Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:02 AM - Re: D25 Steering Diode Question ? (LarryRobertHelming)
2. 05:09 AM - Re: noise (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
3. 05:37 AM - Re: Accessory load monitoring (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 05:38 AM - Re: Key Switch - single mag (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 05:51 AM - Re: Re: Switch Washers/ugly hole (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 05:56 AM - Re: Use Of Diode on S704-1 Relay (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 06:49 AM - cross feed contactor (Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta))
8. 07:01 AM - Better List Conduct...Practical Matters.... (Eric M. Jones)
9. 07:27 AM - Close Proximity Air2Air Comm problem (HELP!) (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
10. 07:32 AM - Re: Re: Copy of my letter to Niagara Airparts. (Chuck Jensen)
11. 07:36 AM - Re: Re: Switch Washers/ugly hole (Dan Checkoway)
12. 07:38 AM - coax stripper (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
13. 07:52 AM - Re: Close Proximity Air2Air Comm problem (HELP!) (Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta))
14. 08:38 AM - Re: Wingtip Light Monitors (Gary Edwards)
15. 08:52 AM - Re: Wiring Diagrams Design Software (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
16. 09:32 AM - Re: Re: Wiring Diagrams Design Software (Matt Prather)
17. 09:49 AM - Re: Close Proximity Air2Air Comm problem (HELP!) (sportav8r@AOL.COM)
18. 09:51 AM - Re: Re: Wiring Diagrams Design Software (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
19. 10:04 AM - Re: Re: Wiring Diagrams Design Software (Steve Allison)
20. 10:13 AM - Re: Re: Wiring Diagrams Design Software (rv-9a-online)
21. 10:24 AM - Re: Re: Copy of my letter to Niagara Airparts. (Gordon or Marge Comfort)
22. 11:15 AM - Re: Re: Wiring Diagrams Design Software (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
23. 11:24 AM - Re: Close Proximity Air2Air Comm problem (HELP!) (G McNutt)
24. 11:24 AM - Re: Close Proximity Air2Air Comm problem (Dave Morris \)
25. 11:34 AM - Re: Re: Wiring Diagrams Design Software (Steve Thomas)
26. 11:55 AM - Re: Re: Wiring Diagrams Design Software (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
27. 01:04 PM - Re: Close Proximity Air2Air Comm problem (HELP!) (Alan K. Adamson)
28. 01:31 PM - Re: Wiring Diagrams Design Software (Dave Morris \)
29. 02:11 PM - Re: Instrument Panel Labels (Mark R Steitle)
30. 03:14 PM - Re: Instrument Panel Labels (Craig Payne)
31. 04:11 PM - Re: Wiring Diagrams Design Software (Dan Beadle)
32. 04:35 PM - Re: Re: Wiring Diagrams Design Software (Ken)
33. 05:10 PM - Re: Re: Wiring Diagrams Design Software (William Slaughter)
34. 05:24 PM - Re: Better List Conduct...Practical (Charlie Kuss)
35. 06:22 PM - Re: Better List Conduct...Practical Matters.... (Peter Laurence)
36. 06:47 PM - Heat sink for Schottky diode (Charlie Kuss)
37. 07:23 PM - was noise (bob noffs)
38. 07:47 PM - Re: Heat sink for Schottky diode (Craig Payne)
39. 09:18 PM - Re: The Duplicitous Copy of my letter to Niagara ()
40. 09:24 PM - Re: what is an engineer, flame suit technology ()
41. 09:46 PM - Re: Re: The Duplicitous Copy of my letter to Niagara (Craig Payne)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: D25 Steering Diode Question ? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming" <lhelming@sigecom.net>
I agree. The down side to Eric's Schottkey diode is that it is not as
friendly in mounting with fused buses as the D25. I am toying with the idea
of gluing my Schottkey to a piece of angle aluminum to isolate it and mount
it to the frame using plastic screws. Not sue if the glue will handle the
heat however. I am using fused buses FWIW. A good heat sink with isolation
mounting would be very nice support for Eric in my opinion.
Indiana Larry
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Olson" <Tim@MyRV10.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: D25 Steering Diode Question ?
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
>
> You already got your official answer from Bob, so this is just
> a bonus confirmation. Yes, you have 2 diodes that you can use
> in parallel, with a common output. You won't get a lot more current
> carrying, because it's still just coming out one terminal, but
> you can use both diodes if you're so inclined. I just wired mine
> yesterday and used both.
>
> I'm also hoping that Eric gets a good mounting kit for his
> schottky diode, as I'd really like to use that one instead
> if possible.
>
> Tim
>
> Tim Olson -- RV-10 #40170
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 2
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 08:12 PM 1/2/2006 -0600, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "bob noffs" <icubob@newnorth.net>
>
> hi all,
> laying out my panel and i have my intercom right next to my turn coor.
> am i asking for noise from the turn coor.? if so, how far should i move
> the intercom? thanks in advance,
>
>bob noffs
There is no standard proscription for co-locating
accessories on your panel. In the TC aircraft world
we've been able to depend on recommendations of
DO-160/Mil-Std-704 and cousins to predict a long,
prosperous and neighborly relationship between the
ships various accessories.
I presume your concerns arise from the numbers
of past threads where folks have had problems with
certain brands of turn coordinator. Know that not
all turn coordinators are the same and the majority
will happily co-exist on a panel with other accessories.
If your thinking about using one of the "bad boys"
with a history of problems, know that there are two
major propagation modes for noise from these devices:
(1) magnetic coupling - easily broken with a two-
or three layer wrap of galvanized sheet metal
(roof flashing) around the case. This can be
a long strip wrapped around the instrument and
held in place with tie-wraps.
(2) RFI noise coupled out the wiring at the back
of the instrument. It may be as simple as adding
a filter capacitor or may take a combination of
capacitor and inductor to stop off the noise.
Both of these fixes can and should be installed later
and only after you know that they're necessary. Bottom
line is that I'd really hate to see you shuffle your
panel appearance and utility to mitigate concerns
for a situation that's best dealt with after the
rest of the wiring and installation is completed.
Have you considered one of the new, solid state
rate gyros out there? Much more reliable and in the
long run, probably lower cost of ownership.
Bob . . .
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Accessory load monitoring |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 11:19 PM 1/1/2006 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
>
>Howdy A-list!
>
>I know this is nothing electric, but that's part of what makes it so cool.
>It worked out so well I just thought I'd share with the rest of y'all!
>
>http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/index.php?q=log_entry&log_id=7883
>
>Click on the fotos for a better view and >>Next Entry>> to the next two pages
>for the "how-to". Lemme know if ya got any ?s.
Pretty neat . . . and imaginative! Thanks for sharing this.
There are some electronic ways to detect electrical integrity
of various loads too. One of the simplest is illustrated at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Misc/CurrentSense.jpg
You can buy the contact capsule for a reed relay or
switch from various sources. I believe Radio Shack
sells them still. It takes some experimentation to size
the excitation coil with the load. It takes more turns
to detect say a 2A nav light than it does to monitor
a 100W landing light or pitot tube.
A schematic of an exemplar installation is shown at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/DeIce/Pitot_Heat.pdf
This technique is used in many of our TC aircraft to
make sure that when an accessory is ON, that it is also
drawing current. We use them on pitot heaters and electric
windshields. They could just as easily be applied to any
remotely located but not easily observed load like light
bulbs. Many automobiles use electronic voltage/current
detectors to warn drivers of burned out lamps. At one
time I considered an article on applying one of the modern
voltage/load detector chips . . . but abandoned the idea
in favor of the reed relay technique. The chip was
pretty neat but required some etched circuit boards
and assembly techniques not common to the OBAM aircraft
builder's stock and trade. The custom reed relays are
simple and just as effective.
Sometimes the best way to drive a nail is with a hammer.
Bob . . .
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Key Switch - single mag |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 06:14 PM 1/1/2006 +0000, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "bob rundle" <bobrundle2@hotmail.com>
>
>Can someone tell me how to wire a standard key switch (L,R,BOTH,START) for a
>single mag? I have a separate switch for a single plasma III ignition. The
>single left mag is has impulse coupling and I start with the mag only and
>the elec. ign off.
Wire it just like you had two mags . . . except nothing is
connected to the right mag terminal.
Bob . . .
Message 5
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| Subject: | RE: Switch Washers/ugly hole |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
I always put anti-rotation washers on the back side. If your switch
panel includes an engraved overlay, then holes in the panel for the
tab holes can go all the way through . . . and tabs on washers trimmed
to insure they are flush or under-flush to the panel surface. If your
panel plans don't include an engraved overlay, then consider a rear shim of
sheet metal drilled for the anti-rotation tabs . . . the instrument
panel surface stays clean. Again, you may have to trim the anti-rotation tabs
a bit. I would avoid any kind of gluing operation for this installation
except maybe to hold the rear shim in place . . . a couple of spots of
Sho-Goo works good.
Bob . . .
At 11:28 AM 12/31/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
>
>Another way is to forget the washer and put a dab of RTV on the back/side of
>the switch after it's tight.
>
>Bruce
>www.glasair.org
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ron
>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Switch Washers/ugly hole
>
>
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ron" <rondefly@rtriano.com>
>
>I have a suggestion that works for me and wanted to pass it on to the list.
>I did not want to drill a 1/8" hole above the Switch hole for cosmetic
>reasons. What I suggest is to sharpen to a small point the part of the
>washer that is against the back of your panel with just enough of a point to
>press into the back of the panel. This will keep all things from turning and
>you won't have the exposed hole. I used carbon fibre sheet for the panel and
>it works fine, should work with any other material also.
>
>Ron Triano
>
>http://bld01.ipowerweb.com/contentmanagement/websites/rtrianoc/page10.html
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
>Nuckolls, III
>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Circuit Breaker v. Fuse
>
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
><nuckollsr@cox.net>
>
>At 07:28 PM 12/29/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>
> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones"
><emjones@charter.net>
> >
> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rogers, Bob J." BRogers@fdic.gov
> >
> >...snip...
> > >My question is this. If I use 18 awg wire
> > >with a 10 amp fuse from the power bus up to the 5 amp circuit breaker,
> > >will the 5 amp breaker trip before the 10 amp fuse blows in the event of
> > >a dead short in the wire, such as from a Crowbar OV Module?
> >
> > >I do not want the fuse at the power bus to blow before the circuit
> > >breaker pops,
> >
> >The expectation is that a smaller CB is faster than a bigger one. But be
> >very careful. You could be wrong.
> >
> > >Somewhere, I read that fuses react faster than circuit breakers, so I am
> > >asking how many more amps does the fuse have to carry
> > >before I can be sure that it will not blow before the 5 amp CB pops.
> >
> >In general, fuses depend on thermal heating to break and this has some time
> >lags. Circuit breakes usually do too, but breakers can be magnetic or
> >electronic and can operate at any speed.
> >
> > >the alternator cannot be reset in flight from a nuisance trip.
> >
> >Google " AeroElectric nuisance OR false trips " then decide.
> >
> > >Any advice will be appreciated.
> >
> >My advice is don't use a crowbar, then none of this will be an issue.
>
> How is this useful? I did Google the phrases you suggested
> and got the full dump of most of the threads on the topic
> that were posted on this list server.
>
> There has never been an argument that some combinations of
> the AeroElectric/B&C ov protection systems needed tweaking.
> Much has been made of a handful of individuals who CLAIM to
> have had a lot of trouble but declined to take us up on our
> 100% satisfaction guarantee for refund on materials unsuited
> to the buyer's wants/needs.
>
> I made an offer right here on the list to refund the purchase
> price of any crowbar ov product purchased from me along with
> a bonus of $50. Gee, you'd think that at least one unhappy
> customer would come forward to claim his $85 prize. I spent
> hours of research for hard data to back up the engineering
> choices on our product and received nothing back but blue
> smoke and mud balls.
>
> Nothing is mentioned about failures in the Van's alternator
> installations being just as susceptible to the load-dump
> damage irrespective of what type of ov protection is offered . . .
> but lots of inferences that figure Z-24 was the root cause
> of the failures and was to be avoided. I note that
> Niagra Airparts is offering an ov protection system for their
> 40A alternator installation. See:
>
>http://www.niagaraairparts.com/ASP101-PIT%201.pdf
>
> Hmmmm . . . amazing similar to Z-24 . . . do you suppose that
> an owner/builder could blow up his alternator with this
> system too?
>
> Nothing is said in these threads or other on-line discussions
> about the thousands of systems flying for nearly 20 years in
> OBAM aircraft and now probably over 1000 systems flying in
> type certificated aircraft. The only words speaking to our
> demonstrated willingness to fix what ever problems do arise
> came from myself. I only wish some of the multi$kilo$
> systems I wrestle with on bizjets had so high a field
> service record as the crowbar ov system we've sold to GA
> light aircraft.
>
> If you're suggesting that a prudent buying decision can
> be made based on the search terms you've suggested . . .
> well . . . the dearth of logic in this advice is self
> evident. You've ridden this horse to death sir. Give it
> up.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>--
>
>
>-- incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------------------
< Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition >
< of man. Advances which permit this norm to be >
< exceeded -- here and there, now and then -- are the >
< work of an extremely small minority, frequently >
< despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed >
< by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny >
< minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes >
< happens) is driven out of a society, the people >
< then slip back into abject poverty. >
< >
< This is known as "bad luck". >
< -Lazarus Long- >
<------------------------------------------------------>
http://www.aeroelectric.com
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Use Of Diode on S704-1 Relay |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 08:02 PM 12/30/2005 +0000, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: dsvs@comcast.net
>
>Hi Bob,
>On Diagram z-32 you show a diode between the coil wires on the S704
>relay. On Z-13/8 the S704 that is used in the alternate alternator
>circuit has an OVM-14 but no diiode. Will you explain why there is no
>diode present in one circuit and there is one present in the other? Does
>the OVM-14 negate the need for the diode? Thanks. Don
Good question. There's no reason not to treat
the relay installation you've cited like all the
rest. I'm not real sure how the crowbar module
contributes to the negative spike mitigation . . .
I'll have to go measure that. However, if you'd
like to include a diode on the relay, here's a way
to get it installed.
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Relays/s704inst.jpg
Bob . . .
Message 7
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| Subject: | cross feed contactor |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" <mstewart@iss.net>
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/s701-2.jpg
I have this contactor above for my alternator feed and the crow bar ov
protector wired to it. I have an internally regulated alternator.
I need a diagram of how to wire the crowbar to it and which studs do
what.
As an example, looking at this image above, and numbering the studs left
to right, 1-4. Is the #1 stud alternator input, #2 coil engage +12, #3
coil gnd, #4 output +12?
Thanks for the help.
Mike
Do not archive
Message 8
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| Subject: | Better List Conduct...Practical Matters.... |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
Guys....
All this stuff looks like a yellow sh*t storm to me. I actually take some
iconoclastic guilty pleasure from seeing George lambaste Bob, and Bob recite
his experience and around and around it goes.
The college I went to tossed me out with a degree when they discovered that
my barely post-pubescent head was a full as they could stuff it. A degree,
like a pilot's certificate is only a license to learn more stuff. Pity the
graduate or the pilot who stops learning...and there are many.
I actually (at times) do measure people by their degrees, but I make
distinctions between Eastern US versus Western US versus European and every
kind and type of farm college, military, technical school and people who
have tattoos. But it's a waste of time.
My New Year's Wishes:
I would like to see personalities kept out of the discussion. I would like
to see Bob N. not waste his time defending himself (his good works are
plentifully abundant and apparent). I would like to see AeroElectric Listers
eschew invective, and refrain from personal attacks OR personal adoration
(except for obituaries perhaps). If we have to see Bob's resume one more
time perhaps we should post OUR resumes. Then what a bore we all will be.
Personalities should never be the issue here. We are all good and bad some
times.
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
(508) 764-2072
"The problem with the world is that only the intelligent people want to be
smarter, and only the good people want to improve."
- Eolake Stobblehouse
Message 9
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| Subject: | Close Proximity Air2Air Comm problem (HELP!) |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
Howdy all-
After another frustrating couple of occasions trying to communicate with
fellow formators I MUST come up with some solution to this problem. Recap-
whenever closer than 300' (MOL) to other planes, transmissions from other planes
are
typically very garbled & unreadable on my Microair 760. They can hear me
fine & radio works excellent at greater distances. Several listers here have
suggested BNC attenuators to resolve this, but most I've found are limited to
less than the output power of the 760 (about 5watts). See:
http://www.smelectronics.us/bnc,fattenuators.htm
A representative for JFW Industries claims to have a 50 ohm/5 watt unit at a
reasonable price ($45) that he claims will do what I need. Unfortunately, it
seems installing one of these "should" mitigate the formation problem, but
longer-range comm will suffer. I asked about a "switchable" unit. The rep said
it's possible, but much pricier (custom job).
Another A-lister suggested a microwave switch to bypass the attenuator when
not needed.
Bob N. has offered to produce a kit to address the problem, but would have to
order circuit boards and put together parts lists, and could only do so if at
least 4 units were ordered. I haven't heard from anyone else having my
"problem", so that's likely a bust. (Bob- if you see this, is the unit you allude
to similar to the "Active Attenuator for VHF-FM" suggested for fox hunts shown
in the References section of the ARRL handbook? Mine is 78th edition (2001)-
unit is page 30.64) If my understanding of this unit is right, it works by
generating mixing products using an oscillator (requiring tuning reception to
off-frequency? Not sure how this works for transmitting)
Microair tech support suggests the following: "The radio's operation is
normal. What you need is an antenna switch with a lower gain antenna for these
situations. This should reduce the receiver sensitivity at the front end. When
you aren't in formation or in close proximity to other aircraft, you should be
able to switch back to your bent whip for greater sensitivity at the lower
end."
Possible solution: I have a couple of Rubber Duckie antennas. I could mount
one of these to a BNC receptacle on the larger side of a dedicated metal box
(about 3"x3"x1") under my panel with the RD pointed toward the floor. A short
RG400 patch cord from the 760 to the box, and the belly antenna RG400 to
another receptacle on the box. A SPDT switch also mounted to the box would simply
connect either the RD or main antenna to the 760. (Fancier yet, make it a
DPDT feeding a lamp on my annunciator: "AUX ANT ON") If the proximity of the RD
to panel stuff turned out to be a problem, it could be re-located somewhere
aft via a separate RG400, such as under the transverse seat back brace (RV-6A
tip-up).
What say ye wise ones?
Thanks for any suggestions or critique- I have GOTTA fix this!
Mark Phillips - do not archive
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Copy of my letter to Niagara Airparts. |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Chuck Jensen" <cjensen@dts9000.com>
Ah, yes, I believe some states have such laws....usually passed at the
behest of...you guessed it, Engineers. Easier to protect your profession
with laws than with good services and products.
Of course, there are a lot of engineers that do a lot of engineering but
technically, if you want to be an "Engineer", you're allegedly supposed
to be degreed, certified or blessed.
But know this, irrespective of the length of Campbell Soup appellations
after your name, you will be known by your work, not your titles. This
is a scary thought for many Engineers.
Chuck
Do Not Archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John
Schroeder
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Copy of my letter to Niagara
Airparts.
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Schroeder"
<jschroeder@perigee.net>
Isn't it against state law in a lot of states to use the title
"Engineer"
if one is not a registered PE in that state? I believe this is the case
here in NC.
Cheers,
John Schroeder
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Switch Washers/ugly hole |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
> I always put anti-rotation washers on the back side. If your switch
> panel includes an engraved overlay, then holes in the panel for the
> tab holes can go all the way through . . . and tabs on washers trimmed
> to insure they are flush or under-flush to the panel surface. If your
> panel plans don't include an engraved overlay, then consider a rear shim
> of
> sheet metal drilled for the anti-rotation tabs . . . the instrument
> panel surface stays clean. Again, you may have to trim the anti-rotation
> tabs
> a bit. I would avoid any kind of gluing operation for this installation
> except maybe to hold the rear shim in place . . . a couple of spots of
> Sho-Goo works good.
>
> Bob . . .
You took the words out of my mouth. Except there's no need to hold the rear
shim in place if it serves more than one switch...it will be held and have
its own anti-rotation feature by virtue of being held by multiple switches.
See here:
http://rvproject.com/images/2003/20030615_switch_backing_plate.jpg
http://rvproject.com/images/2003/20030615_drilling_switch_holes.jpg
Yes, those photos show the plate on the front of the panel, but it installs
on the rear:
http://rvproject.com/images/2003/20030701_switch_alignment_plate.jpg
Sorry, those are crummy photos from my old camera, but you get the point.
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D (756 hours since 3/27/04)
http://www.rvproject.com
Message 12
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
Comments/Questions: Bob: I want a top notch Coaxial stripper for RG 400.
What do you suggest? Have a good New Year. John
Here's my personal favorite. I stock these to give
away as part of the door prize pool at my seminars.
http://www.gilchrist-electric.com/3-blade-coax-cable-strip.html
You can purchase these off Ebay or directly from Gilchrist.
Bob . . .
-----------------------------------------
( Experience and common sense cannot be )
( replaced with policy and procedures. )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
-----------------------------------------
Message 13
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| Subject: | Close Proximity Air2Air Comm problem (HELP!) |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" <mstewart@iss.net>
This is not an unusual problem.
I have it and Id say about 1 in 4 formation guys see this problem in
RV's.
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Fiveonepw@aol.com
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Close Proximity Air2Air Comm problem (HELP!)
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
Howdy all-
After another frustrating couple of occasions trying to communicate with
fellow formators I MUST come up with some solution to this problem.
Recap-
whenever closer than 300' (MOL) to other planes, transmissions from
other planes are
typically very garbled & unreadable on my Microair 760. They can hear
me
fine & radio works excellent at greater distances. Several listers here
have
suggested BNC attenuators to resolve this, but most I've found are
limited to
less than the output power of the 760 (about 5watts). See:
http://www.smelectronics.us/bnc,fattenuators.htm
A representative for JFW Industries claims to have a 50 ohm/5 watt unit
at a
reasonable price ($45) that he claims will do what I need.
Unfortunately, it
seems installing one of these "should" mitigate the formation problem,
but
longer-range comm will suffer. I asked about a "switchable" unit. The
rep said
it's possible, but much pricier (custom job).
Another A-lister suggested a microwave switch to bypass the attenuator
when
not needed.
Bob N. has offered to produce a kit to address the problem, but would
have to
order circuit boards and put together parts lists, and could only do so
if at
least 4 units were ordered. I haven't heard from anyone else having my
"problem", so that's likely a bust. (Bob- if you see this, is the unit
you allude
to similar to the "Active Attenuator for VHF-FM" suggested for fox hunts
shown
in the References section of the ARRL handbook? Mine is 78th edition
(2001)-
unit is page 30.64) If my understanding of this unit is right, it works
by
generating mixing products using an oscillator (requiring tuning
reception to
off-frequency? Not sure how this works for transmitting)
Microair tech support suggests the following: "The radio's operation is
normal. What you need is an antenna switch with a lower gain antenna for
these
situations. This should reduce the receiver sensitivity at the front
end. When
you aren't in formation or in close proximity to other aircraft, you
should be
able to switch back to your bent whip for greater sensitivity at the
lower
end."
Possible solution: I have a couple of Rubber Duckie antennas. I could
mount
one of these to a BNC receptacle on the larger side of a dedicated metal
box
(about 3"x3"x1") under my panel with the RD pointed toward the floor. A
short
RG400 patch cord from the 760 to the box, and the belly antenna RG400 to
another receptacle on the box. A SPDT switch also mounted to the box
would simply
connect either the RD or main antenna to the 760. (Fancier yet, make it
a
DPDT feeding a lamp on my annunciator: "AUX ANT ON") If the proximity
of the RD
to panel stuff turned out to be a problem, it could be re-located
somewhere
aft via a separate RG400, such as under the transverse seat back brace
(RV-6A
tip-up).
What say ye wise ones?
Thanks for any suggestions or critique- I have GOTTA fix this!
Mark Phillips - do not archive
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Wingtip Light Monitors |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Gary Edwards" <gary21sn@hotmail.com>
Mark,
Good info about your wingtip indicators. Thanks.
I have a similar system in my LNC2 Lancair that I installed in the mid '90's (first
flight 3/99).
The fiber optics, three from each wing tip, one each for navigation, strobes, and
tail lights, are routed thru each wing electrical conduit to a small indicator
face on the lower area of the instrument panel. The small face on the instrument
panel has small colored lenses for the nav. lights and clear lenses for
the strobes and tail lights. The optic fiber ends in the wing tips are actually
mounted inside each light fixture hence the reason for the colored lenses
on the panel.
I had a '70 Corvette and a '78 Seville that both utilized fiber optics. So I figured
it ought to work on the Lancair.
An early test in a friends hanger using his RV, with me under a blanket looking
straight into the end of a fiber when he turned on his strobes, was very convincing.
It worked better than I had anticipated. It was so bright, I couldn't
see for several minutes. I ended up removing the lenses in the panel display
and dulling the back side of them with sand paper to tone down the brightness.
So far, this simple wing tip light indicator system has been trouble free. I will
install the same system when I begin construction of a Lancair Legacy.
Gary Edwards
LNC2 N21SN
Medford, Oregon
Time: 08:23:37 PM PST US
From: Fiveonepw@aol.com<mailto:Fiveonepw@aol.com>
Subject: Wingtip Light Monitors
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com<mailto:Fiveonepw@aol.com>
Howdy A-list!
I know this is nothing electric, but that's part of what makes it so cool.
It worked out so well I just thought I'd share with the rest of y'all!
http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/index.php?qlog_entry&log_id7883<http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/index.php?qlog_entry&log_id7883>
Click on the fotos for a better view and >>Next Entry>> to the next two pages
for the "how-to". Lemme know if ya got any ?s.
Happy 2 double-oh 6 to all!
Mark Phillips
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Wiring Diagrams Design Software |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 07:32 PM 12/30/2005 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Burnaby" <jonlaury@impulse.net>
>
>I use TurboCAD v.7, for all kinds of designing and what-iffing. The
>software will import common AutoCAD formats (.dxf, .dwg) and converts its
>native format to these as well. I'm not an engineer, and I found
>TurboCAD's learning curve easy to negotiate as a total CAD novice. It came
>with a large library of electrical symbols or you can roll your own of
>anything you can dream up. You can "group" individual components so that
>they act like one entity (for moving, coloring, etc.) or you can "explode"
>an entity so that you can modify an individual component. I find it all
>easy to do. The program is a full blown 3-D CAD program and I've seen 3-D
>renderings that accomplished users have done and they are truly amazing,
>but I've never had a need to go there. The program is several versions
>down the road from v. 7 by now, but I will not even approach the
>capabilities of v.7 in my lifetime. I paid about $60-70 for mine, but v.
>10.2 is advertised on-line for $49.
>v 9.2 for $19.95.
For the early days of aeroelectric.com, I attempted to keep
all posted AutoCAD drawings in version 12 formats so that a
variety of freeware and shareware cad programs (also posted on
the website) would open, edit, save and print the drawings
I generated.
More recently, I had to forego the time it took to maintain
the growing list of drawings and I dropped that service.
I've had many requests for recommendations on software other
than the expensive AutoCAD for editing my drawings. I've just
ordered TurboCAD off Ebay (v10.2 for $26 post paid) and I'll
test it using the .dwg files off the website as source drawings.
If the tests prove successful, I'll post the results along
with a recommendation for its use with files you can download
from aeroelectric.com (including the complete symbol library
and wirebooks in progress). For those interested in generating
nice drawings for their diagrams, more than half the work is
already done.
Bob . . .
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Wiring Diagrams Design Software |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" <mprather@spro.net>
A while back (at university, actually), I used a software package from
Express PCB which did PCB layouts, including autorouting. I see they now
have packaged the PCB software with schematic layout. Has anyone else
looked at it. I haven't run the PCB software in 9 years, by from my
recollection, it was pretty slick. I may test drive this stuff (for
schematics) when I get home.
http://www.expresspcb.com/ExpressPCBHtm/Free_cad_software.htm
Regards,
Matt-
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
> <nuckollsr@cox.net>
>
> At 07:32 PM 12/30/2005 -0800, you wrote:
>
>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Burnaby"
>> <jonlaury@impulse.net>
>>
>>I use TurboCAD v.7, for all kinds of designing and what-iffing. The
>> software will import common AutoCAD formats (.dxf, .dwg) and converts
>> its native format to these as well. I'm not an engineer, and I found
>> TurboCAD's learning curve easy to negotiate as a total CAD novice. It
>> came with a large library of electrical symbols or you can roll your
>> own of anything you can dream up. You can "group" individual
>> components so that they act like one entity (for moving, coloring,
>> etc.) or you can "explode" an entity so that you can modify an
>> individual component. I find it all easy to do. The program is a full
>> blown 3-D CAD program and I've seen 3-D renderings that accomplished
>> users have done and they are truly amazing, but I've never had a need
>> to go there. The program is several versions down the road from v. 7
>> by now, but I will not even approach the capabilities of v.7 in my
>> lifetime. I paid about $60-70 for mine, but v. 10.2 is advertised
>> on-line for $49.
>>v 9.2 for $19.95.
>
> For the early days of aeroelectric.com, I attempted to keep
> all posted AutoCAD drawings in version 12 formats so that a
> variety of freeware and shareware cad programs (also posted on
> the website) would open, edit, save and print the drawings
> I generated.
>
> More recently, I had to forego the time it took to maintain
> the growing list of drawings and I dropped that service.
>
> I've had many requests for recommendations on software other
> than the expensive AutoCAD for editing my drawings. I've just
> ordered TurboCAD off Ebay (v10.2 for $26 post paid) and I'll
> test it using the .dwg files off the website as source drawings.
>
> If the tests prove successful, I'll post the results along
> with a recommendation for its use with files you can download
> from aeroelectric.com (including the complete symbol library
> and wirebooks in progress). For those interested in generating
> nice drawings for their diagrams, more than half the work is
> already done.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Close Proximity Air2Air Comm problem (HELP!) |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com
Your annunciator light suggestion triggered an idea: long ago, when dinosaurs,
er, when vacuum tube finals ruled the airwaves, we'd dip and load our tube finals
into 100w light bulbs used as dummy loads. It was, however, possible to
communicate over such an "antenna" at greatly reduced efficiency. And I believe
the much lower radiated power output (vs a rubber duck) will reduce the chances
that you'll zap sensitive avionics with too much field strength in the cockpit.
Maybe try a light bulb in the 50-ohm and 5-10 watt dissipation range as
the actual "antenna" for close-in work?
If my math is correct, a 12-volt 5 watt bulb will come in close to 25 ohms (28.8)
so you could run two in series to make an approximate 50 ohm load that converts
the vast majority of your RF to heat; just what you need. For a 120 v bulb,
you're going to need closer to 288 watts rating to see 50 ohms resistance.
Let us know how it works ;-)
And someone else please check my math!
-Stormy
-----Original Message-----
From: Fiveonepw@aol.com
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Close Proximity Air2Air Comm problem (HELP!)
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
Howdy all-
After another frustrating couple of occasions trying to communicate with
fellow formators I MUST come up with some solution to this problem. Recap-
whenever closer than 300' (MOL) to other planes, transmissions from other planes
are
typically very garbled & unreadable on my Microair 760. They can hear me
fine & radio works excellent at greater distances. Several listers here have
suggested BNC attenuators to resolve this, but most I've found are limited to
less than the output power of the 760 (about 5watts). See:
http://www.smelectronics.us/bnc,fattenuators.htm
A representative for JFW Industries claims to have a 50 ohm/5 watt unit at a
reasonable price ($45) that he claims will do what I need. Unfortunately, it
seems installing one of these "should" mitigate the formation problem, but
longer-range comm will suffer. I asked about a "switchable" unit. The rep said
it's possible, but much pricier (custom job).
Another A-lister suggested a microwave switch to bypass the attenuator when
not needed.
Bob N. has offered to produce a kit to address the problem, but would have to
order circuit boards and put together parts lists, and could only do so if at
least 4 units were ordered. I haven't heard from anyone else having my
"problem", so that's likely a bust. (Bob- if you see this, is the unit you
allude
to similar to the "Active Attenuator for VHF-FM" suggested for fox hunts shown
in the References section of the ARRL handbook? Mine is 78th edition (2001)-
unit is page 30.64) If my understanding of this unit is right, it works by
generating mixing products using an oscillator (requiring tuning reception to
off-frequency? Not sure how this works for transmitting)
Microair tech support suggests the following: "The radio's operation is
normal. What you need is an antenna switch with a lower gain antenna for these
situations. This should reduce the receiver sensitivity at the front end. When
you aren't in formation or in close proximity to other aircraft, you should be
able to switch back to your bent whip for greater sensitivity at the lower
end."
Possible solution: I have a couple of Rubber Duckie antennas. I could mount
one of these to a BNC receptacle on the larger side of a dedicated metal box
(about 3"x3"x1") under my panel with the RD pointed toward the floor. A short
RG400 patch cord from the 760 to the box, and the belly antenna RG400 to
another receptacle on the box. A SPDT switch also mounted to the box would
simply
connect either the RD or main antenna to the 760. (Fancier yet, make it a
DPDT feeding a lamp on my annunciator: "AUX ANT ON") If the proximity of the RD
to panel stuff turned out to be a problem, it could be re-located somewhere
aft via a separate RG400, such as under the transverse seat back brace (RV-6A
tip-up).
What say ye wise ones?
Thanks for any suggestions or critique- I have GOTTA fix this!
Mark Phillips - do not archive
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Wiring Diagrams Design Software |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 10:31 AM 1/3/2006 -0700, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" <mprather@spro.net>
>
>A while back (at university, actually), I used a software package from
>Express PCB which did PCB layouts, including autorouting. I see they now
>have packaged the PCB software with schematic layout. Has anyone else
>looked at it. I haven't run the PCB software in 9 years, by from my
>recollection, it was pretty slick. I may test drive this stuff (for
>schematics) when I get home.
>
>http://www.expresspcb.com/ExpressPCBHtm/Free_cad_software.htm
Let me know what you think. I have this software. I use
ExpressPCB for 90% of our production ECB needs. the schematic
module is tailored to interface with their ECB layout
module as a schematic capture feature. I wasn't impressed with
their symbol library or final appearance of the drawings . . .
but then it was never intended as a publishing or illustration
tool. Accordingly, the supplied symbols are for board-level
components and one would have to generate a whole new library
for system level components.
Bob . . .
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Wiring Diagrams Design Software |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Steve Allison <stevea@svpal.org>
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> I've had many requests for recommendations on software other
> than the expensive AutoCAD for editing my drawings. I've just
> ordered TurboCAD off Ebay (v10.2 for $26 post paid) and I'll
> test it using the .dwg files off the website as source drawings.
>
> If the tests prove successful, I'll post the results along
> with a recommendation for its use with files you can download
> from aeroelectric.com (including the complete symbol library
> and wirebooks in progress). For those interested in generating
> nice drawings for their diagrams, more than half the work is
> already done.
>
> Bob . . .
Bob,
I have successfully used TurboCAD (versions 8 and 10) to import and use
.dwg files from your website. I've also picked up and used .dwg files
from other sites too, again without any problems. I did change some
text styles, line widths and shading/cross hatching to suite my own
drawing style, but the basic geometry import was good. TurboCAD can
read and write several other formats other than its own native .tcw
files. The ones of most interest to CAD users are probably .dwg
(AutoCAD) and .dxf (Drawing eXchange Format).
TurboCAD is published by IMSI: http://www.imsisoft.com/
I am using it for the panel mechanical layout and electrical system
design. No financial interest in the company, just a satisfied user.
Steve
RV-6A builder
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Wiring Diagrams Design Software |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: rv-9a-online <rv-9a-online@telus.net>
Matt: here's a complete schematic in ExpressSCH for a typical
aircraft, plus a symbol library that has many of B&C's switches etc.
http://vx-aviation.com/page_3.html
Vern Little
do not archive
Matt Prather wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" <mprather@spro.net>
>
>A while back (at university, actually), I used a software package from
>Express PCB which did PCB layouts, including autorouting. I see they now
>have packaged the PCB software with schematic layout. Has anyone else
>looked at it. I haven't run the PCB software in 9 years, by from my
>recollection, it was pretty slick. I may test drive this stuff (for
>schematics) when I get home.
>
>http://www.expresspcb.com/ExpressPCBHtm/Free_cad_software.htm
>
>
>Regards,
>
>Matt-
>
>
>
>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
>><nuckollsr@cox.net>
>>
>>At 07:32 PM 12/30/2005 -0800, you wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Burnaby"
>>><jonlaury@impulse.net>
>>>
>>>I use TurboCAD v.7, for all kinds of designing and what-iffing. The
>>>software will import common AutoCAD formats (.dxf, .dwg) and converts
>>>its native format to these as well. I'm not an engineer, and I found
>>>TurboCAD's learning curve easy to negotiate as a total CAD novice. It
>>>came with a large library of electrical symbols or you can roll your
>>>own of anything you can dream up. You can "group" individual
>>>components so that they act like one entity (for moving, coloring,
>>>etc.) or you can "explode" an entity so that you can modify an
>>>individual component. I find it all easy to do. The program is a full
>>>blown 3-D CAD program and I've seen 3-D renderings that accomplished
>>>users have done and they are truly amazing, but I've never had a need
>>>to go there. The program is several versions down the road from v. 7
>>>by now, but I will not even approach the capabilities of v.7 in my
>>>lifetime. I paid about $60-70 for mine, but v. 10.2 is advertised
>>>on-line for $49.
>>>v 9.2 for $19.95.
>>>
>>>
>> For the early days of aeroelectric.com, I attempted to keep
>> all posted AutoCAD drawings in version 12 formats so that a
>> variety of freeware and shareware cad programs (also posted on
>> the website) would open, edit, save and print the drawings
>> I generated.
>>
>> More recently, I had to forego the time it took to maintain
>> the growing list of drawings and I dropped that service.
>>
>> I've had many requests for recommendations on software other
>> than the expensive AutoCAD for editing my drawings. I've just
>> ordered TurboCAD off Ebay (v10.2 for $26 post paid) and I'll
>> test it using the .dwg files off the website as source drawings.
>>
>> If the tests prove successful, I'll post the results along
>> with a recommendation for its use with files you can download
>> from aeroelectric.com (including the complete symbol library
>> and wirebooks in progress). For those interested in generating
>> nice drawings for their diagrams, more than half the work is
>> already done.
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Copy of my letter to Niagara Airparts. |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Gordon or Marge Comfort" <gcomfo@tc3net.com>
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III Airparts.
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Copy of my letter to Niagara Airparts.
>Hey, Bob: Pay George no mind. He clearly doesn't know how to read.
>His thinking is equally muddled. But then, he is an Engineer. I
>suspect he is bipolar. In a manic phase.
>
>Gordon Comfort
>N363GC
Gently, gently my friend.
By the way, how many hours do you have on that airplane?
By my reckoning you should have worn out the first engine
by now. You guys were going to come visit us. I just chased
family out of the guest room on their Christmas visit, you
and Marge are encouraged to use it at any time. Dee finished
her PhD last spring and has become civilized We'd love to
see you again.
Bob . . .
Hi, Bob: Perhaps I should not have vented on the above matter, but what can
I say? I don't often do so and will likely not soon again.
I only have 800 hours on the -4. Don't seem to do much local flying lately
and haven't had time for many trips. Will be flying to Tucson in March and
the route takes us right past Wichita. Maybe we could stop on one end of
the trip or the other. Otherwise we could just fly out for a visit. Thank
you for the invite. We look forward to it. Do not archive.
Gordon
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Wiring Diagrams Design Software |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
>
>Bob,
>
>I have successfully used TurboCAD (versions 8 and 10) to import and use
>.dwg files from your website. I've also picked up and used .dwg files
>from other sites too, again without any problems. I did change some
>text styles, line widths and shading/cross hatching to suite my own
>drawing style, but the basic geometry import was good. TurboCAD can
>read and write several other formats other than its own native .tcw
>files. The ones of most interest to CAD users are probably .dwg
>(AutoCAD) and .dxf (Drawing eXchange Format).
>
>TurboCAD is published by IMSI: http://www.imsisoft.com/
>
>I am using it for the panel mechanical layout and electrical system
>design. No financial interest in the company, just a satisfied user.
Very good! Thank you for that input. There you go folks. $22 for a
"real" CAD program and megabytes of plug-n-nearly-play work product.
The guy advertising V10 on Ebay seems to have a lot of them. Goto
http://ebay.com and search on 7208329279
Bob . . .
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Close Proximity Air2Air Comm problem (HELP!) |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: G McNutt <gmcnutt@shaw.ca>
Hi Mark
FWIW, could you hook up and try using a hand-held radio to see how it
would work during formation. If it works OK you might consider a #2
hand-held comm instead of spending $ on the Microair.
George in Langley BC
Fiveonepw@aol.com wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
>
>Howdy all-
>
>After another frustrating couple of occasions trying to communicate with
>fellow formators I MUST come up with some solution to this problem. Recap-
>whenever closer than 300' (MOL) to other planes, transmissions from other planes
are
>typically very garbled & unreadable on my Microair 760.
>
>
snip------------
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Close Proximity Air2Air Comm problem |
(HELP!)
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" <BigD@DaveMorris.com>
(HELP!)
Your idea of having a switchable rubber duckie antenna is probably the best
way to go. Bury the rubber duck somewhere it gets poor reception. An
alternative might be a 50 ohm resistor in whatever power rating your
transmitter is rated, but then you won't get much reception at all, just
your transmitter power will be reduced for the "other" guys'
benefit. Light bulbs used to be popular, but they aren't very reliable and
their resistance might change with heating or cooling.
I would suggest a good quality VHF switch, though, and not just some ole
toggle switch. If you go the cheap route, you mess up the impedance of the
feedlines and you may find yourself not having good communications with the
tower 40 miles out next time you need it.
Take a look at the stuff MFJ Enterprises has. For instance:
http://www.mfjenterprises.com/products.php?prodid=MFJ-1702C
Maybe you could use an RF sensing switch that changes your antenna
automatically between receive and transmit. This one comes to mind,
although it is for switching 2 different radios to the same antenna, so I
don't know if it would work the other way around:
http://www.mfjenterprises.com/products.php?prodid=MFJ-1708
You could try calling MFJ Enterprises, ask to speak to their chief
engineer, and ask them if they have something that would work. Describe
your scenario as a VHF application with radios very close to each other,
but don't mention the AIRxxxxx word.
Regards,
Dave Morris
At 09:24 AM 1/3/2006, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
>
>Howdy all-
>
>After another frustrating couple of occasions trying to communicate with
>fellow formators I MUST come up with some solution to this problem. Recap-
>whenever closer than 300' (MOL) to other planes, transmissions from other
>planes are
>typically very garbled & unreadable on my Microair 760. They can hear me
>fine & radio works excellent at greater distances. Several listers here have
>suggested BNC attenuators to resolve this, but most I've found are limited to
>less than the output power of the 760 (about 5watts). See:
>
> http://www.smelectronics.us/bnc,fattenuators.htm
>
>A representative for JFW Industries claims to have a 50 ohm/5 watt unit at a
>reasonable price ($45) that he claims will do what I need. Unfortunately, it
>seems installing one of these "should" mitigate the formation problem, but
>longer-range comm will suffer. I asked about a "switchable" unit. The
>rep said
>it's possible, but much pricier (custom job).
>
>Another A-lister suggested a microwave switch to bypass the attenuator when
>not needed.
>
>Bob N. has offered to produce a kit to address the problem, but would have to
>order circuit boards and put together parts lists, and could only do so if at
>least 4 units were ordered. I haven't heard from anyone else having my
>"problem", so that's likely a bust. (Bob- if you see this, is the unit
>you allude
>to similar to the "Active Attenuator for VHF-FM" suggested for fox hunts
>shown
>in the References section of the ARRL handbook? Mine is 78th edition (2001)-
>unit is page 30.64) If my understanding of this unit is right, it works by
>generating mixing products using an oscillator (requiring tuning reception to
>off-frequency? Not sure how this works for transmitting)
>
>Microair tech support suggests the following: "The radio's operation is
>normal. What you need is an antenna switch with a lower gain antenna for
>these
>situations. This should reduce the receiver sensitivity at the front end.
>When
>you aren't in formation or in close proximity to other aircraft, you
>should be
>able to switch back to your bent whip for greater sensitivity at the lower
>end."
>
>Possible solution: I have a couple of Rubber Duckie antennas. I could mount
>one of these to a BNC receptacle on the larger side of a dedicated metal box
>(about 3"x3"x1") under my panel with the RD pointed toward the floor. A
>short
>RG400 patch cord from the 760 to the box, and the belly antenna RG400 to
>another receptacle on the box. A SPDT switch also mounted to the box
>would simply
>connect either the RD or main antenna to the 760. (Fancier yet, make it a
>DPDT feeding a lamp on my annunciator: "AUX ANT ON") If the proximity of
>the RD
>to panel stuff turned out to be a problem, it could be re-located somewhere
>aft via a separate RG400, such as under the transverse seat back brace (RV-6A
>tip-up).
>
>What say ye wise ones?
>
>Thanks for any suggestions or critique- I have GOTTA fix this!
>
>Mark Phillips - do not archive
>
>
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Wiring Diagrams Design Software |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Steve Thomas <lists@stevet.net>
Has anyone tried or used DesignWorks Lite? It is a circuit
documentation program. The link is:
http://www.capilano.com/html/dwml.html
They have a version for both Mac and Windows and is free for 30 days,
then $40 to register. I'd like to hear comments from anyone who
might have used it.
On Jan 3, 2006, at 8:51 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> I've had many requests for recommendations on software other
> than the expensive AutoCAD for editing my drawings. I've just
> ordered TurboCAD off Ebay (v10.2 for $26 post paid) and I'll
> test it using the .dwg files off the website as source drawings.
Steve Thomas
SteveT.Net
steve@stevet.net
805-569-0336 Office
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Wiring Diagrams Design Software |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
Bob- are you also storing builders' wirebooks as references of completed
designs? My entire system is on a series of R-14 generated dwgs and I'd be happy
to "donate", space providing... I know of quite a few others (Kevin Horton
for example) who did excellent work and offered theirs for perusal by other
builders on their own websites.
Mark Phillips - do not archive
Message 27
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| Subject: | Close Proximity Air2Air Comm problem (HELP!) |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alan K. Adamson" <aadamson@highrf.com>
If you are *that* close, just get a "dummy load" from any of the ham stores
(www.hamradio.com). Use it with the switch as Dave suggests. If you go to
a "hamfest" around your area, you can probably pick one up with a BNC
connector on it and some small fins to heat sink the RF wattage.
Put it somewhere, even on a simply bulkhead so that it can dissipate the
heat, set the switch and you are good to go.
Just make sure you don't set the switch when you are transmitting, and also
make sure it's on a real antenna when you are talking to ATC.
A dummy load should be more than enough for close proximity work. Probably
a radius of 500' or so. May even be better as you'll be "line of site" to
most everyone.
These are AM Transmitters, and if the filtering in them isn't very good,
either the RX or the TX can cause this problem.
BTW, A dummy load is better than a light bulb, the filament wont burn out
and at least will protect the finals in your radio.
Alan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave
Morris "BigD" (HELP!)
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Close Proximity Air2Air Comm problem (HELP!)
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Morris \"BigD\""
--> <BigD@DaveMorris.com> (HELP!)
Your idea of having a switchable rubber duckie antenna is probably the best
way to go. Bury the rubber duck somewhere it gets poor reception. An
alternative might be a 50 ohm resistor in whatever power rating your
transmitter is rated, but then you won't get much reception at all, just
your transmitter power will be reduced for the "other" guys'
benefit. Light bulbs used to be popular, but they aren't very reliable and
their resistance might change with heating or cooling.
I would suggest a good quality VHF switch, though, and not just some ole
toggle switch. If you go the cheap route, you mess up the impedance of the
feedlines and you may find yourself not having good communications with the
tower 40 miles out next time you need it.
Take a look at the stuff MFJ Enterprises has. For instance:
http://www.mfjenterprises.com/products.php?prodid=MFJ-1702C
Maybe you could use an RF sensing switch that changes your antenna
automatically between receive and transmit. This one comes to mind,
although it is for switching 2 different radios to the same antenna, so I
don't know if it would work the other way around:
http://www.mfjenterprises.com/products.php?prodid=MFJ-1708
You could try calling MFJ Enterprises, ask to speak to their chief engineer,
and ask them if they have something that would work. Describe your scenario
as a VHF application with radios very close to each other, but don't mention
the AIRxxxxx word.
Regards,
Dave Morris
At 09:24 AM 1/3/2006, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
>
>Howdy all-
>
>After another frustrating couple of occasions trying to communicate
>with fellow formators I MUST come up with some solution to this
>problem. Recap- whenever closer than 300' (MOL) to other planes,
>transmissions from other planes are typically very garbled & unreadable
>on my Microair 760. They can hear me fine & radio works excellent at
>greater distances. Several listers here have suggested BNC attenuators
>to resolve this, but most I've found are limited to less than the
>output power of the 760 (about 5watts). See:
>
> http://www.smelectronics.us/bnc,fattenuators.htm
>
>A representative for JFW Industries claims to have a 50 ohm/5 watt unit
>at a reasonable price ($45) that he claims will do what I need.
>Unfortunately, it seems installing one of these "should" mitigate the
>formation problem, but longer-range comm will suffer. I asked about a
>"switchable" unit. The rep said it's possible, but much pricier
>(custom job).
>
>Another A-lister suggested a microwave switch to bypass the attenuator
>when not needed.
>
>Bob N. has offered to produce a kit to address the problem, but would
>have to order circuit boards and put together parts lists, and could
>only do so if at least 4 units were ordered. I haven't heard from
>anyone else having my "problem", so that's likely a bust. (Bob- if you
>see this, is the unit you allude to similar to the "Active Attenuator
>for VHF-FM" suggested for fox hunts shown in the References section of
>the ARRL handbook? Mine is 78th edition (2001)- unit is page 30.64)
>If my understanding of this unit is right, it works by generating
>mixing products using an oscillator (requiring tuning reception to
>off-frequency? Not sure how this works for transmitting)
>
>Microair tech support suggests the following: "The radio's operation
>is normal. What you need is an antenna switch with a lower gain antenna
>for these situations. This should reduce the receiver sensitivity at
>the front end.
>When
>you aren't in formation or in close proximity to other aircraft, you
>should be able to switch back to your bent whip for greater sensitivity
>at the lower end."
>
>Possible solution: I have a couple of Rubber Duckie antennas. I could
>mount one of these to a BNC receptacle on the larger side of a
>dedicated metal box (about 3"x3"x1") under my panel with the RD pointed
>toward the floor. A short RG400 patch cord from the 760 to the box,
>and the belly antenna RG400 to another receptacle on the box. A SPDT
>switch also mounted to the box would simply connect either the RD or
>main antenna to the 760. (Fancier yet, make it a DPDT feeding a lamp
>on my annunciator: "AUX ANT ON") If the proximity of the RD to panel
>stuff turned out to be a problem, it could be re-located somewhere aft
>via a separate RG400, such as under the transverse seat back brace
>(RV-6A tip-up).
>
>What say ye wise ones?
>
>Thanks for any suggestions or critique- I have GOTTA fix this!
>
>Mark Phillips - do not archive
>
>
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Wiring Diagrams Design Software |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" <BigD@DaveMorris.com>
After installing and trying many different ones and throwing them all out,
I finally found DesignWorks Lite from Capilano Computing for $39.95. I
bought it a few years ago and have never looked back. It works intuitively
the way a CAD program should. You can design your own components if the
switch or relay or gadget you need doesn't exist in one of their libraries.
Here's a schematic I did with it:
http://www.davemorris.com/Photos/Dragonfly%20Electrical/N75UP-Schematic-June2005.pdf
Here's their web site: http://www.capilano.com/
I highly recommend it for ease of use in drawing schematics. They have a
free trial. I think it's better than any of the other options I've heard
people mention so far.
Dave Morris
At 10:04 PM 12/29/2005, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jerry Grimmonpre" <jerry@mc.net>
>
>Hi all ...
>How many OBAM electricians have used the PC based software to draw their
>wiring diagrams?
>I'm interested in finding out what you have found and reccomend, don't
>recomend, like alot or any comments about they are easy to use or not easy.
>Or is all the PC based stuff a waste of time?
>I see some on ebay, new ones, outdated programs, cheap and not one bidder
>... why is that?
>Any help appreciated ... thanks alot,
>Jerry Grimmonpre'
>
>
Message 29
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|
| Subject: | Instrument Panel Labels |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark R Steitle" <mark.steitle@austin.utexas.edu>
Ken,
Do you have the p/n for the white on clear tape? I couldn't find it on
the site given below. My panel is dark grey and white on clear would
work great.
Mark
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
Don't forget my favourite "white on clear tape"
Looks good on my gray panel although the idea of doing more complex
printer graphics in interesting.
Ken
Craig Payne wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Craig Payne"
<craig@craigandjean.com>
>
>As a side note the labeling products like the Brother P-touch line
offer
>white-on-black tapes:
>
>http://www.brothermall.com/accessory_detail.asp?mscssid=8C857699C5A5478
88C58
>CEF27C70BD68&sku=TZ335&dept_id=167
>
>Tapes of all colors are available in widths up to 3/4". The labelers
can
>"stack" lines across the width of the tape.
>
>Other color combinations offered are black-on-clear, black-on-white,
>red-on-white, gold-on-black and black-on-yellow.
>
>-- Craig
>
>
Message 30
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| Subject: | Instrument Panel Labels |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
TZ135 is 1/2" white-on-clear, TZ145 is 3/4", I don't see a 1".
You can order from the Brother site below but I don't think their prices are
the best. If you are in a hurry Staples and OfficeMax stock some.
http://www.advizia.com/brother/Advisor.asp?User=tapesacc&Advisor=Sub&CtgID=&
Rnd=227
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark R
Steitle
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Instrument Panel Labels
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark R Steitle"
--> <mark.steitle@austin.utexas.edu>
Ken,
Do you have the p/n for the white on clear tape? I couldn't find it on the
site given below. My panel is dark grey and white on clear would work
great.
Mark
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
Don't forget my favourite "white on clear tape"
Looks good on my gray panel although the idea of doing more complex printer
graphics in interesting.
Ken
Craig Payne wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Craig Payne"
<craig@craigandjean.com>
>
>As a side note the labeling products like the Brother P-touch line
offer
>white-on-black tapes:
>
>http://www.brothermall.com/accessory_detail.asp?mscssid=8C857699C5A5478
88C58
>CEF27C70BD68&sku=TZ335&dept_id=167
>
>Tapes of all colors are available in widths up to 3/4". The labelers
can
>"stack" lines across the width of the tape.
>
>Other color combinations offered are black-on-clear, black-on-white,
>red-on-white, gold-on-black and black-on-yellow.
>
>-- Craig
>
>
Message 31
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| Subject: | Wiring Diagrams Design Software |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Beadle" <Dan.Beadle@hq.InclineSoftworks.com>
I don't see where SL12 goes from the crowbar. Is it supposed to be
SL-5? There must be a breaker somewhere that kills the dynamo.
SL-9 also is a dangling label. I assume there is a switch to ground to
serve as the battery master. Sounds like you open that switch to kill
the right main bus, then close the E-Bus feed. Seems like a DPDT might
work better - up for normal, down for e-bus, center for OFF. (simpler
pilot workload).
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave
Morris "BigD"
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wiring Diagrams Design Software
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Morris \"BigD\""
<BigD@DaveMorris.com>
After installing and trying many different ones and throwing them all
out,
I finally found DesignWorks Lite from Capilano Computing for $39.95. I
bought it a few years ago and have never looked back. It works
intuitively
the way a CAD program should. You can design your own components if the
switch or relay or gadget you need doesn't exist in one of their
libraries.
Here's a schematic I did with it:
http://www.davemorris.com/Photos/Dragonfly%20Electrical/N75UP-Schematic-
June2005.pdf
Here's their web site: http://www.capilano.com/
I highly recommend it for ease of use in drawing schematics. They have
a
free trial. I think it's better than any of the other options I've
heard
people mention so far.
Dave Morris
At 10:04 PM 12/29/2005, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jerry Grimmonpre"
<jerry@mc.net>
>
>Hi all ...
>How many OBAM electricians have used the PC based software to draw
their
>wiring diagrams?
>I'm interested in finding out what you have found and reccomend, don't
>recomend, like alot or any comments about they are easy to use or not
easy.
>Or is all the PC based stuff a waste of time?
>I see some on ebay, new ones, outdated programs, cheap and not one
bidder
>... why is that?
>Any help appreciated ... thanks alot,
>Jerry Grimmonpre'
>
>
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Wiring Diagrams Design Software |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
Sweet!
$16. for v10 plus $7. to mail to Canada which means no additional tax or
brokerage and he takes VISA!
And it looks an upgrade to v10.2 is available off the IMSI site.
The A9cad freeware also views the Z figures just fine although I never
figured out how to "connect" wires to terminals.
I really like the Excel method but symbol building is slow and a bit
flakey on my version .
thanks Bob and Steve
Ken
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
>
>
>
>
>>Bob,
>>
>>I have successfully used TurboCAD (versions 8 and 10) to import and use
>>.dwg files from your website. I've also picked up and used .dwg files
>>
>>
>>from other sites too, again without any problems. I did change some
>
>
>>text styles, line widths and shading/cross hatching to suite my own
>>drawing style, but the basic geometry import was good. TurboCAD can
>>read and write several other formats other than its own native .tcw
>>files. The ones of most interest to CAD users are probably .dwg
>>(AutoCAD) and .dxf (Drawing eXchange Format).
>>
>>TurboCAD is published by IMSI: http://www.imsisoft.com/
>>
>>I am using it for the panel mechanical layout and electrical system
>>design. No financial interest in the company, just a satisfied user.
>>
>>
>
> Very good! Thank you for that input. There you go folks. $22 for a
> "real" CAD program and megabytes of plug-n-nearly-play work product.
>
> The guy advertising V10 on Ebay seems to have a lot of them. Goto
> http://ebay.com and search on 7208329279
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Wiring Diagrams Design Software |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "William Slaughter" <willslau@alumni.rice.edu>
I've had very good luck with QuickCad, which has now been acquired by
AutoCad. It was about $100 at CompUSA, probably available cheaper
online. I've imported and manipulated the dwg files without problems.
William Slaughter
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Wiring Diagrams Design Software
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
--> <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 07:32 PM 12/30/2005 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Burnaby"
>--> <jonlaury@impulse.net>
>
>I use TurboCAD v.7, for all kinds of designing and what-iffing. The
>software will import common AutoCAD formats (.dxf, .dwg) and converts
its
>native format to these as well. I'm not an engineer, and I found
>TurboCAD's learning curve easy to negotiate as a total CAD novice. It
came
>with a large library of electrical symbols or you can roll your own of
>anything you can dream up. You can "group" individual components so
that
>they act like one entity (for moving, coloring, etc.) or you can
"explode"
>an entity so that you can modify an individual component. I find it all
>easy to do. The program is a full blown 3-D CAD program and I've seen
3-D
>renderings that accomplished users have done and they are truly
amazing,
>but I've never had a need to go there. The program is several versions
>down the road from v. 7 by now, but I will not even approach the
>capabilities of v.7 in my lifetime. I paid about $60-70 for mine, but
v.
>10.2 is advertised on-line for $49.
>v 9.2 for $19.95.
For the early days of aeroelectric.com, I attempted to keep
all posted AutoCAD drawings in version 12 formats so that a
variety of freeware and shareware cad programs (also posted on
the website) would open, edit, save and print the drawings
I generated.
More recently, I had to forego the time it took to maintain
the growing list of drawings and I dropped that service.
I've had many requests for recommendations on software other
than the expensive AutoCAD for editing my drawings. I've just
ordered TurboCAD off Ebay (v10.2 for $26 post paid) and I'll
test it using the .dwg files off the website as source drawings.
If the tests prove successful, I'll post the results along
with a recommendation for its use with files you can download
from aeroelectric.com (including the complete symbol library
and wirebooks in progress). For those interested in generating
nice drawings for their diagrams, more than half the work is
already done.
Bob . . .
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Better List Conduct...Practical |
Matters....
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss <chaztuna@adelphia.net> Matters....
I'm with Eric on this subject. I've learned an enormous amount from Bob. I
have also learned from George. I note that Bob hasn't blown his top at
George. Why? I'm sure it's because he wants George to contribute to the
discussion. (Which he has done in the past). George occasionally is "less
than polite", but he does add to the knowledge on this list.
I try to remind myself that in the past, I've been guilty of boarish
behavior on assorted lists myself. (Usually involved late night drinking)
I've got feet of clay and simply want to learn. Let's keep the discussions
on track. My 2 cents.
FYI GMC in gmcjetpilot relates to George's initials, not his place of
employment. I've contacted George off list a number of times. He was happy
to let me know who he was. His "on list" reticence relates to getting
spammed, which is understandable in my mind.
Charlie Kuss
do not archive
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
>
>Guys....
>
>All this stuff looks like a yellow sh*t storm to me. I actually take some
>iconoclastic guilty pleasure from seeing George lambaste Bob, and Bob recite
>his experience and around and around it goes.
>
>The college I went to tossed me out with a degree when they discovered that
>my barely post-pubescent head was a full as they could stuff it. A degree,
>like a pilot's certificate is only a license to learn more stuff. Pity the
>graduate or the pilot who stops learning...and there are many.
>
>I actually (at times) do measure people by their degrees, but I make
>distinctions between Eastern US versus Western US versus European and every
>kind and type of farm college, military, technical school and people who
>have tattoos. But it's a waste of time.
>
>My New Year's Wishes:
>
>I would like to see personalities kept out of the discussion. I would like
>to see Bob N. not waste his time defending himself (his good works are
>plentifully abundant and apparent). I would like to see AeroElectric Listers
>eschew invective, and refrain from personal attacks OR personal adoration
>(except for obituaries perhaps). If we have to see Bob's resume one more
>time perhaps we should post OUR resumes. Then what a bore we all will be.
>
>Personalities should never be the issue here. We are all good and bad some
>times.
>
>Regards,
>Eric M. Jones
>www.PerihelionDesign.com
>113 Brentwood Drive
>Southbridge MA 01550-2705
>(508) 764-2072
>
>"The problem with the world is that only the intelligent people want to be
>smarter, and only the good people want to improve."
> - Eolake Stobblehouse
>
>
Message 35
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| Subject: | Better List Conduct...Practical Matters.... |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Peter Laurence" <PLaurence@the-beach.net>
Charlie,
I hear and understand what you are saying. However, George was WAY out of
line on his diatribe, period.
See you Saturday.
Peter
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie
Kuss Matters....
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Better List Conduct...Practical Matters....
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss
<chaztuna@adelphia.net> Matters....
I'm with Eric on this subject. I've learned an enormous amount from Bob. I
have also learned from George. I note that Bob hasn't blown his top at
George. Why? I'm sure it's because he wants George to contribute to the
discussion. (Which he has done in the past). George occasionally is "less
than polite", but he does add to the knowledge on this list.
I try to remind myself that in the past, I've been guilty of boarish
behavior on assorted lists myself. (Usually involved late night drinking)
I've got feet of clay and simply want to learn. Let's keep the discussions
on track. My 2 cents.
FYI GMC in gmcjetpilot relates to George's initials, not his place of
employment. I've contacted George off list a number of times. He was happy
to let me know who he was. His "on list" reticence relates to getting
spammed, which is understandable in my mind.
Charlie Kuss
do not archive
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones"
<emjones@charter.net>
>
>Guys....
>
>All this stuff looks like a yellow sh*t storm to me. I actually take some
>iconoclastic guilty pleasure from seeing George lambaste Bob, and Bob
recite
>his experience and around and around it goes.
>
>The college I went to tossed me out with a degree when they discovered that
>my barely post-pubescent head was a full as they could stuff it. A degree,
>like a pilot's certificate is only a license to learn more stuff. Pity the
>graduate or the pilot who stops learning...and there are many.
>
>I actually (at times) do measure people by their degrees, but I make
>distinctions between Eastern US versus Western US versus European and every
>kind and type of farm college, military, technical school and people who
>have tattoos. But it's a waste of time.
>
>My New Year's Wishes:
>
>I would like to see personalities kept out of the discussion. I would like
>to see Bob N. not waste his time defending himself (his good works are
>plentifully abundant and apparent). I would like to see AeroElectric
Listers
>eschew invective, and refrain from personal attacks OR personal adoration
>(except for obituaries perhaps). If we have to see Bob's resume one more
>time perhaps we should post OUR resumes. Then what a bore we all will be.
>
>Personalities should never be the issue here. We are all good and bad some
>times.
>
>Regards,
>Eric M. Jones
>www.PerihelionDesign.com
>113 Brentwood Drive
>Southbridge MA 01550-2705
>(508) 764-2072
>
>"The problem with the world is that only the intelligent people want to be
>smarter, and only the good people want to improve."
> - Eolake Stobblehouse
>
>
Message 36
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| Subject: | Heat sink for Schottky diode |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss <chaztuna@adelphia.net>
Listers,
Someone asked about a source for a heat sink for the Schottky diodes sold
by Eric Jones of Perihelion Design. RV builder Scott Chastain turned me on
to a nice heat sink made specifically for this diode. Scott told me he got
his from Radio Shack. I got mine from Mouser Electronics. It's part number
567-680-125A This heat sink is made by Wakefield Thermal Solutions.
You can find it here
http://www.mouser.com/index.cfm?&handler=data.listcategory&D=*567680125A*&terms=567-680-125A&Ntt=*567680125A*&Dk=1&Ns=SField&N=0&crc=true
Charlie Kuss
Message 37
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "bob noffs" <icubob@newnorth.net>
hi bob,
want to thank you for the input regarding turn coor. noise showing up in my intercom.
i already own the turn coor. so that is what i will work with. you are
right, i have a great layout for my panel and now am encouraged to go with
it as is and if i am unlucky i will deal with a fix then.
bob
noffs
Message 38
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| Subject: | Heat sink for Schottky diode |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
Slightly backwards. The "TO-3" transistor case has existed for decades. The
diode sold by Eric was designed to use the same footprint as a TO-3 case.
*Any* heat sink designed for a TO-3 case will (by design) work with the
diode. Unfortunately the only heat sinks I can find on Radio Shack's web
site are for the TO-220 case which is quite different from the TO-3 case.
Digikey certainly has heat sinks for the TO-3 footprint. Go to the link
below to see 51 matches for "heat sink to-3":
http://www.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Criteria?Ref=346699&Site=U
S&Cat=32506655
The other question is if you desire to electrically isolate the diode's
"back" from the heat sink. This is only needed for large heat sinks. A small
heat sink can easily be mechanically supported by the screws which fastens
the diode to the heat sink. In a larger heat sink you either electrically
isolate the heat sink from the main chassis or (better) isolate the chip's
case from the heat sink. The second approach leaves less exposed metal
around with a voltage on it.
Electrical isolation is done with thin plates placed between the chip and
the heat sink. In the old days the plate was mica. Heat sink "grease" is
used to ensure a good thermal bond between all the layers. There are newer
insulators that don't require the grease. If you are using metal nuts and
screws to bolt the chip down then you need special non-conducting shoulder
washers to keep the nuts and screws from forming electrical contact between
the chip's case and the heat sink.
That is more than you ever wanted to know about heat sinks. I will stop
rambling now.
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie
Kuss
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Heat sink for Schottky diode
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss
--> <chaztuna@adelphia.net>
Listers,
Someone asked about a source for a heat sink for the Schottky diodes sold
by Eric Jones of Perihelion Design. RV builder Scott Chastain turned me on
to a nice heat sink made specifically for this diode. Scott told me he got
his from Radio Shack. I got mine from Mouser Electronics. It's part number
567-680-125A This heat sink is made by Wakefield Thermal Solutions.
You can find it here
http://www.mouser.com/index.cfm?&handler=data.listcategory&D=*567680125A*&te
rms=567-680-125A&Ntt=*567680125A*&Dk=1&Ns=SField&N=0&crc=true
Charlie Kuss
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: The Duplicitous Copy of my letter to Niagara |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com>
The whole NIAGARA letter is really a thinly valid attempt to discredit the
company, not a quest for knowledge or understanding. To be honest I find
you writing the competition and posing as a Quote: Hobbyist, to be of
questionable ethics, since you are associated with B&C.
WHY? Why do you care? Is an ego thing with you? Give it a break!!
FOLKS THESE ARE BOBS WORDS:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Alternator_Failures.pdf
*For years and since day-one of my participation in B&Cs development
and marketing of alternators, we have preached the doctrine of externally
regulated alternators. Examples of this philosophy are found though out
early writings and particularly in chapters on alternators in the Connection.
A simple inspection of B&Cs offerings from the beginning will show that
only externally regulated alternators are offered.*
WORDS like in the beginning and Doctrine sounds like the Bible. Bob I
think has a complex. Bob goes on to offer up foggy ANECDOTES,
which is nothing but sensational propaganda with NO FACTS!!!. This is very
unlike an engineer. Facts not anecdotes. This is the word according to BOB
and all shall agree or be attacked by the PARADIGM, what ever he means
by paradigm.
You are being duplicitous when you write Niagara and do not identify
yourself as a B&C associate. You have NO desire to learn from Niagara
and only want to mock them. No matter what their reply is you will nit
pick, attack and criticize, which you already did anyway.
Leave Niagara out of it. WE GET IT. THE WORDS ARE NOT
Precise. You could write it much better. OK, You win.
STICK TO B&C and internally regulated alternators and just leave the
internal regulated alternators and Niagara alone.
FYI: By the way JIM does not work at Niagara anymore, he was a
consultant. No doubt a dumb engineer. The owner is in Florida for the
winter, give them a call, I did. No I dont work for them and have no
affiliation what so ever except I have one of their great alternator kits.
HE SAID HE'S WAS AN ENGINEER LETS LYNCH HIM!!!!!
First I NEVER mentioned my degrees to put BOB down. I only
mentioned it because BOB was making up stuff a while back and coming
off as an engineer. I thought Bob was and engineer. As an engineer I was
MYSTIFIED that Bob said what he did, so I asked, Bob do you have a
degree in engineering. He said no and that he didnt think much of
Engineers!!!!!!! End of story. But now he is saying he is an engineer. GO
FIGURE. I have dealt with mechanics and electricians before, 1000s of
times, and most of the time it is mutual respect, but on occasion you run
into geniuses like Bob who know everything. Really he does.
I have HUGE respect for most of what Bob has done for the experimental
community. Sure some one with out a degree could apply engineering
principles, advanced math to problem solve and invent, but with out the
judgment combined with the education the results could be in great error.
This is where Bob gets in trouble by the way. He knows just enough to get
in trouble.
Bob is arrogant to tell off people with more experience & education
while refusing to admit his lack of understanding. Adding insult, Bob
throws out a bunch of big sound engineering words (incorrectly). I am not
talking about me BTW. Bob gets into pissing matches with everyone in the
industry and respects NO one (that disagrees) and assumes you're (in his
words) IGNORANT.
Now what is my problem? The problem I have with Bob is he demeans the
profession of engineering, implies that math (advanced math) is not useful
and that some how Votech grads are on par with those of MIT or any other
full university. This is just stupid and child like. May be Raytheon is not the
place to work and they have a hard time getting people to work there?
It kind of makes me mad. It takes 5 full years of a very demanding
curriculum to get a Bachelor degree in engineering. People who drop out
and cant hack it are the ones who are bitter. Bob says he could not go to
college because he had a family? Sound like a good excuse. I choose not
to have a family till later and suffer 5 years of poverty as a starving college
student. I was poor and worked in a shipyard as fitter for 1.5 years to pay
for school and continued to work throughout my undergrad work as a buss
boy, waiter and mechanic. I paid for 100% of my education, graduating on
the deans list. A 1year assoc degree in what ever does not compare.
Anyone who drops out of school and than ridicules people with degrees is a
petty person. I don't think Bob said that but a few of you did, and you know
who you are and should be ashamed of yourself.
In typical hypocritical fashion on one hand Bob puts down engineers in
general and than adapts or co-ops the title of Engineer. Bob claims to have
used engineering analysis, but miss uses engineering terms and concepts all
the time. When pointed out Bob goes into arrogant attack mode. When
asked for the data he never responds, while demanding PROOF from all
others. This is extremely frustrating. When cornered Bob uses words like
paradigm and Failure Effects Analysis. OK, wow impressive! What does
that mean Bob? Heard that at a meeting once? Lets see your FEA
analysis/data. Your audience is smart enough to understand it, lets see it.
I DON'T WANT TO PLAY, I'M TAKING MY BALL HOME
When Van made the statement on his site they would not warranty the
alternators he sold if an OV module was used; Bob acted like a child.
Bob: I AM NOT RECOMMENDING INTERNAL REGULATED
ALTERNATORS ANY MORE!!! AND TAKING THEM OUT OF MY
BOOK NEXT REVISION. (In retaliation he makes this edict!!! Like Van
gives a damn what he thinks. They sell 1000s of their alternators and so
does Niagara, who has sold I-VR ND alternators for almost 10 years
with NO RETURNS or problems.)
This reminded me of a child taking his ball because he is mad and does not
want to play anymore. Go and take your Book and recommendations and be
done with it. WE GET IT. DONT USE INTERNALLY REGULATED
ALTERNATORS. The thing that kills you Bob is people dont listen to your
every word. I am afraid to say but there will be more I-VR alternators flying
with out Bobs blessing. DONT TELL ME THE FAA WILL NOT certify
an I-VR. I dont care. First we fly experimental aircrarft second The FAA
will not certify Bobs hidden fuse box either, so I am good company.
For those who follow the word according to Bob, fine, I think that is
GREAT!! You will have good results, heavy, complicated results, but good
results. Like all system designers they loose the big picture. The plane has
to fly and weight, cost, build time are all factors.
STICK WITH WHAT YOU KNOW
If Bob would just stick to basic DC circuits (class 101) and the Doctrine,
use externally regulated alternators with crow bars. If you avoid implying
your engineering credentials, ability to do engineering analysis to support
your claims, I would be happy.
75% of your rap is opinion, not fact, which is fine. The other 25% is ......
That is all. Bob, be the teacher of basic DC circuits 101. Also promote
the use of B&C products, your BOOK and external regulated alternators
ONLY. Just be consistant and stop with the smoke and mirrors.
The only problem with external regulated alternators are there are NONE
available**, while there are fantastic ND alternators with internal VRs to
be had, which work well. You on the other had have single handily spread
more rumors and innuendos about I-VR than anyone on the web, while
bold face saying, WHO ME, no I support internal regulation, some of my
customers have them. READ your own words (doctrine from the beginning)
Bob. You don't support I-VR, or do you? MAKE YOUR MIND UP.
** B&C is out of their minds with what they charge.
I dont care if Bob has a degree; you cant do much damage with DC power
distribution circuits, since this was figured out 150 years ago (battery-wire-
switch-wire-light-ground). Anything he has wrote has been said before, but
agree his book is very useful text for amateur aircraft builders, even if there
is nothing new there. The crow bar by the way has been done before, which
Bob admits. The B&C voltage regulator is just the same old same old $10
VR in a $250 package with a crow bar.
That is all I have to say about Niagara and Bob.
PS the only reason Niagara offers an OV module it because people who
listen to Bob ask for it. To please customers they offer this certified device
add on, which cost a fortune. Their recommendation is NOT to use an OV
module and they dont sell many OV modules. If you want a crow-bar or
OV module consider using an externally regulated alternator, that is what
the OV modules are for. Adding the OV module on top of a ND alternator
with an I-VR is adding weight, parts and complexity at best, potentially
asking for problems when the I-VR clashes with the OV module at worse.
---------------------------------
Message 40
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| Subject: | Re: what is an engineer, flame suit technology |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com>
Wow, nice flame job. I had my nomex and asbestos underwear on and still
my short curly hairs got singed. It was more flame than the Space Shuttle
on re-entry.
For those with all the personal attacks and conjecture about me, that says
more about you than I. Its no doubt typical you run your mouth with out
knowing any facts. Ironic and hypocritical you do what you claim of me.
LOL
Let me just say I have no desire to defend myself from stupid attacks with
zero merit, but I will say although I fly for a living now, I get several
unsolicited calls a year for engineering consulting work, all over the US,
Europe, Asia and South America. My last full engineering contract was
about 8 years ago, earning me about $150,000, to sign off a B767 freighter
modification. It pays to go to school. hahaha So say what you want, I am
laughing my way to the bank.
Let me explain what a PE (professional engineer) is. First the PE license is
really only for engineers in Public works, like buildings and bridges. States
require the PE license to sign off drawings for public works. Also it is true
you can get a PE (professional Engineer license) with out a degree. You do
that by first taking the EIT exam (Engineer in Training) and having work
experience. Than take the PE eaxm. Chances of passing the exams with out
schoolwork, is low. This is like Law school and being a Lawyer. You don't
need to go to law school to be a lawyer; you only need to pass the Bar
exam, but without school the chance of passing is nil. Also the chance a
corporation or law firm will hire you as a Lawyer, with out the sheepskin, is
slim.
However in aerospace, working for a corporation a PE license is NOT
needed, common or required, but large corporations with out exception do
require a degree in engineering to be hired as an engineer. I only got a PE
because I do aerospace consulting as an individual, outside the corporate
umbrella. In fact what ever Bob does at Raytheon is not directly related to
final approval of the engineering definition of a component. An engineer
signs off what ever Bob does, one with a degree and likely a DER
(designated engineer representative). A DER is assigned by the FAA to
act on their behalf. Bob is not a DER and if he was it would be an oddity.
What is an engineer? Let me give you an aerospace example, but this is
similar to building a bridge, dam, road or skyscraper. The B777 was
designed by engineers: Mechanical, structural, electrical, chemical,
aerodynamics, metallurgical, materials, textile, manufacturing and process
engineers. How do they do their job? By and large the application of
advance mathematics, science and engineering principles. Of course FAR's
are involved.
The structural engineer uses FEM, finite element analysis. The
Aerodynamisist uses CFD, computational fluid dynamics/wind tunnel. This
requires very math intensive calculations. The electrical engineer? Well
look power distribution systems are OLD news; the leading edge is in
digital controls and fly by wire. The ART of AC or DC power distribution
has not changed much since the B707. OK. You don't need to be an
engineer to figure out a DC or AC system, I will admit.
However the electrical engineers are using advance mathematics and a large
body of knowledge in digital control and feed back to innovate and develop
new technologies, not just rehashing the same old principles. Obviously the
EFIS, FMC (Flt management computers), INS (inertial nav system) and fly
by wire technologies come to mind; however these are not really new
anymore.
What and where will the next innovations come from? ENGINEERS.
Chance is it will not be a kid from a Votech school that knows the bench as
Bob says. OK. Not a put down just a fact. We need to admire the academic
achievement and not scorn and ridicule it. I find the people who do this are
ones who could not cut it in school or are just plan ignorant. Not everyone
can be a self made man like Bob, no doubt he is much smarter than I am and
most Engineers or manager at Raytheon.
When I was in the field or factory, I worked with 100's of mechanics and
electricians (spark chasers as they like to be called) and have huge respect
and a great relation with most, but some should not have been within 100
yard of a dog house much less a jet aircraft or spacecraft.
Look the engineers who invented the solid state transistors where college
(MIT) educated. The level of technology we are at in the world now requires
advanced degrees, agree or not, that is my opinion. The sad fact is bone
heads that discount the value of education is one reason the US is loosing the
lead in the world.
Now not everyone needs to invent the transistor. Look at Bob, he has not
invented anything. Everything, including the crow bar, been done before, but
he did put it all in a book, which is handy. Not having a degree takes nothing
away from that. The technical guys who comes up with applications that use
transistors are also clever and needed just as much at the inventor of the
transistor itself, but to achieve breakthroughs requires technical chops and
education. We will not achieve technical lead in the world thru the Votech's.
I hope that clears up what an engineer is. I understand the average person
does not grasp what an engineer is because of the level of math and science.
Think of engineers as problem solvers or practical physicist/scientist for
society. Engineers are involved in almost every product you touch every
day from toaster, car, TV to a package at the grocery store and the machine
that packed it. Engineers are more than the wiring in your homebuilt.
Bob is a special case and his vast experience working on planes is a great
education equivalent to and much better than a degree. OK I said it Bob's
great long live the king. Buy his book go to his class you will learn.
Geeeeeeee
Cheers George
---------------------------------
Message 41
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| Subject: | Re: The Duplicitous Copy of my letter to Niagara |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
Vvvvvvvvvvv joke vvvvvvvvvvv joke vvvvvvvvvvvv joke vvvvvvvvvvv joke
vvvvvvvvvvvv joke
By God, he's right! Bob has a hidden agenda, he's in it for the money. No
wonder he spends a good chunk of the day answering questions on this list.
He is trying to steer business to a company that he has no financial
interest in! No, wait B&C is just a front for (wait for it) Bob! I've been
so blind.
joke
joke
joke
joke
joke
It's a joke, can't be to careful the days.
By the way, GM - what's on your agenda? (not a joke)
-- GM masquerading as Bob masquerading as Craig
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