often have a table that gives discharge times for different rates. Those that are intended for starting or for "dual-use" won't. For example, look at the Deka "Dominator" gel-cell batteries at: http://www.eastpenn-deka.com/products/marine.html If you look at their data sheet they give discharge times in minutes at discharge rates ranging from 75A down to 5A. Likewise they give AH ratings at different discharge rates. This is how I got the values to calculate Peukert's exponent for my battery energy monitor. But you will also find that if you look at the spec sheets for the starting batteries they don't give this information. There you only get numbers like cold-cranking amps, etc. Unfortunately they don't give the discharge curves for their dual-use AGM batteries. Also on that page is a link to their "Sealed Gel/AGM Technical Manual". If you plan to use a sealed lead-acid battery, either AGM or gel, you will want to read this. Sure Penn-Deka wrote it for their batteries but the information is applicable to all sealed lead-acid batteries (once you get past the marketing hype on how much better their technology is over their competitors). -- Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr. brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630 +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . - Antoine de Saint-Exupery ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:56:17 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Mini-EFIS Panel Considerations From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Hi OC, As far as removal goes it's a piece of cake...simply a screw on the front...As long as the thing has power/ground and a pressure it will show altitude. If I was faced with having to remove the EFIS I would probably make up a D sub with the apprpriate wires to save the shop any (expensive) confusion...:) In any case, I thought the 2 year VFR cert was a transponder only test...And IFR was the encoder/pitot/static test?? Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bakerocb@cox.net Subject: AeroElectric-List: Mini-EFIS Panel Considerations --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Responding to an AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <<.........skip.........Note the EFIS provides the altitude encoder function......skip....>> 12/15/2005 Hello Frank, Here is a bit of a gotcha to consider. Every two years one must get the FAR 91.411 and 91.413 inspections, commonly called "VFR certs" and "IFR certs". These checks can be made in the airplane, but many shops much prefer to have the altimeter and encoder brought into the shop for checking out in the test chamber. Then all that has to be done at the airplane is the static system and transponder check after the altimeter and encoder are reinstalled. Removing and reinstalling the altimeter and encoder can be a real nuisance and costly if you have the shop do it. How easy is it going to be to remove and reinstall the EFIS yourself? OC PS: The last time I insisted that the shop technician do the job in the airplane (in very cold weather, but inside the hangar) he "couldn't get the encoder to calibrate at the low end". He then proceeded to remove both the altimeter and the encoder and took them into the nice warm toasty shop where the encoder checked out perfectly in the chamber with no adjustment what ever. I had to pay significant bucks because he did the extra work of removing and reinstalling the encoder and the altimeter. Next time I'll go back to removing and reinstalling those two items myself as I have done previously and save that extra cost. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:04:05 AM PST US From: "Dennis Johnson" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Z-13/8 Question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dennis Johnson" I have a question about wiring the main power distribution bus. Composite airplane Engine in front Battery behind the seat Z-13/8 all electric on a budget, with "over-weight" endurance bus Z-13 shows the feeder for the main power distribution bus coming off the battery contactor and the alternator B lead connecting to the starter contactor. I understand that one of the benefits of this architecture is that it tends to keep alternator noise out of the things on the instrument panel. In my case, the starter contactor is on the firewall and the battery is behind the seat. I can save weight by using less of the heavy 4AWG bus feeder wire if I connect the main power distribution bus to the same terminal on the starter contactor that the alternator connects to instead of running it back behind the seat to the battery contactor. However, does this tend to reduce the noise reduction benefits of feeding the main bus from the battery contactor? Thanks so much for all your help, Dennis Johnson Lancair Legacy #257, starting wiring next month ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:07:50 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Solid state dimmer control --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 02:21 PM 12/14/2005 -0600, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill and Marsha" > > > Bob and others On page 12-17 of aeroelectrics manual Bob shows an >example of dimmer control useing solid state circuitry. Can anyone tell me >the component values used for this ckt? >I would like to use this for my Pulsar III. There are lots of options. Several folks offer ready to install devices but if you're of a mind to gain experience, check the data at: http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Dimmers There are documents that describe construction and installation of several configurations. The data package covers 1.5A dimmers (LM317), 3.0A dimmers (LM350) and 5A dimmers (LM338). Keep in mind that the larger the dimmer, the larger the heat sink. Most dimming applications will use the smaller device which is described in the DIY article which was published a few years back in Sport Aviation. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:40:36 AM PST US From: Jon Goguen Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Battery Monitor - Bogus or Brilliant? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jon Goguen Brian, I like your battery monitor suggestion. You implied the the Xantrex XBM can monitor two batteries. Is this correct? I looked at the data sheet, and couldn't find ant indication that it does so. Also, the data sheet says minimum battery capaicity is 20 Ah, which is unfortunate because I plan to use two 17s. Is there something similar to the Xantrex that could be used? Jon Jon Goguen jon.goguen@umassmed.edu Central Massachusetts Kitfox Series V Rotax 912S / N456JG (reserved) Complete except for electrics and avionics "Nothing worth knowing can be understood by the human mind" --Woody Allen On Dec 14, 2005, at 11:12 PM, Brian Lloyd wrote: > I still hold it is overkill. But for $200 a box that replaces a > voltmeter and two ammeters to monitor two batteries is probably a > pretty > reasonable thing to do if you have the real estate in the panel. > > -- > Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr. > brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630 > +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) > > I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . > . > - Antoine de Saint-Exupery > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:30:27 AM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Battery Monitor - Bogus or Brilliant? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd Jon Goguen wrote: > I like your battery monitor suggestion. You implied the the Xantrex > XBM can monitor two batteries. Is this correct? I looked at the data > sheet, and couldn't find ant indication that it does so. Also, the > data sheet says minimum battery capaicity is 20 Ah, which is > unfortunate because I plan to use two 17s. Is there something similar > to the Xantrex that could be used? It has been some time since I have looked at the Xantrex. Ah, I was thinking of the Link 20. Disclaimer: I am working from memory here and could be wrong. Go read the manufacturer's lit for accurate information. (http://www.xantrex.com) -- Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr. brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630 +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . - Antoine de Saint-Exupery ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:00:41 AM PST US From: Jim Wickert Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Battery Monitor - Bogus or Brilliant? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jim Wickert The Xantrex XBM seems to be a upper level monitor that can provide a RS232 data output however the Xantrex Link 10 and 20 will monitor and report status of one and two batteries. See attached Jim Wickert Vision 159 Vair -----Original Message----- From: Jon Goguen Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Battery Monitor - Bogus or Brilliant? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jon Goguen Brian, I like your battery monitor suggestion. You implied the the Xantrex XBM can monitor two batteries. Is this correct? I looked at the data sheet, and couldn't find ant indication that it does so. Also, the data sheet says minimum battery capaicity is 20 Ah, which is unfortunate because I plan to use two 17s. Is there something similar to the Xantrex that could be used? Jon Jon Goguen jon.goguen@umassmed.edu Central Massachusetts Kitfox Series V Rotax 912S / N456JG (reserved) Complete except for electrics and avionics "Nothing worth knowing can be understood by the human mind" --Woody Allen On Dec 14, 2005, at 11:12 PM, Brian Lloyd wrote: > I still hold it is overkill. But for $200 a box that replaces a > voltmeter and two ammeters to monitor two batteries is probably a > pretty > reasonable thing to do if you have the real estate in the panel. > > -- > Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr. > brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630 > +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) > > I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . > . > - Antoine de Saint-Exupery > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:19:42 PM PST US From: "Eric M. Jones" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Battery Monitor - Bogus or Brilliant? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" The ones sold by Victron Energy are apparently made by Xantrex. They have tons of information on the site but you'll never find it because of their ABYSMALLY scrambled web page (that still looks quite professional) so be aware that if you can't find something--go back to Google and start again. Try-- http://www.xantrex.com/support/web/id/1006/support1.asp There's one XBM being auctioned on eBay right now....$73 and 2 days to go. Regards, Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge MA 01550-2705 (508) 764-2072 "The man who carries a cat by the tail learns something that can be learned in no other way." - Mark Twain ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:35:55 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-13/8 Question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 08:02 AM 12/15/2005 -0800, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dennis Johnson" > > >I have a question about wiring the main power distribution bus. > >Composite airplane >Engine in front >Battery behind the seat >Z-13/8 all electric on a budget, with "over-weight" endurance bus > >Z-13 shows the feeder for the main power distribution bus coming off the >battery contactor and the alternator B lead connecting to the starter >contactor. I understand that one of the benefits of this architecture is >that it tends to keep alternator noise out of the things on the instrument >panel. > >In my case, the starter contactor is on the firewall and the battery is >behind the seat. I can save weight by using less of the heavy 4AWG bus >feeder wire if I connect the main power distribution bus to the same >terminal on the starter contactor that the alternator connects to instead >of running it back behind the seat to the battery contactor. However, >does this tend to reduce the noise reduction benefits of feeding the main >bus from the battery contactor? You can tie major system feeders into either battery or starter contactor . . . whichever is closer to the accessory being wired. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:07:41 PM PST US From: "glaesers" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Sort of related to the Z-13/8 Question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "glaesers" Bob, I have a similar situation with a Z-19 architecture and rear mounted batteries. I was thinking of putting an external splice on the heavy wire behind the IP, which will make for a pretty short bus feed, rather than a much longer run through the firewall to the contactor. Is that something you would recommend or discourage? Dennis Glaeser RV7A ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:37:51 PM PST US From: Jon Goguen Subject: AeroElectric-List: Load allocation with dual battery system --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jon Goguen We're working on a two-battery two-alternator system, which is no doubt more complex than we need, but we got to it by the following route. 1) Not enough capacity in the internal Rotax PM alternator, so add another alternator. 2) The FAA requirement that all-electric certified ships have a independent electrical systems for primary and back-up gyros seemed reasonable. 3) I liked Bob's strategy of replacing one of two identical batteries on a regular basis. So, we're planning a Z14-like system with two 17 Ah batteries and a small ND alternator (40 amps) to supplement the Rotax dynamo. I've been giving some thought to how to dive the load between primary and secondary systems. (The secondary system is run by the dynamo.) My notion is to allocate the following to the secondary system: TC, all direct battery buss loads, position lights, and cranking. This makes the TC independent of the main electrcal system and prevents draining of the main battery by things that run with the master off. Using the secondary for cranking may also give warning of a failing battery, especially if I pay attention to voltage during cranking as Bob suggests. I will have a cross-feed, so I can crank with both batteries if needed. This arrangement takes some strain off the main battery, which should should rarely see much of a discharge cycle. Comments? Thanks! Jon Jon Goguen jon.goguen@umassmed.edu Central Massachusetts Kitfox Series V Rotax 912S / N456JG (reserved) Complete except for electrics and avionics "Nothing worth knowing can be understood by the human mind" --Woody Allen ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:46:47 PM PST US From: "Rodney Dunham" Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Jon's Kitfox/912S --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rodney Dunham" Jon, Well, since you invited comments... What in the world are you going to be doing with a Kitfox/912S that would require such a beefy electrical system??? Rodney in Tennessee Do not archive ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:52:31 PM PST US From: "Mike Holland" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Z-24 Nusance trips --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mike Holland" Bob etal. Sorry I've been off the list awhile, having too much fun flying. As one who faithfully followed the recommendations at the time for a Vans 60amp internally regulated alternator I've have very few problems with the system with one exception, what I describe as "nuisance" trips since they occur only very infrequently yet often enough they are or could become a problem. My set up is Z13 + Z24 with an 8amp B&C replacing the left mag. LSE & slick ignitions, Odyssey battery about 2 years old but with few flight hours, battery tender maintained. System charging voltages 14.5 volts indicated in flight at about an 8amp load without strobes and 12 amps with strobes. The alternator is hardly breathing. What happens occasionally is a main alternator trip under the following under the following circumstances; touch and goes or rapid changes in power settings or fluctuating power and load conditions. Such as occur with pattern work in class D which involves some radio work as power is changed rapidly. Under these conditions I sometimes discover the low voltage warning light and discover that the OVM has tripped the main alternator field. Power to idle rest the breaker and alternator comes back on-line and everything's hunky dory until it happens again. After 55+ hours this has happened about a dozen times. more or less. Most annoying. But before I start remodeling my entire wiring system or investing $800 in a new alternator regulator, I thought I check in to see what updates and mods are on the way that may solve this? Should I immediately reconnect my B-lead to the battery and thus forego the Z24 relay and crowbar protection? So far I haven't detected any Alternator damage resulting from the in-flight shut downs and restarts. Thanks Mike Holland RV9A N192MH Dana Point, CA ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:09:42 PM PST US From: "J. Mcculley" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Off-Topic Question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "J. Mcculley" This is not directly related to aviation, but I'm sure there are some people on this list who will find my question pretty elementary. On most older TV sets, when plugging into the installed audio outlets for external speakers,headsets,recorders,etc, the TV's internal speaker becomes inoperative. Some newer sets provide a screen display allowing a person to choose listening to the internal speaker while a second person listens to headsets. This is useful when the volume levels need to be different due to hearing deficiency of one of the persons. Isn't there a simple way to re-wire the older TV audio output line such that the output can be fed to both the internal speaker and the headsets simultaneously? Any help will be appreciated. Jim McCulley 180 HP Tailwind