---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 01/25/06: 28 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:33 AM - Re: 3 conductor AWG18 cable (Mickey Coggins) 2. 03:56 AM - Re: Avionics and essential Buss? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 3. 04:15 AM - Re: Avionics and essential Buss? (Vern W.) 4. 04:37 AM - Re: Avionics and essential Buss? (LarryRobertHelming) 5. 04:59 AM - Re: Re: Pitot Heat Indicator Color? (Bill Denton) 6. 05:22 AM - Re: Peak current handling of S604 gold "DB" style contacts (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 05:24 AM - Re: Re: Pitot Heat Indicator Color? (Tim Dawson-Townsend) 8. 05:37 AM - Re: Alternator output wire size (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 9. 05:41 AM - Re: Alternator output wire size (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 05:50 AM - Re: Alternator output wire size (Ken) 11. 06:37 AM - AP signal source annunciator LEDs (rd2@evenlink.com) 12. 07:02 AM - Re: AP signal source annunciator LEDs (Bruce Gray) 13. 07:14 AM - Re: AP signal source annunciator LEDs (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 14. 08:23 AM - Re: Avionics and essential Buss? (D Wysong) 15. 08:31 AM - Re: EGT/CHT thermocouple cable (sportav8r@aol.com) 16. 08:50 AM - Re: EGT/CHT thermocouple cable (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 17. 09:42 AM - Re: Alternator output wire size (Dan Beadle) 18. 09:42 AM - Re: AP signal source annunciator LEDs (rd2@evenlink.com) 19. 09:45 AM - Re: AP signal source annunciator LEDs (rd2@evenlink.com) 20. 09:55 AM - Re: AP signal source annunciator LEDs (Bruce Gray) 21. 01:57 PM - Re: Re: Pitot Heat Indicator Color? (Scott) 22. 03:46 PM - GPS Ground plane (Giffen Marr) 23. 04:49 PM - Re: GPS Ground plane (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 24. 05:25 PM - Re: Peak current handling of S604 gold "DB" style (James Foerster) 25. 06:47 PM - Re: EGT/CHT thermocouple cable (sportav8r@aol.com) 26. 07:51 PM - GPS antennas (Richard Sipp) 27. 08:07 PM - Re: GPS antennas (Alan K. Adamson) 28. 11:39 PM - Re: Alternator output wire size (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Mich=E8le_Delsol?=) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:33:50 AM PST US From: Mickey Coggins Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 3 conductor AWG18 cable --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins These guys have it: http://www.strobesnmore.com/ Mickey Michle Delsol wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mich=E8le_Delsol?= > > I am looking for 3 conductor AWG18 cable to hook up the strobe lights. > Steinair does not have it =96 does any one have a thought on a source for > this? > > > > Thanks, > > Michele > > RV8 fuselage > > -- Mickey Coggins http://www.rv8.ch/ #82007 finishing do not archive ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:56:57 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Avionics and essential Buss? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 05:49 AM 1/25/2006 +0000, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: > >Working on schametic for Europa Rotax 914. > >2 Questions: > >1) What is the benefit to installing a Avionics Buss master switch when >all the Avionics have a switch of their own? Good question. A better question yet is "What benefit is the avionics master switch at all beyond some convenience factor?" The "need" for an avionics master was ill-conceived and the first place and much fertilized with myth and reverence for tradition since. See: http://aeroelectric.com/articles/avmaster.pdf >2) What does and does not belongs on a Essential Buss? ENDURANCE bus is the better term. See chapter 17 of the 'Connection. Bob . . . < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:15:51 AM PST US From: "Vern W." Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Avionics and essential Buss? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Vern W." 2 Questions: > > 1) What is the benefit to installing a Avionics Buss master switch when > all the Avionics have a switch of their own? None. An avionics master switch is nothing more than a place to have a single point of failure that would wipe out ALL your avionics at one time. 2) What does and does not belongs on a Essential Buss? All you want on the essential buss are those things that allow you to get to a place to land safely. How much that ends up being depends a lot on how you design your electrical system and what you feel you NEED to keep working. No matter how you design your panel, you NEED to have a voltage alarm so you know immediatly when/if your alternator drops out so you can change your flight plan if need be. Vern W. > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:37:57 AM PST US From: "LarryRobertHelming" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Avionics and essential Buss? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Avionics and essential Buss? > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: > > Working on schametic for Europa Rotax 914. > > 2 Questions: > > 1) What is the benefit to installing a Avionics Buss master switch when > all the Avionics have a switch of their own? With the separate switch the original settings, I.E., volume on the radio and/or intercom can be left at the last setting thereby not needing to fiddle with them for each new flight. I have turned the radio volume too low at start up a couple of times and thought I was having a radio failure before I found I had just failed to turn up the volume up sufficiently. > > 2) What does and does not belongs on a Essential Buss? Usually the radios and other devices needed to fly the plane safely are powered through the e-bus so to have an alternate path. Put the avionics switch in the wire path between the main bus feed and the rectified diode that feeds the e-bus. Devices like an engine monitor are not essential and should not be put on the e-bus. Think about what is important if your alternator quits working and what you absolutely need to finish your flight for the type of flying you plan to do as the answer varies depending on type of flying. Hope this helps. > > Thx. > Ron Parigoris > Indiana Larry, RV7 Tip Up 79 hours "Please use the information and opinions I express with responsibility, and at your own risk." > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:59:56 AM PST US From: "Bill Denton" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Pitot Heat Indicator Color? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Denton" Looking at my big old Cessna 182 panel poster from Sporty's... The pitot heat switch is at the end of the bank of light switches, and is exactly the same style (chrome toggle) and size. There doesn't appear to be any sort of on/off indicator. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Eric M. Jones Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 7:34 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Pitot Heat Indicator Color? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" For transport category aircraft.... Sec. 25.1326 - Pitot heat indication systems. If a flight instrument pitot heating system is installed, an indication system must be provided to indicate to the flight crew when that pitot heating system is not operating. The indication system must comply with the following requirements: (a) The indication provided must incorporate an amber light that is in clear view of a flight crewmember. (b) The indication provided must be designed to alert the flight crew if either of the following conditions exist: (1) The pitot heating system is switched "off". (2) The pitot heating system is switched "on" and any pitot tube heating element is inoperative. [Amdt. 25-43, 43 FR 10339, Mar. 13, 1978] -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones@charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=6610#6610 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:22:55 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" style contacts Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Peak current handling of S604 gold "DB" style contacts --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" style contacts At 05:43 PM 1/24/2006 -0800, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James Foerster" > > >Bob, or anyone, > I'm wiring my engine compartment to the instrument panel with a CPC2 > series Amp connector to allow the panel to be removed from the plane and > assembled on the bench. One of the wire pairs from the engine > compartment is the 5 amp breaker switch to the field terminal on the BC20 > alternator. I recall that Bob has suggested a mean current draw of 4 > amps max for the gold plated 0.040 DB style pins and sockets, which have > the part number S604 on the B&C site. Could I use a pair of these to > carry the current through the field circuit breaker and switch? If the > overvoltage crowbar on the LR-3 regulator shorts the field, there will be > a momentary current draw of much larger magnitude. The data sheets for > this series of breakers at 5 amps suggests 50 milliohms internal > resistance, and if I use 12 feet of 20 gauge wire, this will add 120 > milliohms to the circuit. I don't know the internal resistance of the > crowbar. If set to zero, this leaves 170 milliohms plus the contact ! > resistance of two series pairs of the pin and socket. I have not > measured this resistance, but the Tyco (Amp) site suggests 10 millohm > maximum. After doing some reading, I find that the CPC series with "size > 20" pins and sockets is rated at a single circuit of 8.34 amps continuous > with a 30 degree C rise in temperature. The breaker will open in 0.2 to > 0.6 sec at 1000% load. > >When the crowbar fires, the instantaneous current before heating is 16 >volts/0.18 ohms, or 89 amps. The bimetal thermal breaker should raise its >electrical resistance much faster than the wiring because it is >enclosed. I'm not sure. The convenience of routing all wires through >this one or two CPC connector set is attractive, but I could run the wires >through a grommet in the panel, directly to the breaker. It is harder to >take apart this way, but at this point, I have convinced myself that the >direct route to the Fast-On tab on the breaker is the best way. Having >spent several hours researching this, I thought I'd share it with the list. > >The two Tyco PDF documents of interest are: instruction sheet 408-7593 and >108-10024-3 on the web site. The first thought I had was to wonder what considerations drive the need to put a connector in this line (or any others that will share the connector). The most common reasons are a matter of convenience. An oft cited rationale is, "to be able to unplug an engine harness as the engine is lifted out of the airframe." Or, "I want to do all the wiring inside the cockpit first and save all the wiring forward of the firewall until later." Consider that every connector adds three new joints to every wire along with the (1) attendant concerns you've correctly identified above, (2) increased parts count [reduced reliability], (3) increased $time$ to procure, install and maintain. We at RAC, (like the automotive industry) break major wire bundles down for assembly through pressure bulkheads, at airframe/avionics interfaces, etc, etc. These decisions are not made lightly. The #1 goal is to NOT install any new hardware except where there is a return on investment for costs of assembly. A builder sent me this picture some years ago: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Wiring_Technique/term_strip_not.jpg . . . very neatly installed, all wires labeled, high degree of craftsmanship. When I asked him how much this installation saved him in cost of ownership ($time$ to procure, install and maintain). He didn't have a very convincing answer. Even when you might consider a connector in an engine harness, keep in mind that the connector has to live in worst environment that the airplane can throw at it. The average engine has less than a dozen wires attached to it and probably get lifted out of the airplane perhaps once every ten years. I'll suggest that connector "convenience" is more likely to morph into "maintenance nuisance"/ Another question that comes to mind is your choice of connectors is this is going to mount on the firewall. Check the archives for threads on firewall integrity and check out: http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Firewall_Penetration/firewall.html Finally, and specific to your question I'll suggest that the wire between bus and regulator be as contiguous as practical and avoid any unnecessary breaks in connectors. You're correct in your deliberations that current flowing during the crowbar event is on the order of 50-150 amps and while average current in this line is 1 to 3 amps, the occasional but urgent requirement to operate reliably as the design goals intended cannot be made better by running the wire through any connectors whether rated for this peak-event or not. Finally, there ARE ways to practically parallel pins in small connectors for improvements in current carrying capability. I've done this in several projects, one of which has gone through the full range of environmental and operational testing to qualify for flight on this bird: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Misc/1st_Operational_GQM.jpg To drive costs out of a throwaway power distribution assembly pictured at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Misc/power_dist.jpg I used D-subs to carry as much as 20A continuous at 70C. This was accomplished by first de-rating a pin to 3A and then "ballasting" the paralleled pins with lengths of wire in one or both sides of the connector junction as shown in: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/D-Sub_Power_Dist_1.jpg By adding approximately 16 milliohms of resistance in series with each pin in the form of 22AWG wire, the pin-to-pin variability of contact resistance is washed out in the totals and the pin paralleled very nicely and survived elevated temperature testing to qualify for the task. In the case cited, I replaced a $10K+ relay based assembly in a previous target design (used $super$ connectors) with this all solid state version with 1/10th the weight volume and cost. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:24:06 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Pitot Heat Indicator Color? From: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" A few items of interest: a) Cessna 182 was a grandfathered Type Certificate, and so was exempted from new FAA guidance on Pitot Heat annunciation. b) The FAA had interpreted that Part 23 aircraft also required a Pitot Heat indication, and this can be found on newer designs. For instance, check out a Diamond DA40. Unfortunately, the rule was interpreted in a way that requires a "Pitot Off" indicator that is in your face ALL THE TIME unless its turned on. c) That being said, there is new guidance that is just out or is coming out from the Small Airplane Directorate that this indication is excessive and not necessary. I don't know if they were going to delete the requirement, or change it in a way that makes more sense. (like sensing OAT, too) d) Of course, for Experimental you don't have to follow that guidance if you don't want. TDT -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Bill Denton Sent: Wed 1/25/2006 7:55 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Pitot Heat Indicator Color? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Denton" Looking at my big old Cessna 182 panel poster from Sporty's... The pitot heat switch is at the end of the bank of light switches, and is exactly the same style (chrome toggle) and size. There doesn't appear to be any sort of on/off indicator. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Eric M. Jones Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 7:34 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Pitot Heat Indicator Color? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" For transport category aircraft.... Sec. 25.1326 - Pitot heat indication systems. If a flight instrument pitot heating system is installed, an indication system must be provided to indicate to the flight crew when that pitot heating system is not operating. The indication system must comply with the following requirements: (a) The indication provided must incorporate an amber light that is in clear view of a flight crewmember. (b) The indication provided must be designed to alert the flight crew if either of the following conditions exist: (1) The pitot heating system is switched "off". (2) The pitot heating system is switched "on" and any pitot tube heating element is inoperative. [Amdt. 25-43, 43 FR 10339, Mar. 13, 1978] -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones@charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3D6610#6610 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:37:02 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator output wire size --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 07:59 AM 1/25/2006 +0100, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mich=E8le_Delsol?= > > >Hi all =96 I have been following this list for some time mainly to educate >myself as to putting together the electrics on my RV8, now at the canoe >stage. I purchased Van=92s harness, figured it would give me a head start but >I find that I question some of the choices made, namely the size of the >Alternator output. Am planning on a 40amp alternator, aft mounted battery. > > >Vans has chosen #8 awg =96 if I look at BK=92s figure 8-4 on temp rise vs wire >size, I read 21 amps for a 10=B0C rise and 40amps for 35=B0C rise. Since I >shall >be running a 40amp alternator I figure that 35=B0C is too much since the wire >will be bundled with others =96 I=92d be better of with a larger wire. If >I put >a #6, temperature rise at 40amps is somewhere around 20=B0C. > > >My question to you guys who have been there : should I go for #8 or # 6? If you're worried, go #6. The operating temperature limit on Tefzel is 150C. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Reference_Docs/Mil-W-22759/22759slash16.pdf The time you're alternator will spend at 40+ amps is measured in >Thanks, > >Mich=E8le > > >-- > > Bob . . . < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:41:27 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator output wire size --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 07:59 AM 1/25/2006 +0100, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mich=E8le_Delsol?= > > >Hi all =96 I have been following this list for some time mainly to educate >myself as to putting together the electrics on my RV8, now at the canoe >stage. I purchased Van=92s harness, figured it would give me a head start but >I find that I question some of the choices made, namely the size of the >Alternator output. Am planning on a 40amp alternator, aft mounted battery. > > >Vans has chosen #8 awg =96 if I look at BK=92s figure 8-4 on temp rise vs wire >size, I read 21 amps for a 10=B0C rise and 40amps for 35=B0C rise. Since I >shall >be running a 40amp alternator I figure that 35=B0C is too much since the wire >will be bundled with others =96 I=92d be better of with a larger wire. If >I put >a #6, temperature rise at 40amps is somewhere around 20=B0C. > > >My question to you guys who have been there : should I go for #8 or # 6? If you're worried, go #6. The operating temperature limit on Tefzel is 150C. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Reference_Docs/Mil-W-22759/22759slash16.pdf The time your alternator will spend at 40+ amps is measured in minutes per flight cycle and usually happens in the first few minutes of flight while recharging the battery. What's the hottest environment that the wire will traverse? For a 35C rise, you can operate in a 150-35 or 115C environment indefinitely. For the vast majority of the time, your alternator will be running much less load. I don't think the #8 wire selection is a really big concern. Bob . . . < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:50:43 AM PST US From: Ken Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator output wire size --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken Hi Mich I used 8awg for that. In practice the 40 amps is seldom there for very long although I guess it could be considered continuous in some circumstances as you have observed. I've noticed that several folks have used 8awg with even larger alternators although I would not. I think you've got html turned on in your mail program which puts those numbers in your posts here (at least on my computer) and makes them somewhat difficult to read. Ken Michle Delsol wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mich=E8le_Delsol?= > >Hi all =96 I have been following this list for some time mainly to educate >myself as to putting together the electrics on my RV8, now at the canoe >stage. I purchased Van=92s harness, figured it would give me a head start but >I find that I question some of the choices made, namely the size of the >Alternator output. Am planning on a 40amp alternator, aft mounted battery. > > >Vans has chosen #8 awg =96 if I look at BK=92s figure 8-4 on temp rise vs wire >size, I read 21 amps for a 10=B0C rise and 40amps for 35=B0C rise. Since I shall >be running a 40amp alternator I figure that 35=B0C is too much since the wire >will be bundled with others =96 I=92d be better of with a larger wire. If I put >a #6, temperature rise at 40amps is somewhere around 20=B0C. > > >My question to you guys who have been there : should I go for #8 or # 6? > > >Thanks, > >Mich=E8le > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:37:35 AM PST US From: rd2@evenlink.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: AP signal source annunciator LEDs --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: rd2@evenlink.com Listers, Does anyone know if there is a regulatory requirement or guidance re. auto pilot signall source annunciator LEDs on production aircraft? We have an AP wired to switch between 2 Navs and a LORAN/GPS and would like to add 3 LEDs to indicate which source supplies the left/right signal. Planning to use 3 red panel-mount LED's with dimming switch for the purpose. Rumen ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:02:38 AM PST US From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: AP signal source annunciator LEDs --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" There's some nifty self annunciating push button switches out there, but they're expensive. I see no reason why your low tech solution won't work. There are annunciating requirements for the certified world but not for us. Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rd2@evenlink.com Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 9:31 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: AP signal source annunciator LEDs --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: rd2@evenlink.com Listers, Does anyone know if there is a regulatory requirement or guidance re. auto pilot signall source annunciator LEDs on production aircraft? We have an AP wired to switch between 2 Navs and a LORAN/GPS and would like to add 3 LEDs to indicate which source supplies the left/right signal. Planning to use 3 red panel-mount LED's with dimming switch for the purpose. Rumen ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:14:07 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: AP signal source annunciator LEDs --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 09:31 AM 1/25/2006 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: rd2@evenlink.com > >Listers, > >Does anyone know if there is a regulatory requirement or guidance re. auto >pilot signall source annunciator LEDs on production aircraft? We have an AP >wired to switch between 2 Navs and a LORAN/GPS and would like to add 3 LEDs >to indicate which source supplies the left/right signal. Planning to use 3 >red panel-mount LED's with dimming switch for the purpose. Don't know about "regulatory" . . . in the TC world and on Part 23 aircraft, the nav source switch was generally installed on the flight instrument panel or just below it so that switch position was the "annunciation" for source of current nav data. On our $bizjet$ the EFIS systems tells all things all the time. If you're talking about an OBAM aircraft, do what ever makes sense for you. For a TC aircraft, avoid red/green/amber which have traditionally been reserved for warning/on/caution annunciations. Blue, white, yellow, cyan, magenta would be better selections for "informative" annunciations. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:23:36 AM PST US From: D Wysong Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Avionics and essential Buss? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: D Wysong Hi Ron - 2) What does and does not belongs on a Essential Buss? > Thus far, our 914 "essential" bus includes one fuel pump and the TCU. The latter might get removed because losing the TCU *shouldn't* trash the engine (per the manual)... but I haven't warmed up to that thought, yet. D ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:31:06 AM PST US From: sportav8r@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EGT/CHT thermocouple cable --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com Wonder why they don't list J-type male connectors? -Bill B do not archive -----Original Message----- From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 15:45:30 -0600 Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EGT/CHT thermocouple cable --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 03:29 PM 1/24/2006 -0600, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Tvedte" > >Does anyone know of a source for twisted pair stranded non sheathed J & >K thermocouple cable (extension grade is fine)- with tefzel insulation? >Also what is being used to provide connect/disconnect capability? http://www.omega.com/pptst/EXGG_JX_WIRE.html http://www.omega.com/pptst/EXGG_KX_WIRE.html http://www.omega.com/pptst/GMP.html Bob . . . < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:50:08 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EGT/CHT thermocouple cable --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 11:27 AM 1/25/2006 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com > >Wonder why they don't list J-type male connectors? > >-Bill B Go to the Part Number Builder box further down and it will let you order a GMP-J-M for $2.50. Bob . . . > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Tvedte" > > > >Does anyone know of a source for twisted pair stranded non sheathed J & > >K thermocouple cable (extension grade is fine)- with tefzel insulation? > >Also what is being used to provide connect/disconnect capability? > >http://www.omega.com/pptst/EXGG_JX_WIRE.html > >http://www.omega.com/pptst/EXGG_KX_WIRE.html > >http://www.omega.com/pptst/GMP.html > > > Bob . . . > > > < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > > < the authority which determines whether there can be > > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > > < with experiment. > > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > > > >-- > > Bob . . . < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:42:34 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Alternator output wire size From: "Dan Beadle" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Beadle" The SIGNIFICANT current from the battery to the front end of the aircraft is the starting load - this is normally 5-10x the alternator sizing. Once the aircraft has started, most of that 40A alternator output is going to the main buss and all of the loads (lights, radios, etc.). Recharging the battery is only one of the loads. If you look at an aircraft with a load meter, a discharged battery only gets about 1/3 of the total alternator output. Once the battery is re-charged from the startup procedure, there is very little current flowing back there. So, I wouldn't worry so much about steady state currents to the rear of the aircraft. I would worry more about the starting currents over that wire and the voltage drop. If you pull 80Amps during startup (cold engine), there can be significant voltage drop through the wiring, causing less voltage to the starter for slower RPM and harder starts.... Dan -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 5:51 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator output wire size --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken Hi Mich I used 8awg for that. In practice the 40 amps is seldom there for very long although I guess it could be considered continuous in some circumstances as you have observed. I've noticed that several folks have used 8awg with even larger alternators although I would not. I think you've got html turned on in your mail program which puts those numbers in your posts here (at least on my computer) and makes them somewhat difficult to read. Ken Michle Delsol wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mich=E8le_Delsol?= > >Hi all =96 I have been following this list for some time mainly to educate >myself as to putting together the electrics on my RV8, now at the canoe >stage. I purchased Van=92s harness, figured it would give me a head start but >I find that I question some of the choices made, namely the size of the >Alternator output. Am planning on a 40amp alternator, aft mounted battery. > > >Vans has chosen #8 awg =96 if I look at BK=92s figure 8-4 on temp rise vs wire >size, I read 21 amps for a 10=B0C rise and 40amps for 35=B0C rise. Since I shall >be running a 40amp alternator I figure that 35=B0C is too much since the wire >will be bundled with others =96 I=92d be better of with a larger wire. If I put >a #6, temperature rise at 40amps is somewhere around 20=B0C. > > >My question to you guys who have been there : should I go for #8 or # 6? > > >Thanks, > >Mich=E8le > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:42:34 AM PST US From: rd2@evenlink.com Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: AP signal source annunciator LEDs --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: rd2@evenlink.com The AP already has a 3 position rotary switch with enough unused contacts that can be used to supply power to the LEDs. And, unfortunately, it's production aircraft. Thanks for the feedback, Bruce. Rumen do not archive _____________________Original message __________________________ (received from Bruce Gray; Date: 10:01 AM 1/25/2006 -0500) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" There's some nifty self annunciating push button switches out there, but they're expensive. I see no reason why your low tech solution won't work. There are annunciating requirements for the certified world but not for us. Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rd2@evenlink.com Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 9:31 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: AP signal source annunciator LEDs --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: rd2@evenlink.com Listers, Does anyone know if there is a regulatory requirement or guidance re. auto pilot signall source annunciator LEDs on production aircraft? We have an AP wired to switch between 2 Navs and a LORAN/GPS and would like to add 3 LEDs to indicate which source supplies the left/right signal. Planning to use 3 red panel-mount LED's with dimming switch for the purpose. Rumen -- ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:45:03 AM PST US From: rd2@evenlink.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: AP signal source annunciator LEDs --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: rd2@evenlink.com Thanks, Bob. Will use blue or white LEDs (it's certified). Rumen do not archive _____________________Original message __________________________ (received from Robert L. Nuckolls, III; Date: 09:10 AM 1/25/2006 -0600) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 09:31 AM 1/25/2006 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: rd2@evenlink.com > >Listers, > >Does anyone know if there is a regulatory requirement or guidance re. auto >pilot signall source annunciator LEDs on production aircraft? We have an AP >wired to switch between 2 Navs and a LORAN/GPS and would like to add 3 LEDs >to indicate which source supplies the left/right signal. Planning to use 3 >red panel-mount LED's with dimming switch for the purpose. Don't know about "regulatory" . . . in the TC world and on Part 23 aircraft, the nav source switch was generally installed on the flight instrument panel or just below it so that switch position was the "annunciation" for source of current nav data. On our $bizjet$ the EFIS systems tells all things all the time. If you're talking about an OBAM aircraft, do what ever makes sense for you. For a TC aircraft, avoid red/green/amber which have traditionally been reserved for warning/on/caution annunciations. Blue, white, yellow, cyan, magenta would be better selections for "informative" annunciations. Bob . . . -- ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 09:55:16 AM PST US From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: AP signal source annunciator LEDs --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" Well, you can always go the STC route (shudder). Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rd2@evenlink.com Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 12:39 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: AP signal source annunciator LEDs --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: rd2@evenlink.com The AP already has a 3 position rotary switch with enough unused contacts that can be used to supply power to the LEDs. And, unfortunately, it's production aircraft. Thanks for the feedback, Bruce. Rumen do not archive _____________________Original message __________________________ (received from Bruce Gray; Date: 10:01 AM 1/25/2006 -0500) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" There's some nifty self annunciating push button switches out there, but they're expensive. I see no reason why your low tech solution won't work. There are annunciating requirements for the certified world but not for us. Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rd2@evenlink.com Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 9:31 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: AP signal source annunciator LEDs --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: rd2@evenlink.com Listers, Does anyone know if there is a regulatory requirement or guidance re. auto pilot signall source annunciator LEDs on production aircraft? We have an AP wired to switch between 2 Navs and a LORAN/GPS and would like to add 3 LEDs to indicate which source supplies the left/right signal. Planning to use 3 red panel-mount LED's with dimming switch for the purpose. Rumen -- ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 01:57:45 PM PST US From: "Scott" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Pitot Heat Indicator Color? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Scott" Eric, Bill, and Tim, et al- Thanks for the info on pitot heat indication requirements -- all helpful. I am frequently impressed with the depth of knowledge available on this list. -Scott Fifield, Glastar builder do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 6:16 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Pitot Heat Indicator Color? > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" > > > A few items of interest: > > a) Cessna 182 was a grandfathered Type Certificate, and so was exempted from new FAA guidance on Pitot Heat annunciation. > b) The FAA had interpreted that Part 23 aircraft also required a Pitot Heat indication, and this can be found on newer designs. For instance, check out a Diamond DA40. Unfortunately, the rule was interpreted in a way that requires a "Pitot Off" indicator that is in your face ALL THE TIME unless its turned on. > c) That being said, there is new guidance that is just out or is coming out from the Small Airplane Directorate that this indication is excessive and not necessary. I don't know if they were going to delete the requirement, or change it in a way that makes more sense. (like sensing OAT, too) > d) Of course, for Experimental you don't have to follow that guidance if you don't want. > > TDT > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Bill Denton > Sent: Wed 1/25/2006 7:55 AM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Pitot Heat Indicator Color? > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Denton" > > Looking at my big old Cessna 182 panel poster from Sporty's... > > The pitot heat switch is at the end of the bank of light switches, and is > exactly the same style (chrome toggle) and size. There doesn't appear to be > any sort of on/off indicator. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Eric > M. Jones > Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 7:34 PM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Pitot Heat Indicator Color? > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" > > > For transport category aircraft.... > > Sec. 25.1326 - Pitot heat indication systems. > > If a flight instrument pitot heating system is installed, an indication > system must be provided to indicate to the flight crew when that pitot > heating system is not operating. The indication system must comply with the > following requirements: > > (a) The indication provided must incorporate an amber light that is in clear > view of a flight crewmember. > > (b) The indication provided must be designed to alert the flight crew if > either of the following conditions exist: > > (1) The pitot heating system is switched "off". > > (2) The pitot heating system is switched "on" and any pitot tube heating > element is inoperative. > > [Amdt. 25-43, 43 FR 10339, Mar. 13, 1978] > > -------- > Eric M. Jones > www.PerihelionDesign.com > 113 Brentwood Drive > Southbridge, MA 01550 > (508) 764-2072 > emjones@charter.net > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=3D6610#6610 > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 03:46:23 PM PST US From: "Giffen Marr" Subject: AeroElectric-List: GPS Ground plane --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Giffen Marr" I am getting ready to install a "Trimble" GPS antenna in my Lancair IVP. I am making a shelf for it in the fiberglass portion of the aft fuselage. In looking at the "Connection" Bob did not cover GPS Antennas, they were to be added later. What size, if any, ground plane does the GPS antenna take? Giff Marr Lancair IV-P/20B 45% ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 04:49:38 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: GPS Ground plane --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 05:44 PM 1/25/2006 -0600, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Giffen Marr" > > >I am getting ready to install a "Trimble" GPS antenna in my Lancair IVP. I >am making a shelf for it in the fiberglass portion of the aft fuselage. In >looking at the "Connection" Bob did not cover GPS Antennas, they were to be >added later. What size, if any, ground plane does the GPS antenna take? > >Giff Marr >Lancair IV-P/20B 45% The flat gps antennas don't need a "tuned" ground plane. Make it as large as practical but 6" square would probably be big enough. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 05:25:47 PM PST US From: "James Foerster" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Peak current handling of S604 gold "DB" style --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James Foerster" Bob, Another question that comes to mind is your choice of connectors is this is going to mount on the firewall. Actually, having read your helpful material on firewall integrity, I plan to run the plug end of the wiring harness through a hole in the firewall suitably protected against fire and run the plug to a bulkhead style receptacle on the bottom of the instrument panel. This eliminates one set of connectors on the firewall itself, and moves the connector to the protected confines of the cabin. Finally, there ARE ways to practically parallel pins in small connectors for improvements in current carrying capability. I considered the parallel D sub approach-again learned on this list-for the field breaker, but the peak and unknown current draw made this approach less practical. There are CPC connectors with big silver plated contacts rated for large amps that make more sense than paralleling 20 D subs in a 28 pin housing. The large wire 3 conductor unit is about the same size as the 28 conductor D sub pin unit. A builder sent me this picture some years ago: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Wiring_Technique/term_strip_not.jpg . . . very neatly installed, all wires labeled, high degree of craftsmanship. When I asked him how much this installation saved him in cost of ownership ($time$ to procure, install and maintain). He didn't have a very convincing answer. I may not have a very convincing answer either. We all build guided by our personalities, and I don't want my plane to look like a factory wired Cessna rats nest that I read about on this list. Perhaps I'm being compulsive. I have a lot more than 10 wires coming from the engine compartment. There are 6 channels of CHT, 2 channels of EGT, solenoid control for the carb heat, two current shunts from the two alternators, the isolated dual + and - 15 volt supply to the thermocouple amplifier board--I'm not sure that my 28 pin connector will be enough, and I may need a second smaller connector. One more reason for this approach: my building partner has the plane and it is a 40 minute drive to get to this plane. I can wire the electrical for the engine compartment at home, because all of the components are in a 3x12x12 inch box with a harness coming out of it. The panel can also be taken to my home for wiring away from the plane. Whether this will be a good solution, only time will tell. I really appreciate your help over the years, and have learned a lot from this list and especially you. Jim Foerster, J400, wiring ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 06:47:20 PM PST US From: sportav8r@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EGT/CHT thermocouple cable --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com I didn't see that; thanks for pointing it out. Don't I recall from somewhere that it's okay to use, say, crimp-on molex pins on the appropriate extension wires, as long as a certain symmetry of junctions in the cable run is maintained? I think that's how i extended by GRT probe wires ages ago, and it _seems_ to work okay. -Bill -----Original Message----- From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 10:46:31 -0600 Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EGT/CHT thermocouple cable --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 11:27 AM 1/25/2006 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com > >Wonder why they don't list J-type male connectors? > >-Bill B Go to the Part Number Builder box further down and it will let you order a GMP-J-M for $2.50. Bob . . . > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Tvedte" > > > >Does anyone know of a source for twisted pair stranded non sheathed J & > >K thermocouple cable (extension grade is fine)- with tefzel insulation? > >Also what is being used to provide connect/disconnect capability? > >http://www.omega.com/pptst/EXGG_JX_WIRE.html > >http://www.omega.com/pptst/EXGG_KX_WIRE.html > >http://www.omega.com/pptst/GMP.html > > > Bob . . . > > > < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > > < the authority which determines whether there can be > > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > > < with experiment. > > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > > > >-- > > Bob . . . < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 07:51:02 PM PST US From: "Richard Sipp" Subject: AeroElectric-List: GPS antennas --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Richard Sipp" I know many folks have mounted their GPS antennas under fiberglass components like cowls. Most have reported no problem with reception. Has anyone with this configuration had a problem they could identify? Any reasons not to go this route? Any other considerations other than insuring unrestricted view of the sky and no metallic materials in the fiberglass.? Thanks Dick Sipp ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 08:07:06 PM PST US From: "Alan K. Adamson" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: GPS antennas --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alan K. Adamson" Also, *do not* put it under carbon fiber... Might as well be aluminum as it's conductive and is a great faraday shield :) Alan -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Sipp Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 10:47 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: GPS antennas --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Richard Sipp" --> I know many folks have mounted their GPS antennas under fiberglass components like cowls. Most have reported no problem with reception. Has anyone with this configuration had a problem they could identify? Any reasons not to go this route? Any other considerations other than insuring unrestricted view of the sky and no metallic materials in the fiberglass.? Thanks Dick Sipp ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 11:39:34 PM PST US From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mich=E8le_Delsol?= Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Alternator output wire size --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mich=E8le_Delsol?= Thanks Ken and Bob - 8awg wins hands down - and I'll turn off HTML. Michele -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken Sent: mercredi 25 janvier 2006 14:51 Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator output wire size --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken Hi Mich I used 8awg for that. In practice the 40 amps is seldom there for very long although I guess it could be considered continuous in some circumstances as you have observed. I've noticed that several folks have used 8awg with even larger alternators although I would not. I think you've got html turned on in your mail program which puts those numbers in your posts here (at least on my computer) and makes them somewhat difficult to read. Ken Michle Delsol wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mich=E8le_Delsol? > >Hi all =96 I have been following this list for some time mainly to educate >myself as to putting together the electrics on my RV8, now at the canoe >stage. I purchased Van=92s harness, figured it would give me a head start but >I find that I question some of the choices made, namely the size of the >Alternator output. Am planning on a 40amp alternator, aft mounted battery. > > >Vans has chosen #8 awg =96 if I look at BK=92s figure 8-4 on temp rise vs wire >size, I read 21 amps for a 10=B0C rise and 40amps for 35=B0C rise. Since I shall >be running a 40amp alternator I figure that 35=B0C is too much since the wire >will be bundled with others =96 I=92d be better of with a larger wire. If I put >a #6, temperature rise at 40amps is somewhere around 20=B0C. > > >My question to you guys who have been there : should I go for #8 or # 6? > > >Thanks, > >Mich=E8le > > > > > > > > >