Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:22 AM - Re: Batt Charger/voltmeter/ammeter/temp (Vision287)
2. 05:54 AM - Re: 5V regulated supply (Dan Beadle)
3. 05:58 AM - Re: 5V regulated supply (Ken)
4. 05:58 AM - Re: Avionics Dealer References (Greg Vouga)
5. 06:23 AM - Re: 5V regulated supply (Tim Olson)
6. 07:03 AM - Re: 5V regulated supply (Ken)
7. 07:03 AM - Re: Batt Charger/voltmeter/ammeter/temp (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
8. 07:12 AM - Re: 5V regulated supply (Brian Lloyd)
9. 07:51 AM - Re: Batt Charger/voltmeter/ammeter/temp (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
10. 08:58 AM - Re: Batt Charger/voltmeter/ammeter/temp (Brian Lloyd)
11. 09:11 AM - Re: Batt Charger/voltmeter/ammeter/temp (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
12. 10:46 AM - Re: 5V regulated supply (Tim Olson)
13. 10:56 AM - Re: Batt Charger/voltmeter/ammeter/temp (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
14. 11:39 AM - Z-19 questions (John Burnaby)
15. 11:40 AM - Re: 5V regulated supply (Brian Lloyd)
16. 11:41 AM - Re: 5V regulated supply (Tim Olson)
17. 09:57 PM - Landing Light Circuit? ()
18. 09:59 PM - Capacitor with solder on connectors? ()
Message 1
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| Subject: | RE: Batt Charger/voltmeter/ammeter/temp |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Vision287" <vision287@earthlink.net>
Hello Stan,
I have no experience with the Kisan battery charger system.
I have a Deltran Corp 4 Bank Battery Tender Charging Station for my boat
batteries, lawnmower, and Harley. Mine does not have the voltmeter /
ammeter / temp gauge built-in. I choose this manufacturer because their
literature says you can charge AGM (absorbed glass matte), sealed
maintenance free and flooded batteries.
http://batterytender.com/
Sincerely,
Mark A. Naig
<<snip>>
Time: 07:43:31 PM PST US
From: Speedy11@aol.com
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Batt Charger/voltmeter/ammeter/temp
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Speedy11@aol.com
Listers,
Anyone have experience with this product?
http://www.customdynamics.com/kisan-battery-charger.htm
Is it any good?
Stan Sutterfield
Message 2
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| Subject: | 5V regulated supply |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Beadle" <Dan.Beadle@hq.InclineSoftworks.com>
With a linear regulator, you want to drop 3A from 14V to 5V. That is 9*3
or 27 Watts. That is the heat released by a small to medium soldering
iron.
You could to it with a T0-3 package of a linear regulator (see Digikey),
but a switcher would be much more efficient.
Assuming 80% efficiency, you would only lose about 3 watts in heat.
Your system would only draw about 1 amp from the ships power.
You can build your own with a PCB from National Semiconductor. Their
WorkBench lets you design the parameters you want, then buy a kit of
parts. A kit is about $30.
Dan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim
Olson
Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 9:09 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: 5V regulated supply
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
I'm looking to build/buy a simple regulated supply for my normally
AC powered Audio/Video players for in the airplane. I could use
an inverter, and then their AC supplies, but what I'd prefer
to do is just take the 12V in, and get 5V out. I just tried using
the 7805 3-pin T0-220 regulator from Radio Shack (was unable to use
a heatsink in the test), and one of them wouldn't push enough
current to drive one of my 2 devices. 2 of them in parallel would
drive it, but it wouldn't play through a movie.
Is there some heavier duty package that has worked well for people
in the past? I'd like to make it portable, so I can take it in
the car.
In the end, I'll have 1 lighter plug, driving 2 LCD headrest
monitors, 1 video splitter, and 2 MP3/Video players.
One of the players had an AC supply that says 5V@1A, and the
other says 5V@2A, so I would have thought the 7805 had a
fighting chance, but I guess that's with a heatsink or something.
Tim
--
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: 5V regulated supply |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
Hi Tim
I do agree with Brian as it sounds like you will probably need several
7805's and outlets to use them. Many folks opt for cigarette lighters
and a 12 volt adapter if available for entertainment devices. Those
adapters are likely linear regulators.
7805 devices are linear regulators so drawing an amp through one
requires it to dissipate 1 amp times the voltage drop. 14 volts to 5
volts is 9 volts times one amp or 9 watts. Twice that for 2 amps etc. So
you definitely need a good heatsink. An aluminum airframe has lots of
heatsink available. The TO-3 package will usually handle more current
than the TO-220 parts but they are harder to mount. I would not
recommend feeding 5 volts to a conventional cigarette lighter outlet
though as sooner or later someone will plug in something that wants 12
volts. AFAIK all the 78xx packages have overheat protection and will
(most of the time) shut off if overheated. They will also sometimes do
strange things if you don't use the recommended capacitors with them. My
vague recollection is 1 amp or so from a TO-220 part, 3 amps from a
TO-3, and 5 amps from a larger part (LM350?).
Ken
Brian Lloyd wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
>
>Tim Olson wrote:
>
>
>
>>One of the players had an AC supply that says 5V@1A, and the
>>other says 5V@2A, so I would have thought the 7805 had a
>>fighting chance, but I guess that's with a heatsink or something.
>>
>>
>
>Yes. If you look around you can find 12V-in-5V-out switching supplies.
>That is what you really want.
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Avionics Dealer References |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Greg Vouga" <gmvouga@hotmail.com>
Thanks to all who responded. It seems that Stark Avionics, SteinAir, and
Affordable Panels all have great reputations within the group. I called
Stark a month or so ago requesting a quote and spoke to John directly. He
was very helpful on the phone and seemed to have very competitive prices. I
have not checked out the other two guys yet, but I plan on giving them a
call before I make my final decision in a couple weeks.
Thanks Again,
Greg
RV-7A
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: 5V regulated supply |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
Thanks for the suggestions, guys. Time is a factor too as I'm
hoping to use this all on the way to Sun-N-Fun.
So far I see these as options:
http://www.powerstream.com/dda.htm
http://www.powerstream.com/mini-itx.htm
The national semiconductor kit is appealing too, although once you
get to $30 it starts to make sense to buy a completed unit if
possible
I'm starting to lean back towards just buying another inverter
to dedicate to the plane, since it would be pretty flexible
for many uses, and is something I can just grab locally.
The largest concern with this whole project, and the reason
I wanted to build it, is that I want to ensure that the power
to the video/audio box is at the same ground potential
as the plane's system. I used a radio shack multi-output
lighter plug the other day with my old MP3 player and got
a nasty ground loop whine when I had the thing plugged in.
On batteries it was great. My concern is that perhaps with
an inverter or with a prebuilt converter that I won't have
a common ground potential.
Thanks for the tips thus far.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Dan Beadle wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Beadle" <Dan.Beadle@hq.InclineSoftworks.com>
>
> With a linear regulator, you want to drop 3A from 14V to 5V. That is 9*3
> or 27 Watts. That is the heat released by a small to medium soldering
> iron.
>
> You could to it with a T0-3 package of a linear regulator (see Digikey),
> but a switcher would be much more efficient.
>
> Assuming 80% efficiency, you would only lose about 3 watts in heat.
> Your system would only draw about 1 amp from the ships power.
>
> You can build your own with a PCB from National Semiconductor. Their
> WorkBench lets you design the parameters you want, then buy a kit of
> parts. A kit is about $30.
>
> Dan
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim
> Olson
> Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 9:09 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: 5V regulated supply
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
>
> I'm looking to build/buy a simple regulated supply for my normally
> AC powered Audio/Video players for in the airplane. I could use
> an inverter, and then their AC supplies, but what I'd prefer
> to do is just take the 12V in, and get 5V out. I just tried using
> the 7805 3-pin T0-220 regulator from Radio Shack (was unable to use
> a heatsink in the test), and one of them wouldn't push enough
> current to drive one of my 2 devices. 2 of them in parallel would
> drive it, but it wouldn't play through a movie.
>
> Is there some heavier duty package that has worked well for people
> in the past? I'd like to make it portable, so I can take it in
> the car.
>
> In the end, I'll have 1 lighter plug, driving 2 LCD headrest
> monitors, 1 video splitter, and 2 MP3/Video players.
>
> One of the players had an AC supply that says 5V@1A, and the
> other says 5V@2A, so I would have thought the 7805 had a
> fighting chance, but I guess that's with a heatsink or something.
>
> Tim
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: 5V regulated supply |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
Tim
That intrigues me if you really had a ground loop whine with the device
grounded to the cig lighter plug. Was it in sync with the strobes or
transponder? My metal cig lighter outlets are mounted on a metal
instrument panel and I wondered if I might have to in the future
insulate them for some devices. I thought that was unlikely as most
everything goes to a common ground point in my machine. If you really
have a ground loop issue then I would expect it to still be there with
an inverter plugged into the same place although I guess extra
components in the inverter etc. might filter the noise out.
I would not expect a problem if the entertainment devices are insulated
from the airframe with no local grounds. ie insulate the device and run
both power and ground wires back to the cig lighter plug. My next step
would be to insulate the cig lighter outlet ground from the airframe if
you think the noise is being picked up in the ground between the outlet
and the common airframe grounding point/battery/alternator. You can get
plastic outlets from marinas but they don't seem to retain the plug very
well. Might be easier to filter the power I suppose.
Ken
Tim Olson wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
>
>Thanks for the suggestions, guys. Time is a factor too as I'm
>hoping to use this all on the way to Sun-N-Fun.
>So far I see these as options:
>http://www.powerstream.com/dda.htm
>http://www.powerstream.com/mini-itx.htm
>The national semiconductor kit is appealing too, although once you
>get to $30 it starts to make sense to buy a completed unit if
>possible
>
>I'm starting to lean back towards just buying another inverter
>to dedicate to the plane, since it would be pretty flexible
>for many uses, and is something I can just grab locally.
>
>The largest concern with this whole project, and the reason
>I wanted to build it, is that I want to ensure that the power
>to the video/audio box is at the same ground potential
>as the plane's system. I used a radio shack multi-output
>lighter plug the other day with my old MP3 player and got
>a nasty ground loop whine when I had the thing plugged in.
>On batteries it was great. My concern is that perhaps with
>an inverter or with a prebuilt converter that I won't have
>a common ground potential.
>
>Thanks for the tips thus far.
>
>Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
>do not archive
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Batt Charger/voltmeter/ammeter/temp |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 10:35 PM 3/16/2006 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Speedy11@aol.com
>
>Listers,
>Anyone have experience with this product?
>http://www.customdynamics.com/kisan-battery-charger.htm
>Is it any good?
Without having one in hand to test against its marketing
hype any degree of 'goodness' cannot be assigned.
Something to consider in the selection and acquisition
of battery chargers:
The majority of us want to use our airplanes just like
we use our cars and lawnmowers. Pull it out of parking,
use it, put it away. All machines have requirements for
operation (lubrication, fuel, functionality of components
like ignition and carburetors) along with some nice but
not necessary activities like keeping it clean, touching
up the rust spots, etc.
When you move past the pull-it-out-use-it-put-it-away
activities, it's useful to consider additions to cost-
of-ownership for the way in which one invests $time$ on
that piece of hardware.
Batteries: There's been a ton of discussion on the List
and elsewhere about the finer points of selecting, purchasing,
and using batteries along with recommendations for tools
(chargers, cap testers, load testers) and system integration
(regulators, temp compensation, charge current monitoring, etc).
If one reads the fine print on any battery manufacturer's
data sheets . . . he learns about the more esoteric points
of achieving maximum performance from the battery. Do a study
of the functionality of components of the charging system
and we get another set of gee-whiz features purported to
optimize functionality of the component (and convince you
that investing your $time$ on that component is a good
thing to do). Finally, we can read the various maintenance
manuals for lawnmowers, automobiles and airplanes. Here we
we hope to find a system integrator's attempt to pick and choose
from the various fine points of selection, operation and
maintenance of the battery for a well defined repeatable
experiment: Maximize utility of battery while minimizing
$time$ to own it.
Without a doubt, the vast majority of gee-whiz features
for all the products will deliver what they promise. The
questions for us as systems integrators and users of those
products should consider, "What amount of $time$ should
I expend in the ownership of the battery and tools to
use/maintain it such that the cost of ownership ($time per
flight hour) is minimized?"
Here's where the rubber hits the road. The aviation
community is not unique in that there's a ton of information
but supportive and derogatory about any/all of the
components being considered. Here's how my thoughts on
batteries have evolved over the years:
When I started writing for the OBAM aviation community
in 1987, flooded batteries were king. OBAM aircraft
carried a huge variety of products ranging from motor-cycle
batteries to qualified aircraft batteries having a huge
variability in $time$ of ownership. B&C was just starting
to investigate various vent-regulated products including
gell cells from Sonnenschein to the earliest RG jelly-roll
cells from Gates. Some showed promise, others (Gates) were
discarded. Over the intervening 20 years, the vent-regulated
(sealed) battery products have matured to the point where
there are few "gotchas" in battery selection and many
capable products to choose from.
Once you drag your battery purchase home and stick it
in the airplane, the obvious lowest expenditure of
$time$ to own it is, "pull it out, use it, and put it
away until it dies." Works fine for day-vfr-no-ClassA/B
operation. Once we begin to depend on the battery for
more than engine cranking and alternator stabilization,
the need to consider quantity of stored energy surfaces.
Okay, how much $time$ is necessary to maintain a battery
at or above minimum performance levels? If one purchases
a premium battery, the owner/operator is compelled to
consider extra-ordinary tools and charging system design
features selected to optimize battery life. So on top
of $time$ to acquire the premium battery, we add
$time$ to acquire system features and maintenance
tools on top of which we pile more $time$ to utilize
those tools in the quest for getting our money's worth
out of the battery.
A few years ago, I began suggesting that you purchase the
least expensive battery you can find and replace it every
annual. Hmmmm . . . no special charging system considerations,
no maintenance tools, just drag it out, use it, put it away.
If one flies 100 hrs/year, battery reserve can be as low
as 40 cents per hour plus perhaps one $hour$ per year to
acquire new, change out old, and dispose of old battery into
the recycle stream.
Now, put a $100 battery in the airplane and you're
definitely more interested in KNOWING when it's time to
replace it. Now you spend $time$ to acquire the tools
and use them with some notion of getting the most from
your battery purchase dollar.
Will a $175 battery charger help you do this? Probably
not. When you taxi up to the parking place after a flight
the battery should be charged. The most functionality you
can expect from a $high$ charger is to "maintain" the
battery. Useful only when your next flight is months
away. A $40 wall-wart maintainer will do just
fine. Of course, if one goes months between flights, your
average duration of flights needs to be exceedingly long
to drive your battery reserve price down toward 40-cents/hr.
Okay, how about capacity? Hmmmm . . . real capacity testers
can be as inexpensive (and loosely calibrated) as the
scheme described in the battery chapter of the 'Connection.
Or, one might opt for very sophisticated but inexpensive
tools like the device at:
http://westmountainradio.com/CBA_ham.htm
Okay, assuming you have a capacity measurement system of
some kind, now you factor in the $time$ for acquiring
the test equipment and $time$ required to periodically
exercise the equipment with the notion of driving down
battery costs while in fact, cost of battery ownership is
driven upward.
I have a raft of chargers here in my shop, most of which
are wall-wart maintainers that keep my instrumentation
batteries ready to go. I have various samples of super
chargers all of which claim to correctly massage batteries
based on manufacturing technology. Some claim to "desulphate"
as well . . . a feature I've yet to quantify for improving
on cost of ownership.
Super-whizzy battery chargers can strut their stuff only
when used to recharge deeply discharged batteries like
for golf carts and trolling motors. We put our car,
lawnmower, and airplanes away with the batteries at or
near fully charged. I'll suggest that if one should worry
about battery charging techniques and tools, we should
concentrate on what's in the vehicle, not what's plugged into
the hangar wall.
The study document on the MC33092 regulator chip is nearly
complete . . . in that document, we'll explore some of the
finer points of on-board battery maintenance systems along
with an illustration of how one sorts marketing hype from
features that reduce $time$/hr for owning, operating and
maintaining the system.
Getting back to your original question Stan:
I have three or four chargers in the shop that I purchased
to explore their claims and see if they had value in
helping me lower the cost of ownership for batteries.
I can tell you that my oldest battery charger is 30+
year old device with a low (10A) setting and a boost
(50A) setting. No voltage regulation of any kind.
I've used it perhaps 30 times in 30 years
to get a vehicle running when I inadvertently ran the
battery down. It's the crudest of charging systems with
the simplest of demands for functionality. Even my
super-whizzy chargers won't help me crank an engine . . .
not enough output. I can hook up one of supper-whizzy
chargers and come back in an hour . . . but the beat
up old dog of a charger keeps me from being late for work.
I'll suggest that anyone's characterization of the
charger you cited as "good" will have little to do with
your ability to realize $175 worth of utility. It's
sort of like buying an electron microscope to help you
tweeze splinters from a finger. I'll suggest that
a product like . . .
http://www.batterygiant.com/BatteryByProductCode/BMC-12612A
or
http://www.batterytender.com/default.php?cPath=11_3
will yield a much greater return on investment and
lower the cost of ownership for batteries used in your
airplane. Anything you do beyond this takes a lot
of carefully controlled studies to determine how much
the most optimized schedule of battery pampering will
extend the service life of your battery. It's almost
a sure bet that the total $time$ needed to squeeze the
last service-hour out of any battery will produce
battery reserve costs far greater than 40 cents per
flight hour.
Bob . . .
-------------------------------------------
< Sometimes the best way to drive a nail >
< is with a hammer. >
< R. Nuckolls >
--------------------------------------------
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: 5V regulated supply |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
>
>...
> One of the players had an AC supply that says 5V@1A, and the
> other says 5V@2A, so I would have thought the 7805 had a
> fighting chance, but I guess that's with a heatsink or something.
Just for grins I did a search on Google. Seems that Mouser has several
that might work for you. Mouser is having a blow-out on discontinued C&D
switching DC-DC converters. Prices for a complete power supply capable
of delivering 25A at 5V are in the $10 range. There are also other
manufacturers.
Give the time and effort needed to build something vs. just buy a
high-quality DC-DC converter, I think the answer is pretty clearly "buy".
Give Mouser a call and tell them you need a 12V-in 5V-out supply that
can be isolated or non-isolated. You should be able to find something at
under $30.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 9
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| Subject: | Batt Charger/voltmeter/ammeter/temp |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder@sausen.net>
So I guess your answer is you don't have experience with it and you don't know
if it's any good. Sorry Bob, not trying to give you a hard time but a book
chapter on a subject that you have already given your views on is a bit much in
my opinion. But it is your forum.
However I do have experience with this device. I used one on my Harley for about
a year or two to keep it charged between the periods you can ride a air cooled
bike in Texas. It worked fine until one day it smoked (my technical term
for stopped functioning correctly). Don't know why, didn't really care, and
I replaced it with a Battery Tender JR. YMMV.
Michael Sausen
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 9:01 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Batt Charger/voltmeter/ammeter/temp
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
--> <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 10:35 PM 3/16/2006 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Speedy11@aol.com
>
>Listers,
>Anyone have experience with this product?
>http://www.customdynamics.com/kisan-battery-charger.htm
>Is it any good?
Without having one in hand to test against its marketing
hype any degree of 'goodness' cannot be assigned.
Something to consider in the selection and acquisition
of battery chargers:
The majority of us want to use our airplanes just like
we use our cars and lawnmowers. Pull it out of parking,
use it, put it away. All machines have requirements for
operation (lubrication, fuel, functionality of components
like ignition and carburetors) along with some nice but
not necessary activities like keeping it clean, touching
up the rust spots, etc.
When you move past the pull-it-out-use-it-put-it-away
activities, it's useful to consider additions to cost-
of-ownership for the way in which one invests $time$ on
that piece of hardware.
Batteries: There's been a ton of discussion on the List
and elsewhere about the finer points of selecting, purchasing,
and using batteries along with recommendations for tools
(chargers, cap testers, load testers) and system integration
(regulators, temp compensation, charge current monitoring, etc).
If one reads the fine print on any battery manufacturer's
data sheets . . . he learns about the more esoteric points
of achieving maximum performance from the battery. Do a study
of the functionality of components of the charging system
and we get another set of gee-whiz features purported to
optimize functionality of the component (and convince you
that investing your $time$ on that component is a good
thing to do). Finally, we can read the various maintenance
manuals for lawnmowers, automobiles and airplanes. Here we
we hope to find a system integrator's attempt to pick and choose
from the various fine points of selection, operation and
maintenance of the battery for a well defined repeatable
experiment: Maximize utility of battery while minimizing
$time$ to own it.
Without a doubt, the vast majority of gee-whiz features
for all the products will deliver what they promise. The
questions for us as systems integrators and users of those
products should consider, "What amount of $time$ should
I expend in the ownership of the battery and tools to
use/maintain it such that the cost of ownership ($time per
flight hour) is minimized?"
Here's where the rubber hits the road. The aviation
community is not unique in that there's a ton of information
but supportive and derogatory about any/all of the
components being considered. Here's how my thoughts on
batteries have evolved over the years:
When I started writing for the OBAM aviation community
in 1987, flooded batteries were king. OBAM aircraft
carried a huge variety of products ranging from motor-cycle
batteries to qualified aircraft batteries having a huge
variability in $time$ of ownership. B&C was just starting
to investigate various vent-regulated products including
gell cells from Sonnenschein to the earliest RG jelly-roll
cells from Gates. Some showed promise, others (Gates) were
discarded. Over the intervening 20 years, the vent-regulated
(sealed) battery products have matured to the point where
there are few "gotchas" in battery selection and many
capable products to choose from.
Once you drag your battery purchase home and stick it
in the airplane, the obvious lowest expenditure of
$time$ to own it is, "pull it out, use it, and put it
away until it dies." Works fine for day-vfr-no-ClassA/B
operation. Once we begin to depend on the battery for
more than engine cranking and alternator stabilization,
the need to consider quantity of stored energy surfaces.
Okay, how much $time$ is necessary to maintain a battery
at or above minimum performance levels? If one purchases
a premium battery, the owner/operator is compelled to
consider extra-ordinary tools and charging system design
features selected to optimize battery life. So on top
of $time$ to acquire the premium battery, we add
$time$ to acquire system features and maintenance
tools on top of which we pile more $time$ to utilize
those tools in the quest for getting our money's worth
out of the battery.
A few years ago, I began suggesting that you purchase the
least expensive battery you can find and replace it every
annual. Hmmmm . . . no special charging system considerations,
no maintenance tools, just drag it out, use it, put it away.
If one flies 100 hrs/year, battery reserve can be as low
as 40 cents per hour plus perhaps one $hour$ per year to
acquire new, change out old, and dispose of old battery into
the recycle stream.
Now, put a $100 battery in the airplane and you're
definitely more interested in KNOWING when it's time to
replace it. Now you spend $time$ to acquire the tools
and use them with some notion of getting the most from
your battery purchase dollar.
Will a $175 battery charger help you do this? Probably
not. When you taxi up to the parking place after a flight
the battery should be charged. The most functionality you
can expect from a $high$ charger is to "maintain" the
battery. Useful only when your next flight is months
away. A $40 wall-wart maintainer will do just
fine. Of course, if one goes months between flights, your
average duration of flights needs to be exceedingly long
to drive your battery reserve price down toward 40-cents/hr.
Okay, how about capacity? Hmmmm . . . real capacity testers
can be as inexpensive (and loosely calibrated) as the
scheme described in the battery chapter of the 'Connection.
Or, one might opt for very sophisticated but inexpensive
tools like the device at:
http://westmountainradio.com/CBA_ham.htm
Okay, assuming you have a capacity measurement system of
some kind, now you factor in the $time$ for acquiring
the test equipment and $time$ required to periodically
exercise the equipment with the notion of driving down
battery costs while in fact, cost of battery ownership is
driven upward.
I have a raft of chargers here in my shop, most of which
are wall-wart maintainers that keep my instrumentation
batteries ready to go. I have various samples of super
chargers all of which claim to correctly massage batteries
based on manufacturing technology. Some claim to "desulphate"
as well . . . a feature I've yet to quantify for improving
on cost of ownership.
Super-whizzy battery chargers can strut their stuff only
when used to recharge deeply discharged batteries like
for golf carts and trolling motors. We put our car,
lawnmower, and airplanes away with the batteries at or
near fully charged. I'll suggest that if one should worry
about battery charging techniques and tools, we should
concentrate on what's in the vehicle, not what's plugged into
the hangar wall.
The study document on the MC33092 regulator chip is nearly
complete . . . in that document, we'll explore some of the
finer points of on-board battery maintenance systems along
with an illustration of how one sorts marketing hype from
features that reduce $time$/hr for owning, operating and
maintaining the system.
Getting back to your original question Stan:
I have three or four chargers in the shop that I purchased
to explore their claims and see if they had value in
helping me lower the cost of ownership for batteries.
I can tell you that my oldest battery charger is 30+
year old device with a low (10A) setting and a boost
(50A) setting. No voltage regulation of any kind.
I've used it perhaps 30 times in 30 years
to get a vehicle running when I inadvertently ran the
battery down. It's the crudest of charging systems with
the simplest of demands for functionality. Even my
super-whizzy chargers won't help me crank an engine . . .
not enough output. I can hook up one of supper-whizzy
chargers and come back in an hour . . . but the beat
up old dog of a charger keeps me from being late for work.
I'll suggest that anyone's characterization of the
charger you cited as "good" will have little to do with
your ability to realize $175 worth of utility. It's
sort of like buying an electron microscope to help you
tweeze splinters from a finger. I'll suggest that
a product like . . .
http://www.batterygiant.com/BatteryByProductCode/BMC-12612A
or
http://www.batterytender.com/default.php?cPath=3D11_3
will yield a much greater return on investment and
lower the cost of ownership for batteries used in your
airplane. Anything you do beyond this takes a lot
of carefully controlled studies to determine how much
the most optimized schedule of battery pampering will
extend the service life of your battery. It's almost
a sure bet that the total $time$ needed to squeeze the
last service-hour out of any battery will produce
battery reserve costs far greater than 40 cents per
flight hour.
Bob . . .
-------------------------------------------
< Sometimes the best way to drive a nail >
< is with a hammer. >
< R. Nuckolls >
--------------------------------------------
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Batt Charger/voltmeter/ammeter/temp |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder@sausen.net>
>
>
> So I guess your answer is you don't have experience with it and you don't know
if it's any good.
Well, Bob did not say that. What Bob said is he couldn't comment on that
device because he has no experience with it. This is just plain, honest
fact. What he did say is that it is cheaper to just replace the battery
every year than to buy a fancy charger or buy a special regulator to
better care for the battery. From a reliability and monetary point of
view, I suspect he is right.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 11
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| Subject: | Batt Charger/voltmeter/ammeter/temp |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 09:48 AM 3/17/2006 -0600, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)"
><rvbuilder@sausen.net>
>
>
> So I guess your answer is you don't have experience with it and you
> don't know if it's any good. Sorry Bob, not trying to give you a hard
> time but a book chapter on a subject that you have already given your
> views on is a bit much in my opinion. But it is your forum.
. . . yes, many things I've written recently have
been written many times before in years past. But would you
care to make a guess as to how many of the 1300+ folks on the
List have researched the archives on this topic?
Suppose I had written, "The $175 charger isn't worth the money
you'll have to spend to acquire it." Would you have been
curious as to why I would offer such advice?
> However I do have experience with this device. I used one on my Harley
> for about a year or two to keep it charged between the periods you can
> ride a air cooled bike in Texas. It worked fine until one day it smoked
> (my technical term for stopped functioning correctly). Don't know why,
> didn't really care, and I replaced it with a Battery Tender JR. YMMV.
You seem to have missed the point. You DO have experience
with it and reported that it's "just fine" . . .
The question to be answered is, "did you get $175 in
value from it?" You now report that the $35 Battery
Tender Jr has replaced it. I have three or four
Battery Tenders that work "just fine" for me . . .
and in my analytical response I've suggested that you'll
report the BTJr to be "just fine" too.
I wasn't for a minute suggesting that the supper-whizzy
charger didn't deliver on features offered. I WAS suggesting
that anecdotal responses are not very useful in making
a purchasing decision. Perhaps after some term of experience
with the Battery Tender Jr you can report your findings as
to perceptions of value-received-for-dollars-spent between
the two products. I asked the question but I have no
first-hand experience upon which to answer. As a user of both
products, your first-hand findings will be a useful addition
to my analytical approach. For the price of one supper-whizzy
charger you could buy 4 Battery Tenders. What's your take
on return on investment between the two choices?
Bob . . .
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: 5V regulated supply |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
Well, the ground loop in my case, I think it more like this:
(I called PS Engineering to verify)
The power is at airframe ground potential. The Audio panel also
grounds the barrels and shields to the same potential. But now,
if you use a DC-DC converter that's isolated, sure it puts out
5V between the 2 wires, but that voltage can often be many volts
above source input from a ground potential viewpoint. So
You might have ground = +8V and Power = +13V. Yes, it's 5V, but
the grounds are not equal. So then there's the potential
difference between the shield or barrel on the output wire
of the audio jack on the MP3 player, to the potential of the
barrel or shield on the audio panel when you plug them together,
and THAT's where the problems occur. It's not so much of
a "ground loop" issue, as it is a ground potential issue.
If you built a simple 3-pin regulator at the same ground potential,
you shouldn't have that problem....or, if you make sure your
DC-DC converter is not isolated from ground on the output it should
work too. You can buy them various ways.
The noise I had didn't increase with RPM or anything else....it was
more of a gradually increasing screech that got louder and louder
until you couldn't listen to it anymore.
One side note....I have both Bose headsets and other headsets with
ANR upgrade kits in them. I have ANR power jacks in the plane
that run 9V via a DC-DC converter. It's an isolated converter.
It works great with those headsets, but Bose internally wires
their grounds a bit different, using the signal ground to carry
the power ground as well. I originally the power source for
the bose coming off those other isolated ANR jacks, but it didn't
work. As soon as I moved them to be on the same ground potential
as the rest of the system, and didn't attach to the other isolated
jacks, my headsets worked. So there is truth to how this
works. I just don't have a lot of time for shopping.
Thanks Brian though for passing on the mouser info. I'll try to surf
them up today. Hopefully I can get this done quick.
Tim
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Ken wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
>
> Tim
>
> That intrigues me if you really had a ground loop whine with the device
> grounded to the cig lighter plug. Was it in sync with the strobes or
> transponder? My metal cig lighter outlets are mounted on a metal
> instrument panel and I wondered if I might have to in the future
> insulate them for some devices. I thought that was unlikely as most
> everything goes to a common ground point in my machine. If you really
> have a ground loop issue then I would expect it to still be there with
> an inverter plugged into the same place although I guess extra
> components in the inverter etc. might filter the noise out.
>
> I would not expect a problem if the entertainment devices are insulated
> from the airframe with no local grounds. ie insulate the device and run
> both power and ground wires back to the cig lighter plug. My next step
> would be to insulate the cig lighter outlet ground from the airframe if
> you think the noise is being picked up in the ground between the outlet
> and the common airframe grounding point/battery/alternator. You can get
> plastic outlets from marinas but they don't seem to retain the plug very
> well. Might be easier to filter the power I suppose.
>
> Ken
>
> Tim Olson wrote:
>
>> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
>>
>> Thanks for the suggestions, guys. Time is a factor too as I'm
>> hoping to use this all on the way to Sun-N-Fun.
>> So far I see these as options:
>> http://www.powerstream.com/dda.htm
>> http://www.powerstream.com/mini-itx.htm
>> The national semiconductor kit is appealing too, although once you
>> get to $30 it starts to make sense to buy a completed unit if
>> possible
>>
>> I'm starting to lean back towards just buying another inverter
>> to dedicate to the plane, since it would be pretty flexible
>> for many uses, and is something I can just grab locally.
>>
>> The largest concern with this whole project, and the reason
>> I wanted to build it, is that I want to ensure that the power
>> to the video/audio box is at the same ground potential
>> as the plane's system. I used a radio shack multi-output
>> lighter plug the other day with my old MP3 player and got
>> a nasty ground loop whine when I had the thing plugged in.
>> On batteries it was great. My concern is that perhaps with
>> an inverter or with a prebuilt converter that I won't have
>> a common ground potential.
>>
>> Thanks for the tips thus far.
>>
>> Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
>> do not archive
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Batt Charger/voltmeter/ammeter/temp |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder@sausen.net>
Bob Said:
You seem to have missed the point. You DO have experience
with it and reported that it's "just fine" . . .
The question to be answered is, "did you get $175 in
value from it?"
Actually, I got about $55 worth of value from it as that is the actual cost of
the charger, depending on where you get it from. The gee-whiz meter functions
are not required for it to function and is an add on to the charging function
or it can be bought as a package as you have quoted.
Like I said not trying to give you a hard time on it, just feel a dissertation
to answer a simple question (at least in this forum) is a bit overkill when you
have enlightened us many times before. I even went with the Battery Tender
based on your recommendations. One other comment, if you don't feel people are
intelligent enough to follow the rules of the forum, and thereby check the archives
prior to asking a question, might be worth while to ask Matt to turn off
the archive function for this list. I'm sure he would love to recoup the space.
do not archive
Message 14
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Burnaby" <jonlaury@impulse.net>
1. Why is there a 7A fuse between the main power distribution bus and the E-bus?
The loads on the E bus are all fused.
2. The schematic shows alternate feeds for an ECU and fuel pump. I will have dual
Light speed ignition, dual fuel pumps, and one EFI. To accomodate this, do
I tap into the upstream legs supplying the dual diode feeds and add another dual
diode feed, each, for the 2nd pump and ignition?
3. I want to have a dual feed, from Main & Engine batt. buses, w/circuit breaker
to the EFI. Any elegant ideas to do this?
4. The E bus has an alternate feed path off the Main batt bus. Is it overkill to
have a feed path from the Engine batt bus?
5. What is the "Auto" function of the Eng/Bat/Auto switch?
6. The fuse for the voltmeter is 1A at the Main Batt bus and 3A at the Eng Batt
bus. Is this a typo or is there a reason for the difference?
Thanks,
John
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: 5V regulated supply |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Tim Olson wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
>
> Well, the ground loop in my case, I think it more like this:
>
> (I called PS Engineering to verify)
> The power is at airframe ground potential. The Audio panel also
> grounds the barrels and shields to the same potential. But now,
> if you use a DC-DC converter that's isolated, sure it puts out
> 5V between the 2 wires, but that voltage can often be many volts
> above source input from a ground potential viewpoint. So
> You might have ground = +8V and Power = +13V. Yes, it's 5V, but
> the grounds are not equal.
If the power supply is isolated then that means that neither output wire
is referenced to the input ground. In fact, there is no DC electrical
path from input to output at all. In that case it is completely safe to
tie the -5V lead to ground giving you ground an +5V relative to ground.
That will work just fine.
I have experienced audio problems with portable audio devices plugged
into audio panels when powered by the aircraft's electrical system and
power input was NOT isolated. Problems went away when the device was
operated off its own battery.
Brian Lloyd
brian-yak@lloyd.com
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: 5V regulated supply |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
Great tip Brian, I found them on Mouser, found a 10A version
that will do what I need, for only $8.50. Bought
2 just because they were cheap. Should easily be able to
do the job. I'll post back if it doesn't work. I bought
the NEF0100500S0.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
Brian Lloyd wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
>
>> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim@MyRV10.com>
>>
>> ...
>> One of the players had an AC supply that says 5V@1A, and the
>> other says 5V@2A, so I would have thought the 7805 had a
>> fighting chance, but I guess that's with a heatsink or something.
>
> Just for grins I did a search on Google. Seems that Mouser has several
> that might work for you. Mouser is having a blow-out on discontinued C&D
> switching DC-DC converters. Prices for a complete power supply capable
> of delivering 25A at 5V are in the $10 range. There are also other
> manufacturers.
>
> Give the time and effort needed to build something vs. just buy a
> high-quality DC-DC converter, I think the answer is pretty clearly "buy".
>
> Give Mouser a call and tell them you need a 12V-in 5V-out supply that
> can be isolated or non-isolated. You should be able to find something at
> under $30.
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Landing Light Circuit? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
I read a post a while back about using an inductor in Bobs Landing Light
circuit.
Do you have a link to that circuit?
Thx.
Ron Parigoris
Message 18
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| Subject: | Capacitor with solder on connectors? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
My partner purchased a 22,000 mF computer grade capacitor with a 35 volt
rating and 105C temperature rating for our Rotax 914.
It has small solder on connectors, it looks like it is intended to be
soldered to a circuit board. In addition the connectors look like they are
tin plated brass, and use an aluminium rivet to fasten the connector to
the inside of the capacitor.
If I strain relieve wires is this an acceptable capacitor to use?
My partner figured getting the higher temperature rating of 105C compared
to 85C, and a 35 volt rating over 25V was better.
Thx.
Ron Parigoris
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