---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 12/20/05: 24 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:17 AM - Re: Re: Battery charger data (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 2. 05:41 AM - main battery contactor, hidden security issue?? (Werner Schneider) 3. 06:50 AM - Re: main battery contactor, hidden security issue?? (sportav8r@aol.com) 4. 07:26 AM - Re: main battery contactor, hidden security issue?? (Ken) 5. 07:31 AM - Re: main battery contactor, hidden security issue?? (Dan Beadle) 6. 07:56 AM - Re: main battery contactor, hidden security issue?? (sportav8r@aol.com) 7. 08:03 AM - Re: main battery contactor, hidden security issue?? (sportav8r@aol.com) 8. 08:44 AM - Re: Yet another ebay scam to watch out for () 9. 08:48 AM - Oh God, strippers again (Craig Payne) 10. 09:06 AM - Re: Antennas- ground plane. (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 11. 11:38 AM - Re: Antennas- ground plane. (Dave Morris \) 12. 12:19 PM - Re: main battery contactor, hidden security issue?? (sportav8r@aol.com) 13. 12:31 PM - Re: main battery contactor, hidden security issue?? (sportav8r@aol.com) 14. 12:46 PM - Re: main battery contactor, hidden security issue?? (sportav8r@aol.com) 15. 01:36 PM - Miniature air driven generator (Gilles Thesee) 16. 02:13 PM - Re: Miniature air driven generator (Paul Wilson) 17. 02:17 PM - Re: Oh God, strippers again (John Schroeder) 18. 02:23 PM - Re: Miniature air driven generator (Craig Payne) 19. 02:40 PM - Re: Miniature air driven generator (Dave Morris \) 20. 02:44 PM - Re: main battery contactor, hidden security issue?? (Ken) 21. 03:27 PM - Re: Miniature air driven generator (Eric M. Jones) 22. 04:39 PM - Re: Miniature air driven generator (Jim Jewell) 23. 04:58 PM - Re: Miniature air driven generator (Craig Payne) 24. 08:56 PM - Batteries (DEAN PSIROPOULOS) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:17:16 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Battery charger data --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 10:40 PM 12/19/2005 -0700, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Carter" > > >I use a Schumacher and it charges momentarily to 14 point something and then >shuts off and the battery internally discharges down to 13.00 or 12.99 volts >and the charger turns back on. Takes a fully charged battery about 1 or 2 >seconds to reach the 14+ v shutoff and takes 15' or 30' (a long time) for >the battery to discharge back down to 13.00 > >So, Paul's voltage readings for the Schumaker are exactly what I see. > >The WM1562A must not ever drop down to 13.00, must drop down to 13.34 or >thereabouts before it turns on again. With 6 cells, the diff in total >voltage (13 vs 13.34) is .34. Divide by 6 and you get about .06 v per cell >difference in "charge" or "per cell voltage" with the two different >chargers/maintainers. Not significant? Both doing well. There are about a dozen protocols for battery maintenance behavior some of which date back to the earliest use of silicon controlled rectifiers as opposed to straight diodes. The chassis I'm holding in this picture . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Misc/Mobilizer_3s.jpg . . . mounts the battery charger and control relays for the patient moving machine. Very simple circuitry but looks really strange when you observe output current. As the battery achieves full charge, the charger appears to go into fits of apoplexy. The AVERAGE output current is just what's needed to keep the battery up but the ammeter would "jitter" in a random manner. Schumaker also built chargers just like that back then. As the control technologies evolved, the outputs got more predictable and certainly less agitated. So when comparing various battery chargers even of the same brand . . . be sure to consider both age and model number of the device. There can be substantial variability in behavior between models separated by just a few years. The primary behavior your looking for is a charger that takes a battery up to 14.0 to 14.8 volts for a relatively short time depending on size of battery but generally less than 2 hours. It then "relaxes" to a level just above the normal open circuit voltage for the battery (12.9 or thereabouts at room temp). A "maintenance" voltage of 13.0 to 13.5 would make sure that (1) the battery is NOT being over charged and (2) ALL internal self discharge loads are being supported by the charger and not the battery's energy stores. With the latest chargers, this is a one-shot cycle. With some older designs, the charger will occasionally go into a "boost" mode. These chargers probably do not have any supporting output . . . they just wait until the battery self discharges to a small value below open circuit and then zaps it again. Give it another couple of years and we may see something different yet. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:41:46 AM PST US From: Werner Schneider Subject: AeroElectric-List: main battery contactor, hidden security issue?? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Werner Schneider As I did not get any feedback 2nd tryl, > > I was discussing recently with a guy which has NO main battery > contactor (CB setup) about his setup and he did ask me something which > I could not answer light heartily. > > The main battery contactor which is supposed to switch off the big > juice in case of an emergency landing is switched through a cable > going to ground. Now imagine your setup in a metal airplane and you > crash, is there not a certain danger, that you break the cable going > to the contactor and short it to ground, this switching on the main > battery contactor and voila you have a bomb named battery in your > crashing plane able to deliver several 100 Amps. > > This argument let me think and I would appreciate the insight of you > folks on the list about that scenario? > > Kind regards > > Werner (Glastar with main battery contactor behind my seat) > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:50:28 AM PST US From: sportav8r@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: main battery contactor, hidden security issue?? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com Werner, How likely is that wire controlling the contactor to "break," unless it passes through the firewall and could experience shear forces that might cut the insulation? I suppose you could activate the batery contactor from the high side, switching the B+ to it instead of the ground, but then you have an always-hot relay control wire that needs a fuse to protect it. I'm carefully studying an alternative architecture to Z-13/8 that involves an ANL fuse from the battery for protection from catastrophic shorts of the battery cable and always-hot battery bus, while allowing a 75-amp Bosch-type relay to be used as a battery contactor and uses no starter contactor at all. Like you, I tried to get a critical review going here on the List, but was "turned down," you might say. The basics for this revised architecture are from Bob's figure Z-22 and from George, aka "gmcjetpilot'" as posted on Doug Reeves' RV site. So far, I don't see a downside to my hybrid design, and it will simplify and save cost and weight. Nevertheless, I would welcome critical review before I start changing stuff in my plane. I think part of what frustrates efforts at dialog on this list is the technical difficulty in posting diagrams of what we're talking about. It's a major hurdle for me, at least. -Stormy -----Original Message----- From: Werner Schneider Subject: AeroElectric-List: main battery contactor, hidden security issue?? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Werner Schneider As I did not get any feedback 2nd tryl, > > I was discussing recently with a guy which has NO main battery > contactor (CB setup) about his setup and he did ask me something which > I could not answer light heartily. > > The main battery contactor which is supposed to switch off the big > juice in case of an emergency landing is switched through a cable > going to ground. Now imagine your setup in a metal airplane and you > crash, is there not a certain danger, that you break the cable going > to the contactor and short it to ground, this switching on the main > battery contactor and voila you have a bomb named battery in your > crashing plane able to deliver several 100 Amps. > > This argument let me think and I would appreciate the insight of you > folks on the list about that scenario? > > Kind regards > > Werner (Glastar with main battery contactor behind my seat) > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:26:01 AM PST US From: Ken Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: main battery contactor, hidden security issue?? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken Hi Stormy Or you could just use a regular contactor instead of a 75 amp unit and then you can route starter current through it. That might also eliminate the need for the ANL fuse. Worked for me. Gmcjetpilot is the only person to ever make my delete message filter list so I am not familiar with any post he has made about this. Hi Werner I don't think the risk is significant either way but as it happens it was convenient to feed fused +12 volts to the contactor that I mentioned above. If something else pops that fuse it will open the contactor though which might be a consideration. You do need a contactor that doesn't have an internal coil connection to the battery post to do that of course. Ken sportav8r@aol.com wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com > >Werner, > >How likely is that wire controlling the contactor to "break," unless it passes through the firewall and could experience shear forces that might cut the insulation? I suppose you could activate the batery contactor from the high side, switching the B+ to it instead of the ground, but then you have an always-hot relay control wire that needs a fuse to protect it. > >I'm carefully studying an alternative architecture to Z-13/8 that involves an ANL fuse from the battery for protection from catastrophic shorts of the battery cable and always-hot battery bus, while allowing a 75-amp Bosch-type relay to be used as a battery contactor and uses no starter contactor at all. Like you, I tried to get a critical review going here on the List, but was "turned down," you might say. The basics for this revised architecture are from Bob's figure Z-22 and from George, aka "gmcjetpilot'" as posted on Doug Reeves' RV site. So far, I don't see a downside to my hybrid design, and it will simplify and save cost and weight. Nevertheless, I would welcome critical review before I start changing stuff in my plane. > >I think part of what frustrates efforts at dialog on this list is the technical difficulty in posting diagrams of what we're talking about. It's a major hurdle for me, at least. > >-Stormy > >-----Original Message----- >From: Werner Schneider >To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >Subject: AeroElectric-List: main battery contactor, hidden security issue?? > > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Werner Schneider > >As I did not get any feedback 2nd tryl, > > > >>I was discussing recently with a guy which has NO main battery >>contactor (CB setup) about his setup and he did ask me something which >>I could not answer light heartily. >> >>The main battery contactor which is supposed to switch off the big >>juice in case of an emergency landing is switched through a cable >>going to ground. Now imagine your setup in a metal airplane and you >>crash, is there not a certain danger, that you break the cable going >>to the contactor and short it to ground, this switching on the main >>battery contactor and voila you have a bomb named battery in your >>crashing plane able to deliver several 100 Amps. >> >>This argument let me think and I would appreciate the insight of you >>folks on the list about that scenario? >> >>Kind regards >> >>Werner (Glastar with main battery contactor behind my seat) >> >> ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:31:13 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: main battery contactor, hidden security issue?? From: "Dan Beadle" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Beadle" I am interested in seeing your design. I would appreciate seeing a copy. I don't know whether the technical sharing issue is file sharing (upload) or schematic capture. If you are having trouble uploading to a shared file, please send it directly to me. If it is schematic capture, try this free-ware schematic capture http://www.cadsoft.de/freeware.htm Another great product is Orcad, which I use every day in business. They have an evaluation version, but you have to wait for the CD. http://www.ema-eda.com/products/orcad/requestdemocd.aspx Dan Beadle dan@inclinesoftworks.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of sportav8r@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: main battery contactor, hidden security issue?? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com Werner, How likely is that wire controlling the contactor to "break," unless it passes through the firewall and could experience shear forces that might cut the insulation? I suppose you could activate the batery contactor from the high side, switching the B+ to it instead of the ground, but then you have an always-hot relay control wire that needs a fuse to protect it. I'm carefully studying an alternative architecture to Z-13/8 that involves an ANL fuse from the battery for protection from catastrophic shorts of the battery cable and always-hot battery bus, while allowing a 75-amp Bosch-type relay to be used as a battery contactor and uses no starter contactor at all. Like you, I tried to get a critical review going here on the List, but was "turned down," you might say. The basics for this revised architecture are from Bob's figure Z-22 and from George, aka "gmcjetpilot'" as posted on Doug Reeves' RV site. So far, I don't see a downside to my hybrid design, and it will simplify and save cost and weight. Nevertheless, I would welcome critical review before I start changing stuff in my plane. I think part of what frustrates efforts at dialog on this list is the technical difficulty in posting diagrams of what we're talking about. It's a major hurdle for me, at least. -Stormy -----Original Message----- From: Werner Schneider Subject: AeroElectric-List: main battery contactor, hidden security issue?? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Werner Schneider As I did not get any feedback 2nd tryl, > > I was discussing recently with a guy which has NO main battery > contactor (CB setup) about his setup and he did ask me something which > I could not answer light heartily. > > The main battery contactor which is supposed to switch off the big > juice in case of an emergency landing is switched through a cable > going to ground. Now imagine your setup in a metal airplane and you > crash, is there not a certain danger, that you break the cable going > to the contactor and short it to ground, this switching on the main > battery contactor and voila you have a bomb named battery in your > crashing plane able to deliver several 100 Amps. > > This argument let me think and I would appreciate the insight of you > folks on the list about that scenario? > > Kind regards > > Werner (Glastar with main battery contactor behind my seat) > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:56:42 AM PST US From: sportav8r@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: main battery contactor, hidden security issue?? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com I've never used a file-sharing feature; I guess the Matronics lists have one now, but that's new to me, sorry. I need to get with the times. The big issue for me is drafting and scanning images. I tried using something like PCExpress software to draw schematics, but found it cumbersome beyond any usefulness to me. I might take a peek at the one you suggest. -Stormy ...content, until now, to simply use the 'Connection's drawings as wirebooks. -----Original Message----- From: Dan Beadle Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: main battery contactor, hidden security issue?? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Beadle" I am interested in seeing your design. I would appreciate seeing a copy. I don't know whether the technical sharing issue is file sharing (upload) or schematic capture. If you are having trouble uploading to a shared file, please send it directly to me. If it is schematic capture, try this free-ware schematic capture http://www.cadsoft.de/freeware.htm Another great product is Orcad, which I use every day in business. They have an evaluation version, but you have to wait for the CD. http://www.ema-eda.com/products/orcad/requestdemocd.aspx Dan Beadle dan@inclinesoftworks.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of sportav8r@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: main battery contactor, hidden security issue?? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com Werner, How likely is that wire controlling the contactor to "break," unless it passes through the firewall and could experience shear forces that might cut the insulation? I suppose you could activate the batery contactor from the high side, switching the B+ to it instead of the ground, but then you have an always-hot relay control wire that needs a fuse to protect it. I'm carefully studying an alternative architecture to Z-13/8 that involves an ANL fuse from the battery for protection from catastrophic shorts of the battery cable and always-hot battery bus, while allowing a 75-amp Bosch-type relay to be used as a battery contactor and uses no starter contactor at all. Like you, I tried to get a critical review going here on the List, but was "turned down," you might say. The basics for this revised architecture are from Bob's figure Z-22 and from George, aka "gmcjetpilot'" as posted on Doug Reeves' RV site. So far, I don't see a downside to my hybrid design, and it will simplify and save cost and weight. Nevertheless, I would welcome critical review before I start changing stuff in my plane. I think part of what frustrates efforts at dialog on this list is the technical difficulty in posting diagrams of what we're talking about. It's a major hurdle for me, at least. -Stormy -----Original Message----- From: Werner Schneider Subject: AeroElectric-List: main battery contactor, hidden security issue?? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Werner Schneider As I did not get any feedback 2nd tryl, > > I was discussing recently with a guy which has NO main battery > contactor (CB setup) about his setup and he did ask me something which > I could not answer light heartily. > > The main battery contactor which is supposed to switch off the big > juice in case of an emergency landing is switched through a cable > going to ground. Now imagine your setup in a metal airplane and you > crash, is there not a certain danger, that you break the cable going > to the contactor and short it to ground, this switching on the main > battery contactor and voila you have a bomb named battery in your > crashing plane able to deliver several 100 Amps. > > This argument let me think and I would appreciate the insight of you > folks on the list about that scenario? > > Kind regards > > Werner (Glastar with main battery contactor behind my seat) > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:03:03 AM PST US From: sportav8r@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: main battery contactor, hidden security issue?? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com Okay, but why have a contactor sized to carry starter current when it isn't necessary? I'm after _weight savings_ here, and the amp budget savings from doing away with the battery contactor is an extra bonus, since it might eliminate the need to craft a separate endurance bus to deal with the main alternator failure scenario. A fuse and a 4 oz Bosch relay weigh less than a battery contactor, and the hold-in current looks like 300mA. That leaves substantial SD-8 current to play with even if there's no E-bus and the relay must stay energized. Despite his colorful reputation in some circles, George might be onto something here. Since I can't post a schematic easily until later in the week, have a look at the VAF site. I'll go look for the link. -Stormy -----Original Message----- From: Ken Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: main battery contactor, hidden security issue?? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken Hi Stormy Or you could just use a regular contactor instead of a 75 amp unit and then you can route starter current through it. That might also eliminate the need for the ANL fuse. Worked for me. Gmcjetpilot is the only person to ever make my delete message filter list so I am not familiar with any post he has made about this. << Snip ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:44:40 AM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Yet another ebay scam to watch out for --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: I love eBay but my faith in the company is degraded. Good catch by the way. I have reported over 40 stolen accounts in a 3 week period but stopped, since eBay does not seem to be able to be proactive or only reacts to eBay member complaints, which represents 1000's of fake auctions daily. The ones I saw all featured the famous $500 Garmin 396. If you checked the sellers other items there where 40-120 other fake auctions. They also where scamming audio equip, plasma TVs, Camera's etc....... These ones where not as subtle as the one you described and used the same 10-20 email addresses in the description TEXT to contact them direct (since they don't use eBay email?). After reporting 40 of these things, I called eBay, waited on hold, long distance and finally got a security person. They claim they can't screen these before posting them LIVE on the web? A simple search of known scammer emails brings them up. Plus the are asking for direct sales outside eBay, an obvious violation of the rules. You report it but the criminals just open another few 100 fake auctions with new stolen accounts 50 minutes later, the SAME EXACT THING. I can see eBay not being able to catch all of them, but the same ones being re-posted over and over is not acceptable. Auctions claim to be in the USA but member is from Germany should be a clue, plus they want Western Union to Romania. Of course $500 for a $2600 Garmin should be the obvious first clue. Unlike the one you described, they are so obvious, but some folks who are new to eBay might be taken. Thanks for the TIP. I stopped reporting the stolen accounts and fake auctions because eBay does not seem to be capable of detecting them after the 40th time. I am not going to do their job for them. The thing that is so disturbing is the scammers seem to have an endless supply of stolen accounts. BE suspicious of a person who has a 10 rating and only has bought a doll, DVD and a few thimbles now has 130 auctions for expensive electronics! eBay WAKE UP. George do not archive --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" Everyone, Be aware that someone going buy "audio_metallurgy" is currently running scams on eBay that are aimed at aviation types. The thing that makes him a bit difficult to spot is he is selling stuff for what you would expect to pay, using home pictures of the items. He did several fishy things that had my spidey sense tingling but what really gave it away was forged emails from eBay that I could trace back to a Yahoo web account. I have reported him to eBay so I expect them to yank his id but I'm sure he has others ready to go. He also has several positive remarks so this may be a hijacked account. So you have an idea on his MO, here is a link to the item I was going to buy: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Garmin-GTX-327-transponder-yellow-tagged-no-r eserve_W0QQitemZ4595918845QQcategoryZ90980QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem Michael Sausen -10 #352 Fuselage do not archive ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:48:43 AM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Received-SPF: none (mgr1.xmission.com: 66.17.68.242 is neither permitted nor denied by domain of craigandjean.com) client-ip=66.17.68.242; envelope-from=craig@craigandjean.com; helo=TheTCCraig; Subject: AeroElectric-List: Oh God, strippers again --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" I've seen three different Ideal Stripmaster part numbers bandied about. Which is the correct model for stripping the Tefzel wire sold by B&C or SteinAir? 45-174 Described as being for "1000 volt Teflon" 45-177 "600 volt Teflon" 45-1610 "MIL-W-81044/12B Type Kynar wire", Gary Edwards [gary21sn@hotmail.com] has one of these for sale. -- Craig ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:06:36 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Antennas- ground plane. --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 01:43 AM 12/20/2005 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" > > >Question Bob: > >A while back you had some words of wisdom for a person who'd asked about >getting enough metal to metal contact for ground plane purposes with his >comm antenna. You mentioned to him that riveting his doubler plates to the >skin would provide plenty of contact when paint and other debris was >squeezed out during the riveting process. I have a little different twist >on this question. I made doubler plates to go inside the fuselage but don't >really want to rivet them on. The number of fasteners that hold the >antennas to the airplane will hold doublers to the skin and I don't see a >need to rivet the doublers on. This however, could cause trouble. Since >I've already primed the inside of the aluminum fuselage skin, would like to >prime the doublers so they don't corrode when water gets between them and >the fuselage skin and don't want to remove the primer from the skin......I >fear I will have insufficient connection to get good ground plane action. >The comm antennas come with a cork gasket that's supposed to go between the >outside skin and the antenna so that limits ground plane connection on the >outside skin (presently bare aluminum). Am I gonna have to bite the bullet >and rivet the doublers to get some connection or ????(the doublers have >nutplates riveted to them to accept the antenna fasteners). Any words of >wisdom here? The antennas are the standard store bought COMANT bent whips. >Thanks. Welcome to the club. When somebody decides to design a new airplane, they start with aero and power plant guys. Then come the structures and processes folks. After awhile the systems folks put in fuel, hydraulics and flight controls. When the 'airplane' is done, some guy with radios, cabin entertainment systems, etc is told, "Okay, you can have whatever space is left over . . . but don't CHANGE anything." This approach to an HF antenna installation (without CHANGING anything) has resulted in a situation where other equipment items inside the all metal airplane are suffering huge interfering energies from the HF transmitter. Had the structures and processes guys been involved since day-one to make the metal serve as both airplane and antenna, we'd have several $millions$ still in the corporate pockets instead of blowing that cash on band-aid fixes to delivered aircraft. Now, on a much smaller scale, you're presented with the same kind of problem. The laws of physics are immutable. The primary, long term, gas-tight connections between your antenna base and airframe happen right under the head and nut of the fasteners. If you need a doubler, then it needs to be well bonded to the airframe . . . and that means rivets or high pressure joints between ground conductors. If you choose not to rivet the doubler, you need to clean 2 extra surfaces before installation. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Antenna/Antenna_Installation.gif If the doubler is riveted, then surfaces between doubler and skin can be left as-manufactured but it wouldn't hurt to clean these too. I'd pitch the cork gasket and go for a thin bead of moisture sealant around outside edge of antenna base that extrudes out to zero-thickness at time of installation. PRESSURE and CLEANLINESS around the immediate circumference of the mounting screws is where it all happens. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:38:39 AM PST US From: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Antennas- ground plane. --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" Pretty ironic, isn't it, considering that the little guy with the radios is about to install stuff worth more than the rest of the entire airplane and powerplant put together! Dave Morris At 11:05 AM 12/20/2005, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > Welcome to the club. When somebody decides to design a new airplane, > they start with aero and power plant guys. Then come the structures > and processes folks. After awhile the systems folks put in fuel, > hydraulics and flight controls. When the 'airplane' is done, some > guy with radios, cabin entertainment systems, etc is told, "Okay, > you can have whatever space is left over . . . but don't CHANGE > anything." ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 12:19:44 PM PST US From: sportav8r@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: main battery contactor, hidden security issue?? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com The links to George's proposals are: http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/7674/norelays21re.jpg http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/7674/norelaysalt23x1.jpg I'm at work right now, but if I recall correctly, the only major change I've made to George's second .jpg is to route the alternator output directly to the starter solenoid hot terminal, as Bob does in Z-22, the "run-on" fix. The SD-8 PM alternator output is applied directly to the battery, on the cold side of the ANL 350 A fuse, and is controlled in the way shown in Z-25. The Battery contactor becomes a Bosch-type relay of 75 amps (less if the alternator output is less), again George's idea. A good weight saver. The DC power switch of Z-13/8 now becomes a SPST design, as it only has to switch the relay coil current. The alternator is always on when the main bus is powered up, and is controlled by pulling the 5A field breaker if needed. Unlike George, I would go with an ER alterenator and a Ford regulator for now. The only wires penerating the firewall are the AC wires from the SD-8 to its regulator and OVP circuitry, the fatwire from the battery to the battery bus, the regulator field wire to the main ER alternator, and the starter solenoid wire to the starter momentary switch. The relationships of major components to the firewall are well-detailed in George's jpeg. It would take but a minute to sketch out what I'm proposing, from the above references. Note that the E-bus and main bus would bear the same relationship to the Batt Bus as depicted in the 'Connection Z-diagrams. -Stormy From: Dan Beadle Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: main battery contactor, hidden security issue?? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Beadle" I am interested in seeing your design. I would appreciate seeing a copy. I don't know whether the technical sharing issue is file sharing (upload) or schematic capture. If you are having trouble uploading to a shared file, please send it directly to me. If it is schematic capture, try this free-ware schematic capture http://www.cadsoft.de/freeware.htm Another great product is Orcad, which I use every day in business. They have an evaluation version, but you have to wait for the CD. http://www.ema-eda.com/products/orcad/requestdemocd.aspx Dan Beadle dan@inclinesoftworks.com ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 12:31:00 PM PST US From: sportav8r@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: main battery contactor, hidden security issue?? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com Fixed the improper link typo in #2... http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/7674/norelaysalt23xi.jpg -----Original Message----- From: sportav8r@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: main battery contactor, hidden security issue?? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com The links to George's proposals are: http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/7674/norelays21re.jpg http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/7674/norelaysalt23x1.jpg I'm at work right now, but if I recall correctly, the only major change I've made to George's second .jpg is to route the alternator output directly to the starter solenoid hot terminal, as Bob does in Z-22, the "run-on" fix. The SD-8 PM alternator output is applied directly to the battery, on the cold side of the ANL 350 A fuse, and is controlled in the way shown in Z-25. The Battery contactor becomes a Bosch-type relay of 75 amps (less if the alternator output is less), again George's idea. A good weight saver. The DC power switch of Z-13/8 now becomes a SPST design, as it only has to switch the relay coil current. The alternator is always on when the main bus is powered up, and is controlled by pulling the 5A field breaker if needed. Unlike George, I would go with an ER alterenator and a Ford regulator for now. The only wires penerating the firewall are the AC wires from the SD-8 to its regulator and OVP circuitry, the fatwire from the battery to the battery bus, the regulator field wire to the main ER alternator, and the starter solenoid wire to the starter momentary switch. The relationships of major components to the firewall are well-detailed in George's jpeg. It would take but a minute to sketch out what I'm proposing, from the above references. Note that the E-bus and main bus would bear the same relationship to the Batt Bus as depicted in the 'Connection Z-diagrams. -Stormy From: Dan Beadle Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: main battery contactor, hidden security issue?? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Beadle" I am interested in seeing your design. I would appreciate seeing a copy. I don't know whether the technical sharing issue is file sharing (upload) or schematic capture. If you are having trouble uploading to a shared file, please send it directly to me. If it is schematic capture, try this free-ware schematic capture http://www.cadsoft.de/freeware.htm Another great product is Orcad, which I use every day in business. They have an evaluation version, but you have to wait for the CD. http://www.ema-eda.com/products/orcad/requestdemocd.aspx Dan Beadle dan@inclinesoftworks.com ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 12:46:08 PM PST US From: sportav8r@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: main battery contactor, hidden security issue?? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com Third time's a charm, hopefully. Cut and paste can result in great embarrassment for the careless. http://img500.imageshack.us/img500/3753/norelaysalt23xi.jpg -----Original Message----- From: sportav8r@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: main battery contactor, hidden security issue?? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com Fixed the improper link typo in #2... http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/7674/norelaysalt23xi.jpg -----Original Message----- From: sportav8r@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: main battery contactor, hidden security issue?? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com The links to George's proposals are: ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 01:36:11 PM PST US From: Gilles Thesee Subject: AeroElectric-List: Miniature air driven generator --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee Hi Bob and all, One of my hangar buddies is asking for something special to install in his modified Shoestring racer. His Continental engine runs no alternator, but he needs a battery for his engine instruments. He would like to install some small alternator inside the cowling, and drive it with a turbine and a blast tube. 250 mA "is all he's asking for", just to maintain his battery charged when he spends several days away from home. On racing days, he just intends to tape the blast air inlet to reduce drag. Here is my question : Has anyone heard of a small 12 V alternator/regulator system which could suit his needs ? Any input appreciated, Thanks in advance, Regards, Gilles Thesee Grenoble, France http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 02:13:49 PM PST US From: Paul Wilson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Miniature air driven generator --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Paul Wilson Send him to a bicycle shop for the generator and to a model plane place to get a prop.. =========== At 01:35 PM 12/20/2005, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee > > >Hi Bob and all, > >One of my hangar buddies is asking for something special to install in >his modified Shoestring racer. >His Continental engine runs no alternator, but he needs a battery for >his engine instruments. He would like to install some small alternator >inside the cowling, and drive it with a turbine and a blast tube. 250 mA >"is all he's asking for", just to maintain his battery charged when he >spends several days away from home. On racing days, he just intends to >tape the blast air inlet to reduce drag. > >Here is my question : > >Has anyone heard of a small 12 V alternator/regulator system which could >suit his needs ? > >Any input appreciated, >Thanks in advance, > >Regards, >Gilles Thesee >Grenoble, France >http://contrails.free.fr > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 02:17:47 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Oh God, strippers again From: "John Schroeder" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Schroeder" I bought a stripper from GAry and it works like a champ on the Tefzel 22759 wire. I don't have the model number. YOu might email him and ask if this one is the same as the batch he sold a couple of years ago. John On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 09:47:47 -0700, Craig Payne wrote: > 45-1610 "MIL-W-81044/12B Type Kynar wire", Gary Edwards > [gary21sn@hotmail.com] has one of these for sale. -- ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 02:23:20 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Miniature air driven generator --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" These are common on sailboats. Search the sailing sites on the web. -- Craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gilles Thesee Subject: AeroElectric-List: Miniature air driven generator --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee --> Hi Bob and all, One of my hangar buddies is asking for something special to install in his modified Shoestring racer. His Continental engine runs no alternator, but he needs a battery for his engine instruments. He would like to install some small alternator inside the cowling, and drive it with a turbine and a blast tube. 250 mA "is all he's asking for", just to maintain his battery charged when he spends several days away from home. On racing days, he just intends to tape the blast air inlet to reduce drag. Here is my question : Has anyone heard of a small 12 V alternator/regulator system which could suit his needs ? Any input appreciated, Thanks in advance, Regards, Gilles Thesee Grenoble, France http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 02:40:46 PM PST US From: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Miniature air driven generator --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" Tell him to use a conformal solar panel instead. Doesn't interfere with air flow like a taped blast tube (LOL!) would in a race plane. Dave Morris At 03:35 PM 12/20/2005, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee > > >Hi Bob and all, > >One of my hangar buddies is asking for something special to install in >his modified Shoestring racer. >His Continental engine runs no alternator, but he needs a battery for >his engine instruments. He would like to install some small alternator >inside the cowling, and drive it with a turbine and a blast tube. 250 mA >"is all he's asking for", just to maintain his battery charged when he >spends several days away from home. On racing days, he just intends to >tape the blast air inlet to reduce drag. > >Here is my question : > >Has anyone heard of a small 12 V alternator/regulator system which could >suit his needs ? > >Any input appreciated, >Thanks in advance, > >Regards, >Gilles Thesee >Grenoble, France >http://contrails.free.fr > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 02:44:28 PM PST US From: Ken Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: main battery contactor, hidden security issue?? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken Stormy Yes I see that we have different goals. Part of my reasoning was that replacing a contactor with a smaller relay plus an ANL seems to require more parts and more connections and more space to install it. And the heavy wire to the starter would still be always hot. For me, one contactor was simpler and also seemed to do more but I'm not as concerned about the weight or the contactor coil current. Running the starter current through a contactor is merely a different feature that may or may not have some value. A 350 amp fused heavy wire will be capable of some serious sparking and welding. OTOH a landing incident is probably much more likely than an in-flight fire and that doesn't leave much opportunity to turn off a master switch before the crunch anyway. FWIW we discussed incidents of stuck on starters a few years ago. That might be another possible advantage of running the starter current through a contactor. Ken sportav8r@aol.com wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com > >Okay, but why have a contactor sized to carry starter current when it isn't necessary? > >I'm after _weight savings_ here, and the amp budget savings from doing away with the battery contactor is an extra bonus, since it might eliminate the need to craft a separate endurance bus to deal with the main alternator failure scenario. A fuse and a 4 oz Bosch relay weigh less than a battery contactor, and the hold-in current looks like 300mA. That leaves substantial SD-8 current to play with even if there's no E-bus and the relay must stay energized. > >Despite his colorful reputation in some circles, George might be onto something here. Since I can't post a schematic easily until later in the week, have a look at the VAF site. I'll go look for the link. > >-Stormy > >-----Original Message----- >From: Ken >To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: main battery contactor, hidden security issue?? > > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken > >Hi Stormy >Or you could just use a regular contactor instead of a 75 amp unit and >then you can route starter current through it. That might also eliminate >the need for the ANL fuse. Worked for me. >Gmcjetpilot is the only person to ever make my delete message filter >list so I am not familiar with any post he has made about this. ><< Snip > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 03:27:48 PM PST US From: "Eric M. Jones" Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Miniature air driven generator --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" > AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee > >One of my hangar buddies is asking for something special to install in >his modified Shoestring racer. >His Continental engine runs no alternator, but he needs a battery for >his engine instruments. He would like to install some small alternator >inside the cowling, and drive it with a turbine and a blast tube. 250 mA >"is all he's asking for", just to maintain his battery charged when he >spends several days away from home. On racing days, he just intends to >tape the blast air inlet to reduce drag. >Here is my question : >Has anyone heard of a small 12 V alternator/regulator system which could >suit his needs ? Gilles Thesee Hi Gilles, I am a little uncertain how he wants to configure the generator, but sailboats have dozens of similar devices. Also, has he considered photovoltaic? Regards, Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge MA 01550-2705 (508) 764-2072 Teamwork: " A lot of people doing exactly what I say." (Marketing exec., Citrix Corp.) ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 04:39:58 PM PST US From: "Jim Jewell" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Miniature air driven generator --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Jewell" He might look into solar cells for keeping his battery up. They can be had in a very thin format that could be surface mounted or attached to a canopy cover in a clear plastic pocket. Jim in Kelowna ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gilles Thesee" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Miniature air driven generator > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee > > > Hi Bob and all, > > One of my hangar buddies is asking for something special to install in > his modified Shoestring racer. > His Continental engine runs no alternator, but he needs a battery for > his engine instruments. He would like to install some small alternator > inside the cowling, and drive it with a turbine and a blast tube. 250 mA > "is all he's asking for", just to maintain his battery charged when he > spends several days away from home. On racing days, he just intends to > tape the blast air inlet to reduce drag. > > Here is my question : > > Has anyone heard of a small 12 V alternator/regulator system which could > suit his needs ? > > Any input appreciated, > Thanks in advance, > > Regards, > Gilles Thesee > Grenoble, France > http://contrails.free.fr > > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 04:58:33 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Miniature air driven generator --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" There are small) solar panels sold to keep the battery topped up on cars that sit for a long time. They are generally cheap products imported from overseas: http://www.baproducts.com/sm831.htm http://www.batterystuff.com/productdisplay.html?id=424&c=9&f=12_Volt_Solar_C ycle_Saver_1Watt http://www.batterystuff.com/productdisplay.html?id=423&c=9&f=12_Volt_Solar_B atterySaver_Plus_1.8Watt http://www.global-merchants.com/home/booster.htm -- Craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Jewell Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Miniature air driven generator --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Jewell" --> He might look into solar cells for keeping his battery up. They can be had in a very thin format that could be surface mounted or attached to a canopy cover in a clear plastic pocket. Jim in Kelowna ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gilles Thesee" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Miniature air driven generator > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee > > > Hi Bob and all, > > One of my hangar buddies is asking for something special to install in > his modified Shoestring racer. > His Continental engine runs no alternator, but he needs a battery for > his engine instruments. He would like to install some small alternator > inside the cowling, and drive it with a turbine and a blast tube. 250 mA > "is all he's asking for", just to maintain his battery charged when he > spends several days away from home. On racing days, he just intends to > tape the blast air inlet to reduce drag. > > Here is my question : > > Has anyone heard of a small 12 V alternator/regulator system which could > suit his needs ? > > Any input appreciated, > Thanks in advance, > > Regards, > Gilles Thesee > Grenoble, France > http://contrails.free.fr > > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 08:56:00 PM PST US From: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Batteries --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" This item showed up in my weekly NASA Tech briefs email at work today. Sounds interesting but, as with many Tech Briefs articles, seems like it's the basic science waiting for the engineering and capital to make it a usable product. In any case, maybe some entrepreneur on the list would be interested in doing so. Sounds to me like it would be one heck of an energy source. Dean Psiropoulos RV-6A N197DM Deep into wires and instruments. SPOTLIGHT ON: Lower Cost, Higher Performance Batteries This advanced material exploits the excellent cycle life of carbon fiber and the high gravimetric and volumetric capacity of a tin-based system. This system is being utilized as a composite anode in lithium-ion batteries. The attributes of this proposed technology will definitely fulfill the battery requirements where cycle life of more than 30,000 cycles, high rate applications (>4 kW/kg), rapid charge/discharging (tens of seconds), and a calendar life of more than 10 years. http://link.abpi.net/l.php?20051219EB2