---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 03/09/06: 45 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:01 AM - Re: Coolie hat as pointing device (Harley) 2. 06:25 AM - Marketing research question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 3. 06:35 AM - Re: Marketing research question (Mark R Steitle) 4. 06:55 AM - Re: Marketing research question (Mike) 5. 06:57 AM - Re: Marketing research question Annunciated Parameters List (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 06:57 AM - Re: Marketing research question (John Schroeder) 7. 07:16 AM - Re: Marketing research question (Bill Denton) 8. 07:20 AM - Re: Marketing research question (Brian Lloyd) 9. 07:33 AM - Re: Re: Marketing research question Annunciated Parameters List (Brian Lloyd) 10. 08:23 AM - Re: Marketing research question (Vern Little) 11. 08:23 AM - Heads up on double sided adhesive (Mike Christian) 12. 08:29 AM - Re: Marketing research question (Gilles Thesee) 13. 09:33 AM - Re: Re: Marketing research question Annunciated Parameters List (Mark R Steitle) 14. 09:39 AM - Re: Marketing research question (Jerry Grimmonpre) 15. 09:48 AM - Re: Re: Marketing research question Annunciated Parameters List (Bret Smith) 16. 10:00 AM - Re: Marketing research question (sportav8r@aol.com) 17. 10:12 AM - KMA 24 connector (rd2@evenlink.com) 18. 10:20 AM - Re: Coolie hat as pointing device (Bill Dube) 19. 10:41 AM - Re: Re: Marketing research question Annunciated Parameters... (Fiveonepw@aol.com) 20. 10:45 AM - FWF fire annunciator (was market research) (Fiveonepw@aol.com) 21. 11:00 AM - Re: FWF fire annunciator (was market research) (sportav8r@aol.com) 22. 11:05 AM - Re: Marketing research question () 23. 11:10 AM - Re: Re: Marketing research question Annunciated Parameters List (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 24. 11:11 AM - Re: Marketing research question (Mickey Coggins) 25. 11:11 AM - Re: Marketing research question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 26. 11:13 AM - Re: Re: Marketing research question Annunciated Parameters List (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 27. 11:20 AM - Re: Re: Marketing research question Annunciated Parameters List (sportav8r@aol.com) 28. 11:20 AM - Re: Re: Marketing research question Annunciated Parameters List (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 29. 11:24 AM - Re: Marketing research question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 30. 11:26 AM - Re: Re: Marketing research question Annunciated Parameters... (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 31. 11:29 AM - Re: Heads up on double sided adhesive (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 32. 11:37 AM - Re: Marketing research question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 33. 01:05 PM - Re: Re: Marketing research question Annunciated Parameters List (Kevin Horton) 34. 01:07 PM - Re: FWF fire annunciator (was market research) (RV Builder (Michael Sausen)) 35. 01:22 PM - Ray Allen RP3 LED Poaition Indicator (Bill and Marsha) 36. 04:10 PM - Re: Ray Allen RP3 LED Position Indicator (Ralph E. Capen) 37. 05:21 PM - Re: Re: Marketing research question Annunciated Parameters List (Sam Chambers) 38. 06:40 PM - Re: Annunciated Parameters wish list . . . . (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 39. 06:40 PM - Re: Marketing research question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 40. 06:49 PM - Re: Re: Marketing research question Annunciated Parameters List (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 41. 06:52 PM - Re: Marketing research question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 42. 06:54 PM - Re: Marketing research question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 43. 06:55 PM - Re: Marketing research question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 44. 07:56 PM - Re: Marketing research question (Robert G. Wright) 45. 09:09 PM - Re: Re: Annunciated Parameters wish list . . . . (D Wysong) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:01:27 AM PST US From: Harley Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Coolie hat as pointing device --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Harley Morning, Bill... >>Here is a link to the exact "finger" trackball:<< Now THAT'S a great little accessory! Can even use that here at the desktop! Did a little search, and found it is offered on several websites for as little as $11.95 and as much as $24.95 (its MSRP). Also found a couple of WIRELESS finger trackball (logitech makes one) for a bit more ($30-50)...that sounds like a possibility as well. Also found this unique little unit...a wireless, rechargeable, RF finger trackball! Not sure what's in the handle (probably batteries) but it sure looks like the control stick might fit up inside it (at least mine, which is still the plans called Long EZ version)...maybe replace the batteries with a hard wired modification with the wires through the stick? Make a neat looking control stick. Almost Thrustmaster style. www.geeks.com/details.asp?invtid=FDM-B4D-RF&cat=MOU&cpc=MAC Think I'll take a trip around the local stores this morning and see what's available here (we have ALL the big stores here in Henrietta within a mile or so of each other...Wal-Mart, Sam's, BJ's, Target, Best Buy, CompUSA, Circuit City, Radio Shack, Sears, Wegman's , etc, etc.) Harley Dixon Bill Dube wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Bill Dube > >We use trackballs on our airborne instruments. Other pointing devices >are hard to use in turbulent air. Touch pads are nearly impossible to >use in rough air. > >Here is a picture of the instrument that I built a couple of years ago >on the NOAA WP3 Hurricane Hunter: >http://www.al.noaa.gov/2004/photos/P3/13.jpg > >Notice the tiny track ball in the corner of the laptop tray. You "left >click" by pulling the trigger button with your index finger. It is quite >comfortable to work the ball with your thumb. Easy to use in rough air >as your thumb moves with your hand and the whole mouse moves with your >hand too. > >Here is a link to the exact "finger" trackball: >http://www.sfcable.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=MS4-USB >I've seen them for sale at Walmart, but I couldn't find them on their >website. > >I bet you could mount one on top of your control stick. (Be sure to buy >a spare. They are not ultra high quality.) We held ours in place with >Velcro. You can see how your hand could grip the stick while working the >trackball by looking at the picture in the advertisement. Just photoshop >a control stick in. :*) > > Bill Dube' > >Harold wrote: > > > >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Harold" >> >>Re pointing device, How about a Logitech Track ball, USB plug one hand >>operation. >>Thumb moves the ball, index finger left click or wheel, and middle finger >>right click . >>I gave up on the notebook touch pad, and this goes where the notebook >>goes...wouldn't be without it >>Harold >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:25:25 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Marketing research question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" I've got a couple of guys scratching on napkins at Connie's El Mexico cafe over ways to do an annunciator system. They're considering system sizing and trying to deduce whether to craft a 9 or 12 slot annunciator panel. It seems that the largest segment of the OBAM aircraft community would have trouble filling up a 9-slot annunciator panel. A 9-slot panel is looking like 4.2 x 1.6 inches. A 12-slot would be 5.3 x 1.6 inches. We're considering processes for both fabrication and software that would make the product highly customizable. I.e. you decide whether incoming signals are analog, pull up to bus, pull down to ground, what the legends say, and colors of the legends. Of course this is a 'dead front' design . . . legends essentially disappear when not illuminated. Just for grins, I'll toss the question out to the list. From of the list items below, what additional or alternative points of interest might be important enough to light a light and/or blow in your ear? Main Volts Lo Aux Volts Lo Left Fuel Lo Right Fuel Lo Oil Pres Lo Canopy Latch OAT Warn Pitot Heat Bob . . . < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:35:27 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Marketing research question From: "Mark R Steitle" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark R Steitle" Bob, Running a liquid cooled rotary, I would add: Coolant Temp, Coolant Pres, Coolant Low, and also Oil Temp. Mark -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 8:21 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Marketing research question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" I've got a couple of guys scratching on napkins at Connie's El Mexico cafe over ways to do an annunciator system. They're considering system sizing and trying to deduce whether to craft a 9 or 12 slot annunciator panel. It seems that the largest segment of the OBAM aircraft community would have trouble filling up a 9-slot annunciator panel. A 9-slot panel is looking like 4.2 x 1.6 inches. A 12-slot would be 5.3 x 1.6 inches. We're considering processes for both fabrication and software that would make the product highly customizable. I.e. you decide whether incoming signals are analog, pull up to bus, pull down to ground, what the legends say, and colors of the legends. Of course this is a 'dead front' design . . . legends essentially disappear when not illuminated. Just for grins, I'll toss the question out to the list. From of the list items below, what additional or alternative points of interest might be important enough to light a light and/or blow in your ear? Main Volts Lo Aux Volts Lo Left Fuel Lo Right Fuel Lo Oil Pres Lo Canopy Latch OAT Warn Pitot Heat Bob . . . < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:55:55 AM PST US From: "Mike" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Marketing research question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mike" I know that these functions are not as common on most airplanes, but I have them and they could mean the difference. Speed Brakes, Ram Air Open, Gear Pump On, (Continental Engines and the New ECI fuel system for Lycomings - you don't want the pump left on in normal use - "Fuel Pump On") Food for thought, the Advanced Flight Systems AF-2500 has an intergraded customizable electronic warning system with audio built into the engine system package. Over the last three years I have worked with 30 plus owners and all seem to like this type of system. This has prompted an engineer friend of mine at Honeywell to come up with a LCD digital stand alone annunciator system. If you would like I'll keep you posted on his progress. Mike Lancair Legacy TS-11 Kitfox A-320 -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 7:21 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Marketing research question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" I've got a couple of guys scratching on napkins at Connie's El Mexico cafe over ways to do an annunciator system. They're considering system sizing and trying to deduce whether to craft a 9 or 12 slot annunciator panel. It seems that the largest segment of the OBAM aircraft community would have trouble filling up a 9-slot annunciator panel. A 9-slot panel is looking like 4.2 x 1.6 inches. A 12-slot would be 5.3 x 1.6 inches. We're considering processes for both fabrication and software that would make the product highly customizable. I.e. you decide whether incoming signals are analog, pull up to bus, pull down to ground, what the legends say, and colors of the legends. Of course this is a 'dead front' design . . . legends essentially disappear when not illuminated. Just for grins, I'll toss the question out to the list. From of the list items below, what additional or alternative points of interest might be important enough to light a light and/or blow in your ear? Main Volts Lo Aux Volts Lo Left Fuel Lo Right Fuel Lo Oil Pres Lo Canopy Latch OAT Warn Pitot Heat Bob . . . < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > -- 1/16/2006 -- 1/16/2006 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:57:18 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Marketing research question Annunciated Parameters List --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Just for grins, I'll toss the question out to the list. From of the list items below, what additional or alternative points of interest might be important enough to light a light and/or blow in your ear? The wish list now stands at: Main Volts Lo Aux Volts Lo Left Fuel Lo Right Fuel Lo Oil Pres Lo Canopy Latch OAT Warn Pitot Heat Coolant Temp Coolant Pres Coolant Low Oil Temp Bob . . . < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > -- Bob . . . < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:57:50 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Marketing research question From: "John Schroeder" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Schroeder" Bob - I would add: Boost Pump Baggage Door Ground Power Starter Engaged Crossfeed On Thu, 09 Mar 2006 08:20:59 -0600, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > Just for grins, I'll toss the question out to the list. > From of the list items below, what additional or alternative > points of interest might be important enough to light a light > and/or blow in your ear? > Main Volts Lo > Aux Volts Lo > Left Fuel Lo > Right Fuel Lo > Oil Pres Lo > Canopy Latch > OAT Warn > Pitot Heat -- ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:16:12 AM PST US From: "Bill Denton" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Marketing research question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Denton" A couple of minor points, if I may... Isn't there some sort of "recommended standard" for the colors to be used for warning lights and annunciators? I thought I read something about this recently, but I can't seem to find a link to the article. Regarding the "dead front" design, let me mention a usability issue from the computer field that might or might not be relevant in the aviation world: Consider a computer program with two "screens". When you are on one screen, you can both "Print" and "Save" data, and there are "buttons" at the top of the screen that allow you to accomplish this. But on the second page, you can only "Print" the data. Common sense would dictate that since you can't save information on the second page, there would be no need to display a "Save" button; only a "Print" button would be required. But we determined that users preferred to also have a "Save" button on the second page, even though it was disabled and non-functional. A consistent button layout provided more usability than a design in which buttons appeared and disappeared, which tended to confuse users. Again, I don't know if this is relevant in the aircraft world, but it might be worth considering. One other point regarding the "dead front" design: What about the first-time or occasional flyer of the airplane? How would they know which parameters were annunciated, and which would need to be monitored via a gauge or other indicator? I assume good practice would dictate that all of the annunciator lights would be illuminated when the battery master was turned on, then go dark following engine start. While this would provide some indication of what parameters would be annunciated, would the first-time or occasional pilot remember what they were? None of this may be of any importance whatsoever, but these are the sort of questions I would want to see asked anytime anything was being designed... -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Thursday, March 9, 2006 8:21 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Marketing research question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" I've got a couple of guys scratching on napkins at Connie's El Mexico cafe over ways to do an annunciator system. They're considering system sizing and trying to deduce whether to craft a 9 or 12 slot annunciator panel. It seems that the largest segment of the OBAM aircraft community would have trouble filling up a 9-slot annunciator panel. A 9-slot panel is looking like 4.2 x 1.6 inches. A 12-slot would be 5.3 x 1.6 inches. We're considering processes for both fabrication and software that would make the product highly customizable. I.e. you decide whether incoming signals are analog, pull up to bus, pull down to ground, what the legends say, and colors of the legends. Of course this is a 'dead front' design . . . legends essentially disappear when not illuminated. Just for grins, I'll toss the question out to the list. From of the list items below, what additional or alternative points of interest might be important enough to light a light and/or blow in your ear? Main Volts Lo Aux Volts Lo Left Fuel Lo Right Fuel Lo Oil Pres Lo Canopy Latch OAT Warn Pitot Heat Bob . . . < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:20:44 AM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Marketing research question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > Just for grins, I'll toss the question out to the list. > From of the list items below, what additional or alternative > points of interest might be important enough to light a light > and/or blow in your ear? > > Main Volts Lo > Aux Volts Lo > Left Fuel Lo > Right Fuel Lo > Oil Pres Lo > Canopy Latch > OAT Warn > Pitot Heat You know, I installed an OAT warning in my RV-4 to let me know when the OAT dropped below 0C. It turned out to be a huge annoyance as it would go off whether or not there was any chance for ice. And when there was a chance of ice and temps below 0C, I already knew without the warning. This tells me that an OAT warning is not particularly useful. Kind of like an ELT: 100 false alarms for one useful alarm. -- Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630 +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . - Antoine de Saint-Exupery ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:33:05 AM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE: Marketing research question Annunciated Parameters List --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > Just for grins, I'll toss the question out to the list. > From of the list items below, what additional or alternative > points of interest might be important enough to light a light > and/or blow in your ear? > > The wish list now stands at: > > Main Volts Lo > Aux Volts Lo > Left Fuel Lo > Right Fuel Lo > Oil Pres Lo > Canopy Latch > OAT Warn > Pitot Heat > Coolant Temp > Coolant Pres > Coolant Low > Oil Temp Bob, the most useful thing I had in my RV-4 was aural alerting. I had the Audio Flight Avionics engine monitor. It was the most useful engine and systems monitor I have ever used. The key was that all alerts were in a pleasant female voice. I looked at the panel to manipulate engine settings, e.g. MAP (throttel), RPM (prop), EGT (mixture), CHT, but I didn't bother to display anything else full-time. (I could ask the unit to display any parameter at any time.) The rest of the time I would rely on the aural alerting. I didn't need to look inside for anything having to do with operating the airplane in VFR conditions. If there was a problem, it would tell me with a message like: "Warning, cylinder head temperature high" (lower the nose or reduce power), "Warning, fuel pressure low" (oops, I forgot to switch tanks), In an airplane with a fixed-pitch prop I might get, "Warning, engine RPM high," while doing acro so I would know to retard the throttle. So if you decide to build this, throw in the aural warning. Memory in cheap in microprocessors these days so we record the warnings. Men can have the sexy woman's voice and women can have the sexy guy's voice. ;-) -- Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630 +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . - Antoine de Saint-Exupery ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:23:08 AM PST US From: Vern Little Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Marketing research question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Vern Little Bob: I've looked at this problem extensively in the past, and developed several annunciator products, and have a few more on the drawing board. In my opinion, no matter what you choose, someone will always require something different than you make. If you end up being totally general purpose, then you may wish to consider a color LCD screen as an annunciator display. This has it's drawbacks too-- many people like discrete lamps. NKK makes some (very expensive) backlit LCD switches/displays. You can display legends or messages on a small (about 1"x1") display, and have the option of incorporating a mute/acknowledge switch built into the display. Of course, by the time you are done, this will cost more than some electronic engine monitors... which are well positioned as annunciator displays (given enough inputs). I also looked at customization at build time... programming inputs and legends. This is a very expensive (and error prone) process. If you can make everything field programmable by the end user, it will be easier and cheaper in the long term. Finally, as you (unfortunately) know, the Experimental aircraft market is too small to justify expensive custom tooling and software development, so it's nice to piggy back on other markets (like industrial control). Of course... you need entirely different input and legend requirements.... oh well! Good luck with this project, I hope they find the recipe for success. Vern Little Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > I've got a couple of guys scratching on napkins at Connie's > El Mexico cafe over ways to do an annunciator system. > They're considering system sizing and trying to deduce > whether to craft a 9 or 12 slot annunciator panel. It seems that > the largest segment of the OBAM aircraft community would have > trouble filling up a 9-slot annunciator panel. > > A 9-slot panel is looking like 4.2 x 1.6 inches. A 12-slot > would be 5.3 x 1.6 inches. We're considering processes for > both fabrication and software that would make the product > highly customizable. I.e. you decide whether incoming signals > are analog, pull up to bus, pull down to ground, what > the legends say, and colors of the legends. Of course this > is a 'dead front' design . . . legends essentially disappear > when not illuminated. > > Just for grins, I'll toss the question out to the list. > From of the list items below, what additional or alternative > points of interest might be important enough to light a light > and/or blow in your ear? > > Main Volts Lo > Aux Volts Lo > Left Fuel Lo > Right Fuel Lo > Oil Pres Lo > Canopy Latch > OAT Warn > Pitot Heat > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:23:09 AM PST US From: "Mike Christian" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Heads up on double sided adhesive --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mike Christian" One very strong adhesive tape we use is 3M VHB (for Very High Bond). It is great for metal to metal bonding (and just about anything else). I was told that it is used to bond wing skins to ribs in some aircraft applications. It is very thin too... www.3m.com/vhb Mike ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:29:49 AM PST US From: Gilles Thesee Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Marketing research question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee Robert L. Nuckolls, III a crit : >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > >I've got a couple of guys scratching on napkins at Connie's >El Mexico cafe over ways to do an annunciator system. >They're considering system sizing and trying to deduce >whether to craft a 9 or 12 slot annunciator panel. It seems that >the largest segment of the OBAM aircraft community would have >trouble filling up a 9-slot annunciator panel. > >A 9-slot panel is looking like 4.2 x 1.6 inches. A 12-slot >would be 5.3 x 1.6 inches. We're considering processes for >both fabrication and software that would make the product >highly customizable. I.e. you decide whether incoming signals >are analog, pull up to bus, pull down to ground, what >the legends say, and colors of the legends. Of course this >is a 'dead front' design . . . legends essentially disappear >when not illuminated. > >Just for grins, I'll toss the question out to the list. > From of the list items below, what additional or alternative >points of interest might be important enough to light a light >and/or blow in your ear? > >Main Volts Lo >Aux Volts Lo >Left Fuel Lo >Right Fuel Lo >Oil Pres Lo >Canopy Latch >OAT Warn >Pitot Heat > > Hi Bob and all, In our project, we have two Rotax specific lights : Overboost (red) Turbo (control malfunction) (yellow) I also included Boost pump ON (white) Flaps down (white) Coolant pressure would be great, too. FWIW, Regards, Gilles Thesee Grenoble, France http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:33:17 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RE: Marketing research question Annunciated Parameters List From: "Mark R Steitle" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark R Steitle" Bob, This seems a good time to bring this up. My Chevy p/u has a cool little "message center" that tells me that its time to change oil, or that the cargo light is on, etc. It is about 1.5" square. I was wondering if it would be possible to adapt this to experimental a/c use as a compact annunciator? I don't have a clue as to how it works, but I thought that it may be possible to get one from GM, or out of a wreck, and then program a PIC to provide customized alerts for various things of interest. It appears to use some sort of LED panel with yellow lettering. So, does this sound plausible? Has anyone on the list done this? Am I nuts? Mark S. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 8:57 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Marketing research question Annunciated Parameters List --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Just for grins, I'll toss the question out to the list. From of the list items below, what additional or alternative points of interest might be important enough to light a light and/or blow in your ear? The wish list now stands at: Main Volts Lo Aux Volts Lo Left Fuel Lo Right Fuel Lo Oil Pres Lo Canopy Latch OAT Warn Pitot Heat Coolant Temp Coolant Pres Coolant Low Oil Temp Bob . . . < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > -- Bob . . . < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:39:21 AM PST US From: "Jerry Grimmonpre" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Marketing research question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jerry Grimmonpre" Bob ... How about only one small LCD the size of single display light ... When a warning is announced, it is displayed. If there's more than one warning the LCD scrolls to display when the acknowledge button is pressed. The ackowledge button would also change the color of the displyed item until that item is dealt with. I think a simple aural tone would be enough to get attention. The aural tone would end with pushing the acknowledge button. This single display would fit all panels and be cheap to produce. My 2 cents ... Jerry Grimmonpre' RV8A ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:48:59 AM PST US From: "Bret Smith" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE: Marketing research question Annunciated Parameters List --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bret Smith" How about a simple "Master ON" reminder? Bret ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 9:56 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Marketing research question Annunciated Parameters List > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > > Just for grins, I'll toss the question out to the list. > From of the list items below, what additional or alternative > points of interest might be important enough to light a light > and/or blow in your ear? > > The wish list now stands at: > > Main Volts Lo > Aux Volts Lo > Left Fuel Lo > Right Fuel Lo > Oil Pres Lo > Canopy Latch > OAT Warn > Pitot Heat > Coolant Temp > Coolant Pres > Coolant Low > Oil Temp > > > Bob . . . > > > < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > > < the authority which determines whether there can be > > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > > < with experiment. > > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > > > > -- > > > Bob . . . > > > < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > > < the authority which determines whether there can be > > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > > < with experiment. > > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:00:50 AM PST US From: sportav8r@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Marketing research question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com Sensors might be difficult, but the inputs I'd need most often are things like: Tiedowns still tied; Pitot cover left on; Passenger exceeds allowable weight or girth limits; canopy ajar; cowl plugs still in; bad wx decision; Center freq. selected for air-air chit-chat; seafood cooler leakage. On a serious note, how about a FWF fire annunciator? -Bill B -----Original Message----- From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Thu, 09 Mar 2006 08:20:59 -0600 Subject: AeroElectric-List: Marketing research question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" I've got a couple of guys scratching on napkins at Connie's El Mexico cafe over ways to do an annunciator system. They're considering system sizing and trying to deduce whether to craft a 9 or 12 slot annunciator panel. It seems that the largest segment of the OBAM aircraft community would have trouble filling up a 9-slot annunciator panel. A 9-slot panel is looking like 4.2 x 1.6 inches. A 12-slot would be 5.3 x 1.6 inches. We're considering processes for both fabrication and software that would make the product highly customizable. I.e. you decide whether incoming signals are analog, pull up to bus, pull down to ground, what the legends say, and colors of the legends. Of course this is a 'dead front' design . . . legends essentially disappear when not illuminated. Just for grins, I'll toss the question out to the list. From of the list items below, what additional or alternative points of interest might be important enough to light a light and/or blow in your ear? Main Volts Lo Aux Volts Lo Left Fuel Lo Right Fuel Lo Oil Pres Lo Canopy Latch OAT Warn Pitot Heat Bob . . . < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:12:43 AM PST US From: rd2@evenlink.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: KMA 24 connector --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: rd2@evenlink.com Can anyone point me to a source for a KMA 24 audio panel connector and pins? Thanks Rumen ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:20:52 AM PST US From: Bill Dube Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Coolie hat as pointing device --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Bill Dube Perhaps you could buy both the wired and wireless finger mice, then swap the guts. This would give you the nifty case that would fit perfectly on the top of the stick, but without having to deal with the wireless stuff or battery replacement/substitution. Bill Dube' Harley wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Harley > >Morning, Bill... > > >>Here is a link to the exact "finger" trackball:<< > >Now THAT'S a great little accessory! Can even use that here at the desktop! > >Did a little search, and found it is offered on several websites for as >little as $11.95 and as much as $24.95 (its MSRP). > >Also found a couple of WIRELESS finger trackball (logitech makes one) >for a bit more ($30-50)...that sounds like a possibility as well. > >Also found this unique little unit...a wireless, rechargeable, RF finger >trackball! Not sure what's in the handle (probably batteries) but it >sure looks like the control stick might fit up inside it (at least mine, >which is still the plans called Long EZ version)...maybe replace the >batteries with a hard wired modification with the wires through the >stick? Make a neat looking control stick. Almost Thrustmaster style. > >www.geeks.com/details.asp?invtid=FDM-B4D-RF&cat=MOU&cpc=MAC > >Think I'll take a trip around the local stores this morning and see >what's available here (we have ALL the big stores here in Henrietta >within a mile or so of each other...Wal-Mart, Sam's, BJ's, Target, Best >Buy, CompUSA, Circuit City, Radio Shack, Sears, Wegman's , etc, etc.) > >Harley Dixon > > >Bill Dube wrote: > > > >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Bill Dube >> >>We use trackballs on our airborne instruments. Other pointing devices >>are hard to use in turbulent air. Touch pads are nearly impossible to >>use in rough air. >> >>Here is a picture of the instrument that I built a couple of years ago >>on the NOAA WP3 Hurricane Hunter: >>http://www.al.noaa.gov/2004/photos/P3/13.jpg >> >>Notice the tiny track ball in the corner of the laptop tray. You "left >>click" by pulling the trigger button with your index finger. It is quite >>comfortable to work the ball with your thumb. Easy to use in rough air >>as your thumb moves with your hand and the whole mouse moves with your >>hand too. >> >>Here is a link to the exact "finger" trackball: >>http://www.sfcable.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=MS4-USB >>I've seen them for sale at Walmart, but I couldn't find them on their >>website. >> >>I bet you could mount one on top of your control stick. (Be sure to buy >>a spare. They are not ultra high quality.) We held ours in place with >>Velcro. You can see how your hand could grip the stick while working the >>trackball by looking at the picture in the advertisement. Just photoshop >>a control stick in. :*) >> >> Bill Dube' >> >>Harold wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Harold" >>> >>>Re pointing device, How about a Logitech Track ball, USB plug one hand >>>operation. >>>Thumb moves the ball, index finger left click or wheel, and middle finger >>>right click . >>>I gave up on the notebook touch pad, and this goes where the notebook >>>goes...wouldn't be without it >>>Harold >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:41:07 AM PST US From: Fiveonepw@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE: Marketing research question Annunciated Parameters... --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com In a message dated 3/9/06 10:47:48 AM Central Standard Time, nuckollsr@cox.net writes: > The wish list now stands at: > > Main Volts Lo > Aux Volts Lo > Left Fuel Lo > Right Fuel Lo > Oil Pres Lo > Canopy Latch > OAT Warn > Pitot Heat > Coolant Temp > Coolant Pres > Coolant Low > Oil Temp >>>>>>>>>> My annunciator features a FLAPS indicator that is on whenever the flaps are not all the way up- has proven useful several times, particularly when going around. Also think OAT might be annoying unless smart enough to x-check humidity. An EIS light would be useful for all those folks using these engine monitors... Mark Phillips do not archive ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:45:49 AM PST US From: Fiveonepw@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: FWF fire annunciator (was market research) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com In a message dated 3/9/06 12:05:00 PM Central Standard Time, sportav8r@aol.com writes: > On a serious note, how about a FWF fire annunciator? > >>>>> Has anyone considered or tried a thermocouple centered on the cowl outlet to monitor air temp? An AUX channel on EIS could monitor sensor with upper limit setting at some value above normal ops to possibly serve this purpose... Mark do not archive ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:00:56 AM PST US From: sportav8r@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: FWF fire annunciator (was market research) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com My thought s have been toward a combo of overtemp sensor (as you suggest), either in series or parallel with an arrangement where a cotton thread holds open a spring-loaded N.C. plunger-type microswitch. In theory, the flame parts the thread and closes the switch, whereas high temps alone would not trip it. Cotton thread would probably be a frequent replacement item, though, in that oily, hot, and vibration-filled environment, and easily broken during engine maintenance chores. I have not installed anything like this in my RV, but have given it some thought. -Bill B -----Original Message----- From: Fiveonepw@aol.com Sent: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 13:44:31 EST Subject: AeroElectric-List: FWF fire annunciator (was market research) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com In a message dated 3/9/06 12:05:00 PM Central Standard Time, sportav8r@aol.com writes: > On a serious note, how about a FWF fire annunciator? > >>>>> Has anyone considered or tried a thermocouple centered on the cowl outlet to monitor air temp? An AUX channel on EIS could monitor sensor with upper limit setting at some value above normal ops to possibly serve this purpose... Mark do not archive ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 11:05:46 AM PST US From: Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Marketing research question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Electric Bob asked: << From of the list items below, what additional or alternative points of interest might be important enough to light a light and/or blow in your ear? >> My addition would be landing gear up and throttle > 1/3. Regards, Bob Lee KR2 N52BL Suwanee, GA 91% done only 63% to go! ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 11:10:16 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Annunciated Parameters List Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE: Marketing research question Annunciated Parameters List --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Annunciated Parameters List At 12:43 PM 3/9/2006 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bret Smith" > >How about a simple "Master ON" reminder? If you have active notification of low voltage (your primary electrical system monitoring function), the it's already jumping up and down right after the alternator is shut down and/or the engine stops. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 11:11:29 AM PST US From: Mickey Coggins Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Marketing research question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins > From of the list items below, what additional or alternative > points of interest might be important enough to light a light > and/or blow in your ear? > > Main Volts Lo > Aux Volts Lo > Left Fuel Lo > Right Fuel Lo > Oil Pres Lo > Canopy Latch > OAT Warn > Pitot Heat > Bob, You've gotten some great feedback already. Trio Avionics is using an LCD switch that has text that changes. http://www.trioavionics.com/alt_hold.htm Here's Paul Dye's home grown annunciator panel: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=5197 Whatever you do, I'd recommend leaving the labels open for the builder to set them however they like. Clear label makers with reverse text output work great for this. Also, Vern's got some nice products here: http://www.vx-aviation.com/page_2.html Here's what I'm planning: Engine Computer Warning Fuel Pressure Low Aux Fuel Pump On OVP Active Low Coolant EIS Warning The EIS Warning is linked to the GRT Avionics EIS 4000, and it is monitoring lots of stuff. Best regards, Mickey -- Mickey Coggins http://www.rv8.ch/ #82007 finishing ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 11:11:51 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Marketing research question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 11:37 AM 3/9/2006 -0600, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jerry Grimmonpre" > >Bob ... >How about only one small LCD the size of single display light ... When a >warning is announced, it is displayed. If there's more than one warning the >LCD scrolls to display when the acknowledge button is pressed. The >ackowledge button would also change the color of the displyed item until >that item is dealt with. I think a simple aural tone would be enough to get >attention. The aural tone would end with pushing the acknowledge button. >This single display would fit all panels and be cheap to produce. >My 2 cents ... >Jerry Grimmonpre' We talked about this . . . but sunlight viewabel LCD's are still pretty pricey compared to an epoxy casting full of LED which are getting cheaper daily. . . . and certainly, new warnings would flash and deliver a warning tone. When a button is pushed, flashing and tone stops. Bob. . . ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 11:13:37 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Annunciated Parameters List Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RE: Marketing research question Annunciated Parameters List --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Annunciated Parameters List At 11:27 AM 3/9/2006 -0600, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark R Steitle" > > >Bob, >This seems a good time to bring this up. My Chevy p/u has a cool little >"message center" that tells me that its time to change oil, or that the >cargo light is on, etc. It is about 1.5" square. I was wondering if it >would be possible to adapt this to experimental a/c use as a compact >annunciator? I don't have a clue as to how it works, but I thought that >it may be possible to get one from GM, or out of a wreck, and then >program a PIC to provide customized alerts for various things of >interest. It appears to use some sort of LED panel with yellow >lettering. So, does this sound plausible? Has anyone on the list done >this? Am I nuts? Not at all. In fact, this is the wave of the future. We keep watching it. At the present time it doesn't fit our $time$ to market model. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 11:20:03 AM PST US From: sportav8r@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE: Marketing research question Annunciated Parameters List --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com This sounds like the button that Trio uses in my altitude hold :-) Slick little item. -BB -----Original Message----- From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Thu, 09 Mar 2006 13:13:30 -0600 Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RE: Marketing research question Annunciated Parameters List --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Annunciated Parameters List At 11:27 AM 3/9/2006 -0600, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark R Steitle" > > >Bob, >This seems a good time to bring this up. My Chevy p/u has a cool little >"message center" that tells me that its time to change oil, or that the >cargo light is on, etc. It is about 1.5" square. I was wondering if it >would be possible to adapt this to experimental a/c use as a compact >annunciator? I don't have a clue as to how it works, but I thought that >it may be possible to get one from GM, or out of a wreck, and then >program a PIC to provide customized alerts for various things of >interest. It appears to use some sort of LED panel with yellow >lettering. So, does this sound plausible? Has anyone on the list done >this? Am I nuts? Not at all. In fact, this is the wave of the future. We keep watching it. At the present time it doesn't fit our $time$ to market model. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 11:20:03 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Annunciated Parameters List Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE: Marketing research question Annunciated Parameters List --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Annunciated Parameters List > >So if you decide to build this, throw in the aural warning. Memory in >cheap in microprocessors these days so we record the warnings. Men can >have the sexy woman's voice and women can have the sexy guy's voice. ;-) That's been discussed. The voice chips are plentiful and capable. It's a big delta $time$ for development but the idea is still in the pot. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 11:24:01 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Marketing research question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 09:13 AM 3/9/2006 -0600, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Denton" > >A couple of minor points, if I may... > >Isn't there some sort of "recommended standard" for the colors to be used >for warning lights and annunciators? I thought I read something about this >recently, but I can't seem to find a link to the article. Yes. We use the "accepted/approved" colors for such things out at RAC . . . but picking colors will be a trivial concern and highly customizable. >One other point regarding the "dead front" design: What about the first-time >or occasional flyer of the airplane? How would they know which parameters >were annunciated, and which would need to be monitored via a gauge or other >indicator? Press-to-test and power-up reset lights all the lights. >I assume good practice would dictate that all of the annunciator lights >would be illuminated when the battery master was turned on, then go dark >following engine start. While this would provide some indication of what >parameters would be annunciated, would the first-time or occasional pilot >remember what they were? > >None of this may be of any importance whatsoever, but these are the sort of >questions I would want to see asked anytime anything was being designed... Good food for thought. Thanks! Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 11:26:49 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Annunciated Parameters... Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE: Marketing research question Annunciated Parameters... --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Annunciated Parameters... > > >>>>>>>>>> >My annunciator features a FLAPS indicator that is on whenever the flaps are >not all the way up- has proven useful several times, particularly when going >around. Also think OAT might be annoying unless smart enough to x-check >humidity. An EIS light would be useful for all those folks using these >engine >monitors... Okay . . . it's been added. Bob . . . < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 11:29:18 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Heads up on double sided adhesive --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 08:23 AM 3/9/2006 -0800, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mike Christian" > > >One very strong adhesive tape we use is 3M VHB (for Very High Bond). It is >great for metal to metal bonding (and just about anything else). I was told >that it is used to bond wing skins to ribs in some aircraft applications. >It is very thin too... > >www.3m.com/vhb I'm familiar with these products. We use them in various places around RAC. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 11:37:16 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Marketing research question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 08:18 AM 3/9/2006 -0800, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Vern Little > >Bob: I've looked at this problem extensively in the past, and developed >several annunciator products, and have a few more on the drawing board. > >In my opinion, no matter what you choose, someone will always require >something different than you make. If you end up being totally general >purpose, then you may wish to consider a color LCD screen as an >annunciator display. We're targeting the middle market with a goal of minimizing costs (and of course, development time). >This has it's drawbacks too-- many people like discrete lamps. > >NKK makes some (very expensive) backlit LCD switches/displays. You can >display legends or messages on a small (about 1"x1") display, and have >the option of incorporating a mute/acknowledge switch built into the >display. > >Of course, by the time you are done, this will cost more than some >electronic engine monitors... which are well positioned as annunciator >displays (given enough inputs). Yup . . . >I also looked at customization at build time... programming inputs and >legends. This is a very expensive (and error prone) process. If you >can make everything field programmable by the end user, it will be >easier and cheaper in the long term. Yes. One version would have a USB port and a graphical user interface for user programming of certain parameters. Of course, with lamps, the legends are harder to change but it's a peel-off overlay. We could fabricate a new one pretty reasonably. >Finally, as you (unfortunately) know, the Experimental aircraft market >is too small to justify expensive custom tooling and software >development, so it's nice to piggy back on other markets (like >industrial control). Of course... you need entirely different input >and legend requirements.... oh well! I'm not sure that's so much of a roadblock. $time$ to market for certified ships is going up exponentially with new no-value-added- requirements and labor being added each year. My team of skunk-works guys can wear a lot of hats and don't need to satisfy anyone but me and my customers . . . >Good luck with this project, I hope they find the recipe for success. Thanks for sharing . . . Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 01:05:42 PM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE: Marketing research question Annunciated Parameters List --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kevin Horton Fuel Pres Lo Engine (output from an engine monitor, to tell you to look at it to see what problem it has found). Kevin Horton On 9 Mar 2006, at 09:56, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > > Just for grins, I'll toss the question out to the list. > From of the list items below, what additional or alternative > points of interest might be important enough to light a light > and/or blow in your ear? > > The wish list now stands at: > > Main Volts Lo > Aux Volts Lo > Left Fuel Lo > Right Fuel Lo > Oil Pres Lo > Canopy Latch > OAT Warn > Pitot Heat > Coolant Temp > Coolant Pres > Coolant Low > Oil Temp > > ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 01:07:44 PM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: FWF fire annunciator (was market research) From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" Someone mentioned this once before (Eric maybe) but you could use one of these puppies for flame detection. Michael Sausen RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage Do Not Archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of sportav8r@aol.com Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 12:59 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: FWF fire annunciator (was market research) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com My thought s have been toward a combo of overtemp sensor (as you suggest), either in series or parallel with an arrangement where a cotton thread holds open a spring-loaded N.C. plunger-type microswitch. In theory, the flame parts the thread and closes the switch, whereas high temps alone would not trip it. Cotton thread would probably be a frequent replacement item, though, in that oily, hot, and vibration-filled environment, and easily broken during engine maintenance chores. I have not installed anything like this in my RV, but have given it some thought. -Bill B -----Original Message----- From: Fiveonepw@aol.com Sent: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 13:44:31 EST Subject: AeroElectric-List: FWF fire annunciator (was market research) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com In a message dated 3/9/06 12:05:00 PM Central Standard Time, sportav8r@aol.com writes: > On a serious note, how about a FWF fire annunciator? > >>>>> Has anyone considered or tried a thermocouple centered on the cowl outlet to monitor air temp? An AUX channel on EIS could monitor sensor with upper limit setting at some value above normal ops to possibly serve this purpose... Mark do not archive ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 01:22:35 PM PST US From: "Bill and Marsha" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Ray Allen RP3 LED Poaition Indicator --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill and Marsha" I have a rac rp3 indicator that I would like to use as a flap position indicator. Can anyone tell me the color code of the six wires. And the resistance needed for the feedback ckt? Bill S. ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 04:10:48 PM PST US From: "Ralph E. Capen" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ray Allen RP3 LED Position Indicator --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ralph E. Capen" They make an indicator sender too I've got one just for that purpose. My documentation is at the hangar - but it may be on their website...... Get me off-list if you need more info ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill and Marsha" Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 3:39 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Ray Allen RP3 LED Poaition Indicator > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill and Marsha" > > > I have a rac rp3 indicator that I would like to use as a flap position > indicator. Can anyone tell me the color code of the six wires. And the > resistance needed for the feedback ckt? Bill S. > > > ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 05:21:27 PM PST US From: "Sam Chambers" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE: Marketing research question Annunciated Parameters List --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Sam Chambers" gear ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 8:56 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Marketing research question Annunciated Parameters List > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > > Just for grins, I'll toss the question out to the list. > From of the list items below, what additional or alternative > points of interest might be important enough to light a light > and/or blow in your ear? > > The wish list now stands at: > > Main Volts Lo > Aux Volts Lo > Left Fuel Lo > Right Fuel Lo > Oil Pres Lo > Canopy Latch > OAT Warn > Pitot Heat > Coolant Temp > Coolant Pres > Coolant Low > Oil Temp > > > Bob . . . > > > < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > > < the authority which determines whether there can be > > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > > < with experiment. > > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > > > > -- > > > Bob . . . > > > < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > > < the authority which determines whether there can be > > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > > < with experiment. > > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > > > > ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 06:40:25 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Annunciated Parameters wish list . . . . --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Just for grins, I'll toss the question out to the list. From of the list items below, what additional or alternative points of interest might be important enough to light a light and/or blow in your ear? The wish list now stands at: Main Volts Lo Aux Volts Lo Left Fuel Lo Right Fuel Lo Oil Pres Lo Canopy Latch OAT Warn Pitot Heat Coolant Temp Coolant Pres Coolant Low Oil Temp Turbo (control malfunction) (yellow) Boost pump ON (white) Fire Flaps Warn Fuel Pump ON Starter engaged P-Mag Maint Prop Overspeed Gear extension Warning Nose Gear Lt Mn Gear Rt Mn Gear Bob . . . < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > -- Bob . . . < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 06:40:25 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Marketing research question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 02:08 PM 3/9/2006 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: > >Electric Bob asked: ><< From of the list items below, what additional or alternative >points of interest might be important enough to light a light >and/or blow in your ear? >> > >My addition would be landing gear up and throttle > 1/3. > >Regards, > >Bob Lee >KR2 N52BL Suwanee, GA >91% done only 63% to go! Good one. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 06:49:03 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Annunciated Parameters List Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE: Marketing research question Annunciated Parameters List --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Annunciated Parameters List At 04:01 PM 3/9/2006 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kevin Horton > >Fuel Pres Lo >Engine (output from an engine monitor, to tell you to look at it to >see what problem it has found). Another good one. I'll add it. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 06:52:59 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Marketing research question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 07:19 AM 3/9/2006 -0800, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd > >Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > Just for grins, I'll toss the question out to the list. > > From of the list items below, what additional or alternative > > points of interest might be important enough to light a light > > and/or blow in your ear? > > > > Main Volts Lo > > Aux Volts Lo > > Left Fuel Lo > > Right Fuel Lo > > Oil Pres Lo > > Canopy Latch > > OAT Warn > > Pitot Heat > >You know, I installed an OAT warning in my RV-4 to let me know when the >OAT dropped below 0C. It turned out to be a huge annoyance as it would >go off whether or not there was any chance for ice. And when there was a >chance of ice and temps below 0C, I already knew without the warning. > >This tells me that an OAT warning is not particularly useful. Kind of >like an ELT: 100 false alarms for one useful alarm. Good data point. Now an active ice detector . . . I did some experimenting a few years ago with piezo-electric speaker-disks. Rigged them up in an oscillator circuit where the electrical/mass characteristics of the disk determined frequency. Any addition of mass to the disk (ice accretion) dropped the frequency or killed the oscillation entirely. That project never bubbled up to the top of the IR&D interest list. The last concept was fragile and not terribly esthetic either. It was a rather strange looking projection from a leading edge although mounting it on the vertical fin seemed least likely to offend. Bob . . . >-- >Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way >brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630 >+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) > >I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . >- Antoine de Saint-Exupery > > >-- > > Bob . . . < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 06:54:06 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Marketing research question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 09:57 AM 3/9/2006 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Schroeder" > > >Bob - > >I would add: > >Boost Pump >Baggage Door >Ground Power >Starter Engaged >Crossfeed Good. ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 06:55:42 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Marketing research question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 07:54 AM 3/9/2006 -0700, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mike" > >I know that these functions are not as common on most airplanes, but I >have them and they could mean the difference. Speed Brakes, Ram Air >Open, Gear Pump On, (Continental Engines and the New ECI fuel system for >Lycomings - you don't want the pump left on in normal use - "Fuel Pump >On") > >Food for thought, the Advanced Flight Systems AF-2500 has an intergraded >customizable electronic warning system with audio built into the engine >system package. Over the last three years I have worked with 30 plus >owners and all seem to like this type of system. This has prompted an >engineer friend of mine at Honeywell to come up with a LCD digital stand >alone annunciator system. If you would like I'll keep you posted on his >progress. > >Mike Sure! One needs to keep their friends close and their competition closer . . . but then we're all friends here. It would be interesting to hear of any insights that can be shared. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 07:56:48 PM PST US From: "Robert G. Wright" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Marketing research question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert G. Wright" Emplace a "push-to-test" spring-loaded button next to the annunciator panel that illuminates the chicklets. Then you can verify not just when the master initially comes on, but also any time on ground or in flight to verify function. Rob -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Denton Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 9:14 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Marketing research question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Denton" A couple of minor points, if I may... Isn't there some sort of "recommended standard" for the colors to be used for warning lights and annunciators? I thought I read something about this recently, but I can't seem to find a link to the article. Regarding the "dead front" design, let me mention a usability issue from the computer field that might or might not be relevant in the aviation world: Consider a computer program with two "screens". When you are on one screen, you can both "Print" and "Save" data, and there are "buttons" at the top of the screen that allow you to accomplish this. But on the second page, you can only "Print" the data. Common sense would dictate that since you can't save information on the second page, there would be no need to display a "Save" button; only a "Print" button would be required. But we determined that users preferred to also have a "Save" button on the second page, even though it was disabled and non-functional. A consistent button layout provided more usability than a design in which buttons appeared and disappeared, which tended to confuse users. Again, I don't know if this is relevant in the aircraft world, but it might be worth considering. One other point regarding the "dead front" design: What about the first-time or occasional flyer of the airplane? How would they know which parameters were annunciated, and which would need to be monitored via a gauge or other indicator? I assume good practice would dictate that all of the annunciator lights would be illuminated when the battery master was turned on, then go dark following engine start. While this would provide some indication of what parameters would be annunciated, would the first-time or occasional pilot remember what they were? None of this may be of any importance whatsoever, but these are the sort of questions I would want to see asked anytime anything was being designed... -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Thursday, March 9, 2006 8:21 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Marketing research question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" I've got a couple of guys scratching on napkins at Connie's El Mexico cafe over ways to do an annunciator system. They're considering system sizing and trying to deduce whether to craft a 9 or 12 slot annunciator panel. It seems that the largest segment of the OBAM aircraft community would have trouble filling up a 9-slot annunciator panel. A 9-slot panel is looking like 4.2 x 1.6 inches. A 12-slot would be 5.3 x 1.6 inches. We're considering processes for both fabrication and software that would make the product highly customizable. I.e. you decide whether incoming signals are analog, pull up to bus, pull down to ground, what the legends say, and colors of the legends. Of course this is a 'dead front' design . . . legends essentially disappear when not illuminated. Just for grins, I'll toss the question out to the list. From of the list items below, what additional or alternative points of interest might be important enough to light a light and/or blow in your ear? Main Volts Lo Aux Volts Lo Left Fuel Lo Right Fuel Lo Oil Pres Lo Canopy Latch OAT Warn Pitot Heat Bob . . . < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 09:09:00 PM PST US From: "D Wysong" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE: Annunciated Parameters wish list . . . . --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "D Wysong" A few more from the turbine community, Bob (... if applicable): Chip Detect BVC Fault Anti-Ice Fuel Filter Oil Filter Fuel Pressure Gen All are fault lights on a Caution/Advisory panel that I've stared at for one too many hours... D ------------------- On 3/9/06, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > Just for grins, I'll toss the question out to the list. > From of the list items below, what additional or alternative > points of interest might be important enough to light a light > and/or blow in your ear?