AeroElectric-List Digest Archive

Sun 12/25/05


Total Messages Posted: 19



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 12:10 AM - Manual Battery switches (Speedy11@aol.com)
     2. 04:03 AM - Re: More SD8 Installation Questions (Steve Glasgow)
     3. 05:47 AM - Re: Choosing a switch and learn how to wire it (Carlos Trigo)
     4. 06:16 AM - Re: Choosing a switch and learn how to wire it (BobsV35B@aol.com)
     5. 07:08 AM - Re: Choosing a switch and learn how to wire it (Larry Mac Donald)
     6. 07:50 AM - Re: Manual Battery switches (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     7. 07:57 AM - Re: More SD8 Installation Questions (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     8. 08:09 AM - Re: Choosing a switch and learn how to wire it (Eric M. Jones)
     9. 08:26 AM - Re: More SD8 Installation Questions (Kevin Horton)
    10. 09:23 AM - Re:More SD8 Installation Questions (Mike Holland)
    11. 11:56 AM - Re: Re: switching off an IR alternator  ()
    12. 12:18 PM - 2 Battery RV8A (Jerry Grimmonpre)
    13. 03:25 PM - [ Jeff Smith ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! (Email List Photo Shares)
    14. 03:57 PM - Re: Re: Re: switching off an IR alternator  (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    15. 05:14 PM - Re: [ Jeff Smith ] : New Email List Photo Share (sportav8r@aol.com.Available!)
    16. 05:59 PM - Re: 2 Battery RV8A (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    17. 09:24 PM - Alternator torque (switching off an IR alternator)  (Goguen, Jon)
    18. 09:55 PM - Re: Terminals for M22520/5-100 die (Goguen, Jon)
    19. 10:32 PM - Re: Choosing a switch and learn how to wire it (Speedy11@aol.com)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 12:10:30 AM PST US
    From: Speedy11@aol.com
    Subject: Manual Battery switches
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Speedy11@aol.com Have any builders opted to use manual battery switches? If so, do they work well? Any problem with the "keys?" Is there a way to paint the red plastic keys? I'm thinking about having a key machined out of aluminum if the plastic key cannot be painted. Stan Sutterfield


    Message 2


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    Time: 04:03:44 AM PST US
    From: "Steve Glasgow" <willfly@carolina.rr.com>
    Subject: Re: More SD8 Installation Questions
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Steve Glasgow" <willfly@carolina.rr.com> Hi Don, I mounted the SD-8 regulator, capacitor, S703-1 relay, and OVM-14 on the hot side of the firewall above the battery in the upper left corner looking aft on my RV*. No problem for over 2 years and 265 hours. Granted this is a pretty cool area. Steve Glasgow-Cappy N123SG RV-8 Cappy's Toy


    Message 3


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    Time: 05:47:19 AM PST US
    From: "Carlos Trigo" <trigo@mail.telepac.pt>
    Subject: Re: Choosing a switch and learn how to wire it
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Carlos Trigo" <trigo@mail.telepac.pt> Bob and Larry Thanks for your help. What I want is to run both units from one buss and alternatively both units from the other buss. And also have an Off position (both units Off). Carlos ----- Original Message ----- From: <BobsV35B@aol.com> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Choosing a switch and learn how to wire it > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com > > > In a message dated 12/24/2005 7:38:55 P.M. Central Standard Time, > lm4@juno.com writes: > > Bob, > Nice to hear from you. You can put a buss wire on the center pole of the > on-off-on switch and that will run either unit. But it was my > understanding that Carlos wanted to run one unit off one buss and both > units off the other buss. Maybe I got that screwed up ! > Larry Mac Donald > lm4@juno.com > Rochester N.Y. > > > You are probably correct, I didn't read the original question. > > Happy Skies, > > Old Bob


    Message 4


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    Time: 06:16:08 AM PST US
    From: BobsV35B@aol.com
    Subject: Re: Choosing a switch and learn how to wire it
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com In a message dated 12/25/2005 7:48:57 A.M. Central Standard Time, trigo@mail.telepac.pt writes: Bob and Larry Thanks for your help. What I want is to run both units from one buss and alternatively both units from the other buss. And also have an Off position (both units Off). Carlos Good Morning And Merry Christmas Carlos, From the above comment, I assume you have no objection to both units being connected to each other. That equates to having only one point that needs power. If that point is connected to the center contact of a single pole, double throw, center off switch, one source of power may be connected to each of the other contacts to provide exactly what you need. Switch up will power both units from one source, switch down will power both units from the other source and the center position will provide off for both units. Will that satisfy your requirements? Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8503


    Message 5


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    Time: 07:08:33 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Choosing a switch and learn how to wire it
    From: Larry Mac Donald <lm4@juno.com>
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Larry Mac Donald <lm4@juno.com> Carlos, Bob caught me in a brain dead condition. In order to do it my way you would have to put a diode into that term 1 to term 6 jumper. I'd forgotten that part of such a circuit. But forget it because you've just changed the conditions you want. To do it the way you want to do it now, that is the way I understand it. You want to: Put buss #1 onto term. #3 and buss #2 onto term. #4. Then unit #1 feed to term. #1 jumpered to term. #5. Then unit #2 feed to term. #2 jumpered to term. #6. In this condition both units will operate with the bat handle up or down but from different busses. Center position will isolate both busses. Larry > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Carlos Trigo" > <trigo@mail.telepac.pt> > Bob and Larry Thanks for your help. > What I want is to run both units from one buss and alternatively > both units > from the other buss. And also have an Off position (both units Off). Carlos > From: <BobsV35B@aol.com> > To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com> > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Choosing a switch and learn how to > wire it AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com > > In a message dated 12/24/2005 7:38:55 P.M. Central Standard Time, > > lm4@juno.com writes: > > Bob, > > Nice to hear from you. You can put a buss wire on the center pole > of the on-off-on switch and that will run either unit. But it was my > > understanding that Carlos wanted to run one unit off one buss and > both units off the other buss. Maybe I got that screwed up ! > > Larry Mac Donald > > lm4@juno.com > > Rochester N.Y. > > You are probably correct, I didn't read the original question. Happy Skies, Old Bob


    Message 6


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    Time: 07:50:18 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: Manual Battery switches
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net> At 02:57 AM 12/25/2005 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Speedy11@aol.com > >Have any builders opted to use manual battery switches? If so, do they work >well? Any problem with the "keys?" Is there a way to paint the red plastic >keys? >I'm thinking about having a key machined out of aluminum if the plastic key >cannot be painted. >Stan Sutterfield ????Why???? . . . manual battery switches are perfectly fine replacements for contactors. Many of the first electrically fitted airplanes used them along with manual starter switches. But a manual battery switch needs to be as close to the battery as your contactor would have been. Unless your battery is handy to the pilot's seat, the battery switch is not going to be handy either. I've known several builders over the years who have crafted Bowden controls to remotely operate a manual battery switch. In this case, the 'key' was replaced with a belcrank that translated the push-pull action of a Bowden control into a rotary motion required by the battery switch. Can you describe your proposed installation in more detail? Bob . . .


    Message 7


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    Time: 07:57:47 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: More SD8 Installation Questions
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net> At 10:38 PM 12/24/2005 -0800, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "DonVS" <dsvs@comcast.net> > > >Bob, >First, Merry Christmas >I am using Z13-8 and have a few questions. B&C says put the regulator and >Capacitor on the cold side of the firewall. To keep high current wires out >of the cab I would like to mount the regulator, capacitor, S703-1 relay, and >OVM-14 on the hot side of the firewall. Are these items robust (heat and >vibration wise) to live a long life on the hot side? If not can any of these >that make sense be put on the hot side? Thanks for your advise. Don VS Generally, yes. In particular, there are places on the firewall that don't get all that hot . . . although we're still contemplating the experiment that will put real numbers to "not all that hot" . . . The regulator is your major concern. Fully loaded, this puppy generates a lot of heat and the last time I saw the design, was marginally acceptable for dumping heat to the case. It's more important that the regulator get mounted on some heat sink . . . metal thick enough to carry heat away. Of course, if the ambient temperatures are lower, this helps too. But if the regulator is mounted on the back side of the firewall sheet, the ability to cool is only slightly better than being on the front side when the same sheet of metal is expected to be the heatsink. The safe, conservative thing to do is mount it inside. Lots of folks have mounted them outside and have not reported unsatisfactory service life . . . but this is purely anecdotal along with any opinions offered one way or the other. If you WANT to put it outside, then give it a try. Let us know what you discover. Bob . . .


    Message 8


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    Time: 08:09:13 AM PST US
    From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
    Subject: Re: Choosing a switch and learn how to wire it
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Carlos Trigo" trigo@mail.telepac.pt Carlos et al. A picture is worth 10,000 words. I can barely comprehend a description in words of a discussion that would be best in pictures--Although I am considering a complete text description of a Z-diagram for Bob N. to review for April Fool's day. Perhaps the real problem is how to get this discussion into images, diagrams and sketches. A Very Merry Christmas to All, Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge MA 01550-2705 (508) 764-2072 Ring the bells that still can ring Forget your perfect offering There is a crack in everything That's how the light gets in. ---Leonard Cohen


    Message 9


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    Time: 08:26:06 AM PST US
    From: Kevin Horton <khorton01@rogers.com>
    Subject: Re: More SD8 Installation Questions
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kevin Horton <khorton01@rogers.com> On 25 Dec 2005, at 10:56, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > <nuckollsr@cox.net> > > At 10:38 PM 12/24/2005 -0800, you wrote: > >> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "DonVS" <dsvs@comcast.net> >> >> Bob, >> First, Merry Christmas >> I am using Z13-8 and have a few questions. B&C says put the >> regulator and >> Capacitor on the cold side of the firewall. To keep high current >> wires out >> of the cab I would like to mount the regulator, capacitor, S703-1 >> relay, and >> OVM-14 on the hot side of the firewall. Are these items robust >> (heat and >> vibration wise) to live a long life on the hot side? If not can >> any of these >> that make sense be put on the hot side? Thanks for your advise. >> Don VS > > The safe, conservative thing to do is mount it inside. Lots > of folks have mounted them outside and have not reported > unsatisfactory service life . . . but this is purely anecdotal > along with any opinions offered one way or the other. If you WANT > to put it outside, then give it a try. Let us know what you > discover. But, most people install the SD-8 to have as a backup in case the main alternator fails. Main alternators don't fail that often, so I bet most installed SD-8s have never been used for very long. The apparently good service history might not mean that much. No matter where you install it, if you are counting on it to power your electrical system with a certain electrical load, for a given duration, you should demonstrate this capability by actual test. If you haven't demonstrated the capability, including electrical load, duration and ambient temperature, you have no way of knowing whether the SD-8 (and regulator) will be able to do the job when needed. A short test is not sufficient, as it might not get the regulator up to its stabilized temperature. Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) Ottawa, Canada http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8


    Message 10


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    Time: 09:23:21 AM PST US
    From: "Mike Holland" <hollandm@pacbell.net>
    Subject: Re:More SD8 Installation Questions
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mike Holland" <hollandm@pacbell.net> The poster doesn't indicate what flavor of RV he is building. If you install the regulator/capacitor/relay combination (and the relay is flimsy plastic), on the left side of the firewall of a 6,7 or 9, it will sit behind the oil cooler outlet and exposed to a blast of 150 - 200F+ air(on a hot climb-day). If it were me, I'd find an "accessible" location on the cold side and put it there. The upper right side on a 7/9 might be OK but you'd need to move the brake reservoir. All this depends on battery location. If it's on the hotside you should watch out that you don't hang something above it too close that you can't remove it from the case for service or replacement. Mike Holland Do not archive


    Message 11


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    Time: 11:56:02 AM PST US
    From: <gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: Re: switching off an IR alternator
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com> I have the exact same alternator and familiar with the instructions you quote. >*..at low RPM will cause extra strain on the alternator and >drive belt.* Way too much has been made of the words *extra strain*. Just replace the word *strain* with effort or force. The intent is only to be aware that at idle you may not have rated output and load MAY need to be moderated. The belt clearly needs to transmit greater torque with high (electrical) demand at low RPM's. Is it critical? No, I can't imagine it's critical to the belt, but it makes a point. P=power (watts) rpm = revs per min You can see if P(watts) goes up or RPM goes down, T or torque goes up. The higher torque the more the belt strains, albeit not critical. Belts on cars experience wildly varying RPM's all the time; these belts run accessories like A/C compressors and power steering pumps; I think they may have it worse than our alternator belt runing at one RPM. Take it for what it is. Spin alternator faster if you want to use it's rated power or watch your total load or *strain*, by sizing the alternator properly or reducing load at low RPM's. >*Consider reducing the total load in these situations, or switching >the alternator off* Given the choice I would lower the load on the alternator. Notice the word CONSIDER. It does not say do it. I personally would not do it. An occasional non-continuous high load at low RPM is not critical. Allowed too long the alternator may heat the alternator up and it may shut down (automatically). The nice part of the internal regulator is if the alternator runs hot it will shut itself down. Having the regulator actually on the alternator allows it monitor temp and protect it. However you don't want to intentionally run your alternator HOT or *strain* it. However I have SIZED my alternator to provide the proper available power for the load, even at idle. The only chance I would need to load shed, is at idle, night with a long delay. For me my pulley ratio is 3 to 1, some may have a 3.9 to 1 ratio. Fast idle (say 1000 rpm) my alternator is only at 3000 rpm, which equates to about 30 amps. If I need 30 amps I could increase the RPM to about 1670 RPM to get rated output (43amps) or just lower load. Since my typical realistic night taxi load is around 21 amps I am OK, but I don't have heated pitot or seats. Everything on would be at 31 amps, so I do have to watch it to some degree. >*Thus, I gather that not all IR alternators are created equal and >that switching off this alternator is considered a normal activity.* As far as regulators being different that is true, but you have a genuine ND all made in Japan alternator and the regulator is part number: 126000-1160 and has the following specs (equiv aftermarket): http://195.125.241.148/catalog/spec_d/IN254.gif or http://www.vicic.com.tw/alternators/a8062902.jpg Notice the above specs for fun and giggles. The IR function's as you can see is not just voltage control only. Bottom line: Never have a routine reason to switch alternator off under load IGN wire can't be relied on for emergency isolation, so. CB on the B-lead to isolate alternator for non-normal conditions Merry Christmas, Happy New Year and Happy Holiday's G >From: Joelrhaynes@aol.com >Subject: switching off an IR alternator >I was surprised when I read the documentation that came with >my new CAM 040AD IR alternator that came attached to my >new Aero. came with the documentation is in >Japanese. Note the following quote from the product >documentation. >"Conditions in which a very high draw is being made of the >alternator at low RPM will cause extra strain on the alternator >and drive belt. Consider reducing the total load in these >situations, or switching the alternator off and drawing from the >battery only, if the high load will be brief." >Thus, I gather that not all IR alternators are created equal and >that switching off this alternator is considered a normal activity. >Joel Haynes >RV-7A (hanging the engine) >Bozeman, MT --------------------------------- ---------------------------------


    Message 12


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    Time: 12:18:05 PM PST US
    From: "Jerry Grimmonpre" <jerry@mc.net>
    Subject: 2 Battery RV8A
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jerry Grimmonpre" <jerry@mc.net> Bob ... Assuming front and rear batt are equally charged. For an IO-360 engine start I want to tie both batts together for max start energy. Front batt CABLE to starter is #4 for approx 6 feet. Rear batt WIRE will be 8 feet and will tie to the #4 Cable for start. Rear batt is 26AH, front is 20AH. What is the WIRE size needed to enable the rear batt to boost the front batt and not over heat the WIRE? Easy answer is to use CABLE from the rear batt but I'm betting there is another answer. I want to avoid using CABLE from rear batt. Thanks for your patient teachings and great answers... Jerry Grimmonpre' RV8A


    Message 13


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    Time: 03:25:28 PM PST US
    Subject: [ Jeff Smith ] : New Email List Photo Share Available!
    From: Email List Photo Shares <pictures@matronics.com>
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Email List Photo Shares <pictures@matronics.com> A new Email List Photo Share is available: Poster: Jeff Smith <SMITHBKN@aol.com> Lists: AeroElectric-List Subject: Requesting Peer Review of Electrical Architecture http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/SMITHBKN@aol.com.12.25.2005/index.html o Main Photo Share Index http://www.matronics.com/photoshare o Submitting a Photo Share If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the following information along with your email message and files: 1) Email List or Lists that they are related to: 2) Your Full Name: 3) Your Email Address: 4) One line Subject description: 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic: 6) One-line Description of each photo or file: Email the information above and your files and photos to: pictures@matronics.com


    Message 14


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    Time: 03:57:46 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: Re: switching off an IR alternator
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net> At 11:54 AM 12/25/2005 -0800, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com> > >I have the exact same alternator and familiar with the instructions >you quote. > > >*..at low RPM will cause extra strain on the alternator and > >drive belt.* > > >Way too much has been made of the words *extra strain*. Just replace the > >word *strain* with effort or force. The intent is only to be aware that at > >idle you may not have rated output and load MAY need to be moderated. > > >The belt clearly needs to transmit greater torque with high (electrical) > >demand at low RPM's. > > >Is it critical? No, I can't imagine it's critical to the belt, but it > makes a point. What point? I could say, "Touching down at 60Kts puts an 'extra strain' on tires. I recommend you make an effort to avoid putting the wheels on the ground at more than 55Kts. Or how about, "Turning the pitot heater on causes 'extra strain' on the electrical system due to very high inrush currents while the heater is cold. Recommend you turn everything else off before turning the pitot heater ON. Wait at least 30 seconds before bringing other equipment back on line." Placarding an airplane for such silliness could get one drummed out of the business. This whole discussion on "extra strain" on alternators and belts is similarly silly. > > >Take it for what it is. Spin alternator faster if you want to use it's > rated > >power or watch your total load or *strain*, by sizing the alternator > >properly or reducing load at low RPM's. What are "low RPMs"? The alternator's ability to draw torque is maximum at or above minimum speed for full output. Below those speeds, torque MUST go down with RPM because the ability of the magnetics to change mechanical energy to electrical energy goes down. I haven't talked with who ever thought this myth up but it seems to suggest that as speeds drop, torque goes UP proportionately so that at, say 1/2 speed for full output, one might expect to DOUBLE the torque the alternator can draw. It's simply not so. Yes. Turn things ON, strains on systems go up. You turn things OFF and strains go down. #1 rule of system design is to accommodate all strains under all operating conditions such that any need to nurse the system for strains goes away. The best way to avoid straining an engine is never feed it fuel and start it up. But if you want to go fly, and you want to run electro-whizzies, then the systems you put in place to accommodate the mission should be sized to the task. ALL strains in all systems are taken in stride as the normal and expected course of events. It's the good engineering way. If one takes this topic for what it truly is . . . an anecdotal fact with no operational relevance then the need to discuss it evaporates. Seriously discussing such trivial concerns does not help the neophyte builder and in fact, evidence shows that it raises unwarranted concerns and propagates myths. One strives to design a system that minimizes pilot workload, minimizes probability of uncomfortable termination of flight and minimizes cost of ownership. Teaching our fellow builders how to worry about the manner and sequence in which the alternator is loaded is either (1) a manifestation of poor system design or (2) BS. Let's help our friends avoid the first and accurately identify the second. I still want to talk to any supplier who offers such advice for either physics that help us design around over-stressing their product or demonstrates that they too have succumbed to someone's popular myth. In any case, advising the builder/designer to incorporate such operational concerns into their project is not good design or marketing. Bob . . .


    Message 15


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    Time: 05:14:25 PM PST US
    From: sportav8r@aol.com.Available!
    Subject: Re: [ Jeff Smith ] : New Email List Photo Share
    Available! --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com Available! 2 questions: how do you draw that in Excel? I'd like to know how to do that. Will that battery relay carry the starter current okay? -Stormy -----Original Message----- From: Email List Photo Shares <pictures@matronics.com> Subject: AeroElectric-List: [ Jeff Smith ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Email List Photo Shares <pictures@matronics.com> A new Email List Photo Share is available: Poster: Jeff Smith <SMITHBKN@aol.com> Lists: AeroElectric-List Subject: Requesting Peer Review of Electrical Architecture http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/SMITHBKN@aol.com.12.25.2005/index.html o Main Photo Share Index http://www.matronics.com/photoshare o Submitting a Photo Share If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the following information along with your email message and files: 1) Email List or Lists that they are related to: 2) Your Full Name: 3) Your Email Address: 4) One line Subject description: 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic: 6) One-line Description of each photo or file: Email the information above and your files and photos to: pictures@matronics.com


    Message 16


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    Time: 05:59:07 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: 2 Battery RV8A
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net> At 02:17 PM 12/25/2005 -0600, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jerry Grimmonpre" <jerry@mc.net> > >Bob ... >Assuming front and rear batt are equally charged. For an IO-360 engine >start I want to tie both batts together for max start energy. Front batt >CABLE to starter is #4 for approx 6 feet. Rear batt WIRE will be 8 feet and >will tie to the #4 Cable for start. Rear batt is 26AH, front is 20AH. > >What is the WIRE size needed to enable the rear batt to boost the front batt >and not over heat the WIRE? Easy answer is to use CABLE from the rear batt >but I'm betting there is another answer. I want to avoid using CABLE from >rear batt. >Thanks for your patient teachings and great answers... #4awg is fine for all. There's no compelling reason to attempt to "balance" duties of the two batteries . . . particularly in the cranking mode (seconds per flight hour). Bob . . .


    Message 17


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    Time: 09:24:52 PM PST US
    Subject: Alternator torque (switching off an IR alternator)
    From: "Goguen, Jon" <Jon.Goguen@umassmed.edu>
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Goguen, Jon" <Jon.Goguen@umassmed.edu> I don't know how relevant it is to any particular installation, but if an alternator is delivering constant power the torgue will indeed double as the RPM is halved. The relevant equation is the same for alternators as it is for electric motors: power output is directly proportional to the product of RPM and torque. So, if an alternator is capable or delivering 350 watts (25 amps @ 14 volts) at 1500 RPM, twice the torque is needed to yield this power as would required to get 350 watts from the same same alternator at 3000 RPM. Of course, the alternator may not be capable of twice the power (700 watts) at the higher RPM due to magnetic saturation etc, but that isn't the issue. If one were designing an alternator drive mechanism, the power to be delivered by the alternator at low RPM would be a key factor in determining the torque requirement for the drive. The torque required for power generation is much larger than that contributed by rotor inertia and friction in automotive alternators. Jon -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Re: switching off an IR alternator --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net> At 11:54 AM 12/25/2005 -0800, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com> > >I have the exact same alternator and familiar with the instructions >you quote. > > >*..at low RPM will cause extra strain on the alternator and > >drive belt.* > > >Way too much has been made of the words *extra strain*. Just replace the > >word *strain* with effort or force. The intent is only to be aware that at > >idle you may not have rated output and load MAY need to be moderated. > > >The belt clearly needs to transmit greater torque with high (electrical) > >demand at low RPM's. > > >Is it critical? No, I can't imagine it's critical to the belt, but it > makes a point. What point? I could say, "Touching down at 60Kts puts an 'extra strain' on tires. I recommend you make an effort to avoid putting the wheels on the ground at more than 55Kts. Or how about, "Turning the pitot heater on causes 'extra strain' on the electrical system due to very high inrush currents while the heater is cold. Recommend you turn everything else off before turning the pitot heater ON. Wait at least 30 seconds before bringing other equipment back on line." Placarding an airplane for such silliness could get one drummed out of the business. This whole discussion on "extra strain" on alternators and belts is similarly silly. > > >Take it for what it is. Spin alternator faster if you want to use it's > rated > >power or watch your total load or *strain*, by sizing the alternator > >properly or reducing load at low RPM's. What are "low RPMs"? The alternator's ability to draw torque is maximum at or above minimum speed for full output. Below those speeds, torque MUST go down with RPM because the ability of the magnetics to change mechanical energy to electrical energy goes down. I haven't talked with who ever thought this myth up but it seems to suggest that as speeds drop, torque goes UP proportionately so that at, say 1/2 speed for full output, one might expect to DOUBLE the torque the alternator can draw. It's simply not so. Yes. Turn things ON, strains on systems go up. You turn things OFF and strains go down. #1 rule of system design is to accommodate all strains under all operating conditions such that any need to nurse the system for strains goes away. The best way to avoid straining an engine is never feed it fuel and start it up. But if you want to go fly, and you want to run electro-whizzies, then the systems you put in place to accommodate the mission should be sized to the task. ALL strains in all systems are taken in stride as the normal and expected course of events. It's the good engineering way. If one takes this topic for what it truly is . . . an anecdotal fact with no operational relevance then the need to discuss it evaporates. Seriously discussing such trivial concerns does not help the neophyte builder and in fact, evidence shows that it raises unwarranted concerns and propagates myths. One strives to design a system that minimizes pilot workload, minimizes probability of uncomfortable termination of flight and minimizes cost of ownership. Teaching our fellow builders how to worry about the manner and sequence in which the alternator is loaded is either (1) a manifestation of poor system design or (2) BS. Let's help our friends avoid the first and accurately identify the second. I still want to talk to any supplier who offers such advice for either physics that help us design around over-stressing their product or demonstrates that they too have succumbed to someone's popular myth. In any case, advising the builder/designer to incorporate such operational concerns into their project is not good design or marketing. Bob . . .


    Message 18


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    Time: 09:55:07 PM PST US
    Subject: Terminals for M22520/5-100 die
    From: "Goguen, Jon" <Jon.Goguen@umassmed.edu>
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Goguen, Jon" <Jon.Goguen@umassmed.edu> Thanks Bob. I had a very curious conversation with Daniels trying to get this information. I told them which tool and die I had, and asked for reccomended terminals. I was told that they couldn't provide this information. However, they did say offer to confirm if the die would crimp a specific terminal if I provided the part number. I told them I had consulted their catalog, and that this die was the only one listed for crimping pre-insulated terminals from 10-26 AWG. No good. I was told that the proper sequence is to specifiy my terminals, then buy the tool. I suggested that if their computer could work the problem one way, it ought to also be workable the other way around. Nope. They then asked if I was in the aircraft industry, and I admitted my outsider status. They seemed releived to know this, and provided no more information. I was also unsuccessful in finding mil-spec status for either the PIDG or Avicrimp terminals, so would have been reduced to the experimental route if you hadn't come through. By the way, the Daniels HX-4 with this die seems to be quite common on Ebay and sells in $50 range. Thanks again, Jon -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Terminals for M22520/5-100 die --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net> At 01:54 PM 12/19/2005 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jon Goguen <jon.goguen@umassmed.edu> > >I recently bought a Daniels HX-4 crimping tool with an M22520/5-100 >(Daniels Y501) die for pre-insulated terminals in AWG 10-26 range. >Anyone know which brands of terminals work well with this die? Found the die listed on p.31 of http://www.astrotool.com/pdf/Astro.pdf but nothing in this document that explains Die set used with 620175 crimp tool frame to crimp size 22 thru 10 insulated terminals and splices conforming to MS17143, MS25036, MIL-T-7928, MS25274, and MS27429. The 630045 die set is an improved version (not mil-spec) which provides a tighter crimp on smaller wires. Sorry to take so long on this. Had to go look some things up. The AMP PIDG terminals are in the MS25036 family of military qualified devices. Therefore, the tool you're asking about should do nicely with these highly recommended terminals (along with other equivalent brands like Molex "Avicrimp") Bob . . .


    Message 19


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    Time: 10:32:24 PM PST US
    From: Speedy11@aol.com
    Subject: Re: Choosing a switch and learn how to wire it
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Speedy11@aol.com "But it was my understanding that Carlos wanted to run one unit off one buss and both units off the other buss. Maybe I got that screwed up !" Larry and Old Bob, What Carlos said was, "what I want is a switch that has 1 OFF position (no power for both EFIS units), 1 ON position (power from one source bus is feeding both units) and other ON position (power from 2nd source bus is feeding both units" So, I read it that He wants to power both EFIS units simultaneously with either bus. It seems as though Larry's solution would work. Stan Sutterfield




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