Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:11 AM - Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery (Eric M. Jones)
2. 08:39 AM - Re: Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery (Brian Lloyd)
3. 10:23 AM - Re: Why use starter contactor? ()
4. 10:53 AM - Re: Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery (Marty)
5. 11:50 AM - Re: Re: Why use starter contactor? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 11:55 AM - Re: Small diameter HID Taxi light recomendations (John McMahon)
7. 12:23 PM - Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery (Eric M. Jones)
8. 01:00 PM - Re: Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery (Brian Lloyd)
9. 03:47 PM - Re: Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery (Dave Morris \)
10. 04:41 PM - Re: Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery (Brian Lloyd)
11. 05:13 PM - Re: Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery (David Glauser)
12. 05:15 PM - Re: Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery (Bill Maxwell)
13. 06:03 PM - Re: Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery (Brian Lloyd)
14. 07:48 PM - Re: Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery (John McMahon)
15. 08:04 PM - Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery (BobsV35B@aol.com)
16. 09:38 PM - Re: Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery (John McMahon)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
Bill,
I absolutely know you have an eye on battery technology. I have also watched this
but have decided that it would be a real money-loser to get into the battery
market, for the simple reason that some very few months after perfecting (and
even selling a few) miracle batteries; the guys who are tooling up to make them
by the millions will eat your lunch.
There is simply no way to make a dollar on the deal. And if you sell a few, your
customers will regret it in about a year, when cheap fuel cells, new battery
technologies and ingenious new devices conspire.
That's my prediction for what it's worth. Otherwise, good luck.
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones@charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=27548#27548
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Eric M. Jones wrote:
> There is simply no way to make a dollar on the deal.
Ah, the ubiquitous nay-sayer. Now my experience is that, if you identify
a need, fill it well, and then do a good job of getting it in front of
the right customer, you will succeed.
> And if you sell a few, your customers will regret it in about a year, when cheap
fuel cells, new battery technologies and ingenious new devices conspire.
I guess that is why we are still starting our airplanes with a battery
that was designed in the late 1800's. Lead-acid batteries seem to be
pretty well ensconced in the world. I don't imagine them being
completely displaced in 5-10 years.
And I do think that Bill has quite a good feel for what technologies are
available and what is in the pipeline. I bet he can see what might
displace his proposed battery.
The fact that you don't know that fuel-cells do not have the power
density (as opposed to energy density where they are superior) needed to
start an airplane indicates that your grasp of battery technology might
not be as broad as Bill's.
> That's my prediction for what it's worth. Otherwise, good luck.
Thank you. It was worth at least 300% of what I paid for it. Hard to
find bargains like that these days.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Why use starter contactor? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com>
Bob wrote:
>Of course, continuous duty contactors are used only for
>battery contactors and are ALREADY closed in flight so g-loading
>is not a matter for consideration
Bob, I know of "master relays" can open in flight if mounted so positive
G's act to open the device. It has happened to a few RV's. It is not as
critical as the starter, but a master opeining mid aerobatic flight could
cause a little havoc.
Mickey wrote:
>My battery
>contactors are laying on their side, so the only G force that
>will cause them to open will be acceleration, and my engine
>won't have that much power.
Also, Call Van about sideway mount relays, they fail early due to galling.
Van's had a service bulletin / notice about 10 years ago on this.
B&C's starter contactor is designed to mounted Horz.
For a typical vertical relay, mount the starter relay so Pos G's
keep it open and the master relay is held closed by pos G's.
Most sport planes, even RV's pull much less negative G's than Pos.
As for hard core acro planes I wounder what they do also?
Cheers G
---------------------------------
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Marty" <martorious@earthlink.net>
Actually, I think what Eric was trying to say is that unless Bill has the
wherewithal to go into a mass production situation when demand picks up,
that some wall street type is going to pull the market out from under him
after Bill does all the legwork and proves that a market exists. It's all
about leverage and capital. Not to say that a garage based business can't
make it, Apple computer was started in a garage, but then the Apple founder
had full control on the technology, and the impression I'm getting is that
Bill does not own a patent on this particular technology, so he is
vulnerable to larger corporations moving in on the market.
Just my $.02
Marty Puckett
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian
Lloyd
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 11:35 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Eric M. Jones wrote:
> There is simply no way to make a dollar on the deal.
Ah, the ubiquitous nay-sayer. Now my experience is that, if you identify
a need, fill it well, and then do a good job of getting it in front of
the right customer, you will succeed.
> And if you sell a few, your customers will regret it in about a year, when
cheap fuel cells, new battery technologies and ingenious new devices
conspire.
I guess that is why we are still starting our airplanes with a battery
that was designed in the late 1800's. Lead-acid batteries seem to be
pretty well ensconced in the world. I don't imagine them being
completely displaced in 5-10 years.
And I do think that Bill has quite a good feel for what technologies are
available and what is in the pipeline. I bet he can see what might
displace his proposed battery.
The fact that you don't know that fuel-cells do not have the power
density (as opposed to energy density where they are superior) needed to
start an airplane indicates that your grasp of battery technology might
not be as broad as Bill's.
> That's my prediction for what it's worth. Otherwise, good luck.
Thank you. It was worth at least 300% of what I paid for it. Hard to
find bargains like that these days.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: Why use starter contactor? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 10:18 AM 4/11/2006 -0700, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com>
>
>Bob wrote:
>
> >Of course, continuous duty contactors are used only for
> >battery contactors and are ALREADY closed in flight so g-loading
> >is not a matter for consideration
>
> Bob, I know of "master relays" can open in flight if mounted so positive
>G's act to open the device. It has happened to a few RV's. It is not as
>critical as the starter, but a master opeining mid aerobatic flight could
>cause a little havoc.
Where's your data George? You are no doubt aware of the exponential
increase in holding force as a magnetically driven armature seats
in the closed position. Let's noodle this through a bit.
If a 12v contactor will close at 7 volts, then current that
flows at 7 volts represents the same FORCE as would be applied
to close a contactor due to g-loading. The same contactor drops
out at 1.5 volts; about 1/5th the current required to
close it. Now if we bias the coil at 14 volts, then force keeping
it closed is now about 10X more than it takes to close it. If my
measured 4-5 g's was the closure acceleration, then opening
accelerations must be on the order of 50g's or more. So much
for back-of-the-napkin reasoning . ..
I just went to the bench and energized an S701-1 contactor
(el cheeso S-W-R continuous duty) and pulled it out of
fully engaged positing with a spring tester. It unseats at 6.5 to
7 KgF. The plunger and contact ring weigh in at 60 gm so
that gives us more than 100:1 ratio between mass of
the assembly and force to dislodge it. This substantiates
the back-of-the napkin estimate above.
I'll suggest that nobody is going to open ANY energized
battery contactor with ANY manner of aerobatic maneuver.
>
>
> Mickey wrote:
>
> >My battery
> >contactors are laying on their side, so the only G force that
> >will cause them to open will be acceleration, and my engine
> >won't have that much power.
>
>
> Also, Call Van about sideway mount relays, they fail early due to galling.
> Van's had a service bulletin / notice about 10 years ago on this.
>
> B&C's starter contactor is designed to mounted Horz.
>
> For a typical vertical relay, mount the starter relay so Pos G's
> keep it open and the master relay is held closed by pos G's.
>
> Most sport planes, even RV's pull much less negative G's than Pos.
> As for hard core acro planes I wounder what they do also?
????? These contactors . . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/contactor/strtrctr.jpg
. . . have acceleration-sensitive axis normal and parallel
to the mounting base. This contactor . . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/s701-1.jpg
. . . has an acceleration-sensitive axis parallel to the mounting
base.
Which style is "designed to be mounted horz". I don't recall
seeing terms like "vertical" or "horizontal" used to
describe intended orientation for any of these products.
We've seen all these form factors mounted in a variety of
orientations. Help us understand the concerns.
Bob . . .
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Small diameter HID Taxi light recomendations |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John McMahon" <blackoaks@gmail.com>
Paul, Have you looked at these?
http://www.leadingedgeaircraft.com/airliteintro.htm
> know if anyone else has sourced a smaller diameter HID light. Any
> recommendations would be appreciated.
>
>
John McMahon
Lancair Super ES
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
Dear Brian,
Cheer up.
Nay, nay, nay; I am NOT a Nay-Sayer. but see:
http://www.ultralifebatteries.com/documents/techspecs/UBI-5108_UBI-2590_spec.pdf ........3.4 pounds but $425. Way cool. It will be in Walmart in six months for your electric scooter.
I really think independently trying to get into the battery business is a way to
make a small fortune (you know the rest of the quote).
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones@charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=27643#27643
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Eric M. Jones wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
>
> Dear Brian,
>
> Cheer up.
I am very cheerful. I am even smiling as I write this. :-)
> Nay, nay, nay; I am NOT a Nay-Sayer. but see:
>
> http://www.ultralifebatteries.com/documents/techspecs/UBI-5108_UBI-2590_spec.pdf ........3.4 pounds but $425. Way cool. It will be in Walmart in six months for your electric scooter.
It is for the military. That means when it hits Wall-Mart it will cost $40.
> I really think independently trying to get into the battery business is a way
to make a small fortune (you know the rest of the quote).
Possibly. But that is his watch. I have seen several people make
fortunes offering goods and service that I could not imagine a market
for. That is how innovation happens.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" <BigD@DaveMorris.com>
I think Eric and I must have gone to the same University (the UoHK),
judging from his product lineup and his comments. We sling ideas
like spaghetti against the wall while others sit around and
snicker. Sometimes the stuff sticks and we make money. Most of the
time it either falls off, or someone else comes along and makes the
fortune. We're eternal optimists who can become pessimists at the
drop of a hat.
I think he just wanted to warn that the old saying "If you build it,
they will come", is someone's idea of a cruel joke. It's all a crap
shoot, and a good marketing machine can sell utter crap, while a bad
marketing machine can't even sell the best invention. There are
millions of great, sensational, earthshaking ideas out there. Ask
Gary Kildall.
I did some work for the inventor of an all-electric car back in
1979. It looked hotter than a Ferrari and could outrun many ordinary
cars on the test track. It had a Kevlar body (this in 1979!) and a
lot of very innovative features. Betcha never even heard of it.
Dave Morris
Yes, I invented the Bug Zapper.
No, I didn't patent it.
At 02:55 PM 4/11/2006, you wrote:
> > I really think independently trying to get into the battery
> business is a way to make a small fortune (you know the rest of the quote).
>
>Possibly. But that is his watch. I have seen several people make
>fortunes offering goods and service that I could not imagine a market
>for. That is how innovation happens.
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Dave Morris "BigD" wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" <BigD@DaveMorris.com>
>
> I think Eric and I must have gone to the same University (the UoHK),
> judging from his product lineup and his comments. We sling ideas
> like spaghetti against the wall while others sit around and
> snicker. Sometimes the stuff sticks and we make money. Most of the
> time it either falls off, or someone else comes along and makes the
> fortune. We're eternal optimists who can become pessimists at the
> drop of a hat.
>
> I think he just wanted to warn that the old saying "If you build it,
> they will come", is someone's idea of a cruel joke. It's all a crap
> shoot, and a good marketing machine can sell utter crap, while a bad
> marketing machine can't even sell the best invention. There are
> millions of great, sensational, earthshaking ideas out there. Ask
> Gary Kildall.
>
> I did some work for the inventor of an all-electric car back in
> 1979. It looked hotter than a Ferrari and could outrun many ordinary
> cars on the test track. It had a Kevlar body (this in 1979!) and a
> lot of very innovative features. Betcha never even heard of it.
>
> Dave Morris
> Yes, I invented the Bug Zapper.
> No, I didn't patent it.
Wow! And all I ever did was make it possible for PCs to connect to the
Internet. Darn.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Glauser" <david.glauser@xpsystems.com>
Regarding your signature - you must not have had to deal with SoCal
Approach...
dg
Wow! And all I ever did was make it possible for PCs to connect to the
Internet. Darn.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 12
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Subject: | Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Maxwell" <wrmaxwell@bigpond.com>
was that the U of Hard Knocks or Hong Kong Dave?
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Morris "BigD"" <BigD@DaveMorris.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 8:39 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Morris \"BigD\""
> <BigD@DaveMorris.com>
>
> I think Eric and I must have gone to the same University (the UoHK),
> judging from his product lineup and his comments. We sling ideas
> like spaghetti against the wall while others sit around and
> snicker. Sometimes the stuff sticks and we make money. Most of the
> time it either falls off, or someone else comes along and makes the
> fortune. We're eternal optimists who can become pessimists at the
> drop of a hat.
>
> I think he just wanted to warn that the old saying "If you build it,
> they will come", is someone's idea of a cruel joke. It's all a crap
> shoot, and a good marketing machine can sell utter crap, while a bad
> marketing machine can't even sell the best invention. There are
> millions of great, sensational, earthshaking ideas out there. Ask
> Gary Kildall.
>
> I did some work for the inventor of an all-electric car back in
> 1979. It looked hotter than a Ferrari and could outrun many ordinary
> cars on the test track. It had a Kevlar body (this in 1979!) and a
> lot of very innovative features. Betcha never even heard of it.
>
> Dave Morris
> Yes, I invented the Bug Zapper.
> No, I didn't patent it.
>
>
> At 02:55 PM 4/11/2006, you wrote:
>> > I really think independently trying to get into the battery
>> business is a way to make a small fortune (you know the rest of the
>> quote).
>>
>>Possibly. But that is his watch. I have seen several people make
>>fortunes offering goods and service that I could not imagine a market
>>for. That is how innovation happens.
>
>
>
Message 13
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Subject: | Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
David Glauser wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Glauser" <david.glauser@xpsystems.com>
>
> Regarding your signature - you must not have had to deal with SoCal
> Approach...
I was born, raised, and learned to fly in SoCal. Tower enroute was the
way to go as you didn't have to deal with center. I also harken back to
the days that preceded transponders and the TCA (class B airspace to you
young whipper-snappers).
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 14
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Subject: | Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John McMahon" <blackoaks@gmail.com>
OK! How about Adcock Ranges?
On 4/11/06, Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com> wrote:
>
> I also harken back to
> the days that preceded transponders and the TCA (class B airspace to you
> young whipper-snappers).
>
>
--
John McMahon
Lancair Super ES
Message 15
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Subject: | Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com
In a message dated 4/11/2006 9:51:37 P.M. Central Standard Time,
blackoaks@gmail.com writes:
OK! How about Adcock Ranges?
Good Evening All,
The Adcock ranges were a major improvement over the Loop ranges. The loop
ranges worked great until the wind came up. Especially if the wind was
accompanying a bit of freezing rain.
When Doctor Adcock developed the LF range minus the wire loops, it made true
Radio Navigation practical. The VHF based Visual Aural Range was a major
step forward, but the VHF Omnidirectional Range was developed so soon after the
VAR range stations that not too many folks got to fly them.
I remember it well and fondly!
Do Not Archive.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
Message 16
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Subject: | Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John McMahon" <blackoaks@gmail.com>
Well Old Bob, that was a test. Everybody knew about the loop ranges but I
thought 'most everybody except us old timers would have forgotten the
Adcocks. How about Airway Beacons????? I started flying in the late Fiftys
but was a ARTC controller before that! Ah, those were the days.....
Do Not Archive.
> I remember it well and fondly!
>
> Do Not Archive.
>
> Happy Skies,
>
> Old Bob
>
>
John McMahon
Lancair Super ES
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