---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 01/10/06: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:50 AM - Re: ELT Antenna Length (Bill Denton) 2. 06:49 AM - Re: Load Analysis (Bret Smith) 3. 07:04 AM - Re: E-Bus Avionics Switch ? (Fiveonepw@aol.com) 4. 07:23 AM - Re: ELT Antenna Length (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 08:39 AM - Re: ELT Antenna Length (Jerry Grimmonpre) 6. 08:47 AM - Re: ELT Antenna Length (Tinne maha) 7. 08:59 AM - Re: Re: ELT Antenna Length (BobsV35B@aol.com) 8. 09:16 AM - Re: Re: ELT Antenna Length (David Lloyd) 9. 09:47 AM - Re: Re: ELT Antenna Length (Matt Prather) 10. 11:23 AM - Re: Re: ELT Antenna Length (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 11. 05:19 PM - AOA audio Input To Intercom (Gerry Clabots) 12. 05:29 PM - Revised Load Analysis (Dennis Johnson) 13. 06:15 PM - Re: AOA audio Input To Intercom (Bill Hibbing) 14. 06:50 PM - Re: AOA audio Input To Intercom (John Schroeder) 15. 08:15 PM - Re: Re: ELT Antenna Length (William) 16. 09:21 PM - Re: Re: ELT (Dave Morris \) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:50:32 AM PST US From: "Bill Denton" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: ELT Antenna Length --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Denton" Just a thought... While the various ELT antenna solutions that have been presented are fine for 121.5 MHz units, would they also work for the 121.5/406 MHz units that use a "combined" antenna, such as the Artex ME406? -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ELT Antenna Length --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 10:15 AM 1/9/2006 -0800, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tinne maha" > >I know this is a dumb question, but I think it would be dummer for me not to >ask: In order for it to fit in what I believe to be the best location, I >need to shorten my ELT antenna from 21 inches to 19-3/8 inches. Will that >adversely affect performance? Another location will be very difficult. Can >anyone suggest another solution? I did some tests on a bizjet installation where we substituted a "rubber-duck" of a VHF-Comm hand-held for a full sized 21 inch antenna. Differences in gain and pattern were barely discernable. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:49:30 AM PST US From: "Bret Smith" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Load Analysis --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bret Smith" Dennis, Looks good. I plan to put the Fuel Boost Pump on the Battery Bus though. I will be putting the Transponder and Encoder and your Chelton display #2 on the Main bus and free up some amps on the Endurance bus. The E-Bus should only have the basic instruments to help you get safely on the ground. Just my .02 cents Do Not Archive Bret ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Johnson" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Load Analysis > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dennis Johnson" > > Greetings, > > This month is wiring month for my Lancair Legacy. My preliminary load analysis for each electrical bus is presented for review and comment. Composite airplane, engine in front, 75 amp main alternator, SD-8 aux alternator, single battery, Z-13/8 all electric on a budget with overweight E-Bus. Chelton Sport glass cockpit with backups for airspeed, altimeter, and electric attitude indicator (TruTrak ADI). IFR and night flights anticipated. The "Typ Amps" represents the typical continuous current in cruise flight. > > I'm curious if anyone has comments regarding which components are on each bus. > > Battery Bus Load Analysis > Fuse > Typ Amps > > > Baggage area dome light > 5 > 1-2 > > Clock > 1 > - > > Panel flood lights > 3 > .5 > > Map lights > 3 > .5 > > Electronic ignition > 5 > 2 > > Alternate feed to E bus > 20 > - > > Total Battery Bus Loads > > 4-5 amps > > > E-Bus Load Analysis > Fuse > Typ Amps > > > Elevator trim servo > 1 > - > > Roll & yaw trim servos > 2 > - > > Transponder & altitude encoder > 3 > 1.5 > > Audio panel & headsets > 2 > .4 > > Gear down lights & O2 regulators > 1 > - > > Engine info system (GRT) > 3 > .2 > > Com radio > 5 > .3 (3.2 max) > > Autopilot > 5 > .5 (2.5 max) > > Instrument panel lights > 1 > .2 > > Chelton display #1 > 5 > 2.5 > > Chelton display #2 > 5 > 2.5 > > Attitude/heading ref system > 2 > .2 > > > Total E-Bus Loads > > 9 (14 max) > > > Other Loads > > > Hydraulic pump for landing gear > 40ANL > - > > Main alternator field C.B. > 5 > - > > Auxiliary alternator field C.B. > 5 > - > > > Main Bus Load Analysis > Fuse > Typ Amps > > > Angle of attack indicator > 1 > .2 > > Fuel boost pump > 10 > - > > VOR receiver > 2 > 1 > > Wingtip position lights (LEDs) > ? > ? > > Wingtip strobe lights > ? > ? > > Wing flaps motor > 7 > - > > Taxi light > 7 > - > > Landing light > 7 > - > > > Pitot heat > 30 > - (11 in use) > > Avionics cooling fan > 3 > .5 > > Cockpit electric heat > 15 > - (10 in use) > > Backup electric attitude indicator > ? > ? > > > Normal feed to E-Bus > 20 > 9 (14 max) > > > Total Main Bus Loads > > 16 (42 max) > > > Best, > > Dennis Johnson > > Lancair Legacy wiring this month > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:04:33 AM PST US From: Fiveonepw@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: E-Bus Avionics Switch ? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com In a message dated 1/9/06 9:27:42 PM Central Standard Time, billschlatterer@sbcglobal.net writes: > what would the downsides > be of adding a S704 contactor between the D25 and E-Bus so that you > effectively used the whole E-bus as an Avionics bus. >>>> Wouldn't a simple SPST switch of the proper rating be simpler and more reliable? You'd still have to remember to shut it off at shutdown or check it prior to turning on master, but this would apply to the contactor as well, I assume... Mark ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:23:34 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: ELT Antenna Length --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 07:48 AM 1/10/2006 -0600, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Denton" > >Just a thought... > >While the various ELT antenna solutions that have been presented are fine >for 121.5 MHz units, would they also work for the 121.5/406 MHz units that >use a "combined" antenna, such as the Artex ME406? No . . . multi-frequency antennas use combinations of features that maximize performance in two or more frequencies. Generally speaking, ALL components have some effect at ALL frequencies of interest . . . so fiddling with components having major effects at 121.5 is likely to affect 406 performance. Techniques we use to shorten or broadband single frequency antennas are likely to hose other frequencies in multi-frequency antennas. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:39:25 AM PST US From: "Jerry Grimmonpre" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ELT Antenna Length --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jerry Grimmonpre" DO NOT ARCHIVE Two antennas met on a roof, fell in love and got married. The ceremony wasn't much, but the reception was superb. Jerry Grimmonpre' ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:47:00 AM PST US From: "Tinne maha" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: ELT Antenna Length --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tinne maha" Bob et al, I'm trying to mount the antenna inside the airfoiled section of my vertical stabilizer, just above my ELT. The wood ribs on the vertical stabilizer are oriented horizontally. It is a tube & fabric airplane with the vertical stabilizer already covered. The fuselage is not yet covered. I want to mount the base of the antenna in the fuselage & extend the antenna up into the already covered portion of the vert stab. The antenna that came with my ELT has a ~3" high rubber cone at the base out of which extends about 18 more inches of small diameter metal rod. I drilled small holes in the bottom two ribs of the stabilizer, but the third one I can't reach with a drill bit. So I got the hair brained idea of just cutting off ~1.5 inches of the antenna. I'm open to any suggestions, but moving the location of the antenna is highly UN desirable to me I read the post about using a 'rubber ducky' antenna, but have no idea what one is & can't find any reference in the A/C Spruce catalog. Thanks for the attention already given, Grant Time: 07:21:43 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ELT Antenna Length --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Grant, Is this antenna "inside" or does it mount out in the breeze? Bob . . . At 12:01 PM 1/9/2006 -0800, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Lloyd" > > >Grant, >If you were able to add a "loading" coil to the antenna correctly, this >would allow you to shorten the current antenna. You would need a guru type >friend that knew antennas to accomplish this for you. However, I would bet >that a search of the web via Google would find a manufacturer that makes >the >"loaded" antennas for the frequency that you need. >David > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Tinne maha" >To: >Subject: AeroElectric-List: ELT Antenna Length > > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tinne maha" > > > > > > I know this is a dumb question, but I think it would be dummer for me >not > > to > > ask: In order for it to fit in what I believe to be the best location, I > > need to shorten my ELT antenna from 21 inches to 19-3/8 inches. Will >that > > adversely affect performance? Another location will be very difficult. > > Can > > anyone suggest another solution? > > > > Thanks, > > Grant ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:59:32 AM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: ELT Antenna Length --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com In a message dated 1/10/2006 10:48:31 A.M. Central Standard Time, tinnemaha@hotmail.com writes: The antenna that came with my ELT has a ~3" high rubber cone at the base out of which extends about 18 more inches of small diameter metal rod. I drilled small holes in the bottom two ribs of the stabilizer, but the third one I can't reach with a drill bit. So I got the hair brained idea of just cutting off ~1.5 inches of the antenna. Good Morning Grant, Have you tried brazing the drill bit to a length of welding rod? That is a relatively simple way to get a very long drill. Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8503 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:16:41 AM PST US From: "David Lloyd" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: ELT Antenna Length --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Lloyd" Can't you locate or make an extra long drill bit to bore the last hole by welding on a bit extension? I would not advise cutting the antenna especially if it is a dual frequency antenna as Bob described. Something else to consider. In a crash, and especially an upset, you want that antenna to survive. If the vertical stab is heavily damaged or torn away, will the antenna remain intact? I have wondered about a method to install 2 ELT antenna's. One on top and one on the bottom for the situation where one gets heavily damaged or scraped off. But, the interface to two antennas with a single transmitter is beyond my understanding concerning the impedance matching problems with 1 or 2 surviving antennas. I have also wondered about installing 2 ELT's with separate antennas, each in a different location hoping that one or both survive. But, then there is the problem of them both being activated and how that double transmission on the same frequency(s) would effect the folks that are trying to locate you. David ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tinne maha" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: ELT Antenna Length > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tinne maha" > > > Bob et al, > > I'm trying to mount the antenna inside the airfoiled section of my > vertical > stabilizer, just above my ELT. The wood ribs on the vertical stabilizer > are > oriented horizontally. It is a tube & fabric airplane with the vertical > stabilizer already covered. The fuselage is not yet covered. I want to > mount the base of the antenna in the fuselage & extend the antenna up into > the already covered portion of the vert stab. > The antenna that came with my ELT has a ~3" high rubber cone at the base > out > of which extends about 18 more inches of small diameter metal rod. I > drilled small holes in the bottom two ribs of the stabilizer, but the > third > one I can't reach with a drill bit. So I got the hair brained idea of > just > cutting off ~1.5 inches of the antenna. > I'm open to any suggestions, but moving the location of the antenna is > highly UN desirable to me > I read the post about using a 'rubber ducky' antenna, but have no idea > what > one is & can't find any reference in the A/C Spruce catalog. > > Thanks for the attention already given, > Grant > > > Time: 07:21:43 PM PST US > From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ELT Antenna Length > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > > Grant, > > Is this antenna "inside" or does it mount out in the breeze? > > Bob . . . > > At 12:01 PM 1/9/2006 -0800, you wrote: > >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Lloyd" >> >> >>Grant, >>If you were able to add a "loading" coil to the antenna correctly, this >>would allow you to shorten the current antenna. You would need a guru >>type >>friend that knew antennas to accomplish this for you. However, I would >>bet >>that a search of the web via Google would find a manufacturer that makes >>the >>"loaded" antennas for the frequency that you need. >>David >> >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Tinne maha" >>To: >>Subject: AeroElectric-List: ELT Antenna Length >> >> >> > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tinne maha" >> > >> > >> > I know this is a dumb question, but I think it would be dummer for me >>not >> > to >> > ask: In order for it to fit in what I believe to be the best location, >> > I >> > need to shorten my ELT antenna from 21 inches to 19-3/8 inches. Will >>that >> > adversely affect performance? Another location will be very difficult. >> > Can >> > anyone suggest another solution? >> > >> > Thanks, >> > Grant > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:47:50 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: ELT Antenna Length From: "Matt Prather" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" Maybe have a look at this.. http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/vertex_antenna.php Regards, Matt- > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tinne maha" > > > Bob et al, > > I'm trying to mount the antenna inside the airfoiled section of my > vertical stabilizer, just above my ELT. The wood ribs on the vertical > stabilizer are oriented horizontally. It is a tube & fabric airplane > with the vertical stabilizer already covered. The fuselage is not yet > covered. I want to mount the base of the antenna in the fuselage & > extend the antenna up into the already covered portion of the vert > stab. > The antenna that came with my ELT has a ~3" high rubber cone at the base > out of which extends about 18 more inches of small diameter metal rod. > I drilled small holes in the bottom two ribs of the stabilizer, but the > third one I can't reach with a drill bit. So I got the hair brained > idea of just cutting off ~1.5 inches of the antenna. > I'm open to any suggestions, but moving the location of the antenna is > highly UN desirable to me > I read the post about using a 'rubber ducky' antenna, but have no idea > what one is & can't find any reference in the A/C Spruce catalog. > > Thanks for the attention already given, > Grant > > > Time: 07:21:43 PM PST US > From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ELT Antenna Length > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > > Grant, > > Is this antenna "inside" or does it mount out in the breeze? > > Bob . . . > > At 12:01 PM 1/9/2006 -0800, you wrote: > >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Lloyd" >> >> >>Grant, >>If you were able to add a "loading" coil to the antenna correctly, this >> would allow you to shorten the current antenna. You would need a guru >> type friend that knew antennas to accomplish this for you. However, I >> would bet that a search of the web via Google would find a manufacturer >> that makes the >>"loaded" antennas for the frequency that you need. >>David >> >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Tinne maha" >>To: >>Subject: AeroElectric-List: ELT Antenna Length >> >> >> > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tinne maha" >> > >> > >> > I know this is a dumb question, but I think it would be dummer for >> me >>not >> > to >> > ask: In order for it to fit in what I believe to be the best >> location, I need to shorten my ELT antenna from 21 inches to 19-3/8 >> inches. Will >>that >> > adversely affect performance? Another location will be very >> difficult. Can >> > anyone suggest another solution? >> > >> > Thanks, >> > Grant > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:23:55 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: ELT Antenna Length --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 08:46 AM 1/10/2006 -0800, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tinne maha" > >Bob et al, > >I'm trying to mount the antenna inside the airfoiled section of my vertical >stabilizer, just above my ELT. The wood ribs on the vertical stabilizer are >oriented horizontally. It is a tube & fabric airplane with the vertical >stabilizer already covered. The fuselage is not yet covered. I want to >mount the base of the antenna in the fuselage & extend the antenna up into >the already covered portion of the vert stab. >The antenna that came with my ELT has a ~3" high rubber cone at the base out >of which extends about 18 more inches of small diameter metal rod. I >drilled small holes in the bottom two ribs of the stabilizer, but the third >one I can't reach with a drill bit. So I got the hair brained idea of just >cutting off ~1.5 inches of the antenna. >I'm open to any suggestions, but moving the location of the antenna is >highly UN desirable to me >I read the post about using a 'rubber ducky' antenna, but have no idea what >one is & can't find any reference in the A/C Spruce catalog. > >Thanks for the attention already given, Are you planning any kind of ground plane under the antenna? You'd like to see a some "radials" like those illustrated in the 'Conection on page 13-10. Even if two or three (one going forward and two to either side on the stabilizer?). Getting the antenna portion shortened a tad is not a big deal . . . but you need some radials too. Got any ideas how to make this happen? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:19:59 PM PST US From: "Gerry Clabots" Subject: AeroElectric-List: AOA audio Input To Intercom --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Gerry Clabots" Looking for a way to get the AOA audio into my intercom or headset. I have a Appollo GX 60 and a PS Engineering PS 1000II intercom. If i put it in the music input of the intercom it mutes when any transmission is present. Could I possibly wire it into my headset jack without problems? Looking for a solution short of adding a audio panel. Thanks Gerry ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:29:31 PM PST US From: "Dennis Johnson" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Revised Load Analysis --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dennis Johnson" Greetings, I'm hoping that the formatting survives this time! This month is wiring month for my Lancair Legacy. My preliminary load analysis for each electrical bus is presented for review and comment. Composite airplane, engine in front, 75 amp main alternator, SD-8 aux alternator, single battery, Z-13/8 all electric on a budget with overweight E-Bus. Chelton Sport glass cockpit with backups for airspeed, altimeter, and electric attitude indicator (TruTrak ADI). IFR and night flights anticipated. The "Typ Amps" represents the typical continuous current in cruise flight. I'm curious if anyone has comments regarding which components are on each bus. Battery Bus: Baggage area dome light 1-2 amps Clock - Panel flood lights .5 Map lights .5 Electronic ignition 2 Alternate feed to E-Bus - Total battery bus loads 4-5 amps E-Bus: Elevator trim servo - Roll & yaw trim servos - Transponder & altitude encoder 1.5 Audio panel & headsets .4 Gear down lights & O2 regulators - Engine info system (GRT) .2 Com radio .3 (3.2 max) Autopilot .5 (2.5 max, including servos) Instrument panel lights .2 Chelton display #1 2.5 Chelton display #2 2.5 Attitude heading reference sys .2 Total E-Bus loads 9 (14 max) Main Bus: Angle of attack indicator .2 Fuel boost pump - VOR receiver 1 Wingtip position lights (LEDs) ? Wingtip strobe lights ? Wing flaps motor - Taxi light - Landing light - Pitot heat - (11 when in use) Avionics cooling fan .5 Backup electric attitude indicator ? Normal feed to E-Bus 9 (14 max) Total Main Bus 16 (42 max) Other: Hydraulic pump for landing gear - (40 amp ANL fuse) Thanks, Dennis Johnson Legacy #257, wiring this month ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:15:57 PM PST US From: "Bill Hibbing" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: AOA audio Input To Intercom --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Hibbing" Gerry, I wired mine directly to the headset audio jack and it works just fine. The only thing is I'm the only one that will hear "angle, angle, push", which is probably a good thing. Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerry Clabots" Subject: AeroElectric-List: AOA audio Input To Intercom > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Gerry Clabots" > > > Looking for a way to get the AOA audio into my intercom or headset. > I have a Appollo GX 60 and a PS Engineering PS 1000II intercom. > If i put it in the music input of the intercom it mutes when any > transmission is present. > Could I possibly wire it into my headset jack without problems? > Looking for a solution short of adding a audio panel. > Thanks Gerry > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:50:58 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: AOA audio Input To Intercom From: "John Schroeder" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Schroeder" Gerry - Which AOA do your have? We wired our Proprietary Software AOA Sport to the "unswitched audio" pin on the GArmin 340. The PSE box must have something similar. If they do not, wire it to the ADF pin and placard that button on the bezel as "AOA" and make sure it is punched on when you fly. This assumes that you are not bothering with an ADF radio in your shiny new OBAM experimental. Cheers, John Schroeder Lancair ES - in Paint Shop > > Looking for a way to get the AOA audio into my intercom or headset. > I have a Appollo GX 60 and a PS Engineering PS 1000II intercom. > If i put it in the music input of the intercom it mutes when any > transmission is present. > Could I possibly wire it into my headset jack without problems? > Looking for a solution short of adding a audio panel. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:15:39 PM PST US From: "William" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: ELT Antenna Length --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "William" Go to a wood working store/catalog and by a drill bit for boring through lamp bases ~18" long, then you could go up through all three ribs if I understand your statement below correctly. Bill Schertz KIS Cruiser # 4045 I want to > mount the base of the antenna in the fuselage & extend the antenna up into > the already covered portion of the vert stab. > The antenna that came with my ELT has a ~3" high rubber cone at the base > out > of which extends about 18 more inches of small diameter metal rod. I > drilled small holes in the bottom two ribs of the stabilizer, but the > third > one I can't reach with a drill bit. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:21:24 PM PST US From: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: ELT --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" Re: ELTs. Something to look at... Someday aviation will catch up to ham radio, where we've already developed a system that displays the current location of everybody who wants to participate. You can call it Big Brother, but it's voluntary and we built it for ourselves, and in aviation it sure might come in handy if you have a 7700 situation. Here's what Texas looks like right now in real time: http://www.findu.com/cgi-bin/dmap.cgi?map=txstate.mp&last=24&maplist=master.txt&width=640&height=480 Dave Morris