Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:52 AM - Dynon (LarryRobertHelming)
2. 06:35 AM - Re: Update: Strange alternator behavior at Startup (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
3. 06:35 AM - Re: Back-Up Battery (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 06:39 AM - Re: Ground Power circuit diagram query & suggestion (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 06:43 AM - Re: Re: An Architecture Question - Z13 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 06:51 AM - Re: Re: Update: Strange alternator behavior at Startup (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 06:52 AM - dampening circuit request (Mickey Coggins)
8. 07:37 AM - Re: Re: Update: Strange alternator behavior at Startup (Brian Lloyd)
9. 08:10 AM - Re: dampening circuit request (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
10. 09:05 AM - Re: Re: Mike's LED Position lights (Bill Dube)
11. 09:34 AM - Re: Re: Mike's LED Position lights (Bill Dube)
12. 10:38 AM - Temperature compensation, UMA CHT (Gilles Tatry)
13. 12:14 PM - Re: dampening circuit request (Mickey Coggins)
14. 12:42 PM - Re: dampening circuit request (Mark R Steitle)
15. 01:17 PM - Re: dampening circuit request (Mickey Coggins)
16. 01:28 PM - Re: dampening circuit request (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
17. 02:27 PM - Re: Strange alternator behavior at Startup (BobN) ()
18. 02:27 PM - Re: dampening circuit request (Matt Prather)
19. 02:29 PM - Re: dampening circuit request (Matt Prather)
20. 03:17 PM - Re: Re: Strange alternator behavior at Startup (BobN) (Ron Shannon)
21. 04:37 PM - Re: Re: Strange alternator behavior at Startup (BobN) (Steve Thomas)
22. 05:14 PM - Re: Re: Strange alternator behavior at Startup (BobN) (Ron Shannon)
23. 05:28 PM - Re: George (Rodney Dunham)
24. 06:28 PM - Re: Re: George (William Slaughter)
25. 06:33 PM - FAA Lighting requirements link (Bill Czygan)
26. 07:13 PM - Bob Hoover Air Show] (Earl_Schroeder)
27. 07:32 PM - Re: FAA Lighting requirements link (Bill Dube)
28. 09:22 PM - Seminar in Bloomington, IL (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
29. 11:07 PM - Re: dampening circuit request (Mickey Coggins)
30. 11:31 PM - Official AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle)
31. 11:31 PM - Official AeroElectric-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) (Matt Dralle)
Message 1
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming" <lhelming@sigecom.net>
The Dynon product has an option of a built-in battery backup. It was an option
that I felt was unneeded since I was using Bob's e-bus wiring. I realize now
that I would like to have a separate battery for this purpose. I'd be interested
in knowing if anyone has installed this function using a small external battery.
A wiring diagram would be nice.
Indiana Larry, RV7 "SunSeeker" 90+ hours flying
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: Update: Strange alternator behavior at Startup |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
Startup
At 10:49 PM 2/28/2006 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com
>
>
>In a message dated 2/28/2006 8:02:43 P.M. Central Standard Time,
>mstewart@iss.net writes:
>
>So it would seem that it needs that initial rpm to get the juices
>flowing in the cold.
>I can live with that.
>Thanks to whom ever it was that suggested an initial burst of RPM to get
>her going. Worked
>Best,
>Mike
>Do not archive
>
>
>Good Evening Mike,
>
>Do you really want to give it that short burst of power?
>
>Personally, I like to warm up the engine at as low an RPM as possible
>consistent with adequate oil pressure and any need for the crankshaft to
>throw the
>oil against the innards of the engine. I do not know what engine you have,
>but I would not give it a burst above any RPM that I wanted to use for
>warm up
>purposes.
>
>Isn't that the whole idea behind doing a warm up?
Absolutely. The behavior noted is NOT what we would
generally consider acceptable . . . the "work around"
described is functional but it's almost a certainty
that this alternator is either deprived of some accommodation
that allows it to come up normally at ramp idle -OR-
has a design feature that makes it a poor choice for
use on aircraft.
Bob . . .
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Back-Up Battery |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 11:19 PM 2/28/2006 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mitchell Goodrich"
><mgoodrich@tampabay.rr.com>
>
>Hello All,
>
>I am installing a back-up battery an would like to monitor
>the condition (voltage) w/warning for it. Any ideas on
>what to use???
It would help us to know how you intend to install
it. Like figure Z-30? There's a product about to be
added to our bag of tricks. You can see the data
package at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9011/9011-700-1C.pdf
It's a two channel low voltage, single channel latching
high voltage management module. Designed specifically
for generator installations on older airplanes, it's
still applicable to a variety of modern applications.
One might consider this device for any or all of its
functional features. It will cost about the same
as the current LVWarn/ABMM module . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9005/9005-701B.pdf
but with 3x the functionality. So if you need only
one channel of LV warning (to watch your aux battery
circuit), you could certainly consider it. If you also
found uses for the remaining features, that's icing
on the cake.
Alternatively, you could craft your own LV warning
module by taking advantage of the ready-to-stuff
etched circuit board and fabrication package
offered at:
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/lvwarn/LVWarn-ABMM.html
and . .
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/lvwarn/9021-620.pdf
Bob . . .
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: Ground Power circuit diagram query & suggestion |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
suggestion
At 01:23 AM 3/1/2006 +0000, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Andy" <grimmers1@ntlworld.com>
>
>
>Hi Bob,
>I don't understand the need for a push-to-test lamp in your Low Cost
>Ground Power circuit (rev C 07/21/05).
>Surely it would provide a more useful function if it were a regular lamp
>directly connected to ground, therefore providing either;
>(a) a warning of presence of a ground power source, or;
>(b) a warning that the switch/breaker for ground power contactor is
>still closed (where the ground power contactor is held closed by ship's
>battery). This function seems important since the contactor takes
>nearly a Amp to maintain.
>
>Either of those without having to press a button to find out. Since you
>need some ground power-side volts to light it anyway, it will normally
>be off AND "un-testable".
>Better still, you could use a bi-colour LED, with GREEN for correct
>polarity and RED for inverted (help save a contactor diode if you
>reverse-connect the leads to the 4x4)
>
>My 1st post & just getting my head round all the issues, so excuse me if
>I missed something obvious. Looking forward to the book arriving
>tomorrow.
Certainly there are variations on the theme that provide
alternative flavors of functionality. The architecture cited
was crafted based on a customer's request for a hurry up
kit for a ground power jack, my experience with ground
power on aircraft and what was in my inventory of components
at the time.
You can certainly modify as you see fit. The important thing
is that you UNDERSTAND how the end product is going to work
and that features and performance are acceptable to you
as the systems designer and user.
Bob . . .
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: RE: An Architecture Question - Z13 |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 11:38 PM 2/28/2006 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Scott" <scott@randolphs.net>
>
> > What caused you to believe that a 60/20 combination of engine
> > driven power sources was the most useful/practical? What operational
> > consideration raises questions in the ability of one of the Z-figures
> > to handle as presently configured?
>
>Can't speak for Todd, but my thought pattern which arrived at a point
>similar to his was:
>I know that my alternator can't quite keep up with everything on while
>taxing at relatively low RPM. A little extra help would be nice. I'd also
>like to give the standby a little exercise as a way to ensure it's running.
>If it's always in standby it would be easy for it to fail and not be noticed
>-- until it was needed.
A bigger alternator doesn't automatically translate into
more snort at low rpm. If your modern, light weight
alternator is installed like B&C's with the stock 2.5" pulley
then you should be able to get nearly full output at taxi
RPMs.
Alternator sizing should be a function of your load analysis
for various cruising flight conditions. A 60/20 combo is
REALLY big, expensive and heavy comparted to 40/8. I'm not
suggesting you'll never need such capability, only that I'm
skeptical of most builder's plans to install this system without
also having evaluated system requirements in detail.
Bob . . .
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: RE: Update: Strange alternator behavior at Startup |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
at Startup
At 07:18 AM 2/28/2006 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
>
>
>Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
> <nuckollsr@cox.net>
> >
> > At 07:01 AM 2/28/2006 -0500, you wrote:
> >
> >> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)"
> >> <mstewart@iss.net>
> >>
> >> Oh.
> >> Well that is very interesting Brian. Could it be that my IGN wire is
> >> dead?
> >> I have the IGN with voltage applied before cranking (I think. I have not
> >> checked it since initial install) and I have an idiot light installed
> >> which does work as expected. I will check that IGN wire next time I have
> >> the cowl off to verify it is supplying power before cranking. Based on
> >> your note below, it is quite possible the IGN wire is doing nothing.
> >> Wonder why temperature is at play though.
> >>
> >> Ill check it and report back.
> >
> > Brian, have you been holding out on us?
>
>Uh, no. I thought this was common knowledge about IR alternators.
Just yanking your chain my friend. We do know that SOME alternators
under SOME conditions will come up self excited and that this feature
is incidental to the system design requirements. After some thought about
this thread, I'm almost convinced that there's something amiss with
the system cited. It should snap to attention within seconds of
startup and at ordinary idle/taxi RPM levels.
> > I've not been aware of
> > any automotive products that would ultimately self-excite at
> > any time interval or speed conditions. An interesting phenomenon to
> > contemplate.
>
>Almost every IR alternator I have played with exhibits this characteristic.
>
>Now it may be that new ones have no residual magnetism in the field
>armature and therefore cannot self excite. OTOH, *I* have not run into
>one that would not self excite once you turned it fast enough.
Good data point. Since I've never attempted to utilize
this capability in a design, I've never explored the
feature in practice.
> >
> > Just last year I shared the following from my experience with
> > the alternators on Bonanzas and Barons:
>
>Yeah. I just assumed that is how they were supposed to work too. And
>just the act of using them for awhile builds up magnetism in the
>armature. I suspect that, even if they don't self-excite when brand new,
>they will after having been used for several hours.
It stands to reason that since the retentivity of ANY magnetic
material is never zero, that the ability to self-excite probably
exists at SOME RPM even if scary to contemplate. It stands to
reason that many examples in the wild will exhibit the behavior
at fairly ordinary RPM levels.
Bob . . .
Message 7
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Subject: | dampening circuit request |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
Hi gurus of electrons,
As I mentioned in another thread, I want to have
a sensor that tells me when my coolant level is
too low.
I've ordered a Gems Sensors ELS-900, 12 VDC, Dry,
1/4" NPT, $54, part number 205300:
http://www.gemssensors.com/SpecTemplateStandard.asp?nProductGroupID=307
which is basically an optical on/off switch when it
goes from wet to dry. When the coolant is sloshing
around in the tank I suspect that my warning lamp
will be flickering on and off. Does anyone know of a
very simple way I could "dampen" this so that the
warning light will only come on if the sensor goes
dry for some period of time?
Thanks,
Mickey
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: RE: Update: Strange alternator behavior at Startup |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
On Mar 1, 2006, at 6:47 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III at Startup wrote:
>>>
>>> Brian, have you been holding out on us?
>>
>> Uh, no. I thought this was common knowledge about IR alternators.
>
> Just yanking your chain my friend.
Sorry. I tend to err on the literal side. ;-)
> We do know that SOME alternators
> under SOME conditions will come up self excited and that this
> feature
> is incidental to the system design requirements. After some
> thought about
> this thread, I'm almost convinced that there's something amiss
> with
> the system cited. It should snap to attention within seconds of
> startup and at ordinary idle/taxi RPM levels.
My experience with a LOT of alternators at this point is that they
need some RPM substantially higher than idle to self-excite. That is
why they use a small amount of current from the battery bus to
bootstrap them.
>>
>> Almost every IR alternator I have played with exhibits this
>> characteristic.
>>
>> Now it may be that new ones have no residual magnetism in the field
>> armature and therefore cannot self excite. OTOH, *I* have not run
>> into
>> one that would not self excite once you turned it fast enough.
>
> Good data point. Since I've never attempted to utilize
> this capability in a design, I've never explored the
> feature in practice.
And I have messed with enough of them to believe
this is a common behavior.
>>> Just last year I shared the following from my experience with
>>> the alternators on Bonanzas and Barons:
>>
>> Yeah. I just assumed that is how they were supposed to work too. And
>> just the act of using them for awhile builds up magnetism in the
>> armature. I suspect that, even if they don't self-excite when
>> brand new,
>> they will after having been used for several hours.
>
> It stands to reason that since the retentivity of ANY magnetic
> material is never zero, that the ability to self-excite probably
> exists at SOME RPM even if scary to contemplate. It stands to
> reason that many examples in the wild will exhibit the behavior
> at fairly ordinary RPM levels.
Right.
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: dampening circuit request |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 03:52 PM 3/1/2006 +0100, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins
><mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
>
>Hi gurus of electrons,
>
>As I mentioned in another thread, I want to have
>a sensor that tells me when my coolant level is
>too low.
>
>I've ordered a Gems Sensors ELS-900, 12 VDC, Dry,
>1/4" NPT, $54, part number 205300:
>
>http://www.gemssensors.com/SpecTemplateStandard.asp?nProductGroupID=307
>
>which is basically an optical on/off switch when it
>goes from wet to dry. When the coolant is sloshing
>around in the tank I suspect that my warning lamp
>will be flickering on and off. Does anyone know of a
>very simple way I could "dampen" this so that the
>warning light will only come on if the sensor goes
>dry for some period of time?
Sure . . .
First, a long time-delay (resistor/capacitor)
is the simplest but its an integrator of amplitude
with time. It prevents a jittering light but will
not insure that it never flashes at or during
operation at the level transition.
Given your particular application, you're not really
interested in minute/by/minute interpretation of a
level in the tank . . . like for a consumable (fuel).
If the level is so low that the light comes on even
once, then and investigation and remedy is called for.
What may work best for you is a latching circuit.
A small relay with holding contacts rigged so that
once actuated, the light stays on until reset (momentary
power down).
The 9011 module I've cited in other posts will be
re-incarnated as a low fuel warning for tanks with
floats. The presence of a microcontroller allows us
to craft warning protocols where the light doesn't
come on until the float voltage is at or below the
trip point for say 50% or more of the last 30 seconds.
After that, the light stays on until the voltage is
above the trip point for say 100% of the last two
minutes.
This would offer slosh filtering and precise, no
hesitation operation of the warning lights.
As you might guess, the options and approaches
to solution are great in number. What is your vision
of the elegant solution?
Bob . . .
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: Mike's LED Position lights |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Bill Dube <william.p.dube@noaa.gov>
Gladly!
http://www.killacycle.com/Lights.htm
Peter Laurence wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Peter Laurence" <PLaurence@the-beach.net>
>
>
> My LED position lights put out more than what the FAA requires in
>all directions, and they are less expensive than any other LED position
>light on the market (some of which do not put out the light required by
>the FAA.)
>
> Bill Dube'
>
>
>Bill,
>
>Can will you point me to your web site?
>
>Peter
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: Mike's LED Position lights |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Bill Dube <william.p.dube@noaa.gov>
Lloyd, Daniel R. wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Lloyd, Daniel R." <LloydDR@wernerco.com>
>
>On their website all of the new version III's and V's all have spec
>sheets with Lumen ratings and the appropriate charts to determine
>viewing angles, and with more than 80% intensity over 140 degree
>spectrum, it would be very easy to get the required fill rate of light
>that the FAA requires, and with shaped reflectors, you can even cut off
>the angles. Using fog lights from walmart($15) and replacing the halogen
>bulbs with 4 Luxeons ($30), plus the power supply ($25) easily meets and
>exceeds the requirements for much less money than you would think.
> Just my .02
>Dan
>RV10
>
>
The FAA requires specific candlepower in specific directions. (It
only makes sense to do so.)
Lumens don't give you candlepower directly. You can't calculate the
candlepower with the information they provide. Once you buy one, and
measure the candlepower, you realize that you can produce that same
candlepower using several, much less expensive, 5 mm LEDs.
Bill Dube'
Message 12
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Subject: | Temperature compensation, UMA CHT |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Gilles Tatry" <gilles.tatry@wanadoo.fr>
Hi Bob,
Please find hereafter Jean-Pierre's analysis of my CHT compensation issue.
He got the instrument, did some bench testing, and proposes an interface
architecture as follows.
Any comment?
Gilles
----- Original Message -----
From: "CASTIELLO, Jean-pierre" <jean-pierre.castiello@airbus.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 3:56 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Temperature compensation, UMA CHT
Gilles,
here are some pictures of the CHT instrument.
There are 3 boards:
- input wiring, overvoltage protection(I guess );
- signal conditionning;
- air core indicator amplifier, that has 4 wires: 2 power (red and black),
and 2 signal (white and blue).
The idea is to design an interface to be input to the air core amplifier,
with minimum modifications to the unit, so that back is always possible ( a
bird in hand is worth ten in the bush ...).
I did some measurements on the unit in order to find the gain and offset
that the new interface should have.
I found the signal on the white wire on the air core amplifier (blue one is
still unknown to me, unless I do some reverse engineering on the signal
conditionning board, )
Measured voltage at this point:
for a 50C display -> 2.27V
150C -> 3.615V
280C -> 5.425VC
So this is an offset of 1.6V and a gain of 13.5mV / C
I do not know about the input voltage right at the connector because I was
not in a type J TC configuration and the corresponding voltage was
meaningless.
The complete excel file is available. Anyway the display seems to be linear
and an AD594 amplifier followed by some op-amp to compensate for gain and
offset should do.
Jean-Pierre
Message 13
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Subject: | Re: dampening circuit request |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
Bob, Thanks for your suggestions.
> First, a long time-delay (resistor/capacitor)
> is the simplest but its an integrator of amplitude
> with time. It prevents a jittering light but will
> not insure that it never flashes at or during
> operation at the level transition.
I'm not sure I understand what you've written here.
If I have 300cc in my 500cc tank, and I set
the sensor at about the 100cc level, then
a bit of sloshing should not cause the light
to flicker. However, if the level gets to
about 150cc or below, I might see flickering.
Is that what you are saying?
> Given your particular application, you're not really
> interested in minute/by/minute interpretation of a
> level in the tank . . . like for a consumable (fuel).
Exactly.
> If the level is so low that the light comes on even
> once, then and investigation and remedy is called for.
> What may work best for you is a latching circuit.
> A small relay with holding contacts rigged so that
> once actuated, the light stays on until reset (momentary
> power down).
This would be fine as long as I can be reasonably sure
it is not a false alarm.
> The 9011 module I've cited in other posts will be
> re-incarnated as a low fuel warning for tanks with
> floats. The presence of a microcontroller allows us
> to craft warning protocols where the light doesn't
> come on until the float voltage is at or below the
> trip point for say 50% or more of the last 30 seconds.
> After that, the light stays on until the voltage is
> above the trip point for say 100% of the last two
> minutes.
That sounds perfect!
> This would offer slosh filtering and precise, no
> hesitation operation of the warning lights.
>
> As you might guess, the options and approaches
> to solution are great in number. What is your vision
> of the elegant solution?
What you describe above sounds great, in terms of
function. I have no idea what kind of packaging
would be required for the microprocessor, but
obviously the smaller the better!
Perhaps if the 9011 solution is a ways down the road,
you could tell me how to hook up the previously mentioned
simple solution with the resister/capacitor. No hurry
on this - I've got the wires run and I can add
in the necessary bits and pieces later.
Many thanks,
Mickey
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
Message 14
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Subject: | dampening circuit request |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark R Steitle" <mark.steitle@austin.utexas.edu>
Mickey,
A low-tech way to accomplish this would be to use an anti-slosh baffle
inside the tank to dampen out the waves. Admittedly, this solution
isn't as exciting.
Mark Steitle
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Mickey Coggins
Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 2:11 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: dampening circuit request
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins
<mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
Bob, Thanks for your suggestions.
> First, a long time-delay (resistor/capacitor)
> is the simplest but its an integrator of amplitude
> with time. It prevents a jittering light but will
> not insure that it never flashes at or during
> operation at the level transition.
I'm not sure I understand what you've written here.
If I have 300cc in my 500cc tank, and I set
the sensor at about the 100cc level, then
a bit of sloshing should not cause the light
to flicker. However, if the level gets to
about 150cc or below, I might see flickering.
Is that what you are saying?
> Given your particular application, you're not really
> interested in minute/by/minute interpretation of a
> level in the tank . . . like for a consumable (fuel).
Exactly.
> If the level is so low that the light comes on even
> once, then and investigation and remedy is called for.
> What may work best for you is a latching circuit.
> A small relay with holding contacts rigged so that
> once actuated, the light stays on until reset (momentary
> power down).
This would be fine as long as I can be reasonably sure
it is not a false alarm.
> The 9011 module I've cited in other posts will be
> re-incarnated as a low fuel warning for tanks with
> floats. The presence of a microcontroller allows us
> to craft warning protocols where the light doesn't
> come on until the float voltage is at or below the
> trip point for say 50% or more of the last 30 seconds.
> After that, the light stays on until the voltage is
> above the trip point for say 100% of the last two
> minutes.
That sounds perfect!
> This would offer slosh filtering and precise, no
> hesitation operation of the warning lights.
>
> As you might guess, the options and approaches
> to solution are great in number. What is your vision
> of the elegant solution?
What you describe above sounds great, in terms of
function. I have no idea what kind of packaging
would be required for the microprocessor, but
obviously the smaller the better!
Perhaps if the 9011 solution is a ways down the road,
you could tell me how to hook up the previously mentioned
simple solution with the resister/capacitor. No hurry
on this - I've got the wires run and I can add
in the necessary bits and pieces later.
Many thanks,
Mickey
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
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Subject: | Re: dampening circuit request |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
> A low-tech way to accomplish this would be to use an anti-slosh baffle
> inside the tank to dampen out the waves. Admittedly, this solution
> isn't as exciting.
Hi Mark,
I would have liked to do this, but the tank is already
built. I didn't consider getting a baffle put in
when I designed the tank, and it would cost me another
$250 for a new tank.
When I get the sensor, I'm going to look to see if it
would be possible to slip something over the sensor
before I screw it into the tank. It's only a 1/4"
NPT fitting, so I don't have a lot of room.
Thanks for the suggestion!
Mickey
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
do not archive
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Subject: | Re: dampening circuit request |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 09:10 PM 3/1/2006 +0100, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins
><mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
>
>Bob, Thanks for your suggestions.
>
> > First, a long time-delay (resistor/capacitor)
> > is the simplest but its an integrator of amplitude
> > with time. It prevents a jittering light but will
> > not insure that it never flashes at or during
> > operation at the level transition.
>
>I'm not sure I understand what you've written here.
>
>If I have 300cc in my 500cc tank, and I set
>the sensor at about the 100cc level, then
>a bit of sloshing should not cause the light
>to flicker. However, if the level gets to
>about 150cc or below, I might see flickering.
>Is that what you are saying?
Yes . . . or even 110cc or 120cc etc. The closer
you get to the "calibrated" switch point, the more
likely you are to get periodic false lights. However,
if you see ANY light for even a transient condition
at say 150cc (1/2 normal) then there has been an
observable loss of liquid. It seems immaterial whether
the real average level = 100cc calibrated or 150cc
and produces transient trips. In this case, the latching
circuit is easy to implement and does the job.
> > Given your particular application, you're not really
> > interested in minute/by/minute interpretation of a
> > level in the tank . . . like for a consumable (fuel).
>
>Exactly.
>
> > If the level is so low that the light comes on even
> > once, then and investigation and remedy is called for.
> > What may work best for you is a latching circuit.
> > A small relay with holding contacts rigged so that
> > once actuated, the light stays on until reset (momentary
> > power down).
>
>This would be fine as long as I can be reasonably sure
>it is not a false alarm.
>
> > The 9011 module I've cited in other posts will be
> > re-incarnated as a low fuel warning for tanks with
> > floats. The presence of a microcontroller allows us
> > to craft warning protocols where the light doesn't
> > come on until the float voltage is at or below the
> > trip point for say 50% or more of the last 30 seconds.
> > After that, the light stays on until the voltage is
> > above the trip point for say 100% of the last two
> > minutes.
>
>That sounds perfect!
>
> > This would offer slosh filtering and precise, no
> > hesitation operation of the warning lights.
> >
> > As you might guess, the options and approaches
> > to solution are great in number. What is your vision
> > of the elegant solution?
>
>What you describe above sounds great, in terms of
>function. I have no idea what kind of packaging
>would be required for the microprocessor, but
>obviously the smaller the better!
>
>Perhaps if the 9011 solution is a ways down the road,
>you could tell me how to hook up the previously mentioned
>simple solution with the resister/capacitor. No hurry
>on this - I've got the wires run and I can add
>in the necessary bits and pieces later.
The 9011 exists right now. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9011/9011-700-1C.pdf
This could be re-programmed and offered with a variety
of capabilities controlled by software. The package
shown is going to house perhaps a dozen new products on
the drawing board.
Bob . . .
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Subject: | Re: Strange alternator behavior at Startup (BobN) |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com>
>>From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" nuckollsr@cox.net
>>Subject: Re: Strange alternator behavior at Startup (BobN)
> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com>
>
> Bob, most of what you wrote has nothing to do with the topic?
>
> It is not a debate of IF you should use a I-VR alternator, but I will
>try to address you question, fully knowing you will never be
>satisfied.
>>Bob N wrote
>>If they have understanding to offer, the block diagrams,
>>schematics, test results, etc are in order. That's what I offer and I
>>expect no less.
>>
> Just call them Bob. What's the big deal?
>>Bob you provide a wealth of knowledge and experience. I think
>>we all can say is of immense help and enjoyment to us amateur
>>airplane electricians. Your help to airplane builders in garages
>>and hangers world over is with out dispute. Even if I don't agree
>>with you, that does not mean I don't understand your point or
>>disrespect your accomplishments.
>>You can't have it both ways George. If my experience and
>>accomplishments have value, then there must be some useful
>>application of tools and philosophies upon which those
>>accomplishments are based. In one breath you extol the
>>virtues of those accomplishments, and in the next you brush
>>my opinion aside because it does not agree with the one you
>>formed by calling folks on the phone. I talk to lots of people
>>and I read lots of data sheets but these are STARTING places . . .
>>I asked you to help explain the inner workings of an exemplar
>>regulator with a goal of seeing if advertising hype (and the opinions
>>of those you talked to on the phone) have foundation in physics
>>and simple-ideas.
**Bob we have fundamental and philosophical differences. You want to
know the esoteric. I on the other hand want to understand how to install
and operate internally regulated ND alternator by looking at real world
operational issues, we all can learn from. When I say WE, I mean I-VR
alternator users. This is not a debate about I-VR Vs. E-VR, engineers or
spec sheets.
**Only you know what you want to know. A true scientist is unbiased.
You are a smart guy; go figure it out. Get an aftermarket ND I-VR; They
can cost $15-$25. Buy one and test it. Better yet go to the auto store and
buy lester 14684 (aka Vans Alt). Test it. You seem to ask questions for
questions sake. If you read what I have written, than you know how I
recommend to install and use an I-VR. If you want to verify spec sheets,
knock yourself out. DO IT, but stop talking about it.
**You always talk about testing, but you rarely do what you say you
are going to do. I can't count how many times you said, I am going to test
such and such, but your test data never materializes? Just do the research
yourself and stop asking me. OK, thanks. :-) We are all counting on U.
**Some how to make a point, you ask questions that people can not or
need not really answer (to your liking). It's a waste of time. USE DATA
WE HAVE. Trust it or don't trust it, that's your business. The rest of us
want to go fly and learn from other users of alternators with I-VR's.
**The data you want, IF YOU REALLY WANT IT, is out there. I think you
are just blowing smoke Bob. A true scientist or engineer does not need to
be spoon fed info but goes out and gets it. Go get it Bob.
>>After sorting out the sand in data sheets, it's a good idea
>>to hit lab and RUN the thing. It's not common but I've discovered
>>things about people's products that they had no understanding
>>of (and we didn't either until after a few $hundred thousands$
>>went down the tubes in warranty work).
**Agreed, you are smart, spec sheets can be wrong. So?
**Let me tell you where WE, us homebuilders are coming from. WE
want to fly, be safe and have fun. We want a good, inexpensive, reliable,
easily installed alternator that can be replaced anywhere in the country
cheaply with a visit to a local AUTOPART store. Not a custom, esoteric
single source supplier specialty item (B&C). I LOVE that you want to know
the nitty-gritty of a spec sheet verses the real world. GREAT! U-Da-Man! **
**Go get'em Bob. My apathy is not born of ignorance but practicality.
Practically speaking it has worked in my plane and others for 10,000's of
hours with no problem. It has also worked in MILLION'S of cars trucks
and industrial equipment all over the works for over two decades. Test all
you want. I don't need to test a wheel to see if it will roll. I do want to learn
what the best tire pressure is so I can put fill it properly for best service.**
****I understand there are unknowns of the I-VR, but those unknowns are
falling fast as WE, I-VR users talk and compare notes. Understanding the
advantages of the I-VR as well as the limitations is critical. OK. In the
past much IGNORANCE was stated as fact on this list, most if it negative
and faults. This is so anti-scientific I could puke. I am not saying the I-
VR is perfect, the greatest thing since sliced bread BUT lets get real.
THERE ARE REAL ADVANTAGES INSIDE THE I-VR AND IN USING
THEM. The whole industry of small alternators has gone to I-VR.*****
**Lets, understand the real characteristics of the I-VR for airplane
operations, instead of lies & exaggerated OV tales. Understanding the
different ways they might fail and the symptoms prior to failure is what we
NEED. Details about a schematic or how engineers don't know what they
are doing is NOT important, except to you Mr. Bob N. You have a
crusade that you campaign. You also are VERY biased. It gets in the way
of being the teacher, engineer and scientist you fancy yourself as. I still
like you Bob, but you really have PO'ed a few people with this attitude
that WE need to prove things to YOU. Take it or leave it, but leave it alone
if you do not want to pursue it. Prove that is NOT that way. Sue me.
**That is not what WE want. I am sorry. I can't give you the knowledge
you seek oh wise one, this is a journey you must walk alone Sparky.
**This is not a big deal; Its an alternator. NO BIGGIE. There are millions
and millions of these ND alternators all over the world working famously.
They can't be all bad. They DO IN FACT HAVE control and logic
functions. I guess if you want to know the info, it's there. Asking me a
billion times will not change the fact I-VR have some real advantage over
E-VR's. Sorry Bob, Sorry B&C.
>>Real engineering (and teaching) can be accomplished only when
>>the activities are supported by an understanding and artful
>>assemblage of simple-ideas. If you choose to drive your career
>>and tutelage based on telephone conversations and faithful
>>acceptance of bang-for-the-buck-bullets on data sheets, it's
>>your choice - but not mine. What you have accepted and now
>>promote as FACT has yet to be demonstrated.
>>
>>I'll publish the MC33092 trade study to show others on the list
>>how the most successful engineering is conducted. By the way,
>>"work product" is anything which you have created. The trade
>>study will be my work product based on the products of others
>>offered as a potential guide for the future efforts of still
>>more folks. That's what engineers do George . . . make sure
>>all the bits and pieces fit smoothly into the whole.
>>
>>Bob . . .
**Bob N: Sorry, all I got from your above is blaaa blaaa, real engineer,
blaaa, blaaa blaaa, bang-for-the-buck-bullets, blaaa, blaaa , career and
tutelage, blaaa, blaaa blaaa. Whisky Tango Foxtrot! Focus, focus focus
Bob! Stick to the topic, for once.
** I know you are trying to tell me how important this is to you. I BELIEVE
YOU. However my apathy is not for lack of intelligence, education or ability.
Its that I don't care as an end user. Why? Because I have over 1000 hour
of reliable trouble free I-VR experience and my plane is wired so if it does
fail, the chance of causing harm to me or the airframe is S000OOOooo
remote, I can accept it (without a crow bar) using a CB, manually opened.
**With more operational experience of others WE have improved OUR
installation and OUR operational philosophy. My rule is essentially wire
and operate the alternator as if it where in the vehicle it was designed for.
I have some additional recommendations, below as a PS.
**Here are the top of the line CB's for the B-lead disconnect:
http://www.ti.com/snc/products/controls/acb-6752-12.htm
http://www.ti.com/snc/products/controls/acb-6752-1xx.htm
**If you want to look over Nippondenso or Motorola's REAL engineers
who designed the thing in the first place, go for it. I CAN'T tell you how
they design and make an IC chip, like an Intel Pentium chip, but I know
how to write an e-mail and call them and ask how it works. I know the
general theory of semiconductors and silicon wafers, but I don't need to
know everything about every IC to use a computer or alternator. I think
the engineers at these companies know a thing or two about testing Bob.
**I will concede and leave the REAL engineering to you. Good luck. I
suggest you pick up the phone and start to ask people who manufacture
the stuff. They may be able to guide you in a direction that will further
your knowledge. IF YOU DON'T TRY YOU WILL LEARN NOTHING.
**If you have any questions on how the I-VR work and not all the blaaa
blaaa, just ask me Mr. Bob N. I'll try to help you like I help anyone who
has a genuine I-VR question or concern. Again THIS IS NOT about can you,
should you, pros and cons or the I-VR verses E-VR. This is just for
people who USE the gosh darn I-VR. Once YOU understand WE ARE
GOING TO USE IT NO MATTER WHAT YOU SAY, than it'll get
easier for you Bob. Help or get out of the way Sir.
**Bob, please stop asking irrelevant questions for 99.9% of us, the users
of I-VR. We don't want stories or guesses either. The more we talk about
installation issues and REAL operational characteristics the better we will
understand how they work. Does B&C publish the internal design for
YOUR voltage regulator by the way? If so I want a copy. Single point failure?
**As far as COLD temp characteristics, THIS IS INTERESTING. This is
a real world field TEST. I never operated in these temps. So the point,
is this a NORMAL operating characteristics?; Next time anyone fly's
in fringed weather, sees a delay in charge or no charge until a specific
RPM, we know what's going on, good or bad. THAT IS IMPORTANT
and PRACTICAL. Bob, you have to think like a PILOT more on
operational issues, than just the esoterica of an electrical system.
**All the other personal stuff and REAL engineer comments are pointless,
Sparky. :-) I respect your position, I just think it adds no real value unless
you are going to get the first certified I-VR. Being experimental DON'T CARE.
**Take Care George (you owe me a book btw)
**PS some of my personal rules for installing and using a I-VR
alternator: Besides wiring and using the alternator as if it where installed
in the vehicle it was designed for, I recommend cooling air on the VR, no
continuous duty over 75% and pullable CB on panel for B-lead. Also
check or replace brushes every 200 to 500 hours. (I think they cost $1.95
each.) Be sure to use the warning light and remote voltage sense IF IT
HAS ONE. NOT ALL ND alternators have remote sense. Vans 14684
does NOT have remote volt sense. Also don't screw with turning the
alternator ON/OFF while its turning under load. WHY? Because every
guy I know of that does this seems to have problems and it DOES NOT
work that way in a Toyota or Geo Metro. THIS IS NOT ROCKET
SCEINCE. Last and I know this makes Bob mad, don't put an OV relay
and crow-bar unless you are darn sure it will not trip unnecessarily. Since
nuisance trips are hard to guarantee against, I would not do it at all, but
that is an individual choice. ALL manuals for ND alternator installation
say DO NOT operate the alternator with out the battery connected to the
battery. (sorry Paul). An OV relay does just that and can damage the
alternator. Its fine if you actually have an OV, but the chance of a OV that
you can't fix by manual opening of the CB is REAL slim, if you follow basics.
---------------------------------
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Subject: | Re: dampening circuit request |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" <mprather@spro.net>
I think I actually like the 'flicker' effect associated with being right
on the edge of min capacity. If the volume in the tank is dropping
slowly, then the flickering will start very intermittently, gradually grow
more frequent, then finally the light will stay on continuously. If,
however, the level is dropping rapidly (developed serious leak), then the
light will go from always off to always on very quickly - indicating that
landing as soon as possible is the best bet.
Procedurally, check the level in the system prior to starting the engine
and make the go-no-go level significantly higher than the sensor level.
Then, if the light turns on while on a flight of normal length, you _know_
you have a leak.
Matt-
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
> <nuckollsr@cox.net>
>
> At 09:10 PM 3/1/2006 +0100, you wrote:
>
>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins
>><mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
>>
>>Bob, Thanks for your suggestions.
>>
>> > First, a long time-delay (resistor/capacitor)
>> > is the simplest but its an integrator of amplitude
>> > with time. It prevents a jittering light but will
>> > not insure that it never flashes at or during
>> > operation at the level transition.
>>
>>I'm not sure I understand what you've written here.
>>
>>If I have 300cc in my 500cc tank, and I set
>>the sensor at about the 100cc level, then
>>a bit of sloshing should not cause the light
>>to flicker. However, if the level gets to
>>about 150cc or below, I might see flickering.
>>Is that what you are saying?
>
> Yes . . . or even 110cc or 120cc etc. The closer
> you get to the "calibrated" switch point, the more
> likely you are to get periodic false lights. However,
> if you see ANY light for even a transient condition
> at say 150cc (1/2 normal) then there has been an
> observable loss of liquid. It seems immaterial whether
> the real average level = 100cc calibrated or 150cc
> and produces transient trips. In this case, the latching
> circuit is easy to implement and does the job.
>
>
>> > Given your particular application, you're not really
>> > interested in minute/by/minute interpretation of a
>> > level in the tank . . . like for a consumable (fuel).
>>
>>Exactly.
>>
>> > If the level is so low that the light comes on even
>> > once, then and investigation and remedy is called for.
>> > What may work best for you is a latching circuit.
>> > A small relay with holding contacts rigged so that
>> > once actuated, the light stays on until reset (momentary
>> > power down).
>>
>>This would be fine as long as I can be reasonably sure
>>it is not a false alarm.
>>
>> > The 9011 module I've cited in other posts will be
>> > re-incarnated as a low fuel warning for tanks with
>> > floats. The presence of a microcontroller allows us
>> > to craft warning protocols where the light doesn't
>> > come on until the float voltage is at or below the
>> > trip point for say 50% or more of the last 30 seconds.
>> > After that, the light stays on until the voltage is
>> > above the trip point for say 100% of the last two
>> > minutes.
>>
>>That sounds perfect!
>>
>> > This would offer slosh filtering and precise, no
>> > hesitation operation of the warning lights.
>> >
>> > As you might guess, the options and approaches
>> > to solution are great in number. What is your vision
>> > of the elegant solution?
>>
>>What you describe above sounds great, in terms of
>>function. I have no idea what kind of packaging
>>would be required for the microprocessor, but
>>obviously the smaller the better!
>>
>>Perhaps if the 9011 solution is a ways down the road,
>>you could tell me how to hook up the previously mentioned
>>simple solution with the resister/capacitor. No hurry
>>on this - I've got the wires run and I can add
>>in the necessary bits and pieces later.
>
> The 9011 exists right now. See:
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9011/9011-700-1C.pdf
>
> This could be re-programmed and offered with a variety
> of capabilities controlled by software. The package
> shown is going to house perhaps a dozen new products on
> the drawing board.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
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|
Subject: | Re: dampening circuit request |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" <mprather@spro.net>
YABI (Yet Another Brilliant Idea)... :)
Attach fittings for tubing in the top and bottom of the tank. Mount the
sensor to the _outside_ of the tank at the proper level. Attach a tee to
the sensor, and run tubing from each side of the tee to the fittings on
the top and bottom of the tank. Put restrictions in the tubing to damp
fluid flow past the sensor the as necessary.
Matt-
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins
> <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
>
>> A low-tech way to accomplish this would be to use an anti-slosh baffle
>> inside the tank to dampen out the waves. Admittedly, this solution
>> isn't as exciting.
>
> Hi Mark,
>
> I would have liked to do this, but the tank is already
> built. I didn't consider getting a baffle put in
> when I designed the tank, and it would cost me another
> $250 for a new tank.
>
> When I get the sensor, I'm going to look to see if it
> would be possible to slip something over the sensor
> before I screw it into the tank. It's only a 1/4"
> NPT fitting, so I don't have a lot of room.
>
> Thanks for the suggestion!
>
> Mickey
>
>
> --
> Mickey Coggins
> http://www.rv8.ch/
> #82007 finishing
>
>
> do not archive
>
>
Message 20
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|
Subject: | Re: Strange alternator behavior at Startup (BobN) |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ron Shannon <rshannon@cruzcom.com>
I'm new to this list, but... the tone of the message below is, IMHO,
appalling. Surely this list is not the place for such hyperbolic
personal attacks. May I also respectfully suggest, gmcpilot, you are a
little presumptuous to claim to speak for "WE builders". You don't speak
for me.
Please lighten up, and keep to technical discussion, without all the
personal invective. That's why most of us subscribe. Thanks.
Ron
gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com>
>
>>>From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" nuckollsr@cox.net
>>>Subject: Re: Strange alternator behavior at Startup (BobN)
>
>
>
>
>>AeroElectric-List message posted by: <gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com>
>>
>>Bob, most of what you wrote has nothing to do with the topic?
>>
>>It is not a debate of IF you should use a I-VR alternator, but I will
>>try to address you question, fully knowing you will never be
>>satisfied.
>
>
>
>>>Bob N wrote
>>>If they have understanding to offer, the block diagrams,
>>>schematics, test results, etc are in order. That's what I offer and I
>>>expect no less.
>>>
>
>
>
>> Just call them Bob. What's the big deal?
>
>
> >>Bob you provide a wealth of knowledge and experience. I think
>
>>>we all can say is of immense help and enjoyment to us amateur
>>>airplane electricians. Your help to airplane builders in garages
>>>and hangers world over is with out dispute. Even if I don't agree
>>>with you, that does not mean I don't understand your point or
>>>disrespect your accomplishments.
>
> >>You can't have it both ways George. If my experience and
>
>>>accomplishments have value, then there must be some useful
>>>application of tools and philosophies upon which those
>>>accomplishments are based. In one breath you extol the
>>>virtues of those accomplishments, and in the next you brush
>>>my opinion aside because it does not agree with the one you
>>>formed by calling folks on the phone. I talk to lots of people
>>>and I read lots of data sheets but these are STARTING places . . .
>
>
>
>>>I asked you to help explain the inner workings of an exemplar
>>>regulator with a goal of seeing if advertising hype (and the opinions
>>>of those you talked to on the phone) have foundation in physics
>>>and simple-ideas.
>
>
>
> **Bob we have fundamental and philosophical differences. You want to
> know the esoteric. I on the other hand want to understand how to install
> and operate internally regulated ND alternator by looking at real world
> operational issues, we all can learn from. When I say WE, I mean I-VR
> alternator users. This is not a debate about I-VR Vs. E-VR, engineers or
> spec sheets.
>
> **Only you know what you want to know. A true scientist is unbiased.
> You are a smart guy; go figure it out. Get an aftermarket ND I-VR; They
> can cost $15-$25. Buy one and test it. Better yet go to the auto store and
> buy lester 14684 (aka Vans Alt). Test it. You seem to ask questions for
> questions sake. If you read what I have written, than you know how I
> recommend to install and use an I-VR. If you want to verify spec sheets,
> knock yourself out. DO IT, but stop talking about it.
>
> **You always talk about testing, but you rarely do what you say you
> are going to do. I can't count how many times you said, I am going to test
> such and such, but your test data never materializes? Just do the research
> yourself and stop asking me. OK, thanks. :-) We are all counting on U.
>
> **Some how to make a point, you ask questions that people can not or
> need not really answer (to your liking). It's a waste of time. USE DATA
> WE HAVE. Trust it or don't trust it, that's your business. The rest of us
> want to go fly and learn from other users of alternators with I-VR's.
>
> **The data you want, IF YOU REALLY WANT IT, is out there. I think you
> are just blowing smoke Bob. A true scientist or engineer does not need to
> be spoon fed info but goes out and gets it. Go get it Bob.
>
>
>>>After sorting out the sand in data sheets, it's a good idea
>>>to hit lab and RUN the thing. It's not common but I've discovered
>>>things about people's products that they had no understanding
>>>of (and we didn't either until after a few $hundred thousands$
>>>went down the tubes in warranty work).
>
>
> **Agreed, you are smart, spec sheets can be wrong. So?
>
>
> **Let me tell you where WE, us homebuilders are coming from. WE
> want to fly, be safe and have fun. We want a good, inexpensive, reliable,
> easily installed alternator that can be replaced anywhere in the country
> cheaply with a visit to a local AUTOPART store. Not a custom, esoteric
> single source supplier specialty item (B&C). I LOVE that you want to know
> the nitty-gritty of a spec sheet verses the real world. GREAT! U-Da-Man! **
>
>
>
> **Go get'em Bob. My apathy is not born of ignorance but practicality.
> Practically speaking it has worked in my plane and others for 10,000's of
> hours with no problem. It has also worked in MILLION'S of cars trucks
> and industrial equipment all over the works for over two decades. Test all
> you want. I don't need to test a wheel to see if it will roll. I do want to learn
> what the best tire pressure is so I can put fill it properly for best service.**
>
>
> ****I understand there are unknowns of the I-VR, but those unknowns are
> falling fast as WE, I-VR users talk and compare notes. Understanding the
> advantages of the I-VR as well as the limitations is critical. OK. In the
> past much IGNORANCE was stated as fact on this list, most if it negative
> and faults. This is so anti-scientific I could puke. I am not saying the I-
> VR is perfect, the greatest thing since sliced bread BUT lets get real.
> THERE ARE REAL ADVANTAGES INSIDE THE I-VR AND IN USING
> THEM. The whole industry of small alternators has gone to I-VR.*****
>
>
>
> **Lets, understand the real characteristics of the I-VR for airplane
> operations, instead of lies & exaggerated OV tales. Understanding the
> different ways they might fail and the symptoms prior to failure is what we
> NEED. Details about a schematic or how engineers don't know what they
> are doing is NOT important, except to you Mr. Bob N. You have a
> crusade that you campaign. You also are VERY biased. It gets in the way
> of being the teacher, engineer and scientist you fancy yourself as. I still
> like you Bob, but you really have PO'ed a few people with this attitude
> that WE need to prove things to YOU. Take it or leave it, but leave it alone
> if you do not want to pursue it. Prove that is NOT that way. Sue me.
>
>
> **That is not what WE want. I am sorry. I can't give you the knowledge
> you seek oh wise one, this is a journey you must walk alone Sparky.
>
>
> **This is not a big deal; Its an alternator. NO BIGGIE. There are millions
> and millions of these ND alternators all over the world working famously.
> They can't be all bad. They DO IN FACT HAVE control and logic
> functions. I guess if you want to know the info, it's there. Asking me a
> billion times will not change the fact I-VR have some real advantage over
> E-VR's. Sorry Bob, Sorry B&C.
>
>
> >>Real engineering (and teaching) can be accomplished only when
>
>>>the activities are supported by an understanding and artful
>>>assemblage of simple-ideas. If you choose to drive your career
>>>and tutelage based on telephone conversations and faithful
>>>acceptance of bang-for-the-buck-bullets on data sheets, it's
>>>your choice - but not mine. What you have accepted and now
>>>promote as FACT has yet to be demonstrated.
>>>
>>>I'll publish the MC33092 trade study to show others on the list
>>>how the most successful engineering is conducted. By the way,
>>>"work product" is anything which you have created. The trade
>>>study will be my work product based on the products of others
>>>offered as a potential guide for the future efforts of still
>>>more folks. That's what engineers do George . . . make sure
>>>all the bits and pieces fit smoothly into the whole.
>>>
>>>Bob . . .
>
>
>
> **Bob N: Sorry, all I got from your above is blaaa blaaa, real engineer,
> blaaa, blaaa blaaa, bang-for-the-buck-bullets, blaaa, blaaa , career and
> tutelage, blaaa, blaaa blaaa. Whisky Tango Foxtrot! Focus, focus focus
> Bob! Stick to the topic, for once.
>
>
> ** I know you are trying to tell me how important this is to you. I BELIEVE
> YOU. However my apathy is not for lack of intelligence, education or ability.
> Its that I don't care as an end user. Why? Because I have over 1000 hour
> of reliable trouble free I-VR experience and my plane is wired so if it does
> fail, the chance of causing harm to me or the airframe is S000OOOooo
> remote, I can accept it (without a crow bar) using a CB, manually opened.
>
> **With more operational experience of others WE have improved OUR
> installation and OUR operational philosophy. My rule is essentially wire
> and operate the alternator as if it where in the vehicle it was designed for.
> I have some additional recommendations, below as a PS.
>
>
> **Here are the top of the line CB's for the B-lead disconnect:
> http://www.ti.com/snc/products/controls/acb-6752-12.htm
> http://www.ti.com/snc/products/controls/acb-6752-1xx.htm
>
>
> **If you want to look over Nippondenso or Motorola's REAL engineers
> who designed the thing in the first place, go for it. I CAN'T tell you how
> they design and make an IC chip, like an Intel Pentium chip, but I know
> how to write an e-mail and call them and ask how it works. I know the
> general theory of semiconductors and silicon wafers, but I don't need to
> know everything about every IC to use a computer or alternator. I think
> the engineers at these companies know a thing or two about testing Bob.
>
>
> **I will concede and leave the REAL engineering to you. Good luck. I
> suggest you pick up the phone and start to ask people who manufacture
> the stuff. They may be able to guide you in a direction that will further
> your knowledge. IF YOU DON'T TRY YOU WILL LEARN NOTHING.
>
>
> **If you have any questions on how the I-VR work and not all the blaaa
> blaaa, just ask me Mr. Bob N. I'll try to help you like I help anyone who
> has a genuine I-VR question or concern. Again THIS IS NOT about can you,
> should you, pros and cons or the I-VR verses E-VR. This is just for
> people who USE the gosh darn I-VR. Once YOU understand WE ARE
> GOING TO USE IT NO MATTER WHAT YOU SAY, than it'll get
> easier for you Bob. Help or get out of the way Sir.
>
>
> **Bob, please stop asking irrelevant questions for 99.9% of us, the users
> of I-VR. We don't want stories or guesses either. The more we talk about
> installation issues and REAL operational characteristics the better we will
> understand how they work. Does B&C publish the internal design for
> YOUR voltage regulator by the way? If so I want a copy. Single point failure?
>
>
> **As far as COLD temp characteristics, THIS IS INTERESTING. This is
> a real world field TEST. I never operated in these temps. So the point,
> is this a NORMAL operating characteristics?; Next time anyone fly's
> in fringed weather, sees a delay in charge or no charge until a specific
> RPM, we know what's going on, good or bad. THAT IS IMPORTANT
> and PRACTICAL. Bob, you have to think like a PILOT more on
> operational issues, than just the esoterica of an electrical system.
>
> **All the other personal stuff and REAL engineer comments are pointless,
> Sparky. :-) I respect your position, I just think it adds no real value unless
> you are going to get the first certified I-VR. Being experimental DON'T CARE.
>
>
> **Take Care George (you owe me a book btw)
>
>
> **PS some of my personal rules for installing and using a I-VR
> alternator: Besides wiring and using the alternator as if it where installed
> in the vehicle it was designed for, I recommend cooling air on the VR, no
> continuous duty over 75% and pullable CB on panel for B-lead. Also
> check or replace brushes every 200 to 500 hours. (I think they cost $1.95
> each.) Be sure to use the warning light and remote voltage sense IF IT
> HAS ONE. NOT ALL ND alternators have remote sense. Vans 14684
> does NOT have remote volt sense. Also don't screw with turning the
> alternator ON/OFF while its turning under load. WHY? Because every
> guy I know of that does this seems to have problems and it DOES NOT
> work that way in a Toyota or Geo Metro. THIS IS NOT ROCKET
> SCEINCE. Last and I know this makes Bob mad, don't put an OV relay
> and crow-bar unless you are darn sure it will not trip unnecessarily. Since
> nuisance trips are hard to guarantee against, I would not do it at all, but
> that is an individual choice. ALL manuals for ND alternator installation
> say DO NOT operate the alternator with out the battery connected to the
> battery. (sorry Paul). An OV relay does just that and can damage the
> alternator. Its fine if you actually have an OV, but the chance of a OV that
> you can't fix by manual opening of the CB is REAL slim, if you follow basics.
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 21
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Subject: | Re: Strange alternator behavior at Startup (BobN) |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Steve Thomas <lists@stevet.net>
Ron,
This tirade is typical of jmcjetpilot and has been going on for some
time. I don't know where Bob gets the patience. I love good,
productive banter and disagreement. I've been hoping for a new tone
from this poster for too long. I'm not even involved in the
discussion and I've finally had enough and have come to the
conclusion that a new mail filter is going into my mail client that
transfers mail from this poster directly to the trash. It's just not
worth the time.
On Mar 1, 2006, at 3:14 PM, Ron Shannon wrote:
> I'm new to this list, but... the tone of the message below is, IMHO,
> appalling. Surely this list is not the place for such hyperbolic
> personal attacks. May I also respectfully suggest, gmcpilot, you are a
> little presumptuous to claim to speak for "WE builders". You don't
> speak
> for me.
>
> Please lighten up, and keep to technical discussion, without all the
> personal invective. That's why most of us subscribe. Thanks.
>
> Ron
Best Regards,
Steve
Message 22
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Subject: | Re: Strange alternator behavior at Startup (BobN) |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ron Shannon <rshannon@cruzcom.com>
Steve,
Understood, and agreed. Nothing wrong with robust debate, and I too
favor erring on the side of openness and inclusion of wide-ranging
expression. But as you say, simple common courtesy requires _some_
limits. No doubt, we would all do well to review the policies Matronics
provides for congenial usage of these fine lists, which do address
appropriate online behavior.
We now return to our regularly scheduled programming -- all about them
@$%&@# LED's, alternators, and crowbar thingys! ;-)
Ron
Steve Thomas wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Steve Thomas <lists@stevet.net>
>
> Ron,
>
> This tirade is typical of jmcjetpilot and has been going on for some
> time. I don't know where Bob gets the patience. I love good,
> productive banter and disagreement. I've been hoping for a new tone
> from this poster for too long. I'm not even involved in the
> discussion and I've finally had enough and have come to the
> conclusion that a new mail filter is going into my mail client that
> transfers mail from this poster directly to the trash. It's just not
> worth the time.
>
>
> On Mar 1, 2006, at 3:14 PM, Ron Shannon wrote:
>
>
>>I'm new to this list, but... the tone of the message below is, IMHO,
>>appalling. Surely this list is not the place for such hyperbolic
>>personal attacks. May I also respectfully suggest, gmcpilot, you are a
>>little presumptuous to claim to speak for "WE builders". You don't
>>speak
>>for me.
>>
>>Please lighten up, and keep to technical discussion, without all the
>>personal invective. That's why most of us subscribe. Thanks.
>>
>>Ron
Message 23
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rodney Dunham" <rdunhamtn@hotmail.com>
George,
You wrote, "Bob we have fundamental and philosophical differences."
Yeah, like Bob is sane, polite and a great teacher. You are a snivelling,
pedantic, psychotic twit!*
And, "This is not a debate about I-VR Vs. E-VR, engineers or
spec sheets."
Yep, you're right, in point of fact, it's not a debate AT ALL when you get
to the keyboard. Stop already! Get your own group to moderate! But give US
all a break! We're over you! You don't represent US at all so don't presume.
We're here to hear from Bob and each other. Get over yourself!
Rodney
*For those in the crowd enamored with alphabet soup after a man's name, mine
ends in MD, which just MIGHT make the above a PROFESSIONAL opinion!
PLEEEEEEEEASE DO NOT ARCHIVE!!!
Message 24
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "William Slaughter" <willslau@alumni.rice.edu>
Amen, Rodney.
George, please go find another place to play. Bob has contributed
immeasurably to my practical knowledge and understanding of electrical
systems, you, not so much. I am really tired of your vitriol, as I
expect are many others.
William
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Rodney Dunham
Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 7:27 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: George
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rodney Dunham"
--> <rdunhamtn@hotmail.com>
George,
You wrote, "Bob we have fundamental and philosophical differences."
Yeah, like Bob is sane, polite and a great teacher. You are a
snivelling,
pedantic, psychotic twit!*
And, "This is not a debate about I-VR Vs. E-VR, engineers or spec
sheets."
Yep, you're right, in point of fact, it's not a debate AT ALL when you
get
to the keyboard. Stop already! Get your own group to moderate! But give
US
all a break! We're over you! You don't represent US at all so don't
presume.
We're here to hear from Bob and each other. Get over yourself!
Rodney
*For those in the crowd enamored with alphabet soup after a man's name,
mine
ends in MD, which just MIGHT make the above a PROFESSIONAL opinion!
PLEEEEEEEEASE DO NOT ARCHIVE!!!
Message 25
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|
Subject: | FAA Lighting requirements link |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Bill Czygan <bczygan@yahoo.com>
You guys probably already have a copy of the FAA requirements for
lighting distribution. But for those that don't, here's a link:
http://home.comcast.net/~czy/Anticollision_lights.pdf
Bill Czygan
Message 26
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|
Subject: | Bob Hoover Air Show] |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Earl_Schroeder <Earl_Schroeder@juno.com>
Fasten your seat belts people.
*WOW...quite a performance by the famous pilot Bob Hoover. *
**
*Click here: *http://youtube.com/watch?v=vQpVI_aldB0&search=aircraft
<http://youtube.com/watch?v=vQpVI_aldB0&search=aircraft>
**
*A*
Message 27
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Subject: | Re: FAA Lighting requirements link |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Bill Dube <william.p.dube@noaa.gov>
Here are the relevant sections of the FAR:
http://www.flightsimaviation.com/data/FARS/part_23-1385.html
http://www.flightsimaviation.com/data/FARS/part_23-1387.html
http://www.flightsimaviation.com/data/FARS/part_23-1389.html
http://www.flightsimaviation.com/data/FARS/part_23-1391.html
http://www.flightsimaviation.com/data/FARS/part_23-1393.html
http://www.flightsimaviation.com/data/FARS/part_23-1395.html
http://www.flightsimaviation.com/data/FARS/part_23-1397.html
For anti-collision lights
http://www.flightsimaviation.com/data/FARS/part_23-1401.html
LED position lights (especially the tail light) can have a tough time
meeting 23.1391 though 23.1395. You have to fill the complete pattern
with at least the candlepower specified. Many folks just stick some LEDs
on the wingtips and figure it "looks good" without ever actually
measuring the light output at all angles.
I used a computer model to design my lights so they would give
proper coverage with the optimum number of LEDs. It was not at all a
simple task.
Bill Dube'
Bill Czygan wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Bill Czygan <bczygan@yahoo.com>
>
>You guys probably already have a copy of the FAA requirements for
>lighting distribution. But for those that don't, here's a link:
>
> http://home.comcast.net/~czy/Anticollision_lights.pdf
>
> Bill Czygan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 28
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|
Subject: | Seminar in Bloomington, IL |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
We've finalized an agreement to do a weekend seminar in EAA
Chapter 129's hangar on the 4/5th of November in Bloomington,
Illinois. Details at:
http://aeroelectric.com/seminars/Bloomington.html
Bob . . .
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
Message 29
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|
Subject: | Re: dampening circuit request |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
> YABI (Yet Another Brilliant Idea)... :)
>
> Attach fittings for tubing in the top and bottom of the tank. Mount the
> sensor to the _outside_ of the tank at the proper level. Attach a tee to
> the sensor, and run tubing from each side of the tee to the fittings on
> the top and bottom of the tank. Put restrictions in the tubing to damp
> fluid flow past the sensor the as necessary.
That is a good one. Since I have not installed the NPT bung (flange)
for the sensor, what I could do is build a little slosh tank onto
the bung before I have it welded in. That would keep things a bit
more stable until Bob comes out with his electronic solution. :-)
Thanks for the suggestions.
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
do not archive
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Subject: | Official AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
Dear Listers,
Please read over the AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete
AeroElectric-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/AeroElectric-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the AeroElectric-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the AeroElectric-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
AeroElectric-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the AeroElectric-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
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- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
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- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
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space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
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- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
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- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
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- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
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- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
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- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
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- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
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will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
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Subject: | Official AeroElectric-List Frequently Asked Questions |
(FAQ)
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
Dear Listers,
Please read over the AeroElectric-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below.
The
complete AeroElectric-List FAQ including the Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/AeroElectric-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
[ Note: This FAQ was designed to be displayed with a fixed width font such as
Courier. Proportional fonts will cause display formatting errors. ]
This FAQ can also be viewed in HTML online at the following address:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm
************************************************************
******* LIST POLICIES AND FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS *******
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PLEASE READ. This document contains AeroElectric-List policies and information
for new and old subscribers. Understanding the AeroElectric-List policies will
minimize problems for the Administrator, and will help keep the AeroElectric-List
running smoothly for all of us.
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*** How to Subscribe and Unsubscribe ***
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Simply go to the Web Page shown below and enter your email address and
select the List(s) that you wish to subscribe or unsubscribed from. You
may also use the handy "Find" function to determine the exact syntax of
your email address as it is subscribed to the List. Please see the
complete instructions at the top of the Web Page for more information.
The Subscribe/Unsubscribe web page is:
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe
Note that you will receive TWO conformation emails regarding your subsciption
process. The first verifies that your subscription/unsubsciption request
was received, and the second confirms that the process has been completed.
You should receive the first email within a few minutes of your request.
The second conformation will arrive in less than 24 hours. You cannot post
until you receive the second conformation email message.
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*** How to Post a Message ***
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Send an email message to:
aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Your message will be redistributed to everyone currently subscribed
to the List.
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*** SPAM Fighter - You Must be Subscribed to Post ***
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When a new post is received by the system, the From: line of the message
is checked and compared against the current subscription list. If the
email address is found, the message is passed on to the List Processor.
If the email address isn't found in the current list of subscribers, it
is dumped. This serves to very effectively thwart 99% of the SPAM that
gets posted to the Lists.
Remember, however, that the syntax of your email address is very important
with regard to the configuration of your email application such as Outlook
or Eudora. For example, the following two email addresses may be
functionally equivalent, but only one would pass the Matronics Email SPAM
test depending on which was syntax was subscribed to the given List:
smith@machine.domain.com
smith@domain.com
Either email address syntax is alright, just be sure that you configure
your email application to match *exactly* the address you've subscibed to
the List.
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*** Enclosures Stripped Out - Can't Get a Virus From the List ***
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Any enclosures that are posted to the List will automatically be
stripped off, and ONLY the plain/text portion of the message will be
forwarded to the List.
Please configure your Email application to send Plain Text Only, and
disable any "Quoted Printable" or "HTML" encoding whenever possible.
Because enclosures are stripped out of incoming posts to the List,
the likelihood of getting a virus from the List is extremely small.
If you do receive a message that appears to be from the List, and it
does include a virus, it is very likely that it was sent *directly*
to you from someone on the List who has a virus. This is a specific
kind of virus, and you should try to inform the sender, if possible.
The best protection against viruses is a good virus protection program
such as Norton Antivirus. State of the art in virus protection today's
world gives maximum protection with little or no negative impact on
the computer system. You can't afford to be without a good virus
protection program these days.
Note that some limited enclosure posting is now enabled on a number
of Lists. Allowed types include .jpg, .gif, .txt, .pdf, .xls, and
a few other similar types.
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*** Digest Mode ***
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Each day, starting at 12 midnight PST US, a new 'digest' will be started.
This digest will contain the same information that is currently appended
to the archive file. It has all of the headers except for the "From:"
and "Subject:" lines removed, and includes a message separator consisting
of a line of underscores.
Each day at 23:55 PST US, the day's messages as described above will be
combined and sent as a single message to everyone on the digest email list.
To subscribe to the digest list, use the same subscription web form
described above, and just select the Digest version of the List.
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe
Note that you *can* be subscribed to both the realtime and digest versions
of the List at the same time. This is perfectly acceptable.
Now some caveats:
* Messages sent to "aeroelectric-list-digest" will be forwarded to the standard
email list. In other words, you cannot post messages only to the
digest List.
* If you are subscribed to both the regular List and the digest List, you
will receive the realtime postings as well as the digest at the end of
the day.
* If you reply to the digest email, your message will be forwarded to the
normal list associated with the digest. Important Note: Please change
the subject line to reflect the topic of your response! Also, please
*do not include all or most of the digest in your reply*.
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*** List Digest Browser ***
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An archive of all the List Digests can be found online in either plain text
or HTML format. These archives contain the exact Digest that was posted to
the Digest email list on the given day. The Digest Archives can be found
at the following location:
http://www.matronics.com/digest
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*** The "DO NOT ARCHIVE" Message Flag ***
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At times, your message may concern something that is revelent only to a very
small number of persons or to a limited area, and you may not wish to archive
it. In such a case, simply put the following phrase anywhere in the
message:
do not archive
Your message will not be appended to the archive, but will be sent to List
email distribution as normal.
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***** READ THIS - Automatic Unsubscribes *****
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Note that if your email address begins to cause problems such as bounced
email, mailbox is filled, or any other errors, your address will be promptly
removed from the List. If you discover that you are no longer receiving
messages from the AeroElectric-List, go to the following Web page, and look
for your email address and a possible reason for your removal.
The Matronics Email List uses utility called the "Email Weasel" that
automatically looks though the day's bounced email for addresses that
caused problems due to common things like "user is unknown", "mailbox
full", etc. If the Email Weasel removes your email address from the
Lists you will find record of it at the following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/unsubscribed
If the problem listed on the web site above has been resolved, please feel
free to resubscribe to the Lists of your choice.
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*** List Member Information ***
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If you have not done so already, please email me your phone numbers and
paper mail address in the following format:
smith@somehost.com
Joe Smith
123 Airport Lane
Tower, CA 91234-1234
098-765-1234 w
123-456-7890 h
Please forward this information to the following email address:
requests@matronics.com
I have a file of such things, that I typically use to contact you when
there are problems with your email address. The information will NOT
be used for any other commercial purpose.
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*** Realtime Web Email List Browsing ***
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Recent messages posted to the AeroElectric-List are also made available on
the Web for realtime browsing. Seven days worth of back postings are
available with this feature. The messages can be sorted by Subject,
Author, Date, or Message Thread. The Realtime List Browser indexes are
updated twice per hour at xx:15 and xx:45. You can also reply to a message
or start a new message directly from the List Browser Interface (coming soon).
You do not have to be subscribed to the given list to use the List
Browser Interface in view-mode.
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
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*** Web Forums Bulletin Board Interface ***
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A phpBB BBS web Forums front end is available for all AeroElectric-List content.
content. The Forums contain all of the same content available via the email
distribution and found on the various archive viewing formats such as the
List Browse, etc. Any posts on the web Forums will be cross posted to the
respective email List, and posts to the Email List will be cross posted to
the web Forums.
You may view all List content on the Forums without any special login.
If you wish to post a message via the Web Forum interface, however, you
will need to Register. This is a simple process that takes only a few
minutes. A link to the Registration page can be found at the top of the
main web Forums page. Note that registering on the Forum web site also
enables you to send email posts to the Lists as well. You will also need to
Subscribe to the respective Email List as described above to receive the
Email Distribution of the List, however.
The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL:
http://forums.matronics.com
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*** List Archives ***
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A file containing of all of the previous postings to the AeroElectric-List is
available on line. The archive file information is available via the
Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below:
* AeroElectric-List.FAQ
- Latest version of the AeroElectric-List Frequently Asked Question
page (this document).
* AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete
- Complete file with most of the email header info removed and
page breaks inserted between messages.
* AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-??
- Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that
can more easily handled.
* AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete.zip
- Same as the AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete file above, but
in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
* AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete.Z
- Same as the AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in
UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
Download Via FTP
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The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com
in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in
a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.)
ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives
Download Via Web
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The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found
toward the bottom of the following web page:
http://www.matronics.com/archives
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*** Complete List Web Archive Browsing ***
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All messages posted to the AeroElectric-List are also available using the
Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages
in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed.
http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?AeroElectric
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**** High-Speed Archive Search Engine ***
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You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine
to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the
List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently
available List archives.
http://www.matronics.com/search
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*** File and Photo Share ***
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With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures
and other data with members of the List without having to forward a
copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email
them to:
pictures@matronics.com
!! ==> Please including the following information with each submission:
1) Email Lists that they are related to.
2) Your Full Name.
3) Your Email Address.
4) One line Subject description.
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic.
6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file
Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned
for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and
photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to
process them every few days.
Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be
sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new
Share is available and what the direct URL to it is.
For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main
Index Page:
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
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*** List Archive CDROM ***
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A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains
all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives
for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search
engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it
and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make
great gifts!
http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM
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*** List Support Contributions ***
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The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members.
You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of
annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages
associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November
I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month,
I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they
are comfortable.
I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the
Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated
by companies that are themselves List members.
Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists
including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server
system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many
many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the
variety of services found here.
Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary
and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains
value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude.
Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just
subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in.
The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are
a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and
sending a personal check.
If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to
support its continued operation?
http://www.matronics.com/contributions
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Email List Administrator
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AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines
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The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the AeroElectric-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the AeroElectric-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
AeroElectric-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the AeroElectric-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
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[This is an automated posting.]
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