---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 01/03/06: 41 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:02 AM - Re: D25 Steering Diode Question ? (LarryRobertHelming) 2. 05:09 AM - Re: noise (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 3. 05:37 AM - Re: Accessory load monitoring (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 05:38 AM - Re: Key Switch - single mag (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 05:51 AM - Re: Re: Switch Washers/ugly hole (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 05:56 AM - Re: Use Of Diode on S704-1 Relay (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 06:49 AM - cross feed contactor (Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)) 8. 07:01 AM - Better List Conduct...Practical Matters.... (Eric M. Jones) 9. 07:27 AM - Close Proximity Air2Air Comm problem (HELP!) (Fiveonepw@aol.com) 10. 07:32 AM - Re: Re: Copy of my letter to Niagara Airparts. (Chuck Jensen) 11. 07:36 AM - Re: Re: Switch Washers/ugly hole (Dan Checkoway) 12. 07:38 AM - coax stripper (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 13. 07:52 AM - Re: Close Proximity Air2Air Comm problem (HELP!) (Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)) 14. 08:38 AM - Re: Wingtip Light Monitors (Gary Edwards) 15. 08:52 AM - Re: Wiring Diagrams Design Software (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 16. 09:32 AM - Re: Re: Wiring Diagrams Design Software (Matt Prather) 17. 09:49 AM - Re: Close Proximity Air2Air Comm problem (HELP!) (sportav8r@AOL.COM) 18. 09:51 AM - Re: Re: Wiring Diagrams Design Software (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 19. 10:04 AM - Re: Re: Wiring Diagrams Design Software (Steve Allison) 20. 10:13 AM - Re: Re: Wiring Diagrams Design Software (rv-9a-online) 21. 10:24 AM - Re: Re: Copy of my letter to Niagara Airparts. (Gordon or Marge Comfort) 22. 11:15 AM - Re: Re: Wiring Diagrams Design Software (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 23. 11:24 AM - Re: Close Proximity Air2Air Comm problem (HELP!) (G McNutt) 24. 11:24 AM - Re: Close Proximity Air2Air Comm problem (Dave Morris \) 25. 11:34 AM - Re: Re: Wiring Diagrams Design Software (Steve Thomas) 26. 11:55 AM - Re: Re: Wiring Diagrams Design Software (Fiveonepw@aol.com) 27. 01:04 PM - Re: Close Proximity Air2Air Comm problem (HELP!) (Alan K. Adamson) 28. 01:31 PM - Re: Wiring Diagrams Design Software (Dave Morris \) 29. 02:11 PM - Re: Instrument Panel Labels (Mark R Steitle) 30. 03:14 PM - Re: Instrument Panel Labels (Craig Payne) 31. 04:11 PM - Re: Wiring Diagrams Design Software (Dan Beadle) 32. 04:35 PM - Re: Re: Wiring Diagrams Design Software (Ken) 33. 05:10 PM - Re: Re: Wiring Diagrams Design Software (William Slaughter) 34. 05:24 PM - Re: Better List Conduct...Practical (Charlie Kuss) 35. 06:22 PM - Re: Better List Conduct...Practical Matters.... (Peter Laurence) 36. 06:47 PM - Heat sink for Schottky diode (Charlie Kuss) 37. 07:23 PM - was noise (bob noffs) 38. 07:47 PM - Re: Heat sink for Schottky diode (Craig Payne) 39. 09:18 PM - Re: The Duplicitous Copy of my letter to Niagara () 40. 09:24 PM - Re: what is an engineer, flame suit technology () 41. 09:46 PM - Re: Re: The Duplicitous Copy of my letter to Niagara (Craig Payne) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:02:59 AM PST US From: "LarryRobertHelming" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: D25 Steering Diode Question ? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming" I agree. The down side to Eric's Schottkey diode is that it is not as friendly in mounting with fused buses as the D25. I am toying with the idea of gluing my Schottkey to a piece of angle aluminum to isolate it and mount it to the frame using plastic screws. Not sue if the glue will handle the heat however. I am using fused buses FWIW. A good heat sink with isolation mounting would be very nice support for Eric in my opinion. Indiana Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Olson" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: D25 Steering Diode Question ? > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Tim Olson > > You already got your official answer from Bob, so this is just > a bonus confirmation. Yes, you have 2 diodes that you can use > in parallel, with a common output. You won't get a lot more current > carrying, because it's still just coming out one terminal, but > you can use both diodes if you're so inclined. I just wired mine > yesterday and used both. > > I'm also hoping that Eric gets a good mounting kit for his > schottky diode, as I'd really like to use that one instead > if possible. > > Tim > > Tim Olson -- RV-10 #40170 > DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:09:10 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: noise --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 08:12 PM 1/2/2006 -0600, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "bob noffs" > > hi all, > laying out my panel and i have my intercom right next to my turn coor. > am i asking for noise from the turn coor.? if so, how far should i move > the intercom? thanks in advance, > >bob noffs There is no standard proscription for co-locating accessories on your panel. In the TC aircraft world we've been able to depend on recommendations of DO-160/Mil-Std-704 and cousins to predict a long, prosperous and neighborly relationship between the ships various accessories. I presume your concerns arise from the numbers of past threads where folks have had problems with certain brands of turn coordinator. Know that not all turn coordinators are the same and the majority will happily co-exist on a panel with other accessories. If your thinking about using one of the "bad boys" with a history of problems, know that there are two major propagation modes for noise from these devices: (1) magnetic coupling - easily broken with a two- or three layer wrap of galvanized sheet metal (roof flashing) around the case. This can be a long strip wrapped around the instrument and held in place with tie-wraps. (2) RFI noise coupled out the wiring at the back of the instrument. It may be as simple as adding a filter capacitor or may take a combination of capacitor and inductor to stop off the noise. Both of these fixes can and should be installed later and only after you know that they're necessary. Bottom line is that I'd really hate to see you shuffle your panel appearance and utility to mitigate concerns for a situation that's best dealt with after the rest of the wiring and installation is completed. Have you considered one of the new, solid state rate gyros out there? Much more reliable and in the long run, probably lower cost of ownership. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:37:28 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Accessory load monitoring --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 11:19 PM 1/1/2006 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com > >Howdy A-list! > >I know this is nothing electric, but that's part of what makes it so cool. >It worked out so well I just thought I'd share with the rest of y'all! > >http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/index.php?q=log_entry&log_id=7883 > >Click on the fotos for a better view and >>Next Entry>> to the next two pages >for the "how-to". Lemme know if ya got any ?s. Pretty neat . . . and imaginative! Thanks for sharing this. There are some electronic ways to detect electrical integrity of various loads too. One of the simplest is illustrated at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Misc/CurrentSense.jpg You can buy the contact capsule for a reed relay or switch from various sources. I believe Radio Shack sells them still. It takes some experimentation to size the excitation coil with the load. It takes more turns to detect say a 2A nav light than it does to monitor a 100W landing light or pitot tube. A schematic of an exemplar installation is shown at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/DeIce/Pitot_Heat.pdf This technique is used in many of our TC aircraft to make sure that when an accessory is ON, that it is also drawing current. We use them on pitot heaters and electric windshields. They could just as easily be applied to any remotely located but not easily observed load like light bulbs. Many automobiles use electronic voltage/current detectors to warn drivers of burned out lamps. At one time I considered an article on applying one of the modern voltage/load detector chips . . . but abandoned the idea in favor of the reed relay technique. The chip was pretty neat but required some etched circuit boards and assembly techniques not common to the OBAM aircraft builder's stock and trade. The custom reed relays are simple and just as effective. Sometimes the best way to drive a nail is with a hammer. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:38:46 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Key Switch - single mag --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 06:14 PM 1/1/2006 +0000, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "bob rundle" > >Can someone tell me how to wire a standard key switch (L,R,BOTH,START) for a >single mag? I have a separate switch for a single plasma III ignition. The >single left mag is has impulse coupling and I start with the mag only and >the elec. ign off. Wire it just like you had two mags . . . except nothing is connected to the right mag terminal. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:51:59 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RE: Switch Washers/ugly hole --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" I always put anti-rotation washers on the back side. If your switch panel includes an engraved overlay, then holes in the panel for the tab holes can go all the way through . . . and tabs on washers trimmed to insure they are flush or under-flush to the panel surface. If your panel plans don't include an engraved overlay, then consider a rear shim of sheet metal drilled for the anti-rotation tabs . . . the instrument panel surface stays clean. Again, you may have to trim the anti-rotation tabs a bit. I would avoid any kind of gluing operation for this installation except maybe to hold the rear shim in place . . . a couple of spots of Sho-Goo works good. Bob . . . At 11:28 AM 12/31/2005 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" > >Another way is to forget the washer and put a dab of RTV on the back/side of >the switch after it's tight. > >Bruce >www.glasair.org > > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ron >To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Switch Washers/ugly hole > > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ron" > >I have a suggestion that works for me and wanted to pass it on to the list. >I did not want to drill a 1/8" hole above the Switch hole for cosmetic >reasons. What I suggest is to sharpen to a small point the part of the >washer that is against the back of your panel with just enough of a point to >press into the back of the panel. This will keep all things from turning and >you won't have the exposed hole. I used carbon fibre sheet for the panel and >it works fine, should work with any other material also. > >Ron Triano > >http://bld01.ipowerweb.com/contentmanagement/websites/rtrianoc/page10.html > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. >Nuckolls, III >To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Circuit Breaker v. Fuse > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > >At 07:28 PM 12/29/2005 -0500, you wrote: > > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" > > > > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rogers, Bob J." BRogers@fdic.gov > > > >...snip... > > >My question is this. If I use 18 awg wire > > >with a 10 amp fuse from the power bus up to the 5 amp circuit breaker, > > >will the 5 amp breaker trip before the 10 amp fuse blows in the event of > > >a dead short in the wire, such as from a Crowbar OV Module? > > > > >I do not want the fuse at the power bus to blow before the circuit > > >breaker pops, > > > >The expectation is that a smaller CB is faster than a bigger one. But be > >very careful. You could be wrong. > > > > >Somewhere, I read that fuses react faster than circuit breakers, so I am > > >asking how many more amps does the fuse have to carry > > >before I can be sure that it will not blow before the 5 amp CB pops. > > > >In general, fuses depend on thermal heating to break and this has some time > >lags. Circuit breakes usually do too, but breakers can be magnetic or > >electronic and can operate at any speed. > > > > >the alternator cannot be reset in flight from a nuisance trip. > > > >Google " AeroElectric nuisance OR false trips " then decide. > > > > >Any advice will be appreciated. > > > >My advice is don't use a crowbar, then none of this will be an issue. > > How is this useful? I did Google the phrases you suggested > and got the full dump of most of the threads on the topic > that were posted on this list server. > > There has never been an argument that some combinations of > the AeroElectric/B&C ov protection systems needed tweaking. > Much has been made of a handful of individuals who CLAIM to > have had a lot of trouble but declined to take us up on our > 100% satisfaction guarantee for refund on materials unsuited > to the buyer's wants/needs. > > I made an offer right here on the list to refund the purchase > price of any crowbar ov product purchased from me along with > a bonus of $50. Gee, you'd think that at least one unhappy > customer would come forward to claim his $85 prize. I spent > hours of research for hard data to back up the engineering > choices on our product and received nothing back but blue > smoke and mud balls. > > Nothing is mentioned about failures in the Van's alternator > installations being just as susceptible to the load-dump > damage irrespective of what type of ov protection is offered . . . > but lots of inferences that figure Z-24 was the root cause > of the failures and was to be avoided. I note that > Niagra Airparts is offering an ov protection system for their > 40A alternator installation. See: > >http://www.niagaraairparts.com/ASP101-PIT%201.pdf > > Hmmmm . . . amazing similar to Z-24 . . . do you suppose that > an owner/builder could blow up his alternator with this > system too? > > Nothing is said in these threads or other on-line discussions > about the thousands of systems flying for nearly 20 years in > OBAM aircraft and now probably over 1000 systems flying in > type certificated aircraft. The only words speaking to our > demonstrated willingness to fix what ever problems do arise > came from myself. I only wish some of the multi$kilo$ > systems I wrestle with on bizjets had so high a field > service record as the crowbar ov system we've sold to GA > light aircraft. > > If you're suggesting that a prudent buying decision can > be made based on the search terms you've suggested . . . > well . . . the dearth of logic in this advice is self > evident. You've ridden this horse to death sir. Give it > up. > > Bob . . . > > >-- > > >-- incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------------- < Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition > < of man. Advances which permit this norm to be > < exceeded -- here and there, now and then -- are the > < work of an extremely small minority, frequently > < despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed > < by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny > < minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes > < happens) is driven out of a society, the people > < then slip back into abject poverty. > < > < This is known as "bad luck". > < -Lazarus Long- > <------------------------------------------------------> http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:56:42 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Use Of Diode on S704-1 Relay --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 08:02 PM 12/30/2005 +0000, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: dsvs@comcast.net > >Hi Bob, >On Diagram z-32 you show a diode between the coil wires on the S704 >relay. On Z-13/8 the S704 that is used in the alternate alternator >circuit has an OVM-14 but no diiode. Will you explain why there is no >diode present in one circuit and there is one present in the other? Does >the OVM-14 negate the need for the diode? Thanks. Don Good question. There's no reason not to treat the relay installation you've cited like all the rest. I'm not real sure how the crowbar module contributes to the negative spike mitigation . . . I'll have to go measure that. However, if you'd like to include a diode on the relay, here's a way to get it installed. http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Relays/s704inst.jpg Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:49:23 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: cross feed contactor From: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/s701-2.jpg I have this contactor above for my alternator feed and the crow bar ov protector wired to it. I have an internally regulated alternator. I need a diagram of how to wire the crowbar to it and which studs do what. As an example, looking at this image above, and numbering the studs left to right, 1-4. Is the #1 stud alternator input, #2 coil engage +12, #3 coil gnd, #4 output +12? Thanks for the help. Mike Do not archive ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:01:19 AM PST US From: "Eric M. Jones" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Better List Conduct...Practical Matters.... --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" Guys.... All this stuff looks like a yellow sh*t storm to me. I actually take some iconoclastic guilty pleasure from seeing George lambaste Bob, and Bob recite his experience and around and around it goes. The college I went to tossed me out with a degree when they discovered that my barely post-pubescent head was a full as they could stuff it. A degree, like a pilot's certificate is only a license to learn more stuff. Pity the graduate or the pilot who stops learning...and there are many. I actually (at times) do measure people by their degrees, but I make distinctions between Eastern US versus Western US versus European and every kind and type of farm college, military, technical school and people who have tattoos. But it's a waste of time. My New Year's Wishes: I would like to see personalities kept out of the discussion. I would like to see Bob N. not waste his time defending himself (his good works are plentifully abundant and apparent). I would like to see AeroElectric Listers eschew invective, and refrain from personal attacks OR personal adoration (except for obituaries perhaps). If we have to see Bob's resume one more time perhaps we should post OUR resumes. Then what a bore we all will be. Personalities should never be the issue here. We are all good and bad some times. Regards, Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge MA 01550-2705 (508) 764-2072 "The problem with the world is that only the intelligent people want to be smarter, and only the good people want to improve." - Eolake Stobblehouse ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:27:51 AM PST US From: Fiveonepw@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Close Proximity Air2Air Comm problem (HELP!) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com Howdy all- After another frustrating couple of occasions trying to communicate with fellow formators I MUST come up with some solution to this problem. Recap- whenever closer than 300' (MOL) to other planes, transmissions from other planes are typically very garbled & unreadable on my Microair 760. They can hear me fine & radio works excellent at greater distances. Several listers here have suggested BNC attenuators to resolve this, but most I've found are limited to less than the output power of the 760 (about 5watts). See: http://www.smelectronics.us/bnc,fattenuators.htm A representative for JFW Industries claims to have a 50 ohm/5 watt unit at a reasonable price ($45) that he claims will do what I need. Unfortunately, it seems installing one of these "should" mitigate the formation problem, but longer-range comm will suffer. I asked about a "switchable" unit. The rep said it's possible, but much pricier (custom job). Another A-lister suggested a microwave switch to bypass the attenuator when not needed. Bob N. has offered to produce a kit to address the problem, but would have to order circuit boards and put together parts lists, and could only do so if at least 4 units were ordered. I haven't heard from anyone else having my "problem", so that's likely a bust. (Bob- if you see this, is the unit you allude to similar to the "Active Attenuator for VHF-FM" suggested for fox hunts shown in the References section of the ARRL handbook? Mine is 78th edition (2001)- unit is page 30.64) If my understanding of this unit is right, it works by generating mixing products using an oscillator (requiring tuning reception to off-frequency? Not sure how this works for transmitting) Microair tech support suggests the following: "The radio's operation is normal. What you need is an antenna switch with a lower gain antenna for these situations. This should reduce the receiver sensitivity at the front end. When you aren't in formation or in close proximity to other aircraft, you should be able to switch back to your bent whip for greater sensitivity at the lower end." Possible solution: I have a couple of Rubber Duckie antennas. I could mount one of these to a BNC receptacle on the larger side of a dedicated metal box (about 3"x3"x1") under my panel with the RD pointed toward the floor. A short RG400 patch cord from the 760 to the box, and the belly antenna RG400 to another receptacle on the box. A SPDT switch also mounted to the box would simply connect either the RD or main antenna to the 760. (Fancier yet, make it a DPDT feeding a lamp on my annunciator: "AUX ANT ON") If the proximity of the RD to panel stuff turned out to be a problem, it could be re-located somewhere aft via a separate RG400, such as under the transverse seat back brace (RV-6A tip-up). What say ye wise ones? Thanks for any suggestions or critique- I have GOTTA fix this! Mark Phillips - do not archive ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:32:39 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Copy of my letter to Niagara Airparts. From: "Chuck Jensen" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Chuck Jensen" Ah, yes, I believe some states have such laws....usually passed at the behest of...you guessed it, Engineers. Easier to protect your profession with laws than with good services and products. Of course, there are a lot of engineers that do a lot of engineering but technically, if you want to be an "Engineer", you're allegedly supposed to be degreed, certified or blessed. But know this, irrespective of the length of Campbell Soup appellations after your name, you will be known by your work, not your titles. This is a scary thought for many Engineers. Chuck Do Not Archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Schroeder Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Copy of my letter to Niagara Airparts. --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Schroeder" Isn't it against state law in a lot of states to use the title "Engineer" if one is not a registered PE in that state? I believe this is the case here in NC. Cheers, John Schroeder ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:36:17 AM PST US From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE: Switch Washers/ugly hole --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" > I always put anti-rotation washers on the back side. If your switch > panel includes an engraved overlay, then holes in the panel for the > tab holes can go all the way through . . . and tabs on washers trimmed > to insure they are flush or under-flush to the panel surface. If your > panel plans don't include an engraved overlay, then consider a rear shim > of > sheet metal drilled for the anti-rotation tabs . . . the instrument > panel surface stays clean. Again, you may have to trim the anti-rotation > tabs > a bit. I would avoid any kind of gluing operation for this installation > except maybe to hold the rear shim in place . . . a couple of spots of > Sho-Goo works good. > > Bob . . . You took the words out of my mouth. Except there's no need to hold the rear shim in place if it serves more than one switch...it will be held and have its own anti-rotation feature by virtue of being held by multiple switches. See here: http://rvproject.com/images/2003/20030615_switch_backing_plate.jpg http://rvproject.com/images/2003/20030615_drilling_switch_holes.jpg Yes, those photos show the plate on the front of the panel, but it installs on the rear: http://rvproject.com/images/2003/20030701_switch_alignment_plate.jpg Sorry, those are crummy photos from my old camera, but you get the point. )_( Dan RV-7 N714D (756 hours since 3/27/04) http://www.rvproject.com ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:38:12 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: coax stripper --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Comments/Questions: Bob: I want a top notch Coaxial stripper for RG 400. What do you suggest? Have a good New Year. John Here's my personal favorite. I stock these to give away as part of the door prize pool at my seminars. http://www.gilchrist-electric.com/3-blade-coax-cable-strip.html You can purchase these off Ebay or directly from Gilchrist. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------- ( Experience and common sense cannot be ) ( replaced with policy and procedures. ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ----------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:52:35 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Close Proximity Air2Air Comm problem (HELP!) From: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" This is not an unusual problem. I have it and Id say about 1 in 4 formation guys see this problem in RV's. Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fiveonepw@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Close Proximity Air2Air Comm problem (HELP!) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com Howdy all- After another frustrating couple of occasions trying to communicate with fellow formators I MUST come up with some solution to this problem. Recap- whenever closer than 300' (MOL) to other planes, transmissions from other planes are typically very garbled & unreadable on my Microair 760. They can hear me fine & radio works excellent at greater distances. Several listers here have suggested BNC attenuators to resolve this, but most I've found are limited to less than the output power of the 760 (about 5watts). See: http://www.smelectronics.us/bnc,fattenuators.htm A representative for JFW Industries claims to have a 50 ohm/5 watt unit at a reasonable price ($45) that he claims will do what I need. Unfortunately, it seems installing one of these "should" mitigate the formation problem, but longer-range comm will suffer. I asked about a "switchable" unit. The rep said it's possible, but much pricier (custom job). Another A-lister suggested a microwave switch to bypass the attenuator when not needed. Bob N. has offered to produce a kit to address the problem, but would have to order circuit boards and put together parts lists, and could only do so if at least 4 units were ordered. I haven't heard from anyone else having my "problem", so that's likely a bust. (Bob- if you see this, is the unit you allude to similar to the "Active Attenuator for VHF-FM" suggested for fox hunts shown in the References section of the ARRL handbook? Mine is 78th edition (2001)- unit is page 30.64) If my understanding of this unit is right, it works by generating mixing products using an oscillator (requiring tuning reception to off-frequency? Not sure how this works for transmitting) Microair tech support suggests the following: "The radio's operation is normal. What you need is an antenna switch with a lower gain antenna for these situations. This should reduce the receiver sensitivity at the front end. When you aren't in formation or in close proximity to other aircraft, you should be able to switch back to your bent whip for greater sensitivity at the lower end." Possible solution: I have a couple of Rubber Duckie antennas. I could mount one of these to a BNC receptacle on the larger side of a dedicated metal box (about 3"x3"x1") under my panel with the RD pointed toward the floor. A short RG400 patch cord from the 760 to the box, and the belly antenna RG400 to another receptacle on the box. A SPDT switch also mounted to the box would simply connect either the RD or main antenna to the 760. (Fancier yet, make it a DPDT feeding a lamp on my annunciator: "AUX ANT ON") If the proximity of the RD to panel stuff turned out to be a problem, it could be re-located somewhere aft via a separate RG400, such as under the transverse seat back brace (RV-6A tip-up). What say ye wise ones? Thanks for any suggestions or critique- I have GOTTA fix this! Mark Phillips - do not archive ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:38:56 AM PST US From: "Gary Edwards" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Wingtip Light Monitors --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Gary Edwards" Mark, Good info about your wingtip indicators. Thanks. I have a similar system in my LNC2 Lancair that I installed in the mid '90's (first flight 3/99). The fiber optics, three from each wing tip, one each for navigation, strobes, and tail lights, are routed thru each wing electrical conduit to a small indicator face on the lower area of the instrument panel. The small face on the instrument panel has small colored lenses for the nav. lights and clear lenses for the strobes and tail lights. The optic fiber ends in the wing tips are actually mounted inside each light fixture hence the reason for the colored lenses on the panel. I had a '70 Corvette and a '78 Seville that both utilized fiber optics. So I figured it ought to work on the Lancair. An early test in a friends hanger using his RV, with me under a blanket looking straight into the end of a fiber when he turned on his strobes, was very convincing. It worked better than I had anticipated. It was so bright, I couldn't see for several minutes. I ended up removing the lenses in the panel display and dulling the back side of them with sand paper to tone down the brightness. So far, this simple wing tip light indicator system has been trouble free. I will install the same system when I begin construction of a Lancair Legacy. Gary Edwards LNC2 N21SN Medford, Oregon Time: 08:23:37 PM PST US From: Fiveonepw@aol.com Subject: Wingtip Light Monitors --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com Howdy A-list! I know this is nothing electric, but that's part of what makes it so cool. It worked out so well I just thought I'd share with the rest of y'all! http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/index.php?qlog_entry&log_id7883 Click on the fotos for a better view and >>Next Entry>> to the next two pages for the "how-to". Lemme know if ya got any ?s. Happy 2 double-oh 6 to all! Mark Phillips ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:52:28 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Wiring Diagrams Design Software --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 07:32 PM 12/30/2005 -0800, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Burnaby" > >I use TurboCAD v.7, for all kinds of designing and what-iffing. The >software will import common AutoCAD formats (.dxf, .dwg) and converts its >native format to these as well. I'm not an engineer, and I found >TurboCAD's learning curve easy to negotiate as a total CAD novice. It came >with a large library of electrical symbols or you can roll your own of >anything you can dream up. You can "group" individual components so that >they act like one entity (for moving, coloring, etc.) or you can "explode" >an entity so that you can modify an individual component. I find it all >easy to do. The program is a full blown 3-D CAD program and I've seen 3-D >renderings that accomplished users have done and they are truly amazing, >but I've never had a need to go there. The program is several versions >down the road from v. 7 by now, but I will not even approach the >capabilities of v.7 in my lifetime. I paid about $60-70 for mine, but v. >10.2 is advertised on-line for $49. >v 9.2 for $19.95. For the early days of aeroelectric.com, I attempted to keep all posted AutoCAD drawings in version 12 formats so that a variety of freeware and shareware cad programs (also posted on the website) would open, edit, save and print the drawings I generated. More recently, I had to forego the time it took to maintain the growing list of drawings and I dropped that service. I've had many requests for recommendations on software other than the expensive AutoCAD for editing my drawings. I've just ordered TurboCAD off Ebay (v10.2 for $26 post paid) and I'll test it using the .dwg files off the website as source drawings. If the tests prove successful, I'll post the results along with a recommendation for its use with files you can download from aeroelectric.com (including the complete symbol library and wirebooks in progress). For those interested in generating nice drawings for their diagrams, more than half the work is already done. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:32:49 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Wiring Diagrams Design Software From: "Matt Prather" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" A while back (at university, actually), I used a software package from Express PCB which did PCB layouts, including autorouting. I see they now have packaged the PCB software with schematic layout. Has anyone else looked at it. I haven't run the PCB software in 9 years, by from my recollection, it was pretty slick. I may test drive this stuff (for schematics) when I get home. http://www.expresspcb.com/ExpressPCBHtm/Free_cad_software.htm Regards, Matt- > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > > At 07:32 PM 12/30/2005 -0800, you wrote: > >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Burnaby" >> >> >>I use TurboCAD v.7, for all kinds of designing and what-iffing. The >> software will import common AutoCAD formats (.dxf, .dwg) and converts >> its native format to these as well. I'm not an engineer, and I found >> TurboCAD's learning curve easy to negotiate as a total CAD novice. It >> came with a large library of electrical symbols or you can roll your >> own of anything you can dream up. You can "group" individual >> components so that they act like one entity (for moving, coloring, >> etc.) or you can "explode" an entity so that you can modify an >> individual component. I find it all easy to do. The program is a full >> blown 3-D CAD program and I've seen 3-D renderings that accomplished >> users have done and they are truly amazing, but I've never had a need >> to go there. The program is several versions down the road from v. 7 >> by now, but I will not even approach the capabilities of v.7 in my >> lifetime. I paid about $60-70 for mine, but v. 10.2 is advertised >> on-line for $49. >>v 9.2 for $19.95. > > For the early days of aeroelectric.com, I attempted to keep > all posted AutoCAD drawings in version 12 formats so that a > variety of freeware and shareware cad programs (also posted on > the website) would open, edit, save and print the drawings > I generated. > > More recently, I had to forego the time it took to maintain > the growing list of drawings and I dropped that service. > > I've had many requests for recommendations on software other > than the expensive AutoCAD for editing my drawings. I've just > ordered TurboCAD off Ebay (v10.2 for $26 post paid) and I'll > test it using the .dwg files off the website as source drawings. > > If the tests prove successful, I'll post the results along > with a recommendation for its use with files you can download > from aeroelectric.com (including the complete symbol library > and wirebooks in progress). For those interested in generating > nice drawings for their diagrams, more than half the work is > already done. > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:49:27 AM PST US From: sportav8r@AOL.COM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Close Proximity Air2Air Comm problem (HELP!) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com Your annunciator light suggestion triggered an idea: long ago, when dinosaurs, er, when vacuum tube finals ruled the airwaves, we'd dip and load our tube finals into 100w light bulbs used as dummy loads. It was, however, possible to communicate over such an "antenna" at greatly reduced efficiency. And I believe the much lower radiated power output (vs a rubber duck) will reduce the chances that you'll zap sensitive avionics with too much field strength in the cockpit. Maybe try a light bulb in the 50-ohm and 5-10 watt dissipation range as the actual "antenna" for close-in work? If my math is correct, a 12-volt 5 watt bulb will come in close to 25 ohms (28.8) so you could run two in series to make an approximate 50 ohm load that converts the vast majority of your RF to heat; just what you need. For a 120 v bulb, you're going to need closer to 288 watts rating to see 50 ohms resistance. Let us know how it works ;-) And someone else please check my math! -Stormy -----Original Message----- From: Fiveonepw@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Close Proximity Air2Air Comm problem (HELP!) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com Howdy all- After another frustrating couple of occasions trying to communicate with fellow formators I MUST come up with some solution to this problem. Recap- whenever closer than 300' (MOL) to other planes, transmissions from other planes are typically very garbled & unreadable on my Microair 760. They can hear me fine & radio works excellent at greater distances. Several listers here have suggested BNC attenuators to resolve this, but most I've found are limited to less than the output power of the 760 (about 5watts). See: http://www.smelectronics.us/bnc,fattenuators.htm A representative for JFW Industries claims to have a 50 ohm/5 watt unit at a reasonable price ($45) that he claims will do what I need. Unfortunately, it seems installing one of these "should" mitigate the formation problem, but longer-range comm will suffer. I asked about a "switchable" unit. The rep said it's possible, but much pricier (custom job). Another A-lister suggested a microwave switch to bypass the attenuator when not needed. Bob N. has offered to produce a kit to address the problem, but would have to order circuit boards and put together parts lists, and could only do so if at least 4 units were ordered. I haven't heard from anyone else having my "problem", so that's likely a bust. (Bob- if you see this, is the unit you allude to similar to the "Active Attenuator for VHF-FM" suggested for fox hunts shown in the References section of the ARRL handbook? Mine is 78th edition (2001)- unit is page 30.64) If my understanding of this unit is right, it works by generating mixing products using an oscillator (requiring tuning reception to off-frequency? Not sure how this works for transmitting) Microair tech support suggests the following: "The radio's operation is normal. What you need is an antenna switch with a lower gain antenna for these situations. This should reduce the receiver sensitivity at the front end. When you aren't in formation or in close proximity to other aircraft, you should be able to switch back to your bent whip for greater sensitivity at the lower end." Possible solution: I have a couple of Rubber Duckie antennas. I could mount one of these to a BNC receptacle on the larger side of a dedicated metal box (about 3"x3"x1") under my panel with the RD pointed toward the floor. A short RG400 patch cord from the 760 to the box, and the belly antenna RG400 to another receptacle on the box. A SPDT switch also mounted to the box would simply connect either the RD or main antenna to the 760. (Fancier yet, make it a DPDT feeding a lamp on my annunciator: "AUX ANT ON") If the proximity of the RD to panel stuff turned out to be a problem, it could be re-located somewhere aft via a separate RG400, such as under the transverse seat back brace (RV-6A tip-up). What say ye wise ones? Thanks for any suggestions or critique- I have GOTTA fix this! Mark Phillips - do not archive ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:51:17 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Wiring Diagrams Design Software --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 10:31 AM 1/3/2006 -0700, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" > >A while back (at university, actually), I used a software package from >Express PCB which did PCB layouts, including autorouting. I see they now >have packaged the PCB software with schematic layout. Has anyone else >looked at it. I haven't run the PCB software in 9 years, by from my >recollection, it was pretty slick. I may test drive this stuff (for >schematics) when I get home. > >http://www.expresspcb.com/ExpressPCBHtm/Free_cad_software.htm Let me know what you think. I have this software. I use ExpressPCB for 90% of our production ECB needs. the schematic module is tailored to interface with their ECB layout module as a schematic capture feature. I wasn't impressed with their symbol library or final appearance of the drawings . . . but then it was never intended as a publishing or illustration tool. Accordingly, the supplied symbols are for board-level components and one would have to generate a whole new library for system level components. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:04:59 AM PST US From: Steve Allison Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Wiring Diagrams Design Software --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Steve Allison Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > I've had many requests for recommendations on software other > than the expensive AutoCAD for editing my drawings. I've just > ordered TurboCAD off Ebay (v10.2 for $26 post paid) and I'll > test it using the .dwg files off the website as source drawings. > > If the tests prove successful, I'll post the results along > with a recommendation for its use with files you can download > from aeroelectric.com (including the complete symbol library > and wirebooks in progress). For those interested in generating > nice drawings for their diagrams, more than half the work is > already done. > > Bob . . . Bob, I have successfully used TurboCAD (versions 8 and 10) to import and use .dwg files from your website. I've also picked up and used .dwg files from other sites too, again without any problems. I did change some text styles, line widths and shading/cross hatching to suite my own drawing style, but the basic geometry import was good. TurboCAD can read and write several other formats other than its own native .tcw files. The ones of most interest to CAD users are probably .dwg (AutoCAD) and .dxf (Drawing eXchange Format). TurboCAD is published by IMSI: http://www.imsisoft.com/ I am using it for the panel mechanical layout and electrical system design. No financial interest in the company, just a satisfied user. Steve RV-6A builder ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:13:51 AM PST US From: rv-9a-online Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Wiring Diagrams Design Software --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: rv-9a-online Matt: here's a complete schematic in ExpressSCH for a typical aircraft, plus a symbol library that has many of B&C's switches etc. http://vx-aviation.com/page_3.html Vern Little do not archive Matt Prather wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" > >A while back (at university, actually), I used a software package from >Express PCB which did PCB layouts, including autorouting. I see they now >have packaged the PCB software with schematic layout. Has anyone else >looked at it. I haven't run the PCB software in 9 years, by from my >recollection, it was pretty slick. I may test drive this stuff (for >schematics) when I get home. > >http://www.expresspcb.com/ExpressPCBHtm/Free_cad_software.htm > > >Regards, > >Matt- > > > >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" >> >> >>At 07:32 PM 12/30/2005 -0800, you wrote: >> >> >> >>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Burnaby" >>> >>> >>>I use TurboCAD v.7, for all kinds of designing and what-iffing. The >>>software will import common AutoCAD formats (.dxf, .dwg) and converts >>>its native format to these as well. I'm not an engineer, and I found >>>TurboCAD's learning curve easy to negotiate as a total CAD novice. It >>>came with a large library of electrical symbols or you can roll your >>>own of anything you can dream up. You can "group" individual >>>components so that they act like one entity (for moving, coloring, >>>etc.) or you can "explode" an entity so that you can modify an >>>individual component. I find it all easy to do. The program is a full >>>blown 3-D CAD program and I've seen 3-D renderings that accomplished >>>users have done and they are truly amazing, but I've never had a need >>>to go there. The program is several versions down the road from v. 7 >>>by now, but I will not even approach the capabilities of v.7 in my >>>lifetime. I paid about $60-70 for mine, but v. 10.2 is advertised >>>on-line for $49. >>>v 9.2 for $19.95. >>> >>> >> For the early days of aeroelectric.com, I attempted to keep >> all posted AutoCAD drawings in version 12 formats so that a >> variety of freeware and shareware cad programs (also posted on >> the website) would open, edit, save and print the drawings >> I generated. >> >> More recently, I had to forego the time it took to maintain >> the growing list of drawings and I dropped that service. >> >> I've had many requests for recommendations on software other >> than the expensive AutoCAD for editing my drawings. I've just >> ordered TurboCAD off Ebay (v10.2 for $26 post paid) and I'll >> test it using the .dwg files off the website as source drawings. >> >> If the tests prove successful, I'll post the results along >> with a recommendation for its use with files you can download >> from aeroelectric.com (including the complete symbol library >> and wirebooks in progress). For those interested in generating >> nice drawings for their diagrams, more than half the work is >> already done. >> >> Bob . . . >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 10:24:01 AM PST US From: "Gordon or Marge Comfort" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Copy of my letter to Niagara Airparts. --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Gordon or Marge Comfort" -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Airparts. Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Copy of my letter to Niagara Airparts. >Hey, Bob: Pay George no mind. He clearly doesn't know how to read. >His thinking is equally muddled. But then, he is an Engineer. I >suspect he is bipolar. In a manic phase. > >Gordon Comfort >N363GC Gently, gently my friend. By the way, how many hours do you have on that airplane? By my reckoning you should have worn out the first engine by now. You guys were going to come visit us. I just chased family out of the guest room on their Christmas visit, you and Marge are encouraged to use it at any time. Dee finished her PhD last spring and has become civilized We'd love to see you again. Bob . . . Hi, Bob: Perhaps I should not have vented on the above matter, but what can I say? I don't often do so and will likely not soon again. I only have 800 hours on the -4. Don't seem to do much local flying lately and haven't had time for many trips. Will be flying to Tucson in March and the route takes us right past Wichita. Maybe we could stop on one end of the trip or the other. Otherwise we could just fly out for a visit. Thank you for the invite. We look forward to it. Do not archive. Gordon ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 11:15:06 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Wiring Diagrams Design Software --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > >Bob, > >I have successfully used TurboCAD (versions 8 and 10) to import and use >.dwg files from your website. I've also picked up and used .dwg files >from other sites too, again without any problems. I did change some >text styles, line widths and shading/cross hatching to suite my own >drawing style, but the basic geometry import was good. TurboCAD can >read and write several other formats other than its own native .tcw >files. The ones of most interest to CAD users are probably .dwg >(AutoCAD) and .dxf (Drawing eXchange Format). > >TurboCAD is published by IMSI: http://www.imsisoft.com/ > >I am using it for the panel mechanical layout and electrical system >design. No financial interest in the company, just a satisfied user. Very good! Thank you for that input. There you go folks. $22 for a "real" CAD program and megabytes of plug-n-nearly-play work product. The guy advertising V10 on Ebay seems to have a lot of them. Goto http://ebay.com and search on 7208329279 Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 11:24:04 AM PST US From: G McNutt Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Close Proximity Air2Air Comm problem (HELP!) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: G McNutt Hi Mark FWIW, could you hook up and try using a hand-held radio to see how it would work during formation. If it works OK you might consider a #2 hand-held comm instead of spending $ on the Microair. George in Langley BC Fiveonepw@aol.com wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com > >Howdy all- > >After another frustrating couple of occasions trying to communicate with >fellow formators I MUST come up with some solution to this problem. Recap- >whenever closer than 300' (MOL) to other planes, transmissions from other planes are >typically very garbled & unreadable on my Microair 760. > > snip------------ ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 11:24:34 AM PST US From: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" (HELP!) Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Close Proximity Air2Air Comm problem (HELP!) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" (HELP!) Your idea of having a switchable rubber duckie antenna is probably the best way to go. Bury the rubber duck somewhere it gets poor reception. An alternative might be a 50 ohm resistor in whatever power rating your transmitter is rated, but then you won't get much reception at all, just your transmitter power will be reduced for the "other" guys' benefit. Light bulbs used to be popular, but they aren't very reliable and their resistance might change with heating or cooling. I would suggest a good quality VHF switch, though, and not just some ole toggle switch. If you go the cheap route, you mess up the impedance of the feedlines and you may find yourself not having good communications with the tower 40 miles out next time you need it. Take a look at the stuff MFJ Enterprises has. For instance: http://www.mfjenterprises.com/products.php?prodid=MFJ-1702C Maybe you could use an RF sensing switch that changes your antenna automatically between receive and transmit. This one comes to mind, although it is for switching 2 different radios to the same antenna, so I don't know if it would work the other way around: http://www.mfjenterprises.com/products.php?prodid=MFJ-1708 You could try calling MFJ Enterprises, ask to speak to their chief engineer, and ask them if they have something that would work. Describe your scenario as a VHF application with radios very close to each other, but don't mention the AIRxxxxx word. Regards, Dave Morris At 09:24 AM 1/3/2006, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com > >Howdy all- > >After another frustrating couple of occasions trying to communicate with >fellow formators I MUST come up with some solution to this problem. Recap- >whenever closer than 300' (MOL) to other planes, transmissions from other >planes are >typically very garbled & unreadable on my Microair 760. They can hear me >fine & radio works excellent at greater distances. Several listers here have >suggested BNC attenuators to resolve this, but most I've found are limited to >less than the output power of the 760 (about 5watts). See: > > http://www.smelectronics.us/bnc,fattenuators.htm > >A representative for JFW Industries claims to have a 50 ohm/5 watt unit at a >reasonable price ($45) that he claims will do what I need. Unfortunately, it >seems installing one of these "should" mitigate the formation problem, but >longer-range comm will suffer. I asked about a "switchable" unit. The >rep said >it's possible, but much pricier (custom job). > >Another A-lister suggested a microwave switch to bypass the attenuator when >not needed. > >Bob N. has offered to produce a kit to address the problem, but would have to >order circuit boards and put together parts lists, and could only do so if at >least 4 units were ordered. I haven't heard from anyone else having my >"problem", so that's likely a bust. (Bob- if you see this, is the unit >you allude >to similar to the "Active Attenuator for VHF-FM" suggested for fox hunts >shown >in the References section of the ARRL handbook? Mine is 78th edition (2001)- >unit is page 30.64) If my understanding of this unit is right, it works by >generating mixing products using an oscillator (requiring tuning reception to >off-frequency? Not sure how this works for transmitting) > >Microair tech support suggests the following: "The radio's operation is >normal. What you need is an antenna switch with a lower gain antenna for >these >situations. This should reduce the receiver sensitivity at the front end. >When >you aren't in formation or in close proximity to other aircraft, you >should be >able to switch back to your bent whip for greater sensitivity at the lower >end." > >Possible solution: I have a couple of Rubber Duckie antennas. I could mount >one of these to a BNC receptacle on the larger side of a dedicated metal box >(about 3"x3"x1") under my panel with the RD pointed toward the floor. A >short >RG400 patch cord from the 760 to the box, and the belly antenna RG400 to >another receptacle on the box. A SPDT switch also mounted to the box >would simply >connect either the RD or main antenna to the 760. (Fancier yet, make it a >DPDT feeding a lamp on my annunciator: "AUX ANT ON") If the proximity of >the RD >to panel stuff turned out to be a problem, it could be re-located somewhere >aft via a separate RG400, such as under the transverse seat back brace (RV-6A >tip-up). > >What say ye wise ones? > >Thanks for any suggestions or critique- I have GOTTA fix this! > >Mark Phillips - do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 11:34:50 AM PST US From: Steve Thomas Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Wiring Diagrams Design Software --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Steve Thomas Has anyone tried or used DesignWorks Lite? It is a circuit documentation program. The link is: http://www.capilano.com/html/dwml.html They have a version for both Mac and Windows and is free for 30 days, then $40 to register. I'd like to hear comments from anyone who might have used it. On Jan 3, 2006, at 8:51 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > I've had many requests for recommendations on software other > than the expensive AutoCAD for editing my drawings. I've just > ordered TurboCAD off Ebay (v10.2 for $26 post paid) and I'll > test it using the .dwg files off the website as source drawings. Steve Thomas SteveT.Net steve@stevet.net 805-569-0336 Office ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 11:55:02 AM PST US From: Fiveonepw@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Wiring Diagrams Design Software --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com Bob- are you also storing builders' wirebooks as references of completed designs? My entire system is on a series of R-14 generated dwgs and I'd be happy to "donate", space providing... I know of quite a few others (Kevin Horton for example) who did excellent work and offered theirs for perusal by other builders on their own websites. Mark Phillips - do not archive ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 01:04:55 PM PST US From: "Alan K. Adamson" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Close Proximity Air2Air Comm problem (HELP!) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alan K. Adamson" If you are *that* close, just get a "dummy load" from any of the ham stores (www.hamradio.com). Use it with the switch as Dave suggests. If you go to a "hamfest" around your area, you can probably pick one up with a BNC connector on it and some small fins to heat sink the RF wattage. Put it somewhere, even on a simply bulkhead so that it can dissipate the heat, set the switch and you are good to go. Just make sure you don't set the switch when you are transmitting, and also make sure it's on a real antenna when you are talking to ATC. A dummy load should be more than enough for close proximity work. Probably a radius of 500' or so. May even be better as you'll be "line of site" to most everyone. These are AM Transmitters, and if the filtering in them isn't very good, either the RX or the TX can cause this problem. BTW, A dummy load is better than a light bulb, the filament wont burn out and at least will protect the finals in your radio. Alan -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Morris "BigD" (HELP!) Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Close Proximity Air2Air Comm problem (HELP!) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" --> (HELP!) Your idea of having a switchable rubber duckie antenna is probably the best way to go. Bury the rubber duck somewhere it gets poor reception. An alternative might be a 50 ohm resistor in whatever power rating your transmitter is rated, but then you won't get much reception at all, just your transmitter power will be reduced for the "other" guys' benefit. Light bulbs used to be popular, but they aren't very reliable and their resistance might change with heating or cooling. I would suggest a good quality VHF switch, though, and not just some ole toggle switch. If you go the cheap route, you mess up the impedance of the feedlines and you may find yourself not having good communications with the tower 40 miles out next time you need it. Take a look at the stuff MFJ Enterprises has. For instance: http://www.mfjenterprises.com/products.php?prodid=MFJ-1702C Maybe you could use an RF sensing switch that changes your antenna automatically between receive and transmit. This one comes to mind, although it is for switching 2 different radios to the same antenna, so I don't know if it would work the other way around: http://www.mfjenterprises.com/products.php?prodid=MFJ-1708 You could try calling MFJ Enterprises, ask to speak to their chief engineer, and ask them if they have something that would work. Describe your scenario as a VHF application with radios very close to each other, but don't mention the AIRxxxxx word. Regards, Dave Morris At 09:24 AM 1/3/2006, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com > >Howdy all- > >After another frustrating couple of occasions trying to communicate >with fellow formators I MUST come up with some solution to this >problem. Recap- whenever closer than 300' (MOL) to other planes, >transmissions from other planes are typically very garbled & unreadable >on my Microair 760. They can hear me fine & radio works excellent at >greater distances. Several listers here have suggested BNC attenuators >to resolve this, but most I've found are limited to less than the >output power of the 760 (about 5watts). See: > > http://www.smelectronics.us/bnc,fattenuators.htm > >A representative for JFW Industries claims to have a 50 ohm/5 watt unit >at a reasonable price ($45) that he claims will do what I need. >Unfortunately, it seems installing one of these "should" mitigate the >formation problem, but longer-range comm will suffer. I asked about a >"switchable" unit. The rep said it's possible, but much pricier >(custom job). > >Another A-lister suggested a microwave switch to bypass the attenuator >when not needed. > >Bob N. has offered to produce a kit to address the problem, but would >have to order circuit boards and put together parts lists, and could >only do so if at least 4 units were ordered. I haven't heard from >anyone else having my "problem", so that's likely a bust. (Bob- if you >see this, is the unit you allude to similar to the "Active Attenuator >for VHF-FM" suggested for fox hunts shown in the References section of >the ARRL handbook? Mine is 78th edition (2001)- unit is page 30.64) >If my understanding of this unit is right, it works by generating >mixing products using an oscillator (requiring tuning reception to >off-frequency? Not sure how this works for transmitting) > >Microair tech support suggests the following: "The radio's operation >is normal. What you need is an antenna switch with a lower gain antenna >for these situations. This should reduce the receiver sensitivity at >the front end. >When >you aren't in formation or in close proximity to other aircraft, you >should be able to switch back to your bent whip for greater sensitivity >at the lower end." > >Possible solution: I have a couple of Rubber Duckie antennas. I could >mount one of these to a BNC receptacle on the larger side of a >dedicated metal box (about 3"x3"x1") under my panel with the RD pointed >toward the floor. A short RG400 patch cord from the 760 to the box, >and the belly antenna RG400 to another receptacle on the box. A SPDT >switch also mounted to the box would simply connect either the RD or >main antenna to the 760. (Fancier yet, make it a DPDT feeding a lamp >on my annunciator: "AUX ANT ON") If the proximity of the RD to panel >stuff turned out to be a problem, it could be re-located somewhere aft >via a separate RG400, such as under the transverse seat back brace >(RV-6A tip-up). > >What say ye wise ones? > >Thanks for any suggestions or critique- I have GOTTA fix this! > >Mark Phillips - do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 01:31:04 PM PST US From: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wiring Diagrams Design Software --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" After installing and trying many different ones and throwing them all out, I finally found DesignWorks Lite from Capilano Computing for $39.95. I bought it a few years ago and have never looked back. It works intuitively the way a CAD program should. You can design your own components if the switch or relay or gadget you need doesn't exist in one of their libraries. Here's a schematic I did with it: http://www.davemorris.com/Photos/Dragonfly%20Electrical/N75UP-Schematic-June2005.pdf Here's their web site: http://www.capilano.com/ I highly recommend it for ease of use in drawing schematics. They have a free trial. I think it's better than any of the other options I've heard people mention so far. Dave Morris At 10:04 PM 12/29/2005, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jerry Grimmonpre" > >Hi all ... >How many OBAM electricians have used the PC based software to draw their >wiring diagrams? >I'm interested in finding out what you have found and reccomend, don't >recomend, like alot or any comments about they are easy to use or not easy. >Or is all the PC based stuff a waste of time? >I see some on ebay, new ones, outdated programs, cheap and not one bidder >... why is that? >Any help appreciated ... thanks alot, >Jerry Grimmonpre' > > ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 02:11:53 PM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Instrument Panel Labels From: "Mark R Steitle" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark R Steitle" Ken, Do you have the p/n for the white on clear tape? I couldn't find it on the site given below. My panel is dark grey and white on clear would work great. Mark --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken Don't forget my favourite "white on clear tape" Looks good on my gray panel although the idea of doing more complex printer graphics in interesting. Ken Craig Payne wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" > >As a side note the labeling products like the Brother P-touch line offer >white-on-black tapes: > >http://www.brothermall.com/accessory_detail.asp?mscssid=8C857699C5A5478 88C58 >CEF27C70BD68&sku=TZ335&dept_id=167 > >Tapes of all colors are available in widths up to 3/4". The labelers can >"stack" lines across the width of the tape. > >Other color combinations offered are black-on-clear, black-on-white, >red-on-white, gold-on-black and black-on-yellow. > >-- Craig > > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 03:14:11 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Instrument Panel Labels --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" TZ135 is 1/2" white-on-clear, TZ145 is 3/4", I don't see a 1". You can order from the Brother site below but I don't think their prices are the best. If you are in a hurry Staples and OfficeMax stock some. http://www.advizia.com/brother/Advisor.asp?User=tapesacc&Advisor=Sub&CtgID=& Rnd=227 -- Craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark R Steitle Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Instrument Panel Labels --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark R Steitle" --> Ken, Do you have the p/n for the white on clear tape? I couldn't find it on the site given below. My panel is dark grey and white on clear would work great. Mark --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken Don't forget my favourite "white on clear tape" Looks good on my gray panel although the idea of doing more complex printer graphics in interesting. Ken Craig Payne wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" > >As a side note the labeling products like the Brother P-touch line offer >white-on-black tapes: > >http://www.brothermall.com/accessory_detail.asp?mscssid=8C857699C5A5478 88C58 >CEF27C70BD68&sku=TZ335&dept_id=167 > >Tapes of all colors are available in widths up to 3/4". The labelers can >"stack" lines across the width of the tape. > >Other color combinations offered are black-on-clear, black-on-white, >red-on-white, gold-on-black and black-on-yellow. > >-- Craig > > ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 04:11:43 PM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Wiring Diagrams Design Software From: "Dan Beadle" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Beadle" I don't see where SL12 goes from the crowbar. Is it supposed to be SL-5? There must be a breaker somewhere that kills the dynamo. SL-9 also is a dangling label. I assume there is a switch to ground to serve as the battery master. Sounds like you open that switch to kill the right main bus, then close the E-Bus feed. Seems like a DPDT might work better - up for normal, down for e-bus, center for OFF. (simpler pilot workload). -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Morris "BigD" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wiring Diagrams Design Software --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" After installing and trying many different ones and throwing them all out, I finally found DesignWorks Lite from Capilano Computing for $39.95. I bought it a few years ago and have never looked back. It works intuitively the way a CAD program should. You can design your own components if the switch or relay or gadget you need doesn't exist in one of their libraries. Here's a schematic I did with it: http://www.davemorris.com/Photos/Dragonfly%20Electrical/N75UP-Schematic- June2005.pdf Here's their web site: http://www.capilano.com/ I highly recommend it for ease of use in drawing schematics. They have a free trial. I think it's better than any of the other options I've heard people mention so far. Dave Morris At 10:04 PM 12/29/2005, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jerry Grimmonpre" > >Hi all ... >How many OBAM electricians have used the PC based software to draw their >wiring diagrams? >I'm interested in finding out what you have found and reccomend, don't >recomend, like alot or any comments about they are easy to use or not easy. >Or is all the PC based stuff a waste of time? >I see some on ebay, new ones, outdated programs, cheap and not one bidder >... why is that? >Any help appreciated ... thanks alot, >Jerry Grimmonpre' > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 04:35:46 PM PST US From: Ken Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Wiring Diagrams Design Software --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken Sweet! $16. for v10 plus $7. to mail to Canada which means no additional tax or brokerage and he takes VISA! And it looks an upgrade to v10.2 is available off the IMSI site. The A9cad freeware also views the Z figures just fine although I never figured out how to "connect" wires to terminals. I really like the Excel method but symbol building is slow and a bit flakey on my version . thanks Bob and Steve Ken Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > > > >>Bob, >> >>I have successfully used TurboCAD (versions 8 and 10) to import and use >>.dwg files from your website. I've also picked up and used .dwg files >> >> >>from other sites too, again without any problems. I did change some > > >>text styles, line widths and shading/cross hatching to suite my own >>drawing style, but the basic geometry import was good. TurboCAD can >>read and write several other formats other than its own native .tcw >>files. The ones of most interest to CAD users are probably .dwg >>(AutoCAD) and .dxf (Drawing eXchange Format). >> >>TurboCAD is published by IMSI: http://www.imsisoft.com/ >> >>I am using it for the panel mechanical layout and electrical system >>design. No financial interest in the company, just a satisfied user. >> >> > > Very good! Thank you for that input. There you go folks. $22 for a > "real" CAD program and megabytes of plug-n-nearly-play work product. > > The guy advertising V10 on Ebay seems to have a lot of them. Goto > http://ebay.com and search on 7208329279 > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 05:10:27 PM PST US From: "William Slaughter" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Wiring Diagrams Design Software --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "William Slaughter" I've had very good luck with QuickCad, which has now been acquired by AutoCad. It was about $100 at CompUSA, probably available cheaper online. I've imported and manipulated the dwg files without problems. William Slaughter -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Wiring Diagrams Design Software --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" --> At 07:32 PM 12/30/2005 -0800, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Burnaby" >--> > >I use TurboCAD v.7, for all kinds of designing and what-iffing. The >software will import common AutoCAD formats (.dxf, .dwg) and converts its >native format to these as well. I'm not an engineer, and I found >TurboCAD's learning curve easy to negotiate as a total CAD novice. It came >with a large library of electrical symbols or you can roll your own of >anything you can dream up. You can "group" individual components so that >they act like one entity (for moving, coloring, etc.) or you can "explode" >an entity so that you can modify an individual component. I find it all >easy to do. The program is a full blown 3-D CAD program and I've seen 3-D >renderings that accomplished users have done and they are truly amazing, >but I've never had a need to go there. The program is several versions >down the road from v. 7 by now, but I will not even approach the >capabilities of v.7 in my lifetime. I paid about $60-70 for mine, but v. >10.2 is advertised on-line for $49. >v 9.2 for $19.95. For the early days of aeroelectric.com, I attempted to keep all posted AutoCAD drawings in version 12 formats so that a variety of freeware and shareware cad programs (also posted on the website) would open, edit, save and print the drawings I generated. More recently, I had to forego the time it took to maintain the growing list of drawings and I dropped that service. I've had many requests for recommendations on software other than the expensive AutoCAD for editing my drawings. I've just ordered TurboCAD off Ebay (v10.2 for $26 post paid) and I'll test it using the .dwg files off the website as source drawings. If the tests prove successful, I'll post the results along with a recommendation for its use with files you can download from aeroelectric.com (including the complete symbol library and wirebooks in progress). For those interested in generating nice drawings for their diagrams, more than half the work is already done. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 05:24:58 PM PST US From: Charlie Kuss Matters.... Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Better List Conduct...Practical Matters.... --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss Matters.... I'm with Eric on this subject. I've learned an enormous amount from Bob. I have also learned from George. I note that Bob hasn't blown his top at George. Why? I'm sure it's because he wants George to contribute to the discussion. (Which he has done in the past). George occasionally is "less than polite", but he does add to the knowledge on this list. I try to remind myself that in the past, I've been guilty of boarish behavior on assorted lists myself. (Usually involved late night drinking) I've got feet of clay and simply want to learn. Let's keep the discussions on track. My 2 cents. FYI GMC in gmcjetpilot relates to George's initials, not his place of employment. I've contacted George off list a number of times. He was happy to let me know who he was. His "on list" reticence relates to getting spammed, which is understandable in my mind. Charlie Kuss do not archive >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" > >Guys.... > >All this stuff looks like a yellow sh*t storm to me. I actually take some >iconoclastic guilty pleasure from seeing George lambaste Bob, and Bob recite >his experience and around and around it goes. > >The college I went to tossed me out with a degree when they discovered that >my barely post-pubescent head was a full as they could stuff it. A degree, >like a pilot's certificate is only a license to learn more stuff. Pity the >graduate or the pilot who stops learning...and there are many. > >I actually (at times) do measure people by their degrees, but I make >distinctions between Eastern US versus Western US versus European and every >kind and type of farm college, military, technical school and people who >have tattoos. But it's a waste of time. > >My New Year's Wishes: > >I would like to see personalities kept out of the discussion. I would like >to see Bob N. not waste his time defending himself (his good works are >plentifully abundant and apparent). I would like to see AeroElectric Listers >eschew invective, and refrain from personal attacks OR personal adoration >(except for obituaries perhaps). If we have to see Bob's resume one more >time perhaps we should post OUR resumes. Then what a bore we all will be. > >Personalities should never be the issue here. We are all good and bad some >times. > >Regards, >Eric M. Jones >www.PerihelionDesign.com >113 Brentwood Drive >Southbridge MA 01550-2705 >(508) 764-2072 > >"The problem with the world is that only the intelligent people want to be >smarter, and only the good people want to improve." > - Eolake Stobblehouse > > ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 06:22:34 PM PST US From: "Peter Laurence" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Better List Conduct...Practical Matters.... --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Peter Laurence" Charlie, I hear and understand what you are saying. However, George was WAY out of line on his diatribe, period. See you Saturday. Peter Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie Kuss Matters.... Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Better List Conduct...Practical Matters.... --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss Matters.... I'm with Eric on this subject. I've learned an enormous amount from Bob. I have also learned from George. I note that Bob hasn't blown his top at George. Why? I'm sure it's because he wants George to contribute to the discussion. (Which he has done in the past). George occasionally is "less than polite", but he does add to the knowledge on this list. I try to remind myself that in the past, I've been guilty of boarish behavior on assorted lists myself. (Usually involved late night drinking) I've got feet of clay and simply want to learn. Let's keep the discussions on track. My 2 cents. FYI GMC in gmcjetpilot relates to George's initials, not his place of employment. I've contacted George off list a number of times. He was happy to let me know who he was. His "on list" reticence relates to getting spammed, which is understandable in my mind. Charlie Kuss do not archive >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" > >Guys.... > >All this stuff looks like a yellow sh*t storm to me. I actually take some >iconoclastic guilty pleasure from seeing George lambaste Bob, and Bob recite >his experience and around and around it goes. > >The college I went to tossed me out with a degree when they discovered that >my barely post-pubescent head was a full as they could stuff it. A degree, >like a pilot's certificate is only a license to learn more stuff. Pity the >graduate or the pilot who stops learning...and there are many. > >I actually (at times) do measure people by their degrees, but I make >distinctions between Eastern US versus Western US versus European and every >kind and type of farm college, military, technical school and people who >have tattoos. But it's a waste of time. > >My New Year's Wishes: > >I would like to see personalities kept out of the discussion. I would like >to see Bob N. not waste his time defending himself (his good works are >plentifully abundant and apparent). I would like to see AeroElectric Listers >eschew invective, and refrain from personal attacks OR personal adoration >(except for obituaries perhaps). If we have to see Bob's resume one more >time perhaps we should post OUR resumes. Then what a bore we all will be. > >Personalities should never be the issue here. We are all good and bad some >times. > >Regards, >Eric M. Jones >www.PerihelionDesign.com >113 Brentwood Drive >Southbridge MA 01550-2705 >(508) 764-2072 > >"The problem with the world is that only the intelligent people want to be >smarter, and only the good people want to improve." > - Eolake Stobblehouse > > ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 06:47:09 PM PST US From: Charlie Kuss Subject: AeroElectric-List: Heat sink for Schottky diode --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss Listers, Someone asked about a source for a heat sink for the Schottky diodes sold by Eric Jones of Perihelion Design. RV builder Scott Chastain turned me on to a nice heat sink made specifically for this diode. Scott told me he got his from Radio Shack. I got mine from Mouser Electronics. It's part number 567-680-125A This heat sink is made by Wakefield Thermal Solutions. You can find it here http://www.mouser.com/index.cfm?&handler=data.listcategory&D=*567680125A*&terms=567-680-125A&Ntt=*567680125A*&Dk=1&Ns=SField&N=0&crc=true Charlie Kuss ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 07:23:20 PM PST US From: "bob noffs" Subject: AeroElectric-List: was noise --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "bob noffs" hi bob, want to thank you for the input regarding turn coor. noise showing up in my intercom. i already own the turn coor. so that is what i will work with. you are right, i have a great layout for my panel and now am encouraged to go with it as is and if i am unlucky i will deal with a fix then. bob noffs ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 07:47:16 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Heat sink for Schottky diode --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" Slightly backwards. The "TO-3" transistor case has existed for decades. The diode sold by Eric was designed to use the same footprint as a TO-3 case. *Any* heat sink designed for a TO-3 case will (by design) work with the diode. Unfortunately the only heat sinks I can find on Radio Shack's web site are for the TO-220 case which is quite different from the TO-3 case. Digikey certainly has heat sinks for the TO-3 footprint. Go to the link below to see 51 matches for "heat sink to-3": http://www.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Criteria?Ref=346699&Site=U S&Cat=32506655 The other question is if you desire to electrically isolate the diode's "back" from the heat sink. This is only needed for large heat sinks. A small heat sink can easily be mechanically supported by the screws which fastens the diode to the heat sink. In a larger heat sink you either electrically isolate the heat sink from the main chassis or (better) isolate the chip's case from the heat sink. The second approach leaves less exposed metal around with a voltage on it. Electrical isolation is done with thin plates placed between the chip and the heat sink. In the old days the plate was mica. Heat sink "grease" is used to ensure a good thermal bond between all the layers. There are newer insulators that don't require the grease. If you are using metal nuts and screws to bolt the chip down then you need special non-conducting shoulder washers to keep the nuts and screws from forming electrical contact between the chip's case and the heat sink. That is more than you ever wanted to know about heat sinks. I will stop rambling now. -- Craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie Kuss Subject: AeroElectric-List: Heat sink for Schottky diode --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss --> Listers, Someone asked about a source for a heat sink for the Schottky diodes sold by Eric Jones of Perihelion Design. RV builder Scott Chastain turned me on to a nice heat sink made specifically for this diode. Scott told me he got his from Radio Shack. I got mine from Mouser Electronics. It's part number 567-680-125A This heat sink is made by Wakefield Thermal Solutions. You can find it here http://www.mouser.com/index.cfm?&handler=data.listcategory&D=*567680125A*&te rms=567-680-125A&Ntt=*567680125A*&Dk=1&Ns=SField&N=0&crc=true Charlie Kuss ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 09:18:47 PM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: The Duplicitous Copy of my letter to Niagara --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: The whole NIAGARA letter is really a thinly valid attempt to discredit the company, not a quest for knowledge or understanding. To be honest I find you writing the competition and posing as a Quote: Hobbyist, to be of questionable ethics, since you are associated with B&C. WHY? Why do you care? Is an ego thing with you? Give it a break!! FOLKS THESE ARE BOBS WORDS: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Alternator_Failures.pdf *For years and since day-one of my participation in B&Cs development and marketing of alternators, we have preached the doctrine of externally regulated alternators. Examples of this philosophy are found though out early writings and particularly in chapters on alternators in the Connection. A simple inspection of B&Cs offerings from the beginning will show that only externally regulated alternators are offered.* WORDS like in the beginning and Doctrine sounds like the Bible. Bob I think has a complex. Bob goes on to offer up foggy ANECDOTES, which is nothing but sensational propaganda with NO FACTS!!!. This is very unlike an engineer. Facts not anecdotes. This is the word according to BOB and all shall agree or be attacked by the PARADIGM, what ever he means by paradigm. You are being duplicitous when you write Niagara and do not identify yourself as a B&C associate. You have NO desire to learn from Niagara and only want to mock them. No matter what their reply is you will nit pick, attack and criticize, which you already did anyway. Leave Niagara out of it. WE GET IT. THE WORDS ARE NOT Precise. You could write it much better. OK, You win. STICK TO B&C and internally regulated alternators and just leave the internal regulated alternators and Niagara alone. FYI: By the way JIM does not work at Niagara anymore, he was a consultant. No doubt a dumb engineer. The owner is in Florida for the winter, give them a call, I did. No I dont work for them and have no affiliation what so ever except I have one of their great alternator kits. HE SAID HE'S WAS AN ENGINEER LETS LYNCH HIM!!!!! First I NEVER mentioned my degrees to put BOB down. I only mentioned it because BOB was making up stuff a while back and coming off as an engineer. I thought Bob was and engineer. As an engineer I was MYSTIFIED that Bob said what he did, so I asked, Bob do you have a degree in engineering. He said no and that he didnt think much of Engineers!!!!!!! End of story. But now he is saying he is an engineer. GO FIGURE. I have dealt with mechanics and electricians before, 1000s of times, and most of the time it is mutual respect, but on occasion you run into geniuses like Bob who know everything. Really he does. I have HUGE respect for most of what Bob has done for the experimental community. Sure some one with out a degree could apply engineering principles, advanced math to problem solve and invent, but with out the judgment combined with the education the results could be in great error. This is where Bob gets in trouble by the way. He knows just enough to get in trouble. Bob is arrogant to tell off people with more experience & education while refusing to admit his lack of understanding. Adding insult, Bob throws out a bunch of big sound engineering words (incorrectly). I am not talking about me BTW. Bob gets into pissing matches with everyone in the industry and respects NO one (that disagrees) and assumes you're (in his words) IGNORANT. Now what is my problem? The problem I have with Bob is he demeans the profession of engineering, implies that math (advanced math) is not useful and that some how Votech grads are on par with those of MIT or any other full university. This is just stupid and child like. May be Raytheon is not the place to work and they have a hard time getting people to work there? It kind of makes me mad. It takes 5 full years of a very demanding curriculum to get a Bachelor degree in engineering. People who drop out and cant hack it are the ones who are bitter. Bob says he could not go to college because he had a family? Sound like a good excuse. I choose not to have a family till later and suffer 5 years of poverty as a starving college student. I was poor and worked in a shipyard as fitter for 1.5 years to pay for school and continued to work throughout my undergrad work as a buss boy, waiter and mechanic. I paid for 100% of my education, graduating on the deans list. A 1year assoc degree in what ever does not compare. Anyone who drops out of school and than ridicules people with degrees is a petty person. I don't think Bob said that but a few of you did, and you know who you are and should be ashamed of yourself. In typical hypocritical fashion on one hand Bob puts down engineers in general and than adapts or co-ops the title of Engineer. Bob claims to have used engineering analysis, but miss uses engineering terms and concepts all the time. When pointed out Bob goes into arrogant attack mode. When asked for the data he never responds, while demanding PROOF from all others. This is extremely frustrating. When cornered Bob uses words like paradigm and Failure Effects Analysis. OK, wow impressive! What does that mean Bob? Heard that at a meeting once? Lets see your FEA analysis/data. Your audience is smart enough to understand it, lets see it. I DON'T WANT TO PLAY, I'M TAKING MY BALL HOME When Van made the statement on his site they would not warranty the alternators he sold if an OV module was used; Bob acted like a child. Bob: I AM NOT RECOMMENDING INTERNAL REGULATED ALTERNATORS ANY MORE!!! AND TAKING THEM OUT OF MY BOOK NEXT REVISION. (In retaliation he makes this edict!!! Like Van gives a damn what he thinks. They sell 1000s of their alternators and so does Niagara, who has sold I-VR ND alternators for almost 10 years with NO RETURNS or problems.) This reminded me of a child taking his ball because he is mad and does not want to play anymore. Go and take your Book and recommendations and be done with it. WE GET IT. DONT USE INTERNALLY REGULATED ALTERNATORS. The thing that kills you Bob is people dont listen to your every word. I am afraid to say but there will be more I-VR alternators flying with out Bobs blessing. DONT TELL ME THE FAA WILL NOT certify an I-VR. I dont care. First we fly experimental aircrarft second The FAA will not certify Bobs hidden fuse box either, so I am good company. For those who follow the word according to Bob, fine, I think that is GREAT!! You will have good results, heavy, complicated results, but good results. Like all system designers they loose the big picture. The plane has to fly and weight, cost, build time are all factors. STICK WITH WHAT YOU KNOW If Bob would just stick to basic DC circuits (class 101) and the Doctrine, use externally regulated alternators with crow bars. If you avoid implying your engineering credentials, ability to do engineering analysis to support your claims, I would be happy. 75% of your rap is opinion, not fact, which is fine. The other 25% is ...... That is all. Bob, be the teacher of basic DC circuits 101. Also promote the use of B&C products, your BOOK and external regulated alternators ONLY. Just be consistant and stop with the smoke and mirrors. The only problem with external regulated alternators are there are NONE available**, while there are fantastic ND alternators with internal VRs to be had, which work well. You on the other had have single handily spread more rumors and innuendos about I-VR than anyone on the web, while bold face saying, WHO ME, no I support internal regulation, some of my customers have them. READ your own words (doctrine from the beginning) Bob. You don't support I-VR, or do you? MAKE YOUR MIND UP. ** B&C is out of their minds with what they charge. I dont care if Bob has a degree; you cant do much damage with DC power distribution circuits, since this was figured out 150 years ago (battery-wire- switch-wire-light-ground). Anything he has wrote has been said before, but agree his book is very useful text for amateur aircraft builders, even if there is nothing new there. The crow bar by the way has been done before, which Bob admits. The B&C voltage regulator is just the same old same old $10 VR in a $250 package with a crow bar. That is all I have to say about Niagara and Bob. PS the only reason Niagara offers an OV module it because people who listen to Bob ask for it. To please customers they offer this certified device add on, which cost a fortune. Their recommendation is NOT to use an OV module and they dont sell many OV modules. If you want a crow-bar or OV module consider using an externally regulated alternator, that is what the OV modules are for. Adding the OV module on top of a ND alternator with an I-VR is adding weight, parts and complexity at best, potentially asking for problems when the I-VR clashes with the OV module at worse. --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 09:24:36 PM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: what is an engineer, flame suit technology --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Wow, nice flame job. I had my nomex and asbestos underwear on and still my short curly hairs got singed. It was more flame than the Space Shuttle on re-entry. For those with all the personal attacks and conjecture about me, that says more about you than I. Its no doubt typical you run your mouth with out knowing any facts. Ironic and hypocritical you do what you claim of me. LOL Let me just say I have no desire to defend myself from stupid attacks with zero merit, but I will say although I fly for a living now, I get several unsolicited calls a year for engineering consulting work, all over the US, Europe, Asia and South America. My last full engineering contract was about 8 years ago, earning me about $150,000, to sign off a B767 freighter modification. It pays to go to school. hahaha So say what you want, I am laughing my way to the bank. Let me explain what a PE (professional engineer) is. First the PE license is really only for engineers in Public works, like buildings and bridges. States require the PE license to sign off drawings for public works. Also it is true you can get a PE (professional Engineer license) with out a degree. You do that by first taking the EIT exam (Engineer in Training) and having work experience. Than take the PE eaxm. Chances of passing the exams with out schoolwork, is low. This is like Law school and being a Lawyer. You don't need to go to law school to be a lawyer; you only need to pass the Bar exam, but without school the chance of passing is nil. Also the chance a corporation or law firm will hire you as a Lawyer, with out the sheepskin, is slim. However in aerospace, working for a corporation a PE license is NOT needed, common or required, but large corporations with out exception do require a degree in engineering to be hired as an engineer. I only got a PE because I do aerospace consulting as an individual, outside the corporate umbrella. In fact what ever Bob does at Raytheon is not directly related to final approval of the engineering definition of a component. An engineer signs off what ever Bob does, one with a degree and likely a DER (designated engineer representative). A DER is assigned by the FAA to act on their behalf. Bob is not a DER and if he was it would be an oddity. What is an engineer? Let me give you an aerospace example, but this is similar to building a bridge, dam, road or skyscraper. The B777 was designed by engineers: Mechanical, structural, electrical, chemical, aerodynamics, metallurgical, materials, textile, manufacturing and process engineers. How do they do their job? By and large the application of advance mathematics, science and engineering principles. Of course FAR's are involved. The structural engineer uses FEM, finite element analysis. The Aerodynamisist uses CFD, computational fluid dynamics/wind tunnel. This requires very math intensive calculations. The electrical engineer? Well look power distribution systems are OLD news; the leading edge is in digital controls and fly by wire. The ART of AC or DC power distribution has not changed much since the B707. OK. You don't need to be an engineer to figure out a DC or AC system, I will admit. However the electrical engineers are using advance mathematics and a large body of knowledge in digital control and feed back to innovate and develop new technologies, not just rehashing the same old principles. Obviously the EFIS, FMC (Flt management computers), INS (inertial nav system) and fly by wire technologies come to mind; however these are not really new anymore. What and where will the next innovations come from? ENGINEERS. Chance is it will not be a kid from a Votech school that knows the bench as Bob says. OK. Not a put down just a fact. We need to admire the academic achievement and not scorn and ridicule it. I find the people who do this are ones who could not cut it in school or are just plan ignorant. Not everyone can be a self made man like Bob, no doubt he is much smarter than I am and most Engineers or manager at Raytheon. When I was in the field or factory, I worked with 100's of mechanics and electricians (spark chasers as they like to be called) and have huge respect and a great relation with most, but some should not have been within 100 yard of a dog house much less a jet aircraft or spacecraft. Look the engineers who invented the solid state transistors where college (MIT) educated. The level of technology we are at in the world now requires advanced degrees, agree or not, that is my opinion. The sad fact is bone heads that discount the value of education is one reason the US is loosing the lead in the world. Now not everyone needs to invent the transistor. Look at Bob, he has not invented anything. Everything, including the crow bar, been done before, but he did put it all in a book, which is handy. Not having a degree takes nothing away from that. The technical guys who comes up with applications that use transistors are also clever and needed just as much at the inventor of the transistor itself, but to achieve breakthroughs requires technical chops and education. We will not achieve technical lead in the world thru the Votech's. I hope that clears up what an engineer is. I understand the average person does not grasp what an engineer is because of the level of math and science. Think of engineers as problem solvers or practical physicist/scientist for society. Engineers are involved in almost every product you touch every day from toaster, car, TV to a package at the grocery store and the machine that packed it. Engineers are more than the wiring in your homebuilt. Bob is a special case and his vast experience working on planes is a great education equivalent to and much better than a degree. OK I said it Bob's great long live the king. Buy his book go to his class you will learn. Geeeeeeee Cheers George --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 09:46:31 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: The Duplicitous Copy of my letter to Niagara --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" Vvvvvvvvvvv joke vvvvvvvvvvv joke vvvvvvvvvvvv joke vvvvvvvvvvv joke vvvvvvvvvvvv joke By God, he's right! Bob has a hidden agenda, he's in it for the money. No wonder he spends a good chunk of the day answering questions on this list. He is trying to steer business to a company that he has no financial interest in! No, wait B&C is just a front for (wait for it) Bob! I've been so blind. joke joke joke joke joke It's a joke, can't be to careful the days. By the way, GM - what's on your agenda? (not a joke) -- GM masquerading as Bob masquerading as Craig