Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:13 AM - Re: EFIS Comparisons (Craig Payne)
2. 02:18 AM - Re: Re: Solder Station (Craig Payne)
3. 02:22 AM - Re: EFIS Comparisons (Craig Payne)
4. 04:39 AM - Re: Re: Solder Station (Harley)
5. 05:38 AM - Re: Fuse or Fusible Link Question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 05:53 AM - Re: EFIS Comparisons (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 05:56 AM - Re: Re: Solder Station (BobsV35B@aol.com)
8. 06:00 AM - Re: EFIS Comparisons (Kevin Maxwell)
9. 06:12 AM - Re: EFIS Comparisons (Greg Vouga)
10. 06:18 AM - Re: EFIS Comparisons (Brinker)
11. 06:25 AM - Re: EFIS Comparisons (Greg Vouga)
12. 06:27 AM - Re: EFIS Comparisons (Greg Vouga)
13. 06:29 AM - Re: Re: Solder Station (John Schroeder)
14. 06:32 AM - Re: EFIS Comparisons (Harley)
15. 06:32 AM - Re: Solder Station (Eric M. Jones)
16. 06:51 AM - Re: EFIS Comparisons (Bill Denton)
17. 07:25 AM - Re: Common Grounding (Eric M. Jones)
18. 07:28 AM - Re: EFIS Comparisons (Brian Lloyd)
19. 07:45 AM - Re: Re: Common Grounding (Charlie England)
20. 07:55 AM - Sectionals On-Line ()
21. 08:27 AM - alternator b-lead bundled with engine computer wiring (Mickey Coggins)
22. 08:30 AM - Re: EFIS Comparisons (sportav8r@aol.com)
23. 08:39 AM - Re:Oil Pressure warning light and hobbs driver? (T. Graziano)
24. 09:07 AM - Re: EFIS Comparisons (Bruce Gray)
25. 09:36 AM - Solder Station ()
26. 10:52 AM - Re: alternator b-lead bundled with engine computer wiring (LarryRobertHelming)
27. 11:06 AM - Re: Solder Station (Doug Windhorn)
28. 11:32 AM - Re: alternator b-lead bundled with engine computer wiring (Doug Windhorn)
29. 11:50 AM - Re: Re: Solder Station (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
30. 12:37 PM - Re: EFIS Comparisons (Chuck Jensen)
31. 12:53 PM - Re: alternator b-lead bundled with engine computer wiring (Mickey Coggins)
32. 12:55 PM - Re: EFIS Comparisons (Craig Payne)
33. 01:11 PM - Re: Re:Oil Pressure warning light and hobbs driver? (Craig Payne)
34. 01:12 PM - Re: EFIS Comparisons (Brian Lloyd)
35. 01:13 PM - Re: EFIS Comparisons (Alan K. Adamson)
36. 01:13 PM - PERMANENT ADIZ (WRBYARS@aol.com)
37. 01:15 PM - Re: EFIS Comparisons (Brian Lloyd)
38. 01:24 PM - Re: Re:Oil Pressure warning light and hobbs driver? (Craig Payne)
39. 01:56 PM - Re: EFIS Comparisons (Chuck Jensen)
40. 02:11 PM - Re: Solder Station (Eric M. Jones)
41. 02:41 PM - Re: alternator b-lead bundled with engine computer wiring (Doug Windhorn)
42. 02:46 PM - Re: EFIS Comparisons (Alan K. Adamson)
43. 02:48 PM - Re: Solder Station (Jerry Grimmonpre)
44. 02:54 PM - Re: EFIS Comparisons (John Schroeder)
45. 03:02 PM - Re: EFIS Comparisons (Brinker)
46. 03:22 PM - Re: EFIS Comparisons (BobsV35B@aol.com)
47. 03:24 PM - Re: EFIS Comparisons (Brinker)
48. 03:52 PM - Re: Solder Station (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
49. 04:03 PM - Re: Re: Common Grounding (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
50. 05:56 PM - Re: ***SPAM*** Re: EFIS Comparisons (John Schroeder)
51. 06:00 PM - Re: EFIS Comparisons (Harley)
52. 06:23 PM - Re: EFIS Comparisons (John Schroeder)
53. 08:27 PM - Re: ***SPAM*** Re: EFIS Comparisons (Alan K. Adamson)
54. 08:39 PM - Re: Common Grounding (Eric M. Jones)
55. 09:20 PM - Re: ***SPAM*** Re: EFIS Comparisons (Bob C.)
Message 1
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| Subject: | EFIS Comparisons |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
One that usually gets missed is MGL Avionics. Low end I guess but I like
(and own) one of their Stratomaster line. And the owner of the company
answers their e-mails. Sonex recommends them for their planes.
www.mglavionics.co.za ("za" is South Africa)
www.sportflyingshop.com/ is the US distributor I bought mine through.
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Greg
Vouga
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 9:03 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: EFIS Comparisons
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Greg Vouga"
--> <gmvouga@hotmail.com>
Hi all,
I've been muddling through all the different EFIS's trying to decide which
one to put in my RV-7A. I'm leaning toward the Blue Mountain E-1, but
frankly, the company scares the hell out of me. I've even heard of several
new systems that have come to market (or are about to) over the last year.
I'd like to put together a comparison of features to help me with my
decision. Has anyone already done this? If you already have a spreadsheet
that you wouldn't mind sharing I would appreciate it.
Thanks,
Greg
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Solder Station |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
Heck, I live in the US and I've never heard it called that. But I am
guessing he is talking about an abrasive pad made of stainless steel
turnings.
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Fiveonepw@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 9:18 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Solder Station
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
In a message dated 01/12/2006 7:43:26 PM Central Standard Time,
emjones@charter.net writes:
My most valuable suggestion is to AVOID the wet sponge mess and use a
stainless steel chore-boy stuffed into a heavy pipe to clean your tip. I
wish I'd know about this years earlier.
>>>>
PLEASE elaborate, Eric! Never heard of a "chore-boy" down here in the 3rd
wirld...
Mark do not archive
Message 3
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| Subject: | EFIS Comparisons |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
Well, there was a minor tiff between Bob and Greg Richter of Blue Mountain
Avionics:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/richter/richter.html
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Malcolm
Thomson
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 9:55 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EFIS Comparisons
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Malcolm Thomson"
--> <mthomson@showmeproductions.com>
What is it that "scares the hell out of you" about Blue Mountain. Perhaps
you need a company comparison and not so much a product feature comparison?
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Greg
Vouga
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 9:03 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: EFIS Comparisons
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Greg Vouga"
--> <gmvouga@hotmail.com>
Hi all,
I've been muddling through all the different EFIS's trying to decide which
one to put in my RV-7A. I'm leaning toward the Blue Mountain E-1, but
frankly, the company scares the hell out of me. I've even heard of several
new systems that have come to market (or are about to) over the last year.
I'd like to put together a comparison of features to help me with my
decision. Has anyone already done this? If you already have a spreadsheet
that you wouldn't mind sharing I would appreciate it.
Thanks,
Greg
--
--
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Solder Station |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Harley <harley@agelesswings.com>
Morning, Guys...
Chore Boy is a brand name. They make scouring pads of copper or
stainless steel mesh. I've heard that it is also used in making crack
cocaine!
Here's what the box looks like (you can get them at many grocery and
drug stores.):
www.instawares.com/Chore-Boy-Stainless-Steel-Scouring-Pads.41496RC.0.7.htm
or:
http://tinyurl.com/7or7z
Harley Dixon
Craig Payne wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
>
>Heck, I live in the US and I've never heard it called that. But I am
>guessing he is talking about an abrasive pad made of stainless steel
>turnings.
>
>-- Craig
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
>Fiveonepw@aol.com
>Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 9:18 PM
>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Solder Station
>
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
>
>In a message dated 01/12/2006 7:43:26 PM Central Standard Time,
>emjones@charter.net writes:
>My most valuable suggestion is to AVOID the wet sponge mess and use a
>stainless steel chore-boy stuffed into a heavy pipe to clean your tip. I
>wish I'd know about this years earlier.
>
>
>
>PLEASE elaborate, Eric! Never heard of a "chore-boy" down here in the 3rd
>wirld...
>
>Mark do not archive
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Fuse or Fusible Link Question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 09:21 PM 1/12/2006 -0600, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Schlatterer"
><billschlatterer@sbcglobal.net>
>
>
>Bob you replied earlier:
>
> >(2) Im confused about the wire between the connection terminal for the
> >main bus and the DC power master switch. Why have a wire with a
> >fusible link coming off the bus connection terminal when you could just
> >have the wire hooked up to the bus with a standard fuse like the other
> >circuits? I know Im missing something...
>
> I you choose to use a fuse block in conjunction with an alternator
> control having a crowbar ov protection system, you'll want a circuit
> breaker on the panel which is an EXTENSION of the bus from the fuse
> block to the breaker. The time constant of fuses is MUCH too fast to
> run upstream of a breaker during the crowbar event . . . hence
> the fusible link.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>In a previous post, I understood you to say that you could normally
>substitute an appropriate fuse, 7a in this case for a 22g fusible link. I
>take it from the above that there are instances where you want something
>slower than a fuse which is the purpose here for the fusible link and you
>would not want to run from the CB directly to a 7a fused slot. True? If so,
>are there other instances to be aware of?
>
>You also make the comment specifically as it applies to crowbar OV
>protection systems and I see it with the crowbar on the 6/1/05 version of
>Z13 using a ford regulator. I assume but am not sure if this also applies
>as well if using the B&C LR3 regulator with internal OV protection shown on
>earlier versions? ?? (I "was" fusing this one also)
Yes, the LR-series regulators INTEND to open a 5A breaker
during an OV event. A 5A breaker is slower than a 20A fuse
in a fault clearing event, hence the attractiveness of
the fusible link
-------------------------------
Here's the post you're referring to:
At 07:24 PM 11/27/2005 -0600, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Schlatterer"
><billschlatterer@sbcglobal.net>
>
>Bob, I understand that we size the fuse to the wire but I am a little
>confused about when and where one would use a fusible link. In the Z11
>figure, you show the E-Bus Alt Feed with a 7a fuse off the main battery bus
>using 16g wire through a 1-3 switch and 16g unprotected wire to the E-Bus.
>Now, in Z13, you show the same thing with a fusible link between the E-bus
>Alt Feed switch and E-Bus.
>
>Questions:
>
>In Z11, are we using the 7a fuse to protect the switch since 16g wire could
>take a 12.5 amp fuse or is it size related to the design load on the E-bus?
Keep in mind that the Z-drawings are illustrations of architecture
and minute details such as wire and fuse sizing may (probably will)
take some consideration and adjustment to meed your design goals.
In the case you cite above I have no way to predict the distance (i.e.
length of wire) between battery bus and the e-bus. While limited in
total performance by the 7A fuse (my personal upper limit for always
hot wire feeders), voltage drop and source-impedance looking back at
the battery can be reduced by making the feeder something larger than
the 7A fuse would have suggested.
>In Z11, why aren't we protecting the wire after the switch since it is hot
>when the master is on and it's a pretty long wire?
Longer than 6" (or some other extraordinarily protected length
of your choice)? Then protect it too. Perhaps a fuse slot on the
e-bus would be appropriate for protection of a long feeder between
e-bus switch and the e-bus. Alternatively, you could deduce that
this wire is all inside the cockpit, well routed, well protected from
mechanical faults to ground and decide it's okay as-shown.
>In Z13, why are we using a 20g fusible link (protects at 7 amps?) on the
>wire after the E-Bus Alt Feed switch but not in the Z11 figure?
(I see that I didn't answer this adequately - the EXTRA
protection in the e-bus alternate feed path is for the
case where the e-bus is the SOURCE. Faults on the e-bus
alternate feed wire can be sourced from either end. One
could use one of the e-bus fuses [7A] to compliment the
7A fuse at the other end . . . but it uses up a slot on the
bus. The fusible link seemed like a good player in this
slot)
This is an example of a design goal decision based on the
considerations above. Given the very protected environment
this wire traverses, perhaps the fusible link is satisfactory.
In fact, it probably is . . . the fusible link offers adequate
protection for the rest of the wires in a bundle if the link is
forced open . . . but it's going to be smoky in the cockpit.
Probability is very low so the fusible link saves a fuse slot
for more useful things, offers real (if not exciting) protection
from a fault that is a very low risk event.
>In the Z13 case, would it be acceptable to run the alt e-bus feed to a tab
>on the e-bus with a 7a fuse instead of using a fusible link to the bus stud?
>Assumes available tab positions.
---------------------------------------------
You'll note that in this thread we were discussing
the feeder from battery bus to e-bus through the alternate
feed switch. Further, a fusible link is suggested ONLY
at the e-bus end of the alternate feed path (as shown in
Figure Z-13/8) where the SOURCE that opens this protection
is a powered-up main bus. Note that feeds from the battery
bus are always FAST protection like CB (okay) or fuse (really
fast and my personal preference).
When I started discussions on fusible links several years
ago, I had but two applications in mind. Protection of ammeter
feeders from a shunt and protection of a BUS EXTENSION of
a fuseblock to a 5A breaker in a crowbar ov protection system.
The attractiveness and general substitutability of the fusible
link has morphed into new areas which are much better served
by fuses. In view of the I(squared)*T characteristics of
the ANL current limiters, fusible links seemed practical for
b-lead feeders in small alternators like the Rotax (Figure
Z-16).
The practical use of these devices is rare and limited to
specific locations cited in the Z-figures. The only really
attractive application is bus extension from a fuseblock
to a 5A crowbar breaker. If you have a breaker panel in
lieu of fuseblocks, then the fusible link is obviously not
needed. Virtually ALL other potential applications for
fusible links are well served with fast fuses.
Please don't treat fusible links as plug-n-play substitutes
for any other kind of circuit protection. Using a 7A fuse
on both ends of the alternate feed path is very attractive
from a speed-of-operation in process of protecting the path
from ground faults.
Bob . . .
Message 6
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| Subject: | EFIS Comparisons |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 03:19 AM 1/13/2006 -0700, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Craig Payne"
><craig@craigandjean.com>
>
>Well, there was a minor tiff between Bob and Greg Richter of Blue Mountain
>Avionics:
>
>http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/richter/richter.html
>
>-- Craig
Keep in mind folks that the "tiff" had nothing to do with Blue Mountain
EFIS systems. Greg chose to offer advice to builders concerning techniques
and materials selections for assembling an electrical system that he
could not support with an explanation of simple-ideas. He also chose
to take a whack at the 'Connection. However, in spite of an overt offer
to "talk shop" was ultimately unable or unwilling to discuss specifics
as to where the 'Connection fell short. He never answered a single question.
One might infer things about Greg's business model and/or manufacturing
techniques based on our short exchange but doing so is certain to
be incomplete and have some errors of perception. Blue Mountain has
been around for some years. Your very best information on their
hardware and business performance is from customers who are installing
and/or flying their products - not from third-party discussions here
on the List or anywhere else (except where they cite first-hand knowledge
of fact).
Bob . . .
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Solder Station |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com
In a message dated 1/13/2006 4:20:01 A.M. Central Standard Time,
craig@craigandjean.com writes:
Heck, I live in the US and I've never heard it called that. But I am
guessing he is talking about an abrasive pad made of stainless steel
turnings.
-- Craig
'Chore Boy' is brand name.
Do Not Archive
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: EFIS Comparisons |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kevin Maxwell <kevmaxwell@mac.com>
On Jan 12, 2006, at 10:02 PM, Greg Vouga wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Greg Vouga"
> <gmvouga@hotmail.com>
>
> Hi all,
>
> I've been muddling through all the different EFIS's trying to
> decide which
> one to put in my RV-7A. I'm leaning toward the Blue Mountain E-1, but
> frankly, the company scares the hell out of me.
Never had anything but positive experiences. They've bent over
backwards when necessary, which has been rare. They maintain an
unmoderated forum, which is a valuable resource, but does tend to
lend a sense of exaggeration to the inevitable rare problems.
Kevin #83
Message 9
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| Subject: | EFIS Comparisons |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Greg Vouga" <gmvouga@hotmail.com>
The part that scares me is the company. I've heard too many rumors about
bad service, slow (or no) delivery, and even a few system malfunctions.
While I've not verified all of this info, there's enough negative stuff out
there to at least make me nervous. So much so, that I've started looking
into other systems more closesly.
I've been a fan of BMA for about 2 years. I'm very impressed with their
features and the overall appearance of their system. However, I've almost
had tunnel vision when it comes to other systems. Which is what is
prompting me to put together a comparison of all systems. I would like to
start out with features alone. Of course this will only be one piece of the
decision puzzle. I think it will be helpfull for me to go back to basics
and start there.
>From: "Malcolm Thomson" <mthomson@showmeproductions.com>
>To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EFIS Comparisons
>Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 21:55:18 -0700
>
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Malcolm Thomson"
><mthomson@showmeproductions.com>
>
>What is it that "scares the hell out of you" about Blue Mountain. Perhaps
>you need a company comparison and not so much a product feature comparison?
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Greg
>Vouga
>Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 9:03 PM
>To: avionics-list@matronics.com; aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: EFIS Comparisons
>
>
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Greg Vouga"
>--> <gmvouga@hotmail.com>
>
>Hi all,
>
>I've been muddling through all the different EFIS's trying to decide which
>one to put in my RV-7A. I'm leaning toward the Blue Mountain E-1, but
>frankly, the company scares the hell out of me. I've even heard of several
>new systems that have come to market (or are about to) over the last year.
>I'd like to put together a comparison of features to help me with my
>decision. Has anyone already done this? If you already have a spreadsheet
>that you wouldn't mind sharing I would appreciate it.
>
>Thanks,
>Greg
>
>
>--
>
>
>--
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: EFIS Comparisons |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Brinker" <brinker@cox-internet.com>
Greetings Stein, can you give an idea of the new stuff coming out
at Sun n fun ? Website's ?
Thanks Randy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stein Bruch" <stein@steinair.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 11:42 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EFIS Comparisons
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Stein Bruch"
> <stein@steinair.com>
>
> Hi Greg,
>
> This is a tough one to put in black and white, just because there are a
> lot
> of things about all the EFIS's that while maybe listed as a "function" act
> completely different between mfgrs. The better approach is to decide what
> your flight/mission requirments are, then talk to some people that have
> experience with different units and can give you an objective overview.
> It's really hard to get objective reviews on this stuff, because you'll
> quickly find that the average person will normally defend their
> purchase/selection and normally they are spot on. That being said, your
> requirments/desires for functionality will certainly differ from mine, so
> my
> rationale/justification of a particular product for my plane naturally
> won't
> dovetail with yours. I find that depending on people's requirements, it's
> usually pretty easy to figure out which EFIS works best for them after
> finding out what they want to do with it, what they can afford, etc..
>
> I've had a fair bit of experience with all the normal players in the
> market
> and can say that so far I've had good experiences with all the companies.
> In the past week I've ordered a number of EFIS's and the orders are nearly
> equal(BMA, GRT, Dynon & Chelton) so you can see that the current balance
> doesn't really show any particular company running away with sales or
> functionality. Add to that some exciting new stuff coming out at Sun n Fun
> from other manufacturers and the decisions will become somewhat more
> confusing!
>
> Anyway, like I said..figure out what you want (and what you can afford)
> and
> go from there.
>
> Just my 2 cents as usual.
>
> Cheers,
> Stein.
>
> do not archive
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Greg
> Vouga
> Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 10:03 PM
> To: avionics-list@matronics.com; aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: EFIS Comparisons
>
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Greg Vouga"
> <gmvouga@hotmail.com>
>
> Hi all,
>
> I've been muddling through all the different EFIS's trying to decide which
> one to put in my RV-7A. I'm leaning toward the Blue Mountain E-1, but
> frankly, the company scares the hell out of me. I've even heard of
> several
> new systems that have come to market (or are about to) over the last year.
> I'd like to put together a comparison of features to help me with my
> decision. Has anyone already done this? If you already have a
> spreadsheet
> that you wouldn't mind sharing I would appreciate it.
>
> Thanks,
> Greg
>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | EFIS Comparisons |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Greg Vouga" <gmvouga@hotmail.com>
Thanks for the advice. I've also found a large discrepancy in the reports
that people give of the systems. It's hard to get an accurate view of the
capabilities of a system that is not laced with opinions.
>From: "Stein Bruch" <stein@steinair.com>
>To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EFIS Comparisons
>Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 23:42:18 -0600
>
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Stein Bruch" <stein@steinair.com>
>
>Hi Greg,
>
>This is a tough one to put in black and white, just because there are a lot
>of things about all the EFIS's that while maybe listed as a "function" act
>completely different between mfgrs. The better approach is to decide what
>your flight/mission requirments are, then talk to some people that have
>experience with different units and can give you an objective overview.
>It's really hard to get objective reviews on this stuff, because you'll
>quickly find that the average person will normally defend their
>purchase/selection and normally they are spot on. That being said, your
>requirments/desires for functionality will certainly differ from mine, so
>my
>rationale/justification of a particular product for my plane naturally
>won't
>dovetail with yours. I find that depending on people's requirements, it's
>usually pretty easy to figure out which EFIS works best for them after
>finding out what they want to do with it, what they can afford, etc..
>
>I've had a fair bit of experience with all the normal players in the market
>and can say that so far I've had good experiences with all the companies.
>In the past week I've ordered a number of EFIS's and the orders are nearly
>equal(BMA, GRT, Dynon & Chelton) so you can see that the current balance
>doesn't really show any particular company running away with sales or
>functionality. Add to that some exciting new stuff coming out at Sun n Fun
>from other manufacturers and the decisions will become somewhat more
>confusing!
>
>Anyway, like I said..figure out what you want (and what you can afford) and
>go from there.
>
>Just my 2 cents as usual.
>
>Cheers,
>Stein.
>
>do not archive
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Greg
>Vouga
>Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 10:03 PM
>To: avionics-list@matronics.com; aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: EFIS Comparisons
>
>
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Greg Vouga" <gmvouga@hotmail.com>
>
>Hi all,
>
>I've been muddling through all the different EFIS's trying to decide which
>one to put in my RV-7A. I'm leaning toward the Blue Mountain E-1, but
>frankly, the company scares the hell out of me. I've even heard of several
>new systems that have come to market (or are about to) over the last year.
>I'd like to put together a comparison of features to help me with my
>decision. Has anyone already done this? If you already have a spreadsheet
>that you wouldn't mind sharing I would appreciate it.
>
>Thanks,
>Greg
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | EFIS Comparisons |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Greg Vouga" <gmvouga@hotmail.com>
I've never heard of these guys. I'll take a look.
Thanks
>From: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
>To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EFIS Comparisons
>Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 03:06:55 -0700
>
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Craig Payne"
><craig@craigandjean.com>
>
>One that usually gets missed is MGL Avionics. Low end I guess but I like
>(and own) one of their Stratomaster line. And the owner of the company
>answers their e-mails. Sonex recommends them for their planes.
>
>www.mglavionics.co.za ("za" is South Africa)
>
>www.sportflyingshop.com/ is the US distributor I bought mine through.
>
>-- Craig
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Greg
>Vouga
>Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 9:03 PM
>To: avionics-list@matronics.com; aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: EFIS Comparisons
>
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Greg Vouga"
>--> <gmvouga@hotmail.com>
>
>Hi all,
>
>I've been muddling through all the different EFIS's trying to decide which
>one to put in my RV-7A. I'm leaning toward the Blue Mountain E-1, but
>frankly, the company scares the hell out of me. I've even heard of several
>new systems that have come to market (or are about to) over the last year.
>I'd like to put together a comparison of features to help me with my
>decision. Has anyone already done this? If you already have a spreadsheet
>that you wouldn't mind sharing I would appreciate it.
>
>Thanks,
>Greg
>
>
On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to
get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement
Message 13
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|
| Subject: | Re: Solder Station |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Schroeder" <jschroeder@perigee.net>
Mark -
It is an old time pot scrubber made from curls of metal - (kinda like
shavings from drill or milling machines). Problem now is where to get
them. Eric?? Know any sources?
Do not archive
John Schroeder
Lancair ES - Painting
On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 23:18:06 EST, <Fiveonepw@aol.com> wrote:
> PLEASE elaborate, Eric! Never heard of a "chore-boy" down here in the
> 3rd
> wirld...
--
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: EFIS Comparisons |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Harley <harley@agelesswings.com>
Can't let it go without mentioning these new guys based right down the
field from my hangar:
http://xerionavionix.com/
Harley Dixon
Long EZ N28EZ
Canandaigua, NY
Brinker wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Brinker" <brinker@cox-internet.com>
>
> Greetings Stein, can you give an idea of the new stuff coming out
>at Sun n fun ? Website's ?
>
>Thanks Randy
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Stein Bruch" <stein@steinair.com>
>To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
>Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 11:42 PM
>Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EFIS Comparisons
>
>
>
>
>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Stein Bruch"
>><stein@steinair.com>
>>
>>Hi Greg,
>>
>>This is a tough one to put in black and white, just because there are a
>>lot
>>of things about all the EFIS's that while maybe listed as a "function" act
>>completely different between mfgrs. The better approach is to decide what
>>your flight/mission requirments are, then talk to some people that have
>>experience with different units and can give you an objective overview.
>>It's really hard to get objective reviews on this stuff, because you'll
>>quickly find that the average person will normally defend their
>>purchase/selection and normally they are spot on. That being said, your
>>requirments/desires for functionality will certainly differ from mine, so
>>my
>>rationale/justification of a particular product for my plane naturally
>>won't
>>dovetail with yours. I find that depending on people's requirements, it's
>>usually pretty easy to figure out which EFIS works best for them after
>>finding out what they want to do with it, what they can afford, etc..
>>
>>I've had a fair bit of experience with all the normal players in the
>>market
>>and can say that so far I've had good experiences with all the companies.
>>In the past week I've ordered a number of EFIS's and the orders are nearly
>>equal(BMA, GRT, Dynon & Chelton) so you can see that the current balance
>>doesn't really show any particular company running away with sales or
>>functionality. Add to that some exciting new stuff coming out at Sun n Fun
>>from other manufacturers and the decisions will become somewhat more
>>confusing!
>>
>>Anyway, like I said..figure out what you want (and what you can afford)
>>and
>>go from there.
>>
>>Just my 2 cents as usual.
>>
>>Cheers,
>>Stein.
>>
>>do not archive
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
>>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Greg
>>Vouga
>>Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 10:03 PM
>>To: avionics-list@matronics.com; aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>>Subject: AeroElectric-List: EFIS Comparisons
>>
>>
>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Greg Vouga"
>><gmvouga@hotmail.com>
>>
>>Hi all,
>>
>>I've been muddling through all the different EFIS's trying to decide which
>>one to put in my RV-7A. I'm leaning toward the Blue Mountain E-1, but
>>frankly, the company scares the hell out of me. I've even heard of
>>several
>>new systems that have come to market (or are about to) over the last year.
>>I'd like to put together a comparison of features to help me with my
>>decision. Has anyone already done this? If you already have a
>>spreadsheet
>>that you wouldn't mind sharing I would appreciate it.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Greg
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Solder Station |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
Guys,
Anyone who has ever scrubbed a pot in the kitchen or made a crack pipe out of a
glass tube knows what a Chore Boy is. Grocery stores now have to keep them under
the counter because of use #2....
These are a universally-popular brand of knitted stainless or brass metal pot scrubbers.
Google "Chore Boy" = 800,000 pages. Cheeeeze...
In technical circles thay are useful in the lab as prefilters and mufflers and
a zillion other uses. Oh yes...and they make great soldering-tip cleaners, too.
Eric M. Jones
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones@charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3617#3617
Message 16
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| Subject: | EFIS Comparisons |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Denton" <bdenton@bdenton.com>
You might also keep an eye on: http://www.aveousa.com/
They are technology partners with MGL Avionics, and while some of their
products are duplicates of the MGL units, Aveo also offers some products
that are exclusive to their line.
They will be introducing several new, and what they promise will be
exciting, products some time in January, so you might check their site
periodically...
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Greg
Vouga
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 8:27 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EFIS Comparisons
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Greg Vouga" <gmvouga@hotmail.com>
I've never heard of these guys. I'll take a look.
Thanks
>From: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
>To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EFIS Comparisons
>Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 03:06:55 -0700
>
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Craig Payne"
><craig@craigandjean.com>
>
>One that usually gets missed is MGL Avionics. Low end I guess but I like
>(and own) one of their Stratomaster line. And the owner of the company
>answers their e-mails. Sonex recommends them for their planes.
>
>www.mglavionics.co.za ("za" is South Africa)
>
>www.sportflyingshop.com/ is the US distributor I bought mine through.
>
>-- Craig
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Greg
>Vouga
>Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 9:03 PM
>To: avionics-list@matronics.com; aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: EFIS Comparisons
>
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Greg Vouga"
>--> <gmvouga@hotmail.com>
>
>Hi all,
>
>I've been muddling through all the different EFIS's trying to decide which
>one to put in my RV-7A. I'm leaning toward the Blue Mountain E-1, but
>frankly, the company scares the hell out of me. I've even heard of several
>new systems that have come to market (or are about to) over the last year.
>I'd like to put together a comparison of features to help me with my
>decision. Has anyone already done this? If you already have a spreadsheet
>that you wouldn't mind sharing I would appreciate it.
>
>Thanks,
>Greg
>
>
On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to
get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Common Grounding |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
Rick
Snip...>does this offer any advantage over a long aluminum bar? Seems aluminum
would be slightly lighter, cheaper....
The electric power company uses aluminum drops to your house, but for the grounding
they use copper/zinc/etc. This is because aluminum is fine for higher voltages
with the proper joints and anti-oxide goops, but to guarantee the ground
won't float a couple volts is impossible with aluminum connections, and a real
mess with low voltage, high current connections. The right way to do it would
be to use aluminum bar/strap/whatever and a welded on aluminum-copper transition
endpiece. (Google "aluminum copper transition"). Alternatively, copper or
copper-clad-aluminum is your best bet.
If you use Perihelion Design's Super-CCA for ground, you can strip off the insulation
to save a bit more.
If you choose to use plain aluminum...expect mysterious ground problems and the
retrofit of a real ground at your first annual....
Eric M. Jones
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones@charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3637#3637
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: EFIS Comparisons |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Craig Payne wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
>
> Well, there was a minor tiff between Bob and Greg Richter of Blue Mountain
> Avionics:
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/richter/richter.html
It is interesting. I spent the better part of a day with Greg trying to
get the feel for the Blue Mountain EFIS-1 as I am considering it for my
CJ6A project. (Airframe and pneumatics done. Engine, prop, electrical
system, glass, and paint to go.)
Greg's biggest lament is how his tech support gets eaten up by
installation and wiring problems. I can understand why he would want to
do something about that as it costs him money when someone's EFIS-1
doesn't work for whatever reason.
Greg's approach to the problem is simplicity. The less there is, the
less can go wrong or be made to go wrong. I agree that the KISS
principle is generally a good thing.
One thing I did find interesting is that his box drops off-line at about
9V-10V. It won't ride through cranking the engine on a 14V electrical
system. He was working on a backup battery approach to provide power to
EFIS-1 so it would stay alive while the engine was cranked. He prefers
aircraft have a 28V electrical system as he then has just that much more
margin before hitting that 9v-10v point. This didn't matter to me in the
CJ6A because:
1. it is a 28V system;
2. there is no electrical starter so there will never be that level of
drain from the battery.
I consider this to be non-problem for me and a potential problem for
everyone who is planning to install an EFIS-1 in their OBAM aircraft
with a 14V electrical system and an electric starter. Do the other PFD
manufacturers have this problem? I don't know but it is something to
consider in your installation. (And for all I know Greg has solved the
problem but I haven't looked for over a year.)
What I don't get is why there should be any kind of rancor between Greg
and Bob. Bob emphasized wiring aircraft in a workman-like manner using
the proper materials to ensure that the system is mechanically and
electrically sound with no single point of failure. If builders really
do what Bob suggests, their electrical systems should be exceedingly
reliable and eliminate the kinds of problems that Greg has been
experiencing.
And Greg can't blame Bob when someone chooses to do a poor job. That
doesn't make Bob's information any less correct.
As for the argument about understanding electrical systems, I don't
think it is all that hard. (But then, I started building radios at age 7
so I probably don't count.) I do know that building an airplane requires
one to become conversant with any number of technologies upon which
one's life will depend after the wheels have left Terra firma. The
electrical system is just one such. I have always applauded the
AeroElectric Connection because it is so thorough in presenting the
basics. (Even if
Bob still prefers silicon to Schottky isolation diodes for the EB.)
Learning electricity to the point where you can understand your
electrical system is no harder than having to learn the FARs (easier in
fact because electricity makes sense under all conditions) or learn to
fly on instruments and certainly no worse that understanding your fuel
system, hydraulic system, control surface balance and rigging, fabric
application, etc.
Albert Einstein once said it very succinctly:
"Things should be made as simple as possible,
and no simpler."
Now, as for my choice for a PFD/MFD EFIS I am still leaning toward the
Blue Mountain EFIS-1. I have a tandem cockpit aircraft and need to
provide instrumentation to both cockpits. I can do it with the EFIS-1
just by adding a second display. It has what I need to be able to fly an
ILS. (I consider basic-IFR capability to be a must in any aircraft as it
enhances my ability to complete a flight safely. YMMV) It provides full
engine monitoring. My backup will be a standard 3-pack of steam gauges,
i.e. altimeter, AI, and airspeed, or perhaps a Dynon D-10. Of course
there will be a whiskey compass. My perception is that EFIS-1 will
reduce my wiring requirements.
But the Jury is still out. There are lots of companies coming along with
very nice PFDs and engine monitoring. I am considering GRT also but that
would entail two of everything to equip both cockpits and their price
advantage is pretty well lost at that point. Dynon is amazingly
inexpensive for what you get and is probably how I would go when
equipping an aircraft where cost is the real object and there are real
estate issues. (I wish the Dynon had been around when I was doing the
panel in my RV-4.)
Those are my thoughts. They are worth every penny you paid for them. ;-)
--
Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Common Grounding |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie England <ceengland@bellsouth.net>
Eric M. Jones wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
>
>Rick
>
>Snip...>does this offer any advantage over a long aluminum bar? Seems aluminum
would be slightly lighter, cheaper....
>
>The electric power company uses aluminum drops to your house, but for the grounding
they use copper/zinc/etc. This is because aluminum is fine for higher voltages
with the proper joints and anti-oxide goops, but to guarantee the ground
won't float a couple volts is impossible with aluminum connections, and a real
mess with low voltage, high current connections. The right way to do it would
be to use aluminum bar/strap/whatever and a welded on aluminum-copper transition
endpiece. (Google "aluminum copper transition"). Alternatively, copper
or copper-clad-aluminum is your best bet.
>
>If you use Perihelion Design's Super-CCA for ground, you can strip off the insulation
to save a bit more.
>
>If you choose to use plain aluminum...expect mysterious ground problems and the
retrofit of a real ground at your first annual....
>
>
>Eric M. Jones
>
I've often wondered if the 'aluminum brazing' products hyped at flyins &
available at welding shops could be used to transition from AL bar stock
to a copper tab for mechanical connections. They are supposed to work on
'most non-ferrous metals'. This might accomplish Rick's goal of light,
cheap, simple, safe. Is that worth exploring?
Charlie
Message 20
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| Subject: | Sectionals On-Line |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Check out Sectionals On-Line.
Onhttp://skyvector.com/
Ron Parigoris
Message 21
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| Subject: | alternator b-lead bundled with engine computer wiring |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
Hi Listers,
I'm trying to finalize my firewall penetrations,
and one convenient way would be to have one
"towel bar" type hole in the firewall with all
my wires. This would include the fat wire from
the alternator B-lead going back to the batteries
in the rear baggage area.
Do you expect any problems if I have all these
wires, including the wires from my engine computer
to my spark plug coils, fuel injector solenoids,
various crank position sensors, electric prop
controller, and various pressure transducers?
Many thanks for your advice!
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: EFIS Comparisons |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com
Brian-
with the GRT will you really need two of everything to have EFIS in the back seat?
I can't see why dual screens and single AHRS wouldn't work. At about $9k,
there would still be the price advantage over BMA.
I'm an outsider looking in on this technology (currently fitting a new panel blank
for dual GRT with Dynon backup) so I may well be overlooking something...
-Bill B
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Sent: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 07:27:20 -0800
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EFIS Comparisons
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Craig Payne wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
>
> Well, there was a minor tiff between Bob and Greg Richter of Blue Mountain
> Avionics:
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/richter/richter.html
It is interesting. I spent the better part of a day with Greg trying to
get the feel for the Blue Mountain EFIS-1 as I am considering it for my
CJ6A project. (Airframe and pneumatics done. Engine, prop, electrical
system, glass, and paint to go.)
Greg's biggest lament is how his tech support gets eaten up by
installation and wiring problems. I can understand why he would want to
do something about that as it costs him money when someone's EFIS-1
doesn't work for whatever reason.
Greg's approach to the problem is simplicity. The less there is, the
less can go wrong or be made to go wrong. I agree that the KISS
principle is generally a good thing.
One thing I did find interesting is that his box drops off-line at about
9V-10V. It won't ride through cranking the engine on a 14V electrical
system. He was working on a backup battery approach to provide power to
EFIS-1 so it would stay alive while the engine was cranked. He prefers
aircraft have a 28V electrical system as he then has just that much more
margin before hitting that 9v-10v point. This didn't matter to me in the
CJ6A because:
1. it is a 28V system;
2. there is no electrical starter so there will never be that level of
drain from the battery.
I consider this to be non-problem for me and a potential problem for
everyone who is planning to install an EFIS-1 in their OBAM aircraft
with a 14V electrical system and an electric starter. Do the other PFD
manufacturers have this problem? I don't know but it is something to
consider in your installation. (And for all I know Greg has solved the
problem but I haven't looked for over a year.)
What I don't get is why there should be any kind of rancor between Greg
and Bob. Bob emphasized wiring aircraft in a workman-like manner using
the proper materials to ensure that the system is mechanically and
electrically sound with no single point of failure. If builders really
do what Bob suggests, their electrical systems should be exceedingly
reliable and eliminate the kinds of problems that Greg has been
experiencing.
And Greg can't blame Bob when someone chooses to do a poor job. That
doesn't make Bob's information any less correct.
As for the argument about understanding electrical systems, I don't
think it is all that hard. (But then, I started building radios at age 7
so I probably don't count.) I do know that building an airplane requires
one to become conversant with any number of technologies upon which
one's life will depend after the wheels have left Terra firma. The
electrical system is just one such. I have always applauded the
AeroElectric Connection because it is so thorough in presenting the
basics. (Even if
Bob still prefers silicon to Schottky isolation diodes for the EB.)
Learning electricity to the point where you can understand your
electrical system is no harder than having to learn the FARs (easier in
fact because electricity makes sense under all conditions) or learn to
fly on instruments and certainly no worse that understanding your fuel
system, hydraulic system, control surface balance and rigging, fabric
application, etc.
Albert Einstein once said it very succinctly:
"Things should be made as simple as possible,
and no simpler."
Now, as for my choice for a PFD/MFD EFIS I am still leaning toward the
Blue Mountain EFIS-1. I have a tandem cockpit aircraft and need to
provide instrumentation to both cockpits. I can do it with the EFIS-1
just by adding a second display. It has what I need to be able to fly an
ILS. (I consider basic-IFR capability to be a must in any aircraft as it
enhances my ability to complete a flight safely. YMMV) It provides full
engine monitoring. My backup will be a standard 3-pack of steam gauges,
i.e. altimeter, AI, and airspeed, or perhaps a Dynon D-10. Of course
there will be a whiskey compass. My perception is that EFIS-1 will
reduce my wiring requirements.
But the Jury is still out. There are lots of companies coming along with
very nice PFDs and engine monitoring. I am considering GRT also but that
would entail two of everything to equip both cockpits and their price
advantage is pretty well lost at that point. Dynon is amazingly
inexpensive for what you get and is probably how I would go when
equipping an aircraft where cost is the real object and there are real
estate issues. (I wish the Dynon had been around when I was doing the
panel in my RV-4.)
Those are my thoughts. They are worth every penny you paid for them. ;-)
--
Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re:Oil Pressure warning light and hobbs driver? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "T. Graziano" <tonyplane@bellsouth.net>
I may be wrong, but I believe the Rotac has a VDO Oil Pressure sender
whcih can be bought with two sender terminals - one terminal has an off/on
switch and the other has a variable resistor.
This is how I did it on the Jab 3000A, which came with two pick-ups on its
VDO sender.
The pickup labled WK on the VDO sender stands for warning contact, aka
"idiot light" pickup. This contact is normally closed with no oil pressure
and opens at about 8 psi. (The other pick up "feeds" the oil pressure
guage)
I installed a Radio Shcck PN 275-248 relay "velcroed" on the top of the
Hobbs (the relay is very small and rated for 10A at 24V). I wired the VDO
WK terminal to the NO coil pick up of the relay and the other relay coil
pickup wired to the master bus for its 12V pickup when the master is turned
on. This 12V wire is also spliced to feed into the COM of the relay. I then
wired the relay such that a wire from the NO on the relay fed to the + lead
of a red 12 V 1/4 in dia Radio Shack LED installed on the panel (the - lead
of the LED goes to ground). This LED lights up with the master switch ON
when there is zero or less than about 8 psi pressure. Another wire feeds
into the + of the Hobbs from the NC pickup of the relay. Another wire goes
from the - of the Hobbs to ground.
When there is Oil Press, the WK contact of the VDO opens and then the relay
switches the voltage/current to the Hobbs.
In summary. Zero or less than about 8 psi gives "idiot light" on panel.
On engine start, "idiot light" goes out (unless you have a problem) and
Hobbs starts running.
The relay and LED are very inexpensive. If you are unsure how to wire
them, study the diagram on the relay package, wire everything up on the
bench, and play with the combination.
Tony Graziano, Buchanan, Tn
Zodiac 601XL N493TG
-------------------
AeroElectric-List message posted by: <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
>
>I have a Rotax 914 powering our Europa XS Monowheel. The oil pressure
>sender changes from 0 ohms to 200 ohms.
>
>Does any one make a device that that will turn on a light when oil
>pressure is low, and turn on a electric hobbs when oil pressure is up?
>
>Or a kit or plans?
Message 24
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| Subject: | EFIS Comparisons |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
No, No, No. You want dual AHRS, with an electronic comparator hopefully. No
if it's a VFR ONLY airplane, anything goes.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
sportav8r@aol.com
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 11:28 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EFIS Comparisons
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com
Brian-
with the GRT will you really need two of everything to have EFIS in the back
seat? I can't see why dual screens and single AHRS wouldn't work. At about
$9k, there would still be the price advantage over BMA.
I'm an outsider looking in on this technology (currently fitting a new panel
blank for dual GRT with Dynon backup) so I may well be overlooking
something...
-Bill B
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Sent: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 07:27:20 -0800
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EFIS Comparisons
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Craig Payne wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Craig Payne"
<craig@craigandjean.com>
>
> Well, there was a minor tiff between Bob and Greg Richter of Blue Mountain
> Avionics:
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/richter/richter.html
It is interesting. I spent the better part of a day with Greg trying to
get the feel for the Blue Mountain EFIS-1 as I am considering it for my
CJ6A project. (Airframe and pneumatics done. Engine, prop, electrical
system, glass, and paint to go.)
Greg's biggest lament is how his tech support gets eaten up by
installation and wiring problems. I can understand why he would want to
do something about that as it costs him money when someone's EFIS-1
doesn't work for whatever reason.
Greg's approach to the problem is simplicity. The less there is, the
less can go wrong or be made to go wrong. I agree that the KISS
principle is generally a good thing.
One thing I did find interesting is that his box drops off-line at about
9V-10V. It won't ride through cranking the engine on a 14V electrical
system. He was working on a backup battery approach to provide power to
EFIS-1 so it would stay alive while the engine was cranked. He prefers
aircraft have a 28V electrical system as he then has just that much more
margin before hitting that 9v-10v point. This didn't matter to me in the
CJ6A because:
1. it is a 28V system;
2. there is no electrical starter so there will never be that level of
drain from the battery.
I consider this to be non-problem for me and a potential problem for
everyone who is planning to install an EFIS-1 in their OBAM aircraft
with a 14V electrical system and an electric starter. Do the other PFD
manufacturers have this problem? I don't know but it is something to
consider in your installation. (And for all I know Greg has solved the
problem but I haven't looked for over a year.)
What I don't get is why there should be any kind of rancor between Greg
and Bob. Bob emphasized wiring aircraft in a workman-like manner using
the proper materials to ensure that the system is mechanically and
electrically sound with no single point of failure. If builders really
do what Bob suggests, their electrical systems should be exceedingly
reliable and eliminate the kinds of problems that Greg has been
experiencing.
And Greg can't blame Bob when someone chooses to do a poor job. That
doesn't make Bob's information any less correct.
As for the argument about understanding electrical systems, I don't
think it is all that hard. (But then, I started building radios at age 7
so I probably don't count.) I do know that building an airplane requires
one to become conversant with any number of technologies upon which
one's life will depend after the wheels have left Terra firma. The
electrical system is just one such. I have always applauded the
AeroElectric Connection because it is so thorough in presenting the
basics. (Even if
Bob still prefers silicon to Schottky isolation diodes for the EB.)
Learning electricity to the point where you can understand your
electrical system is no harder than having to learn the FARs (easier in
fact because electricity makes sense under all conditions) or learn to
fly on instruments and certainly no worse that understanding your fuel
system, hydraulic system, control surface balance and rigging, fabric
application, etc.
Albert Einstein once said it very succinctly:
"Things should be made as simple as possible,
and no simpler."
Now, as for my choice for a PFD/MFD EFIS I am still leaning toward the
Blue Mountain EFIS-1. I have a tandem cockpit aircraft and need to
provide instrumentation to both cockpits. I can do it with the EFIS-1
just by adding a second display. It has what I need to be able to fly an
ILS. (I consider basic-IFR capability to be a must in any aircraft as it
enhances my ability to complete a flight safely. YMMV) It provides full
engine monitoring. My backup will be a standard 3-pack of steam gauges,
i.e. altimeter, AI, and airspeed, or perhaps a Dynon D-10. Of course
there will be a whiskey compass. My perception is that EFIS-1 will
reduce my wiring requirements.
But the Jury is still out. There are lots of companies coming along with
very nice PFDs and engine monitoring. I am considering GRT also but that
would entail two of everything to equip both cockpits and their price
advantage is pretty well lost at that point. Dynon is amazingly
inexpensive for what you get and is probably how I would go when
equipping an aircraft where cost is the real object and there are real
estate issues. (I wish the Dynon had been around when I was doing the
panel in my RV-4.)
Those are my thoughts. They are worth every penny you paid for them. ;-)
--
Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 25
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|
Cc: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <bakerocb@cox.net>
Responding to an AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "Eric M.
Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
<<......skip......My most valuable suggestion is to AVOID the wet sponge
mess and use a stainless
steel chore-boy stuffed into a heavy pipe to clean your tip. I wish I'd know
about this years earlier. Eric M. Jones>>
1/13/2006
Hello Eric, A couple of centuries ago as a young lad on the farm I had to
solder leaks in the milk pails. The preferred method of cleaning the
soldering iron tip back then was to rub the heated tip on a small block of
sal ammoniac.
Has that method fallen by the wayside? Thanks.
OC
Message 26
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|
| Subject: | Re: alternator b-lead bundled with engine computer |
wiring
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming" <lhelming@sigecom.net>
That is how I did mine. Everything goes through one hole along with some
push pull cables. Just like Bob suggests. Minimize the number of FW
penetrations. I have the ACS2002 engine monitor with lots of wires. No
problems.
Indiana Larry, RV7 Tip Up SunSeeker 78 hours
----- Original Message -----
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins
> <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
>
> Hi Listers,
>
> I'm trying to finalize my firewall penetrations,
> and one convenient way would be to have one
> "towel bar" type hole in the firewall with all
> my wires. This would include the fat wire from
> the alternator B-lead going back to the batteries
> in the rear baggage area.
>
> Do you expect any problems if I have all these
> wires, including the wires from my engine computer
> to my spark plug coils, fuel injector solenoids,
> various crank position sensors, electric prop
> controller, and various pressure transducers?
>
> Many thanks for your advice!
> --
> Mickey Coggins
> http://www.rv8.ch/
> #82007 finishing
That is how I did mine. Everything goes through one hole. Just like Bob
suggests. No problems.
Indiana Larry, RV7 Tip Up SunSeeker 78 hours
>
>
>
Message 27
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|
| Subject: | Re: Solder Station |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Doug Windhorn" <N1deltawhiskey@comcast.net>
OC,
Never heard of sal ammoniac! Googled it and came up with some interesting
information, including a site that recommends it for cleanding soldering
tips: www.glassmart.com. Click on soldering Irons, block is at the bottom.
Doug Windhorn
----- Original Message -----
From: <bakerocb@cox.net>
Cc: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Friday, 13 January, 2006 9:35
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Solder Station
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <bakerocb@cox.net>
>
> Responding to an AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "Eric M.
> Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
>
> <<......skip......My most valuable suggestion is to AVOID the wet sponge
> mess and use a stainless
> steel chore-boy stuffed into a heavy pipe to clean your tip. I wish I'd
> know
> about this years earlier. Eric M. Jones>>
>
> 1/13/2006
>
> Hello Eric, A couple of centuries ago as a young lad on the farm I had to
> solder leaks in the milk pails. The preferred method of cleaning the
> soldering iron tip back then was to rub the heated tip on a small block of
> sal ammoniac.
>
> Has that method fallen by the wayside? Thanks.
>
> OC
>
>
>
Message 28
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|
| Subject: | Re: alternator b-lead bundled with engine computer |
wiring
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Doug Windhorn" <N1deltawhiskey@comcast.net>
Mickey,
Don't understand why you are running the B-lead to the baggage area
batteries. How do you get power to the panel by running a lead from the
batteries to the panel/firewall area? If so, why not connect the B-lead to
that end of the buss?
Doug Windhorn
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mickey Coggins" <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
Sent: Friday, 13 January, 2006 8:26
Subject: AeroElectric-List: alternator b-lead bundled with engine computer
wiring
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins
> <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
>
> Hi Listers,
>
> I'm trying to finalize my firewall penetrations,
> and one convenient way would be to have one
> "towel bar" type hole in the firewall with all
> my wires. This would include the fat wire from
> the alternator B-lead going back to the batteries
> in the rear baggage area.
>
> Do you expect any problems if I have all these
> wires, including the wires from my engine computer
> to my spark plug coils, fuel injector solenoids,
> various crank position sensors, electric prop
> controller, and various pressure transducers?
>
> Many thanks for your advice!
> --
> Mickey Coggins
> http://www.rv8.ch/
> #82007 finishing
>
>
>
Message 29
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|
| Subject: | Re: Solder Station |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
In a message dated 1/13/06 8:35:32 AM Central Standard Time,
emjones@charter.net writes:
> These are a universally-popular brand of knitted stainless or brass metal
> pot scrubbers.
>>>
OH- You mean filler for air/oil separators- gotcha! Waaaay down here in the
south we just useta grab some sand offa da kitchen floor and hit the elbow
grease when the bad pots come along...
8-)
Mark do not archive
Message 30
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|
| Subject: | EFIS Comparisons |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Chuck Jensen" <cjensen@dts9000.com>
No, No, No. You want need a single AHRS to drive the dual EFIS
display. Then you want an independent, unrelated 'save your undies'
system as a backup.
As an example....if you have two Crossbow AHRS, what do you have?
For Brian's benefit, I can report a single AHRS drives both GRT EFIS
units with 100% live-time for 300 hours.
Chuck Jensen
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray"
<Bruce@glasair.org>
No, No, No. You want dual AHRS, with an electronic comparator hopefully.
No
if it's a VFR ONLY airplane, anything goes.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
sportav8r@aol.com
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 11:28 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EFIS Comparisons
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com
Brian-
with the GRT will you really need two of everything to have EFIS in the
back
seat? I can't see why dual screens and single AHRS wouldn't work. At
about
$9k, there would still be the price advantage over BMA.
I'm an outsider looking in on this technology (currently fitting a new
panel
blank for dual GRT with Dynon backup) so I may well be overlooking
something...
-Bill B
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Sent: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 07:27:20 -0800
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EFIS Comparisons
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd
<brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Craig Payne wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Craig Payne"
<craig@craigandjean.com>
>
> Well, there was a minor tiff between Bob and Greg Richter of Blue
Mountain
> Avionics:
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/richter/richter.html
It is interesting. I spent the better part of a day with Greg trying to
get the feel for the Blue Mountain EFIS-1 as I am considering it for my
CJ6A project. (Airframe and pneumatics done. Engine, prop, electrical
system, glass, and paint to go.)
Greg's biggest lament is how his tech support gets eaten up by
installation and wiring problems. I can understand why he would want to
do something about that as it costs him money when someone's EFIS-1
doesn't work for whatever reason.
Greg's approach to the problem is simplicity. The less there is, the
less can go wrong or be made to go wrong. I agree that the KISS
principle is generally a good thing.
One thing I did find interesting is that his box drops off-line at about
9V-10V. It won't ride through cranking the engine on a 14V electrical
system. He was working on a backup battery approach to provide power to
EFIS-1 so it would stay alive while the engine was cranked. He prefers
aircraft have a 28V electrical system as he then has just that much more
margin before hitting that 9v-10v point. This didn't matter to me in the
CJ6A because:
1. it is a 28V system;
2. there is no electrical starter so there will never be that level of
drain from the battery.
I consider this to be non-problem for me and a potential problem for
everyone who is planning to install an EFIS-1 in their OBAM aircraft
with a 14V electrical system and an electric starter. Do the other PFD
manufacturers have this problem? I don't know but it is something to
consider in your installation. (And for all I know Greg has solved the
problem but I haven't looked for over a year.)
What I don't get is why there should be any kind of rancor between Greg
and Bob. Bob emphasized wiring aircraft in a workman-like manner using
the proper materials to ensure that the system is mechanically and
electrically sound with no single point of failure. If builders really
do what Bob suggests, their electrical systems should be exceedingly
reliable and eliminate the kinds of problems that Greg has been
experiencing.
And Greg can't blame Bob when someone chooses to do a poor job. That
doesn't make Bob's information any less correct.
As for the argument about understanding electrical systems, I don't
think it is all that hard. (But then, I started building radios at age 7
so I probably don't count.) I do know that building an airplane requires
one to become conversant with any number of technologies upon which
one's life will depend after the wheels have left Terra firma. The
electrical system is just one such. I have always applauded the
AeroElectric Connection because it is so thorough in presenting the
basics. (Even if
Bob still prefers silicon to Schottky isolation diodes for the EB.)
Learning electricity to the point where you can understand your
electrical system is no harder than having to learn the FARs (easier in
fact because electricity makes sense under all conditions) or learn to
fly on instruments and certainly no worse that understanding your fuel
system, hydraulic system, control surface balance and rigging, fabric
application, etc.
Albert Einstein once said it very succinctly:
"Things should be made as simple as possible,
and no simpler."
Now, as for my choice for a PFD/MFD EFIS I am still leaning toward the
Blue Mountain EFIS-1. I have a tandem cockpit aircraft and need to
provide instrumentation to both cockpits. I can do it with the EFIS-1
just by adding a second display. It has what I need to be able to fly an
ILS. (I consider basic-IFR capability to be a must in any aircraft as it
enhances my ability to complete a flight safely. YMMV) It provides full
engine monitoring. My backup will be a standard 3-pack of steam gauges,
i.e. altimeter, AI, and airspeed, or perhaps a Dynon D-10. Of course
there will be a whiskey compass. My perception is that EFIS-1 will
reduce my wiring requirements.
But the Jury is still out. There are lots of companies coming along with
very nice PFDs and engine monitoring. I am considering GRT also but that
would entail two of everything to equip both cockpits and their price
advantage is pretty well lost at that point. Dynon is amazingly
inexpensive for what you get and is probably how I would go when
equipping an aircraft where cost is the real object and there are real
estate issues. (I wish the Dynon had been around when I was doing the
panel in my RV-4.)
Those are my thoughts. They are worth every penny you paid for them. ;-)
--
Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 31
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|
| Subject: | Re: alternator b-lead bundled with engine computer |
wiring
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
Hi Doug,
Thanks a lot for your question.
I've got a fat wire (AWG#6) running from the batteries to my
starter, so that's where I'm hooking in the alternator B
lead. I thought about hooking up the B lead to the main
bus, but I was not comfortable with the load the alternator
would put on the AWG#10 wire I have hooking up that bus
to the batteries.
Using Bob's figure 8-4, which shows AWG vs. amps of
continuous current and plots temperature increase, I
felt that #6 was the smallest size that would comfortably
hold the load that I expect the alternator to need to
generate (about 40 amps) based on my theoretical load
analysis. I used pretty conservative numbers for the
load analysis, so hopefully the actual load on my little
55 amp alternator is closer to 30 amps. I have electric
fuel pumps and the automotive engine computer that I
need to keep running, and they both use quite a lot of
current.
Also, being "Mr. Security", as my wife calls me, I plan
to fly with my wig-wags and strobes on all the time.
The rest of the stuff is almost negligible compared to
the previous four items.
This is my current design. If you have any suggestions,
tips, or advice I'm all ears!
http://www.rv8.ch/article.php?story=20041121101637759
Thanks again for your help.
Mickey
Doug Windhorn wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Doug Windhorn" <N1deltawhiskey@comcast.net>
>
> Mickey,
>
> Don't understand why you are running the B-lead to the baggage area
> batteries. How do you get power to the panel by running a lead from the
> batteries to the panel/firewall area? If so, why not connect the B-lead to
> that end of the buss?
>
> Doug Windhorn
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mickey Coggins" <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
> To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Friday, 13 January, 2006 8:26
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: alternator b-lead bundled with engine computer
> wiring
>
>
>
>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins
>><mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
>>
>>Hi Listers,
>>
>>I'm trying to finalize my firewall penetrations,
>>and one convenient way would be to have one
>>"towel bar" type hole in the firewall with all
>>my wires. This would include the fat wire from
>>the alternator B-lead going back to the batteries
>>in the rear baggage area.
>>
>>Do you expect any problems if I have all these
>>wires, including the wires from my engine computer
>>to my spark plug coils, fuel injector solenoids,
>>various crank position sensors, electric prop
>>controller, and various pressure transducers?
>>
>>Many thanks for your advice!
>>--
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
do not archive
Message 32
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| Subject: | EFIS Comparisons |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
Greg has a tech note on his web site about the battery back-up:
http://www.bluemountainavionics.com/pdf/battery_backup.pdf
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian
Lloyd
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 8:27 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EFIS Comparisons
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd
--> <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Craig Payne wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Craig Payne"
> --> <craig@craigandjean.com>
>
> Well, there was a minor tiff between Bob and Greg Richter of Blue
> Mountain
> Avionics:
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/richter/richter.html
It is interesting. I spent the better part of a day with Greg trying to get
the feel for the Blue Mountain EFIS-1 as I am considering it for my CJ6A
project. (Airframe and pneumatics done. Engine, prop, electrical system,
glass, and paint to go.)
Greg's biggest lament is how his tech support gets eaten up by installation
and wiring problems. I can understand why he would want to do something
about that as it costs him money when someone's EFIS-1 doesn't work for
whatever reason.
Greg's approach to the problem is simplicity. The less there is, the less
can go wrong or be made to go wrong. I agree that the KISS principle is
generally a good thing.
One thing I did find interesting is that his box drops off-line at about
9V-10V. It won't ride through cranking the engine on a 14V electrical
system. He was working on a backup battery approach to provide power to
EFIS-1 so it would stay alive while the engine was cranked. He prefers
aircraft have a 28V electrical system as he then has just that much more
margin before hitting that 9v-10v point. This didn't matter to me in the
CJ6A because:
1. it is a 28V system;
2. there is no electrical starter so there will never be that level of drain
from the battery.
I consider this to be non-problem for me and a potential problem for
everyone who is planning to install an EFIS-1 in their OBAM aircraft with a
14V electrical system and an electric starter. Do the other PFD
manufacturers have this problem? I don't know but it is something to
consider in your installation. (And for all I know Greg has solved the
problem but I haven't looked for over a year.)
What I don't get is why there should be any kind of rancor between Greg and
Bob. Bob emphasized wiring aircraft in a workman-like manner using the
proper materials to ensure that the system is mechanically and electrically
sound with no single point of failure. If builders really do what Bob
suggests, their electrical systems should be exceedingly reliable and
eliminate the kinds of problems that Greg has been experiencing.
And Greg can't blame Bob when someone chooses to do a poor job. That doesn't
make Bob's information any less correct.
As for the argument about understanding electrical systems, I don't think it
is all that hard. (But then, I started building radios at age 7 so I
probably don't count.) I do know that building an airplane requires one to
become conversant with any number of technologies upon which one's life will
depend after the wheels have left Terra firma. The electrical system is just
one such. I have always applauded the AeroElectric Connection because it is
so thorough in presenting the basics. (Even if Bob still prefers silicon to
Schottky isolation diodes for the EB.) Learning electricity to the point
where you can understand your electrical system is no harder than having to
learn the FARs (easier in fact because electricity makes sense under all
conditions) or learn to fly on instruments and certainly no worse that
understanding your fuel system, hydraulic system, control surface balance
and rigging, fabric application, etc.
Albert Einstein once said it very succinctly:
"Things should be made as simple as possible,
and no simpler."
Now, as for my choice for a PFD/MFD EFIS I am still leaning toward the Blue
Mountain EFIS-1. I have a tandem cockpit aircraft and need to provide
instrumentation to both cockpits. I can do it with the EFIS-1 just by adding
a second display. It has what I need to be able to fly an ILS. (I consider
basic-IFR capability to be a must in any aircraft as it enhances my ability
to complete a flight safely. YMMV) It provides full engine monitoring. My
backup will be a standard 3-pack of steam gauges, i.e. altimeter, AI, and
airspeed, or perhaps a Dynon D-10. Of course there will be a whiskey
compass. My perception is that EFIS-1 will reduce my wiring requirements.
But the Jury is still out. There are lots of companies coming along with
very nice PFDs and engine monitoring. I am considering GRT also but that
would entail two of everything to equip both cockpits and their price
advantage is pretty well lost at that point. Dynon is amazingly inexpensive
for what you get and is probably how I would go when equipping an aircraft
where cost is the real object and there are real estate issues. (I wish the
Dynon had been around when I was doing the panel in my RV-4.)
Those are my thoughts. They are worth every penny you paid for them. ;-)
--
Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re:Oil Pressure warning light and hobbs driver? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
After a little googling I think the part number for the VDO dual sender is
VDO-360006, Here is at least one place to buy it for 30 bucks:
http://www.mooreparts.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=VD
O360006&Category_Code=GGAUGTS
Or as a tiny url:
http://tinyurl.com/7jkkh
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of T.
Graziano
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 9:39 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re:Oil Pressure warning light and hobbs driver?
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "T. Graziano"
--> <tonyplane@bellsouth.net>
I may be wrong, but I believe the Rotac has a VDO Oil Pressure sender whcih
can be bought with two sender terminals - one terminal has an off/on switch
and the other has a variable resistor.
This is how I did it on the Jab 3000A, which came with two pick-ups on its
VDO sender.
The pickup labled WK on the VDO sender stands for warning contact, aka
"idiot light" pickup. This contact is normally closed with no oil pressure
and opens at about 8 psi. (The other pick up "feeds" the oil pressure
guage)
I installed a Radio Shcck PN 275-248 relay "velcroed" on the top of the
Hobbs (the relay is very small and rated for 10A at 24V). I wired the VDO
WK terminal to the NO coil pick up of the relay and the other relay coil
pickup wired to the master bus for its 12V pickup when the master is turned
on. This 12V wire is also spliced to feed into the COM of the relay. I then
wired the relay such that a wire from the NO on the relay fed to the + lead
of a red 12 V 1/4 in dia Radio Shack LED installed on the panel (the - lead
of the LED goes to ground). This LED lights up with the master switch ON
when there is zero or less than about 8 psi pressure. Another wire feeds
into the + of the Hobbs from the NC pickup of the relay. Another wire goes
from the - of the Hobbs to ground.
When there is Oil Press, the WK contact of the VDO opens and then the relay
switches the voltage/current to the Hobbs.
In summary. Zero or less than about 8 psi gives "idiot light" on panel.
On engine start, "idiot light" goes out (unless you have a problem) and
Hobbs starts running.
The relay and LED are very inexpensive. If you are unsure how to wire
them, study the diagram on the relay package, wire everything up on the
bench, and play with the combination.
Tony Graziano, Buchanan, Tn
Zodiac 601XL N493TG
-------------------
AeroElectric-List message posted by: <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
>
>I have a Rotax 914 powering our Europa XS Monowheel. The oil pressure
>sender changes from 0 ohms to 200 ohms.
>
>Does any one make a device that that will turn on a light when oil
>pressure is low, and turn on a electric hobbs when oil pressure is up?
>
>Or a kit or plans?
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: EFIS Comparisons |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
sportav8r@aol.com wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com
>
> Brian-
>
> with the GRT will you really need two of everything to have EFIS in the back
seat? I can't see why dual screens and single AHRS wouldn't work. At about $9k,
there would still be the price advantage over BMA.
You forgot to add in the engine monitor function. I am not sure they
support two displays for that. If I have to put in two engine monitors I
have to add another $6000 for that. Now I am up to $15,000.
In addition, I have a 9-cyl radial engine. That means 9xCHT and 9xEGT.
The GRT engine monitor does not appear to meet my needs. Greg has
assured me that the BMA EFIS-1 can handle a 9-cyl engine.
Also, the BMA EFIS-1 performs as an HSI to display the nav data from my
NavCom for VOR and ILS navigation thus eliminating the need for a
VOR/ILS head. That is more hardware I don't have to buy and it gets
repeated to the back seat. Useful if the GIB wants to fly the approach
or if I am instructing and want to monitor the VOR/ILS needles.
Basically an EFIS-1 with an Apollo/Garmin SL-30 NavCom and a transponder
is a complete panel for the airplane. All I have to do is add enough to
provide backup to make myself comfortable. If I have a Dynon or a
3-pack, I can use the built-in CDI display on the SL-30 to fly a LOC or
VOR approach even if the EFIS-1 packs it in. I have reduced capability
but should still be safe.
> I'm an outsider looking in on this technology (currently fitting a new panel
blank for dual GRT with Dynon backup) so I may well be overlooking something...
You sound like you are on the right track. I am debating between a Dynon
D-10 and a 3-pack for my backup. Decisions, decisions ...
Brian Lloyd
brian-yak at lloyd dot com
Message 35
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| Subject: | EFIS Comparisons |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alan K. Adamson" <aadamson@highrf.com>
QUOTE: As an example....if you have two Crossbow AHRS, what do you have?
END QUOTE:
Not sure what that is suppose to mean.... It means the same thing whether
you have two Crossbow, or GRT, or BMI, or XYZ company AHRS.
Least this degrade into a who's AHRS is better than who's else's, just
suffice it to say that there are primary instruments and backup or secondary
ones. If you want true redundancy, you need two separate system, on
separate power supplies sharing no components in common.
Alan
Ps. I'm getting a little tired about the competitive finger pointing that
goes on around EFIS systems. They each have their pluses and minuses.
Determine your mission profile and wallet book allowance and buy what you
want. For me that was one that was based upon a certified software suite -
yes, I bought a Chelton for my Lancair Legacy. Yes they found an issue with
the AHRS, but that's no different than any of the other vendors. Course
there is one exception - my G1000 182... It's been a rock for over 170 hours
so far.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck
Jensen
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 3:34 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EFIS Comparisons
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Chuck Jensen"
--> <cjensen@dts9000.com>
No, No, No. You want need a single AHRS to drive the dual EFIS
display. Then you want an independent, unrelated 'save your undies'
system as a backup.
As an example....if you have two Crossbow AHRS, what do you have?
For Brian's benefit, I can report a single AHRS drives both GRT EFIS units
with 100% live-time for 300 hours.
Chuck Jensen
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray"
<Bruce@glasair.org>
No, No, No. You want dual AHRS, with an electronic comparator hopefully.
No
if it's a VFR ONLY airplane, anything goes.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
sportav8r@aol.com
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 11:28 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EFIS Comparisons
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com
Brian-
with the GRT will you really need two of everything to have EFIS in the back
seat? I can't see why dual screens and single AHRS wouldn't work. At about
$9k, there would still be the price advantage over BMA.
I'm an outsider looking in on this technology (currently fitting a new panel
blank for dual GRT with Dynon backup) so I may well be overlooking
something...
-Bill B
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Sent: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 07:27:20 -0800
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EFIS Comparisons
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd
<brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Craig Payne wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Craig Payne"
<craig@craigandjean.com>
>
> Well, there was a minor tiff between Bob and Greg Richter of Blue
Mountain
> Avionics:
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/richter/richter.html
It is interesting. I spent the better part of a day with Greg trying to get
the feel for the Blue Mountain EFIS-1 as I am considering it for my CJ6A
project. (Airframe and pneumatics done. Engine, prop, electrical system,
glass, and paint to go.)
Greg's biggest lament is how his tech support gets eaten up by installation
and wiring problems. I can understand why he would want to do something
about that as it costs him money when someone's EFIS-1 doesn't work for
whatever reason.
Greg's approach to the problem is simplicity. The less there is, the less
can go wrong or be made to go wrong. I agree that the KISS principle is
generally a good thing.
One thing I did find interesting is that his box drops off-line at about
9V-10V. It won't ride through cranking the engine on a 14V electrical
system. He was working on a backup battery approach to provide power to
EFIS-1 so it would stay alive while the engine was cranked. He prefers
aircraft have a 28V electrical system as he then has just that much more
margin before hitting that 9v-10v point. This didn't matter to me in the
CJ6A because:
1. it is a 28V system;
2. there is no electrical starter so there will never be that level of drain
from the battery.
I consider this to be non-problem for me and a potential problem for
everyone who is planning to install an EFIS-1 in their OBAM aircraft with a
14V electrical system and an electric starter. Do the other PFD
manufacturers have this problem? I don't know but it is something to
consider in your installation. (And for all I know Greg has solved the
problem but I haven't looked for over a year.)
What I don't get is why there should be any kind of rancor between Greg and
Bob. Bob emphasized wiring aircraft in a workman-like manner using the
proper materials to ensure that the system is mechanically and electrically
sound with no single point of failure. If builders really do what Bob
suggests, their electrical systems should be exceedingly reliable and
eliminate the kinds of problems that Greg has been experiencing.
And Greg can't blame Bob when someone chooses to do a poor job. That doesn't
make Bob's information any less correct.
As for the argument about understanding electrical systems, I don't think it
is all that hard. (But then, I started building radios at age 7 so I
probably don't count.) I do know that building an airplane requires one to
become conversant with any number of technologies upon which one's life will
depend after the wheels have left Terra firma. The electrical system is just
one such. I have always applauded the AeroElectric Connection because it is
so thorough in presenting the basics. (Even if Bob still prefers silicon to
Schottky isolation diodes for the EB.) Learning electricity to the point
where you can understand your electrical system is no harder than having to
learn the FARs (easier in fact because electricity makes sense under all
conditions) or learn to fly on instruments and certainly no worse that
understanding your fuel system, hydraulic system, control surface balance
and rigging, fabric application, etc.
Albert Einstein once said it very succinctly:
"Things should be made as simple as possible,
and no simpler."
Now, as for my choice for a PFD/MFD EFIS I am still leaning toward the Blue
Mountain EFIS-1. I have a tandem cockpit aircraft and need to provide
instrumentation to both cockpits. I can do it with the EFIS-1 just by adding
a second display. It has what I need to be able to fly an ILS. (I consider
basic-IFR capability to be a must in any aircraft as it enhances my ability
to complete a flight safely. YMMV) It provides full engine monitoring. My
backup will be a standard 3-pack of steam gauges, i.e. altimeter, AI, and
airspeed, or perhaps a Dynon D-10. Of course there will be a whiskey
compass. My perception is that EFIS-1 will reduce my wiring requirements.
But the Jury is still out. There are lots of companies coming along with
very nice PFDs and engine monitoring. I am considering GRT also but that
would entail two of everything to equip both cockpits and their price
advantage is pretty well lost at that point. Dynon is amazingly inexpensive
for what you get and is probably how I would go when equipping an aircraft
where cost is the real object and there are real estate issues. (I wish the
Dynon had been around when I was doing the panel in my RV-4.)
Those are my thoughts. They are worth every penny you paid for them. ;-)
--
Brian Lloyd 2243 Cattle Dr.
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 36
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|
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: WRBYARS@aol.com
Pilots,
Send this to OTHER PILOTS and YOUR NON-FLYING FRIENDS. Then go to the AOPA
site listed below and give the
FAA your input.
Thanks.
Since 9/11, pilots are required to follow rules that most motorists would
consider ludicrous.
The analogy below describes what it takes to fly into an Air Defense
Identification Zone (ADIZ).
An ADIZ presently exists all around Washington D.C. The federal Aviation
Administration wants to make the Washington ADIZ permanent.
All MAJOR U.S. CITIES COULD BE NEXT.
Scenario...
Because of the Oklahoma City truck bombing, a law is passed that everyone
within 75 miles of any large city must place a call for every car trip they
make and give your name, car make, license plate number, what time you will be
leaving, specifically where you are going, and exactly when you expect to
arrive.
You will be given a number which you must write on a card and display in the
window for your entire drive. You will be given a time you can leave, and
what roads you are to follow.
You will need to call a traffic cop on your cell phone prior to leaving,
during the trip, and until you reach your destination. You will be required to
stay in constant communication. They will tell you when you are okay to enter
that 75 mile radius, and then you will talk to them for the entire drive,
including following any new instructions.
Now... If you take a wrong turn, fail to display the card properly, fail to
follow the traffic cop's instructions, lose cell phone coverage, or any of a
whole host of other things occur such as mechanical problems, you can lose
your drivers license, and possibly be arrested. If your cell phone signal
fades, the traffic cop gives confusing or contradictory instructions, or a little
dirt or sun glare makes the card hard to read, that is entirely your problem
to correct, or deal with the consequences.
If you drive a motorcycle and can't figure a way to mount the card or hear
the cell phone over the motor and wind noise, that is your problem.
If you get really lost and blunder into the wrong neighborhood, they might
blow up your car with you in it. Deadly force is not only likely, but
recommended.
You will have to do this everywhere you go, even if you pull into the street
to let you spouse out of the driveway. This is for every single-destination
trip. If you are running errands, you must treat each leg as a separate trip.
Good luck dealing with the authorities if you plan to depart or arrive
anywhere that doesn't have a traditional driveway or parking lot.
All skateboards, scooters, sleds, wagons, bicycles and tricycles are
prohibited within that 75 miles.
Sound ludicrous? Welcome to a fliers world.
Small airplanes follow these restrictions every day in the ADIZ areas even
though it is widely recognized that most general aviation aircraft cannot
carry enough explosives to create damage even close to the explosion in OKC.
Trucks however, are still allowed to drive right up to the front of most
office buildings. Any terrorist (aka idiot) can rent one, from Ryder.
All pilots are in favor of national security but there is a right way and a
wrong way to acquire it.
Creating a permanent ADIZ is the wrong way.
Aircraft first, then soon, automobiles.
The FAA has extended the ADIZ public comment period until February 6, 2006,
and will hold an AOPA-requested public meeting on its plan to make the
Washington, D.C., Air Defense Identification Zone (ADIZ) permanent.
("AOPA" is the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association.)
You can contact the FAA and voice your protest to this permanent ADIZ by
going to:
_http://www.aopa.org/adizalert/_ (http://www.aopa.org/adizalert/)
Thank you for your time, please act now.
Jay Carpenter
President - Texas Aviation Association
512-454-5455
_president@txaa.org_ (mailto:president@txaa.org)
_www.txaa.org_ (http://www.txaa.org)
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: EFIS Comparisons |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Bruce Gray wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
>
> No, No, No. You want dual AHRS, with an electronic comparator hopefully. No
> if it's a VFR ONLY airplane, anything goes.
My brain is the comparator. I have to compare the display from the
EFIS-1 to the Dynon or 3-pack and make a decision as to which is right.
Brian Lloyd
brian-yak at lloyd dot com
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re:Oil Pressure warning light and hobbs driver? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
Summit Racing also has the VDO dual sender for $26:
http://tinyurl.com/c2mfw
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of T.
Graziano
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 9:39 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re:Oil Pressure warning light and hobbs driver?
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "T. Graziano"
--> <tonyplane@bellsouth.net>
I may be wrong, but I believe the Rotac has a VDO Oil Pressure sender whcih
can be bought with two sender terminals - one terminal has an off/on switch
and the other has a variable resistor.
This is how I did it on the Jab 3000A, which came with two pick-ups on its
VDO sender.
The pickup labled WK on the VDO sender stands for warning contact, aka
"idiot light" pickup. This contact is normally closed with no oil pressure
and opens at about 8 psi. (The other pick up "feeds" the oil pressure
guage)
I installed a Radio Shcck PN 275-248 relay "velcroed" on the top of the
Hobbs (the relay is very small and rated for 10A at 24V). I wired the VDO
WK terminal to the NO coil pick up of the relay and the other relay coil
pickup wired to the master bus for its 12V pickup when the master is turned
on. This 12V wire is also spliced to feed into the COM of the relay. I then
wired the relay such that a wire from the NO on the relay fed to the + lead
of a red 12 V 1/4 in dia Radio Shack LED installed on the panel (the - lead
of the LED goes to ground). This LED lights up with the master switch ON
when there is zero or less than about 8 psi pressure. Another wire feeds
into the + of the Hobbs from the NC pickup of the relay. Another wire goes
from the - of the Hobbs to ground.
When there is Oil Press, the WK contact of the VDO opens and then the relay
switches the voltage/current to the Hobbs.
In summary. Zero or less than about 8 psi gives "idiot light" on panel.
On engine start, "idiot light" goes out (unless you have a problem) and
Hobbs starts running.
The relay and LED are very inexpensive. If you are unsure how to wire
them, study the diagram on the relay package, wire everything up on the
bench, and play with the combination.
Tony Graziano, Buchanan, Tn
Zodiac 601XL N493TG
-------------------
AeroElectric-List message posted by: <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
>
>I have a Rotax 914 powering our Europa XS Monowheel. The oil pressure
>sender changes from 0 ohms to 200 ohms.
>
>Does any one make a device that that will turn on a light when oil
>pressure is low, and turn on a electric hobbs when oil pressure is up?
>
>Or a kit or plans?
Message 39
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| Subject: | EFIS Comparisons |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Chuck Jensen" <cjensen@dts9000.com>
Alan,
This was just poking a bit of fun at the idea of two AHRS giving one
true redundancy. In the case of the reference to the Crossbow AHRS,
right now if you have two....you have none, since the AD has taken them
out of service due to an identified deficiency which can make them
fail--hence unreliable for IFR work. So, in this instance, having two
of the same thing doesn't double your reliability.
Note: This was not a slam on the Crossbow. Just recognition that they
have a problem right now that they are working to resolve. How they fix
it and how they interact with their customers which they have
inconvenienced will be more revealing of their character than any flaw
that might have been missed despite certification testing and their best
design and QA efforts. Stuff happens.
To close out these ramblings, two of something, especially of the same
thing, does not constitute true redundancy of systems as they may share
the same fail-points.
Chuck Jensen
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alan K. Adamson"
<aadamson@highrf.com>
QUOTE: As an example....if you have two Crossbow AHRS, what do you have?
END QUOTE:
Not sure what that is suppose to mean.... It means the same thing
whether
you have two Crossbow, or GRT, or BMI, or XYZ company AHRS.
Message 40
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|
| Subject: | Re: Solder Station |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
Re: Sal Ammoniac--
Yes it's around. I keep a roll of yellow "Caution: Hazardous Chemical Spill" warning
tape around for when we need to use it. When a hot iron hits Sal Ammoniac,
it turns in to ammonia gas and hydrochloric acid vapor. Does a great job of
cleaning. And when the workers get sick, we just call INS and have them set
back across the border.
Re: Chore Boys. These are available everywhere from your local grocer to the hardware
store. Yes "Chore Boy" is a trade name for....ah.....whatever they're called.
Eric M. Jones
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones@charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3741#3741
Message 41
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| Subject: | Re: alternator b-lead bundled with engine computer |
wiring
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Doug Windhorn" <N1deltawhiskey@comcast.net>
Mickey,
OK, understand the arrangement as alternator No.6 B-lead connected to the
starter along with the wire from the battery. This is how I would have done
it.
No.6 from the battery to the starter seems a little light for starter
currents, though, but if it works .... I am using No.2 up to a firewall
pass-through.
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mickey Coggins" <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
Sent: Friday, 13 January, 2006 12:52
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: alternator b-lead bundled with engine
computer wiring
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins
> <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
>
> Hi Doug,
>
> Thanks a lot for your question.
>
> I've got a fat wire (AWG#6) running from the batteries to my
> starter, so that's where I'm hooking in the alternator B
> lead. I thought about hooking up the B lead to the main
> bus, but I was not comfortable with the load the alternator
> would put on the AWG#10 wire I have hooking up that bus
> to the batteries.
>
> Using Bob's figure 8-4, which shows AWG vs. amps of
> continuous current and plots temperature increase, I
> felt that #6 was the smallest size that would comfortably
> hold the load that I expect the alternator to need to
> generate (about 40 amps) based on my theoretical load
> analysis. I used pretty conservative numbers for the
> load analysis, so hopefully the actual load on my little
> 55 amp alternator is closer to 30 amps. I have electric
> fuel pumps and the automotive engine computer that I
> need to keep running, and they both use quite a lot of
> current.
>
> Also, being "Mr. Security", as my wife calls me, I plan
> to fly with my wig-wags and strobes on all the time.
> The rest of the stuff is almost negligible compared to
> the previous four items.
>
> This is my current design. If you have any suggestions,
> tips, or advice I'm all ears!
>
> http://www.rv8.ch/article.php?story=20041121101637759
>
> Thanks again for your help.
>
> Mickey
>
> Doug Windhorn wrote:
>> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Doug Windhorn"
>> <N1deltawhiskey@comcast.net>
>>
>> Mickey,
>>
>> Don't understand why you are running the B-lead to the baggage area
>> batteries. How do you get power to the panel by running a lead from the
>> batteries to the panel/firewall area? If so, why not connect the B-lead
>> to
>> that end of the buss?
>>
>> Doug Windhorn
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Mickey Coggins" <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
>> To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Friday, 13 January, 2006 8:26
>> Subject: AeroElectric-List: alternator b-lead bundled with engine
>> computer
>> wiring
>>
>>
>>
>>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins
>>><mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
>>>
>>>Hi Listers,
>>>
>>>I'm trying to finalize my firewall penetrations,
>>>and one convenient way would be to have one
>>>"towel bar" type hole in the firewall with all
>>>my wires. This would include the fat wire from
>>>the alternator B-lead going back to the batteries
>>>in the rear baggage area.
>>>
>>>Do you expect any problems if I have all these
>>>wires, including the wires from my engine computer
>>>to my spark plug coils, fuel injector solenoids,
>>>various crank position sensors, electric prop
>>>controller, and various pressure transducers?
>>>
>>>Many thanks for your advice!
>>>--
>
>
> --
> Mickey Coggins
> http://www.rv8.ch/
> #82007 finishing
>
>
> do not archive
>
>
>
Message 42
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| Subject: | EFIS Comparisons |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alan K. Adamson" <aadamson@highrf.com>
Yes, but Chuck, let's make sure we have the correct information... The
certified version, the Crossbow 500 which ships in the certified Chelton
(and others), does *NOT* have the problem. There currently exists *NO* AD,
that I'm aware of.
The experimental EFIS companies that utilize the 425 series crossbow AHRS,
do have a problem, but it only exists as a service letter from crossbow at
the moment. Because there are none of these in certified airplanes, there
will never be an AD issued. So, this makes the crossbow problem, no
different than the "leaning" problem that BMA, Dynon, GRT, etc have at any
moments notice. You are advised of the problem, suggested that you use the
equipment for VFR only, but not grounded.
http://www.d2av.com/news_images/Service_Letter_NAV425_010506.pdf
Alan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck
Jensen
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 4:54 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EFIS Comparisons
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Chuck Jensen"
--> <cjensen@dts9000.com>
Alan,
This was just poking a bit of fun at the idea of two AHRS giving one true
redundancy. In the case of the reference to the Crossbow AHRS, right now if
you have two....you have none, since the AD has taken them out of service
due to an identified deficiency which can make them fail--hence unreliable
for IFR work. So, in this instance, having two of the same thing doesn't
double your reliability.
Note: This was not a slam on the Crossbow. Just recognition that they have
a problem right now that they are working to resolve. How they fix it and
how they interact with their customers which they have inconvenienced will
be more revealing of their character than any flaw that might have been
missed despite certification testing and their best design and QA efforts.
Stuff happens.
To close out these ramblings, two of something, especially of the same
thing, does not constitute true redundancy of systems as they may share the
same fail-points.
Chuck Jensen
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alan K. Adamson"
<aadamson@highrf.com>
QUOTE: As an example....if you have two Crossbow AHRS, what do you have?
END QUOTE:
Not sure what that is suppose to mean.... It means the same thing whether
you have two Crossbow, or GRT, or BMI, or XYZ company AHRS.
Message 43
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| Subject: | Re: Solder Station |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jerry Grimmonpre" <jerry@mc.net>
Many thanks to the aeroelectric-list ... and appreciation for the
contributors to the "Solder Station" thread.
To sum up ... it went like this: "all we want to do is melt solder neatly,
cost effectively and efficiently". With this in mind the KISS method
pointed to ... "get the soldering skills up high and the cost low". That
led to Radio Shack because they have low cost supplies. Their Mini Butane
Gas Powered Iron is my choice for the heavy stuff. It's Model: 64-2188 ....
20 bucks. For the small to medium size wires there are several watt sizes.
Those from 40w down to 15w ... under 10 bucks.
For 30 bucks you're in the soldering business, now just practice ... oh! and
don't forget the stainless steel scrubbers
This list is the greatest thing since sliced bread, thanks.
Regards ...
Jerry Grimmonpre'
Message 44
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| Subject: | Re: EFIS Comparisons |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Schroeder" <jschroeder@perigee.net>
Brian -
We have the EFIS/ONE and the Dynon D-10A as the backup. So far, it has
been fairly straight forward to install and check out. I just wish we
didn't have to fool around with all those pesky voltage dividers. There
are 18 resistors and a bunch of connections to add to the parts count.
Since we want to fly and file IFR, the major concern we have is putting
too many functions in one box (EFIS/ONE CPU). We decided against having
the BMA autopilot and installed a TruTrak DFC-250. This is controlled for
navigation purposes by a separate, certified IFR enroute and terminal
GPS/Com/Nav. The BMA GPS is simply not very powerful, especially with
entering and storing flight plans and is not certified for IFR navigation.
We wired the GPS to a separate CDI for legal IFR approaches. To make the
EFIS/ONE capable of monitoring a 6 cyl Continental, we would have had to
buy the extra card and still not have the value of features dedicated
engine data monitors, such as lean find. So we installed a JPI EDM 700 for
that. We also tapped off an oil pressure sender to run both the Hobbs and
a low oil pressure light. Finally, we installed a Proprietary Systems
Software AOA that is separate from most everything except the pitot and
systems.
Just another approach by two other OBAM builders. We did install Bob's
Z-14 as written.
Good to have you back on this list.
John Schroeder
Lancair ES - Painting
On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 13:11:36 -0800, Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
wrote:
> You sound like you are on the right track. I am debating between a Dynon
> D-10 and a 3-pack for my backup. Decisions, decisions ...
--
Message 45
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| Subject: | Re: EFIS Comparisons |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Brinker" <brinker@cox-internet.com>
The GRT will also display the HSI from the SL30. And will tune the
SL30 from the MFD. Not to mention ILS and Localizer And will display your
engine monitor to either display you choose. Not sure how you get 6k for
engine monitoring. Last I checked a 6cyl was around $1100 with EIS and
probes. GRT is very helpful if there is a way to make it work they will try.
I have a KLN90B gps that Todd is trying figure out if it will work with
they're system now. It looks favorable, I am keeping my fingures and toes
crossed.
Randy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Lloyd" <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 3:11 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EFIS Comparisons
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
>
> sportav8r@aol.com wrote:
>> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com
>>
>> Brian-
>>
>> with the GRT will you really need two of everything to have EFIS in the
>> back seat? I can't see why dual screens and single AHRS wouldn't work.
>> At about $9k, there would still be the price advantage over BMA.
>
> You forgot to add in the engine monitor function. I am not sure they
> support two displays for that. If I have to put in two engine monitors I
> have to add another $6000 for that. Now I am up to $15,000.
>
> In addition, I have a 9-cyl radial engine. That means 9xCHT and 9xEGT.
> The GRT engine monitor does not appear to meet my needs. Greg has
> assured me that the BMA EFIS-1 can handle a 9-cyl engine.
>
> Also, the BMA EFIS-1 performs as an HSI to display the nav data from my
> NavCom for VOR and ILS navigation thus eliminating the need for a
> VOR/ILS head. That is more hardware I don't have to buy and it gets
> repeated to the back seat. Useful if the GIB wants to fly the approach
> or if I am instructing and want to monitor the VOR/ILS needles.
>
> Basically an EFIS-1 with an Apollo/Garmin SL-30 NavCom and a transponder
> is a complete panel for the airplane. All I have to do is add enough to
> provide backup to make myself comfortable. If I have a Dynon or a
> 3-pack, I can use the built-in CDI display on the SL-30 to fly a LOC or
> VOR approach even if the EFIS-1 packs it in. I have reduced capability
> but should still be safe.
>
>> I'm an outsider looking in on this technology (currently fitting a new
>> panel blank for dual GRT with Dynon backup) so I may well be overlooking
>> something...
>
> You sound like you are on the right track. I am debating between a Dynon
> D-10 and a 3-pack for my backup. Decisions, decisions ...
>
> Brian Lloyd
> brian-yak at lloyd dot com
>
>
>
Message 46
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| Subject: | Re: EFIS Comparisons |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com
In a message dated 1/13/2006 5:06:21 P.M. Central Standard Time,
harley@agelesswings.com writes:
Can't let it go without mentioning these new guys based right down the
field from my hangar:
http://xerionavionix.com/
Harley Dixon
Long EZ N28EZ
Canandaigua, NY
Good Evening Harley,
It sure looked good at Oshkosh. How are they doing?
Do Not Archive
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
Message 47
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| Subject: | Re: EFIS Comparisons |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Brinker" <brinker@cox-internet.com>
Just curious, why a separate CDI for IFR approahes if the BMA
show's CDI on screen ?
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Schroeder" <jschroeder@perigee.net>
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 4:50 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EFIS Comparisons
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Schroeder"
> <jschroeder@perigee.net>
>
> Brian -
>
> We have the EFIS/ONE and the Dynon D-10A as the backup. So far, it has
> been fairly straight forward to install and check out. I just wish we
> didn't have to fool around with all those pesky voltage dividers. There
> are 18 resistors and a bunch of connections to add to the parts count.
>
> Since we want to fly and file IFR, the major concern we have is putting
> too many functions in one box (EFIS/ONE CPU). We decided against having
> the BMA autopilot and installed a TruTrak DFC-250. This is controlled for
> navigation purposes by a separate, certified IFR enroute and terminal
> GPS/Com/Nav. The BMA GPS is simply not very powerful, especially with
> entering and storing flight plans and is not certified for IFR navigation.
> We wired the GPS to a separate CDI for legal IFR approaches. To make the
> EFIS/ONE capable of monitoring a 6 cyl Continental, we would have had to
> buy the extra card and still not have the value of features dedicated
> engine data monitors, such as lean find. So we installed a JPI EDM 700 for
> that. We also tapped off an oil pressure sender to run both the Hobbs and
> a low oil pressure light. Finally, we installed a Proprietary Systems
> Software AOA that is separate from most everything except the pitot and
> systems.
>
> Just another approach by two other OBAM builders. We did install Bob's
> Z-14 as written.
>
> Good to have you back on this list.
>
> John Schroeder
> Lancair ES - Painting
>
>
> On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 13:11:36 -0800, Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
> wrote:
>
>> You sound like you are on the right track. I am debating between a Dynon
>> D-10 and a 3-pack for my backup. Decisions, decisions ...
>
>
> --
>
>
>
Message 48
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| Subject: | Re: Solder Station |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
>
> My most valuable suggestion is to AVOID the wet sponge
> mess and use a stainless steel chore-boy stuffed into a
> heavy pipe to clean your tip. I wish I'd know about this
> years earlier.
We use the sponges here but they MUST be cellulose.
Real sponge and plastics are not suited to the task.
Cleaning section of any grocery store has a 3-pak
of cellulose sponges for $1 or so.
Bob . . .
Message 49
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|
| Subject: | Re: Common Grounding |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 07:23 AM 1/13/2006 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
>
>Rick
>
>Snip...>does this offer any advantage over a long aluminum bar? Seems
>aluminum would be slightly lighter, cheaper....
>
>The electric power company uses aluminum drops to your house, but for the
>grounding they use copper/zinc/etc. This is because aluminum is fine for
>higher voltages with the proper joints and anti-oxide goops, but to
>guarantee the ground won't float a couple volts is impossible with
>aluminum connections, and a real mess with low voltage, high current
>connections. The right way to do it would be to use aluminum
>bar/strap/whatever and a welded on aluminum-copper transition endpiece.
>(Google "aluminum copper transition"). Alternatively, copper or
>copper-clad-aluminum is your best bet.
>
>If you use Perihelion Design's Super-CCA for ground, you can strip off the
>insulation to save a bit more.
>
>If you choose to use plain aluminum...expect mysterious ground problems
>and the retrofit of a real ground at your first annual....
We need to make a distinction between aluminum strip having
the necessary cross section to replace an equal length of other
wire and the classic aluminum wire used by the power distribution
industry.
A strip of alclad aluminum is no more difficult to work with than
to simply use your aluminum airframe as a ground system. We use
airframe grounds all over the airplanes at RAC and this is not
an automatic recipe for problems. It's really coarse/soft
aluminum in the old wire that make it difficult to achieve
gas tight joints and the coarse stranding is particularly vulnerable
to vibration issues.
The fine stranding of Eric's copper-clad wires combined with the
solder and crimp friendly copper surface alleviates all the issues
with the older wire but it doesn't preclude consideration of
a continuous, flat aluminum strip especially when they can be covered
up with glass and epoxy.
Bob . . .
Message 50
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| Subject: | Re: EFIS Comparisons |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Schroeder" <jschroeder@perigee.net>
There has been a series of discussions of this on the BMA Discussion
Board. Check there. YOU have to have a certified CDI to display the
certified GPS information if you want to fly IFR enroute and IFR GPS
approaches. EAA also has a paper on the subject.
On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 17:18:50 -0600, Brinker <brinker@cox-internet.com>
wrote:
> Just curious, why a separate CDI for IFR approahes if the BMA
> show's CDI on screen ?
--
Message 51
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| Subject: | Re: EFIS Comparisons |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Harley <harley@agelesswings.com>
>>How are they doing?<<
Well...they're new! <G>
I haven't been back there in awhile, what with winter and all, but the
last time I was, they were discussing the installation of their unit in
a couple of local birds for testing, and to train the two pilots so they
could be field reps, I would guess.
The VP stopped in to see my plane, and tried to talk me into one, as
well, but I have already purchased another brand ...and I probably
wouldn't be installing it in a time frame that they could use.
He did tell me that they are looking at certification for one of their
models in April or May. Then they'll have units available for both
certified and non-certified installations.
They have an assembly/test area and offices set up on the second floor
of the main hangar at Canandaigua. Still pretty small...but that's how
flying started, didn't it? <G>
Harley
BobsV35B@aol.com wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com
>
>
>
>In a message dated 1/13/2006 5:06:21 P.M. Central Standard Time,
>harley@agelesswings.com writes:
>
>Can't let it go without mentioning these new guys based right down the
>field from my hangar:
>
>http://xerionavionix.com/
>
>Harley Dixon
>Long EZ N28EZ
>Canandaigua, NY
>
>
>Good Evening Harley,
>
>It sure looked good at Oshkosh. How are they doing?
>
>Do Not Archive
>
>Happy Skies,
>
>Old Bob
>AKA
>Bob Siegfried
>Ancient Aviator
>Stearman N3977A
>Brookeridge Air Park LL22
>Downers Grove, IL 60516
>630 985-8503
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 52
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| Subject: | Re: EFIS Comparisons |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Schroeder" <jschroeder@perigee.net>
I know that the GAMI & Advanced Pilot Seminar guys are very interested in
this engine monitor. They think it has the potential to be one of the
best, if not the best, on the market.
John Schroeder
Do not archive
On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 21:00:00 -0500, Harley <harley@AgelessWings.com> wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Harley <harley@agelesswings.com>
>
> >>How are they doing?<<
>
> Well...they're new! <G>
>
> I haven't been back there in awhile, what with winter and all, but the
> last time I was, they were discussing the installation of their unit in
> a couple of local birds for testing, and to train the two pilots so they
> could be field reps, I would guess.
>
> The VP stopped in to see my plane, and tried to talk me into one, as
> well, but I have already purchased another brand ...and I probably
> wouldn't be installing it in a time frame that they could use.
>
> He did tell me that they are looking at certification for one of their
> models in April or May. Then they'll have units available for both
> certified and non-certified installations.
>
> They have an assembly/test area and offices set up on the second floor
> of the main hangar at Canandaigua. Still pretty small...but that's how
> flying started, didn't it? <G>
>
> Harley
>
> BobsV35B@aol.com wrote:
>
>> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com
>>
>>
>>
>> In a message dated 1/13/2006 5:06:21 P.M. Central Standard Time,
>> harley@agelesswings.com writes:
>>
>> Can't let it go without mentioning these new guys based right down the
>> field from my hangar:
>>
>> http://xerionavionix.com/
>>
>> Harley Dixon
>> Long EZ N28EZ
>> Canandaigua, NY
>>
>>
>>
>> Good Evening Harley,
>>
>> It sure looked good at Oshkosh. How are they doing?
>>
>> Do Not Archive
>>
>> Happy Skies,
>>
>> Old Bob
>> AKA
>> Bob Siegfried
>> Ancient Aviator
>> Stearman N3977A
>> Brookeridge Air Park LL22
>> Downers Grove, IL 60516
>> 630 985-8503
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
--
Message 53
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| Subject: | Re: EFIS Comparisons |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alan K. Adamson" <aadamson@highrf.com>
John, I might be wrong and just went to look on the BMA site. I didn't find
anything specifically, nor did I find it on or searching around the EAA
site.
Can you post a link? You sure you aren't confusing the issue of using the
BMA with a CNX-480 and the fact that you can't get all the nav signals that
are needed, some most are using an external head?
The link to specifics would help if you could please? I'm curious as well
as I'm going down the road to a chelton panel for a Legacy and want to make
sure I don't mess up. Guys at D2AV say I don't need and external CDI...
Alan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John
Schroeder
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 8:55 PM
Subject: Re: ***SPAM*** Re: AeroElectric-List: EFIS Comparisons
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Schroeder"
--> <jschroeder@perigee.net>
There has been a series of discussions of this on the BMA Discussion Board.
Check there. YOU have to have a certified CDI to display the certified GPS
information if you want to fly IFR enroute and IFR GPS approaches. EAA also
has a paper on the subject.
On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 17:18:50 -0600, Brinker <brinker@cox-internet.com>
wrote:
> Just curious, why a separate CDI for IFR approahes if the
> BMA show's CDI on screen ?
--
Message 54
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| Subject: | Re: Common Grounding |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
Rick said: Snip...>>does this offer any advantage over a long aluminum bar? Seems
aluminum would be slightly lighter, cheaper....
Eric Said: >>The electric power company uses aluminum drops to your house, but
for the grounding they use copper/zinc/etc. This is because aluminum is fine for
higher voltages with the proper joints and anti-oxide goops, but to guarantee
the ground won't float a couple volts is impossible with aluminum connections,
and a real mess with low voltage, high current connections. The right way
to do it would be to use aluminum
bar/strap/whatever and a welded on aluminum-copper transition endpiece. (Google
"aluminum copper transition"). Alternatively, copper or
copper-clad-aluminum is your best bet.
If you choose to use plain aluminum...expect mysterious ground problems and the
retrofit of a real ground at your first annual....
Bob N, Said>>
We need to make a distinction between aluminum strip having
the necessary cross section to replace an equal length of other
wire and the classic aluminum wire used by the power distribution
industry.
A strip of alclad aluminum is no more difficult to work with than
to simply use your aluminum airframe as a ground system. We use
airframe grounds all over the airplanes at RAC and this is not
an automatic recipe for problems. It's really coarse/soft
aluminum in the old wire that make it difficult to achieve
gas tight joints and the coarse stranding is particularly vulnerable
to vibration issues.
Eric Says: Bob, It's true that metal aircraft use the skin as a conductor, for
lighting and antennas, but I would guess where grounding is a big concern, like
sensors and complex electronics a copper ground is added. That's also why remote
industrial sensors are usually current loops, not voltage levels.
The forest of tabs is such a good idea...single point grounds.
Earlier Charlie Asked: >>I've often wondered if the 'aluminum brazing' products
hyped at flyins & available at welding shops could be used to transition from
AL bar stock to a copper tab for mechanical connections. They are supposed to
work on 'most non-ferrous metals'. This might accomplish Rick's goal of light,
cheap, simple, safe. Is that worth exploring?
Eric Says: The melting points of aluminum and copper are so different that successfully
joining the two is not a matter for the amateur. I'm guessing that the
required tools are generally outside the range of homebuilders.
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones@charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3831#3831
Message 55
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| Subject: | Re: EFIS Comparisons |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bob C. " <flyboy.bob@gmail.com>
I'm pretty sure you can use a GNS430 without a CDI for GPS Enroute and
Approach? . . . It has a "CDI" of sorts built in. I plan to use the EHSI
function of the BMA Lite for ILS and or VOR CDI function and I believe that
is OK too? The GPS in the "Lite" should make a nice backup too.
Regards,
Bob
On 1/13/06, John Schroeder <jschroeder@perigee.net> wrote:
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Schroeder" <
> jschroeder@perigee.net>
>
> There has been a series of discussions of this on the BMA Discussion
> Board. Check there. YOU have to have a certified CDI to display the
> certified GPS information if you want to fly IFR enroute and IFR GPS
> approaches. EAA also has a paper on the subject.
>
>
> On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 17:18:50 -0600, Brinker <brinker@cox-internet.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Just curious, why a separate CDI for IFR approahes if the BMA
> > show's CDI on screen ?
>
>
> --
>
>
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