---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 02/03/06: 22 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:15 AM - Excel Wire Book (SMITHBKN@aol.com) 2. 04:44 AM - tail light problem (rd2@evenlink.com) 3. 05:04 AM - Re: tail light problem (Gilles Thesee) 4. 06:19 AM - Re: tail light problem (Vern Little) 5. 07:45 AM - Re: tail light problem (rd2@evenlink.com) 6. 07:45 AM - Re: tail light problem (Deene Ogden) 7. 07:45 AM - Re: tail light problem (Robert Sultzbach) 8. 07:54 AM - Re: Excel Wire Book (McFarland, Randy) 9. 08:26 AM - OC Baker....... (Fergus Kyle) 10. 09:05 AM - OV Module (Ron) 11. 09:53 AM - Re: tail light problem (rd2@evenlink.com) 12. 12:24 PM - Hall effect current sensor location (Geoff Evans) 13. 03:30 PM - Vertex Standard VXA-210 & Aircraft Intercom (Bill Denton) 14. 06:20 PM - Re: Hall effect current sensor location (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 15. 06:30 PM - Seminar in Norfolk/Chesapeake, VA (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 16. 06:52 PM - 12 Volt DC Bench Power Supply (J. Mcculley) 17. 07:03 PM - Re: Hall effect current sensor location (Bob C.) 18. 07:08 PM - Re: 12 Volt DC Bench Power Supply (Bob C.) 19. 08:18 PM - Re: 12 Volt DC Bench Power Supply (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 20. 08:18 PM - Re: Hall effect current sensor location (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 21. 08:52 PM - Re: Hall effect current sensor location (DonVS) 22. 08:54 PM - Re: Hall effect current sensor location (Richard Sipp) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:15:34 AM PST US From: SMITHBKN@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Excel Wire Book --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: SMITHBKN@aol.com Will, I posted my wiring approach to the group a few weeks back. It was all in excel. I'll send you a copy of it offline. DO NOT ARCHIVE Jeff Smith Knoxville, TN ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:44:53 AM PST US From: rd2@evenlink.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: tail light problem --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: rd2@evenlink.com We are trying to pinpoint a problem with the rudder mounted tail light on a cessna 172. I think originally the taillight should be fed from the same rocker switch that feeds the wingtip nav lights (?).We have no wiring diagram for the aircraft. Now, after an avionics upgrade, the taillight only responds to the rheostat for the instrument lighting (the center one). We've got a dimmable tail light. No response to the nav lights rocker switch. The wing tip nav lights work ok. I'd appreciate any ideas. Rumen ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:04:41 AM PST US From: Gilles Thesee Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: tail light problem --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee rd2@evenlink.com a crit : >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: rd2@evenlink.com > >We are trying to pinpoint a problem with the rudder mounted tail light on a >cessna 172. I think originally the taillight should be fed from the same >rocker switch that feeds the wingtip nav lights (?).We have no wiring >diagram for the aircraft. >Now, after an avionics upgrade, the taillight only responds to the rheostat >for the instrument lighting (the center one). We've got a dimmable tail >light. No response to the nav lights rocker switch. The wing tip nav lights >work ok. >I'd appreciate any ideas. > > > Your avionics technician may have messed up the instrument lights and tail light wires. The terminals on the bus bars or terminal strips may be adjacent. What about tracing the tail light terminal and trying to find the correct position ? In a cerified ship, the wires must be labelled. Or better yet, bring back the airplane to the technician, to have him correct his mistake ? FWIW, Regards, Gilles Thesee Grenoble, France http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:19:12 AM PST US From: Vern Little Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: tail light problem --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Vern Little I have no experience with the 172, but if it's similar to the way I think, then it may be a two-pole switch. One pole switches the Position (including tail) lights, and the other pole switches the dimmer power. It sounds like the tail position wire got re-connected to the wrong pole. A stab in the dark, but easy to check and fix. Vern Little RV-9A rd2@evenlink.com wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: rd2@evenlink.com > > We are trying to pinpoint a problem with the rudder mounted tail light on a > cessna 172. I think originally the taillight should be fed from the same > rocker switch that feeds the wingtip nav lights (?).We have no wiring > diagram for the aircraft. > Now, after an avionics upgrade, the taillight only responds to the rheostat > for the instrument lighting (the center one). We've got a dimmable tail > light. No response to the nav lights rocker switch. The wing tip nav lights > work ok. > I'd appreciate any ideas. > > Rumen > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:45:34 AM PST US From: rd2@evenlink.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: tail light problem --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: rd2@evenlink.com Gilles, > Your avionics technician may have messed up the instrument lights and tail light wires. > This is what it looks like. I am taking it back, but also I am of the kind that always wants to know the reason. Vern, >....if it's similar to the way I think, then it may be a two-pole switch. One pole switches the Position (including tail) lights, and the other pole switches the dimmer power. > A good point to check. > It sounds like the tail position wire got re-connected to the wrong pole. > Yep Thanks guys Rumen do not archive ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:45:34 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: tail light problem From: Deene Ogden --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Deene Ogden Also, many GA planes have the instrument lights and associated dimmer on the same switch (pole) as the nav lights so that they come on whenever the nav lights are selected. Sounds like the shop got the nav/instr light circuit messed up somehow and connected the taillight to the instrument light loop downstream of the dimmer. I would start tracing from the nav switch and see what happened. Also the Cessna groups can probably get you a lead to a schematic for your 172 to help. Deene Vern Little Sent by: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com 02/03/2006 08:14 AM Please respond to aeroelectric-list@matronics.com To aeroelectric-list@matronics.com cc Subject Re: AeroElectric-List: tail light problem --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Vern Little I have no experience with the 172, but if it's similar to the way I think, then it may be a two-pole switch. One pole switches the Position (including tail) lights, and the other pole switches the dimmer power. It sounds like the tail position wire got re-connected to the wrong pole. A stab in the dark, but easy to check and fix. Vern Little RV-9A rd2@evenlink.com wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: rd2@evenlink.com > > We are trying to pinpoint a problem with the rudder mounted tail light on a > cessna 172. I think originally the taillight should be fed from the same > rocker switch that feeds the wingtip nav lights (?).We have no wiring > diagram for the aircraft. > Now, after an avionics upgrade, the taillight only responds to the rheostat > for the instrument lighting (the center one). We've got a dimmable tail > light. No response to the nav lights rocker switch. The wing tip nav lights > work ok. > I'd appreciate any ideas. > > Rumen > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:45:34 AM PST US From: Robert Sultzbach Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: tail light problem --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Robert Sultzbach I have no input as far as a correction but I am curious as to how you found this problem. I would think most folks would never notice their tail light. As an aside, have you verified that these are the only two systems involved in the malfunction. Perhaps another oddball effect is lurking. I applaud your thoroughness in detecting this problem. I suggest checking all your systems to ensure they are operating correctly. Bob --- rd2@evenlink.com wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: > rd2@evenlink.com > > We are trying to pinpoint a problem with the rudder > mounted tail light on a > cessna 172. I think originally the taillight should > be fed from the same > rocker switch that feeds the wingtip nav lights > (?).We have no wiring > diagram for the aircraft. > Now, after an avionics upgrade, the taillight only > responds to the rheostat > for the instrument lighting (the center one). We've > got a dimmable tail > light. No response to the nav lights rocker switch. > The wing tip nav lights > work ok. > I'd appreciate any ideas. > > Rumen > > > > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > > Admin. > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:54:05 AM PST US From: "McFarland, Randy" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Excel Wire Book --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "McFarland, Randy" Me too please. I'm right there as well in my build process. Appreciate your willingness to share your work. Randy 7A in San Jose, Ca. -----Original Message----- From: SMITHBKN@aol.com [mailto:SMITHBKN@aol.com] Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 2:09 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Excel Wire Book --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: SMITHBKN@aol.com Will, I posted my wiring approach to the group a few weeks back. It was all in excel. I'll send you a copy of it offline. DO NOT ARCHIVE Jeff Smith Knoxville, TN ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:26:40 AM PST US From: "Fergus Kyle" Subject: AeroElectric-List: OC Baker....... --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" OC, Just as Fred F contributes useful info to the group, may I thank you for your last epistle on the External/Nav lights issue. .........Couldn't have been more to the point! Tahnks again and Happy Landings Ferg ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:05:44 AM PST US From: "Ron" Subject: AeroElectric-List: OV Module --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ron" Thanks for the help guys. I started to check and found closer resistors to the ones called out and changed the ones per Bobs latest revision. The module works as it should and cuts the power at 16V. Ron Triano http://bld01.ipowerweb.com/contentmanagement/websites/rtrianoc/page10.html ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:53:47 AM PST US From: rd2@evenlink.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: tail light problem --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: rd2@evenlink.com Bob, My grand dad used to lock the door methodically and thoroughly, make 2 steps and come back (twice) to check if the door is locked We kids used to laugh. Now I find myself in the same position, I try to check (trust by verify) all details I can think of. Yes, I tried to verify and and isolate the problem and at this time only the tail light needs the rheostat full up in order to work. But checking for other malfunctions will continue. _____________________Original message __________________________ (received from Robert Sultzbach; Date: 07:41 AM 2/3/2006 -0800) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Robert Sultzbach I have no input as far as a correction but I am curious as to how you found this problem. I would think most folks would never notice their tail light. As an aside, have you verified that these are the only two systems involved in the malfunction. Perhaps another oddball effect is lurking. I applaud your thoroughness in detecting this problem. I suggest checking all your systems to ensure they are operating correctly. Bob -------------------------------- Deene, > Also, many GA planes have the instrument lights and associated dimmer on the same switch (pole) as the nav lights so that they come on whenever the nav lights are selected. Sounds like the shop got the nav/instr light circuit messed up somehow and connected the taillight to the instrument light loop downstream of the dimmer. I would start tracing from the nav switch and see what happened. Also the Cessna groups can probably get you a lead to a schematic for your 172 to help. > Thanks, useful info. In our case dimmer rheostat must be fed directly (apparently), as the taillight and instrument lighting dimm independently from the nav lights rocker switch. I am coming to the preliminary conclusion (without having done any tracing) that the tail light somehow got switched from the nav lights rocker switch "out" to the dimmer-rheostat "out". Looks like now we need to pull all connections off from the rheostat, one by one, to find out which is the tail light +feed and to re-connect it to the nav lights rocker. (this is if no labels or unredable) Any comments, guys? Rumen do not archive ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 12:24:40 PM PST US From: Geoff Evans Subject: AeroElectric-List: Hall effect current sensor location --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Geoff Evans I recently purchased a VM-1000C from Vision Microsystems. The directions say to install the hall effect current sensor in the "cabin area." However, in order to place it on the B-lead between the alternator and starter solenoid, I'll have to mount it on the engine side of the firewall. I called Vision and they said not to mount it on the engine side of the firewall because the sensor is only rated to 150 degrees. On the other hand, numerous pictures of other people's airplanes show hall effect sensors for many different engine monitors (including the VM-1000) mounted on the engine side of the firewall. So what's the real story here? Thanks. -Geoff RV-8 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:30:41 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Vertex Standard VXA-210 & Aircraft Intercom From: "Bill Denton" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Denton" Does anyone have a wiring diagram showing how to connect a Vertex Standard VXA-210 to an aircraft intercom? Thanks! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=9449#9449 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:20:20 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Hall effect current sensor location --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 12:18 PM 2/3/2006 -0800, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Geoff Evans > > >I recently purchased a VM-1000C from Vision Microsystems. The directions say >to install the hall effect current sensor in the "cabin area." However, in >order to place it on the B-lead between the alternator and starter solenoid, >I'll have to mount it on the engine side of the firewall. > >I called Vision and they said not to mount it on the engine side of the >firewall because the sensor is only rated to 150 degrees. On the other hand, >numerous pictures of other people's airplanes show hall effect sensors for >many different engine monitors (including the VM-1000) mounted on the engine >side of the firewall. > >So what's the real story here? The story is that nobody has measured what the real working environment temperatures are in the proposed firewall mounting locations. Further, while the device is rated for 150F operating, transients of more than that (usually happen immediately following shutdown) won't kill it. Risks are low. Give it a try. Let's do some tests during your fly-off to KNOW what you're dealing with. One of the new products under development for the 'Connection website is a 4-channel, 10-bit, A/D converter that runs from the USB port of a laptop. We'll have a nice graphical user interface to go with it. The price will be VERY attractive. It's exactly what you need for this an other interesting and informative experiments. Perhaps you can be my beta-customer. In the mean time, anecdotal data suggest that the hall effect sensors live happily on the firewall as long as they don't get direct IR radiation from hot exhaust stacks. Bob . . . < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:30:31 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Seminar in Norfolk/Chesapeake, VA --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" EAA Chapter 339 has enthusiastically launched into an activity with goals to sell the minimum number of seats for a weekend seminar in Chesapeake, VA on March 25/26. I thought this to be an ambitious endeavor because we need to make a go/no-go decision 30 days in advance to keep our airline travel costs down. They assured me that they already had 10 folks committed so I agreed to schedule the event. If we pull it off, it will be the shortest-coupled program we've tried to organize. List subscribers in the area might want to consider attending this presentation. The sign-up sheet is at: http://aeroelectric.com/seminars/Chesapeake.html As always, satisfaction is guaranteed with all AeroElectric Connection products. You don't pay for it until after the program and if you believe the tuition is too high, then pay what you think it WAS worth. Bob . . . < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:52:23 PM PST US From: "J. Mcculley" Subject: AeroElectric-List: 12 Volt DC Bench Power Supply --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "J. Mcculley" Can someone recommend a source/model of bench power supply using 110V AC input with 12V DC output, capable of up to 15 amps DC? Thanks, Jim McCulley ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:03:24 PM PST US From: "Bob C. " Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Hall effect current sensor location --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bob C. " I have an EIS from Advanced Flight Systems . . . their instruction said the same thing and I had the same issue . . . When I asked them . . . their bigger concern was moisture but said it would be OK to mount it on the FW if I put it in a little enclosure to protect it. They didn't mention the heat issue . . . I'm sure things get warm especially on the ground on a hot day?! Good Luck, Bob On 2/3/06, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > At 12:18 PM 2/3/2006 -0800, you wrote: > > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Geoff Evans > > > > > >I recently purchased a VM-1000C from Vision Microsystems. The directions say > >to install the hall effect current sensor in the "cabin area." However, in > >order to place it on the B-lead between the alternator and starter solenoid, > >I'll have to mount it on the engine side of the firewall. > > > >I called Vision and they said not to mount it on the engine side of the > >firewall because the sensor is only rated to 150 degrees. On the other hand, > >numerous pictures of other people's airplanes show hall effect sensors for > >many different engine monitors (including the VM-1000) mounted on the engine > >side of the firewall. > > > >So what's the real story here? > > The story is that nobody has measured what the > real working environment temperatures are in > the proposed firewall mounting locations. Further, > while the device is rated for 150F operating, transients > of more than that (usually happen immediately following > shutdown) won't kill it. > > Risks are low. Give it a try. Let's do some tests during > your fly-off to KNOW what you're dealing with. One of the > new products under development for the 'Connection website > is a 4-channel, 10-bit, A/D converter that runs from the > USB port of a laptop. We'll have a nice graphical user > interface to go with it. The price will be VERY attractive. > It's exactly what you need for this an other interesting > and informative experiments. Perhaps you can be my beta-customer. > > In the mean time, anecdotal data suggest that the hall > effect sensors live happily on the firewall as long as they > don't get direct IR radiation from hot exhaust stacks. > > Bob . . . > > > < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > > < the authority which determines whether there can be > > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > > < with experiment. > > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 07:08:48 PM PST US From: "Bob C. " Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 12 Volt DC Bench Power Supply --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bob C. " I've been using a MFJ-4225 MV with good results . . . it's a switching power supply . . . available from most armature radio stores. Astron also make nice power supplies but there more money. He the MFJ site / Pwr Supply http://www.mfjenterprises.com/products.php?prodid=MFJ-4225MV Good Luck, Bob is SE Iowa On 2/3/06, J. Mcculley wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "J. Mcculley" > > Can someone recommend a source/model of bench power supply using 110V AC > input with 12V DC output, capable of up to 15 amps DC? Thanks, > > Jim McCulley > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 08:18:53 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 12 Volt DC Bench Power Supply --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 09:50 PM 2/3/2006 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "J. Mcculley" > > >Can someone recommend a source/model of bench power supply using 110V AC >input with 12V DC output, capable of up to 15 amps DC? Thanks, > >Jim McCulley Do you really want 12v . . . or are you interested in simulating an operating vehicle? 13.8v is a nominal bench supply setting for emulating bus voltage. Here's a supply I used to sell until they got so cheap that the margins didn't fit my business model any more . . . http://www.radiodan.com/misc/samlex1223.htm http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/hamps/3747.html http://www.aaradio.com/cartfile/misc%20html/samlex.html Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 08:18:59 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Hall effect current sensor location --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 09:01 PM 2/3/2006 -0600, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bob C. " > >I have an EIS from Advanced Flight Systems . . . their instruction >said the same thing and I had the same issue . . . > >When I asked them . . . their bigger concern was moisture but said it >would be OK to mount it on the FW if I put it in a little enclosure to >protect it. They didn't mention the heat issue . . . I'm sure things >get warm especially on the ground on a hot day?! > >Good Luck, >Bob Interesting! Did they describe the enclosure that would stand off moisture? I've got a bucket full of war stories about various attempts and observations of the attempts of others to deal with atmospheric moisture and moisture sensitive electronics. Unless they described a very specific technique for sealing the sensor from the environment, the term "enclosure" would have been quite inadequate. I'm 90% certain that these things will live under the cowl just fine. We just need to do a little homework to confirm/ refine that perception. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 08:52:56 PM PST US From: "DonVS" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Hall effect current sensor location --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "DonVS" Rob Hickman of Advanced Flight Systems told me to "pot" the entire circuit board with an electronic type RTV. Dan Checkoway has over 800 hours on his done this way. His is in the engine compartment. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 8:18 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Hall effect current sensor location --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 09:01 PM 2/3/2006 -0600, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bob C. " > >I have an EIS from Advanced Flight Systems . . . their instruction >said the same thing and I had the same issue . . . > >When I asked them . . . their bigger concern was moisture but said it >would be OK to mount it on the FW if I put it in a little enclosure to >protect it. They didn't mention the heat issue . . . I'm sure things >get warm especially on the ground on a hot day?! > >Good Luck, >Bob Interesting! Did they describe the enclosure that would stand off moisture? I've got a bucket full of war stories about various attempts and observations of the attempts of others to deal with atmospheric moisture and moisture sensitive electronics. Unless they described a very specific technique for sealing the sensor from the environment, the term "enclosure" would have been quite inadequate. I'm 90% certain that these things will live under the cowl just fine. We just need to do a little homework to confirm/ refine that perception. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 08:54:28 PM PST US From: "Richard Sipp" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Hall effect current sensor location --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Richard Sipp" > Interesting! Did they describe the enclosure that would > stand off moisture? I've got a bucket full of war stories > about various attempts and observations of the attempts of > others to deal with atmospheric moisture and moisture > sensitive electronics. Unless they described a very specific > technique for sealing the sensor from the environment, the > term "enclosure" would have been quite inadequate. > > I'm 90% certain that these things will live under the cowl > just fine. We just need to do a little homework to confirm/ > refine that perception. > > Bob . . . For one data point, I have had a Vision Micro Systems supplied hall effect sensor mounted on an upper engine mount leg for 10 years and 700 hours with no problems. We used two cushion clamps. Dick Sipp