AeroElectric-List Digest Archive

Fri 02/24/06


Total Messages Posted: 50



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 05:37 AM - Re: Re: Odyssey % of charge (Correction) (Brian Lloyd)
     2. 05:37 AM - Alternator conversion (Bill Bradburry)
     3. 06:19 AM - Re: Alternator conversion (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     4. 06:19 AM - Re: Alternator conversion (Ken)
     5. 06:22 AM - Re: Odyssey % of charge (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     6. 06:47 AM - Re: What happens if OV trips? (Ken)
     7. 06:53 AM - Shutting off Ignition on Running Car (Alexander, Don)
     8. 07:11 AM - An Architecture Question - Z13 (Todd Richmond)
     9. 07:15 AM - Re: Re: Odyssey % of charge (Brian Lloyd)
    10. 07:22 AM - Re: SD8 Alternator Install - Z-12 vs. Manual  (Steve & Denise)
    11. 07:42 AM - Re: An Architecture Question - Z13 (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
    12. 07:50 AM - Re: Baclup Battery monitor (Mitchell Goodrich)
    13. 07:56 AM - SD-20 Alt performance chart? (Alan K. Adamson)
    14. 08:24 AM - Re: Baclup Battery monitor (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
    15. 08:36 AM - Re: An Architecture Question - Z13 (Dave Morris \)
    16. 08:46 AM - Re: Baclup Battery monitor (Dave Morris \)
    17. 09:02 AM - Re: Z-14 FADEC Version Question with P.S. (dannylsmith)
    18. 09:02 AM - Re: Baclup Battery monitor (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    19. 09:03 AM - Re: Baclup Battery monitor (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
    20. 09:04 AM - Re: Baclup Battery monitor (Mickey Coggins)
    21. 09:06 AM - Re: SD-20 Alt performance chart? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    22. 09:17 AM - Re: What happens if OV trips? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    23. 09:20 AM - Re: Re: Odyssey % of charge (Bill Dube)
    24. 09:24 AM - Re: Re: SD8 Alternator Install - Z-12 vs. Manual  (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    25. 09:27 AM - Re: Re: Odyssey % of charge (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    26. 09:27 AM - Re: Baclup Battery monitor (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
    27. 09:35 AM - Re: SD-20 Alt performance chart? (Alan K. Adamson)
    28. 09:54 AM - Re: An Architecture Question - Z13 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    29. 11:32 AM - Rotax Battery/Regulator Questions (Bill Denton)
    30. 11:38 AM - Re: An Architecture Question - Z13 (Todd Richmond)
    31. 12:36 PM - Re: Strange alternator behavior at Startup (Mickey and Bob N.) ()
    32. 12:48 PM - Re: SD-20 Alt performance chart? (BobsV35B@aol.com)
    33. 12:48 PM - Re: Re: Odyssey % of charge (Brian Lloyd)
    34. 01:03 PM - Re: Baclup Battery monitor (Matt Prather)
    35. 01:34 PM - Re: SD-20 Alt performance chart? (Alan K. Adamson)
    36. 02:00 PM - Re: Baclup Battery monitor (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
    37. 05:12 PM - Re: Spam> Re: SD-20 Alt performance chart? (George Braly)
    38. 05:31 PM - AGM longevity (was: Odyssey % of charge) (Bill Dube)
    39. 05:52 PM - Re: Spam> Re: SD-20 Alt performance chart? (Alan K. Adamson)
    40. 06:43 PM - Re: Spam> Re: SD-20 Alt performance chart? (Matt Prather)
    41. 06:56 PM - Re: Spam> Re: SD-20 Alt performance chart? (Bob McCallum)
    42. 07:19 PM - Re: An Architecture Question - Z13 (Robert G. Wright)
    43. 07:50 PM - Re: AGM longevity (was: Odyssey % of charge) (Brian Lloyd)
    44. 07:50 PM - Re: Spam> Re: SD-20 Alt performance chart? (Alan K. Adamson)
    45. 08:15 PM - Transponder/EFIS Gray code (DEAN PSIROPOULOS)
    46. 08:32 PM - Re: SD-20 Alt performance chart? (BobsV35B@aol.com)
    47. 08:45 PM - Re: An Architecture Question - Z13 (Robert Sultzbach)
    48. 08:45 PM - Re: Transponder/EFIS Gray code (Malcolm Thomson)
    49. 08:47 PM - Re: SD-20 Alt performance chart? (Alan K. Adamson)
    50. 11:12 PM - LED position lights + strobe (sarg314)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 05:37:22 AM PST US
    From: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
    Subject: Re: Odyssey % of charge (Correction)
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com> Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > HERE'S THE POT HOLE - THE 30 MINUTE DISCHARGE CURVE > OF 26.4 AMPS SAYS THE CAPACITY IS 26.4A X 0.5 HOURS > OR 13.2 A.H., NOT 26 A.H. > > I SHOULD HAVE CAUGHT THAT . . . A 33 TO 26 REDUCTION > IN APPARENT CAPACITY FOR A 15X LARGER DISCHARGE > RATE DIDN'T RAISE THE FLAGS. FOUND IT WHILE ARCHIVING > THE POST. Welcome to Peukert's exponent. If you know the capacity at two different discharge rates you can interpolate or extrapolate the capacity off the battery at other discharge rates. -- Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630 +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . - Antoine de Saint-Exupery


    Message 2


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    Time: 05:37:23 AM PST US
    From: "Bill Bradburry" <bbradburry@allvantage.com>
    Subject: Alternator conversion
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Bradburry" <bbradburry@allvantage.com> Bob and others. I have seen several instructions on how to convert MI and ND alternators to either external regulation or to internal regulation such that the field wire can be used to shut the alternator down. These instructions seem simple enough that I feel that I could do it. My question is why has this never?? been a topic on this list and what are the pros and cons of these modifications? Is this safe? If not, why? And Bob, no one so far has stumped you on an electrical question, so why have you not told us how to do these modifications? I understand that at some time in the past, there was some information on internally regulated alternators on your web site, but they were removed. Is this the information that was removed? I am ready to modify an MI alternator for internal regulation where the field can be interrupted by the OV module just like it is in the external regulator, but have started to get second thoughts since this has not been covered here. Please give me some guidance. Thanks, Bill Bradburry -Snip- Okay, in the simplest terms: Install any internally regulated alternator of your choice. Know that the reliability of whatever you choose (as long as it's not a junkyard dog) is as good or better than anything flying in certified ships . . . and we don't avoid flying that rental machine because of our perceptions of alternators and batteries they may carry. Probability of OV condition is very low but not zero. Given the current capability of the alternator, it's prudent to ASSUME an OV condition can happen and plan for it . . . just as we've done in certified ships for 70 years. Know that some alternators recommended to the OBAM aircraft community have control issues. Some if not most cannot be turned ON/OFF at will any time under any conditions. If this is a design goal you embrace, know that techniques are in development to meet that goal. If this is not a goal you embrace, then the system as recommended by Van's and others does what it says it will do . . . power your airplane with relatively low risk even if you cannot control it. 99% of the past year's discussion on this topic dragged a lot of peripheral and mostly irrelevant discourse that did not advance the state of our art and science. We'll endeavor to stay focused on simple-ideas and elegant solutions for the future. Not too much of a good thing my friend . . . too much of irrelevant things. I've been taking flack from some cool headed observers for letting "my List" get out of control. I've never wanted to consider this List as a personal possession. I did start it . . . but with the idea of planting seeds that would grow on their own. However, it's entirely appropriate to treat the List as a classroom where ALL teachers are invited to practice their art and craft. Seeds need water, sun, nutrients and protection from destructive forces. Folks who just dig up seedlings and throw dirt should be invited to modify their modus operandi or take their shovels someplace else. I'll invite other teachers who participate on this List to join me in maintaining the loftiest goals in classroom atmosphere and decorum. Keep in mind that anytime you have simple-ideas (obvious truths) to share that will assemble into elegant solutions, you too have an opportunity to be a teacher. Bob . . .


    Message 3


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    Time: 06:19:18 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: Alternator conversion
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net> At 08:32 AM 2/24/2006 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Bradburry" ><bbradburry@allvantage.com> > >Bob and others. >I have seen several instructions on how to convert MI and ND alternators >to either external regulation or to internal regulation such that the >field wire can be used to shut the alternator down. These instructions >seem simple enough that I feel that I could do it. >My question is why has this never?? been a topic on this list and what >are the pros and cons of these modifications? Excellent question. When one crafts a "curriculum" for instruction and study, trade offs need to be made for time to develop the materials to be delivered, how universal are the instructions for any one task (is there risk that unforeseen variability raises risks for success), etc. There HAVE been a number of conversion articles pointed out here on the list . . . and I've encouraged folks to make their discoveries of such data known to the rest of us. It's a task I wouldn't mind doing but there are lots of tasks I don't mind doing and I have perhaps 10% of the time available necessary to take them all on. >Is this safe? If you mean TOTALLY RISK FREE, no. Nothing we do in life is SAFE. By means of our study and verification by repeatable experiment, we develop skills that mitigate risk. On top of that, we can craft systems that are failure tolerant such that the failure of a "conversion experiment" does not represent intolerable risk. I.e., having your alternator crap should not cause you to break a sweat whether or not it's a DIY conversion. > If not, >why? And Bob, no one so far has stumped you on an electrical question, >so why have you not told us how to do these modifications? It's all a matter of time . . . >I understand that at some time in the past, there was some information >on internally regulated alternators on your web site, but they were >removed. Is this the information that was removed? No, I don't think the info was posted on the website but it was discussed here on the List. >I am ready to modify an MI alternator for internal regulation where the >field can be interrupted by the OV module just like it is in the >external regulator, but have started to get second thoughts since this >has not been covered here. Please give me some guidance. You can give US some guidance. Get out your camera. Tear into the thing and take photos. Share your findings as to how power is routed within the machine and what you've deduced is a means by which you can get in series with the field power for accomplishment of this DESIGN GOAL. We all have opportunities to become teachers here. And all of us as students have the ability to help teachers refine their presentations. It's an evolutionary process of discovery, experiment, and perhaps abandonment of ideas for a better way. Ultimately the process moves forward to the point where the experiment is repeatable and is ready for prime time. Bob . . .


    Message 4


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    Time: 06:19:18 AM PST US
    From: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
    Subject: Re: Alternator conversion
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken <klehman@albedo.net> Hi Bill Sure you can do this if you wish and there is nothing wrong with that. The subject comes up periodically and several folks have posted suggested methods for some specific alternators. Some look to be easier to mod than others. There are a couple of companies that offer such units. I was not particularly interested as it seemed somewhat counterproductive. You must do the mod and not cause a related problem by doing so which is probably not too difficult. However it wouldn't be the first time that a problem was caused just by opening a factory assembled device. You must purchase and install a separate voltage regulator which may not be as good as what is already in the alternator depending on which one you choose. The remote Regulator will not be able to monitor the alternator's temperature although I guess that is a pretty minor consideration. You must find a place to put that regulator and wire it reliably. Most important perhaps, you can no longer purchase a replacement off the shelf alternator and quickly install it. In addition I have little concern with using an OV contactor and a few transorbs on my IR alternator. I'm betting that eventually Bob will likely confirm that approach with some real testing and actual numbers. Risks are low either way I think. Ken Bill Bradburry wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Bradburry" <bbradburry@allvantage.com> > >Bob and others. >I have seen several instructions on how to convert MI and ND alternators >to either external regulation or to internal regulation such that the >field wire can be used to shut the alternator down. These instructions >seem simple enough that I feel that I could do it. >My question is why has this never?? been a topic on this list and what >are the pros and cons of these modifications? Is this safe? If not, >why? And Bob, no one so far has stumped you on an electrical question, >so why have you not told us how to do these modifications? >I understand that at some time in the past, there was some information >on internally regulated alternators on your web site, but they were >removed. Is this the information that was removed? >I am ready to modify an MI alternator for internal regulation where the >field can be interrupted by the OV module just like it is in the >external regulator, but have started to get second thoughts since this >has not been covered here. Please give me some guidance. >Thanks, >Bill Bradburry > >


    Message 5


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    Time: 06:22:00 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: Odyssey % of charge
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net> At 05:30 AM 2/24/2006 -0800, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com> > >Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > HERE'S THE POT HOLE - THE 30 MINUTE DISCHARGE CURVE > > OF 26.4 AMPS SAYS THE CAPACITY IS 26.4A X 0.5 HOURS > > OR 13.2 A.H., NOT 26 A.H. > > > > I SHOULD HAVE CAUGHT THAT . . . A 33 TO 26 REDUCTION > > IN APPARENT CAPACITY FOR A 15X LARGER DISCHARGE > > RATE DIDN'T RAISE THE FLAGS. FOUND IT WHILE ARCHIVING > > THE POST. > >Welcome to Peukert's exponent. If you know the capacity at two different >discharge rates you can interpolate or extrapolate the capacity off the >battery at other discharge rates. Yeah . . . sorta. I'm working on that question along with the notion that owning one of those super-charge-all smart battery chargers is a good thing to do to. I'll give you all a forecast on present findings: An $80 smart charger and $??$ capacity meter are not well suited to our ultimate design goals (1) know that the battery is mission capable every time we walk up to the airplane and (2) have tools requiring minimum expense and user time/attention to track that capability. None of the devices I cited above do a very good job of meeting those goals. An article on alternative hardware proposals is in the works. Bob . . . < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss >


    Message 6


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    Time: 06:47:25 AM PST US
    From: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
    Subject: Re: What happens if OV trips?
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken <klehman@albedo.net> Hi Scott I don't believe any of the Z architectures run two alternators in parallel such that both would trip together. However if a crowbar activates it becomes a momentary short until the CB pops. Reset the CB and everything goes back to normal unless the voltage goes high again in which case the breaker will immediately pop again. Nuisance tripping seems to be quite rare and IMO one should not tolerate any nuisance trips but rather find out why that is happening and fix it. While I don't have much engine running time accumulated yet, I have not been able to instigate a single nuisance trip with the latest homemade version of Bob's crowbar circuit dated Jan 2006. I could instigate them with earlier homemade versions. Ken Scott wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Scott" <scott@randolphs.net> > >If the "crowbar" overvoltage protection trips, is it a permanent fault or >something that can be reset on the fly? > >I'm interested in general in how it works, but specificly thinking now about >the possibility of one alternator tripping both OV circuits if both >alternators happen to be on (by design or switchology error). If that >happened, would both alternators be permanently disabled or would turning >off the faulty one allow the other to be brought back online? > >Thanks! > >Scott. > >


    Message 7


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    Time: 06:53:47 AM PST US
    Subject: Shutting off Ignition on Running Car
    From: "Alexander, Don" <Don.Alexander@astenjohnson.com>
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alexander, Don" <Don.Alexander@astenjohnson.com> >Quick question - what happens if you are driving down the highway >at 100 mph, everything working fine, and you turn the key off? >Will the alternator stop generating juice? Will all your stuff >fry? I have not tried this in my car in a long time, probably >since the 70s - back before the key locked the steering wheel. > My personal observation regarding this issue was rather dramatic. If you take a 1964 Chevy BelAir with carbureted engine (of course) and manual transmission and turn off the engine without first engaging the clutch, you will be treated to a huge explosion in the muffler when you turn the ignition back on :-( My 20 year old junker which cost me $25 to buy and never let me down with its gasoline-cooled engine doubled in value when I had to replace what remained of the muffler. It also cost me a pair of pants if you catch my drift... Regards, Don Do not archive


    Message 8


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    Time: 07:11:01 AM PST US
    From: "Todd Richmond" <trichmond@obermeyer.com>
    Subject: An Architecture Question - Z13
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Todd Richmond" <trichmond@obermeyer.com> All, I have been reading the AeroElectric posts for several weeks now and find the forum extremely useful as I begin designing the electrical system for my RV-7A (that and re-reading the AeroElectric Connection several times). I am planning an all electric airplane based on the Grand Rapids EFIS/EIS system, Garmin 430, E-Mag / P-Mag combo and all the other little gizmos I can fit (afford). At this point, I'm basing my architecture on the Z-13 with a 60 Amp alternator and SD-20 auxiliary alternator. So my first question is this. do I need an e-bus? The only reason I can figure is that without the e-bus, the master battery contactor becomes a single point of failure. If true, could I simply wire two battery contactors in parallel and run them via a 2-10 switch? To me the advantage of this approach is that in case of an alternator failure, I can simply switch to the auxiliary alternator and systematically reduce my loads until the alternator is picking up the full load without worrying what is attached to each bus. My second question is would it make sense to wire both alternators to a DP3T switch? My thought being that this approach ensures only one alternator may be operating at a time and thus would prevent them from inadvertently fighting one another. Any input is gratefully appreciated. Todd R. Richmond RV-7A Wings <mailto:trichmond@obermeyer.com> trichmond@obermeyer.com


    Message 9


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    Time: 07:15:08 AM PST US
    From: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
    Subject: Re: Odyssey % of charge
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com> Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > An $80 smart charger and $??$ capacity meter are not well suited > to our ultimate design goals (1) know that the battery is mission > capable every time we walk up to the airplane and (2) have tools > requiring minimum expense and user time/attention to track that > capability. None of the devices I cited above do a very good job > of meeting those goals. An article on alternative hardware proposals > is in the works. Having a smart energy monitor is necessary in a system where you will have irregular charge/discharge cycles and want to know how much is left in the battery. If you always recharge the battery to full every time, you can have a much simpler energy monitor that isn't quite so smart. The biggest issue as I see it is that you need to make sure you don't overcharge the battery in summer but that you do actually charge the battery in winter. That implies temperature compensation. -- Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630 +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . - Antoine de Saint-Exupery


    Message 10


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    Time: 07:22:48 AM PST US
    From: "Steve & Denise" <sjhdcl@kingston.net>
    Subject: Re: SD8 Alternator Install - Z-12 vs. Manual
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Steve & Denise" <sjhdcl@kingston.net> I thought the point in having the warning light for the aux alternator is tell you it is overloaded and equipment needs to be turned off?? Steve RV7A > Time: 08:14:15 AM PST US > From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net> > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: SD8 Alternator Install - Z-12 vs. Manual > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net> > > At 05:36 PM 2/19/2006 -0500, you wrote: > > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Steve & Denise" > ><sjhdcl@kingston.net> > > > >I comparing the SD8 install manual to Z-12 and I'm a bit confused of why the > >wiring difference. > > > >The install manual (Drawing 504-500 from B&C) details the following: > > 1. Aux Alt field breaker connected to main power bus via 2A breaker > >and aux alt switch then on to yellow OV crowbar module wire and onto 20 amp > >relay. > > 2. Install manual shows alt warning light coming off of relay > > 3. Install manual shows a second power connection via 10A breaker to > >main bus > > > > > >Z-13 details > > 1. Aux alt field connected breaker connected to 20Amp relay then onto > >aux alt switch. Black wire of OV module is connected to relay. > > 2. Z-13 does not show any aux alt warning light > > 3. Z-13 shows 16Awg fuselink coming from Battery contactor > > > >There are more differences but can someone recommend which diagram to follow > >and the reasoning for the differences. > > First, keep in mind that you're comparing two different architectures. > You're trying to blend the difference between a pickup truck and a > sedan. > > > >When does the warning light come on for the aux alt? Some instructions say > >the alt light comes on when the aux alt switch is off or it is OV. > > > >I plan on leaving the aux alt switch off all the time. Some have > >recommended to leave it on but in this scenario how does one diagnose a > >failed main alt if the backup alt has the ability to absorb all of the load? > > > >I'm also running a B&C 60 Amp alt with LR3 reg. > > > >Thanks for some clarification, > > Start with tossing out the B&C papers that show you how to > wire up the SD-8 as the only power generating source for > an airplane. > > Figure Z-13/8 does not have a warning light for the SD-8 > because it's the standby alternator and you don't want > a warning light starring you in the face for 99.9% of your > flight where the SD-8 is never used. > > Yes, the SD-8 is left off all times the 60A machine is > running. The LV warning in the LR-3 is to tell you when > you need the SD-8. Under max endurance operations SD-8 > only, there are no warnings . . . you already KNOW that > your operating with limited capabilities so you'll have > to watch a voltmeter -OR- install LV warning on the > e-bus but this would be a bit of over kill. > > Bob . . .


    Message 11


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    Time: 07:42:39 AM PST US
    Subject: An Architecture Question - Z13
    From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com> Remember switches fail too and if I read your proposal correctly you have mentioned two additional points of failure in your design...I would'nt do it put it that way. If you look at Bobs Z figures you will see that single points of failure are not an issue, the back fed e bus is quite elaegant in this regard. Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Todd Richmond Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 7:09 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: An Architecture Question - Z13 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Todd Richmond" --> <trichmond@obermeyer.com> All, I have been reading the AeroElectric posts for several weeks now and find the forum extremely useful as I begin designing the electrical system for my RV-7A (that and re-reading the AeroElectric Connection several times). I am planning an all electric airplane based on the Grand Rapids EFIS/EIS system, Garmin 430, E-Mag / P-Mag combo and all the other little gizmos I can fit (afford). At this point, I'm basing my architecture on the Z-13 with a 60 Amp alternator and SD-20 auxiliary alternator. So my first question is this. do I need an e-bus? The only reason I can figure is that without the e-bus, the master battery contactor becomes a single point of failure. If true, could I simply wire two battery contactors in parallel and run them via a 2-10 switch? To me the advantage of this approach is that in case of an alternator failure, I can simply switch to the auxiliary alternator and systematically reduce my loads until the alternator is picking up the full load without worrying what is attached to each bus. My second question is would it make sense to wire both alternators to a DP3T switch? My thought being that this approach ensures only one alternator may be operating at a time and thus would prevent them from inadvertently fighting one another. Any input is gratefully appreciated. Todd R. Richmond RV-7A Wings <mailto:trichmond@obermeyer.com> trichmond@obermeyer.com


    Message 12


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    Time: 07:50:50 AM PST US
    From: "Mitchell Goodrich" <mgoodrich@tampabay.rr.com>
    Subject: Baclup Battery monitor
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mitchell Goodrich" <mgoodrich@tampabay.rr.com> Hello All, I am installing a backup battery for a dual EI installation. I'm looking for a way to monitor w/warning, the voltage and possibly load on it. Any ideas?? Mitchell Goodrich VEZE 60P Tampa,FL -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mickey Coggins Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 3:24 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Avionics ground bus kit --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch> Hi, I vaguely recall hearing that someone was putting together a kit or perhaps a finished avionics ground bus like Bob shows in this photo: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Grounding/Avionics_Bus_3.jpg Does anyone know where I can purchase either the kit or (preferably) the finished product? Thanks, Mickey -- Mickey Coggins http://www.rv8.ch/ #82007 finishing


    Message 13


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    Time: 07:56:34 AM PST US
    From: "Alan K. Adamson" <aadamson@highrf.com>
    Subject: SD-20 Alt performance chart?
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alan K. Adamson" <aadamson@highrf.com> Bob, did you ever put together one of these for the SD-20? B&C specify 20A output at 3500rpm, so I would assume that you could use the same "ratios" and determine that on a continental for example, that is a 1.15:1, that you'd have full output at 2900ish rpm? http://www.aeroelectric.com/Reference_Docs/Alternator_Data/SD8-Performance.p df


    Message 14


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    Time: 08:24:55 AM PST US
    Subject: Baclup Battery monitor
    From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com> Simplest way is to take a second battery and charge it through a diode from the main bettery. That way if the main battry has a major short somewhere it will not drag down the second batery with it. The problem with diodes is they all have a forward volt drop, standard diodes are about 1 volt drop. So if your system charges at say 14.2 volts, your second battery will only see 13.2V. I believe the Shotkey (sp?) diode has a much lower drop...Althouigh I don't know what it is. My way round this issue on my current plane is to use a smaller battery for the second ignition that requires a lower charging voltage. So my first battery is a 18AH and my backup is a 3AH, and is used to run one EI and a Facet fuel pump, nothing else. No points of interconnect between the systems except for the diode. Make sure the diode is sized to flow enough current to run your backup EI and you can simply run your backup EI from the second battery all the time, i.e no chageover contactors or other components that could fail. If you do it this way there is really no need to montior the second battery as you will be changing it every year or so anyway...I use a simple digital voltmeter and check it before each flight. All the best Frank Zenair zodiac 400 hours RV7a...ALMOST finished..:) -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mitchell Goodrich Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 7:48 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Baclup Battery monitor --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mitchell Goodrich" --> <mgoodrich@tampabay.rr.com> Hello All, I am installing a backup battery for a dual EI installation. I'm looking for a way to monitor w/warning, the voltage and possibly load on it. Any ideas?? Mitchell Goodrich VEZE 60P Tampa,FL -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mickey Coggins Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 3:24 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Avionics ground bus kit --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch> Hi, I vaguely recall hearing that someone was putting together a kit or perhaps a finished avionics ground bus like Bob shows in this photo: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Grounding/Avionics_Bus_3.jpg Does anyone know where I can purchase either the kit or (preferably) the finished product? Thanks, Mickey -- Mickey Coggins http://www.rv8.ch/ #82007 finishing


    Message 15


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    Time: 08:36:36 AM PST US
    From: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" <BigD@DaveMorris.com>
    Subject: Re: An Architecture Question - Z13
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" <BigD@DaveMorris.com> If I understand your point correctly, you probably should think through the scenario wherein you would feel comfortable doing that level of detective work in a potentially busy cockpit. The beauty of the e-bus is that you just flip a switch (or it gets flipped for you), and then you have a known quantity of time remaining before you need to think about landing. No systematic reduction of things, no long division in your head, no thinking required. Just flip the switch and go to Plan B. Dave Morris At 09:09 AM 2/24/2006, you wrote: >in case of an alternator failure, I can simply >switch to the auxiliary alternator and systematically reduce my loads until >the alternator is picking up the full load without worrying what is attached >to each bus.


    Message 16


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    Time: 08:46:09 AM PST US
    From: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" <BigD@DaveMorris.com>
    Subject: Baclup Battery monitor
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" <BigD@DaveMorris.com> Facet pumps draw about 1.5A, don't they? And your EI draws how much? 3AH seems awfully small to me. I'm guessing the Duration vs Current curve for that battery gives you 3A for 30 minutes. Is that enough? Dave Morris www.N75UP.com At 10:22 AM 2/24/2006, you wrote: >So my first battery is a 18AH and my backup is a 3AH, and is used to run >one EI and a Facet fuel pump, nothing else.


    Message 17


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    Time: 09:02:49 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Z-14 FADEC Version Question with P.S.
    From: "dannylsmith" <dsmit132@bellsouth.net>
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "dannylsmith" <dsmit132@bellsouth.net> Thanks for the help Bob! -------- Danny Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=14679#14679


    Message 18


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    Time: 09:02:49 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
    Subject: Baclup Battery monitor
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net> At 08:22 AM 2/24/2006 -0800, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" ><frank.hinde@hp.com> > >Simplest way is to take a second battery and charge it through a diode >from the main bettery. That way if the main battry has a major short >somewhere it will not drag down the second batery with it. > >The problem with diodes is they all have a forward volt drop, standard >diodes are about 1 volt drop. So if your system charges at say 14.2 >volts, your second battery will only see 13.2V. Which is a major issue for recharging the standby battery to 100% of capacity. >I believe the Shotkey (sp?) diode has a much lower drop...Althouigh I >don't know what it is. > >My way round this issue on my current plane is to use a smaller battery >for the second ignition that requires a lower charging voltage. Battery size does not drive ideal charging voltage. We use the same Battery Tender products to maintain 1.5 a.h. batteries as for 50 a.h. batteries. Ideal voltage for charging is driven by chemistry first and temperature second. There's been some discussion about optimizing charging protocols based on flooded vs. gel vs. RG which have proven to be a third order concern. IF you use a battery as motive/standby power and IF it's regularly discharged to a fraction of capacity and immediately recharged then you MIGHT see some increase in service life with a pampering suggested by folks who program smart chargers. For all others where you crank first, stabilize alternators second and supply standby power perhaps once in a lifetime of the battery, the magic charging protocols yield no measurable return on investment. >So my first battery is a 18AH and my backup is a 3AH, and is used to run >one EI and a Facet fuel pump, nothing else. > >No points of interconnect between the systems except for the diode. > >Make sure the diode is sized to flow enough current to run your backup >EI and you can simply run your backup EI from the second battery all the >time, i.e no chageover contactors or other components that could fail. > >If you do it this way there is really no need to montior the second >battery as you will be changing it every year or so anyway...I use a >simple digital voltmeter and check it before each flight. As described in other posts, an open circuit voltage check of a battery is a very gross examination of battery condition (at least it's not discharged) and yields no accurate data as to capacity. The yearly change-out is the practical hedge against the unknown. A series of articles have been crafted dealing with second battery management techniques: http://aeroelectric.com/articles/lvwarn/LVWarn-ABMM.html http://aeroelectric.com/articles/lvwarn/9021-620.pdf http://aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9005/9005.html http://aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9005/9005-701B.pdf These are illustrated in appendix Z, most notably Figure Z-30 of: http://aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9005/9005-701B.pdf where the aux battery switching device can be any size of switch or contactor suited to the task and the battery can also be selected for capacity suited to the task. Key considerations are: (1) connect the standby battery to the main system via lowest practical resistance i.e. toggle switch or relay. (2) Have active notification of low voltage that prompts you to open the switch or automatically opens a relay or contactor . . . it doesn't matter. You have PLENTY of time to react and there's little advantage in making this function automatic. The hard connection through a switch or relay insures that your standby battery gets the same benefits of recharge as your main battery. Bob . . .


    Message 19


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    Time: 09:03:40 AM PST US
    Subject: Baclup Battery monitor
    From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com> I measured the Facet and it was less than an amp...Can't remember what the EI draws but I did measure it at the time. The Zodiac is strictly a VFR airplane and most failure modes would leave some juice left in the main battery. So I think I assumed about 20 minutes of flight on Batt #2. If I were re-doing it today I think the more modern diode (with lower volt drop) would mean I could use a bigger battery. Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Morris "BigD" Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 8:44 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Baclup Battery monitor --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" --> <BigD@DaveMorris.com> Facet pumps draw about 1.5A, don't they? And your EI draws how much? 3AH seems awfully small to me. I'm guessing the Duration vs Current curve for that battery gives you 3A for 30 minutes. Is that enough? Dave Morris www.N75UP.com At 10:22 AM 2/24/2006, you wrote: >So my first battery is a 18AH and my backup is a 3AH, and is used to >run one EI and a Facet fuel pump, nothing else.


    Message 20


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    Time: 09:04:32 AM PST US
    From: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
    Subject: Re: Baclup Battery monitor
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch> > The problem with diodes is they all have a forward volt drop, standard > diodes are about 1 volt drop. So if your system charges at say 14.2 > volts, your second battery will only see 13.2V. > > I believe the Shotkey (sp?) diode has a much lower drop...Althouigh I > don't know what it is. Use one of Eric's Power Schotty diodes - they don't have much voltage drop at all. http://www.periheliondesign.com/powerschottkydiodes.htm -- Mickey Coggins http://www.rv8.ch/ #82007 finishing


    Message 21


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    Time: 09:06:00 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: SD-20 Alt performance chart?
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net> At 10:51 AM 2/24/2006 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alan K. Adamson" ><aadamson@highrf.com> > >Bob, did you ever put together one of these for the SD-20? B&C specify 20A >output at 3500rpm, so I would assume that you could use the same "ratios" >and determine that on a continental for example, that is a 1.15:1, that >you'd have full output at 2900ish rpm? > >http://www.aeroelectric.com/Reference_Docs/Alternator_Data/SD8-Performance.p >df The SD-20 is an L-40 with different shoes. It's limited in output only because of the reduced speed on the vacuum pump pad. It's performance is described on B&C's website at: http://bandc.biz/SD20REVC.pdf Bob . . .


    Message 22


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    Time: 09:17:21 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: What happens if OV trips?
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net> At 08:25 AM 2/24/2006 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken <klehman@albedo.net> > >Hi Scott >I don't believe any of the Z architectures run two alternators in >parallel such that both would trip together. Z-12 does and the regulators specified are 'smart' enough to know if an ov condition is caused by local failure or is coming from another alternator. >However if a crowbar activates it becomes a momentary short until the CB >pops. Reset the CB and everything goes back to normal unless the voltage >goes high again in which case the breaker will immediately pop again. >Nuisance tripping seems to be quite rare and IMO one should not tolerate >any nuisance trips but rather find out why that is happening and fix it. >While I don't have much engine running time accumulated yet, I have not >been able to instigate a single nuisance trip with the latest homemade >version of Bob's crowbar circuit dated Jan 2006. I could instigate them >with earlier homemade versions. >Ken Absolutely. Nuisance trips are a fact of life in virtually every design that stands as close as practical to the edge. You DESIRE sensitivity to the failure but in some cases, there is overlap between things that should and should not be reacted to. Of all the OV systems I've worked in the past 30 years, I'll guess that perhaps 1/3 of them needed some tweaking after first delivery. This is the nature of the beast that is a quest for best response to a hazard and ability to filter and ignore conditions that are not hazardous. >Scott wrote: > > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Scott" <scott@randolphs.net> > > > >If the "crowbar" overvoltage protection trips, is it a permanent fault or > >something that can be reset on the fly? > > > >I'm interested in general in how it works, but specificly thinking now about > >the possibility of one alternator tripping both OV circuits if both > >alternators happen to be on (by design or switchology error). If that > >happened, would both alternators be permanently disabled or would turning > >off the faulty one allow the other to be brought back online? Virtually all ov systems for aircraft have allowed resetting by the pilot with one notable exception. American/Grumman had a po' boy's crowbar OV system using a zener and an upstream fuse. A trip event took out a fuse and most often shorted the zener. However, while crude in implementation, this system was immune to nuisance trips. Cheap, effective and few downsides. Bob . . .


    Message 23


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    Time: 09:20:33 AM PST US
    From: Bill Dube <william.p.dube@noaa.gov>
    Subject: Re: Odyssey % of charge
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Bill Dube <william.p.dube@noaa.gov> State-of-charge meters, like the Link-10 <http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/97/p/1/pt/5/product.asp> add up the amp-hrs in and out (in a fancy manner) to figure the state-of-charge. If the battery is damaged or worn out, (or the unit loses track of what has happened lately,) the remaining capacity displayed is incorrect. The high-tech battery testers like <http://www.batterymart.com/battery.mv?p=ACC-SB-300> often use the impedance of the battery to judge its health. If you measure voltage, current, and temperature, and play them against each other, you can estimate the state-of-charge and the health of the battery. This is more what you want for an aircraft instrument. The key is measuring impedance (along with an estimate of OCV) and comparing it to what had been measured before under similar conditions. Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net> > >At 05:30 AM 2/24/2006 -0800, you wrote: > > > >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com> >> >>Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >> >> >> >>> HERE'S THE POT HOLE - THE 30 MINUTE DISCHARGE CURVE >>> OF 26.4 AMPS SAYS THE CAPACITY IS 26.4A X 0.5 HOURS >>> OR 13.2 A.H., NOT 26 A.H. >>> >>> I SHOULD HAVE CAUGHT THAT . . . A 33 TO 26 REDUCTION >>> IN APPARENT CAPACITY FOR A 15X LARGER DISCHARGE >>> RATE DIDN'T RAISE THE FLAGS. FOUND IT WHILE ARCHIVING >>> THE POST. >>> >>> >>Welcome to Peukert's exponent. If you know the capacity at two different >>discharge rates you can interpolate or extrapolate the capacity off the >>battery at other discharge rates. >> >> > > Yeah . . . sorta. I'm working on that question along with the > notion that owning one of those super-charge-all smart battery > chargers is a good thing to do to. I'll give you all a forecast > on present findings: > > An $80 smart charger and $??$ capacity meter are not well suited > to our ultimate design goals (1) know that the battery is mission > capable every time we walk up to the airplane and (2) have tools > requiring minimum expense and user time/attention to track that > capability. None of the devices I cited above do a very good job > of meeting those goals. An article on alternative hardware proposals > is in the works. > > Bob . . . > > > < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > > < the authority which determines whether there can be > > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > > < with experiment. > > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > > > > > > > > > >


    Message 24


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    Time: 09:24:23 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net> Manual
    Subject: Re: SD8 Alternator Install - Z-12 vs. Manual
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net> Manual At 10:31 AM 2/24/2006 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Steve & Denise" ><sjhdcl@kingston.net> > >I thought the point in having the warning light for the aux alternator is >tell you it is overloaded and >equipment needs to be turned off?? That's a special feature that is built into B&C's regulators for the SD-20 only when used as aux alternators. These regulators are fitted with a current sensor. See: http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev11/AppZ_R11E.pdf . . . latest revision to Z-12 where the SD-20 is controlled by an SB-1 regulator. This is an excellent example of how you need to UNDERSTAND exactly what is meant by "warning light" and exactly what functions come with it. I'm doing an article on the MC33092A voltage regulator chip mentioned by Jon earlier this week. A careful analysis of the regulator's functionality yields some interesting things about how the warning light works, what it means, and whether or not the chip is suited for use in our airplanes to meed certain design goals. A wire coming out of a black box to drive a "warning light" tells you nothing about the functionality of the light. This must be gleaned from more detailed data as to how the lamp driver works . . . as will be illustrated for the MC33092. Bob . . .


    Message 25


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    Time: 09:27:49 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: Odyssey % of charge
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net> At 07:14 AM 2/24/2006 -0800, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com> > >Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > An $80 smart charger and $??$ capacity meter are not well suited > > to our ultimate design goals (1) know that the battery is mission > > capable every time we walk up to the airplane and (2) have tools > > requiring minimum expense and user time/attention to track that > > capability. None of the devices I cited above do a very good job > > of meeting those goals. An article on alternative hardware proposals > > is in the works. > >Having a smart energy monitor is necessary in a system where you will >have irregular charge/discharge cycles and want to know how much is left >in the battery. Agreed . . . but how does this happen on an airplane and how often might one expect to encounter it? . . . and are there less complicated and more positive ways to achieve the desired mission/maintenance conditions? >If you always recharge the battery to full every time, >you can have a much simpler energy monitor that isn't quite so smart. Yup. >The biggest issue as I see it is that you need to make sure you don't >overcharge the battery in summer but that you do actually charge the >battery in winter. That implies temperature compensation. Agreed . . . and it's not clear that we have really practical ways to achieve that. The LR-3 from B&C offers a battery temp sensor option. But it's not clear to me that this option will produce really meaningful differences in battery performance for most of our fellow airplane drivers. Bob . . . < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss >


    Message 26


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    Time: 09:27:49 AM PST US
    Subject: Baclup Battery monitor
    From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com> Interesting, The battery manufacturer actually dictated the charging voltage as being lower for the smaller battery. Both are SLA's. The other piece I missed about my battery maintenance is that they are connected to a smart charger when left in the hangar, so at least I have a good charge when I start out. Based on the above would you recommend raising the charging voltage by using a lower loss diode?...I could change for a switch but that gives me something else I have to remember. Cheers Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 9:02 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Baclup Battery monitor --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" --> <nuckollsr@cox.net> At 08:22 AM 2/24/2006 -0800, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" ><frank.hinde@hp.com> > >Simplest way is to take a second battery and charge it through a diode >from the main bettery. That way if the main battry has a major short >somewhere it will not drag down the second batery with it. > >The problem with diodes is they all have a forward volt drop, standard >diodes are about 1 volt drop. So if your system charges at say 14.2 >volts, your second battery will only see 13.2V. Which is a major issue for recharging the standby battery to 100% of capacity.


    Message 27


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    Time: 09:35:53 AM PST US
    From: "Alan K. Adamson" <aadamson@highrf.com>
    Subject: SD-20 Alt performance chart?
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alan K. Adamson" <aadamson@highrf.com> Cuz the ignorance, but what ALT rpm would I expect to see on a continental io-550 vacuum pad, when the engine is turning 2500 RPM? Alan -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 12:05 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: SD-20 Alt performance chart? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" --> <nuckollsr@cox.net> At 10:51 AM 2/24/2006 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alan K. Adamson" ><aadamson@highrf.com> > >Bob, did you ever put together one of these for the SD-20? B&C specify >20A output at 3500rpm, so I would assume that you could use the same "ratios" >and determine that on a continental for example, that is a 1.15:1, that >you'd have full output at 2900ish rpm? > >http://www.aeroelectric.com/Reference_Docs/Alternator_Data/SD8-Performa >nce.p >df The SD-20 is an L-40 with different shoes. It's limited in output only because of the reduced speed on the vacuum pump pad. It's performance is described on B&C's website at: http://bandc.biz/SD20REVC.pdf Bob . . .


    Message 28


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    Time: 09:54:56 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: An Architecture Question - Z13
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net> At 08:09 AM 2/24/2006 -0700, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Todd Richmond" ><trichmond@obermeyer.com> > >All, > > >I have been reading the AeroElectric posts for several weeks now and find >the forum extremely useful as I begin designing the electrical system for my >RV-7A (that and re-reading the AeroElectric Connection several times). I am >planning an all electric airplane based on the Grand Rapids EFIS/EIS system, >Garmin 430, E-Mag / P-Mag combo and all the other little gizmos I can fit >(afford). At this point, I'm basing my architecture on the Z-13 with a 60 >Amp alternator and SD-20 auxiliary alternator. Why so much snort? 'lectric toe heaters? Hot prop? Air conditioning? Where does Z-13/8 fall short of your requirements for operational power? > > >So my first question is this. do I need an e-bus? The only reason I can >figure is that without the e-bus, the master battery contactor becomes a >single point of failure. If true, could I simply wire two battery >contactors in parallel and run them via a 2-10 switch? To me the advantage >of this approach is that in case of an alternator failure, I can simply >switch to the auxiliary alternator and systematically reduce my loads until >the alternator is picking up the full load without worrying what is attached >to each bus. It would be presumptuous of us to tell you what you 'need'. After a review of chapter 17, what are your power requirements to continue flight sweat-free in spite of any single failure? One should never "worry" about any aspect of operating your electrical system. This isn't a jazz combo where one should be prepared to improvise an impressive new rift at a moment's notice. EVERYTHING you might expect to encounter is 100% predictable which includes loads, numbers and sizes of available energy sources and combinations of sources and loads really useful for the various phases of flight. >My second question is would it make sense to wire both alternators to a DP3T >switch? My thought being that this approach ensures only one alternator may >be operating at a time and thus would prevent them from inadvertently >fighting one another. > >Any input is gratefully appreciated. Keep in mind that the Z-figures have been crafted over 15 years of sifting the options. The features shown all have reasons for their incorporation. I'll respectfully suggest that you do a load analysis first. How much snort is necessary for normal en-route operations, how much is necessary for alternator-out operations and for how long. Answers to these questions drive sizing of alternator(s) and battery(ies). Then pick a Z-figure that seems closest to your NEEDS and then tell us how that figure falls short of some perceived NEED. I'm not suggesting for a moment that the z-figures are "golden" . . . but at the same time, if any figure is deficient in some feature that makes sense, I'd be pleased to revise the the drawing or create a new one. That's how new figures find their way into the book. You are presently at the stage where it's important to know the difference between what's needed and what's simply cool (wanted). We wouldn't presume to tell you that what you want shouldn't be considered either . . . but it's important that you have those two buckets understood. A watchword of system reliability is simplicity. Keep parts count down, avoid single points of failure, keep operational options down (ZERO probability of in-flight worries). Bob . . .


    Message 29


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    Time: 11:32:25 AM PST US
    Subject: Rotax Battery/Regulator Questions
    From: "Bill Denton" <bdenton@bdenton.com>
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Denton" <bdenton@bdenton.com> I am referencing the Rotax wiring diagrams at the following link: http://www.rotax-aircraft-engines.com/pdf/dokus/d00287.pdf The diagrams are located on Adobe Acrobat page 53 of 68, which is Rotax page number 18-5. There are three diagrams on the page, I am referring to the bottom two, labeled "wiring diagram in conjuction with a battery" which I will call "No Starter", and "wiring diagram for electric starter", which I will call "Starter". On the No Starter diagram, it calls for a 12V 9Ah minimum battery, while on the Starter diagram, it calls for a 12V 16Ah minimum battery. I am assuming that the additional capacity of the battery on the Starter diagram is specified in order to provide adequate starting power. My question has to do with the No Starter diagram. Why is the "9Ah minimum" specified, and what would be the result of using a lower capacity battery? In one of the (many!) projects I am considering, I would be using a Rotax 477 without an electric starter. However, I would have Nav/Strobe/Landing lights, a couple of small electronic gauges, a handheld NAV/COM, a handheld GPS, and a panel mount transponder, all connected to ship's power. My reasons for considering the use of a battery would be to provide pre-start power for the radio and GPS and to provide power in an engine-out situation. I'm also thinking that it would keep the available power up during low RPM operations, and possibly "smooth" the power a bit. Is my reasoning okay on this? Would I actually need a 9Ah battery for these purposes, or would a smaller unit suffice? If a battery smaller than 9Ah is acceptable from a load standpoint, would a smaller battery create a problem with the regulator/rectifier? Now a question specific to the No Starter diagram: Would it be acceptable to install a toggle-switch circuit breaker in place of the 16A fuse in the black wire which runs between the regulator and the battery? Would it be desirable to have a means of isolating the regulator in this way? What size circuit breaker should be used? Thanks in advance for anyone's help, and if my questions are less than clear or less than properly worded, please feel free to read between the lines! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=14740#14740


    Message 30


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    Time: 11:38:55 AM PST US
    From: "Todd Richmond" <trichmond@obermeyer.com>
    Subject: An Architecture Question - Z13
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Todd Richmond" <trichmond@obermeyer.com> All good points, which lead to two operational questions assuming the Z-13/8. First, I would assume that normal operations would include closing the alternate feed switch to the e-bus, true? And second, is there a risk of damage should the SD-8 inadvertently become activated while the primary alternator is running? Hopefully these aren't ignorant questions. Thanks. Todd R. Richmond trichmond@obermeyer.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 10:52 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: An Architecture Question - Z13 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net> At 08:09 AM 2/24/2006 -0700, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Todd Richmond" ><trichmond@obermeyer.com> > >All, > > >I have been reading the AeroElectric posts for several weeks now and find >the forum extremely useful as I begin designing the electrical system for my >RV-7A (that and re-reading the AeroElectric Connection several times). I am >planning an all electric airplane based on the Grand Rapids EFIS/EIS system, >Garmin 430, E-Mag / P-Mag combo and all the other little gizmos I can fit >(afford). At this point, I'm basing my architecture on the Z-13 with a 60 >Amp alternator and SD-20 auxiliary alternator. Why so much snort? 'lectric toe heaters? Hot prop? Air conditioning? Where does Z-13/8 fall short of your requirements for operational power? > > >So my first question is this. do I need an e-bus? The only reason I can >figure is that without the e-bus, the master battery contactor becomes a >single point of failure. If true, could I simply wire two battery >contactors in parallel and run them via a 2-10 switch? To me the advantage >of this approach is that in case of an alternator failure, I can simply >switch to the auxiliary alternator and systematically reduce my loads until >the alternator is picking up the full load without worrying what is attached >to each bus. It would be presumptuous of us to tell you what you 'need'. After a review of chapter 17, what are your power requirements to continue flight sweat-free in spite of any single failure? One should never "worry" about any aspect of operating your electrical system. This isn't a jazz combo where one should be prepared to improvise an impressive new rift at a moment's notice. EVERYTHING you might expect to encounter is 100% predictable which includes loads, numbers and sizes of available energy sources and combinations of sources and loads really useful for the various phases of flight. >My second question is would it make sense to wire both alternators to a DP3T >switch? My thought being that this approach ensures only one alternator may >be operating at a time and thus would prevent them from inadvertently >fighting one another. > >Any input is gratefully appreciated. Keep in mind that the Z-figures have been crafted over 15 years of sifting the options. The features shown all have reasons for their incorporation. I'll respectfully suggest that you do a load analysis first. How much snort is necessary for normal en-route operations, how much is necessary for alternator-out operations and for how long. Answers to these questions drive sizing of alternator(s) and battery(ies). Then pick a Z-figure that seems closest to your NEEDS and then tell us how that figure falls short of some perceived NEED. I'm not suggesting for a moment that the z-figures are "golden" . . . but at the same time, if any figure is deficient in some feature that makes sense, I'd be pleased to revise the the drawing or create a new one. That's how new figures find their way into the book. You are presently at the stage where it's important to know the difference between what's needed and what's simply cool (wanted). We wouldn't presume to tell you that what you want shouldn't be considered either . . . but it's important that you have those two buckets understood. A watchword of system reliability is simplicity. Keep parts count down, avoid single points of failure, keep operational options down (ZERO probability of in-flight worries). Bob . . .


    Message 31


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    Time: 12:36:42 PM PST US
    From: <gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: Strange alternator behavior at Startup (Mickey
    and Bob N.) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com> Mickey wants to turn his car off at 100 mph and AND Bob N. wants proof. Fair enough. Also I'll take any failed VOLTAGE regulator for professional evaluation. Mickey wrote: "What happens if you are driving down the highway at 100 mph, everything working fine, and you turn the key off?" Dear Mickey: I am so laughing out loud. I hope you are trying to be funny. To answer your question you would DIE when the steering locks and you fly off the road. Do you often turn your car's ignition OFF at 100 mph? I'll repeat the intended purpose of the IGN lead is a small signal current/voltage to tell the alternator to come alive or go to sleep. IT IS NOT designed to "CONTROL" high amp loads of the alternator under load. It is also does not control the field directly. To answer your question, if you turn the ignition off at 100 MPH, it's no different than at zero MPH. In a car the first position, normal driving is ignition. The next position is accessory, than off. Now in your scenario if you kill the ignition the engine will shut down even at 100 mph with an automatic. With a manual and the clutch out the engine will turn a little? Now lets say you turn the ignition switch OFF/locked steering! Now let's turn the ignition off, alternator off and load at 100 MPH? Only the head lights and brake lights work. The alternator is still connected to battery and the engine will lets assume keep turning (manual transmission going down a steep hill). Now lets say you turn the IGN on again to run? Could you do some ALT damage? NOW TELL ME IF THIS IS realistic? Ha ha ha ha ha Now when you look at the key function on a car, I think most bring the alternator on first than the load (master realy). I could be wrong. Reagardless your senerio is not going to happen in the real worlds. Mickey I think you need to test this and get back to us. : - ) Mickey your are my idol, smart and have a beautiful airplane project (you do nice work), but you need to get out of the shop and get fresh air. : -) This is not how they are designed to work. To clarify, I think most of the damage of IGN switching under load is not turning it OFF, but happens when you turn it BACK ON under load. Now I know many ND alternator will shut down with the IGN lead and come back ON under load with IGN lead. I suspect Van's alternator in question may already be damaged. The first sign of damage, after controlling the alternator under load successfully with the IGN lead, both OFF and ON, is it stops responding to the IGN. Why? Not sure, send me the I-VR and I'll have it tested and failure mode tested. There may be some ND alternators that will be happy to switch the IGN lead all day under load, but it seems that they protest after a while. Sorry Bob N., no proof just seen it 3-4 times, there is a pattern. Repeatable? Looks that way. My proof is how they are wired in the application it was designed for. Nuff said. Look at how cars and industrial applications use these alternators, designed so you CAN'T turn it OFF or ON under load normally, except for the wild 100 mph scenario Mickey (get help) came up with above. Even than I don't think it makes a difference. Bob N. wrote: "Can you point us to any published literature on this? Please understand that I'm not attacking your assertions with any kind of "PROVE IT" attitude." Bob, I know you dislike internal regulation but everything Jon said is true & typical of an I-VR. They DO have *soft start, they do have RPM drop out and they do have temperature compensation. I am no expert, but I talk to experts. The temperature compensation function I know monitors high temp protection, but I do not know about a cold weather temp control function. It should be noted that EXTERNAL voltage regulators have no idea of alternators internal temps and do not protect the alternator from high temps like I-VR's do. (one for the internal voltage regulators!) *(soft start, ramps-up slow, also combined with time delay after target RPM is reached.) Bob, I know you will never believe me, no matter what evidence I show, so I won't try. I have seen you dismiss too many people and too set in your opinions to play that game, so Bob I suggest you contact TRANSPO engineering, world wide producers of almost every voltage regulator ever made. They will clue you into the intelligent and logic functions of I-VR's. They really are smart devices, not dumb VR's. They have all the features mentioned. http://www.transpo-usa.com/ For the record I do not think the cold temp is the reason for this problem, but I could be wrong. I think the I-VR may have been damaged already from the crow-bar or switching the IGN lead ON/OFF under load. Also for the record the IGN can and do control the alternator under load on many ND models, but NOT designed for this routinely and eventually damage results. As far as control of I-VR alternators, it would be wonderful to use and trust the IGN wire. We could put a crow-bar on the CB to the IGN lead. However you can't depend on it (apparently from historical & empirical data). That's why a pullable CB on the B- lead, to positively isolate the alternator, independent of anything is suggested. Another way to achieve the same isolation is the crow bar and over voltage relay on the B-lead. That works also but its heavy, costly, complicated and potentially can cause nuisance trips. In defense of the crow-bar it is automatic. The pullable CB needs pilot action. The choice is the builders. As Bob N. says if you can't take the small chance of an OV, than use an External Regulator and OV module of some kind. if for no other reason it is simple. However there is no guarantee that will work 100% There's no 100% system. Cheers George --------------------------------- Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze.


    Message 32


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    Time: 12:48:13 PM PST US
    From: BobsV35B@aol.com
    Subject: Re: SD-20 Alt performance chart?
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com In a message dated 2/24/2006 11:37:58 A.M. Central Standard Time, aadamson@highrf.com writes: Cuz the ignorance, but what ALT rpm would I expect to see on a continental io-550 vacuum pad, when the engine is turning 2500 RPM? Alan 7500 Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8503


    Message 33


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    Time: 12:48:33 PM PST US
    From: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
    Subject: Re: Odyssey % of charge
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com> Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >> Having a smart energy monitor is necessary in a system where you will >> have irregular charge/discharge cycles and want to know how much is left >> in the battery. > > > Agreed . . . but how does this happen on an airplane and how > often might one expect to encounter it? . . . and are there > less complicated and more positive ways to achieve the desired > mission/maintenance conditions? Oh, I agree that you don't need a complex energy monitor nor do you need a fancy charger. OTOH, I have had experience with batteries failing due to overcharge in hot weather and failing to charge properly in cold weather. >> If you always recharge the battery to full every time, >> you can have a much simpler energy monitor that isn't quite so smart. > > Yup. > > >> The biggest issue as I see it is that you need to make sure you don't >> overcharge the battery in summer but that you do actually charge the >> battery in winter. That implies temperature compensation. > > Agreed . . . and it's not clear that we have really practical > ways to achieve that. The LR-3 from B&C offers a battery temp > sensor option. But it's not clear to me that this option will > produce really meaningful differences in battery performance for > most of our fellow airplane drivers. I believe that this is one of the key reasons why current crop of "sealed" AGM aircraft batteries have such a poor service record. Flooded cell batteries shrug off overcharge by just boiling off excess water which gets topped off by the owner or mechanic. AGMs build up pressure in the case and valves open and relieve the pressure, letting the water go to the atmosphere. The AGM battery, having no excess electrolyte/water, quickly quits working. I have never had an AGM battery (Concorde especially) survive longer than two years in a standard aircraft electrical system. Brian Lloyd brian-yak@lloyd.com


    Message 34


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    Time: 01:03:39 PM PST US
    Subject: Baclup Battery monitor
    From: "Matt Prather" <mprather@spro.net>
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" <mprather@spro.net> Is the Facet pump used continuously? Or only for takeoff, landing, or in the event of a main (engine driven) pump failure? If only intermittent duty, leave it out of the backup battery power budget. The chances of an alternator failure, and an engine driven pump failure on the same flight are exceedingly low... Matt- > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George > (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com> > > I measured the Facet and it was less than an amp...Can't remember what > the EI draws but I did measure it at the time. > The Zodiac is strictly a VFR airplane and most failure modes would leave > some juice left in the main battery. > > So I think I assumed about 20 minutes of flight on Batt #2. > > If I were re-doing it today I think the more modern diode (with lower > volt drop) would mean I could use a bigger battery. > > Frank > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave > Morris "BigD" > Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 8:44 AM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Baclup Battery monitor > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" > --> <BigD@DaveMorris.com> > > Facet pumps draw about 1.5A, don't they? And your EI draws how much? > 3AH seems awfully small to me. I'm guessing the Duration vs Current > curve for that battery gives you 3A for 30 minutes. Is that enough? > > Dave Morris > www.N75UP.com > > At 10:22 AM 2/24/2006, you wrote: >>So my first battery is a 18AH and my backup is a 3AH, and is used to >> run one EI and a Facet fuel pump, nothing else. > >


    Message 35


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    Time: 01:34:54 PM PST US
    From: "Alan K. Adamson" <aadamson@highrf.com>
    Subject: SD-20 Alt performance chart?
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alan K. Adamson" <aadamson@highrf.com> Bob, does that make sense. 7500 would give almost 40amps out of the SD-20, is a continental really 3:1 on the vacuum pad? Engine rpm 2500, vacuum pad 7500? Alan -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B@aol.com Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 3:47 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: SD-20 Alt performance chart? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com In a message dated 2/24/2006 11:37:58 A.M. Central Standard Time, aadamson@highrf.com writes: Cuz the ignorance, but what ALT rpm would I expect to see on a continental io-550 vacuum pad, when the engine is turning 2500 RPM? Alan 7500 Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8503


    Message 36


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    Time: 02:00:59 PM PST US
    Subject: Baclup Battery monitor
    From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com> I have two electric pumps One in each wing root. No mechanical fuel pump. The FI RV is being set up the same way. To switch tanks I simply switch pumps. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Matt Prather Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 1:03 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Baclup Battery monitor --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" --> <mprather@spro.net> Is the Facet pump used continuously? Or only for takeoff, landing, or in the event of a main (engine driven) pump failure? If only intermittent duty, leave it out of the backup battery power budget. The chances of an alternator failure, and an engine driven pump failure on the same flight are exceedingly low... Matt- > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George > (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com> > > I measured the Facet and it was less than an amp...Can't remember what > the EI draws but I did measure it at the time. > The Zodiac is strictly a VFR airplane and most failure modes would > leave some juice left in the main battery. > > So I think I assumed about 20 minutes of flight on Batt #2. > > If I were re-doing it today I think the more modern diode (with lower > volt drop) would mean I could use a bigger battery. > > Frank > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Dave Morris "BigD" > Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 8:44 AM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Baclup Battery monitor > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" > --> <BigD@DaveMorris.com> > > Facet pumps draw about 1.5A, don't they? And your EI draws how much? > 3AH seems awfully small to me. I'm guessing the Duration vs Current > curve for that battery gives you 3A for 30 minutes. Is that enough? > > Dave Morris > www.N75UP.com > > At 10:22 AM 2/24/2006, you wrote: >>So my first battery is a 18AH and my backup is a 3AH, and is used to >>run one EI and a Facet fuel pump, nothing else. > >


    Message 37


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    Time: 05:12:33 PM PST US
    Subject: SD-20 Alt performance chart?
    From: "George Braly" <gwbraly@gami.com>
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "George Braly" <gwbraly@gami.com> Six cylinder vacuum pads that are on the same drive shaft as the magnetos turn at 1.5 x crank RPM. George -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Alan K. Adamson Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 11:31 AM Subject: Spam> RE: AeroElectric-List: SD-20 Alt performance chart? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alan K. Adamson" <aadamson@highrf.com> Cuz the ignorance, but what ALT rpm would I expect to see on a continental io-550 vacuum pad, when the engine is turning 2500 RPM? Alan -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 12:05 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: SD-20 Alt performance chart? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" --> <nuckollsr@cox.net> At 10:51 AM 2/24/2006 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alan K. Adamson" ><aadamson@highrf.com> > >Bob, did you ever put together one of these for the SD-20? B&C specify >20A output at 3500rpm, so I would assume that you could use the same "ratios" >and determine that on a continental for example, that is a 1.15:1, that >you'd have full output at 2900ish rpm? > >http://www.aeroelectric.com/Reference_Docs/Alternator_Data/SD8-Performa >nce.p >df The SD-20 is an L-40 with different shoes. It's limited in output only because of the reduced speed on the vacuum pump pad. It's performance is described on B&C's website at: http://bandc.biz/SD20REVC.pdf Bob . . .


    Message 38


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    Time: 05:31:40 PM PST US
    From: Bill Dube <william.p.dube@noaa.gov>
    Subject: AGM longevity (was: Odyssey % of charge)
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Bill Dube <william.p.dube@noaa.gov> There are four main reasons why AGMs wear out. 1) Loss of electrolyte 2) Grid corrosion 3) Sulfation 4) Paste degradation If you overcharge an AGM excessively, it will lose electrolyte and dry out. This is NOT why they wear out in airplanes and cars (typically.) Typically, AGMs go bad because they are not properly charged. If you don't over charge them a little bit on a regular basis, the negative plate gets further and further behind the positive plate. The negative plate then sulfates and you lose capacity and cranking power. (In the short term, you lose capacity simply because the negative plate is not fully charged.) Why you don't need to add water to an AGM is that the oxygen and hydrogen gas recombine in the separator to form water. This recombination process is not 100% efficient, and it causes the negative plate to take slightly less charge than the positive plate when you re-charge the battery. Each cycle gets the negative plate a bit more behind. Occasionally, you need to purposely overcharge the battery to let the negative plate catch up with the positive plate. A couple times per year, you bring the battery up to 14.8 volts and let the current taper off to less than an amp. You then push in a constant current of about 4% of the amp-hr rating of the battery for about an hour. This cleans off the negative plate. High-end voltage regulators do something like this (like on boats and motor homes). Every time you start up the engine, it charges up the battery to normal voltage, then it gives the battery a slight overcharge for a few minutes. Makes the big expensive AGM batteries last much longer. >>>> What causes the other types of failures, just in case you wanted to know. <<< Excessive overcharging will cause the loss of electrolyte. Severe discharge, causing reversal of a cell or two, will also cause electrolyte loss. Grid corrosion occurs if you leave the battery on float for a long time. The oxygen gas formed eats at the grids that support the paste. Sulfation is caused by leaving the battery discharged for extended periods of time. Not fully charging the battery and leaving that way will also cause sulfation. Paste degradation is caused by repeated severe and/or deep discharges. Cranking the battery flat over and over is a good way to cause paste degradation. Brian Lloyd wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com> > >Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > >>>Having a smart energy monitor is necessary in a system where you will >>>have irregular charge/discharge cycles and want to know how much is left >>>in the battery. >>> >>> >> Agreed . . . but how does this happen on an airplane and how >> often might one expect to encounter it? . . . and are there >> less complicated and more positive ways to achieve the desired >> mission/maintenance conditions? >> >> > >Oh, I agree that you don't need a complex energy monitor nor do you need >a fancy charger. OTOH, I have had experience with batteries failing due >to overcharge in hot weather and failing to charge properly in cold weather. > > > >>>If you always recharge the battery to full every time, >>>you can have a much simpler energy monitor that isn't quite so smart. >>> >>> >> Yup. >> >> >> >> >>>The biggest issue as I see it is that you need to make sure you don't >>>overcharge the battery in summer but that you do actually charge the >>>battery in winter. That implies temperature compensation. >>> >>> >> Agreed . . . and it's not clear that we have really practical >> ways to achieve that. The LR-3 from B&C offers a battery temp >> sensor option. But it's not clear to me that this option will >> produce really meaningful differences in battery performance for >> most of our fellow airplane drivers. >> >> > >I believe that this is one of the key reasons why current crop of >"sealed" AGM aircraft batteries have such a poor service record. Flooded >cell batteries shrug off overcharge by just boiling off excess water >which gets topped off by the owner or mechanic. AGMs build up pressure >in the case and valves open and relieve the pressure, letting the water >go to the atmosphere. The AGM battery, having no excess >electrolyte/water, quickly quits working. I have never had an AGM >battery (Concorde especially) survive longer than two years in a >standard aircraft electrical system. > >Brian Lloyd >brian-yak@lloyd.com > > > > > > > > >


    Message 39


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    Time: 05:52:16 PM PST US
    From: "Alan K. Adamson" <aadamson@highrf.com>
    Subject: SD-20 Alt performance chart?
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alan K. Adamson" <aadamson@highrf.com> Thanks George, so for 2500 RPM indicated engine speed, the vacuum pump pad would be turning at 5000 rpm correct? That makes a little more sense. Alan -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Braly Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 8:13 PM Subject: RE: Spam> RE: AeroElectric-List: SD-20 Alt performance chart? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "George Braly" --> <gwbraly@gami.com> Six cylinder vacuum pads that are on the same drive shaft as the magnetos turn at 1.5 x crank RPM. George -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Alan K. Adamson Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 11:31 AM Subject: Spam> RE: AeroElectric-List: SD-20 Alt performance chart? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alan K. Adamson" <aadamson@highrf.com> Cuz the ignorance, but what ALT rpm would I expect to see on a continental io-550 vacuum pad, when the engine is turning 2500 RPM? Alan -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 12:05 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: SD-20 Alt performance chart? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" --> <nuckollsr@cox.net> At 10:51 AM 2/24/2006 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alan K. Adamson" ><aadamson@highrf.com> > >Bob, did you ever put together one of these for the SD-20? B&C specify >20A output at 3500rpm, so I would assume that you could use the same "ratios" >and determine that on a continental for example, that is a 1.15:1, that >you'd have full output at 2900ish rpm? > >http://www.aeroelectric.com/Reference_Docs/Alternator_Data/SD8-Performa >nce.p >df The SD-20 is an L-40 with different shoes. It's limited in output only because of the reduced speed on the vacuum pump pad. It's performance is described on B&C's website at: http://bandc.biz/SD20REVC.pdf Bob . . .


    Message 40


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    Time: 06:43:01 PM PST US
    Subject: SD-20 Alt performance chart?
    From: "Matt Prather" <mprather@spro.net>
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" <mprather@spro.net> Err... Math in public isn't a good idea.. 2500 * 1.5 = 3750.. Matt- > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alan K. Adamson" > <aadamson@highrf.com> > > Thanks George, so for 2500 RPM indicated engine speed, the vacuum pump > pad would be turning at 5000 rpm correct? That makes a little more > sense. > > Alan > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > George Braly > Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 8:13 PM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Spam> RE: AeroElectric-List: SD-20 Alt performance chart? > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "George Braly" > --> <gwbraly@gami.com> > > > Six cylinder vacuum pads that are on the same drive shaft as the > magnetos turn at 1.5 x crank RPM. > > George > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Alan > K. Adamson > Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 11:31 AM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: Spam> RE: AeroElectric-List: SD-20 Alt performance chart? > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alan K. Adamson" > <aadamson@highrf.com> > > Cuz the ignorance, but what ALT rpm would I expect to see on a > continental io-550 vacuum pad, when the engine is turning 2500 RPM? > > Alan > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Robert L. Nuckolls, III > Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 12:05 PM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: SD-20 Alt performance chart? > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" --> > <nuckollsr@cox.net> > > At 10:51 AM 2/24/2006 -0500, you wrote: > >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alan K. Adamson" >><aadamson@highrf.com> >> >>Bob, did you ever put together one of these for the SD-20? B&C specify > >>20A output at 3500rpm, so I would assume that you could use the same > "ratios" >>and determine that on a continental for example, that is a 1.15:1, that > >>you'd have full output at 2900ish rpm? >> >>http://www.aeroelectric.com/Reference_Docs/Alternator_Data/SD8-Performa >> nce.p >>df > > The SD-20 is an L-40 with different shoes. It's limited in output > only because of the reduced speed on the vacuum pump pad. It's > performance is described on B&C's website at: > > http://bandc.biz/SD20REVC.pdf > > Bob . . . > >


    Message 41


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    Time: 06:56:29 PM PST US
    From: "Bob McCallum" <robert.mccallum2@sympatico.ca>
    Subject: Re: SD-20 Alt performance chart?
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bob McCallum" <robert.mccallum2@sympatico.ca> Alan 1.5 x 2500 = 3750 NOT 5000 Bob McC ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan K. Adamson" <aadamson@highrf.com> Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 8:47 PM Subject: RE: Spam> RE: AeroElectric-List: SD-20 Alt performance chart? > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alan K. Adamson" <aadamson@highrf.com> > > Thanks George, so for 2500 RPM indicated engine speed, the vacuum pump pad > would be turning at 5000 rpm correct? That makes a little more sense. > > Alan > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of George > Braly > Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 8:13 PM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Spam> RE: AeroElectric-List: SD-20 Alt performance chart? > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "George Braly" > --> <gwbraly@gami.com> > > > Six cylinder vacuum pads that are on the same drive shaft as the magnetos > turn at 1.5 x crank RPM. > > George > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Alan K. > Adamson > Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 11:31 AM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: Spam> RE: AeroElectric-List: SD-20 Alt performance chart? > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alan K. Adamson" > <aadamson@highrf.com> > > Cuz the ignorance, but what ALT rpm would I expect to see on a continental > io-550 vacuum pad, when the engine is turning 2500 RPM? > > Alan > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. > Nuckolls, III > Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 12:05 PM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: SD-20 Alt performance chart? > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > --> <nuckollsr@cox.net> > > At 10:51 AM 2/24/2006 -0500, you wrote: > > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alan K. Adamson" > ><aadamson@highrf.com> > > > >Bob, did you ever put together one of these for the SD-20? B&C specify > > >20A output at 3500rpm, so I would assume that you could use the same > "ratios" > >and determine that on a continental for example, that is a 1.15:1, that > > >you'd have full output at 2900ish rpm? > > > >http://www.aeroelectric.com/Reference_Docs/Alternator_Data/SD8-Performa > >nce.p > >df > > The SD-20 is an L-40 with different shoes. It's limited in output > only because of the reduced speed on the vacuum pump pad. It's > performance is described on B&C's website at: > > http://bandc.biz/SD20REVC.pdf > > Bob . . . > >


    Message 42


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    Time: 07:19:59 PM PST US
    From: "Robert G. Wright" <armywrights@adelphia.net>
    Subject: An Architecture Question - Z13
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert G. Wright" <armywrights@adelphia.net> A thought I keep having during these double alternator discussions is: What's wrong with having two alternators online at the same time, with the standby set to a volt less than the main? The standby would only then support the load of the bus it's attached to if the main went offline (this assumes that a "nonessential" bus goes away automatically when the main alt fails). Rob -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Todd Richmond Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 9:09 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: An Architecture Question - Z13 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Todd Richmond" <trichmond@obermeyer.com> All, I have been reading the AeroElectric posts for several weeks now and find the forum extremely useful as I begin designing the electrical system for my RV-7A (that and re-reading the AeroElectric Connection several times). I am planning an all electric airplane based on the Grand Rapids EFIS/EIS system, Garmin 430, E-Mag / P-Mag combo and all the other little gizmos I can fit (afford). At this point, I'm basing my architecture on the Z-13 with a 60 Amp alternator and SD-20 auxiliary alternator. So my first question is this. do I need an e-bus? The only reason I can figure is that without the e-bus, the master battery contactor becomes a single point of failure. If true, could I simply wire two battery contactors in parallel and run them via a 2-10 switch? To me the advantage of this approach is that in case of an alternator failure, I can simply switch to the auxiliary alternator and systematically reduce my loads until the alternator is picking up the full load without worrying what is attached to each bus. My second question is would it make sense to wire both alternators to a DP3T switch? My thought being that this approach ensures only one alternator may be operating at a time and thus would prevent them from inadvertently fighting one another. Any input is gratefully appreciated. Todd R. Richmond RV-7A Wings <mailto:trichmond@obermeyer.com> trichmond@obermeyer.com


    Message 43


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    Time: 07:50:43 PM PST US
    From: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
    Subject: Re: AGM longevity (was: Odyssey % of charge)
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com> Bill Dube wrote: > Occasionally, you need to purposely overcharge the battery to let the > negative plate catch up with the positive plate. A couple times per > year, you bring the battery up to 14.8 volts and let the current taper > off to less than an amp. You then push in a constant current of about 4% > of the amp-hr rating of the battery for about an hour. This cleans off > the negative plate. Right. This is called an equalization charge. > High-end voltage regulators do something like this (like on boats > and motor homes). Every time you start up the engine, it charges up the > battery to normal voltage, then it gives the battery a slight overcharge > for a few minutes. Makes the big expensive AGM batteries last much longer. Hmm. The big, expensive AGM and gel-cell batteries I used on my boat came with warnings from the manufacturer to never do an equalization charge, that the normal charging regimen would ensure proper charging. So when it comes to batteries, I read and follow the manufacturer's recommendations. Good information by the way. -- Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630 +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . - Antoine de Saint-Exupery


    Message 44


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    Time: 07:50:43 PM PST US
    From: "Alan K. Adamson" <aadamson@highrf.com>
    Subject: SD-20 Alt performance chart?
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alan K. Adamson" <aadamson@highrf.com> Now, guys... It's been a long day... Guess I can't even play the Markup vs. Margin game on this one... :) OR, can you, perhaps I did the divide by .5 instead of times by 1.5... Sorry, you are right Alan - tail between legs and going back to sanding... I knew I should have even questioned 5000 rpm, let alone 7500 :) -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob McCallum Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 9:54 PM Subject: Re: Spam> RE: AeroElectric-List: SD-20 Alt performance chart? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bob McCallum" --> <robert.mccallum2@sympatico.ca> Alan 1.5 x 2500 = 3750 NOT 5000 Bob McC ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan K. Adamson" <aadamson@highrf.com> Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 8:47 PM Subject: RE: Spam> RE: AeroElectric-List: SD-20 Alt performance chart? > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alan K. Adamson" <aadamson@highrf.com> > > Thanks George, so for 2500 RPM indicated engine speed, the vacuum pump pad > would be turning at 5000 rpm correct? That makes a little more sense. > > Alan > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of George > Braly > Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 8:13 PM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Spam> RE: AeroElectric-List: SD-20 Alt performance chart? > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "George Braly" > --> <gwbraly@gami.com> > > > Six cylinder vacuum pads that are on the same drive shaft as the magnetos > turn at 1.5 x crank RPM. > > George > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Alan K. > Adamson > Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 11:31 AM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: Spam> RE: AeroElectric-List: SD-20 Alt performance chart? > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alan K. Adamson" > <aadamson@highrf.com> > > Cuz the ignorance, but what ALT rpm would I expect to see on a continental > io-550 vacuum pad, when the engine is turning 2500 RPM? > > Alan > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. > Nuckolls, III > Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 12:05 PM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: SD-20 Alt performance chart? > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > --> <nuckollsr@cox.net> > > At 10:51 AM 2/24/2006 -0500, you wrote: > > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alan K. Adamson" > ><aadamson@highrf.com> > > > >Bob, did you ever put together one of these for the SD-20? B&C specify > > >20A output at 3500rpm, so I would assume that you could use the same > "ratios" > >and determine that on a continental for example, that is a 1.15:1, that > > >you'd have full output at 2900ish rpm? > > > >http://www.aeroelectric.com/Reference_Docs/Alternator_Data/SD8-Performa > >nce.p > >df > > The SD-20 is an L-40 with different shoes. It's limited in output > only because of the reduced speed on the vacuum pump pad. It's > performance is described on B&C's website at: > > http://bandc.biz/SD20REVC.pdf > > Bob . . . > >


    Message 45


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    Time: 08:15:12 PM PST US
    From: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" <dean.psiropoulos@verizon.net>
    Subject: Transponder/EFIS Gray code
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" <dean.psiropoulos@verizon.net> Thanks for the help Brian, I think you mis-understood my question on the Gray Code connection to the transponder. You are correct that the SL70 has both Gray code and serial encoder inputs. But.....my EFIS D10 is an original production model and does NOT have an encoder serial data OUTPUT like the newer EFIS D10-A model. So I have to use the Gray code signals out of the EFIS to drive the transponder. The EFIS has "A", "B" and "C" Gray code signals (out) which correspond to the transponder Gray code inputs with one exception. The Transponder has one additional Gray code input labeled "D4" but the EFIS does NOT have a "D4" output (I assume this extra input allows the Transponder to encode and transmit higher altitudes than those with just A/B/C inputs). In any case, my question is what to do with this "D4" input at the transponder end. Is it ok to leave it unconnected (floating) or do I need to connect it to a positive voltage or...to ground? Can't find any direction in the manual so I assume leaving it float will not cause a problem but would really like to know for sure. Sorry for the initial confusion. Dean Psiropoulos RV-6A N197DM Autocad-only the Radio Stack remains ----------------original message------------------------- >From: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com> >Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Transponder/ RS-232 >I don't remember if the SL-70 accepts serial data in instead of gray code. >I *think* it does but I am not sure. If it does not you will need a serial->to-grey-code converter to get the data from the Dynon to the SL-70....


    Message 46


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    Time: 08:32:15 PM PST US
    From: BobsV35B@aol.com
    Subject: Re: SD-20 Alt performance chart?
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com Good Evening Alan, I had my head up and locked when I responded. The regular alternator drive on most 520 or 550 Continentals spins the alternator at three times crankshaft speed. That is what I had in mind. The accessory drive that often runs the vacuum pump will spin at one and a half times crankshaft speed on all six cylinder Continentals. Sorry, I goofed! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8503 In a message dated 2/24/2006 6:58:53 P.M. Central Standard Time, aadamson@highrf.com writes: --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alan K. Adamson" <aadamson@highrf.com> Bob, does that make sense. 7500 would give almost 40 amps out of the SD-20, is a continental really 3:1 on the vacuum pad? Engine rpm 2500, vacuum pad 7500? Alan


    Message 47


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    Time: 08:45:07 PM PST US
    From: Robert Sultzbach <endspeed@yahoo.com>
    Subject: An Architecture Question - Z13
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Robert Sultzbach <endspeed@yahoo.com> Todd, In regards to the e-bus question, it is not just to protect against a contactor failure. Let me illustrate this with a real live incident that happened to a roommate of mine. Picture being IFR in solid clag when you smell smoke and see thick smoke instantly start billowing from under the bottom of your instrument panel. A quick flip to off with the master switch makes the smoke start to lessen. Now, you have no radios working though your radio stack is probably o.k. Your electrical system is now caput. Nada, zilch. Now remember you are in the clag. What will you do? At any rate, with the e-bus, you turn off the master and then energize the e-bus to maintain whatever you have determined is required for safety of flight in your flight regime. If it is IFR I would have one navcom with an ils hopefully still available. You get the gist and this really did happen. The guy did get the rental aircraft down safely but he was a real solid CFI II MEI and you name it he had it for a rating. More importantly he was proficient. I prefer the e-bus method to avoid this superior display of airmanship. Take care. Bob Sultzbach > I have been reading the AeroElectric posts for > several weeks now and find > the forum extremely useful as I begin designing the > electrical system for my > RV-7A (that and re-reading the AeroElectric > Connection several times). I am > planning an all electric airplane based on the Grand > Rapids EFIS/EIS system, > Garmin 430, E-Mag / P-Mag combo and all the other > little gizmos I can fit > (afford). At this point, I'm basing my architecture > on the Z-13 with a 60 > Amp alternator and SD-20 auxiliary alternator. > > > > So my first question is this. do I need an e-bus? > The only reason I can > figure is that without the e-bus, the master battery > contactor becomes a > single point of failure. If true, could I simply > wire two battery > contactors in parallel and run them via a 2-10 > switch? To me the advantage > of this approach is that in case of an alternator > failure, I can simply > switch to the auxiliary alternator and > systematically reduce my loads until > the alternator is picking up the full load without > worrying what is attached > to each bus. > > > > My second question is would it make sense to wire > both alternators to a DP3T > switch? My thought being that this approach ensures > only one alternator may > be operating at a time and thus would prevent them > from inadvertently > fighting one another. > > > > Any input is gratefully appreciated. > > > > Todd R. Richmond > > RV-7A Wings > > <mailto:trichmond@obermeyer.com> > trichmond@obermeyer.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > > Admin. > > > > > > > > > > >


    Message 48


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    Time: 08:45:25 PM PST US
    From: "Malcolm Thomson" <mthomson@showmeproductions.com>
    Subject: Transponder/EFIS Gray code
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Malcolm Thomson" <mthomson@showmeproductions.com> >From my experience with other EFIS and encoder systems, just leave unconnected. Your assumption is correct and it is used only for higher altitudes. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DEAN PSIROPOULOS Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 9:13 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Transponder/EFIS Gray code --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" --> <dean.psiropoulos@verizon.net> Thanks for the help Brian, I think you mis-understood my question on the Gray Code connection to the transponder. You are correct that the SL70 has both Gray code and serial encoder inputs. But.....my EFIS D10 is an original production model and does NOT have an encoder serial data OUTPUT like the newer EFIS D10-A model. So I have to use the Gray code signals out of the EFIS to drive the transponder. The EFIS has "A", "B" and "C" Gray code signals (out) which correspond to the transponder Gray code inputs with one exception. The Transponder has one additional Gray code input labeled "D4" but the EFIS does NOT have a "D4" output (I assume this extra input allows the Transponder to encode and transmit higher altitudes than those with just A/B/C inputs). In any case, my question is what to do with this "D4" input at the transponder end. Is it ok to leave it unconnected (floating) or do I need to connect it to a positive voltage or...to ground? Can't find any direction in the manual so I assume leaving it float will not cause a problem but would really like to know for sure. Sorry for the initial confusion. Dean Psiropoulos RV-6A N197DM Autocad-only the Radio Stack remains ----------------original message------------------------- >From: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com> >Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Transponder/ RS-232 >I don't remember if the SL-70 accepts serial data in instead of gray >code. I *think* it does but I am not sure. If it does not you will need >a serial->to-grey-code converter to get the data from the Dynon to the SL-70.... -- --


    Message 49


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    Time: 08:47:27 PM PST US
    From: "Alan K. Adamson" <aadamson@highrf.com>
    Subject: SD-20 Alt performance chart?
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alan K. Adamson" <aadamson@highrf.com> It's ok, I did too.... :)... I think we have it straight now tho... Nite all, Alan -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B@aol.com Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 11:31 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: SD-20 Alt performance chart? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com Good Evening Alan, I had my head up and locked when I responded. The regular alternator drive on most 520 or 550 Continentals spins the alternator at three times crankshaft speed. That is what I had in mind. The accessory drive that often runs the vacuum pump will spin at one and a half times crankshaft speed on all six cylinder Continentals. Sorry, I goofed! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8503 In a message dated 2/24/2006 6:58:53 P.M. Central Standard Time, aadamson@highrf.com writes: --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alan K. Adamson" <aadamson@highrf.com> Bob, does that make sense. 7500 would give almost 40 amps out of the SD-20, is a continental really 3:1 on the vacuum pad? Engine rpm 2500, vacuum pad 7500? Alan


    Message 50


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    Time: 11:12:20 PM PST US
    From: sarg314 <sarg314@comcast.net>
    Subject: LED position lights + strobe
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: sarg314 <sarg314@comcast.net> Some months ago I saw a small outfit selling small LED position lights which also accomodated a strobe light and would fit in the van's recessed (enclosed) wingtips. I thought I saved a reference to it, but can't find it. Does this ring a bell with any one? -- Tom Sargent engine




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