---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 03/01/06: 31 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:52 AM - Dynon (LarryRobertHelming) 2. 06:35 AM - Re: Update: Strange alternator behavior at Startup (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 3. 06:35 AM - Re: Back-Up Battery (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 06:39 AM - Re: Ground Power circuit diagram query & suggestion (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 06:43 AM - Re: Re: An Architecture Question - Z13 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 06:51 AM - Re: Re: Update: Strange alternator behavior at Startup (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 06:52 AM - dampening circuit request (Mickey Coggins) 8. 07:37 AM - Re: Re: Update: Strange alternator behavior at Startup (Brian Lloyd) 9. 08:10 AM - Re: dampening circuit request (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 09:05 AM - Re: Re: Mike's LED Position lights (Bill Dube) 11. 09:34 AM - Re: Re: Mike's LED Position lights (Bill Dube) 12. 10:38 AM - Temperature compensation, UMA CHT (Gilles Tatry) 13. 12:14 PM - Re: dampening circuit request (Mickey Coggins) 14. 12:42 PM - Re: dampening circuit request (Mark R Steitle) 15. 01:17 PM - Re: dampening circuit request (Mickey Coggins) 16. 01:28 PM - Re: dampening circuit request (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 17. 02:27 PM - Re: Strange alternator behavior at Startup (BobN) () 18. 02:27 PM - Re: dampening circuit request (Matt Prather) 19. 02:29 PM - Re: dampening circuit request (Matt Prather) 20. 03:17 PM - Re: Re: Strange alternator behavior at Startup (BobN) (Ron Shannon) 21. 04:37 PM - Re: Re: Strange alternator behavior at Startup (BobN) (Steve Thomas) 22. 05:14 PM - Re: Re: Strange alternator behavior at Startup (BobN) (Ron Shannon) 23. 05:28 PM - Re: George (Rodney Dunham) 24. 06:28 PM - Re: Re: George (William Slaughter) 25. 06:33 PM - FAA Lighting requirements link (Bill Czygan) 26. 07:13 PM - Bob Hoover Air Show] (Earl_Schroeder) 27. 07:32 PM - Re: FAA Lighting requirements link (Bill Dube) 28. 09:22 PM - Seminar in Bloomington, IL (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 29. 11:07 PM - Re: dampening circuit request (Mickey Coggins) 30. 11:31 PM - Official AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle) 31. 11:31 PM - Official AeroElectric-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) (Matt Dralle) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:52:02 AM PST US From: "LarryRobertHelming" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Dynon --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming" The Dynon product has an option of a built-in battery backup. It was an option that I felt was unneeded since I was using Bob's e-bus wiring. I realize now that I would like to have a separate battery for this purpose. I'd be interested in knowing if anyone has installed this function using a small external battery. A wiring diagram would be nice. Indiana Larry, RV7 "SunSeeker" 90+ hours flying ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:35:43 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Startup Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Update: Strange alternator behavior at Startup --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Startup At 10:49 PM 2/28/2006 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com > > >In a message dated 2/28/2006 8:02:43 P.M. Central Standard Time, >mstewart@iss.net writes: > >So it would seem that it needs that initial rpm to get the juices >flowing in the cold. >I can live with that. >Thanks to whom ever it was that suggested an initial burst of RPM to get >her going. Worked >Best, >Mike >Do not archive > > >Good Evening Mike, > >Do you really want to give it that short burst of power? > >Personally, I like to warm up the engine at as low an RPM as possible >consistent with adequate oil pressure and any need for the crankshaft to >throw the >oil against the innards of the engine. I do not know what engine you have, >but I would not give it a burst above any RPM that I wanted to use for >warm up >purposes. > >Isn't that the whole idea behind doing a warm up? Absolutely. The behavior noted is NOT what we would generally consider acceptable . . . the "work around" described is functional but it's almost a certainty that this alternator is either deprived of some accommodation that allows it to come up normally at ramp idle -OR- has a design feature that makes it a poor choice for use on aircraft. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:35:43 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Back-Up Battery --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 11:19 PM 2/28/2006 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mitchell Goodrich" > > >Hello All, > >I am installing a back-up battery an would like to monitor >the condition (voltage) w/warning for it. Any ideas on >what to use??? It would help us to know how you intend to install it. Like figure Z-30? There's a product about to be added to our bag of tricks. You can see the data package at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9011/9011-700-1C.pdf It's a two channel low voltage, single channel latching high voltage management module. Designed specifically for generator installations on older airplanes, it's still applicable to a variety of modern applications. One might consider this device for any or all of its functional features. It will cost about the same as the current LVWarn/ABMM module . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9005/9005-701B.pdf but with 3x the functionality. So if you need only one channel of LV warning (to watch your aux battery circuit), you could certainly consider it. If you also found uses for the remaining features, that's icing on the cake. Alternatively, you could craft your own LV warning module by taking advantage of the ready-to-stuff etched circuit board and fabrication package offered at: http://aeroelectric.com/articles/lvwarn/LVWarn-ABMM.html and . . http://aeroelectric.com/articles/lvwarn/9021-620.pdf Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:39:52 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" suggestion Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ground Power circuit diagram query & suggestion --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" suggestion At 01:23 AM 3/1/2006 +0000, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Andy" > > >Hi Bob, >I don't understand the need for a push-to-test lamp in your Low Cost >Ground Power circuit (rev C 07/21/05). >Surely it would provide a more useful function if it were a regular lamp >directly connected to ground, therefore providing either; >(a) a warning of presence of a ground power source, or; >(b) a warning that the switch/breaker for ground power contactor is >still closed (where the ground power contactor is held closed by ship's >battery). This function seems important since the contactor takes >nearly a Amp to maintain. > >Either of those without having to press a button to find out. Since you >need some ground power-side volts to light it anyway, it will normally >be off AND "un-testable". >Better still, you could use a bi-colour LED, with GREEN for correct >polarity and RED for inverted (help save a contactor diode if you >reverse-connect the leads to the 4x4) > >My 1st post & just getting my head round all the issues, so excuse me if >I missed something obvious. Looking forward to the book arriving >tomorrow. Certainly there are variations on the theme that provide alternative flavors of functionality. The architecture cited was crafted based on a customer's request for a hurry up kit for a ground power jack, my experience with ground power on aircraft and what was in my inventory of components at the time. You can certainly modify as you see fit. The important thing is that you UNDERSTAND how the end product is going to work and that features and performance are acceptable to you as the systems designer and user. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:43:39 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE: An Architecture Question - Z13 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 11:38 PM 2/28/2006 -0800, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Scott" > > > What caused you to believe that a 60/20 combination of engine > > driven power sources was the most useful/practical? What operational > > consideration raises questions in the ability of one of the Z-figures > > to handle as presently configured? > >Can't speak for Todd, but my thought pattern which arrived at a point >similar to his was: >I know that my alternator can't quite keep up with everything on while >taxing at relatively low RPM. A little extra help would be nice. I'd also >like to give the standby a little exercise as a way to ensure it's running. >If it's always in standby it would be easy for it to fail and not be noticed >-- until it was needed. A bigger alternator doesn't automatically translate into more snort at low rpm. If your modern, light weight alternator is installed like B&C's with the stock 2.5" pulley then you should be able to get nearly full output at taxi RPMs. Alternator sizing should be a function of your load analysis for various cruising flight conditions. A 60/20 combo is REALLY big, expensive and heavy comparted to 40/8. I'm not suggesting you'll never need such capability, only that I'm skeptical of most builder's plans to install this system without also having evaluated system requirements in detail. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:51:42 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" at Startup Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE: Update: Strange alternator behavior at Startup --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" at Startup At 07:18 AM 2/28/2006 -0800, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd > > >Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > > > > At 07:01 AM 2/28/2006 -0500, you wrote: > > > >> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" > >> > >> > >> Oh. > >> Well that is very interesting Brian. Could it be that my IGN wire is > >> dead? > >> I have the IGN with voltage applied before cranking (I think. I have not > >> checked it since initial install) and I have an idiot light installed > >> which does work as expected. I will check that IGN wire next time I have > >> the cowl off to verify it is supplying power before cranking. Based on > >> your note below, it is quite possible the IGN wire is doing nothing. > >> Wonder why temperature is at play though. > >> > >> Ill check it and report back. > > > > Brian, have you been holding out on us? > >Uh, no. I thought this was common knowledge about IR alternators. Just yanking your chain my friend. We do know that SOME alternators under SOME conditions will come up self excited and that this feature is incidental to the system design requirements. After some thought about this thread, I'm almost convinced that there's something amiss with the system cited. It should snap to attention within seconds of startup and at ordinary idle/taxi RPM levels. > > I've not been aware of > > any automotive products that would ultimately self-excite at > > any time interval or speed conditions. An interesting phenomenon to > > contemplate. > >Almost every IR alternator I have played with exhibits this characteristic. > >Now it may be that new ones have no residual magnetism in the field >armature and therefore cannot self excite. OTOH, *I* have not run into >one that would not self excite once you turned it fast enough. Good data point. Since I've never attempted to utilize this capability in a design, I've never explored the feature in practice. > > > > Just last year I shared the following from my experience with > > the alternators on Bonanzas and Barons: > >Yeah. I just assumed that is how they were supposed to work too. And >just the act of using them for awhile builds up magnetism in the >armature. I suspect that, even if they don't self-excite when brand new, >they will after having been used for several hours. It stands to reason that since the retentivity of ANY magnetic material is never zero, that the ability to self-excite probably exists at SOME RPM even if scary to contemplate. It stands to reason that many examples in the wild will exhibit the behavior at fairly ordinary RPM levels. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:52:51 AM PST US From: Mickey Coggins Subject: AeroElectric-List: dampening circuit request --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins Hi gurus of electrons, As I mentioned in another thread, I want to have a sensor that tells me when my coolant level is too low. I've ordered a Gems Sensors ELS-900, 12 VDC, Dry, 1/4" NPT, $54, part number 205300: http://www.gemssensors.com/SpecTemplateStandard.asp?nProductGroupID=307 which is basically an optical on/off switch when it goes from wet to dry. When the coolant is sloshing around in the tank I suspect that my warning lamp will be flickering on and off. Does anyone know of a very simple way I could "dampen" this so that the warning light will only come on if the sensor goes dry for some period of time? Thanks, Mickey -- Mickey Coggins http://www.rv8.ch/ #82007 finishing ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:37:56 AM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE: Update: Strange alternator behavior at Startup --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd On Mar 1, 2006, at 6:47 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III at Startup wrote: >>> >>> Brian, have you been holding out on us? >> >> Uh, no. I thought this was common knowledge about IR alternators. > > Just yanking your chain my friend. Sorry. I tend to err on the literal side. ;-) > We do know that SOME alternators > under SOME conditions will come up self excited and that this > feature > is incidental to the system design requirements. After some > thought about > this thread, I'm almost convinced that there's something amiss > with > the system cited. It should snap to attention within seconds of > startup and at ordinary idle/taxi RPM levels. My experience with a LOT of alternators at this point is that they need some RPM substantially higher than idle to self-excite. That is why they use a small amount of current from the battery bus to bootstrap them. >> >> Almost every IR alternator I have played with exhibits this >> characteristic. >> >> Now it may be that new ones have no residual magnetism in the field >> armature and therefore cannot self excite. OTOH, *I* have not run >> into >> one that would not self excite once you turned it fast enough. > > Good data point. Since I've never attempted to utilize > this capability in a design, I've never explored the > feature in practice. And I have messed with enough of them to believe this is a common behavior. >>> Just last year I shared the following from my experience with >>> the alternators on Bonanzas and Barons: >> >> Yeah. I just assumed that is how they were supposed to work too. And >> just the act of using them for awhile builds up magnetism in the >> armature. I suspect that, even if they don't self-excite when >> brand new, >> they will after having been used for several hours. > > It stands to reason that since the retentivity of ANY magnetic > material is never zero, that the ability to self-excite probably > exists at SOME RPM even if scary to contemplate. It stands to > reason that many examples in the wild will exhibit the behavior > at fairly ordinary RPM levels. Right. Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630 +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . Antoine de Saint-Exupry ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:10:13 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: dampening circuit request --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 03:52 PM 3/1/2006 +0100, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins > > >Hi gurus of electrons, > >As I mentioned in another thread, I want to have >a sensor that tells me when my coolant level is >too low. > >I've ordered a Gems Sensors ELS-900, 12 VDC, Dry, >1/4" NPT, $54, part number 205300: > >http://www.gemssensors.com/SpecTemplateStandard.asp?nProductGroupID=307 > >which is basically an optical on/off switch when it >goes from wet to dry. When the coolant is sloshing >around in the tank I suspect that my warning lamp >will be flickering on and off. Does anyone know of a >very simple way I could "dampen" this so that the >warning light will only come on if the sensor goes >dry for some period of time? Sure . . . First, a long time-delay (resistor/capacitor) is the simplest but its an integrator of amplitude with time. It prevents a jittering light but will not insure that it never flashes at or during operation at the level transition. Given your particular application, you're not really interested in minute/by/minute interpretation of a level in the tank . . . like for a consumable (fuel). If the level is so low that the light comes on even once, then and investigation and remedy is called for. What may work best for you is a latching circuit. A small relay with holding contacts rigged so that once actuated, the light stays on until reset (momentary power down). The 9011 module I've cited in other posts will be re-incarnated as a low fuel warning for tanks with floats. The presence of a microcontroller allows us to craft warning protocols where the light doesn't come on until the float voltage is at or below the trip point for say 50% or more of the last 30 seconds. After that, the light stays on until the voltage is above the trip point for say 100% of the last two minutes. This would offer slosh filtering and precise, no hesitation operation of the warning lights. As you might guess, the options and approaches to solution are great in number. What is your vision of the elegant solution? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:05:13 AM PST US From: Bill Dube Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Mike's LED Position lights --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Bill Dube Gladly! http://www.killacycle.com/Lights.htm Peter Laurence wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Peter Laurence" > > > My LED position lights put out more than what the FAA requires in >all directions, and they are less expensive than any other LED position >light on the market (some of which do not put out the light required by >the FAA.) > > Bill Dube' > > >Bill, > >Can will you point me to your web site? > >Peter > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:34:20 AM PST US From: Bill Dube Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Mike's LED Position lights --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Bill Dube Lloyd, Daniel R. wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Lloyd, Daniel R." > >On their website all of the new version III's and V's all have spec >sheets with Lumen ratings and the appropriate charts to determine >viewing angles, and with more than 80% intensity over 140 degree >spectrum, it would be very easy to get the required fill rate of light >that the FAA requires, and with shaped reflectors, you can even cut off >the angles. Using fog lights from walmart($15) and replacing the halogen >bulbs with 4 Luxeons ($30), plus the power supply ($25) easily meets and >exceeds the requirements for much less money than you would think. > Just my .02 >Dan >RV10 > > The FAA requires specific candlepower in specific directions. (It only makes sense to do so.) Lumens don't give you candlepower directly. You can't calculate the candlepower with the information they provide. Once you buy one, and measure the candlepower, you realize that you can produce that same candlepower using several, much less expensive, 5 mm LEDs. Bill Dube' ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:38:26 AM PST US From: "Gilles Tatry" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Temperature compensation, UMA CHT --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Gilles Tatry" Hi Bob, Please find hereafter Jean-Pierre's analysis of my CHT compensation issue. He got the instrument, did some bench testing, and proposes an interface architecture as follows. Any comment? Gilles ----- Original Message ----- From: "CASTIELLO, Jean-pierre" Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 3:56 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Temperature compensation, UMA CHT Gilles, here are some pictures of the CHT instrument. There are 3 boards: - input wiring, overvoltage protection(I guess ); - signal conditionning; - air core indicator amplifier, that has 4 wires: 2 power (red and black), and 2 signal (white and blue). The idea is to design an interface to be input to the air core amplifier, with minimum modifications to the unit, so that back is always possible ( a bird in hand is worth ten in the bush ...). I did some measurements on the unit in order to find the gain and offset that the new interface should have. I found the signal on the white wire on the air core amplifier (blue one is still unknown to me, unless I do some reverse engineering on the signal conditionning board, ) Measured voltage at this point: for a 50C display -> 2.27V 150C -> 3.615V 280C -> 5.425VC So this is an offset of 1.6V and a gain of 13.5mV / C I do not know about the input voltage right at the connector because I was not in a type J TC configuration and the corresponding voltage was meaningless. The complete excel file is available. Anyway the display seems to be linear and an AD594 amplifier followed by some op-amp to compensate for gain and offset should do. Jean-Pierre ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 12:14:57 PM PST US From: Mickey Coggins Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: dampening circuit request --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins Bob, Thanks for your suggestions. > First, a long time-delay (resistor/capacitor) > is the simplest but its an integrator of amplitude > with time. It prevents a jittering light but will > not insure that it never flashes at or during > operation at the level transition. I'm not sure I understand what you've written here. If I have 300cc in my 500cc tank, and I set the sensor at about the 100cc level, then a bit of sloshing should not cause the light to flicker. However, if the level gets to about 150cc or below, I might see flickering. Is that what you are saying? > Given your particular application, you're not really > interested in minute/by/minute interpretation of a > level in the tank . . . like for a consumable (fuel). Exactly. > If the level is so low that the light comes on even > once, then and investigation and remedy is called for. > What may work best for you is a latching circuit. > A small relay with holding contacts rigged so that > once actuated, the light stays on until reset (momentary > power down). This would be fine as long as I can be reasonably sure it is not a false alarm. > The 9011 module I've cited in other posts will be > re-incarnated as a low fuel warning for tanks with > floats. The presence of a microcontroller allows us > to craft warning protocols where the light doesn't > come on until the float voltage is at or below the > trip point for say 50% or more of the last 30 seconds. > After that, the light stays on until the voltage is > above the trip point for say 100% of the last two > minutes. That sounds perfect! > This would offer slosh filtering and precise, no > hesitation operation of the warning lights. > > As you might guess, the options and approaches > to solution are great in number. What is your vision > of the elegant solution? What you describe above sounds great, in terms of function. I have no idea what kind of packaging would be required for the microprocessor, but obviously the smaller the better! Perhaps if the 9011 solution is a ways down the road, you could tell me how to hook up the previously mentioned simple solution with the resister/capacitor. No hurry on this - I've got the wires run and I can add in the necessary bits and pieces later. Many thanks, Mickey -- Mickey Coggins http://www.rv8.ch/ #82007 finishing ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 12:42:21 PM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: dampening circuit request From: "Mark R Steitle" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark R Steitle" Mickey, A low-tech way to accomplish this would be to use an anti-slosh baffle inside the tank to dampen out the waves. Admittedly, this solution isn't as exciting. Mark Steitle -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mickey Coggins Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 2:11 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: dampening circuit request --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins Bob, Thanks for your suggestions. > First, a long time-delay (resistor/capacitor) > is the simplest but its an integrator of amplitude > with time. It prevents a jittering light but will > not insure that it never flashes at or during > operation at the level transition. I'm not sure I understand what you've written here. If I have 300cc in my 500cc tank, and I set the sensor at about the 100cc level, then a bit of sloshing should not cause the light to flicker. However, if the level gets to about 150cc or below, I might see flickering. Is that what you are saying? > Given your particular application, you're not really > interested in minute/by/minute interpretation of a > level in the tank . . . like for a consumable (fuel). Exactly. > If the level is so low that the light comes on even > once, then and investigation and remedy is called for. > What may work best for you is a latching circuit. > A small relay with holding contacts rigged so that > once actuated, the light stays on until reset (momentary > power down). This would be fine as long as I can be reasonably sure it is not a false alarm. > The 9011 module I've cited in other posts will be > re-incarnated as a low fuel warning for tanks with > floats. The presence of a microcontroller allows us > to craft warning protocols where the light doesn't > come on until the float voltage is at or below the > trip point for say 50% or more of the last 30 seconds. > After that, the light stays on until the voltage is > above the trip point for say 100% of the last two > minutes. That sounds perfect! > This would offer slosh filtering and precise, no > hesitation operation of the warning lights. > > As you might guess, the options and approaches > to solution are great in number. What is your vision > of the elegant solution? What you describe above sounds great, in terms of function. I have no idea what kind of packaging would be required for the microprocessor, but obviously the smaller the better! Perhaps if the 9011 solution is a ways down the road, you could tell me how to hook up the previously mentioned simple solution with the resister/capacitor. No hurry on this - I've got the wires run and I can add in the necessary bits and pieces later. Many thanks, Mickey -- Mickey Coggins http://www.rv8.ch/ #82007 finishing ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 01:17:57 PM PST US From: Mickey Coggins Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: dampening circuit request --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins > A low-tech way to accomplish this would be to use an anti-slosh baffle > inside the tank to dampen out the waves. Admittedly, this solution > isn't as exciting. Hi Mark, I would have liked to do this, but the tank is already built. I didn't consider getting a baffle put in when I designed the tank, and it would cost me another $250 for a new tank. When I get the sensor, I'm going to look to see if it would be possible to slip something over the sensor before I screw it into the tank. It's only a 1/4" NPT fitting, so I don't have a lot of room. Thanks for the suggestion! Mickey -- Mickey Coggins http://www.rv8.ch/ #82007 finishing do not archive ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 01:28:53 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: dampening circuit request --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 09:10 PM 3/1/2006 +0100, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins > > >Bob, Thanks for your suggestions. > > > First, a long time-delay (resistor/capacitor) > > is the simplest but its an integrator of amplitude > > with time. It prevents a jittering light but will > > not insure that it never flashes at or during > > operation at the level transition. > >I'm not sure I understand what you've written here. > >If I have 300cc in my 500cc tank, and I set >the sensor at about the 100cc level, then >a bit of sloshing should not cause the light >to flicker. However, if the level gets to >about 150cc or below, I might see flickering. >Is that what you are saying? Yes . . . or even 110cc or 120cc etc. The closer you get to the "calibrated" switch point, the more likely you are to get periodic false lights. However, if you see ANY light for even a transient condition at say 150cc (1/2 normal) then there has been an observable loss of liquid. It seems immaterial whether the real average level = 100cc calibrated or 150cc and produces transient trips. In this case, the latching circuit is easy to implement and does the job. > > Given your particular application, you're not really > > interested in minute/by/minute interpretation of a > > level in the tank . . . like for a consumable (fuel). > >Exactly. > > > If the level is so low that the light comes on even > > once, then and investigation and remedy is called for. > > What may work best for you is a latching circuit. > > A small relay with holding contacts rigged so that > > once actuated, the light stays on until reset (momentary > > power down). > >This would be fine as long as I can be reasonably sure >it is not a false alarm. > > > The 9011 module I've cited in other posts will be > > re-incarnated as a low fuel warning for tanks with > > floats. The presence of a microcontroller allows us > > to craft warning protocols where the light doesn't > > come on until the float voltage is at or below the > > trip point for say 50% or more of the last 30 seconds. > > After that, the light stays on until the voltage is > > above the trip point for say 100% of the last two > > minutes. > >That sounds perfect! > > > This would offer slosh filtering and precise, no > > hesitation operation of the warning lights. > > > > As you might guess, the options and approaches > > to solution are great in number. What is your vision > > of the elegant solution? > >What you describe above sounds great, in terms of >function. I have no idea what kind of packaging >would be required for the microprocessor, but >obviously the smaller the better! > >Perhaps if the 9011 solution is a ways down the road, >you could tell me how to hook up the previously mentioned >simple solution with the resister/capacitor. No hurry >on this - I've got the wires run and I can add >in the necessary bits and pieces later. The 9011 exists right now. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9011/9011-700-1C.pdf This could be re-programmed and offered with a variety of capabilities controlled by software. The package shown is going to house perhaps a dozen new products on the drawing board. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 02:27:24 PM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Strange alternator behavior at Startup (BobN) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: >>From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" nuckollsr@cox.net >>Subject: Re: Strange alternator behavior at Startup (BobN) > AeroElectric-List message posted by: > > Bob, most of what you wrote has nothing to do with the topic? > > It is not a debate of IF you should use a I-VR alternator, but I will >try to address you question, fully knowing you will never be >satisfied. >>Bob N wrote >>If they have understanding to offer, the block diagrams, >>schematics, test results, etc are in order. That's what I offer and I >>expect no less. >> > Just call them Bob. What's the big deal? >>Bob you provide a wealth of knowledge and experience. I think >>we all can say is of immense help and enjoyment to us amateur >>airplane electricians. Your help to airplane builders in garages >>and hangers world over is with out dispute. Even if I don't agree >>with you, that does not mean I don't understand your point or >>disrespect your accomplishments. >>You can't have it both ways George. If my experience and >>accomplishments have value, then there must be some useful >>application of tools and philosophies upon which those >>accomplishments are based. In one breath you extol the >>virtues of those accomplishments, and in the next you brush >>my opinion aside because it does not agree with the one you >>formed by calling folks on the phone. I talk to lots of people >>and I read lots of data sheets but these are STARTING places . . . >>I asked you to help explain the inner workings of an exemplar >>regulator with a goal of seeing if advertising hype (and the opinions >>of those you talked to on the phone) have foundation in physics >>and simple-ideas. **Bob we have fundamental and philosophical differences. You want to know the esoteric. I on the other hand want to understand how to install and operate internally regulated ND alternator by looking at real world operational issues, we all can learn from. When I say WE, I mean I-VR alternator users. This is not a debate about I-VR Vs. E-VR, engineers or spec sheets. **Only you know what you want to know. A true scientist is unbiased. You are a smart guy; go figure it out. Get an aftermarket ND I-VR; They can cost $15-$25. Buy one and test it. Better yet go to the auto store and buy lester 14684 (aka Vans Alt). Test it. You seem to ask questions for questions sake. If you read what I have written, than you know how I recommend to install and use an I-VR. If you want to verify spec sheets, knock yourself out. DO IT, but stop talking about it. **You always talk about testing, but you rarely do what you say you are going to do. I can't count how many times you said, I am going to test such and such, but your test data never materializes? Just do the research yourself and stop asking me. OK, thanks. :-) We are all counting on U. **Some how to make a point, you ask questions that people can not or need not really answer (to your liking). It's a waste of time. USE DATA WE HAVE. Trust it or don't trust it, that's your business. The rest of us want to go fly and learn from other users of alternators with I-VR's. **The data you want, IF YOU REALLY WANT IT, is out there. I think you are just blowing smoke Bob. A true scientist or engineer does not need to be spoon fed info but goes out and gets it. Go get it Bob. >>After sorting out the sand in data sheets, it's a good idea >>to hit lab and RUN the thing. It's not common but I've discovered >>things about people's products that they had no understanding >>of (and we didn't either until after a few $hundred thousands$ >>went down the tubes in warranty work). **Agreed, you are smart, spec sheets can be wrong. So? **Let me tell you where WE, us homebuilders are coming from. WE want to fly, be safe and have fun. We want a good, inexpensive, reliable, easily installed alternator that can be replaced anywhere in the country cheaply with a visit to a local AUTOPART store. Not a custom, esoteric single source supplier specialty item (B&C). I LOVE that you want to know the nitty-gritty of a spec sheet verses the real world. GREAT! U-Da-Man! ** **Go get'em Bob. My apathy is not born of ignorance but practicality. Practically speaking it has worked in my plane and others for 10,000's of hours with no problem. It has also worked in MILLION'S of cars trucks and industrial equipment all over the works for over two decades. Test all you want. I don't need to test a wheel to see if it will roll. I do want to learn what the best tire pressure is so I can put fill it properly for best service.** ****I understand there are unknowns of the I-VR, but those unknowns are falling fast as WE, I-VR users talk and compare notes. Understanding the advantages of the I-VR as well as the limitations is critical. OK. In the past much IGNORANCE was stated as fact on this list, most if it negative and faults. This is so anti-scientific I could puke. I am not saying the I- VR is perfect, the greatest thing since sliced bread BUT lets get real. THERE ARE REAL ADVANTAGES INSIDE THE I-VR AND IN USING THEM. The whole industry of small alternators has gone to I-VR.***** **Lets, understand the real characteristics of the I-VR for airplane operations, instead of lies & exaggerated OV tales. Understanding the different ways they might fail and the symptoms prior to failure is what we NEED. Details about a schematic or how engineers don't know what they are doing is NOT important, except to you Mr. Bob N. You have a crusade that you campaign. You also are VERY biased. It gets in the way of being the teacher, engineer and scientist you fancy yourself as. I still like you Bob, but you really have PO'ed a few people with this attitude that WE need to prove things to YOU. Take it or leave it, but leave it alone if you do not want to pursue it. Prove that is NOT that way. Sue me. **That is not what WE want. I am sorry. I can't give you the knowledge you seek oh wise one, this is a journey you must walk alone Sparky. **This is not a big deal; Its an alternator. NO BIGGIE. There are millions and millions of these ND alternators all over the world working famously. They can't be all bad. They DO IN FACT HAVE control and logic functions. I guess if you want to know the info, it's there. Asking me a billion times will not change the fact I-VR have some real advantage over E-VR's. Sorry Bob, Sorry B&C. >>Real engineering (and teaching) can be accomplished only when >>the activities are supported by an understanding and artful >>assemblage of simple-ideas. If you choose to drive your career >>and tutelage based on telephone conversations and faithful >>acceptance of bang-for-the-buck-bullets on data sheets, it's >>your choice - but not mine. What you have accepted and now >>promote as FACT has yet to be demonstrated. >> >>I'll publish the MC33092 trade study to show others on the list >>how the most successful engineering is conducted. By the way, >>"work product" is anything which you have created. The trade >>study will be my work product based on the products of others >>offered as a potential guide for the future efforts of still >>more folks. That's what engineers do George . . . make sure >>all the bits and pieces fit smoothly into the whole. >> >>Bob . . . **Bob N: Sorry, all I got from your above is blaaa blaaa, real engineer, blaaa, blaaa blaaa, bang-for-the-buck-bullets, blaaa, blaaa , career and tutelage, blaaa, blaaa blaaa. Whisky Tango Foxtrot! Focus, focus focus Bob! Stick to the topic, for once. ** I know you are trying to tell me how important this is to you. I BELIEVE YOU. However my apathy is not for lack of intelligence, education or ability. Its that I don't care as an end user. Why? Because I have over 1000 hour of reliable trouble free I-VR experience and my plane is wired so if it does fail, the chance of causing harm to me or the airframe is S000OOOooo remote, I can accept it (without a crow bar) using a CB, manually opened. **With more operational experience of others WE have improved OUR installation and OUR operational philosophy. My rule is essentially wire and operate the alternator as if it where in the vehicle it was designed for. I have some additional recommendations, below as a PS. **Here are the top of the line CB's for the B-lead disconnect: http://www.ti.com/snc/products/controls/acb-6752-12.htm http://www.ti.com/snc/products/controls/acb-6752-1xx.htm **If you want to look over Nippondenso or Motorola's REAL engineers who designed the thing in the first place, go for it. I CAN'T tell you how they design and make an IC chip, like an Intel Pentium chip, but I know how to write an e-mail and call them and ask how it works. I know the general theory of semiconductors and silicon wafers, but I don't need to know everything about every IC to use a computer or alternator. I think the engineers at these companies know a thing or two about testing Bob. **I will concede and leave the REAL engineering to you. Good luck. I suggest you pick up the phone and start to ask people who manufacture the stuff. They may be able to guide you in a direction that will further your knowledge. IF YOU DON'T TRY YOU WILL LEARN NOTHING. **If you have any questions on how the I-VR work and not all the blaaa blaaa, just ask me Mr. Bob N. I'll try to help you like I help anyone who has a genuine I-VR question or concern. Again THIS IS NOT about can you, should you, pros and cons or the I-VR verses E-VR. This is just for people who USE the gosh darn I-VR. Once YOU understand WE ARE GOING TO USE IT NO MATTER WHAT YOU SAY, than it'll get easier for you Bob. Help or get out of the way Sir. **Bob, please stop asking irrelevant questions for 99.9% of us, the users of I-VR. We don't want stories or guesses either. The more we talk about installation issues and REAL operational characteristics the better we will understand how they work. Does B&C publish the internal design for YOUR voltage regulator by the way? If so I want a copy. Single point failure? **As far as COLD temp characteristics, THIS IS INTERESTING. This is a real world field TEST. I never operated in these temps. So the point, is this a NORMAL operating characteristics?; Next time anyone fly's in fringed weather, sees a delay in charge or no charge until a specific RPM, we know what's going on, good or bad. THAT IS IMPORTANT and PRACTICAL. Bob, you have to think like a PILOT more on operational issues, than just the esoterica of an electrical system. **All the other personal stuff and REAL engineer comments are pointless, Sparky. :-) I respect your position, I just think it adds no real value unless you are going to get the first certified I-VR. Being experimental DON'T CARE. **Take Care George (you owe me a book btw) **PS some of my personal rules for installing and using a I-VR alternator: Besides wiring and using the alternator as if it where installed in the vehicle it was designed for, I recommend cooling air on the VR, no continuous duty over 75% and pullable CB on panel for B-lead. Also check or replace brushes every 200 to 500 hours. (I think they cost $1.95 each.) Be sure to use the warning light and remote voltage sense IF IT HAS ONE. NOT ALL ND alternators have remote sense. Vans 14684 does NOT have remote volt sense. Also don't screw with turning the alternator ON/OFF while its turning under load. WHY? Because every guy I know of that does this seems to have problems and it DOES NOT work that way in a Toyota or Geo Metro. THIS IS NOT ROCKET SCEINCE. Last and I know this makes Bob mad, don't put an OV relay and crow-bar unless you are darn sure it will not trip unnecessarily. Since nuisance trips are hard to guarantee against, I would not do it at all, but that is an individual choice. ALL manuals for ND alternator installation say DO NOT operate the alternator with out the battery connected to the battery. (sorry Paul). An OV relay does just that and can damage the alternator. Its fine if you actually have an OV, but the chance of a OV that you can't fix by manual opening of the CB is REAL slim, if you follow basics. --------------------------------- Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze. ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 02:27:25 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: dampening circuit request From: "Matt Prather" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" I think I actually like the 'flicker' effect associated with being right on the edge of min capacity. If the volume in the tank is dropping slowly, then the flickering will start very intermittently, gradually grow more frequent, then finally the light will stay on continuously. If, however, the level is dropping rapidly (developed serious leak), then the light will go from always off to always on very quickly - indicating that landing as soon as possible is the best bet. Procedurally, check the level in the system prior to starting the engine and make the go-no-go level significantly higher than the sensor level. Then, if the light turns on while on a flight of normal length, you _know_ you have a leak. Matt- > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > > At 09:10 PM 3/1/2006 +0100, you wrote: > >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins >> >> >>Bob, Thanks for your suggestions. >> >> > First, a long time-delay (resistor/capacitor) >> > is the simplest but its an integrator of amplitude >> > with time. It prevents a jittering light but will >> > not insure that it never flashes at or during >> > operation at the level transition. >> >>I'm not sure I understand what you've written here. >> >>If I have 300cc in my 500cc tank, and I set >>the sensor at about the 100cc level, then >>a bit of sloshing should not cause the light >>to flicker. However, if the level gets to >>about 150cc or below, I might see flickering. >>Is that what you are saying? > > Yes . . . or even 110cc or 120cc etc. The closer > you get to the "calibrated" switch point, the more > likely you are to get periodic false lights. However, > if you see ANY light for even a transient condition > at say 150cc (1/2 normal) then there has been an > observable loss of liquid. It seems immaterial whether > the real average level = 100cc calibrated or 150cc > and produces transient trips. In this case, the latching > circuit is easy to implement and does the job. > > >> > Given your particular application, you're not really >> > interested in minute/by/minute interpretation of a >> > level in the tank . . . like for a consumable (fuel). >> >>Exactly. >> >> > If the level is so low that the light comes on even >> > once, then and investigation and remedy is called for. >> > What may work best for you is a latching circuit. >> > A small relay with holding contacts rigged so that >> > once actuated, the light stays on until reset (momentary >> > power down). >> >>This would be fine as long as I can be reasonably sure >>it is not a false alarm. >> >> > The 9011 module I've cited in other posts will be >> > re-incarnated as a low fuel warning for tanks with >> > floats. The presence of a microcontroller allows us >> > to craft warning protocols where the light doesn't >> > come on until the float voltage is at or below the >> > trip point for say 50% or more of the last 30 seconds. >> > After that, the light stays on until the voltage is >> > above the trip point for say 100% of the last two >> > minutes. >> >>That sounds perfect! >> >> > This would offer slosh filtering and precise, no >> > hesitation operation of the warning lights. >> > >> > As you might guess, the options and approaches >> > to solution are great in number. What is your vision >> > of the elegant solution? >> >>What you describe above sounds great, in terms of >>function. I have no idea what kind of packaging >>would be required for the microprocessor, but >>obviously the smaller the better! >> >>Perhaps if the 9011 solution is a ways down the road, >>you could tell me how to hook up the previously mentioned >>simple solution with the resister/capacitor. No hurry >>on this - I've got the wires run and I can add >>in the necessary bits and pieces later. > > The 9011 exists right now. See: > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9011/9011-700-1C.pdf > > This could be re-programmed and offered with a variety > of capabilities controlled by software. The package > shown is going to house perhaps a dozen new products on > the drawing board. > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 02:29:27 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: dampening circuit request From: "Matt Prather" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" YABI (Yet Another Brilliant Idea)... :) Attach fittings for tubing in the top and bottom of the tank. Mount the sensor to the _outside_ of the tank at the proper level. Attach a tee to the sensor, and run tubing from each side of the tee to the fittings on the top and bottom of the tank. Put restrictions in the tubing to damp fluid flow past the sensor the as necessary. Matt- > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins > > >> A low-tech way to accomplish this would be to use an anti-slosh baffle >> inside the tank to dampen out the waves. Admittedly, this solution >> isn't as exciting. > > Hi Mark, > > I would have liked to do this, but the tank is already > built. I didn't consider getting a baffle put in > when I designed the tank, and it would cost me another > $250 for a new tank. > > When I get the sensor, I'm going to look to see if it > would be possible to slip something over the sensor > before I screw it into the tank. It's only a 1/4" > NPT fitting, so I don't have a lot of room. > > Thanks for the suggestion! > > Mickey > > > -- > Mickey Coggins > http://www.rv8.ch/ > #82007 finishing > > > do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 03:17:31 PM PST US From: Ron Shannon Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Strange alternator behavior at Startup (BobN) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ron Shannon I'm new to this list, but... the tone of the message below is, IMHO, appalling. Surely this list is not the place for such hyperbolic personal attacks. May I also respectfully suggest, gmcpilot, you are a little presumptuous to claim to speak for "WE builders". You don't speak for me. Please lighten up, and keep to technical discussion, without all the personal invective. That's why most of us subscribe. Thanks. Ron gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: > >>>From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" nuckollsr@cox.net >>>Subject: Re: Strange alternator behavior at Startup (BobN) > > > > >>AeroElectric-List message posted by: >> >>Bob, most of what you wrote has nothing to do with the topic? >> >>It is not a debate of IF you should use a I-VR alternator, but I will >>try to address you question, fully knowing you will never be >>satisfied. > > > >>>Bob N wrote >>>If they have understanding to offer, the block diagrams, >>>schematics, test results, etc are in order. That's what I offer and I >>>expect no less. >>> > > > >> Just call them Bob. What's the big deal? > > > >>Bob you provide a wealth of knowledge and experience. I think > >>>we all can say is of immense help and enjoyment to us amateur >>>airplane electricians. Your help to airplane builders in garages >>>and hangers world over is with out dispute. Even if I don't agree >>>with you, that does not mean I don't understand your point or >>>disrespect your accomplishments. > > >>You can't have it both ways George. If my experience and > >>>accomplishments have value, then there must be some useful >>>application of tools and philosophies upon which those >>>accomplishments are based. In one breath you extol the >>>virtues of those accomplishments, and in the next you brush >>>my opinion aside because it does not agree with the one you >>>formed by calling folks on the phone. I talk to lots of people >>>and I read lots of data sheets but these are STARTING places . . . > > > >>>I asked you to help explain the inner workings of an exemplar >>>regulator with a goal of seeing if advertising hype (and the opinions >>>of those you talked to on the phone) have foundation in physics >>>and simple-ideas. > > > > **Bob we have fundamental and philosophical differences. You want to > know the esoteric. I on the other hand want to understand how to install > and operate internally regulated ND alternator by looking at real world > operational issues, we all can learn from. When I say WE, I mean I-VR > alternator users. This is not a debate about I-VR Vs. E-VR, engineers or > spec sheets. > > **Only you know what you want to know. A true scientist is unbiased. > You are a smart guy; go figure it out. Get an aftermarket ND I-VR; They > can cost $15-$25. Buy one and test it. Better yet go to the auto store and > buy lester 14684 (aka Vans Alt). Test it. You seem to ask questions for > questions sake. If you read what I have written, than you know how I > recommend to install and use an I-VR. If you want to verify spec sheets, > knock yourself out. DO IT, but stop talking about it. > > **You always talk about testing, but you rarely do what you say you > are going to do. I can't count how many times you said, I am going to test > such and such, but your test data never materializes? Just do the research > yourself and stop asking me. OK, thanks. :-) We are all counting on U. > > **Some how to make a point, you ask questions that people can not or > need not really answer (to your liking). It's a waste of time. USE DATA > WE HAVE. Trust it or don't trust it, that's your business. The rest of us > want to go fly and learn from other users of alternators with I-VR's. > > **The data you want, IF YOU REALLY WANT IT, is out there. I think you > are just blowing smoke Bob. A true scientist or engineer does not need to > be spoon fed info but goes out and gets it. Go get it Bob. > > >>>After sorting out the sand in data sheets, it's a good idea >>>to hit lab and RUN the thing. It's not common but I've discovered >>>things about people's products that they had no understanding >>>of (and we didn't either until after a few $hundred thousands$ >>>went down the tubes in warranty work). > > > **Agreed, you are smart, spec sheets can be wrong. So? > > > **Let me tell you where WE, us homebuilders are coming from. WE > want to fly, be safe and have fun. We want a good, inexpensive, reliable, > easily installed alternator that can be replaced anywhere in the country > cheaply with a visit to a local AUTOPART store. Not a custom, esoteric > single source supplier specialty item (B&C). I LOVE that you want to know > the nitty-gritty of a spec sheet verses the real world. GREAT! U-Da-Man! ** > > > > **Go get'em Bob. My apathy is not born of ignorance but practicality. > Practically speaking it has worked in my plane and others for 10,000's of > hours with no problem. It has also worked in MILLION'S of cars trucks > and industrial equipment all over the works for over two decades. Test all > you want. I don't need to test a wheel to see if it will roll. I do want to learn > what the best tire pressure is so I can put fill it properly for best service.** > > > ****I understand there are unknowns of the I-VR, but those unknowns are > falling fast as WE, I-VR users talk and compare notes. Understanding the > advantages of the I-VR as well as the limitations is critical. OK. In the > past much IGNORANCE was stated as fact on this list, most if it negative > and faults. This is so anti-scientific I could puke. I am not saying the I- > VR is perfect, the greatest thing since sliced bread BUT lets get real. > THERE ARE REAL ADVANTAGES INSIDE THE I-VR AND IN USING > THEM. The whole industry of small alternators has gone to I-VR.***** > > > > **Lets, understand the real characteristics of the I-VR for airplane > operations, instead of lies & exaggerated OV tales. Understanding the > different ways they might fail and the symptoms prior to failure is what we > NEED. Details about a schematic or how engineers don't know what they > are doing is NOT important, except to you Mr. Bob N. You have a > crusade that you campaign. You also are VERY biased. It gets in the way > of being the teacher, engineer and scientist you fancy yourself as. I still > like you Bob, but you really have PO'ed a few people with this attitude > that WE need to prove things to YOU. Take it or leave it, but leave it alone > if you do not want to pursue it. Prove that is NOT that way. Sue me. > > > **That is not what WE want. I am sorry. I can't give you the knowledge > you seek oh wise one, this is a journey you must walk alone Sparky. > > > **This is not a big deal; Its an alternator. NO BIGGIE. There are millions > and millions of these ND alternators all over the world working famously. > They can't be all bad. They DO IN FACT HAVE control and logic > functions. I guess if you want to know the info, it's there. Asking me a > billion times will not change the fact I-VR have some real advantage over > E-VR's. Sorry Bob, Sorry B&C. > > > >>Real engineering (and teaching) can be accomplished only when > >>>the activities are supported by an understanding and artful >>>assemblage of simple-ideas. If you choose to drive your career >>>and tutelage based on telephone conversations and faithful >>>acceptance of bang-for-the-buck-bullets on data sheets, it's >>>your choice - but not mine. What you have accepted and now >>>promote as FACT has yet to be demonstrated. >>> >>>I'll publish the MC33092 trade study to show others on the list >>>how the most successful engineering is conducted. By the way, >>>"work product" is anything which you have created. The trade >>>study will be my work product based on the products of others >>>offered as a potential guide for the future efforts of still >>>more folks. That's what engineers do George . . . make sure >>>all the bits and pieces fit smoothly into the whole. >>> >>>Bob . . . > > > > **Bob N: Sorry, all I got from your above is blaaa blaaa, real engineer, > blaaa, blaaa blaaa, bang-for-the-buck-bullets, blaaa, blaaa , career and > tutelage, blaaa, blaaa blaaa. Whisky Tango Foxtrot! Focus, focus focus > Bob! Stick to the topic, for once. > > > ** I know you are trying to tell me how important this is to you. I BELIEVE > YOU. However my apathy is not for lack of intelligence, education or ability. > Its that I don't care as an end user. Why? Because I have over 1000 hour > of reliable trouble free I-VR experience and my plane is wired so if it does > fail, the chance of causing harm to me or the airframe is S000OOOooo > remote, I can accept it (without a crow bar) using a CB, manually opened. > > **With more operational experience of others WE have improved OUR > installation and OUR operational philosophy. My rule is essentially wire > and operate the alternator as if it where in the vehicle it was designed for. > I have some additional recommendations, below as a PS. > > > **Here are the top of the line CB's for the B-lead disconnect: > http://www.ti.com/snc/products/controls/acb-6752-12.htm > http://www.ti.com/snc/products/controls/acb-6752-1xx.htm > > > **If you want to look over Nippondenso or Motorola's REAL engineers > who designed the thing in the first place, go for it. I CAN'T tell you how > they design and make an IC chip, like an Intel Pentium chip, but I know > how to write an e-mail and call them and ask how it works. I know the > general theory of semiconductors and silicon wafers, but I don't need to > know everything about every IC to use a computer or alternator. I think > the engineers at these companies know a thing or two about testing Bob. > > > **I will concede and leave the REAL engineering to you. Good luck. I > suggest you pick up the phone and start to ask people who manufacture > the stuff. They may be able to guide you in a direction that will further > your knowledge. IF YOU DON'T TRY YOU WILL LEARN NOTHING. > > > **If you have any questions on how the I-VR work and not all the blaaa > blaaa, just ask me Mr. Bob N. I'll try to help you like I help anyone who > has a genuine I-VR question or concern. Again THIS IS NOT about can you, > should you, pros and cons or the I-VR verses E-VR. This is just for > people who USE the gosh darn I-VR. Once YOU understand WE ARE > GOING TO USE IT NO MATTER WHAT YOU SAY, than it'll get > easier for you Bob. Help or get out of the way Sir. > > > **Bob, please stop asking irrelevant questions for 99.9% of us, the users > of I-VR. We don't want stories or guesses either. The more we talk about > installation issues and REAL operational characteristics the better we will > understand how they work. Does B&C publish the internal design for > YOUR voltage regulator by the way? If so I want a copy. Single point failure? > > > **As far as COLD temp characteristics, THIS IS INTERESTING. This is > a real world field TEST. I never operated in these temps. So the point, > is this a NORMAL operating characteristics?; Next time anyone fly's > in fringed weather, sees a delay in charge or no charge until a specific > RPM, we know what's going on, good or bad. THAT IS IMPORTANT > and PRACTICAL. Bob, you have to think like a PILOT more on > operational issues, than just the esoterica of an electrical system. > > **All the other personal stuff and REAL engineer comments are pointless, > Sparky. :-) I respect your position, I just think it adds no real value unless > you are going to get the first certified I-VR. Being experimental DON'T CARE. > > > **Take Care George (you owe me a book btw) > > > **PS some of my personal rules for installing and using a I-VR > alternator: Besides wiring and using the alternator as if it where installed > in the vehicle it was designed for, I recommend cooling air on the VR, no > continuous duty over 75% and pullable CB on panel for B-lead. Also > check or replace brushes every 200 to 500 hours. (I think they cost $1.95 > each.) Be sure to use the warning light and remote voltage sense IF IT > HAS ONE. NOT ALL ND alternators have remote sense. Vans 14684 > does NOT have remote volt sense. Also don't screw with turning the > alternator ON/OFF while its turning under load. WHY? Because every > guy I know of that does this seems to have problems and it DOES NOT > work that way in a Toyota or Geo Metro. THIS IS NOT ROCKET > SCEINCE. Last and I know this makes Bob mad, don't put an OV relay > and crow-bar unless you are darn sure it will not trip unnecessarily. Since > nuisance trips are hard to guarantee against, I would not do it at all, but > that is an individual choice. ALL manuals for ND alternator installation > say DO NOT operate the alternator with out the battery connected to the > battery. (sorry Paul). An OV relay does just that and can damage the > alternator. Its fine if you actually have an OV, but the chance of a OV that > you can't fix by manual opening of the CB is REAL slim, if you follow basics. > > > > > --------------------------------- > Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze. > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 04:37:28 PM PST US From: Steve Thomas Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Strange alternator behavior at Startup (BobN) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Steve Thomas Ron, This tirade is typical of jmcjetpilot and has been going on for some time. I don't know where Bob gets the patience. I love good, productive banter and disagreement. I've been hoping for a new tone from this poster for too long. I'm not even involved in the discussion and I've finally had enough and have come to the conclusion that a new mail filter is going into my mail client that transfers mail from this poster directly to the trash. It's just not worth the time. On Mar 1, 2006, at 3:14 PM, Ron Shannon wrote: > I'm new to this list, but... the tone of the message below is, IMHO, > appalling. Surely this list is not the place for such hyperbolic > personal attacks. May I also respectfully suggest, gmcpilot, you are a > little presumptuous to claim to speak for "WE builders". You don't > speak > for me. > > Please lighten up, and keep to technical discussion, without all the > personal invective. That's why most of us subscribe. Thanks. > > Ron Best Regards, Steve ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 05:14:14 PM PST US From: Ron Shannon Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Strange alternator behavior at Startup (BobN) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ron Shannon Steve, Understood, and agreed. Nothing wrong with robust debate, and I too favor erring on the side of openness and inclusion of wide-ranging expression. But as you say, simple common courtesy requires _some_ limits. No doubt, we would all do well to review the policies Matronics provides for congenial usage of these fine lists, which do address appropriate online behavior. We now return to our regularly scheduled programming -- all about them @$%&@# LED's, alternators, and crowbar thingys! ;-) Ron Steve Thomas wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Steve Thomas > > Ron, > > This tirade is typical of jmcjetpilot and has been going on for some > time. I don't know where Bob gets the patience. I love good, > productive banter and disagreement. I've been hoping for a new tone > from this poster for too long. I'm not even involved in the > discussion and I've finally had enough and have come to the > conclusion that a new mail filter is going into my mail client that > transfers mail from this poster directly to the trash. It's just not > worth the time. > > > On Mar 1, 2006, at 3:14 PM, Ron Shannon wrote: > > >>I'm new to this list, but... the tone of the message below is, IMHO, >>appalling. Surely this list is not the place for such hyperbolic >>personal attacks. May I also respectfully suggest, gmcpilot, you are a >>little presumptuous to claim to speak for "WE builders". You don't >>speak >>for me. >> >>Please lighten up, and keep to technical discussion, without all the >>personal invective. That's why most of us subscribe. Thanks. >> >>Ron ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 05:28:24 PM PST US From: "Rodney Dunham" Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: George --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rodney Dunham" George, You wrote, "Bob we have fundamental and philosophical differences." Yeah, like Bob is sane, polite and a great teacher. You are a snivelling, pedantic, psychotic twit!* And, "This is not a debate about I-VR Vs. E-VR, engineers or spec sheets." Yep, you're right, in point of fact, it's not a debate AT ALL when you get to the keyboard. Stop already! Get your own group to moderate! But give US all a break! We're over you! You don't represent US at all so don't presume. We're here to hear from Bob and each other. Get over yourself! Rodney *For those in the crowd enamored with alphabet soup after a man's name, mine ends in MD, which just MIGHT make the above a PROFESSIONAL opinion! PLEEEEEEEEASE DO NOT ARCHIVE!!! ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 06:28:09 PM PST US From: "William Slaughter" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RE: George --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "William Slaughter" Amen, Rodney. George, please go find another place to play. Bob has contributed immeasurably to my practical knowledge and understanding of electrical systems, you, not so much. I am really tired of your vitriol, as I expect are many others. William -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rodney Dunham Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 7:27 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: George --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rodney Dunham" --> George, You wrote, "Bob we have fundamental and philosophical differences." Yeah, like Bob is sane, polite and a great teacher. You are a snivelling, pedantic, psychotic twit!* And, "This is not a debate about I-VR Vs. E-VR, engineers or spec sheets." Yep, you're right, in point of fact, it's not a debate AT ALL when you get to the keyboard. Stop already! Get your own group to moderate! But give US all a break! We're over you! You don't represent US at all so don't presume. We're here to hear from Bob and each other. Get over yourself! Rodney *For those in the crowd enamored with alphabet soup after a man's name, mine ends in MD, which just MIGHT make the above a PROFESSIONAL opinion! PLEEEEEEEEASE DO NOT ARCHIVE!!! ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 06:33:08 PM PST US From: Bill Czygan Subject: AeroElectric-List: FAA Lighting requirements link --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Bill Czygan You guys probably already have a copy of the FAA requirements for lighting distribution. But for those that don't, here's a link: http://home.comcast.net/~czy/Anticollision_lights.pdf Bill Czygan ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 07:13:31 PM PST US From: Earl_Schroeder Subject: AeroElectric-List: Bob Hoover Air Show] --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Earl_Schroeder Fasten your seat belts people. *WOW...quite a performance by the famous pilot Bob Hoover. * ** *Click here: *http://youtube.com/watch?v=vQpVI_aldB0&search=aircraft ** *A* ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 07:32:51 PM PST US From: Bill Dube Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: FAA Lighting requirements link --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Bill Dube Here are the relevant sections of the FAR: http://www.flightsimaviation.com/data/FARS/part_23-1385.html http://www.flightsimaviation.com/data/FARS/part_23-1387.html http://www.flightsimaviation.com/data/FARS/part_23-1389.html http://www.flightsimaviation.com/data/FARS/part_23-1391.html http://www.flightsimaviation.com/data/FARS/part_23-1393.html http://www.flightsimaviation.com/data/FARS/part_23-1395.html http://www.flightsimaviation.com/data/FARS/part_23-1397.html For anti-collision lights http://www.flightsimaviation.com/data/FARS/part_23-1401.html LED position lights (especially the tail light) can have a tough time meeting 23.1391 though 23.1395. You have to fill the complete pattern with at least the candlepower specified. Many folks just stick some LEDs on the wingtips and figure it "looks good" without ever actually measuring the light output at all angles. I used a computer model to design my lights so they would give proper coverage with the optimum number of LEDs. It was not at all a simple task. Bill Dube' Bill Czygan wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Bill Czygan > >You guys probably already have a copy of the FAA requirements for >lighting distribution. But for those that don't, here's a link: > > http://home.comcast.net/~czy/Anticollision_lights.pdf > > Bill Czygan > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 09:22:53 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Seminar in Bloomington, IL --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" We've finalized an agreement to do a weekend seminar in EAA Chapter 129's hangar on the 4/5th of November in Bloomington, Illinois. Details at: http://aeroelectric.com/seminars/Bloomington.html Bob . . . < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 11:07:26 PM PST US From: Mickey Coggins Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: dampening circuit request --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins > YABI (Yet Another Brilliant Idea)... :) > > Attach fittings for tubing in the top and bottom of the tank. Mount the > sensor to the _outside_ of the tank at the proper level. Attach a tee to > the sensor, and run tubing from each side of the tee to the fittings on > the top and bottom of the tank. Put restrictions in the tubing to damp > fluid flow past the sensor the as necessary. That is a good one. Since I have not installed the NPT bung (flange) for the sensor, what I could do is build a little slosh tank onto the bung before I have it welded in. That would keep things a bit more stable until Bob comes out with his electronic solution. :-) Thanks for the suggestions. -- Mickey Coggins http://www.rv8.ch/ #82007 finishing do not archive ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 11:31:46 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: AeroElectric-List: Official AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Matt Dralle Dear Listers, Please read over the AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete AeroElectric-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/AeroElectric-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the AeroElectric-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the AeroElectric-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. AeroElectric-List Policy Statement The purpose of the AeroElectric-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 11:31:51 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: AeroElectric-List: Official AeroElectric-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Matt Dralle Dear Listers, Please read over the AeroElectric-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below. The complete AeroElectric-List FAQ including the Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/AeroElectric-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator [ Note: This FAQ was designed to be displayed with a fixed width font such as Courier. Proportional fonts will cause display formatting errors. ] This FAQ can also be viewed in HTML online at the following address: http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm ************************************************************ ******* LIST POLICIES AND FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ******* ************************************************************ PLEASE READ. This document contains AeroElectric-List policies and information for new and old subscribers. Understanding the AeroElectric-List policies will minimize problems for the Administrator, and will help keep the AeroElectric-List running smoothly for all of us. **************************************** *** How to Subscribe and Unsubscribe *** **************************************** Simply go to the Web Page shown below and enter your email address and select the List(s) that you wish to subscribe or unsubscribed from. You may also use the handy "Find" function to determine the exact syntax of your email address as it is subscribed to the List. Please see the complete instructions at the top of the Web Page for more information. The Subscribe/Unsubscribe web page is: http://www.matronics.com/subscribe Note that you will receive TWO conformation emails regarding your subsciption process. The first verifies that your subscription/unsubsciption request was received, and the second confirms that the process has been completed. You should receive the first email within a few minutes of your request. The second conformation will arrive in less than 24 hours. 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Remember, however, that the syntax of your email address is very important with regard to the configuration of your email application such as Outlook or Eudora. For example, the following two email addresses may be functionally equivalent, but only one would pass the Matronics Email SPAM test depending on which was syntax was subscribed to the given List: smith@machine.domain.com smith@domain.com Either email address syntax is alright, just be sure that you configure your email application to match *exactly* the address you've subscibed to the List. ***************************************************************** *** Enclosures Stripped Out - Can't Get a Virus From the List *** ***************************************************************** Any enclosures that are posted to the List will automatically be stripped off, and ONLY the plain/text portion of the message will be forwarded to the List. Please configure your Email application to send Plain Text Only, and disable any "Quoted Printable" or "HTML" encoding whenever possible. Because enclosures are stripped out of incoming posts to the List, the likelihood of getting a virus from the List is extremely small. If you do receive a message that appears to be from the List, and it does include a virus, it is very likely that it was sent *directly* to you from someone on the List who has a virus. This is a specific kind of virus, and you should try to inform the sender, if possible. The best protection against viruses is a good virus protection program such as Norton Antivirus. State of the art in virus protection today's world gives maximum protection with little or no negative impact on the computer system. You can't afford to be without a good virus protection program these days. Note that some limited enclosure posting is now enabled on a number of Lists. Allowed types include .jpg, .gif, .txt, .pdf, .xls, and a few other similar types. ******************* *** Digest Mode *** ******************* Each day, starting at 12 midnight PST US, a new 'digest' will be started. This digest will contain the same information that is currently appended to the archive file. It has all of the headers except for the "From:" and "Subject:" lines removed, and includes a message separator consisting of a line of underscores. Each day at 23:55 PST US, the day's messages as described above will be combined and sent as a single message to everyone on the digest email list. To subscribe to the digest list, use the same subscription web form described above, and just select the Digest version of the List. http://www.matronics.com/subscribe Note that you *can* be subscribed to both the realtime and digest versions of the List at the same time. This is perfectly acceptable. Now some caveats: * Messages sent to "aeroelectric-list-digest" will be forwarded to the standard email list. In other words, you cannot post messages only to the digest List. * If you are subscribed to both the regular List and the digest List, you will receive the realtime postings as well as the digest at the end of the day. * If you reply to the digest email, your message will be forwarded to the normal list associated with the digest. Important Note: Please change the subject line to reflect the topic of your response! Also, please *do not include all or most of the digest in your reply*. **************************** *** List Digest Browser *** **************************** An archive of all the List Digests can be found online in either plain text or HTML format. These archives contain the exact Digest that was posted to the Digest email list on the given day. The Digest Archives can be found at the following location: http://www.matronics.com/digest ***************************************** *** The "DO NOT ARCHIVE" Message Flag *** ***************************************** At times, your message may concern something that is revelent only to a very small number of persons or to a limited area, and you may not wish to archive it. In such a case, simply put the following phrase anywhere in the message: do not archive Your message will not be appended to the archive, but will be sent to List email distribution as normal. ********************************************** ***** READ THIS - Automatic Unsubscribes ***** ********************************************** Note that if your email address begins to cause problems such as bounced email, mailbox is filled, or any other errors, your address will be promptly removed from the List. 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The Matronics Email List uses utility called the "Email Weasel" that automatically looks though the day's bounced email for addresses that caused problems due to common things like "user is unknown", "mailbox full", etc. If the Email Weasel removes your email address from the Lists you will find record of it at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/unsubscribed If the problem listed on the web site above has been resolved, please feel free to resubscribe to the Lists of your choice. ******************************* *** List Member Information *** ******************************* If you have not done so already, please email me your phone numbers and paper mail address in the following format: smith@somehost.com Joe Smith 123 Airport Lane Tower, CA 91234-1234 098-765-1234 w 123-456-7890 h Please forward this information to the following email address: requests@matronics.com I have a file of such things, that I typically use to contact you when there are problems with your email address. The information will NOT be used for any other commercial purpose. **************************************** *** Realtime Web Email List Browsing *** **************************************** Recent messages posted to the AeroElectric-List are also made available on the Web for realtime browsing. Seven days worth of back postings are available with this feature. The messages can be sorted by Subject, Author, Date, or Message Thread. The Realtime List Browser indexes are updated twice per hour at xx:15 and xx:45. You can also reply to a message or start a new message directly from the List Browser Interface (coming soon). 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Note that registering on the Forum web site also enables you to send email posts to the Lists as well. You will also need to Subscribe to the respective Email List as described above to receive the Email Distribution of the List, however. The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL: http://forums.matronics.com ********************* *** List Archives *** ********************* A file containing of all of the previous postings to the AeroElectric-List is available on line. The archive file information is available via the Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below: * AeroElectric-List.FAQ - Latest version of the AeroElectric-List Frequently Asked Question page (this document). * AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete - Complete file with most of the email header info removed and page breaks inserted between messages. * AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-?? - Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that can more easily handled. * AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete.zip - Same as the AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. * AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete.Z - Same as the AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. Download Via FTP ---------------- The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.) ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives Download Via Web ---------------- The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found toward the bottom of the following web page: http://www.matronics.com/archives ****************************************** *** Complete List Web Archive Browsing *** ****************************************** All messages posted to the AeroElectric-List are also available using the Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed. http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?AeroElectric ***************************************** **** High-Speed Archive Search Engine *** ***************************************** You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently available List archives. http://www.matronics.com/search **************************** *** File and Photo Share *** **************************** With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures and other data with members of the List without having to forward a copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email them to: pictures@matronics.com !! ==> Please including the following information with each submission: 1) Email Lists that they are related to. 2) Your Full Name. 3) Your Email Address. 4) One line Subject description. 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic. 6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to process them every few days. Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new Share is available and what the direct URL to it is. For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main Index Page: http://www.matronics.com/photoshare ************************** *** List Archive CDROM *** ************************** A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make great gifts! http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM ********************************** *** List Support Contributions *** ********************************** The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members. You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month, I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they are comfortable. I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated by companies that are themselves List members. Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the variety of services found here. Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude. Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in. The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and sending a personal check. If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to support its continued operation? http://www.matronics.com/contributions Thank you! Matt Dralle Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the AeroElectric-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the AeroElectric-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. AeroElectric-List Policy Statement The purpose of the AeroElectric-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.]