---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 04/11/06: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:11 AM - Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery (Eric M. Jones) 2. 08:39 AM - Re: Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery (Brian Lloyd) 3. 10:23 AM - Re: Why use starter contactor? () 4. 10:53 AM - Re: Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery (Marty) 5. 11:50 AM - Re: Re: Why use starter contactor? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 11:55 AM - Re: Small diameter HID Taxi light recomendations (John McMahon) 7. 12:23 PM - Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery (Eric M. Jones) 8. 01:00 PM - Re: Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery (Brian Lloyd) 9. 03:47 PM - Re: Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery (Dave Morris \) 10. 04:41 PM - Re: Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery (Brian Lloyd) 11. 05:13 PM - Re: Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery (David Glauser) 12. 05:15 PM - Re: Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery (Bill Maxwell) 13. 06:03 PM - Re: Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery (Brian Lloyd) 14. 07:48 PM - Re: Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery (John McMahon) 15. 08:04 PM - Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery (BobsV35B@aol.com) 16. 09:38 PM - Re: Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery (John McMahon) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:11:25 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery From: "Eric M. Jones" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" Bill, I absolutely know you have an eye on battery technology. I have also watched this but have decided that it would be a real money-loser to get into the battery market, for the simple reason that some very few months after perfecting (and even selling a few) miracle batteries; the guys who are tooling up to make them by the millions will eat your lunch. There is simply no way to make a dollar on the deal. And if you sell a few, your customers will regret it in about a year, when cheap fuel cells, new battery technologies and ingenious new devices conspire. That's my prediction for what it's worth. Otherwise, good luck. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones@charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=27548#27548 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:39:33 AM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd Eric M. Jones wrote: > There is simply no way to make a dollar on the deal. Ah, the ubiquitous nay-sayer. Now my experience is that, if you identify a need, fill it well, and then do a good job of getting it in front of the right customer, you will succeed. > And if you sell a few, your customers will regret it in about a year, when cheap fuel cells, new battery technologies and ingenious new devices conspire. I guess that is why we are still starting our airplanes with a battery that was designed in the late 1800's. Lead-acid batteries seem to be pretty well ensconced in the world. I don't imagine them being completely displaced in 5-10 years. And I do think that Bill has quite a good feel for what technologies are available and what is in the pipeline. I bet he can see what might displace his proposed battery. The fact that you don't know that fuel-cells do not have the power density (as opposed to energy density where they are superior) needed to start an airplane indicates that your grasp of battery technology might not be as broad as Bill's. > That's my prediction for what it's worth. Otherwise, good luck. Thank you. It was worth at least 300% of what I paid for it. Hard to find bargains like that these days. -- Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630 +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . - Antoine de Saint-Exupery ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:23:40 AM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Why use starter contactor? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Bob wrote: >Of course, continuous duty contactors are used only for >battery contactors and are ALREADY closed in flight so g-loading >is not a matter for consideration Bob, I know of "master relays" can open in flight if mounted so positive G's act to open the device. It has happened to a few RV's. It is not as critical as the starter, but a master opeining mid aerobatic flight could cause a little havoc. Mickey wrote: >My battery >contactors are laying on their side, so the only G force that >will cause them to open will be acceleration, and my engine >won't have that much power. Also, Call Van about sideway mount relays, they fail early due to galling. Van's had a service bulletin / notice about 10 years ago on this. B&C's starter contactor is designed to mounted Horz. For a typical vertical relay, mount the starter relay so Pos G's keep it open and the master relay is held closed by pos G's. Most sport planes, even RV's pull much less negative G's than Pos. As for hard core acro planes I wounder what they do also? Cheers G --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:53:59 AM PST US From: "Marty" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Marty" Actually, I think what Eric was trying to say is that unless Bill has the wherewithal to go into a mass production situation when demand picks up, that some wall street type is going to pull the market out from under him after Bill does all the legwork and proves that a market exists. It's all about leverage and capital. Not to say that a garage based business can't make it, Apple computer was started in a garage, but then the Apple founder had full control on the technology, and the impression I'm getting is that Bill does not own a patent on this particular technology, so he is vulnerable to larger corporations moving in on the market. Just my $.02 Marty Puckett -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 11:35 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd Eric M. Jones wrote: > There is simply no way to make a dollar on the deal. Ah, the ubiquitous nay-sayer. Now my experience is that, if you identify a need, fill it well, and then do a good job of getting it in front of the right customer, you will succeed. > And if you sell a few, your customers will regret it in about a year, when cheap fuel cells, new battery technologies and ingenious new devices conspire. I guess that is why we are still starting our airplanes with a battery that was designed in the late 1800's. Lead-acid batteries seem to be pretty well ensconced in the world. I don't imagine them being completely displaced in 5-10 years. And I do think that Bill has quite a good feel for what technologies are available and what is in the pipeline. I bet he can see what might displace his proposed battery. The fact that you don't know that fuel-cells do not have the power density (as opposed to energy density where they are superior) needed to start an airplane indicates that your grasp of battery technology might not be as broad as Bill's. > That's my prediction for what it's worth. Otherwise, good luck. Thank you. It was worth at least 300% of what I paid for it. Hard to find bargains like that these days. -- Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630 +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . - Antoine de Saint-Exupery ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:50:49 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Why use starter contactor? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 10:18 AM 4/11/2006 -0700, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: > >Bob wrote: > > >Of course, continuous duty contactors are used only for > >battery contactors and are ALREADY closed in flight so g-loading > >is not a matter for consideration > > Bob, I know of "master relays" can open in flight if mounted so positive >G's act to open the device. It has happened to a few RV's. It is not as >critical as the starter, but a master opeining mid aerobatic flight could >cause a little havoc. Where's your data George? You are no doubt aware of the exponential increase in holding force as a magnetically driven armature seats in the closed position. Let's noodle this through a bit. If a 12v contactor will close at 7 volts, then current that flows at 7 volts represents the same FORCE as would be applied to close a contactor due to g-loading. The same contactor drops out at 1.5 volts; about 1/5th the current required to close it. Now if we bias the coil at 14 volts, then force keeping it closed is now about 10X more than it takes to close it. If my measured 4-5 g's was the closure acceleration, then opening accelerations must be on the order of 50g's or more. So much for back-of-the-napkin reasoning . .. I just went to the bench and energized an S701-1 contactor (el cheeso S-W-R continuous duty) and pulled it out of fully engaged positing with a spring tester. It unseats at 6.5 to 7 KgF. The plunger and contact ring weigh in at 60 gm so that gives us more than 100:1 ratio between mass of the assembly and force to dislodge it. This substantiates the back-of-the napkin estimate above. I'll suggest that nobody is going to open ANY energized battery contactor with ANY manner of aerobatic maneuver. > > > Mickey wrote: > > >My battery > >contactors are laying on their side, so the only G force that > >will cause them to open will be acceleration, and my engine > >won't have that much power. > > > Also, Call Van about sideway mount relays, they fail early due to galling. > Van's had a service bulletin / notice about 10 years ago on this. > > B&C's starter contactor is designed to mounted Horz. > > For a typical vertical relay, mount the starter relay so Pos G's > keep it open and the master relay is held closed by pos G's. > > Most sport planes, even RV's pull much less negative G's than Pos. > As for hard core acro planes I wounder what they do also? ????? These contactors . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/contactor/strtrctr.jpg . . . have acceleration-sensitive axis normal and parallel to the mounting base. This contactor . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/s701-1.jpg . . . has an acceleration-sensitive axis parallel to the mounting base. Which style is "designed to be mounted horz". I don't recall seeing terms like "vertical" or "horizontal" used to describe intended orientation for any of these products. We've seen all these form factors mounted in a variety of orientations. Help us understand the concerns. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:55:13 AM PST US From: "John McMahon" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Small diameter HID Taxi light recomendations --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John McMahon" Paul, Have you looked at these? http://www.leadingedgeaircraft.com/airliteintro.htm > know if anyone else has sourced a smaller diameter HID light. Any > recommendations would be appreciated. > > John McMahon Lancair Super ES ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:23:47 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery From: "Eric M. Jones" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" Dear Brian, Cheer up. Nay, nay, nay; I am NOT a Nay-Sayer. but see: http://www.ultralifebatteries.com/documents/techspecs/UBI-5108_UBI-2590_spec.pdf ........3.4 pounds but $425. Way cool. It will be in Walmart in six months for your electric scooter. I really think independently trying to get into the battery business is a way to make a small fortune (you know the rest of the quote). -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones@charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=27643#27643 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:00:02 PM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd Eric M. Jones wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" > > Dear Brian, > > Cheer up. I am very cheerful. I am even smiling as I write this. :-) > Nay, nay, nay; I am NOT a Nay-Sayer. but see: > > http://www.ultralifebatteries.com/documents/techspecs/UBI-5108_UBI-2590_spec.pdf ........3.4 pounds but $425. Way cool. It will be in Walmart in six months for your electric scooter. It is for the military. That means when it hits Wall-Mart it will cost $40. > I really think independently trying to get into the battery business is a way to make a small fortune (you know the rest of the quote). Possibly. But that is his watch. I have seen several people make fortunes offering goods and service that I could not imagine a market for. That is how innovation happens. -- Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630 +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . - Antoine de Saint-Exupery ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:47:11 PM PST US From: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" I think Eric and I must have gone to the same University (the UoHK), judging from his product lineup and his comments. We sling ideas like spaghetti against the wall while others sit around and snicker. Sometimes the stuff sticks and we make money. Most of the time it either falls off, or someone else comes along and makes the fortune. We're eternal optimists who can become pessimists at the drop of a hat. I think he just wanted to warn that the old saying "If you build it, they will come", is someone's idea of a cruel joke. It's all a crap shoot, and a good marketing machine can sell utter crap, while a bad marketing machine can't even sell the best invention. There are millions of great, sensational, earthshaking ideas out there. Ask Gary Kildall. I did some work for the inventor of an all-electric car back in 1979. It looked hotter than a Ferrari and could outrun many ordinary cars on the test track. It had a Kevlar body (this in 1979!) and a lot of very innovative features. Betcha never even heard of it. Dave Morris Yes, I invented the Bug Zapper. No, I didn't patent it. At 02:55 PM 4/11/2006, you wrote: > > I really think independently trying to get into the battery > business is a way to make a small fortune (you know the rest of the quote). > >Possibly. But that is his watch. I have seen several people make >fortunes offering goods and service that I could not imagine a market >for. That is how innovation happens. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:41:03 PM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd Dave Morris "BigD" wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" > > I think Eric and I must have gone to the same University (the UoHK), > judging from his product lineup and his comments. We sling ideas > like spaghetti against the wall while others sit around and > snicker. Sometimes the stuff sticks and we make money. Most of the > time it either falls off, or someone else comes along and makes the > fortune. We're eternal optimists who can become pessimists at the > drop of a hat. > > I think he just wanted to warn that the old saying "If you build it, > they will come", is someone's idea of a cruel joke. It's all a crap > shoot, and a good marketing machine can sell utter crap, while a bad > marketing machine can't even sell the best invention. There are > millions of great, sensational, earthshaking ideas out there. Ask > Gary Kildall. > > I did some work for the inventor of an all-electric car back in > 1979. It looked hotter than a Ferrari and could outrun many ordinary > cars on the test track. It had a Kevlar body (this in 1979!) and a > lot of very innovative features. Betcha never even heard of it. > > Dave Morris > Yes, I invented the Bug Zapper. > No, I didn't patent it. Wow! And all I ever did was make it possible for PCs to connect to the Internet. Darn. -- Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630 +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . - Antoine de Saint-Exupery ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:13:19 PM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery From: "David Glauser" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Glauser" Regarding your signature - you must not have had to deal with SoCal Approach... dg Wow! And all I ever did was make it possible for PCs to connect to the Internet. Darn. -- Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630 +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . - Antoine de Saint-Exupery ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:15:04 PM PST US From: "Bill Maxwell" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Maxwell" was that the U of Hard Knocks or Hong Kong Dave? Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Morris "BigD"" Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 8:39 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" > > > I think Eric and I must have gone to the same University (the UoHK), > judging from his product lineup and his comments. We sling ideas > like spaghetti against the wall while others sit around and > snicker. Sometimes the stuff sticks and we make money. Most of the > time it either falls off, or someone else comes along and makes the > fortune. We're eternal optimists who can become pessimists at the > drop of a hat. > > I think he just wanted to warn that the old saying "If you build it, > they will come", is someone's idea of a cruel joke. It's all a crap > shoot, and a good marketing machine can sell utter crap, while a bad > marketing machine can't even sell the best invention. There are > millions of great, sensational, earthshaking ideas out there. Ask > Gary Kildall. > > I did some work for the inventor of an all-electric car back in > 1979. It looked hotter than a Ferrari and could outrun many ordinary > cars on the test track. It had a Kevlar body (this in 1979!) and a > lot of very innovative features. Betcha never even heard of it. > > Dave Morris > Yes, I invented the Bug Zapper. > No, I didn't patent it. > > > At 02:55 PM 4/11/2006, you wrote: >> > I really think independently trying to get into the battery >> business is a way to make a small fortune (you know the rest of the >> quote). >> >>Possibly. But that is his watch. I have seen several people make >>fortunes offering goods and service that I could not imagine a market >>for. That is how innovation happens. > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:03:52 PM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd David Glauser wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Glauser" > > Regarding your signature - you must not have had to deal with SoCal > Approach... I was born, raised, and learned to fly in SoCal. Tower enroute was the way to go as you didn't have to deal with center. I also harken back to the days that preceded transponders and the TCA (class B airspace to you young whipper-snappers). -- Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630 +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . - Antoine de Saint-Exupery ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:48:55 PM PST US From: "John McMahon" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John McMahon" OK! How about Adcock Ranges? On 4/11/06, Brian Lloyd wrote: > > I also harken back to > the days that preceded transponders and the TCA (class B airspace to you > young whipper-snappers). > > -- John McMahon Lancair Super ES ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:04:57 PM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com In a message dated 4/11/2006 9:51:37 P.M. Central Standard Time, blackoaks@gmail.com writes: OK! How about Adcock Ranges? Good Evening All, The Adcock ranges were a major improvement over the Loop ranges. The loop ranges worked great until the wind came up. Especially if the wind was accompanying a bit of freezing rain. When Doctor Adcock developed the LF range minus the wire loops, it made true Radio Navigation practical. The VHF based Visual Aural Range was a major step forward, but the VHF Omnidirectional Range was developed so soon after the VAR range stations that not too many folks got to fly them. I remember it well and fondly! Do Not Archive. Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8503 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:38:30 PM PST US From: "John McMahon" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John McMahon" Well Old Bob, that was a test. Everybody knew about the loop ranges but I thought 'most everybody except us old timers would have forgotten the Adcocks. How about Airway Beacons????? I started flying in the late Fiftys but was a ARTC controller before that! Ah, those were the days..... Do Not Archive. > I remember it well and fondly! > > Do Not Archive. > > Happy Skies, > > Old Bob > > John McMahon Lancair Super ES