---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 03/11/06: 26 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:41 AM - rivet & rivnut tool (rd2@evenlink.com) 2. 07:19 AM - Re: Market Survey Phase II (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 3. 08:05 AM - Re: Marketing research question (Dave Morris \) 4. 09:09 AM - Re: Marketing research question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 09:27 AM - Re: In rush limiters (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 09:39 AM - Re: Marketing research question (Brian Lloyd) 7. 10:14 AM - Annunciator panel LED brightness (Mickey Coggins) 8. 10:14 AM - B&C SSF-1 finally died (Dan Checkoway) 9. 10:22 AM - Re: Re: Market Survey Phase II (George Braly) 10. 02:32 PM - Re: Re: Market Survey Phase II (David Lloyd) 11. 02:38 PM - Starter problem analysis (Jim Michael) 12. 02:46 PM - Re: B&C SSF-1 finally died (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 13. 02:48 PM - Re: Annunciator panel LED brightness (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 14. 03:36 PM - Re: Starter problem analysis (David Lloyd) 15. 03:43 PM - Re: B&C SSF-1 finally died (Dan Checkoway) 16. 03:43 PM - Re: Re: Market Survey Phase II (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 17. 04:03 PM - Re: Annunciator panel LED brightness (Mickey Coggins) 18. 04:37 PM - p-mag wiring (Erich_Weaver@URSCorp.com) 19. 05:42 PM - Re: B&C SSF-1 finally died (John Schroeder) 20. 06:34 PM - Annuciator Lights Suggestion (DEAN PSIROPOULOS) 21. 07:16 PM - Re: B&C SSF-1 finally died (Dan Checkoway) 22. 08:26 PM - Re: Annunciator panel LED brightness (Fiveonepw@aol.com) 23. 10:22 PM - Lightspeed Ignition with Key switch (DEAN PSIROPOULOS) 24. 10:24 PM - Re: B&C SSF-1 finally died (Chris & Kellie Hand) 25. 10:56 PM - Re: B&C SSF-1 finally died (Chris & Kellie Hand) 26. 11:09 PM - Re: Annunciator panel LED brightness (Mickey Coggins) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:41:18 AM PST US From: rd2@evenlink.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: rivet & rivnut tool --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: rd2@evenlink.com Thanks, PJ. I didn't realize/forgot to check - HF has actually several of these tools. You can't beat 6.99, even if I had to throw it out; especially if it is for occasional needs. Rumen do not archive _____________________Original message __________________________ (received from PJ Seipel; Date: 06:37 PM 3/10/2006 -0500) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: PJ Seipel Don't buy the tool from Aircraft Spruce. I have that one and I hate it. The swiveling head has been useful once or twice, but it's definitely not worth $40. Go to Harbor Freight and buy the $6.99 one. It works great, and you can grind down the front of the head to get into tight spots. http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=7356 PJ ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:19:44 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Market Survey Phase II --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Okay, the list is pretty complete. Now what I need is your ranking of priorities for items on the list. FORWARD your response to me directly at nuckollsr@cox.net instead of to the List. We don't want go snow the list with a lot of anecdotal posts. Further, I know there are lots of folks who watch this list that seldom if ever post to the list. Please give me the benefit of your inputs too. I need at least 30 and hopefully 50 or more responses to make it a statistically significant survey. Just add numbers after the items on the list in order of priority, #1 being highest. Go out to as many as 20 but the first 9 are most important followed by the next 3. I'll wait about a week and then tabulate the data for publication on the list. If you have any questions as to the meaning of any item, email me directly. The wish list now stands at: Main Volts Lo Aux Volts Lo Left Fuel Lo Right Fuel Lo Oil Pres Lo Fuel Pres Lo Canopy Latch OAT Warn Pitot Heat Coolant Temp Coolant Pres Coolant Low Oil Temp Turbo (control malfunction) (yellow) Boost pump ON (white) Fire Flaps Warn Fuel Pump ON Starter engaged P-Mag Maint Prop Overspeed Gear extension Warning Nose Gear Lt Mn Gear Rt Mn Gear Boost Pump Baggage Door Ground Power Chip Detect BVC Fault Anti-Ice Fuel Filter Oil Filter Crossfeed closed Bob . . . < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:05:08 AM PST US From: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Marketing research question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" I still think Carb Ice is more important than OAT. I have a carb temp sensor in the throat of my MS carb and it would be a simple matter to read it out on the annunciator. A carb can ice up in 80 degree OAT weather. User programmable via PC, yeah, OK, I suppose. Nowadays it's probably cheaper that way than to install a bunch of trimpots. But if the PC interface adds cost, I would go the other way. I would prefer to see user-defined legends on the lights, as opposed to having a bunch of excess unused lights that mean nothing in my non-retractable, single fuel tank, fixed pitch prop aircraft. Angle-of-Attack sensors are also becoming the rage. You could make another simple interface to the annunciator panel for high AOA. PM dynamos have an output line for an idiot light. Why not use that to feed the annunciator to give a warning indication of dynamo failure independent of any other bus voltage sensing. All "nukes armed" kidding aside, my requirements would be for a panel that had these lights: http://www.myglasscockpit.com/AnnunciatorPanel2005.jpg I had already ordered one of these from a company that produced my switch panels, and their price was $95. However, they seem to have gone out of business within the last couple of months, so my "reasonable" price would probably top out at $300 to $500 depending on how well the panel was adaptable to my needs. Dave Morris At 08:48 PM 3/10/2006, you wrote: > > > >I would add: > > > >Carb ice > >Transmitting > > > >I presume "Aux Volts Lo" is actually "E-Bus Low", so why not identify it > >that way? > > Because it's Aux Volts Low. When the e-bus is being used > in it's backup function, it's always low volts . . . battery > only. > > Aux volts is used to watch an aux battery bus to make sure > that the aux battery contactor has is closed and/or > has not failed. > > > >I would like to see the lamps triggerable on either: > >Above a threshold (trimpot settable) > >Below a threshold (trimpot settable) > > The exciting talk right now is to make various functions > user programmable via graphical user interface running > out of a PC. > > > >Here's an example of how to fill up 24 slots: > >http://www.myglasscockpit.com/AnnunciatorPanel.gif > > > >I'll buy one if it's reasonably priced. > > What's a reasonable price? > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:09:06 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Marketing research question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 10:01 AM 3/11/2006 -0600, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" > > >I still think Carb Ice is more important than OAT. I have a carb temp >sensor in the throat of my MS carb and it would be a simple matter to read >it out on the annunciator. A carb can ice up in 80 degree OAT weather. You can weigh in by prioritizing and forwarding you own list . . . >User programmable via PC, yeah, OK, I suppose. Nowadays it's probably >cheaper that way than to install a bunch of trimpots. But if the PC >interface adds cost, I would go the other way. External GUI on a PC is always the lowest cost end product. The External software is no mean task either but as far as keeping size, weight, parts count and price down in the end product, external programmability is the way to do. >I would prefer to see user-defined legends on the lights, as opposed to >having a bunch of excess unused lights that mean nothing in my >non-retractable, single fuel tank, fixed pitch prop aircraft. It's been suggested that the survey is more a promotional tool than a design study. If we were considering a fully programmable LCD screen device with infinite options, I would agree. The topic came up at lunch to see what a minimum cost product with a fixed set of monitored parameters might look like. Of course, ANY combination could be offered as a customized product . . . but folks who can afford my exorbitant consulting fees would probably go get some super-whizzy off-the-shelf product. I don't know that this product will ever come into being in our shop. This is a what-if-how-when-and-why discussion that makes a whole lot more sense if a potential consumer based participates than if we sat around and an hypothesized as to what's wanted/needed. And as I said, I'll publish the results of the survey here. Any entrepreneur who wants to capitalize on the conversation and subsequent data are welcome to jump in. >Angle-of-Attack sensors are also becoming the rage. You could make another >simple interface to the annunciator panel for high AOA. I'm not aware of any stand-alone-sensors that us po' folk could afford . . . and don't most turn-key systems offer built in alarm functions? >PM dynamos have an output line for an idiot light. Why not use that to >feed the annunciator to give a warning indication of dynamo failure >independent of any other bus voltage sensing. repeat after me . . . ACTIVE NOTIFICATION OF LOW VOLTAGE AT THE BUS IS THE SIMPLE-IDEA DEFINITION OF AN INACTIVE POWER GENERATION SYSTEM. The problem with the plethora of 'warning' functions built into the various products, I have neither the access or the time to invest in vetting each of those features as to functionality, reliability, etc. A pre-flight testable, active notification system that's independent of the power generation system or it's accessories works all the time, every time with any combination of system hardware. >All "nukes armed" kidding aside, my requirements would be for a panel that >had these lights: http://www.myglasscockpit.com/AnnunciatorPanel2005.jpg >I had already ordered one of these from a company that produced my switch >panels, and their price was $95. However, they seem to have gone out of >business within the last couple of months, so my "reasonable" price would >probably top out at $300 to $500 depending on how well the panel was >adaptable to my needs. I'm guessing of course but at $95 each, they'd have to sell a boat-load of those so as to make up for the losses in volume . . . If you'd care to convert the .jpg data into a prioritized listing, I'd be pleased to include your preferences in the calculation of market survey data. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:27:22 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: In rush limiters --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 02:29 AM 3/11/2006 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" > > >I'm looking at the in-rush limiters that you recommend installing in the >landing light circuit Bob. These look like the old mica capacitors you used >to see in tube televisions. I have a bit of trepidation about how to mount >these securely and make a secure connection to the landing light wiring. >Any suggestions here? Solder and heat shrink in line with the wire seems a >bit flimsy and floppy to me, what would you recommend? > >Anyone else on the list using in-rush limiters? How did you mount them and >what are your experiences so far? > >Also I have an aluminum aircraft (RV-6A) and plan to ground the landing, >taxi and position lights locally on the spar at the wingtip. From your >comments and your book it doesn't sound like this will be a problem if I >make good solid gas-tight connections. Any additional words of wisdom here? >Thanks. On Digikey catalog page: http://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/T061/1327.pdf we find this data: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Fuses_and_Current_Limiters/GE_Sensors/GE_Inrush_Limiters.jpg These used to be the Keystone Carbon Co. products and have been around for a long time. I used them on the GP-180 taxi and recognition lights. The first time experimental techs turned on the taxi light with a KC003 limiter in series, the thing 'blew up'. Seems he mounted the limiter to the inside surface of the taxi light fixture on the landing gear. It was held down with a very robust clamp worthy of installation on the nose gear of an aircraft. The mounting sinked out so much heat that the device wasn't allowed to warm up to its very low resistance, low wattage 'hot' mode so it self-destructed. I bought some Fiberglas sleeving (actually door gasket material for wood burning stoves) and we fabricated a mechanically robust but thermally isolated mounting for the KC003. Worked just fine after that. Inrush on the lamp dropped from 60+ down to about 10A. Pick a limiter with a max steady state current equal to or as much as 1/3 higher than your operating current. Wrap it up in some thermally appropriate materials to clamp it for support. You're correct, the solid copper lead wires are not looked upon with favor in aircraft fabrication techniques. I'd cut them of to about 1/4", then make little loops for soldering 22759 leadwires. Bob . . . < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:39:16 AM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Marketing research question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd Dave Morris "BigD" wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" > > I still think Carb Ice is more important than OAT. I have a carb temp > sensor in the throat of my MS carb and it would be a simple matter to read > it out on the annunciator. A carb can ice up in 80 degree OAT weather. And the carb can reach an OAT of 0C just downstream of the throat without producing ice. If the temp has not reached the dew-point for the air passing through, you won't get ice as the moisture will not come out of the air. This is why temperature, either carb or OAT, is not particularly useful for determining icing conditions. Certainly you cannot have ice when the temps are above 0C but you are not going to have ice below 0C if there is no visible moisture. And carb ice will form only if you have visible moisture *after* the temp drop in the throat of the carb. As I said in a previous post, a temp-only warning is just flat out annoying as it says "wolf" a lot more often that it every gives you useful information. I eventually disabled my carb air temp warning and my OAT warning as they proved to be pretty useless. > Angle-of-Attack sensors are also becoming the rage. You could make another > simple interface to the annunciator panel for high AOA. The problem with annunciator panels is they are not part of the normal scan, especially in VFR operations. I suspect that most people with AoA indicators are going to put the AoA display in their primary scan even when they are 'heads-up' (looking outside). Then the annunciator is not in view and an AoA alert would cause them to look inside. -- Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630 +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . - Antoine de Saint-Exupery ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:14:42 AM PST US From: Mickey Coggins Subject: AeroElectric-List: Annunciator panel LED brightness --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins All this talk about annunciator panels has got me thinking about mine. Looking at the LEDs on eBay, I'm wondering what brightness of LEDs I should use? Anyone have any suggestions? These guys http://www.superbrightleds.com/leds.htm show LEDs from about 1500 mcd up to 18,000 mcd. This offer on eBay shows 27,000 mcd. I'm planning to have the LEDs behind some colored plastic covers. Obviously I'd like them to be visible during the day, and dimmable to something reasonable at night. Not sure how far down a LED can be dimmed. Thanks for any suggestions. -- Mickey Coggins http://www.rv8.ch/ #82007 finishing ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:14:42 AM PST US From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: AeroElectric-List: B&C SSF-1 finally died --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" After 834 hobbs hours of nearly continuous use, my B&C SSF-1 wig-wag flasher died. I can either plunk down another $22 for a drop-in replacement, or I could explore cheaper options. I found a Trident auto flasher that *looks* pretty much identical, but they say it has a "Design Life" of 500 hours. If it's the same as the SSF-1, that would be one way to save about 9 bucks. http://www.midwayautosupply.com/detailedproductdescription.asp?11850 I'm not looking for anything fancy, like the CreativAir setup. I want a 3-wire (+12v, load 1, load 2) drop-in replacement. I wouldn't mind soldering it up myself but I don't have the expertise to "design" one. Will probably go with another B&C SSF-1, but would love to be able to solder-it-myself and/or save some bucks. Any ideas? Thanks in advance, )_( Dan RV-7 N714D (834 hours) http://www.rvproject.com ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:22:07 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RE: Market Survey Phase II From: "George Braly" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "George Braly" Bob, I think it might be better to, initially, group the items into HIGH, MED, LOW priority. I have added a category for " ? " because either I don't understand it, or because it would totally depend upon the installation specific criticality of the function to be alarmed. H = HIGH priority, M = Medium, L = Low, as follows. H Main Volts Lo M Aux Volts Lo M Left Fuel Lo M Right Fuel Lo H Oil Pres Lo H Fuel Pres Lo ? Canopy Latch L OAT Warn L Pitot Heat H Coolant Temp H Coolant Pres H Coolant Low H Oil Temp M Turbo (control malfunction) (yellow) L Boost pump ON (white) H Fire L Flaps Warn L Fuel Pump ON H Starter engaged L P-Mag Maint L Prop Overspeed H Gear extension Warning H Nose Gear H Lt Mn Gear H Rt Mn Gear L Boost Pump ? Baggage Door L Ground Power H ? Chip Detect ? BVC Fault ? Anti-Ice ? Fuel Filter L Oil Filter ? Crossfeed closed Bob . . . < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:32:29 PM PST US From: "David Lloyd" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE: Market Survey Phase II --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Lloyd" I like George's category suggestion and offer my priorities. David > > H = HIGH priority, M = Medium, L = Low, as follows. > > > H Main Volts Lo H Main Volts Hi > > L Aux Volts Lo > > L Left Fuel Lo > > L Right Fuel Lo > > H Oil Pres Lo > > H Fuel Pres Lo > > ? Canopy Latch > > L OAT Warn > > L Pitot Heat > > ? Coolant Temp > > ? Coolant Pres > > ? Coolant Low > > H Oil Temp Hi > > M Turbo (control malfunction) (yellow) > > L Boost pump ON (white) > > H Fire > > L Flaps Warn > > H Fuel Pump ON > > H Starter engaged > > L P-Mag Maint > > L Prop Overspeed > > H Gear extension Warning > > H Nose Gear > > H Lt Mn Gear > > H Rt Mn Gear > > H Boost Pump > > ? Baggage Door > > L Ground Power > > H ? Chip Detect > > ? BVC Fault > > ? Anti-Ice > > ? Fuel Filter > > L Oil Filter > > ? Crossfeed closed ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Braly" Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 10:25 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RE: Market Survey Phase II > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "George Braly" > > > Bob, > > I think it might be better to, initially, group the items into > HIGH, > MED, LOW priority. > > I have added a category for " ? " because either I don't > understand > it, or because it would totally depend upon the installation > specific > criticality of the function to be alarmed. > > > H = HIGH priority, M = Medium, L = Low, as follows. > > > H Main Volts Lo > > M Aux Volts Lo > > M Left Fuel Lo > > M Right Fuel Lo > > H Oil Pres Lo > > H Fuel Pres Lo > > ? Canopy Latch > > L OAT Warn > > L Pitot Heat > > H Coolant Temp > > H Coolant Pres > > H Coolant Low > > H Oil Temp > > M Turbo (control malfunction) (yellow) > > L Boost pump ON (white) > > H Fire > > L Flaps Warn > > L Fuel Pump ON > > H Starter engaged > > L P-Mag Maint > > L Prop Overspeed > > H Gear extension Warning > > H Nose Gear > > H Lt Mn Gear > > H Rt Mn Gear > > L Boost Pump > > ? Baggage Door > > L Ground Power > > H ? Chip Detect > > ? BVC Fault > > ? Anti-Ice > > ? Fuel Filter > > L Oil Filter > > ? Crossfeed closed > > > Bob . . . > > > < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > > < the authority which determines whether there can be > > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > > < with experiment. > > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:38:12 PM PST US From: Jim Michael Subject: AeroElectric-List: Starter problem analysis --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jim Michael I am trying to troubleshoot a problem with the starter on my Stinson. The problem seems to occur only when the engine is hot. When the engine is cold the engine turns over fine. When hot, the starter acts like it's trying to turn and after multiple attempts it will finally start turning over. I've read that this is a low voltage condition and I've taken some voltage readings with the engine cold: Prior to charging battery: 12.38 VDC at the terminals After charging battery: 12.87 VDC at the terminals Battery voltage at terminals while cranking: 10.4 VDC Voltage across starter while cranking: 9.8 VDC Voltage across master and starter solenoid while cranking: < 1 VDC The ground connection consists of a cable from the battery to the engine mount and from another engine mount point to the engine via a ground strap. I plan to take a meter and test leads with me to get some readings the next time the problem arises, but do these readings indicate a problem with the starter or battery? I hope this is the right forum for this question, if not please forgive the intrusion. Thanks, Jim ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:46:20 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: B&C SSF-1 finally died --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 10:10 AM 3/11/2006 -0800, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" > >After 834 hobbs hours of nearly continuous use, my B&C SSF-1 wig-wag flasher >died. I can either plunk down another $22 for a drop-in replacement, or I >could explore cheaper options. > >I found a Trident auto flasher that *looks* pretty much identical, but they >say it has a "Design Life" of 500 hours. If it's the same as the SSF-1, >that would be one way to save about 9 bucks. >http://www.midwayautosupply.com/detailedproductdescription.asp?11850 > >I'm not looking for anything fancy, like the CreativAir setup. I want a >3-wire (+12v, load 1, load 2) drop-in replacement. I wouldn't mind >soldering it up myself but I don't have the expertise to "design" one. Will >probably go with another B&C SSF-1, but would love to be able to >solder-it-myself and/or save some bucks. Any ideas? The SSF-1 is a heavy duty automotive device. I've not researched it in detail but it's a fair bet that the pinout is the same as for other flashers having the same pin size and spacing. Odds are that the item you've cited above (or similar from local parts store) will work. Solder? I thought that 1/4" fast-on tabs fit those flashers. Why is there any soldering involved? As to "saving" money, what's your time worth? You may spend several hours locating a substitute, there is risk (small) that the sub doesn't work, etc. Not trying to talk you out of trying something new and different but if cost is the biggest driver for your decision, the sub may be less than a bargain. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:48:02 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Annunciator panel LED brightness --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 07:07 PM 3/11/2006 +0100, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins > > >All this talk about annunciator panels has got >me thinking about mine. Looking at the LEDs >on eBay, I'm wondering what brightness of >LEDs I should use? Anyone have any suggestions? > >These guys http://www.superbrightleds.com/leds.htm >show LEDs from about 1500 mcd up to 18,000 mcd. >This offer on eBay shows 27,000 mcd. I'm planning >to have the LEDs behind some colored plastic >covers. Obviously I'd like them to be visible >during the day, and dimmable to something reasonable >at night. Not sure how far down a LED can be >dimmed. As bright as you can get. You can always make them less but never make them more. LEDs can be dimmed from any maximum output all the way down to invisible . . . the major problem is that they're CURRENT operated devices, not VOLTAGE. Duty cycle switching at full operating current is the most practical way to dim them (if our annunciator comes into being, it will have a DIM input that tracks the incandescent lamp dimming curve based on voltage. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:36:37 PM PST US From: "David Lloyd" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Starter problem analysis --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Lloyd" Jim, I would suspicious that there is something worn, wrong with the armature and or its bearings. Maybe, some part of windings are loose and expand with heat such that it physically contacts the surrounding structures. Could be just worn bearings that combined with run-out allows the armature to partially jam when hot, but, just clears when cold. David ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Michael" Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 10:43 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Starter problem analysis > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jim Michael > > > I am trying to troubleshoot a problem with the starter on my > Stinson. > The problem seems to occur only when the engine is hot. When the > engine is cold the engine turns over fine. When hot, the starter > acts > like it's trying to turn and after multiple attempts it will finally > start turning over. I've read that this is a low voltage condition > and I've taken some voltage readings with the engine cold: > > Prior to charging battery: 12.38 VDC at the terminals > After charging battery: 12.87 VDC at the terminals > Battery voltage at terminals while cranking: 10.4 VDC > Voltage across starter while cranking: 9.8 VDC > Voltage across master and starter solenoid while cranking: < 1 VDC > > The ground connection consists of a cable from the battery to the > engine mount and from another engine mount point to the engine via a > ground strap. > > I plan to take a meter and test leads with me to get some readings > the > next time the problem arises, but do these readings indicate a > problem with the starter or battery? > > I hope this is the right forum for this question, if not please > forgive the intrusion. > > Thanks, > > Jim > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 03:43:06 PM PST US From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: B&C SSF-1 finally died --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" >>I'm not looking for anything fancy, like the CreativAir setup. I want a >>3-wire (+12v, load 1, load 2) drop-in replacement. I wouldn't mind >>soldering it up myself but I don't have the expertise to "design" one. >>Will >>probably go with another B&C SSF-1, but would love to be able to >>solder-it-myself and/or save some bucks. Any ideas? > > (snip) > > Solder? I thought that 1/4" fast-on tabs fit those > flashers. Why is there any soldering involved? Yeah, 1/4" fast-on tabs do fit. What I meant was that if there was some low-cost "kit" that lets you solder up a circuit that serves the same purpose, I'd be interested in finding out about it. Even if the price was close, I'd probably still prefer the "experience" assembling something myself. Like the magneto timer kit I soldered up. And like the CO sensor kit that I soldered up. I mean, I did build a plane after all...some people buy planes instead of build them because their time is more valuable than experience. Pardon me for extending that logic to minutia like flashers!! > As to "saving" money, what's your time worth? You may > spend several hours locating a substitute, there is > risk (small) that the sub doesn't work, etc. Not trying > to talk you out of trying something new and different > but if cost is the biggest driver for your decision, > the sub may be less than a bargain. Agreed. I was just researching options. I appreciate the single data point that you've now given me, that the SSF-1 is the best option in your opinion. do not archive )_( Dan RV-7 N714D http://www.rvproject.com ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 03:43:06 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE: Market Survey Phase II --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Understand, but not helpful. If one is going to do a statistical analysis on data, the data have to be offered in the same form by every participant. What I need is a 1 to 12 listing of the most important items. If you want to call your "H" items 1-4 and "M" items 5-7 and "L" times 8-12, that's fine too but the responses useful to me will be numbered. It's interesting that out of the 10 responses received so far, only 4 are useful to the task at hand. Bob . . . At 02:26 PM 3/11/2006 -0800, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Lloyd" > >I like George's category suggestion and offer my priorities. >David > > > > H = HIGH priority, M = Medium, L = Low, as follows. > > > > > > H Main Volts Lo > H Main Volts Hi > > > > L Aux Volts Lo > > > > L Left Fuel Lo > > > > L Right Fuel Lo > > > > H Oil Pres Lo > > > > H Fuel Pres Lo > > > > ? Canopy Latch > > > > L OAT Warn > > > > L Pitot Heat > > > > ? Coolant Temp > > > > ? Coolant Pres > > > > ? Coolant Low > > > > H Oil Temp Hi > > > > M Turbo (control malfunction) (yellow) > > > > L Boost pump ON (white) > > > > H Fire > > > > L Flaps Warn > > > > H Fuel Pump ON > > > > H Starter engaged > > > > L P-Mag Maint > > > > L Prop Overspeed > > > > H Gear extension Warning > > > > H Nose Gear > > > > H Lt Mn Gear > > > > H Rt Mn Gear > > > > H Boost Pump > > > > ? Baggage Door > > > > L Ground Power > > > > H ? Chip Detect > > > > ? BVC Fault > > > > ? Anti-Ice > > > > ? Fuel Filter > > > > L Oil Filter > > > > ? Crossfeed closed ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 04:03:16 PM PST US From: Mickey Coggins Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Annunciator panel LED brightness --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins > > As bright as you can get. You can always make them > less but never make them more. Thanks. I ordered a bunch of the 40,000 mcd LEDs, holders, and resistors from these guys: http://www.besthongkong.com/ Pretty good prices. -- Mickey Coggins http://www.rv8.ch/ #82007 finishing do not archive ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 04:37:57 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: p-mag wiring From: Erich_Weaver@URSCorp.com --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Erich_Weaver@URSCorp.com Bob: My level of electrical knowledge is pretty limited, but is it possible that Figure Z-33 in the 'Connection showing wiring for P-mags has an error? Z-33 has the p-mag wires labeled by color (grn, red orn, and blk). Power appears to be supplied to the p-mag from the bat bus through the "orn" wire when the 2-10 switch is in the up position. Comparing to the e-magair manual - see pgs 4 and 15 in http://www.emagair.com/Manual%20L113v8.pdf the manual seems to indicate that +13.8V power would be supplied by the red wire (postion 5 on the control plug), and that the "orn" wire (position 4 on the plug) is the P-lead to ground (NOT power). The blk and grn wires are for ground and tach respectively, consistent with Z-33. Did I catch you, or am I just too hung up on wire colors? While I got you cornered (?), I am unclear on how the additional switch you suggest for ign maintenance would be used. When closed, it appears to supply power from the bat bus to the p-mags while the two ignition switches are in the off position. Okay, but what does this do for me? still learning... Erich Weaver This e-mail and any attachments are confidential. If you receive this message in error or are not the intended recipient, you should not retain, distribute, disclose or use any of this information and you should destroy the e-mail and any attachments or copies. ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 05:42:00 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: B&C SSF-1 finally died From: "John Schroeder" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Schroeder" Dan - Which CO kit did you build? Where to get it? How much? Thanks, John Schroeder On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 15:41:38 -0800, Dan Checkoway wrote: > And like the CO sensor > kit that I soldered up. I mean, I did build a plane after all... -- ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 06:34:05 PM PST US From: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Annuciator Lights Suggestion --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" How about: Gattling Guns Blazing or, Bombs Away ;-) Sorry I couldn't resist. ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 07:16:08 PM PST US From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: B&C SSF-1 finally died --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" > Which CO kit did you build? Where to get it? How much? http://www.electronic-kits-and-projects.com/4055.htm I did a group buy with a bunch of local RV builders, so we took advantage of the 5+ discount and the int'l shipping ended up being essentially negligible. Soldered it up and tested it with my truck exhaust, acetone vapor, etc. It seems to work as advertised, although I have to admit I haven't even installed it in the plane yet! (doh!) )_( Dan RV-7 N714D http://www.rvproject.com ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 08:26:25 PM PST US From: Fiveonepw@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Annunciator panel LED brightness --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com If you folks are really interested in a cheap (pretty sure I have less than $30 in the thing), very effective annunciator panel, this has worked out very well for me- after almost 300 hours I haven't missed a single "annunciation" and couldn't be happier with the reliability, brightness, or anything else for that matter of this very basic, functional and easy to build project: http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/index.php?q=log_entry&log_id=5130 Scroll backwards and forwards through the log entrys for the whole story. I you want a custom a-panel at minimum cost, and a fun, interesting project to put together, this silly little thing definately fit the bill for me..... >From The PossumWorks in TN Mark Phillips ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 10:22:01 PM PST US From: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Lightspeed Ignition with Key switch --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" I've been looking at my drawings one more time before actually wiring this up. I have one (Slick) magneto and one Lightspeed Plasma II+. I was hoping to hook them BOTH to the standard aircraft key switch (A-510-2) but in looking at it again, I'm not sure that will work. If I connect the Plasma II+ at the key switch ground (GRD) and the "R" terminal I have a usable connection. If however, I want to also connect the Left Magneto P-lead to the switch then I have to connect the center conductor of the magneto P-lead to the "L" terminal and the "P" Lead shield to the switch "GRD" connection. The only problem with this is that the other end of the magneto P-lead shield will have to be grounded out at the magneto case which, I believe, would effectively ground it to the airframe and battery negative potential. According to a note on Lightspeed's connection diagram, the Plasma II+ key switch wiring can NOT be connected to airframe ground. So...it appears to me that I cannot connect both the Plasma II+ and a magneto P-lead to the same key switch!? For you folks running this same set up, do I understand this correctly or am I missing something? Thanks. Dean Psiropoulos RV-6A N197DM Autocad psychosis ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 10:24:31 PM PST US From: "Chris & Kellie Hand" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: B&C SSF-1 finally died --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Chris & Kellie Hand" Dan, I installed mine (first one - zero hours) a couple weeks ago and wrote down the part identification info before gluing that side of the flasher to the mounting plate. Haven't tried any auto parts stores to see if they carry a replacement, but it was identified as: TRIDON EL13 A-2 ALT/FLASHER 150 W/channel, +12 V SAE J105 1254C2 Chris Hand RV-6A, N731CK (reserved) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Checkoway" Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 10:10 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: B&C SSF-1 finally died > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" > > > After 834 hobbs hours of nearly continuous use, my B&C SSF-1 wig-wag > flasher > died. I can either plunk down another $22 for a drop-in replacement, or I > could explore cheaper options. > > I found a Trident auto flasher that *looks* pretty much identical, but > they > say it has a "Design Life" of 500 hours. If it's the same as the SSF-1, > that would be one way to save about 9 bucks. > http://www.midwayautosupply.com/detailedproductdescription.asp?11850 > > I'm not looking for anything fancy, like the CreativAir setup. I want a > 3-wire (+12v, load 1, load 2) drop-in replacement. I wouldn't mind > soldering it up myself but I don't have the expertise to "design" one. > Will > probably go with another B&C SSF-1, but would love to be able to > solder-it-myself and/or save some bucks. Any ideas? > > Thanks in advance, > )_( Dan > RV-7 N714D (834 hours) > http://www.rvproject.com > > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 10:56:49 PM PST US From: "Chris & Kellie Hand" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: B&C SSF-1 finally died --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Chris & Kellie Hand" Additional data: Trico lists the EL13A-2 flasher (B&C's SSF-1 if I read the part numbers correctly) as the one recommended for alternating head lamps with a service life of 400 hours: http://www.tricoproducts.com/brochure.cfm?brochure=289&location_id=129&go=preset210trico Trico lists the EL13A-1 flasher (the one at the midway link in Dan's email) as a 500 hour service life and lists the emergency flasher as recommended application but doesn't mention head lamps as a recommended application: http://www.tricoproducts.com/brochure.cfm?brochure=288&location_id=129&go=preset209trico I did find the EL13A-2 flasher on the midway web site for $12.99 and they list "wig-wag headlights" as the application : http://www.midwayautosupply.com/searchby.asp?txtSearch=TRI-EL13A-2 Chris Hand ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris & Kellie Hand" Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 10:23 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: B&C SSF-1 finally died > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Chris & Kellie Hand" > > > Dan, > I installed mine (first one - zero hours) a couple weeks ago and wrote > down > the part identification info before gluing that side of the flasher to the > mounting plate. Haven't tried any auto parts stores to see if they carry > a > replacement, but it was identified as: > > TRIDON EL13 A-2 > ALT/FLASHER > 150 W/channel, +12 V > SAE J105 > 1254C2 > > > Chris Hand > RV-6A, N731CK (reserved) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dan Checkoway" > To: > Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 10:10 AM > Subject: AeroElectric-List: B&C SSF-1 finally died > > >> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" >> >> >> After 834 hobbs hours of nearly continuous use, my B&C SSF-1 wig-wag >> flasher >> died. I can either plunk down another $22 for a drop-in replacement, or >> I >> could explore cheaper options. >> >> I found a Trident auto flasher that *looks* pretty much identical, but >> they >> say it has a "Design Life" of 500 hours. If it's the same as the SSF-1, >> that would be one way to save about 9 bucks. >> http://www.midwayautosupply.com/detailedproductdescription.asp?11850 >> >> I'm not looking for anything fancy, like the CreativAir setup. I want a >> 3-wire (+12v, load 1, load 2) drop-in replacement. I wouldn't mind >> soldering it up myself but I don't have the expertise to "design" one. >> Will >> probably go with another B&C SSF-1, but would love to be able to >> solder-it-myself and/or save some bucks. Any ideas? >> >> Thanks in advance, >> )_( Dan >> RV-7 N714D (834 hours) >> http://www.rvproject.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 11:09:17 PM PST US From: Mickey Coggins Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Annunciator panel LED brightness --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins > If you folks are really interested in a cheap (pretty sure I have less than > $30 in the thing), very effective annunciator panel, this has worked out very > well for me- after almost 300 hours I haven't missed a single "annunciation" > and couldn't be happier with the reliability, brightness, or anything else for > that matter of this very basic, functional and easy to build project: > > http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/index.php?q=log_entry&log_id=5130 > Mark, Very nice work. If I understand the drawing and the log entries, you have set up two positions for the annunciator - bright and dim - is this right? Is the timer module to cause the low fuel lights to flash? If you don't mind sending me the .dwg that would be great. I can't quite read all the part numbers. Thanks, -- Mickey Coggins http://www.rv8.ch/ #82007 finishing do not archive