---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 12/16/05: 31 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:43 AM - Preventive Maintenance () 2. 06:34 AM - Re: Z-24 Nusance trips (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 3. 06:36 AM - Re: Load allocation with dual battery system (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 06:42 AM - Mini-EFIS Panel Considerations () 5. 09:11 AM - Re: Off-Topic Question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 09:14 AM - Re: Sort of related to the Z-13/8 Question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 10:00 AM - Re: Off-Topic Question (luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky)) 8. 10:24 AM - TC regulator needed for FWF RG battery? (sportav8r@aol.com) 9. 12:27 PM - Re: Converting IR to ER (Tim Lewis) 10. 03:00 PM - Re: Re: Jon's Kitfox/912S (Jon Goguen) 11. 03:03 PM - Re: Load allocation with dual battery system (Jon Goguen) 12. 03:22 PM - Re: Re: Jon's Kitfox/912S (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 13. 03:58 PM - Re: Z-24 Nusance trips (Mike Holland) 14. 04:21 PM - Re: Re: Jon's Kitfox/912S (Jon Goguen) 15. 04:21 PM - Re: Re: Jon's Kitfox/912S (Kevin Horton) 16. 05:18 PM - WX-900 Antenna (Richard Reynolds) 17. 06:48 PM - Good "no nick" wire stripper? (Craig Payne) 18. 07:06 PM - Re: Good "no nick" wire stripper? (Dave Morris \) 19. 07:16 PM - four-wire 28V OV protection relay (Brian Lloyd) 20. 07:19 PM - Re: Re: Jon's Kitfox/912S (JTORTHO@aol.com) 21. 08:06 PM - Re: Good "no nick" wire stripper? (Stein Bruch) 22. 08:13 PM - Re: four-wire 28V OV protection relay (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 23. 08:16 PM - Re: Re: Z-24 Nusance trips (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 24. 08:43 PM - Re: Good "no nick" wire stripper? (Craig Payne) 25. 08:51 PM - Re: Re: Jon's Kitfox/912S (Jon Goguen) 26. 09:04 PM - Re: Good "no nick" wire stripper? (Jon Goguen) 27. 09:09 PM - Re: Good "no nick" wire stripper? (Bob White) 28. 09:21 PM - Re: Good "no nick" wire stripper? (Stein Bruch) 29. 09:21 PM - Re: Off-Topic Question (J. Mcculley) 30. 10:51 PM - Re: Good "no nick" wire stripper? (Craig Payne) 31. 10:56 PM - Re: Good "no nick" wire stripper? (Craig Payne) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:43:48 AM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: Preventive Maintenance INNOCENT GLOBAL 0.0969 1.0000 -1.4111 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Here's a question asked by an AOPA member who contacted our aviation services staff through the AOPA Pilot Information Center. Test your knowledge. Question: I have an IFR-certified GPS in my aircraft. Is it required that I make an entry into my aircraft's maintenance logbook every time I update the database? Answer: Yes. The FAA, under 14 CFR Part 43, Appendix A, defines what is considered to be a major alteration, major repair, and preventive maintenance. Updating a GPS database qualifies as preventive maintenance that a person holding at least a private pilot certificate may perform in this section. The FAA, under 14 CFR 91.407(a)(2), states that a maintenance record entry must be made for any aircraft that is approved for return to service after undergoing preventive maintenance. The entry should include, as stated in 14 CFR 43.9(a), the date of completion of the work performed, description of the work completed, your signature, pilot certificate grade, and certificate number. For additional information on maintenance logbook entries, see AOPA Online. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:34:34 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-24 Nusance trips --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 06:51 PM 12/15/2005 -0800, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mike Holland" > >Bob etal. > >Sorry I've been off the list awhile, having too much fun flying. As one >who faithfully followed the recommendations at the time for a Vans 60amp >internally regulated alternator I've have very few problems with the >system with one exception, what I describe as "nuisance" trips since they >occur only very infrequently yet often enough they are or could become a >problem. > >My set up is Z13 + Z24 with an 8amp B&C replacing the left mag LSE & slick >ignitions, Odyssey battery about 2 years old but with few flight hours, >battery tender maintained. System charging voltages 14.5 volts indicated >in flight at about an 8amp load without strobes and 12 amps with >strobes. The alternator is hardly breathing. > >What happens occasionally is a main alternator trip under the following >under the following circumstances; touch and goes or rapid changes in >power settings or fluctuating power and load conditions. Such as occur >with pattern work in class D which involves some radio work as power is >changed rapidly. > >Under these conditions I sometimes discover the low voltage warning light >and discover that the OVM has tripped the main alternator field. Power to >idle rest the breaker and alternator comes back on-line and everything's >hunky dory until it happens again. After 55+ hours this has happened >about a dozen times. more or less. Most annoying. Is your OV module purchased or DIY project? If purchased, how long have you had it? If DIY, did you get the latest mod incorporated? See: http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Crowbar_OV_Protection/Crowbar_C.pdf >But before I start remodeling my entire wiring system or investing $800 in >a new alternator regulator, I thought I check in to see what updates and >mods are on the way that may solve this? Should I immediately reconnect >my B-lead to the battery and thus forego the Z24 relay and crowbar >protection? So far I haven't detected any Alternator damage resulting >from the in-flight shut downs and restarts. Thousands of the crowbar ov protection systems are in service with a handful of reported difficulties. ALL problem incidences reported to us were "curable". If you've already had this many nuisance trips and the alternator wasn't hurt, you're good to go with what's installed after the nuisance tripping is fixed. I have no way to know how many Z-24 systems are installed since we didn't sell "kits" specific to the purpose. My sense is that the vast majority of the installations are fine . . . but some alternators are vulnerable to the load-dump damage precipitated by opening the b-lead while loaded. Without doing a huge research project to identify root cause and suspect alternators, I decided to "enhance" the concept such that no alternators would be at-risk irrespective of pedigree. If you have a purchased OV module, I'd like to get my hands on it. Readers need to keep in mind that there are two, completely separate issues here. (1) nuisance tripping of the ov sensor which can and has occurred with all kinds of circuits. I designed and manufactured OV relays for the TC world for decades and from time to time, unanticipated conditions in the field caused us to revisit the design. (2) vulnerability of some alternators to what amounts to a forced load-dump scenario when the Z-24 b-lead contactor is opened for any reason be it nuisance trip or pilot operation of the alternator ON/OFF switch. You've demonstrated that (2) is not an issue for your system and we need to see what's needed to stop the nuisance trips. Thank you for bringing this to my attention. Bob . . . Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:36:14 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Load allocation with dual battery system --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 06:36 PM 12/15/2005 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jon Goguen > >We're working on a two-battery two-alternator system, which is no doubt >more complex than we need, but we got to it by the following route. > >1) Not enough capacity in the internal Rotax PM alternator, so add >another alternator. > >2) The FAA requirement that all-electric certified ships have a >independent electrical systems for primary and back-up gyros seemed >reasonable. > >3) I liked Bob's strategy of replacing one of two identical batteries >on a regular basis. > >So, we're planning a Z14-like system with two 17 Ah batteries and a >small ND alternator (40 amps) to supplement the Rotax dynamo. I've >been giving some thought to how to dive the load between primary and >secondary systems. (The secondary system is run by the dynamo.) My >notion is to allocate the following to the secondary system: TC, all >direct battery buss loads, position lights, and cranking. This makes >the TC independent of the main electrcal system and prevents draining >of the main battery by things that run with the master off. Using the >secondary for cranking may also give warning of a failing battery, >especially if I pay attention to voltage during cranking as Bob >suggests. I will have a cross-feed, so I can crank with both batteries >if needed. This arrangement takes some strain off the main battery, >which should should rarely see much of a discharge cycle. Why Z-14? Z-13 would provide plenty of backup and save you a lot of weight and un-necessary system complexity. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:42:58 AM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: Mini-EFIS Panel Considerations INNOCENT GLOBAL 0.4986 1.0000 0.0000 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Responding to an AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" 12/16/2005 Hello Frank, You raise a good point. You wrote <<......skip.....In any case, I thought the 2 year VFR cert was a transponder only test...And IFR was the encoder/pitot/static test??....skip......>> I think that whether or not the VFR cert gets involved with the altitude encoder or not depends upon the interpretation of FAR Sec. 91.413 (b) which reads: "Following any installation or maintenance on an ATC transponder where data correspondence error could be introduced, the integrated system has been tested, inspected, and found to comply with paragraph (c), appendix E, of part 43 of this chapter." And the title of paragraph (c), appendix E, of part 43 reads: "(c) Automatic Pressure Altitude Reporting Equipment and ATC Transponder System Integration Test." I have never had just a VFR certification alone performed on an airplane by a shop so I don't know how they interpret 91.413 (b). Can anyone enlighten me? Thanks. OC <> ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:11:32 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Off-Topic Question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 10:08 PM 12/15/2005 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "J. Mcculley" > > >This is not directly related to aviation, but I'm sure there are some >people on this list who will find my question pretty elementary. > >On most older TV sets, when plugging into the installed audio outlets >for external speakers,headsets,recorders,etc, the TV's internal speaker >becomes inoperative. Some newer sets provide a screen display allowing a >person to choose listening to the internal speaker while a second person >listens to headsets. This is useful when the volume levels need to be >different due to hearing deficiency of one of the persons. Isn't there a >simple way to re-wire the older TV audio output line such that the >output can be fed to both the internal speaker and the headsets >simultaneously? Any help will be appreciated. Years ago, I added a small AM radio transmitter to the inside of a television set so that someone could listen to TV on a transistor radio and headphones whether the speaker on the TV was turned up or not. I did this for a neighbor woman who's husband was going deaf and hated hearing aids. He liked to watch TV but had the volume so high that the whole neighborhood knew what he was watching. He didn't mind the headphones so the dual path audio system took care of his needs as well as the comfort of others in the house/neighborhood. The task you've suggested can be done with relatively simple wiring but you'd have to add some independent volume controls for speaker and headset output and then leave the set's volume set relatively high so that both users had adequate signal levels. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:14:00 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Sort of related to the Z-13/8 Question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 06:03 PM 12/15/2005 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "glaesers" > > >Bob, > >I have a similar situation with a Z-19 architecture and rear mounted >batteries. I was thinking of putting an external splice on the heavy wire >behind the IP, which will make for a pretty short bus feed, rather than a >much longer run through the firewall to the contactor. Is that something >you would recommend or discourage? We do things like this in big airplanes. They dont call it a splice, they just break the big feeder, install terminals and tie it to an insulated stud. Branch feeders can come off that stud as needed. You could simply cut away 2" of feeder insulation, 2" of tap insulation, lay bared wires parallel and wrap with layer of solid strand copper, say 20AWG. Solder and cover with heatshrink. "Messy" but functional and not un-safe. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:00:46 AM PST US From: luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky) Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Off-Topic Question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky) That's neighborly but I want to know what you replaced the pear trees with! :-) do not archive. lucky -------------- Original message -------------- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > > At 10:08 PM 12/15/2005 -0500, you wrote: > > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "J. Mcculley" > > > > > >This is not directly related to aviation, but I'm sure there are some > >people on this list who will find my question pretty elementary. > > > >On most older TV sets, when plugging into the installed audio outlets > >for external speakers,headsets,recorders,etc, the TV's internal speaker > >becomes inoperative. Some newer sets provide a screen display allowing a > >person to choose listening to the internal speaker while a second person > >listens to headsets. This is useful when the volume levels need to be > >different due to hearing deficiency of one of the persons. Isn't there a > >simple way to re-wire the older TV audio output line such that the > >output can be fed to both the internal speaker and the headsets > >simultaneously? Any help will be appreciated. > > Years ago, I added a small AM radio transmitter to the > inside of a television set so that someone could listen > to TV on a transistor radio and headphones whether the > speaker on the TV was turned up or not. > > I did this for a neighbor woman who's husband was going > deaf and hated hearing aids. He liked to watch TV but > had the volume so high that the whole neighborhood knew > what he was watching. > > He didn't mind the headphones so the dual path audio > system took care of his needs as well as the comfort of > others in the house/neighborhood. > > The task you've suggested can be done with relatively > simple wiring but you'd have to add some independent > volume controls for speaker and headset output and then > leave the set's volume set relatively high so that both > users had adequate signal levels. > > Bob . . . > > > > > > That's neighborly but I want to know what you replaced the pear trees with! :-) do not archive. lucky -------------- Original message -------------- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" nuckollsr@cox.net -- AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 10:08 PM 12/15/2005 -0500, you wrote: -- AeroElectric-List message posted by: "J. Mcculley" This is not directly related to aviation, but I'm sure there are some people on this list who will find my question pretty elementary. On most older TV sets, when plugging into the installed audio outlets for external speakers,headsets,recorders,etc, the TV's internal speaker becomes inoperative. Some newer sets provide a screen display allowing a person to choose listening to the internal spea ker while a second person listens to headsets. This is useful when the volume levels need to be different due to hearing deficiency of one of the persons. Isn't there a simple way to re-wire the older TV audio output line such that the output can be fed to both the internal speaker and the headsets simultaneously? Any help will be appreciated. Years ago, I added a small AM radio transmitter to the inside of a television set so that someone could listen to TV on a transistor radio and headphones whether the speaker on the TV was turned up or not. I did this for a neighbor woman who's husband was going deaf and hated hearing aids. He liked to watch TV but had the volume so high that the whole neighborhood knew what he was watching. He didn't mind the headphones so the dual path audio system took ca re of his needs as well as the comfort of others in the house/neighborhood. The task you've suggested can be done with relatively simple wiring but you'd have to add some independent volume controls for speaker and headset output and then leave the set's volume set relatively high so that both users had adequate signal levels. Bob . . . ntribution Web Site - ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:24:08 AM PST US From: sportav8r@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: TC regulator needed for FWF RG battery? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com Bob: seeking your opinion on the advisability of using a temp-compensating regulator such as the LR-3 if I decide to move my Odyssey PC-628 to the forward side of the RV-6 firewall. In light of the recent temp data posted here from the well-instrumented engine compartment of a WittmanTailwind, I'm not sure I need to spend $318 on regulation hardware to keep my Odyssey RG battery happy for 1-2 yrs before its scheduled replacement. Thanks! -Bill Boyd ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:27:05 PM PST US From: Tim Lewis Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Converting IR to ER --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Tim Lewis Photos and text from my alternator conversion are at: -- Tim Lewis -- HEF (Manassas, VA) RV-6A N47TD -- 790 hrs RV-10 #40059 under construction Charlie Kuss wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss > > >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark R Steitle" >> >> >>Mark, >>There was an article on how to convert the Mitsubishi alternator in >>Contact Magazine some years back. I think it was issue #19, but not >>sure. Check their web site and order the issue. It will walk you >>through the process. >> >>Mark Steitle > > > That Contact Magazine article also shows how to convert ND alternators as > well. > > Charlie Kuss > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:00:25 PM PST US From: Jon Goguen Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE: Jon's Kitfox/912S --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jon Goguen Not more than light IFR (at least intentionally). The internal alternator is really marginal for night IFR , mostly because of the lighting load. It's good for about 18 amps. The position lights and strobes we have use about 12.5 of that , which doesn't leave much. We initially considered switching to LED position lights and other strategies for load reduction, but all things considered decided more electrical power was a better choice. Once we got to two alternators, we decided to go with an all-electric panel and and get rid of the vacuum system. With the all-electric panel, I wanted to maintain a gyro that was as independent of the main electrical system as the vacuum gyro would have been. Thus the Z14-like configuration with two batteries and two fully independent electrical systems having no common single point of failure. Two batteries also had the advantage of allowing routine replacement of one on a regular basis as suggested by Bob. It also shares the load between alternators both of which are active all the time, so one knows on a routine basis that both systems are working. Z13-20 doesn't provide the same level of redundancy, because all electrical power depends on the single battery. Disconnection of a battery lead, for example, could bring everything down. (I've recently realized that this wouldn't be true for us, because the secondary alternator is a permanent magnet one, and might run well with the battery off line.) Also, an electrical event that required immediate opening of either master switch would leave a gyro active with no other action required. Finally, since the backup alternator in Z13 sin't usually doing anything, it does require periodic testing to know if it works. The weight penalty for the two-battery system and the extra contactors required are the big disadvantages. We plan to minimize this by using relatively small batteries (12 Ah), and are also looking into alternatives that minimize contactor weight. We're also reconsidering Z13, but aren't convinced that it is necessarily more reliable with respect to maintaining independent gyros than a conventional system with vacuum backing up electrical failure. If it weren't for the independent gyro issue, Z13 would be the choice. Perhaps we've slid down the slippery slope of excessive redundancy--with an initial push from the puny Rotax alternator--and I'm happy to hear all arguments in favor of simpler systems. The key point for me is how much electrical system is necessary to be better than electric plus vacuum when electrical failures are considered. Jon Jon Goguen jon.goguen@umassmed.edu Central Massachusetts Kitfox Series V Rotax 912S / N456JG (reserved) Complete except for electrics and avionics "Nothing worth knowing can be understood by the human mind" --Woody Allen On Dec 15, 2005, at 8:45 PM, Rodney Dunham wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rodney Dunham" > > > Jon, > > Well, since you invited comments... > > What in the world are you going to be doing with a Kitfox/912S that > would > require such a beefy electrical system??? > > Rodney in Tennessee > > Do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:03:10 PM PST US From: Jon Goguen Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Load allocation with dual battery system --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jon Goguen Please see my reply to "Jon's Kitfox 912S" Jon Goguen jon.goguen@umassmed.edu Central Massachusetts Kitfox Series V Rotax 912S / N456JG (reserved) Complete except for electrics and avionics "Nothing worth knowing can be understood by the human mind" --Woody Allen On Dec 16, 2005, at 9:35 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > > At 06:36 PM 12/15/2005 -0500, you wrote: > >> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jon Goguen >> >> >> We're working on a two-battery two-alternator system, which is no >> doubt >> more complex than we need, but we got to it by the following route. >> >> 1) Not enough capacity in the internal Rotax PM alternator, so add >> another alternator. >> >> 2) The FAA requirement that all-electric certified ships have a >> independent electrical systems for primary and back-up gyros seemed >> reasonable. >> >> 3) I liked Bob's strategy of replacing one of two identical batteries >> on a regular basis. >> >> So, we're planning a Z14-like system with two 17 Ah batteries and a >> small ND alternator (40 amps) to supplement the Rotax dynamo. I've >> been giving some thought to how to dive the load between primary and >> secondary systems. (The secondary system is run by the dynamo.) My >> notion is to allocate the following to the secondary system: TC, all >> direct battery buss loads, position lights, and cranking. This makes >> the TC independent of the main electrcal system and prevents draining >> of the main battery by things that run with the master off. Using the >> secondary for cranking may also give warning of a failing battery, >> especially if I pay attention to voltage during cranking as Bob >> suggests. I will have a cross-feed, so I can crank with both >> batteries >> if needed. This arrangement takes some strain off the main battery, >> which should should rarely see much of a discharge cycle. > > Why Z-14? Z-13 would provide plenty of backup and save you > a lot of weight and un-necessary system complexity. > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:22:53 PM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RE: Jon's Kitfox/912S From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Light IFR...In Kitfox? You're a braver man than me....:) Frank Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jon Goguen Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE: Jon's Kitfox/912S --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jon Goguen --> Not more than light IFR (at least intentionally). The internal alternator is really marginal for night IFR , mostly because of the lighting load. It's good for about 18 amps. The position lights and strobes we have use about 12.5 of that , which doesn't leave much. We initially considered switching to LED position lights and other strategies for load reduction, but all things considered decided more electrical power was a better choice. Once we got to two alternators, we decided to go with an all-electric panel and and get rid of the vacuum system. With the all-electric panel, I wanted to maintain a gyro that was as independent of the main electrical system as the vacuum gyro would have been. Thus the Z14-like configuration with two batteries and two fully independent electrical systems having no common single point of failure. Two batteries also had the advantage of allowing routine replacement of one on a regular basis as suggested by Bob. It also shares the load between alternators both of which are active all the time, so one knows on a routine basis that both systems are working. Z13-20 doesn't provide the same level of redundancy, because all electrical power depends on the single battery. Disconnection of a battery lead, for example, could bring everything down. (I've recently realized that this wouldn't be true for us, because the secondary alternator is a permanent magnet one, and might run well with the battery off line.) Also, an electrical event that required immediate opening of either master switch would leave a gyro active with no other action required. Finally, since the backup alternator in Z13 sin't usually doing anything, it does require periodic testing to know if it works. The weight penalty for the two-battery system and the extra contactors required are the big disadvantages. We plan to minimize this by using relatively small batteries (12 Ah), and are also looking into alternatives that minimize contactor weight. We're also reconsidering Z13, but aren't convinced that it is necessarily more reliable with respect to maintaining independent gyros than a conventional system with vacuum backing up electrical failure. If it weren't for the independent gyro issue, Z13 would be the choice. Perhaps we've slid down the slippery slope of excessive redundancy--with an initial push from the puny Rotax alternator--and I'm happy to hear all arguments in favor of simpler systems. The key point for me is how much electrical system is necessary to be better than electric plus vacuum when electrical failures are considered. Jon Jon Goguen jon.goguen@umassmed.edu Central Massachusetts Kitfox Series V Rotax 912S / N456JG (reserved) Complete except for electrics and avionics "Nothing worth knowing can be understood by the human mind" --Woody Allen On Dec 15, 2005, at 8:45 PM, Rodney Dunham wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rodney Dunham" > > > Jon, > > Well, since you invited comments... > > What in the world are you going to be doing with a Kitfox/912S that > would > require such a beefy electrical system??? > > Rodney in Tennessee > > Do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:58:37 PM PST US From: "Mike Holland" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-24 Nusance trips --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mike Holland" Bob, reposes to your questions - "Is your OV module purchased or DIY project? If purchased, how long have you had it? If DIY, did you get the latest mod incorporated?" It was purchased from B&C, OVM-14 on 10/9/2003. "If you have a purchased OV module, I'd like to get my hands on it." I can pull it and send to you but this raises other questions. Will this lead to any safety problems? I can appreciate your difficulty answering a question like that so let me rephrase it - Should I purchase and install a replacement before I send you the existing one? It wired directly to the circuit breaker and ignition switch so it won't be much trouble to get to and remove. I just don't want a current annoyance to become a bigger problem, if you know what I mean. I'm based at Chino if you are somewhere area I can fly to your shop and we may be able to figure out what is going and post it to the list. Thanks Mike ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 04:21:16 PM PST US From: Jon Goguen Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE: Jon's Kitfox/912S --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jon Goguen Frank, It's nice to fly safely at night with a poor horizon, during the day with lousy visibility and limitred ground contact, and to climb through clouds to get on top. I don't intend to fool with real weather. Jon Do not archive Jon D. Goguen, Ph. D. Department of Molecular Genetics and Microbiology University of Massachusetts Medical School 55 Lake Avenue North Worcester, MA 01655 Phone 508.856.2490 Fax 508.856.5920 On Dec 16, 2005, at 6:22 PM, Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George > (Corvallis)" > > Light IFR...In Kitfox? > > You're a braver man than me....:) > > Frank > > Do not archive > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jon > Goguen > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE: Jon's Kitfox/912S > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jon Goguen > --> > > Not more than light IFR (at least intentionally). The internal > alternator is really marginal for night IFR , mostly because of the > lighting load. It's good for about 18 amps. The position lights and > strobes we have use about 12.5 of that , which doesn't leave much. We > initially considered switching to LED position lights and other > strategies for load reduction, but all things considered decided more > electrical power was a better choice. Once we got to two alternators, > we decided to go with an all-electric panel and and get rid of the > vacuum system. With the all-electric panel, I wanted to maintain a > gyro > that was as independent of the main electrical system as the vacuum > gyro > would have been. Thus the Z14-like configuration with two batteries > and > two fully independent electrical systems having no common > single point of failure. Two batteries also had the advantage of > allowing routine replacement of one on a regular basis as suggested by > Bob. It also shares the load between alternators both of which are > active all the time, so one knows on a routine basis that both systems > are working. Z13-20 doesn't provide the same level of redundancy, > because all electrical power depends on the single battery. > Disconnection of a battery lead, for example, could bring everything > down. (I've recently realized that this wouldn't be true for us, > because the secondary alternator is a permanent magnet one, and might > run well with the battery off line.) Also, an electrical event that > required immediate opening of either master switch would leave a gyro > active with no other action required. Finally, since the backup > alternator in Z13 sin't usually doing anything, it does require > periodic > testing to know if it works. > > The weight penalty for the two-battery system and the extra contactors > required are the big disadvantages. We plan to minimize this by using > relatively small batteries (12 Ah), and are also looking into > alternatives that minimize contactor weight. We're also reconsidering > Z13, but aren't convinced that it is necessarily more reliable with > respect to maintaining independent gyros than a conventional system > with > vacuum backing up electrical failure. If it weren't for the > independent > gyro issue, Z13 would be the choice. > > Perhaps we've slid down the slippery slope of excessive > redundancy--with > an initial push from the puny Rotax alternator--and I'm happy to hear > all arguments in favor of simpler systems. The key point for me is how > much electrical system is necessary to be better than electric plus > vacuum when electrical failures are considered. > > Jon > > Jon Goguen > jon.goguen@umassmed.edu > Central Massachusetts > Kitfox Series V Rotax 912S / N456JG (reserved) > Complete except for electrics and avionics > > "Nothing worth knowing can be understood by the human mind" > --Woody Allen > On Dec 15, 2005, at 8:45 PM, Rodney Dunham wrote: > >> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rodney Dunham" >> >> >> Jon, >> >> Well, since you invited comments... >> >> What in the world are you going to be doing with a Kitfox/912S that >> would >> require such a beefy electrical system??? >> >> Rodney in Tennessee >> >> Do not archive >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 04:21:21 PM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE: Jon's Kitfox/912S --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kevin Horton On 16 Dec 2005, at 18:22, Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George > (Corvallis)" > > Light IFR...In Kitfox? > > You're a braver man than me....:) > > Frank > > Do not archive One of my biggest concerns about flying IFR in a single-engined aircraft is what happens if an engine fails. Once you go in that cloud you have no way to control how much altitude there is between the bottom of cloud and the ground. If your engine fails, you may find that you don't have much time to pick a decent landing spot once you come out the bottom of the cloud. A Kitfox has quite a low wing loading, and hence a very low stall speed. Steel tube fuselages probably give better surviveability than any other construction material, as the steel tube tends to deform rather than crumple or splinter, and it forms a natural roll cage. Kitfoxes aren't my cup of tea, but IFR in a Kitfox may be safer than IFR in an RV, at least from the point of view of the engine failure scenario. Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) Ottawa, Canada http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 05:18:22 PM PST US AeroElectric AeroElectric From: Richard Reynolds Subject: AeroElectric-List: WX-900 Antenna INNOCENT GLOBAL 0.4981 1.0000 0.0000 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Richard Reynolds My WX-900 antenna is not repairable. It failed after approximately 170 tach hours. L-3 Communications Avionics Systems has not retuned it per my request of Nov 9, 2005. Question: Has any one had good service experience with the WX-900 antenna? Has any one had good service experience with L-3 Communications Avionics Systems? Richard Reynolds Norfolk, VA RV-6A ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 06:48:40 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Received-SPF: none (mgr1.xmission.com: 166.70.39.121 is neither permitted nor denied by domain of craigandjean.com) client-ip=166.70.39.121; envelope-from=craig@craigandjean.com; helo=TheTCCraig; Subject: AeroElectric-List: Good "no nick" wire stripper? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" Bob gives the anatomy of a good "no nick" wire stripper at http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/strippers/strippers.html. Question is: where can I buy one? In most web stores it is hard to tell because the wrong ones with sharp cutting blades are hard to separate from the good ones that use notch-sensitivity to "pull" the insulation apart at a controlled location. Any pointers to where I can find the "right" stripper? -- Craig ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 07:06:17 PM PST US From: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Good "no nick" wire stripper? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" I know Bob doesn't like those strippers in the first photograph of that article, and I know he's really good at using the el-cheapo kind. I grew up stripping wire with my teeth, but it's hard to do that with Tefzel, and now that I'm an adult I pay more attention to dental costs. I tried the really really el-cheapo plastic kind like you get for free with your "cold soldering iron", and they really damage the wire. I wouldn't wish them on my worst enemy. But I swear by that little gadget in the first photo in his article. I don't remember where I got mine, probably Radio Shack. It works like an absolute champ for me, and I'll never go back to the teeth or the swiss army knife (which works OK too if you're very careful, but takes way too long). How's that for a non-answer Dave Morris N5UP At 08:47 PM 12/16/2005, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" > > >Bob gives the anatomy of a good "no nick" wire stripper at >http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/strippers/strippers.html. Question is: >where can I buy one? In most web stores it is hard to tell because the wrong >ones with sharp cutting blades are hard to separate from the good ones that >use notch-sensitivity to "pull" the insulation apart at a controlled >location. Any pointers to where I can find the "right" stripper? > >-- Craig > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 07:16:58 PM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: AeroElectric-List: four-wire 28V OV protection relay --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd Does anyone make a four-wire 28V OV protection relay? I actually need one that will open the field circuit between the regulator and a generator so I need it to have just a set of contacts that opens and latches open on OV. -- Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr. brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630 +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . - Antoine de Saint-Exupery ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 07:19:42 PM PST US From: JTORTHO@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE: Jon's Kitfox/912S --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: JTORTHO@aol.com Jon You have stated my feelings exactly. My project is a searey, another less then ideal IFR platform, but I would like the security of the right tools to get home safely. Also using a 912s with the same load demands. So which alternator are you using? Jim ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 08:06:06 PM PST US From: "Stein Bruch" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Good "no nick" wire stripper? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Stein Bruch" The real quick and easy way to tell is price. The "Die" type strippers are normally well north of $100.00 in price (typically $150-300). If they are priced less than that, then it's highly unlikely that they are die type strippers. Cheers, Stein. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Craig Payne Subject: AeroElectric-List: Good "no nick" wire stripper? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" Bob gives the anatomy of a good "no nick" wire stripper at http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/strippers/strippers.html. Question is: where can I buy one? In most web stores it is hard to tell because the wrong ones with sharp cutting blades are hard to separate from the good ones that use notch-sensitivity to "pull" the insulation apart at a controlled location. Any pointers to where I can find the "right" stripper? -- Craig ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 08:13:08 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: four-wire 28V OV protection relay --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 07:16 PM 12/16/2005 -0800, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd > >Does anyone make a four-wire 28V OV protection relay? I actually need >one that will open the field circuit between the regulator and a >generator so I need it to have just a set of contacts that opens and >latches open on OV. If it's non-certified, I can build you one. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 08:16:05 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-24 Nusance trips --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 03:56 PM 12/16/2005 -0800, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mike Holland" > >Bob, reposes to your questions - > >"Is your OV module purchased or DIY project? If purchased, > how long have you had it? If DIY, did you get the latest mod > incorporated?" > >It was purchased from B&C, OVM-14 on 10/9/2003. Okay, That should be the latest configuration. > "If you have a purchased OV module, I'd like to get my hands > on it." > >I can pull it and send to you but this raises other questions. Will this >lead to any safety problems? I can appreciate your difficulty answering a >question like that so let me rephrase it - Should I purchase and install a >replacement before I send you the existing one? No, I'll turn yours very quickly and real ov conditions are very rare. >It wired directly to the circuit breaker and ignition switch so it won't >be much trouble to get to and remove. I just don't want a current >annoyance to become a bigger problem, if you know what I mean. I'm based >at Chino if you are somewhere area I can fly to your shop and we may be >able to figure out what is going and post it to the list. I'm in Wichita KS. Priority mail to Bob Nuckolls 6936 Bainbridge Road Wichita, KS 67226 Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 08:43:09 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Good "no nick" wire stripper? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" And what if it looks different and costs something in-between? http://www.hmcelectronics.com/cgi-bin/scripts/product/6800-0025/ -- Craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stein Bruch Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Good "no nick" wire stripper? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Stein Bruch" --> The real quick and easy way to tell is price. The "Die" type strippers are normally well north of $100.00 in price (typically $150-300). If they are priced less than that, then it's highly unlikely that they are die type strippers. Cheers, Stein. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Craig Payne Subject: AeroElectric-List: Good "no nick" wire stripper? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" Bob gives the anatomy of a good "no nick" wire stripper at http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/strippers/strippers.html. Question is: where can I buy one? In most web stores it is hard to tell because the wrong ones with sharp cutting blades are hard to separate from the good ones that use notch-sensitivity to "pull" the insulation apart at a controlled location. Any pointers to where I can find the "right" stripper? -- Craig ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 08:51:04 PM PST US From: Jon Goguen Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE: Jon's Kitfox/912S --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jon Goguen We have a little (6 lbs, 40 amps) new manufacture internally regulated Nippon Denso that cost $115 from a local supplier. I don't have the part # in my office (were I still am, unfortunately), but can get it to you later. We will probably go with the internal regulator rather than converting for external regulation, which would not be very diffiicult if desired. Now comes the complex part. The Rotax external alternator drive kit won't fit under the cowl. Rather than modify the cowl, we designed a drive to work from the vacuum pump pad. Coupling the alternator directly to the vacuum pump drive internal spline doesn't give high enough rpm. This is why the SD20 from B&C gives only 13 amps or so on a 912S. Our system mounts a pulley on the pad and drives the alternator with a belt to increase the rpm. The parts are currently in process at a local machine shop. I will post pictures and let folks now how well it works when we get it up and running. Using the Rotax external drive would be much easier if it fits in your ship. It might have been easier to modify the cowl in our case, but momentum for the vacuum pad solution got hold of us. Jon Jon Goguen jon.goguen@umassmed.edu Central Massachusetts Kitfox Series V Rotax 912S / N456JG (reserved) Complete except for electrics and avionics "Nothing worth knowing can be understood by the human mind" --Woody Allen On Dec 16, 2005, at 10:19 PM, JTORTHO@aol.com wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: JTORTHO@aol.com > > Jon > You have stated my feelings exactly. My project is a searey, another > less > then ideal IFR platform, but I would like the security of the right > tools to get > home safely. > > Also using a 912s with the same load demands. So which alternator are > you > using? > > Jim > > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 09:04:30 PM PST US From: Jon Goguen Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Good "no nick" wire stripper? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jon Goguen I wonder if filing a slight flat on the sharp edge of Stripmaster clones would give results similar to the high dollar tools. Think I'll give it a try. Jon Jon D. Goguen, Ph. D. Department of Molecular Genetics and Microbiology University of Massachusetts Medical School 55 Lake Avenue North Worcester, MA 01655 Phone 508.856.2490 Fax 508.856.5920 On Dec 16, 2005, at 10:07 PM, Dave Morris "BigD" wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" > > > I know Bob doesn't like those strippers in the first photograph of that > article, and I know he's really good at using the el-cheapo kind. I > grew > up stripping wire with my teeth, but it's hard to do that with Tefzel, > and > now that I'm an adult I pay more attention to dental costs. I tried > the > really really el-cheapo plastic kind like you get for free with your > "cold > soldering iron", and they really damage the wire. I wouldn't wish > them on > my worst enemy. But I swear by that little gadget in the first photo > in > his article. I don't remember where I got mine, probably Radio Shack. > It > works like an absolute champ for me, and I'll never go back to the > teeth or > the swiss army knife (which works OK too if you're very careful, but > takes > way too long). > > How's that for a non-answer > > Dave Morris > N5UP > > At 08:47 PM 12/16/2005, you wrote: >> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" >> >> >> Bob gives the anatomy of a good "no nick" wire stripper at >> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/strippers/strippers.html. >> Question is: >> where can I buy one? In most web stores it is hard to tell because >> the wrong >> ones with sharp cutting blades are hard to separate from the good >> ones that >> use notch-sensitivity to "pull" the insulation apart at a controlled >> location. Any pointers to where I can find the "right" stripper? >> >> -- Craig >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 09:09:04 PM PST US From: Bob White Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Good "no nick" wire stripper? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Bob White On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 21:39:20 -0700 "Craig Payne" wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" > > And what if it looks different and costs something in-between? > > http://www.hmcelectronics.com/cgi-bin/scripts/product/6800-0025/ > > -- Craig > Hi Craig, I was just composing a reply to mention that stripper. I have one with the Teflon blades and it does a good job on Tefzel. Sometimes I have to grip the wire just in front of the jaws to give it a little assistance. Bob W. -- http://www.bob-white.com N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 (Projected engine start - maybe next week) Custom Cables for your rotary installation - http://www.roblinphoto.com/shop/ ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 09:21:27 PM PST US From: "Stein Bruch" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Good "no nick" wire stripper? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Stein Bruch" That's still not a true "mil spec" die type stripper. Anytime you see the words "self adjusting" you can gaurantee a certain lack of detailed accuracy. That being said, I'm not saying you have to buy the die type strippers at all, because personally I don't think thats the case (although I'll probably be chastised for that). I do however think a good set of strippers can be used that costs a whole lot less than the high buck ones...even the middle of the line Ideal or AMP brand stripmasters (which have interchangeable dies including the compression die type for the same frame). We have the die type strippers in automated and pneumatic strippers in my shop, but then that's for use in producing a LOT of wiring harnesses for various OEM mfgrs, so we're required to do that. For your own GA airplane the likelyhood that one small microscopic nick on a wire that carries low current DC or signals will cause a catastrophe is nil in reality (although some will disagree). Completely different case with the high frequency and high voltage AC that many of the high performance jet/military aircraft use in their wiring (i.e. Swissair111). Just my 2 cents as usual! Cheers, Stein. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Craig Payne Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Good "no nick" wire stripper? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" And what if it looks different and costs something in-between? http://www.hmcelectronics.com/cgi-bin/scripts/product/6800-0025/ -- Craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stein Bruch Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Good "no nick" wire stripper? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Stein Bruch" --> The real quick and easy way to tell is price. The "Die" type strippers are normally well north of $100.00 in price (typically $150-300). If they are priced less than that, then it's highly unlikely that they are die type strippers. Cheers, Stein. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Craig Payne Subject: AeroElectric-List: Good "no nick" wire stripper? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" Bob gives the anatomy of a good "no nick" wire stripper at http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/strippers/strippers.html. Question is: where can I buy one? In most web stores it is hard to tell because the wrong ones with sharp cutting blades are hard to separate from the good ones that use notch-sensitivity to "pull" the insulation apart at a controlled location. Any pointers to where I can find the "right" stripper? -- Craig ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 09:21:27 PM PST US From: "J. Mcculley" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Off-Topic Question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "J. Mcculley" Thanks to the several people who responded to my request for help. The suggestions were right on target and I now have the system working as I had hoped for. Another excellent example of the power of this technical list and all the fine brains that make it possible. Jim McCulley J. Mcculley wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "J. Mcculley" > > This is not directly related to aviation, but I'm sure there are some > people on this list who will find my question pretty elementary. > Jim McCulley > 180 HP Tailwind ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 10:51:27 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Good "no nick" wire stripper? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" I'm more worried about the mechanical performance of a nicked wire than its electrical one. Given that the nick would be right where the insulation stops it can be hard to see. And a bend in the wire at that point could expand the nick into a crack or complete break. Now since most of these wires will be crimped into insulated Fastons the insulation would offer some strain-relief and prevent a 90 degree bend at the hypothetical nick's location. But that seems like a band-aid to me, But sharp bends at the point where the wire departs the connector is poor wiring style. I would continue using my time-tested approach (also described at the end of Bob's monograph) - just use a cheap pair of strippers with the spring and stop-nut removed and strip by feel. But I find this harder with Tefzel. -- Craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stein Bruch Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Good "no nick" wire stripper? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Stein Bruch" --> That's still not a true "mil spec" die type stripper. Anytime you see the words "self adjusting" you can gaurantee a certain lack of detailed accuracy. That being said, I'm not saying you have to buy the die type strippers at all, because personally I don't think thats the case (although I'll probably be chastised for that). I do however think a good set of strippers can be used that costs a whole lot less than the high buck ones...even the middle of the line Ideal or AMP brand stripmasters (which have interchangeable dies including the compression die type for the same frame). We have the die type strippers in automated and pneumatic strippers in my shop, but then that's for use in producing a LOT of wiring harnesses for various OEM mfgrs, so we're required to do that. For your own GA airplane the likelyhood that one small microscopic nick on a wire that carries low current DC or signals will cause a catastrophe is nil in reality (although some will disagree). Completely different case with the high frequency and high voltage AC that many of the high performance jet/military aircraft use in their wiring (i.e. Swissair111). Just my 2 cents as usual! Cheers, Stein. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Craig Payne Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Good "no nick" wire stripper? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" And what if it looks different and costs something in-between? http://www.hmcelectronics.com/cgi-bin/scripts/product/6800-0025/ -- Craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stein Bruch Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Good "no nick" wire stripper? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Stein Bruch" --> The real quick and easy way to tell is price. The "Die" type strippers are normally well north of $100.00 in price (typically $150-300). If they are priced less than that, then it's highly unlikely that they are die type strippers. Cheers, Stein. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Craig Payne Subject: AeroElectric-List: Good "no nick" wire stripper? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" Bob gives the anatomy of a good "no nick" wire stripper at http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/strippers/strippers.html. Question is: where can I buy one? In most web stores it is hard to tell because the wrong ones with sharp cutting blades are hard to separate from the good ones that use notch-sensitivity to "pull" the insulation apart at a controlled location. Any pointers to where I can find the "right" stripper? -- Craig ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 10:56:50 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Good "no nick" wire stripper? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" Now that I think about it my proceeding analysis about nick propagation is nonsense because we are dealing with stranded wire, not solid. Excuse me while I slap myself around a bit. -- Craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stein Bruch Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Good "no nick" wire stripper? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Stein Bruch" --> That's still not a true "mil spec" die type stripper. Anytime you see the words "self adjusting" you can gaurantee a certain lack of detailed accuracy. That being said, I'm not saying you have to buy the die type strippers at all, because personally I don't think thats the case (although I'll probably be chastised for that). I do however think a good set of strippers can be used that costs a whole lot less than the high buck ones...even the middle of the line Ideal or AMP brand stripmasters (which have interchangeable dies including the compression die type for the same frame). We have the die type strippers in automated and pneumatic strippers in my shop, but then that's for use in producing a LOT of wiring harnesses for various OEM mfgrs, so we're required to do that. For your own GA airplane the likelyhood that one small microscopic nick on a wire that carries low current DC or signals will cause a catastrophe is nil in reality (although some will disagree). Completely different case with the high frequency and high voltage AC that many of the high performance jet/military aircraft use in their wiring (i.e. Swissair111). Just my 2 cents as usual! Cheers, Stein. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Craig Payne Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Good "no nick" wire stripper? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" And what if it looks different and costs something in-between? http://www.hmcelectronics.com/cgi-bin/scripts/product/6800-0025/ -- Craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stein Bruch Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Good "no nick" wire stripper? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Stein Bruch" --> The real quick and easy way to tell is price. The "Die" type strippers are normally well north of $100.00 in price (typically $150-300). If they are priced less than that, then it's highly unlikely that they are die type strippers. Cheers, Stein. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Craig Payne Subject: AeroElectric-List: Good "no nick" wire stripper? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" Bob gives the anatomy of a good "no nick" wire stripper at http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/strippers/strippers.html. Question is: where can I buy one? In most web stores it is hard to tell because the wrong ones with sharp cutting blades are hard to separate from the good ones that use notch-sensitivity to "pull" the insulation apart at a controlled location. Any pointers to where I can find the "right" stripper? -- Craig