Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:19 AM - Update: Strange alternator behavior at Startup (Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta))
2. 10:31 AM - Re: Mic and Headset Jack Installation (correction) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
3. 10:31 AM - Re: Update: Strange alternator behavior at Startup (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
4. 10:31 AM - Static Dischargers (steveadams)
5. 10:31 AM - Re: Update: Strange alternator behavior at Startup (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 11:03 AM - Soldering question--What am I doing wrong? (Richard Scott)
7. 11:47 AM - (mchristian@canetics.com)
8. 12:27 PM - Re: Update: Strange alternator behavior at Startup (Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta))
9. 12:38 PM - Re: Soldering question--What am I doing wrong? (Dave Morris \)
10. 12:56 PM - (Glaeser, Dennis A)
11. 12:59 PM - Re: Soldering question--What am I doing wrong? (Peter Mather)
12. 01:09 PM - Re: Update: Strange alternator behavior at Startup (Matt Prather)
13. 01:18 PM - d-sub panel connector source (sportav8r@aol.com)
14. 01:40 PM - Re: Update: Strange alternator behavior at Startup (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
15. 02:48 PM - Re: Static Dischargers (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
16. 02:50 PM - Re: Update: Strange alternator behavior at Startup (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
17. 02:57 PM - Re: Soldering question--What am I doing wrong? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
18. 04:32 PM - Re: Static Dischargers (Ron Shannon)
19. 05:02 PM - Re: LED position lights + strobe (Bill Dube)
20. 05:08 PM - Re: Soldering question--What am I doing wrong? (Bill Dube)
21. 05:14 PM - Re: AGM longevity (was: Odyssey % of charge) (Bill Dube)
22. 05:18 PM - Lr-3 question Z diagram question (rlnelson5)
23. 05:18 PM - Re: AGM longevity (was: Odyssey % of charge) (Bill Dube)
24. 05:19 PM - Re: Update: Strange alternator behavior at Startup (Brian Lloyd)
25. 05:27 PM - Re: Static Dischargers (Brian Lloyd)
26. 05:41 PM - Re: Soldering question--What am I doing wrong? (Charlie England)
27. 05:54 PM - Re: AGM longevity (was: Odyssey % of charge) (Bill Dube)
28. 06:14 PM - Re: AGM longevity (was: Odyssey % of charge) (D Wysong)
29. 06:24 PM - (mchristian@canetics.com)
30. 06:24 PM - (mchristian@canetics.com)
31. 07:34 PM - Re: Soldering question--What am I doing wrong? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
32. 07:54 PM - Re: Strange alternator behavior at Startup (Bob N) ()
33. 08:12 PM - Re: Static Dischargers (David Carter)
34. 08:27 PM - Re: Static Dischargers (Bruce Gray)
35. 11:06 PM - High Current Diodes (Scott)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Update: Strange alternator behavior at Startup |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" <mstewart@iss.net>
Update:
Was up north this weekend and was able to do a good test in the cold.
Temp was 10F and I cranked her up.
Set immediate idle at 800rpm. No charge. Sat ther for 10 seconds or so.
Went to 1100rpm for about 5 seconds. And Wallah, charging.
Back to 700rpm for 10 seconds. Still Charging.
Down to 350rpm for 10 seconds and still charging.
So it would seem that it needs that initial rpm to get the juices
flowing in the cold.
I can live with that.
Thanks to whom ever it was that suggested an initial burst of RPM to get
her going. Worked
Best,
Mike
Do not archive
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Mic and Headset Jack Installation (correction) |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
(correction)
At 04:02 PM 2/26/2006 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: SMITHBKN@aol.com
>
>Group,
>
>I've read the AeroElectric connection, searched the archives, etc. but can't
>develop an answer to the following question: when I went to install my
>jacks I
>found that I could either drill a ~3/8" hole that would allow the threaded
>post of the jack to pass through, or b) drill a slightly larger hole that
>would
>allow the threaded post PLUS the small shoulder to pass through.
>
>I purchased some of the isolation washers from B&C and they slip easily over
>the threaded post of the jack but won't go down over the shoulder at the base
>of the post.
That isn't what they're supposed to do.
>If I use the ~3/8" hole it appears the threaded portion of the jack could
>contact the panel as it passes through it, even with use of the isolation
>washers. So I guess I'm not sure what the isolation washers are doing.
Drill a 1/2" hole. Put the extruded washer on the jack first, extrusion
facing up. Insert jack in hole from behind and place flat insulating
washer on over the jack's barrel followed by the flat metal washer and
finally the NUT.
The insulating washers will sandwich the panel material while the
extrusion keeps the jack centered in the hole and isolated from
the panel.
Bob . . .
Message 3
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| Subject: | Update: Strange alternator behavior at Startup |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Your welcome...Exept I have to get to 2000RPM to get mine going...then
again my engine tops out at 5500RPM...:)
Frank
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 4:09 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Update: Strange alternator behavior at
Startup
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS
--> Atlanta)" <mstewart@iss.net>
Update:
Was up north this weekend and was able to do a good test in the cold.
Temp was 10F and I cranked her up.
Set immediate idle at 800rpm. No charge. Sat ther for 10 seconds or so.
Went to 1100rpm for about 5 seconds. And Wallah, charging.
Back to 700rpm for 10 seconds. Still Charging.
Down to 350rpm for 10 seconds and still charging.
So it would seem that it needs that initial rpm to get the juices
flowing in the cold.
I can live with that.
Thanks to whom ever it was that suggested an initial burst of RPM to get
her going. Worked Best, Mike Do not archive
Message 4
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| Subject: | Static Dischargers |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "steveadams" <dr_steve_adams@yahoo.com>
Hopefully some of you can help me out. Last week I finally got to fly in some actual
IMC in my plane (total of 4 hours actual). After about 15 minutes in the
clouds, my radio transmissions became more and more filled with static. Still
understandable, but not very clear. No static when just listenning to controllers
or talking without transmitting. Slowly cleared up after exiting clouds.
I think this is a static build up problem and wondered what others thought. My
airplane is an CH640 and I have braided grounding straps across rudder and horizontal
tail hinges. They didn't specify static wicks in the design. I know that
static dischargers should be out and back as far as possible, but otherwise
am not sure about placement and how many I may need. Is there any general advise
concerning placement and number, or is it basically a trial and error process
to see what works?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=17053#17053
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Update: Strange alternator behavior at Startup |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
Startup
At 07:08 AM 2/27/2006 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)"
><mstewart@iss.net>
>
>Update:
>Was up north this weekend and was able to do a good test in the cold.
>Temp was 10F and I cranked her up.
>Set immediate idle at 800rpm. No charge. Sat ther for 10 seconds or so.
>Went to 1100rpm for about 5 seconds. And Wallah, charging.
>Back to 700rpm for 10 seconds. Still Charging.
>Down to 350rpm for 10 seconds and still charging.
This MAY be an on-purpose feature built into your
alternator. My little romp through the data sheet on the
MC33092A regulator chip offered some insights into
the thinking of at least these chip designers. Don't
know that the MC33092A found its way into your alternator
but it's a sure bet that any designer of a new chip who
is worth his salt has studied the market. The time delay
function offered in the MC33092A combined with the low/high
RPM transition switch may well have been included in your
alternator.
Don't jerk it out yet. It just might be performing
exactly as the designers intended.
Bob . . .
Message 6
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| Subject: | Soldering question--What am I doing wrong? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Richard Scott <rscott@cascadeaccess.com>
I'm building the Creative Air LED nav light kits, working on the LED's.
So here's what I am doing.
First I clean up the boards and LED leads with alcohol.
Put them in the boards & bend the wires.
Tin the iron. It's a 15 watt iron.
Put the iron on the connection, then apply the solder. Bill says the LED's
are heat sensitive and to only hold the iron on them a couple seconds.
Half the time the solder doesn't penetrate the board, so I only have a cone
of solder on the lead on one side of the board, the side I am soldering on.
To try to fix it, I try to solder it again.
If that doesn't work (it rarely does), I remove most of the solder using
the iron and a clean cotton swab to absorb the solder & try again. Rarely
works.
Some of these I try a dozen times & still no joy.
How can I get a good soldered joint with a cone of solder on both sides of
the board? I have been told that that's what I need for a good
joint. Maybe that guy was wrong?
Richard Scott
RV-9A
Message 7
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: mchristian@canetics.com
I used the Nova EPSX - 402 supply for something like $80. It is fully potted for
"extreme" conditions and has two strobe outlets, 3.75 amps draw and 12 diffrerent
selectable flash patterns in a box 4.7" X 4.4" X 1.7" to feed two wingtip
strobes ($18 each). It works great.
For position lights, I used three luxeon stars - one red one green, and you guessed it, one white. They are only $6.00 each. I put them in series with a calculated power resistor and they are so bright it is hard to look at. Total draw for position lights is one amp or less. I thermally bonded them to little thin sheetmetal brackets and mounted them under some Kutzleman clear plastic domes with the strobe heads. Since then, Kutzleman has come out with their streamline combo (www.kestrobes.com) essentially doing the same thing for $94 that I made for about $45 each.
Total cost of strobe and position light system is less than $180.
Mike
Message 8
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| Subject: | Update: Strange alternator behavior at Startup |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" <mstewart@iss.net>
Just as a reminder,
This behavior does not exist when OAT is above 40F OR is it is an
already warm engine.
On that same cold day Saturday, I started the warm engine at 400rpm and
it was charging immediately. There was no need to raise the rpm. Its
definitely temperature related.
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 10:44 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Update: Strange alternator behavior at
Startup
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<nuckollsr@cox.net> Startup
At 07:08 AM 2/27/2006 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS
Atlanta)"
><mstewart@iss.net>
>
>Update:
>Was up north this weekend and was able to do a good test in the cold.
>Temp was 10F and I cranked her up.
>Set immediate idle at 800rpm. No charge. Sat ther for 10 seconds or so.
>Went to 1100rpm for about 5 seconds. And Wallah, charging.
>Back to 700rpm for 10 seconds. Still Charging.
>Down to 350rpm for 10 seconds and still charging.
This MAY be an on-purpose feature built into your
alternator. My little romp through the data sheet on the
MC33092A regulator chip offered some insights into
the thinking of at least these chip designers. Don't
know that the MC33092A found its way into your alternator
but it's a sure bet that any designer of a new chip who
is worth his salt has studied the market. The time delay
function offered in the MC33092A combined with the low/high
RPM transition switch may well have been included in your
alternator.
Don't jerk it out yet. It just might be performing
exactly as the designers intended.
Bob . . .
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Soldering question--What am I doing wrong? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" <BigD@DaveMorris.com>
wrong?
As long as you have a good solder joint on the soldered side of the board,
screw the other side.
Sorry, I should re-word that. It has nothing to do with bolts. "Ignore
the other side". There.
Dave Morris
At 12:54 PM 2/27/2006, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Richard Scott
><rscott@cascadeaccess.com>
>
>I'm building the Creative Air LED nav light kits, working on the LED's.
>
>So here's what I am doing.
>
>First I clean up the boards and LED leads with alcohol.
>
>Put them in the boards & bend the wires.
>
>Tin the iron. It's a 15 watt iron.
>
>Put the iron on the connection, then apply the solder. Bill says the LED's
>are heat sensitive and to only hold the iron on them a couple seconds.
>
>Half the time the solder doesn't penetrate the board, so I only have a cone
>of solder on the lead on one side of the board, the side I am soldering on.
>
>To try to fix it, I try to solder it again.
>
>If that doesn't work (it rarely does), I remove most of the solder using
>the iron and a clean cotton swab to absorb the solder & try again. Rarely
>works.
>
>Some of these I try a dozen times & still no joy.
>
>How can I get a good soldered joint with a cone of solder on both sides of
>the board? I have been told that that's what I need for a good
>joint. Maybe that guy was wrong?
>
>Richard Scott
>RV-9A
>
>
Message 10
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Glaeser, Dennis A" <dennis.glaeser@eds.com>
Richard,
I built my CreativeAir lights last month. I think a 15 watt iron may be
a bit light. I used a 40 watt and had no problems - solder flowed
through the board just fine. I suspect that your iron doesn't have the
energy to heat the joint properly without excessive dwell time.
Dennis Glaeser
RV-7A
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Richard Scott
I'm building the Creative Air LED nav light kits, working on the LED's.
So here's what I am doing. First I clean up the boards and LED leads
with alcohol. Put them in the boards & bend the wires. Tin the iron.
It's a 15 watt iron. Put the iron on the connection, then apply the
solder. Bill says the LED's are heat sensitive and to only hold the iron
on them a couple seconds. Half the time the solder doesn't penetrate the
board, so I only have a cone of solder on the lead on one side of the
board, the side I am soldering on. To try to fix it, I try to solder it
again. If that doesn't work (it rarely does), I remove most of the
solder using the iron and a clean cotton swab to absorb the solder & try
again. Rarely works. Some of these I try a dozen times & still no joy.
How can I get a good soldered joint with a cone of solder on both sides
of the board? I have been told that that's what I need for a good joint.
Maybe that guy was wrong? Richard Scott RV-9A
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Soldering question--What am I doing wrong? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Peter Mather" <peter@mather.com>
Richard
It depends on whether the board has plate-through holes - if there is track
on top of the board there should be but not always. If it has solder will
flow easily through unless the board is faulty, i.e some of the
plate-through is missing - not uncommon. If it is not plate through and
there is track on both sides then you need to solder both sides separately,
do not try and do it from one side. Otherwise just solder the bottom - one
little cone is fine.
Hope this helps
Best regards
Peter
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Scott" <rscott@cascadeaccess.com>
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 6:54 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Soldering question--What am I doing wrong?
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Richard Scott
> <rscott@cascadeaccess.com>
>
> I'm building the Creative Air LED nav light kits, working on the LED's.
>
> So here's what I am doing.
>
> First I clean up the boards and LED leads with alcohol.
>
> Put them in the boards & bend the wires.
>
> Tin the iron. It's a 15 watt iron.
>
> Put the iron on the connection, then apply the solder. Bill says the
> LED's
> are heat sensitive and to only hold the iron on them a couple seconds.
>
> Half the time the solder doesn't penetrate the board, so I only have a
> cone
> of solder on the lead on one side of the board, the side I am soldering
> on.
>
> To try to fix it, I try to solder it again.
>
> If that doesn't work (it rarely does), I remove most of the solder using
> the iron and a clean cotton swab to absorb the solder & try again. Rarely
> works.
>
> Some of these I try a dozen times & still no joy.
>
> How can I get a good soldered joint with a cone of solder on both sides of
> the board? I have been told that that's what I need for a good
> joint. Maybe that guy was wrong?
>
> Richard Scott
> RV-9A
>
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Update: Strange alternator behavior at Startup |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" <mprather@spro.net>
Hey everybody (especially Bob),
I've been sitting around thinking about how to make circuits more
complicated than they need to be (grin)... Here's an idea for turning off
an IR alternator with the end goal of not causing damage due to load dump.
It definitely adds parts count, and doesn't address over voltage nuisance
trips. The idea depends on the alternator using the sense lead as a
reference voltage input for the regulator. One of the schematics that I
looked at for an IR chip supported such behavior...
So, here's the idea. Actuating the 'off' position of the alternator
switch would actually connect a pumped ic regulator (LM1577 or similar)
output to the sense lead of the IR alternator at a voltage higher than
alternator output voltage. Say bump it up by 2Volts or so. This would
signal to the IR that the alternator output current needs to be reduced in
order to return to regulated voltage (in effect re-regulating, or fooling
the IR). After 1 sec or so, the alternator disconnect relay is then
opened, safely disconnecting the unit from the bus - no load-dump.
Turning the alternator switch back 'on' boots the circuit, closes the
alternator disconnect relay, and disconnects the pump regulator from the
sense lead circuit.
I can work up a schematic if this sounds interesting..
Matt-
Message 13
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| Subject: | d-sub panel connector source |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com
remind me where I can get a panel mount d-sub connector for laptop interconnectivity
with the Dynon and GRT EFIS I hope to install one day. I've checked websites
and list archives with no joy. I know this was recently discussed.
Thanks.
-Bill B
Message 14
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| Subject: | Update: Strange alternator behavior at Startup |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
Startup
At 02:23 PM 2/27/2006 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)"
><mstewart@iss.net>
>
>Just as a reminder,
>This behavior does not exist when OAT is above 40F OR is it is an
>already warm engine.
>
>On that same cold day Saturday, I started the warm engine at 400rpm and
>it was charging immediately. There was no need to raise the rpm. Its
>definitely temperature related.
Aha! Great data point. If a regulator designer was trying
to be really clever, the delayed turn on would be not only
related to RPM (stumbling engine) but temperature too (cold
weather is the hardest time to start).
Bob . . .
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Static Dischargers |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 08:10 AM 2/27/2006 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "steveadams"
><dr_steve_adams@yahoo.com>
>
>Hopefully some of you can help me out. Last week I finally got to fly in
>some actual IMC in my plane (total of 4 hours actual). After about 15
>minutes in the clouds, my radio transmissions became more and more filled
>with static. Still understandable, but not very clear. No static when just
>listenning to controllers or talking without transmitting. Slowly cleared
>up after exiting clouds. I think this is a static build up problem and
>wondered what others thought. My airplane is an CH640 and I have braided
>grounding straps across rudder and horizontal tail hinges. They didn't
>specify static wicks in the design. I know that static dischargers should
>be out and back as far as possible, but otherwise am not sure about
>placement and how many I may need. Is there any general advise concerning
>placement and number, or is it basically a trial and error process to see
>what works?
Pretty much. P-static mitigation is a combination of science and
art . . . but without the 200Kv hot spot chaser wand we use at
RAC, a bit of luck doesn't hurt.
Fortunately your airplane is slow and your time in the clouds
probably limited. If you query the usual suspects for aircraft
quality static wicks, you'll find listing like:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/staticwick.php
http://www.texair.com/aircraftparts/Dayton-Granger.asp
. . . and occasionally you might even find them on Ebay. See
item 4612427645
You can try three minimum. One on trailing edge of each
aileron and one on the rudder. It's a cut-n-try sort of
thing without a purposeful testing facility but you
have nothing to loose and an experimental airplane to
try things on.
Here's an article that speaks to the science of crafting
and installing static wicks for terrestrial applications:
http://www.repeater-builder.com/pdf/staticbusterarticlecomplete.pdf
In a Google search I ran across this note. I was 3/4th through
the thing before I realized it was one I wrote some years ago:
Stat Wicks
Static wicks have nothing to do with radio quality or
reliability. EVERY time dissimilar materials slide across each
other, there is a tendency for one material with a stronger affinity
for electrons than the other to acquire a negative charge.
Common manifestations include sparks that jump between
fingertip and doorknob after walking across carpet. In the winter
especially, I have to remind myself to keep part of my body
touching the frame of my 1" vertical belt sander while sculpting a
piece of metal . . . the Van DeGraff like nature of the belt sander
will charge the ol' bod with a significant kick if I don't bleed it off
during the sanding operations.
Precipitation static is unique to airborne particles sliding
past any conductor. Radio receivers can be severely affected by
dust storms usually associated with high winds. I used to work
with an amateur radio repeater installation 1200 feet up on
KTVH-TV in Hutchinson, KS. A blowing snowstorm would
severely de-sense our receivers.
Airplanes have unique problems in that they generate their
own wind. Airplanes flying through dust, rain or snow can pick
up significant charges. When the charge reaches sufficient
magnitude, it begins to form coronas at the sharp (usually trailing
edges) of wings and flight control surfaces.
The static wick is a sharp-ended conductor (enhances
tendency for charge to concentrate and form corona) connected to
the airframe through some nominal but rather high resistance.
The idea is to put sufficient static wicks in the right places so that
they force lots of small, low current discharges to form and
dissipate the energy at much lower (read less noisy) levels than if
the wicks were not present.
The faster the airplane flies, the more likely it is to
experience the effects of p-static. Further, the finish and skin
materials have an influence on tendency to build and concentrate
static charges. These effects are present and potentially
troublesome irrespective of the vintage of radios carried aboard
the airplane.
VHF radios are less susceptible than HF or ADF receivers.
Grounded antennas are quieter than isolated antennas. There are
some modern digital signal processing techniques that can reduce
the audible effects of p-static but ultimately, locally generated
static noises will overwhelm a receiver looking for weaker
signals.
The number, style and placement of static wicks on our
bizjets is as much an art as a science. We spent a great deal of
$time$ selecting the right products and installations. Further,
there's a comprehensive incoming inspection of static wicks . . .
seems that a performance of a static wick is very sensitive to
production variability.
If your airplane suffers from the effects of p-static, it may
take a lot of effort over a long period of time to deduce the
optimum solution
I might add to this that a static wick is not
a simple sharp-tipped conductor tacked to the trailing
edge of a wing. It has a high resistance . . on the
order of tens of megohms. Not easy to build. This
long, linear resistance element is necessary to keep
the wick from becoming an efficient concentrator
and radiator of noise at it's 1/4 wave resonance
frequency. It's also necessary to mitigate the
ability of the discharge at the tip to generate
noise.
Your best source for "real" wicks is probably Ebay.
They'll come already built . . . but with no guarantees.
Bob . . .
Message 16
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| Subject: | Update: Strange alternator behavior at Startup |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
Startup
At 01:46 PM 2/27/2006 -0700, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" <mprather@spro.net>
>
>Hey everybody (especially Bob),
>
>I've been sitting around thinking about how to make circuits more
>complicated than they need to be (grin)... Here's an idea for turning off
>an IR alternator with the end goal of not causing damage due to load dump.
> It definitely adds parts count, and doesn't address over voltage nuisance
>trips. The idea depends on the alternator using the sense lead as a
>reference voltage input for the regulator. One of the schematics that I
>looked at for an IR chip supported such behavior...
>
>So, here's the idea. Actuating the 'off' position of the alternator
>switch would actually connect a pumped ic regulator (LM1577 or similar)
>output to the sense lead of the IR alternator at a voltage higher than
>alternator output voltage. Say bump it up by 2Volts or so. This would
>signal to the IR that the alternator output current needs to be reduced in
>order to return to regulated voltage (in effect re-regulating, or fooling
>the IR). After 1 sec or so, the alternator disconnect relay is then
>opened, safely disconnecting the unit from the bus - no load-dump.
>Turning the alternator switch back 'on' boots the circuit, closes the
>alternator disconnect relay, and disconnects the pump regulator from the
>sense lead circuit.
>
>I can work up a schematic if this sounds interesting..
Your solution pre-supposes that we have access to an
internal sense lead and that the builder is willing/
able to add that lead at installation. Your premise is
sound. Anything you can do to fool a normally working
regulator into an orderly shut down would do the trick.
The approach I have in mind requires no modifications
to an alternator . . . it would even work with the so-called
one-wire alternators that don't have a control-wire.
Bob . . .
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Soldering question--What am I doing wrong? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
wrong?
At 10:54 AM 2/27/2006 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Richard Scott
><rscott@cascadeaccess.com>
>
>I'm building the Creative Air LED nav light kits, working on the LED's.
>
>So here's what I am doing.
>
>First I clean up the boards and LED leads with alcohol.
>
>Put them in the boards & bend the wires.
>
>Tin the iron. It's a 15 watt iron.
>
>Put the iron on the connection, then apply the solder. Bill says the LED's
>are heat sensitive and to only hold the iron on them a couple seconds.
>
>Half the time the solder doesn't penetrate the board, so I only have a cone
>of solder on the lead on one side of the board, the side I am soldering on.
>
>To try to fix it, I try to solder it again.
>
>If that doesn't work (it rarely does), I remove most of the solder using
>the iron and a clean cotton swab to absorb the solder & try again. Rarely
>works.
>
>Some of these I try a dozen times & still no joy.
>
>How can I get a good soldered joint with a cone of solder on both sides of
>the board? I have been told that that's what I need for a good
>joint. Maybe that guy was wrong?
Sounds like not enough heat. ALL semiconductors are "sensitive" to
heat but they're all routinely installed by soldering. If you're
not getting the flow you want, the tool is too cold. I presume too
that you're using 63/37 or 64/40 solder with a good pedigree.
All of our tips here run 700F on 30W irons with a great deal of
ability to cook things if you are sloppy and/or really slow. But
I don't know of any components that are not designed to withstand
ordinary (4-5 seconds) of sufficient heat to get flow in their installation
joints.
Forget the wattage. Get a temperature controlled iron of any wattage
30 or more. Set for no less than 600F and use good solder. Then apply
heat as necessary to get the flow you're looking for. Wattage is an
exceedingly poor way to rate a soldering iron's ability. Our 30 Watt
irons (Metcal) will solder terminals to 4AWG fat wire and the same
iron installs 32 leg IC's with .025" pitch between the pins.
Bob . . .
Message 18
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|
| Subject: | Re: Static Dischargers |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ron Shannon <rshannon@cruzcom.com>
Slightly tangential, but....
Early research on P-static and how to deal with it was carried out
during WWII by a team led by Bob Buck. In a B-17, they intentionally
sought and charged (sorry about that one) into major storm clouds all
over the world -- for the benefit of science. He writes about it in
fascinating detail in "North Star Over My Shoulder", a memoir of his
extraordinary life in aviation (early biplanes to Chief Pilot for TWA
driving 747's, etc.) and a good read all around.
Ron
Message 19
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|
| Subject: | Re: LED position lights + strobe |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Bill Dube <william.p.dube@noaa.gov>
I designed these particular LED position lights and sell the kits. If
you have any questions, feel free to ask.
Mike shipper did a very nice write up when he built a pair of my lights.
Mike is a bit more of a perfectionist than most, so he put in about
double the time it takes the typical person to build the kit. Taking
these terrific pictures and doing this write-up also probably counted in
the time. (Most folks take about 4 hours to build the kit. I do them in
less than an hour, but I have a little bit of practice at this point.)
http://www.my9a.com/lights.asp
>>Caution - Blatant self promotion about to occur<<<
These LED position light kits cost less than $150 per pair. This is
cheaper than the standard incandescent lights.
Theses lights are the only ones on the market that are available as a
kit. (Most folks that are building a kit airplane seem to like building
kit position lights.)
The lights put out more light than required by the FAA in all
directions. I even tell you how to measure the light output yourself in
the instructions.
The LEDs will outlast the airplane.
I took a "belt and suspenders" approach in the design. They have 23
separate current regulated circuits. You can drill a few holes in each
light and they won't go dark. They stay the same brightness from 10
volts up to 30 volts input.
They only draw half an amp for the pair of lights. They are much,
much lighter than incandescent position lights.
Bill Dube' <LED@Killacycle.com>
Eric Newton wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric Newton" <enewton57@cableone.net>
>
>Could be this one:
>http://www.creativair.com/cva/product_info.php?cPath=3D21&products_id=3D44
>
>Eric
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Soldering question--What am I doing wrong? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Bill Dube <william.p.dube@noaa.gov>
You are doing nothing wrong.
If the solder has wet the wire and wet the pad on one side, that is
perfect. The holes are plated through so you only need to make a solder
connection to the pad on one side.
It's is good that you read the instructions about overheating the
LEDs. :
)
Be sure to put on sunglasses before you apply power to the lights.
Otherwise, you will see spots for awhile.
If you have the combo lights, don't forget to install the jumper
wire for 12 volts (or the resistor for 24 volts.)
Bill Dube'
Peter Mather wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Peter Mather" <peter@mather.com>
>
>Richard
>
>It depends on whether the board has plate-through holes - if there is track
>on top of the board there should be but not always. If it has solder will
>flow easily through unless the board is faulty, i.e some of the
>plate-through is missing - not uncommon. If it is not plate through and
>there is track on both sides then you need to solder both sides separately,
>do not try and do it from one side. Otherwise just solder the bottom - one
>little cone is fine.
>
>Hope this helps
>
>Best regards
>
>Peter
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Richard Scott" <rscott@cascadeaccess.com>
>To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
>Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 6:54 PM
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Soldering question--What am I doing wrong?
>
>
>
>
>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Richard Scott
>><rscott@cascadeaccess.com>
>>
>>I'm building the Creative Air LED nav light kits, working on the LED's.
>>
>>So here's what I am doing.
>>
>>First I clean up the boards and LED leads with alcohol.
>>
>>Put them in the boards & bend the wires.
>>
>>Tin the iron. It's a 15 watt iron.
>>
>>Put the iron on the connection, then apply the solder. Bill says the
>>LED's
>>are heat sensitive and to only hold the iron on them a couple seconds.
>>
>>Half the time the solder doesn't penetrate the board, so I only have a
>>cone
>>of solder on the lead on one side of the board, the side I am soldering
>>on.
>>
>>To try to fix it, I try to solder it again.
>>
>>If that doesn't work (it rarely does), I remove most of the solder using
>>the iron and a clean cotton swab to absorb the solder & try again. Rarely
>>works.
>>
>>Some of these I try a dozen times & still no joy.
>>
>>How can I get a good soldered joint with a cone of solder on both sides of
>>the board? I have been told that that's what I need for a good
>>joint. Maybe that guy was wrong?
>>
>>Richard Scott
>>RV-9A
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: AGM longevity (was: Odyssey % of charge) |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Bill Dube <william.p.dube@noaa.gov>
I know a little bit about batteries. Check out my other hobby.
<http://www.KillaCycle.com>
and my daily driver <http://www.haritech.com/wabbit.html>
Bill Dube'
Brian Lloyd wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
>
>Bill Dube wrote:
>
>
>
>> Occasionally, you need to purposely overcharge the battery to let the
>>negative plate catch up with the positive plate. A couple times per
>>year, you bring the battery up to 14.8 volts and let the current taper
>>off to less than an amp. You then push in a constant current of about 4%
>>of the amp-hr rating of the battery for about an hour. This cleans off
>>the negative plate.
>>
>>
>
>Right. This is called an equalization charge.
>
>
>
>> High-end voltage regulators do something like this (like on boats
>>and motor homes). Every time you start up the engine, it charges up the
>>battery to normal voltage, then it gives the battery a slight overcharge
>>for a few minutes. Makes the big expensive AGM batteries last much longer.
>>
>>
>
>Hmm. The big, expensive AGM and gel-cell batteries I used on my boat
>came with warnings from the manufacturer to never do an equalization
>charge, that the normal charging regimen would ensure proper charging.
>
>So when it comes to batteries, I read and follow the manufacturer's
>recommendations.
>
>Good information by the way.
>
>
>
Message 22
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|
| Subject: | Lr-3 question Z diagram question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "rlnelson5" <rlnelson-5@peoplepc.com>
Hello I am installing a Lr-3c regulator from B+c. I was wondering if anybody
had made up a temp sensor for this regulator without buying the 85 dollar one
from B+C.
I have seen several items on this list about Shotsky diodes. The Digikey book
has 4 pages of them . Would they be better to use then the regular 4 terminal
diode that is listed in the Z diagrams for the endurance bus? If so which one
to get? Thanks
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=18244#18244
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: AGM longevity (was: Odyssey % of charge) |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Bill Dube <william.p.dube@noaa.gov>
You are correct. They should not be continuously float charged for
longest life.
AGMs typically have very small self-discharge. If your airplane doesn't
have some continuous drain (like the clock or avionics memory) then the
AGM should stay quite well charged for 6 months or so. If you put on the
float (or pulse) charger for a couple of days every few months, that
should keep up the AGM just fine.
Bill Dube'
Ken wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
>
>This is one I've never heard of before.
>
>The manufacturer of my wee AGM specifies a float voltage which I've been
>using. This implies that a pulse type battery maintainer might be better
>or maybe that they should not be float charged continuously while in
>storage?? These are small but somewhat pricey Dekka batteries on a Z-14
>architecture so there is no plan to periodically replace them - just
>flog flog them until noticeable starting performance suffers.
>
>thanks
>Ken
>
>
>
>> Grid corrosion occurs if you leave the battery on float for a long
>>time. The oxygen gas formed eats at the grids that support the paste.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Update: Strange alternator behavior at Startup |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Robert L. Nuckolls, III Startup wrote:
>> Set immediate idle at 800rpm. No charge. Sat ther for 10 seconds or so.
>> Went to 1100rpm for about 5 seconds. And Wallah, charging.
>> Back to 700rpm for 10 seconds. Still Charging.
>> Down to 350rpm for 10 seconds and still charging.
> ...
>
> Don't jerk it out yet. It just might be performing
> exactly as the designers intended.
This is actually normal behavior for a self-exciting alternator if you
don't hook up the ignition terminal or the idiot light. There is no
source of power to provide any field excitation so excitation comes from
the residual magnetic field in the armature. Eventually you get it
spinning fast enough that there is enough output from the stator to
begin to excite the regulator and the field. The result is that the
alternator begins to bootstrap, i.e. a little current gets to the field
which slightly increases the output which causes a little more current
to get to the field, until the alternator has enough output to fully
turn on the regulator and the field.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Static Dischargers |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
steveadams wrote:
> ...After about 15 minutes in the clouds, my radio transmissions became more and
more filled with static. Still understandable, but not very clear. No static
when just listenning to controllers or talking without transmitting.
While the fact that it happens in the cloud and clears up when you leave
the cloud certainly implies p-static, I have *never* heard of p-static
having an effect on transmission. I have been in p-static so bad (dry
snow) that not a single receiver in the aircraft worked (well, they
worked but the noise was greater than any signal). Through that my
transmissions were clear to receivers.
Is there anything else you turned on while in the clag? Pitot heat?
Another (remote) possibility is that the base of your antenna is not
bonded well and the water changed the characteristic of your ground
plane connection.
And of course it could be just a bad lobe on your antenna radiation
pattern. Did you make any turns or were you motoring straight and level?
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Soldering question--What am I doing wrong? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie England <ceengland@bellsouth.net>
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrong? wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
wrong?
>
>At 10:54 AM 2/27/2006 -0800, you wrote:
>
>
>
>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Richard Scott
>><rscott@cascadeaccess.com>
>>
>>I'm building the Creative Air LED nav light kits, working on the LED's.
>>
>>So here's what I am doing.
>>
>>First I clean up the boards and LED leads with alcohol.
>>
>>Put them in the boards & bend the wires.
>>
>>Tin the iron. It's a 15 watt iron.
>>
>>Put the iron on the connection, then apply the solder. Bill says the LED's
>>are heat sensitive and to only hold the iron on them a couple seconds.
>>
>>Half the time the solder doesn't penetrate the board, so I only have a cone
>>of solder on the lead on one side of the board, the side I am soldering on.
>>
>>To try to fix it, I try to solder it again.
>>
>>If that doesn't work (it rarely does), I remove most of the solder using
>>the iron and a clean cotton swab to absorb the solder & try again. Rarely
>>works.
>>
>>Some of these I try a dozen times & still no joy.
>>
>>How can I get a good soldered joint with a cone of solder on both sides of
>>the board? I have been told that that's what I need for a good
>>joint. Maybe that guy was wrong?
>>
>>
>
> Sounds like not enough heat. ALL semiconductors are "sensitive" to
> heat but they're all routinely installed by soldering. If you're
> not getting the flow you want, the tool is too cold. I presume too
> that you're using 63/37 or 64/40 solder with a good pedigree.
>
> All of our tips here run 700F on 30W irons with a great deal of
> ability to cook things if you are sloppy and/or really slow. But
> I don't know of any components that are not designed to withstand
> ordinary (4-5 seconds) of sufficient heat to get flow in their installation
> joints.
>
> Forget the wattage. Get a temperature controlled iron of any wattage
> 30 or more. Set for no less than 600F and use good solder. Then apply
> heat as necessary to get the flow you're looking for. Wattage is an
> exceedingly poor way to rate a soldering iron's ability. Our 30 Watt
> irons (Metcal) will solder terminals to 4AWG fat wire and the same
> iron installs 32 leg IC's with .025" pitch between the pins.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
I hope that adding to Bob's answer isn't too presumptuous....
Using insufficient heat/power is much more likely to damage stuff than
'too much'. Reason: if the iron isn't hot enough, or is so under
powered or under massed that it can't get the joint hot quickly, heat
can flow into easily damaged components & raise their temp to damaging
levels before the joint gets hot enough to flow solder. (Same thing can
happen if the joint or iron isn't clean.)
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: AGM longevity (was: Odyssey % of charge) |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Bill Dube <william.p.dube@noaa.gov>
Here is an example of a high-end battery charger. Zivan sets these up to
giver precisely the correct charge algorithm for the specific brand and
type of battery.
http://www.zivanusa.com/BC1BatteryCharger.htm
They use this sort of high-end charger on fork lifts, golf carts,
etc where they care about battery life. Take a look at the charge curves
on some of these chargers and you will get an idea of the right way to
charge a battery.
I own a Zivan NG3 that I used for my electric car when I had Optima AGM
lead-acid batteries in it. It ran the curves that I spoke of in the
previous post. In an EV, you typically have over $1000 in batteries that
you want to last as long as possible. Thus, you buy a charger that will
run the "perfect" charge cycle. These high-wattage chargers typically
cost more than $1000, so adding the brains to do the proper charge
doesn't change the final cost of the charger very much and saves you a
bunch in batteries.
If you have an AGM that is a little tired, you can try the
overcharge that I outlined in the previous post. If it has sulfation or
a undercharged negative plates, it will perk up a bit. Crank the plane
up, let it charge normally (like on a flight) and then give it another
overcharge. It should crank even better.
If it is running out of water because your voltage regulator is set
too high, the overcharge will not help. You will not notice a difference
in cranking voltage. Thus, there is no point in doing a second go at it.
You should probably just get a new battery.
To do the overcharge, I use a bench power supply and set the voltage
and current exactly, but you won't have one probably. A good substitute
is a 15 volt, 2 or 3 amp Toshiba laptop AC adapter. You can pick one up
on Ebay for about $10.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Toshiba-Laptop-Power-Adapter-DC15V-2A_W0QQitemZ6853456587QQcategoryZ31517QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
or
http://cgi.ebay.com/Toshiba-Laptop-Power-Adapter-PA2426U-for-T-Series-NIB_W0QQitemZ6852048387QQcategoryZ31517QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
or
http://cgi.ebay.com/GENUINE-TOSHIBA-LAPTOP-AC-ADAPTER-PA2450U-POWER-CORD_W0QQitemZ6852574714QQcategoryZ116318QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Cut off the computer connector and attach a pair of clip leads. (The
shield is negative.) Disconnect one of the battery leads and connect up
the Toshiba laptop supply. Leave it on for a 3 or 4 hours. Should do the
trick. Don't leave it connected for more than a few hours or it will dry
out your battery. When the Toshiba power supply is no longer warm to the
touch, disconnect it.
Bill Dube'
Alex Peterson wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson@earthlink.net>
>
>
>
>
>> Occasionally, you need to purposely overcharge the battery
>>to let the negative plate catch up with the positive plate. A
>>couple times per year, you bring the battery up to 14.8 volts
>>and let the current taper off to less than an amp. You then
>>push in a constant current of about 4% of the amp-hr rating
>>of the battery for about an hour. This cleans off the negative plate.
>>
>>
>
>
>Bill, excellent post! What would be your recommendation for a charger to
>accomplish this periodic overcharging method for cleaning the negative
>plate? I suspect that this is what my PC680 needs after two years.
>
>Alex Peterson
>RV6-A N66AP 719 hours
>Maple Grove, MN
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: AGM longevity (was: Odyssey % of charge) |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: D Wysong <hdwysong@gmail.com>
Cool bike, Bill! I must admit that I bookmarked your web page
(alongside www.deadmike.com) to use when "she" starts telling me that
flying airplanes upside-down is too dangerous. ;-)
D
do not archive
Bill Dube wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Bill Dube <william.p.dube@noaa.gov>
>
> I know a little bit about batteries. Check out my other hobby.
> <http://www.KillaCycle.com>
> and my daily driver <http://www.haritech.com/wabbit.html>
>
> Bill Dube'
Message 29
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: mchristian@canetics.com
I used the Nova EPSX - 402 supply for something like $80. It is fully potted for
"extreme" conditions and has two strobe outlets, 3.75 amps draw and 12 diffrerent
selectable flash patterns in a box 4.7" X 4.4" X 1.7" to feed two wingtip
strobes ($18 each). It works great.
For position lights, I used three luxeon stars - one red one green, and you guessed it, one white. They are only $6.00 each. I put them in series with a calculated power resistor and they are so bright it is hard to look at. Total draw for position lights is one amp or less. I thermally bonded them to little thin sheetmetal brackets and mounted them under some Kutzleman clear plastic domes with the strobe heads. Since then, Kutzleman has come out with their streamline combo (www.kestrobes.com) essentially doing the same thing for $94 that I made for less than $40 each.
Total cost of strobe and position light system is less than $180.
Mike
reposting to get subject line to adhere...
Message 30
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: mchristian@canetics.com
I used the Nova EPSX - 402 supply for something like $80. It is fully potted for
"extreme" conditions and has two strobe outlets, 3.75 amps draw and 12 diffrerent
selectable flash patterns in a box 4.7" X 4.4" X 1.7" to feed two wingtip
strobes ($18 each). It works great.
For position lights, I used three luxeon stars - one red one green, and you guessed it, one white. They are only $6.00 each. I put them in series with a calculated power resistor and they are so bright it is hard to look at. Total draw for position lights is one amp or less. I thermally bonded them to little thin sheetmetal brackets and mounted them under some Kutzleman clear plastic domes with the strobe heads. Since then, Kutzleman has come out with their streamline combo (www.kestrobes.com) essentially doing the same thing for $94 that I made for less than $40 each.
Total cost of strobe and position light system is less than $180.
Mike
reposting to get subject line to adhere...
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Soldering question--What am I doing wrong? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
wrong?
>
>
>I hope that adding to Bob's answer isn't too presumptuous....
>
>Using insufficient heat/power is much more likely to damage stuff than
>'too much'. Reason: if the iron isn't hot enough, or is so under
>powered or under massed that it can't get the joint hot quickly, heat
>can flow into easily damaged components & raise their temp to damaging
>levels before the joint gets hot enough to flow solder. (Same thing can
>happen if the joint or iron isn't clean.)
Dead on right sir. It's sorta like having your cubmaster having
you "start off easy" with a dull knife . . . lest you hurt yerself.
Saw more folks get buggered trying to force a cut with dull
knives than those who could concentrate on doing it right
because skill and not the tool was the limiting factor.
Bob . . .
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Strange alternator behavior at Startup (Bob N) |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com>
Bob, most of what you wrote has nothing to do with the topic?
It is not a debate of IF you should use a I-VR alternator, but I will
try to address you question, fully knowing you will never be
satisfied.
>Bob N wrote
>If they have understanding to offer, the block diagrams,
>schematics, test results, etc are in order. That's what I offer and I
>expect no less.
Just call them Bob. What's the big deal.
For someone who says the want to understand you come off
as disingenuous when you dont really make and effort.
Did you even try to call Bob? I think you will find it worthwhile. I
cant guarantee they will meet a level of knowledge to satisfy
you. However you only have excuses for not calling. Do you
really want to try to understand, or do you want to posture and
make statements about schematics and repeatable test.
This is about how I-VR works for those who DO use them. Not about
Bob, what Bob does at Beechcraft, certified planes or what you feel
comfortable suggesting in your book. Those who already use an
I-VR want to know how they work; They dont need FAA or your approval
or absolute proof as you do. This is NOT about IF you should use,
only HOW they really work.
>Every simple idea I've had to offer was explained at length, often
>illustrated and in many cases based on lessons-learned from the past
>40 years of cooking (and burning a few fingers) in this particular
>kitchen.
For some reason you turn a debate about the functions of an
internal VR into something personal. Nothing personal Bob.
Bob you provide a wealth of knowledge and experience. I think
we all can say is of immense help and enjoyment to us amateur
airplane electricians. Your help to airplane builders in garages
and hangers world over is with out dispute. Even if I dont agree
with you, that does not mean I dont understand your point or
disrespect your accomplishments.
This all came about from a question about strange alternator
operation right after start up. Jon made a reply that I found was
reasonable and true. If you dont believe Jon, me, engineers who
work for a company that makes I-VRs or a technical spec
brochure from Motorola, than what else can I say to you?
I understand your position, but internal voltage regulators DO have
advanced protection, logic and control, FACT. Deal with it, or
otherwise prove they dont work that way.
Call Transpo and talk to an Engineer. No, they will not give you
the keys to the manufacturing plant, but they will be nice and talk
to you (if you are nice as I am sure you would be). Its a 800 number;
what do you have to loose. They are hard to get a hold of
sometimes, but it might be worth it. If that is not good enough,
OK. Then end of subject.
I say try to understand with any and whatever info is available.
Don't believe but dont cast dispersions. I'm guessing you are not
REALLY truly motivated for yourself and just want to cast doubt.
>I wasn't suggesting you should. It was an ILLUSTRATION of
>just how much we've come to depend on tools (and faith in the
>talent of others) that started out with high ideals but failed in the
>marketplace. All the analysis in the world does not replace the
>repeatable experiment.
>Unfortunately, there is so much faith in the up-front, computer
>aided analysis that we've totally divested ourselves of any kind
>of skunk works. At the same time, we're a bit dismayed that
>customer aircraft have become IR&D tools for fixing problems
>that analysis failed to reveal.
Again interesting but irrelevant.
I feel your lament. Not sure what it has to do with the debate. You
probably are right. America needs more scientist and engineers
researching in labs.
Bob you are skeptical and cynical, that is a great way to be. I
am also skeptical, but I pick my battles. This is not one of them.
>You seem to think I'm trying to convince you of something . . .
>or sell you something. The only reason I offer you anything is as
>a courtesy from one engineer to another . . . but gee, without all
>the alphabet soup after my name, perhaps my biggest failing is
>knowing the right kind of words to use. I'm only trying to share
>my experience and observations based on that experience. The
>only folks who's approval I MUST have are those who send me
>money and expect a fair value in return. Everything else is the
>fun of considering simple-ideas . . . . and I DO enjoy it. I'm sorry
>if it's upsetting for you.
Ha Ha, you could not upset me, I would not allow it. Further I dont
believe anything you say Bob or anyone says, with out checking it
out to my satisfaction. No offense. I have checked it out, your turn.
I agree you need high standards to give suggestions about a/c wiring.
Again, what does this have to do with I-VR functions? This is not
a debate whether we should use them, just how they work.
As far as words you use, frankly they get in the way sometimes.
There is NO doubt you are trying to share you experience and
it is helpful, but it does always directly translate into what we,
I-VR users need. In fact its mostly counter to what we need.
Also you always seem to have a chip or resentment about
college degrees. Again its NOT about you Bob, its about the
FACTS. Not sticking with the topic is distracting. We are talking
about HOW internal VRs work, that is all, not peace in the
Mid East, not Beechcraft.
>I AM distressed that you don't seem to grasp what I'm driving at
.> . . a serious failing on my part as a teacher. Hmmmm . . . did
>you buy a copy of the 'Connection from me? Do you want your
>money back?
I am sorry you are distressed, its not your fault teacher; its ok
Bob, I (we) really get it. You want unequivocal proof. I do think with
respect youre hypocritical, because you dont always require the
same level of proof consistently. For some reasons when you hear
something negative about an I-VR alternator you accept it and
NEVER question it. You require no proof or details. Why? You
loose credibility when you are not fair and consistent.
Bottom line is NOT everyone agrees with you. That is also ok, but
sadly many times you automatically assume that disagreeing with
you means the other party does not understand. I understand you
Mr. Bob N. I have run across guys like you a dozen times in my
career and appreciate your mind set and perspective, but I
respectfully dont agree and find it negative, not helpful sometimes.
Just to say prove it or info is hard to get does not make it
true or false. Someone out there has the details that you want.
You wont know unless YOU research it. I have and found
enough info to make me happy, as others have. That's all I claim.
>If that's what you did, then are you then a spokesperson for
>Transpo or have you developed an independent but supporting
>professional opinion you can share? Have you seen schematics,
>design philosophies, parts selection criteria? Would you/they
>share that with us? I get access to this stuff when I approve
>products for my boss, it's called preliminary and critical design
>reviews. But since you're going experimental, do you consider
>such tools superfluous, perhaps a waste of time? Is it no longer
>necessary that we understand how things work? Just field the
>pitch over the counter at OSH and plunk down the credit card? I
>may have to ask your forgiveness. I consider my OBAM aircraft
>customers just as deserving of the best-I-know-how-to-do as my
>TC aircraft customers.
Lots of words and smoke but no meat. WHAT are you talking
about? Spokesperson? OBAM? the best-I-know-how-to-do?
Great, but so what?
Bob dont be ridiculous; I am not their spokesman, and no
they are not going to hand you detailed info. SO WHAT? They
will confirm the functions and how they work. That is what
started this thread. I talk to them a few times and found them to
be friendly, knowledgeably and helpful. They have a true desire to
understand the problems and offered me their assistant in doing
detailed failure analysis of failed components I might have. I am
sure if you call, are nice and REALLY want to learn from them
(not teach them), they will help you also. Your I DEMAND PROOF
attitude (analysis, test reports, detailed schematics), I am
guessing will not go over big or impress them.
Its irrelevant what you do at work. We are talking about small
alternators for small planes that dont need certification approval.
Since there are many many thousands of I-VR's flying
successfully in experimental planes, the experiment has been
repeated so many times in so many builders planes, its not an
experiment anymore.
Bob you gladly expressed your opinion or allowed others to
express their opinions as fact with out ANY proof. Now when Jon
or I say I-VR have soft start or thermal protection you demand
proof? You make me laugh. That is hypocritical. I guess you cant
prove a negative. Prove I-VR are subject to massive OV. I know
you cant. I want to see your repeatable test. No THEORY, FACT.
Your position is untenable. The fact is I-VR do a great job and if
installed and operated appropriately, which respectfully your
your book does not represent, than you can expect good service.
It is experimental not Beechcraft.
How many I-VR have you seen and determined it was a shorted
transistor, your leading theory. NONE. Your past reply, parts are
gone or its so damaged you cant analyze it. I call BS! Lets see
your facts. However we are digressing.
A year ago Aeroelectric list was more like pulp fiction than a clearing
house of facts, when it came to internal voltage regulated alternators.
It is much better now.
If you really care or want to understand than look into it. If you
dont and want to stay in your belief system I understand. Why
should you change. You have a way that works for you which you
feel comfortable recommending. THAT IS FINE! I get it and
respect that position, but let I-VR users learn with out impediment.
>You've tossed in tons of cabbages and tomatoes which I've
>attempted to field with thoughtful, illustrative answers. May I
>suggest this friendly competition. Let the List vote on the work
>product. Looser sends the winner a copy of his favorite book.
More analogies Bob. Oh Boy, You are so funny. What tons of
cabbages and tomatoes are you talking about? Is that an insult?
What did I say specifically that was either cabbage or tomato?
I dont care. I am just having a hard enough time getting you to
stay on the subject. You like the student asking the professor
to prove Einstein's theory of relativity and worm holes exist.
PROVE IT, you say over and over. Nothing wrong with asking
questions, but after a while its counter productive, and you
need to figure it out for yourself. By just asking questions to
cast some doubt on the topic is a waste of time. Bob, everyone
else in the class either does not care, gets it or has moved on.
You need to answer your own questions because you are the
only one you will listen to or believe. That is cool.
I am trying to stay on point and talk about a subject with out all
the flowery language and meaningless analogies.
You make me laugh Bob N. What is a *work product*?
I think the list has voted already. There are more internally
regulated alternators going into planes than B&C or otherwise.
Even Aeroelectic readers put I-VRs in, but they dont have the
heart to tell you Bob. Vans sells thousands and thousands of the
I-VR Nippon Denso 60 amp alternators. Niagara sells 1000s of
NDs with I-VRs. Someone is buying them. How many does B&C sell?
As for the one problem with I-VR, there are a thousand times
more flying daily with no problem.
I WIN!
Ill take the THE DA VINCI CODE, hard back please.
>If you 'dust' me, I'll be pleased to send you a copy of "The
>Professional Amateur" by T.A. Boyd. It's a biography of
>Charles F. Kettering - a scientist worthy of much respect and
>emulation . . . one of my personal heroes.
You have already lost, so when you pick up THE DA VINCI
CODE for me, pick up a copy of that Bio you want for yourself,
to save a trip to the book store.
Bob, let us improve the understanding with out all the smoke
screen and posturing with irrelevant analogies, certification standards
and PROOF that will make YOU happy, which is not likely going to
happen, unless you do it yourself. You DO NOT represent I-VR at
all. What you suggest for E-VR is counter to safe efficient
operation of I-VR in my OPINION. No facts just opinion. However
I emphasize that I understand your position and respect it. Bottom
line people are going to use I-VRs no matter what you say. Why
not better understand the data that *IS* available than just
disparage the data as not being good enough. Lets use what
we have and know NOW. You just say not good enough.
George (write me for my address, so you can send my book.)
---------------------------------
Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments.
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Static Dischargers |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Carter" <dcarter11@sbcglobal.net>
I believe p-static is principally the noise created by static electricity
jumping from skin panel to skin panel on the way aft and finally off of the
plane in elevator and rudders. I think fiberglass stuff up front is a big
source of buildup. You could try running a wire from nose to tail, with good
electrical connection at each end - this might let the static build up on
fiberglass cowl (I'm thinking RV series aircraft) bleed off by going from
front to back without jumping a lot of little skin gaps along the way (don't
ask me why the fore-aft longerons wouldn't do the same).
David
----- Original Message -----
From: "steveadams" <dr_steve_adams@yahoo.com>
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 9:10 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Static Dischargers
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "steveadams"
> <dr_steve_adams@yahoo.com>
>
> Hopefully some of you can help me out. Last week I finally got to fly in
> some actual IMC in my plane (total of 4 hours actual). After about 15
> minutes in the clouds, my radio transmissions became more and more filled
> with static. Still understandable, but not very clear. No static when just
> listenning to controllers or talking without transmitting. Slowly cleared
> up after exiting clouds. I think this is a static build up problem and
> wondered what others thought. My airplane is an CH640 and I have braided
> grounding straps across rudder and horizontal tail hinges. They didn't
> specify static wicks in the design. I know that static dischargers should
> be out and back as far as possible, but otherwise am not sure about
> placement and how many I may need. Is there any general advise concerning
> placement and number, or is it basically a trial and error process to see
> what works?
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=17053#17053
>
>
>
Message 34
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| Subject: | Static Dischargers |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
Yes, we know of p-static. It's a real problem in our fast plastic airplanes.
The only solution the factory ever came up with was a copper mesh imbedded
in the glass close to the surface, this was also their solution to lightning
protection. I believe the same solution was used on the SR-20/22. Others
(builders) have had some success with conductive primer. Static wicks won't
work on our airplanes.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David
Carter
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 11:09 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Static Dischargers
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Carter"
<dcarter11@sbcglobal.net>
I believe p-static is principally the noise created by static electricity
jumping from skin panel to skin panel on the way aft and finally off of the
plane in elevator and rudders. I think fiberglass stuff up front is a big
source of buildup. You could try running a wire from nose to tail, with good
electrical connection at each end - this might let the static build up on
fiberglass cowl (I'm thinking RV series aircraft) bleed off by going from
front to back without jumping a lot of little skin gaps along the way (don't
ask me why the fore-aft longerons wouldn't do the same).
David
----- Original Message -----
From: "steveadams" <dr_steve_adams@yahoo.com>
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 9:10 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Static Dischargers
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "steveadams"
> <dr_steve_adams@yahoo.com>
>
> Hopefully some of you can help me out. Last week I finally got to fly in
> some actual IMC in my plane (total of 4 hours actual). After about 15
> minutes in the clouds, my radio transmissions became more and more filled
> with static. Still understandable, but not very clear. No static when just
> listenning to controllers or talking without transmitting. Slowly cleared
> up after exiting clouds. I think this is a static build up problem and
> wondered what others thought. My airplane is an CH640 and I have braided
> grounding straps across rudder and horizontal tail hinges. They didn't
> specify static wicks in the design. I know that static dischargers should
> be out and back as far as possible, but otherwise am not sure about
> placement and how many I may need. Is there any general advise concerning
> placement and number, or is it basically a trial and error process to see
> what works?
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=17053#17053
>
>
>
Message 35
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| Subject: | High Current Diodes |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Scott" <scott@randolphs.net>
Instead of a contactor and switch why not use one of these high current
diodes to protect a ground power plug (power in but not out)? Or at least
to eliminate the need for a disconnect switch by preventing "back flow" from
engergizing the contactor? Would these also be appropriate for feeding a
larger secondary bus?
http://www.surplussales.com/Semiconductors/Diodes-3.html
Or is there a dangerous failure mode or quirk in their specs I'm missing?
Thanks!
Scott.
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