---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 03/08/06: 17 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:44 AM - Coolie hat as pointing device (Gianni Zuliani) 2. 05:43 AM - Re: Coolie hat as pointing device (Dave Morris \) 3. 07:33 AM - Re: Coolie hat as pointing device (Ed Holyoke) 4. 07:53 AM - Re: Coolie hat as pointing device (Mike) 5. 08:02 AM - Heads-up on a double sided adhesive product (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 08:04 AM - Re: Coolie hat as pointing device (Gilles Thesee) 7. 08:12 AM - Re: Heads-up on a double sided adhesive product (sportav8r@aol.com) 8. 09:29 AM - Re: Continuous duty contactor wiring question (Mickey Coggins) 9. 09:36 AM - Re: Heads-up on a double sided adhesive product (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 10:21 AM - Re: Continuous duty contactor wiring question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 11. 12:23 PM - Re: Heads-up on a double sided adhesive product (John Schroeder) 12. 01:53 PM - Re: Coolie hat as pointing device (Harold) 13. 03:10 PM - Re: Continuous duty contactor wiring question (Andrew Rowley) 14. 06:20 PM - Re: Coolie hat as pointing device (Bill Dube) 15. 06:32 PM - Re: Continuous duty contactor wiring question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 16. 06:35 PM - Re: Heads-up on a double sided adhesive product (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 17. 09:29 PM - Re: Re: Heads-up on a double sided adhesive product (George Braly) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:44:24 AM PST US From: "Gianni Zuliani" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Coolie hat as pointing device --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Gianni Zuliani" Hi Bob and Group, On my Stag-Ez I've mounted a tablet PC to show moving maps in sectional format (OziExplorer programs). Although my tablet has got a sensitive display, I would need an easily operable pointing device other than a mouse which is cumbersome to use in the cockpit. To this end, I thought I maybe could use the coolie hat and two buttons (Infinity type) I've got on my stick grip: has someone already studied this possibility and come up with some solution? Thank you. Gianni Zuliani Tel/Fax +41 91 9710850 Mobile +41 79 3373439 Long-Ez >> Stag-Ez >> Stag-EzR http://www.comgz.com/tristar.htm ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:43:55 AM PST US From: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Coolie hat as pointing device --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" Doesn't your tablet PC have a touch screen? When you turn on your radios, do you get noise from the tablet PC? See www.MyGlassCockpit.com for something similar to what you're doing. I have not licked the RFI problem yet. Dave Morris At 02:33 AM 3/8/2006, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Gianni Zuliani" > >Hi Bob and Group, >On my Stag-Ez I've mounted a tablet PC to show moving maps in sectional >format (OziExplorer programs). >Although my tablet has got a sensitive display, I would need an easily >operable pointing device other than a mouse which is cumbersome to use in >the cockpit. >To this end, I thought I maybe could use the coolie hat and two buttons >(Infinity type) I've got on my stick grip: has someone already studied this >possibility and come up with some solution? >Thank you. >Gianni Zuliani >Tel/Fax +41 91 9710850 >Mobile +41 79 3373439 >Long-Ez >> Stag-Ez >> Stag-EzR >http://www.comgz.com/tristar.htm > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:33:27 AM PST US From: "Ed Holyoke" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Coolie hat as pointing device --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ed Holyoke" Here's some ideas: http://www.littlepc.com/keyboards_pointing.htm Pax, Ed Holyoke -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gianni Zuliani Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2006 12:33 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Coolie hat as pointing device --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Gianni Zuliani" Hi Bob and Group, On my Stag-Ez I've mounted a tablet PC to show moving maps in sectional format (OziExplorer programs). Although my tablet has got a sensitive display, I would need an easily operable pointing device other than a mouse which is cumbersome to use in the cockpit. To this end, I thought I maybe could use the coolie hat and two buttons (Infinity type) I've got on my stick grip: has someone already studied this possibility and come up with some solution? Thank you. Gianni Zuliani Tel/Fax +41 91 9710850 Mobile +41 79 3373439 Long-Ez >> Stag-Ez >> Stag-EzR http://www.comgz.com/tristar.htm ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:53:05 AM PST US From: "Mike" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Coolie hat as pointing device --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mike" Go to Comp USA and pickup a flat panel pointing device. We did this on one of our Lancair's with a tablet PC and it worked very well. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ed Holyoke Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2006 8:30 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Coolie hat as pointing device --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ed Holyoke" Here's some ideas: http://www.littlepc.com/keyboards_pointing.htm Pax, Ed Holyoke -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gianni Zuliani Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2006 12:33 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Coolie hat as pointing device --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Gianni Zuliani" Hi Bob and Group, On my Stag-Ez I've mounted a tablet PC to show moving maps in sectional format (OziExplorer programs). Although my tablet has got a sensitive display, I would need an easily operable pointing device other than a mouse which is cumbersome to use in the cockpit. To this end, I thought I maybe could use the coolie hat and two buttons (Infinity type) I've got on my stick grip: has someone already studied this possibility and come up with some solution? Thank you. Gianni Zuliani Tel/Fax +41 91 9710850 Mobile +41 79 3373439 Long-Ez >> Stag-Ez >> Stag-EzR http://www.comgz.com/tristar.htm -- 1/16/2006 -- 1/16/2006 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:02:27 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Heads-up on a double sided adhesive product --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" I'm building some test fixtures for RAC with lots of lights and switches on the front. I like to lay out placards in AutoCAD, print to paper (sometimes colored) and then hot laminate. I've used contact cements for years with good results to attach the placards but I ran across a rather amazing product yesterday that may surpass contact cements and/or other forms of double sided adhesive: Hobby Lobby stocks a stuff called SUPER TACKY Thermoweb. You can find it on E-bay using that search term. I was putting placard down on a panel yesterday and accidently allowed the placard to settle poorly positioned onto the panel. Past experiences with this were no big deal, peel it up and reposition. This stuff grabbed on so hard that I wrinkled the placard trying to get it off. Also, this adhesive is advertised as a thermoset. It may be just the ticket for mounting placards to various places in an airplane. If anyone has a chance to try it on one or more situations, I'd be pleased to know of your experiences with it. I'm stocking it here in the shop and will report any down-sides I discover. I may also do an under-the hood test. I have some blocks of steel that I use to test adhesives in real life. I glue them to the underside of the hood of my van. If they stay put for over a year, I call 'em good for flight too. Bob . . . < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:04:07 AM PST US From: Gilles Thesee Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Coolie hat as pointing device --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee Gianni Zuliani a crit : >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Gianni Zuliani" > >Hi Bob and Group, >On my Stag-Ez I've mounted a tablet PC to show moving maps in sectional >format (OziExplorer programs). >Although my tablet has got a sensitive display, I would need an easily >operable pointing device other than a mouse which is cumbersome to use in >the cockpit. >To this end, I thought I maybe could use the coolie hat and two buttons >(Infinity type) I've got on my stick grip: has someone already studied this >possibility and come up with some solution? > > Gianni, Just wondering, my Dell Latitude laptop has one such little "micro joystick" between the keys in the middle of my keyboard. Don't use it much, but this may be what you're looking for. The day you drop your laptop, just cannibalize it..;-) FWIW, Regards, Gilles Thesee Grenoble, France http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:12:45 AM PST US From: sportav8r@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Heads-up on a double sided adhesive product --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com I glue them to the underside of the hood of my van. If they stay put for over a year, I call 'em good for flight too. Bob . . . And if they come loose, the drivers behind you have an interesting time...? ;-) Good hint. I'll check this product out. I just used a combo of Scotch double-sided foam tape and a perimeter fillet of GOOP to mount Bosch-style ice cube relays to aluminum plate. The bond seems quite sturdy, but it took overnight to achieve. -Bill B. -----Original Message----- From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Wed, 08 Mar 2006 10:00:54 -0600 Subject: AeroElectric-List: Heads-up on a double sided adhesive product --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" I'm building some test fixtures for RAC with lots of lights and switches on the front. I like to lay out placards in AutoCAD, print to paper (sometimes colored) and then hot laminate. I've used contact cements for years with good results to attach the placards but I ran across a rather amazing product yesterday that may surpass contact cements and/or other forms of double sided adhesive: Hobby Lobby stocks a stuff called SUPER TACKY Thermoweb. You can find it on E-bay using that search term. I was putting placard down on a panel yesterday and accidently allowed the placard to settle poorly positioned onto the panel. Past experiences with this were no big deal, peel it up and reposition. This stuff grabbed on so hard that I wrinkled the placard trying to get it off. Also, this adhesive is advertised as a thermoset. It may be just the ticket for mounting placards to various places in an airplane. If anyone has a chance to try it on one or more situations, I'd be pleased to know of your experiences with it. I'm stocking it here in the shop and will report any down-sides I discover. I may also do an under-the hood test. I have some blocks of steel that I use to test adhesives in real life. I glue them to the underside of the hood of my van. If they stay put for over a year, I call 'em good for flight too. Bob . . . < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:29:03 AM PST US From: Mickey Coggins Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Continuous duty contactor wiring question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins > Remember folks, questions like this are ALWAYS > best addressed to the designer/manufacturer > of the product. ... You are right. I was thinking of the product as the contactor, and Eric's product as a switch. In any case, Eric has a nifty product to protect the coils from doing whatever bad thing it is that they do. He calls them "snapjacks", and they do the trick. http://www.periheliondesign.com/suppressors.htm Just an aside - I *really* like doing business with Eric. He makes it easy to buy his stuff (paypal, logical website) and gives me no hassle about shipping international via USPS. Stuff usually arrives three to five days after ordering. Not to mention that he has some cool products! -- Mickey Coggins http://www.rv8.ch/ #82007 finishing ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:36:37 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" product Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Heads-up on a double sided adhesive product --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" product At 11:11 AM 3/8/2006 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com > > I glue them to the underside of the hood of my van. If they >stay put for over a year, I call 'em good for flight >too. > > > Bob . . . > > >And if they come loose, the drivers behind you have an interesting time...? No, there's a tether on the block to keep it from falling out. > >;-) > >Good hint. I'll check this product out. I just used a combo of Scotch >double-sided foam tape and a perimeter fillet of GOOP to mount Bosch-style >ice cube relays to aluminum plate. The bond seems quite sturdy, but it >took overnight to achieve. The GOOP/Sho-Goo/E-6000 products are pretty robust but as you've noted, they're a solvent based adhesive that takes TIME to reach full strength. If you're mounting something as light as a relay, a simple spot of E-6000 will do it. I've tested this. We also used the E-6000 to attach bond studs. http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Products/Bond_Stud_A.jpg The stud shown was installed with JB Weld. It pass the pull tests fine. E-6000 worked too and was easier to use. I'm working on a new source for bond studs. I'll try this thermoset adhesive on them when I get the samples. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:21:31 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" question Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Continuous duty contactor wiring question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" question At 06:25 PM 3/8/2006 +0100, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins > > > > Remember folks, questions like this are ALWAYS > > best addressed to the designer/manufacturer > > of the product. ... > >You are right. I was thinking of the product as >the contactor, and Eric's product as a switch. >In any case, Eric has a nifty product to protect >the coils from doing whatever bad thing it is >that they do. In this case, systems integration issues go beyond the magnetic field collapse in the coils. Folks here on the list have raised legitimate issues with respect to the contactor's ability to reliably open a runaway alternator's output. This has almost nothing to do with the coil circuit and everything to do with contact spreading velocity and ultimate gap (or double gap) distance in the open contactor. If Eric or anyone else has called out this class of contactor as suited to the task when combined with his product, then other folks here on the list are ill prepared to dispute it without an exchange of simple ideas that support (or fail to support) the manufacturer's design decision. Therefore questions going to suitability to task must to start with folks who offer the product. If the simple-ideas don't assemble correctly, others with knowledge and experience can illuminate the errors of logic. Until I'm apprised differently, I can only say that based on objections raised earlier (for which we've seen no test data to the contrary) I am skeptical of this contactor's ability to handle the task (Note 1). I'd be delighted to have that skepticism put to rest but I'm not presently in a position do it myself. Bob . . . Note 1. The "task" is to make/break the b-lead of an alternator under a variety of conditions the most important of which is OV management. If the contactor is expected to be damaged in an OV management event, so be it as long as the event is handled to the benefit of the rest of the airplane's systems. There are less stressful make-break issues too. I would expect anyone who recommends a device for this service to be capable of articulating the capabilities and LIMITS of the system. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:23:01 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Heads-up on a double sided adhesive product From: "John Schroeder" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Schroeder" Bob - You have no idea how useful those studs are/were for our wiring. We used E-6000 and the worked like a charm. Still could use a dozen of them to replace the nylon-zip tie kind. We shaved off the double sided tape on the nylon kind and used E-6000, but they are not as robust as the studs. Let the list know when you get the studs. John Schroeder Lancair ES - Painting complete > The stud shown was installed with JB Weld. It pass the pull > tests fine. E-6000 worked too and was easier to use. > > I'm working on a new source for bond studs. I'll try this > thermoset adhesive on them when I get the samples. > > Bob . . . > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:53:55 PM PST US From: "Harold" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Coolie hat as pointing device --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Harold" Re pointing device, How about a Logitech Track ball, USB plug one hand operation. Thumb moves the ball, index finger left click or wheel, and middle finger right click . I gave up on the notebook touch pad, and this goes where the notebook goes...wouldn't be without it Harold ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:10:40 PM PST US From: Andrew Rowley Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Continuous duty contactor wiring question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Andrew Rowley Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > In this case, systems integration issues go > beyond the magnetic field collapse in the > coils. Folks here on the list have raised > legitimate issues with respect to the contactor's > ability to reliably open a runaway alternator's > output. This has almost nothing to do with > the coil circuit and everything to do with > contact spreading velocity and ultimate gap > (or double gap) distance in the open contactor. Out of curiosity, would a large capacitor across the contactor similar to points ignition help? Or is there too much energy involved for a reasonably sized capacitor to absorb? -- Andrew Rowley ajrow@westnet.com.au ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:20:23 PM PST US From: Bill Dube Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Coolie hat as pointing device --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Bill Dube We use trackballs on our airborne instruments. Other pointing devices are hard to use in turbulent air. Touch pads are nearly impossible to use in rough air. Here is a picture of the instrument that I built a couple of years ago on the NOAA WP3 Hurricane Hunter: http://www.al.noaa.gov/2004/photos/P3/13.jpg Notice the tiny track ball in the corner of the laptop tray. You "left click" by pulling the trigger button with your index finger. It is quite comfortable to work the ball with your thumb. Easy to use in rough air as your thumb moves with your hand and the whole mouse moves with your hand too. Here is a link to the exact "finger" trackball: http://www.sfcable.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=MS4-USB I've seen them for sale at Walmart, but I couldn't find them on their website. I bet you could mount one on top of your control stick. (Be sure to buy a spare. They are not ultra high quality.) We held ours in place with Velcro. You can see how your hand could grip the stick while working the trackball by looking at the picture in the advertisement. Just photoshop a control stick in. :*) Bill Dube' Harold wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Harold" > >Re pointing device, How about a Logitech Track ball, USB plug one hand >operation. > Thumb moves the ball, index finger left click or wheel, and middle finger >right click . >I gave up on the notebook touch pad, and this goes where the notebook >goes...wouldn't be without it >Harold > > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:32:39 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" question Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Continuous duty contactor wiring question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" question At 10:05 AM 3/9/2006 +1100, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Andrew Rowley > >Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > In this case, systems integration issues go > > beyond the magnetic field collapse in the > > coils. Folks here on the list have raised > > legitimate issues with respect to the contactor's > > ability to reliably open a runaway alternator's > > output. This has almost nothing to do with > > the coil circuit and everything to do with > > contact spreading velocity and ultimate gap > > (or double gap) distance in the open contactor. > >Out of curiosity, would a large capacitor across the contactor similar >to points ignition help? Or is there too much energy involved for a >reasonably sized capacitor to absorb? Excellent question! and I would bet that the answer is "yes". It would function in very much the same manor as the ignition points you cited and as arc-suppression duties as I discussed in the 'Connection in the OV Protection chapter and as shown across the relay contacts on page 3 of: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9011/9011-700-1C.pdf It could be calculated if the system characteristics were accurately known . . . or crafted by empirically during bench tests. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:35:27 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Heads-up on a double sided adhesive product --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 03:18 PM 3/8/2006 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Schroeder" > > >Bob - > >You have no idea how useful those studs are/were for our wiring. We used >E-6000 and the worked like a charm. Still could use a dozen of them to >replace the nylon-zip tie kind. We shaved off the double sided tape on the >nylon kind and used E-6000, but they are not as robust as the studs. Let >the list know when you get the studs. I will. I've been besieged with requests and I've bugged the junk dealer that supplied them until he's no long happy to see me walk in the door. I owe him a 5th of his favorite. In any case, I had dinner with some folks from Amphenol's skunk works a couple of weeks ago. They're helping me with a really small but super rugged wire and fiber optics combo connector. During the course of our discussions, I mentioned the bond studs and we scratched on the back of a napkin for awhile. I think we've got a reasonable design that won't break the bank for tooling or minimum quantities . . . but I'll still have to buy 10-20 thousand at a whack. Hope to hear back from them soon. And you can bet that once I have a bushel basket full of them on the shelf, I'm a sure bet to make that fact known! Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:29:13 PM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Heads-up on a double sided adhesive product From: "George Braly" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "George Braly" Bob, We have a CNC bar feed lathe. It could make those fairly easily. We keep the machine pretty busy, but we might be able to make those in a graveyard shift. Any idea what the price point might be? Regards, George -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2006 8:35 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Heads-up on a double sided adhesive product --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 03:18 PM 3/8/2006 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Schroeder" > > >Bob - > >You have no idea how useful those studs are/were for our wiring. We used >E-6000 and the worked like a charm. Still could use a dozen of them to >replace the nylon-zip tie kind. We shaved off the double sided tape on the >nylon kind and used E-6000, but they are not as robust as the studs. Let >the list know when you get the studs. I will. I've been besieged with requests and I've bugged the junk dealer that supplied them until he's no long happy to see me walk in the door. I owe him a 5th of his favorite. In any case, I had dinner with some folks from Amphenol's skunk works a couple of weeks ago. They're helping me with a really small but super rugged wire and fiber optics combo connector. During the course of our discussions, I mentioned the bond studs and we scratched on the back of a napkin for awhile. I think we've got a reasonable design that won't break the bank for tooling or minimum quantities . . . but I'll still have to buy 10-20 thousand at a whack. Hope to hear back from them soon. And you can bet that once I have a bushel basket full of them on the shelf, I'm a sure bet to make that fact known! Bob . . .