---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 04/12/06: 31 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:21 AM - Re: Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery (Brian Lloyd) 2. 12:48 AM - Old Days (Was Battery) (Jerry2DT@aol.com) 3. 01:05 AM - Old Stuff, Was: Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery (BobsV35B@aol.com) 4. 01:35 AM - More Old Struff, Was: D Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery (BobsV35B@aol.com) 5. 05:59 AM - Re: Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery (Jim Pleasants) 6. 06:18 AM - Re: Old Stuff, Was: Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery (Jerry Grimmonpre) 7. 06:20 AM - Re: More Old Struff, Was: D Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery (Robert Sultzbach) 8. 07:02 AM - Old Stuff, Was: Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery (BobsV35B@aol.com) 9. 07:02 AM - Re: Old Stuff, Was: Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery (BobsV35B@aol.com) 10. 08:28 AM - Re: More Old Struff, Was: D Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery (Marty) 11. 08:51 AM - Re: Old Stuff, (Jim Pleasants) 12. 08:59 AM - CIRCUIT BREAKERS (RV4WGH@aol.com) 13. 09:53 AM - Re: CIRCUIT BREAKERS (Bruce Gray) 14. 10:03 AM - Current Limiter On The Aft Side of Firewall (Jerry Grimmonpre) 15. 10:03 AM - Re: More Old Struff, Was: D Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery (Brian Lloyd) 16. 10:47 AM - Re: Current Limiter On The Aft Side of Firewall (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 17. 10:57 AM - Re: More Old Struff (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 18. 11:00 AM - Re: CIRCUIT BREAKERS (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 19. 11:38 AM - Re: CIRCUIT BREAKERS (Jerry Grimmonpre) 20. 11:40 AM - Re: Re: More Old Struff (Brian Lloyd) 21. 11:54 AM - Re: Re: More Old Struff (Matt Prather) 22. 12:35 PM - Re: Current Limiter On The Aft Side of Firewall (Jerry Grimmonpre) 23. 12:44 PM - Re: More Old Struff, Was: D Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery (James H Nelson) 24. 01:13 PM - Where to fly from! (James H Nelson) 25. 02:14 PM - Re: Current Limiter On The Aft Side of Firewall (Robert Sultzbach) 26. 02:39 PM - Re: Why use starter contactor? () 27. 03:25 PM - Re: Re: More Old Struff (Kevin Horton) 28. 06:47 PM - Re: Re: More Old Struff (Brian Lloyd) 29. 06:51 PM - Re: More Old Struff, Was: D Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery (Brian Lloyd) 30. 06:55 PM - Re: Re: More Old Struff (Brian Lloyd) 31. 08:08 PM - Re: Off, R, L, Both, Start switch (guy fulton) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:21:50 AM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd John McMahon wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John McMahon" > > OK! How about Adcock Ranges? When I would fly up to Canada with my father in the late '60s I enjoyed the challenge of flying the adcock range at Cranbrook on our way to Calgary. When I got to Calgary I would request (and get) a GCA approach. The only thing I haven't done flying IFR is flown depending on a manual DF loop. Oh, and while I have played with an old LORAN-A receiver, I have never used one to navigate. > > On 4/11/06, Brian Lloyd wrote: >> I also harken back to >> the days that preceded transponders and the TCA (class B airspace to you >> young whipper-snappers). >> >> > -- > John McMahon > Lancair Super ES > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630 +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . - Antoine de Saint-Exupery ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:48:47 AM PST US From: Jerry2DT@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Old Days (Was Battery) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jerry2DT@aol.com Yah, I remember them days well, and even before that, when Cap'n Eddie and I used to fly mail in our Pitcairns, we made a deal with the tribes to light fires at night to find our way across the plains and Rockies... You young whippersnappers can have your beacons and radio ranges... Please, do not archive... In a message dated 4/12/2006 12:04:33 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, aeroelectric-list-digest@matronics.com writes: From: "John McMahon" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John McMahon" Well Old Bob, that was a test. Everybody knew about the loop ranges but I thought 'most everybody except us old timers would have forgotten the Adcocks. How about Airway Beacons????? I started flying in the late Fiftys but was a ARTC controller before that! Ah, those were the days..... Do Not Archive. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 01:05:04 AM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Old Stuff, Was: AeroElectric-List: Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com In a message dated 4/11/2006 11:40:29 P.M. Central Standard Time, blackoaks@gmail.com writes: How about Airway Beacons????? How about.... "Good Navigators Keep Course by Precise Methods" for a memory mnemonic of the identifiers on the beacons? Do Not Archive Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8503 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 01:35:51 AM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: More Old Struff, Was: D AeroElectric-List: Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com Good Morning Brian, The manual loop was a snap, the tricky approaches were the DF approaches using a fixed loop. Almost all of the early TriPacers had a fixed loop in the fuselage and it worked great. The loop was two or three wires wound around the inside of the fuselage so it was a pretty good loop. It was fairly easy to get the null down to an accurate one degree. I was a Piper dealer in those days and often taught the use of the manual loop to TriPacer customers for use in VFR navigation using commercial broadcast stations. I even had a fairly simple and relatively fast method for solving the one-eighty ambiguity problem Before the TriPacer came out, I had a Bonanza that was equipped with the manual loop in the tail. That also worked reasonably well, but the null was generally difficult to determine closer than a couple of degrees. The ones in the Bonanza were driven by a flexible shaft and there was a lot of springiness involved. They also tended to get bound up and had to be cleaned and lubricated every couple of months. I generally ended up using it as a fixed loop which worked reasonably well as long as the cross wind was not very strong. With a strong crosswind, the effort was greater, but still doable. While it did work well, I was happy when a light weight ADF finally became available! On the other hand, the manual loops that were mounted either directly above or immediately below the cockpit and hand operated directly were very easy to use. On our DC-3s, we had an electrically driven one that worked very well, but it was as heavy as an old Bendix ADF. The same went for the Bendix Hand Cranked units that were so ubiquitous in the early part of WWII. Fact is, I still have one of those (the manual Bendix) in the pile of junk in my hangar! Do Not Archive PS I have used the Loran A for over water navigation, but I had a navigator that knew how to operate it and count the pips a lot better than I could. Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8503 In a message dated 4/12/2006 2:23:19 A.M. Central Standard Time, brian-yak@lloyd.com writes: The only thing I haven't done flying IFR is flown depending on a manual DF loop. Oh, and while I have played with an old LORAN-A receiver, I have never used one to navigate. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:59:28 AM PST US From: "Jim Pleasants" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Pleasants" While we are on the subject of ancient/obscure nav systems, how about the YE/YG beacon? do not archive Jim Pleasants ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 11:01 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com > > > In a message dated 4/11/2006 9:51:37 P.M. Central Standard Time, > blackoaks@gmail.com writes: > OK! How about Adcock Ranges? > > > Good Evening All, > > The Adcock ranges were a major improvement over the Loop ranges. The loop > ranges worked great until the wind came up. Especially if the wind was > accompanying a bit of freezing rain. > > When Doctor Adcock developed the LF range minus the wire loops, it made true > Radio Navigation practical. The VHF based Visual Aural Range was a major > step forward, but the VHF Omnidirectional Range was developed so soon after the > VAR range stations that not too many folks got to fly them. > > I remember it well and fondly! > > Do Not Archive. > > Happy Skies, > > Old Bob > AKA > Bob Siegfried > Ancient Aviator > Stearman N3977A > Brookeridge Air Park LL22 > Downers Grove, IL 60516 > 630 985-8503 > > > -- > > -- ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:18:30 AM PST US From: "Jerry Grimmonpre" Subject: Re: Old Stuff, Was: AeroElectric-List: Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jerry Grimmonpre" Hey Bob ... Wasn't mnemonic one of United's early stews? : ) Jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 3:02 AM Subject: Old Stuff, Was: AeroElectric-List: Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com > > > In a message dated 4/11/2006 11:40:29 P.M. Central Standard Time, > blackoaks@gmail.com writes: > > How about Airway Beacons????? > > > How about.... "Good Navigators Keep Course by Precise Methods" for a > memory > mnemonic of the identifiers on the beacons? > > Do Not Archive > > Happy Skies, > > Old Bob > AKA > Bob Siegfried > Ancient Aviator > Stearman N3977A > Brookeridge Air Park LL22 > Downers Grove, IL 60516 > 630 985-8503 > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:20:19 AM PST US From: Robert Sultzbach Subject: Re: More Old Struff, Was: D AeroElectric-List: Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Robert Sultzbach This thread is entertaining. I must say, my dad, an old time pilot who was flying in the thirties had a real disdain for radios and radio navigation of any kind. So you young whippersnappers top that. Isn't it funny how we perceive our world depending on when we came along. --- BobsV35B@aol.com wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: > BobsV35B@aol.com > > > > Good Morning Brian, > > The manual loop was a snap, the tricky approaches > were the DF approaches > using a fixed loop. > > Almost all of the early TriPacers had a fixed loop > in the fuselage and it > worked great. The loop was two or three wires wound > around the inside of the > fuselage so it was a pretty good loop. It was fairly > easy to get the null down > to an accurate one degree. I was a Piper dealer in > those days and often taught > the use of the manual loop to TriPacer customers > for use in VFR navigation > using commercial broadcast stations. I even had a > fairly simple and > relatively fast method for solving the one-eighty > ambiguity problem > > Before the TriPacer came out, I had a Bonanza that > was equipped with the > manual loop in the tail. That also worked reasonably > well, but the null was > generally difficult to determine closer than a > couple of degrees. The ones in the > Bonanza were driven by a flexible shaft and there > was a lot of springiness > involved. They also tended to get bound up and had > to be cleaned and > lubricated every couple of months. I generally > ended up using it as a fixed loop > which worked reasonably well as long as the cross > wind was not very strong. With > a strong crosswind, the effort was greater, but > still doable. While it did > work well, I was happy when a light weight ADF > finally became available! > > On the other hand, the manual loops that were > mounted either directly above > or immediately below the cockpit and hand operated > directly were very easy to > use. > > On our DC-3s, we had an electrically driven one that > worked very well, but > it was as heavy as an old Bendix ADF. The same went > for the Bendix Hand > Cranked units that were so ubiquitous in the early > part of WWII. > > Fact is, I still have one of those (the manual > Bendix) in the pile of junk > in my hangar! > > Do Not Archive > > PS I have used the Loran A for over water > navigation, but I had a navigator > that knew how to operate it and count the pips a lot > better than I could. > > Happy Skies, > > Old Bob > AKA > Bob Siegfried > Ancient Aviator > Stearman N3977A > Brookeridge Air Park LL22 > Downers Grove, IL 60516 > 630 985-8503 > > > In a message dated 4/12/2006 2:23:19 A.M. Central > Standard Time, > brian-yak@lloyd.com writes: > > The only thing I haven't done flying IFR is flown > depending on a manual > DF loop. Oh, and while I have played with an old > LORAN-A receiver, I > have never used one to navigate. > > > > > > > > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > > > Admin. > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:02:12 AM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Old Stuff, Was: AeroElectric-List: Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com In a message dated 4/12/2006 8:01:27 A.M. Central Standard Time, jpleasants@bellsouth.net writes: While we are on the subject of ancient/obscure nav systems, how about the YE/YG beacon? Good Morning Jim, That one has me stumped unless those are identifiers for two of the extra high power long range homing beacons that were located at the various coastal departure and arrival points. Do Not Archive Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8503 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:02:12 AM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: Old Stuff, Was: AeroElectric-List: Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com In a message dated 4/12/2006 8:19:53 A.M. Central Standard Time, jerry@mc.net writes: Hey Bob ... Wasn't mnemonic one of United's early stews? : ) Jerry Sumthin close! Do Not Archive Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8503 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:28:00 AM PST US From: "Marty" Subject: RE: More Old Struff, Was: D AeroElectric-List: Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Marty" Up until a few decades ago, fire departments and firefighters shunned trucks with a roof, believing it was unmanly. Today's trucks have large crew areas with A/C, Heat and big cushy seats. I volunteered for 6 years on my hometown's Fire Department, and I have to say that the A/C felt awful good after working a traffic accident or house fire in mid August. I felt I proved my worth on the fireground, I had nothing left to prove on the ride back! That's what a few decades (and technology) does for us, it makes us soft! But I for one won't give up my A/C! Lol Marty Puckett -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert Sultzbach Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 9:20 AM Subject: Re: More Old Struff, Was: D AeroElectric-List: Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Robert Sultzbach This thread is entertaining. I must say, my dad, an old time pilot who was flying in the thirties had a real disdain for radios and radio navigation of any kind. So you young whippersnappers top that. Isn't it funny how we perceive our world depending on when we came along. --- BobsV35B@aol.com wrote: ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:51:50 AM PST US From: "Jim Pleasants" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Old Stuff, --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Pleasants" Yup -- It was a WW II system for both shipboard and shore usage. There was a transmitter which sent different morse code letters in the various compass sectors -- I think 30 degree segments. If a pilot heard, say, an "A", he made a turn to either the middle heading for that sector or the reciprocal heading. The signal would either increase in strength, or decrease, and this would be evident by adjusting the volume. When he flew out of the sector (off to one side), he would turn to regain the sector -- and this might mean a false anaylsis, which would require a 180 turn. In shipboard use during war, the codes would be changed every hour so as to screen the ship location from the enemy. Shore stations didn't change their code scheme, and the pattern was published in the enroute supplements. The last one I can recall was at NAS Atlanta in the early 60s. Jim do not archieve ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 9:57 AM Subject: Old Stuff, Was: AeroElectric-List: Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com > > > In a message dated 4/12/2006 8:01:27 A.M. Central Standard Time, > jpleasants@bellsouth.net writes: > > While we are on the subject of ancient/obscure nav systems, how about the > YE/YG beacon? > > > Good Morning Jim, > > That one has me stumped unless those are identifiers for two of the extra > high power long range homing beacons that were located at the various coastal > departure and arrival points. > > Do Not Archive > > Happy Skies, > > Old Bob > AKA > Bob Siegfried > Ancient Aviator > Stearman N3977A > Brookeridge Air Park LL22 > Downers Grove, IL 60516 > 630 985-8503 -- ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:59:41 AM PST US From: RV4WGH@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: CIRCUIT BREAKERS --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: RV4WGH@aol.com I have a 55 Amp alternator and have been looking for a 60 or 70 Amp - push-pull (on-off) circuit breaker. I assume one of those would be the appropriate rating. Anyone know of a source? Thanks, Wally Hunt Rockford, IL RV-4 Finishing Kit ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:53:29 AM PST US From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: CIRCUIT BREAKERS --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" Use a fuse link instead. If you pop a breaker that size do you really want to reset it in flight? Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV4WGH@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 11:55 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: CIRCUIT BREAKERS --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: RV4WGH@aol.com I have a 55 Amp alternator and have been looking for a 60 or 70 Amp - push-pull (on-off) circuit breaker. I assume one of those would be the appropriate rating. Anyone know of a source? Thanks, Wally Hunt Rockford, IL RV-4 Finishing Kit ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:03:06 AM PST US From: "Jerry Grimmonpre" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Current Limiter On The Aft Side of Firewall --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jerry Grimmonpre" Bob ... Do you see any problem with mounting the current limiter on the aft side of the firewall? I'm trying to keep most electrical hardware components off the engine side of the firewall. Is there a limiting wire size for fuselinks ... where the smoke generated from burning them is just too much for the human body to cope with? At one time, I thought, the max fuse size for fuse blocks was 20A. B&C now lists 15A. For amperages over 15, what do you suggest for protection of the wire? Thanks for all you do for this list ... Jerry Grimmonpre' ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:03:35 AM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: More Old Struff, Was: D AeroElectric-List: Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd Robert Sultzbach wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Robert Sultzbach > > This thread is entertaining. I must say, my dad, an > old time pilot who was flying in the thirties had a > real disdain for radios and radio navigation of any > kind. So you young whippersnappers top that. Isn't > it funny how we perceive our world depending on when > we came along. Navigation is near and dear to my heart. Finding where I am, where I am going, and when I am going to get there is just plain fun. In fact, I like it so much that I use it to teach geometry to 6th, 7th, and 8th graders. They like it because it is something real to do and not just regurgitation. I have them surveying and making maps (complete with errors). They don't realize that they are learning what vectors are. I have them plotting trips on our giant WAC chart of the US that covers one wall of the classroom and then grabbing an E6B to tell me when they will get there and how much fuel they will need. Of course, this is sneaking in an interest in geography. Some even asked me how the E6B worked so I got to tell them about ratios and logarithms. Pretty soon I am going to introduce the concept of lines of position (LOPs) and how pilotage, VOR, GPS, and celestial navigation work. No, they are not going to become navigators but they sure as heck will know that mathematics is both useful and fun. -- Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630 +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . - Antoine de Saint-Exupery ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:47:53 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Firewall Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Current Limiter On The Aft Side of Firewall --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Firewall At 12:01 PM 4/12/2006 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jerry Grimmonpre" > >Bob ... >Do you see any problem with mounting the current limiter on the aft side of >the firewall? I'm trying to keep most electrical hardware components off >the engine side of the firewall. Why? There's nothing inherently evil about mounting things under the cowl. You simply choose parts designed to function well in that environment. Certainly things like contactors, current limiters, shunts, and batteries are candidates for mounting on forward side of firewall. Generally speaking, from a maintenance perspective, things are easier to get at on the forward side of firewall than aft side. I'd put as MUCH stuff as practical on the front side with an idea of minimizing firewall penetrations by wires . . . especially fat wires. >Is there a limiting wire size for fuselinks ... where the smoke generated >from burning them is just too much for the human body to cope with? Review Note 4 of http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev11/AppZ_R11F.pdf Fusible links are ROBUST. They're kind the mini-version of ANN/ANL current limiters. Compared with fuses, they'll carry a LOT of current for a long time. I would not recommend them for any applications other than those suggested in the Z-figures. Further, it's best that any fusible link be under the cowl and not in the cockpit. >At one time, I thought, the max fuse size for fuse blocks was 20A. B&C now >lists 15A. For amperages over 15, what do you suggest for protection of the >wire? The Bussmann rating for these fuseblocks is 30A max for any one branch. As I pointed out in the recent article on switch failures . . . http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Anatomy_of_a_Switch_Failure/Anatomy_of_a_Switch_Failure.html . . . electronic components are most likely to fail because of environmental effects (in this case, compromised metal to metal contact at the contact rocker). De-rating helps to slow down the rate at which environmental effects chip away at a device's performance. What system needs a higher fuse value than 15A? < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:57:04 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: More Old Struff --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > >Pretty soon I am going to introduce the concept of lines of position >(LOPs) and how pilotage, VOR, GPS, and celestial navigation work. No, >they are not going to become navigators but they sure as heck will know >that mathematics is both useful and fun. LOPs are pretty cool. Received an introduction to the concept at astrocompass school at Boeing many moons ago. It was easy to visualize that any give star has an infinite number of locations on the earth where it appears x-degrees above the horizon. So, shooting one star and knowing time of day to access the almanac, you could deduce an infinite number of accurate possibilities as to where you were. Shoot a second star and intersections reduce infinite to two, shoot a third and you're down to one possible location. When I studied LORAN years later and taught it at Great Lakes, LOP's plotted with timing of shore based radio signals vs. angles above horizon proved just as useful. Nowadays, GPS does exactly the same thing except timing comes off of stations whizzing above the earth. Bob . . . < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:00:51 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: CIRCUIT BREAKERS --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 11:55 AM 4/12/2006 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: RV4WGH@aol.com > >I have a 55 Amp alternator and have been looking for a 60 or 70 Amp - >push-pull (on-off) circuit breaker. I assume one of those would be >the appropriate >rating. > >Anyone know of a source? I'd recommend you go to an ANL current limiter mounted on the firewall and wired as described in the Z-figures. If you absolutely must have a breaker, the right sized (75 amp) is going to be a fat rascal. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:38:10 AM PST US From: "Jerry Grimmonpre" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: CIRCUIT BREAKERS --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jerry Grimmonpre" Bruce, I'm just trying to find a suitable B lead protection with the following questions ... no foul intended, Bruce. Have you used a fuselink for the purpose expressed below? What gage wire are you advocating to use with say, a 10 AWG B lead from the alternator? The standards point to using four gages smaller, or, 14 AWG. Is this what you are advocating to substitute for say a 70A CB or 80A current limiter? Thanks ... Jerry Grimmonpre' > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" > > Use a fuse link instead. If you pop a breaker that size do you really want > to reset it in flight? > > Bruce > www.glasair.org > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: RV4WGH@aol.com > > I have a 55 Amp alternator and have been looking for a 60 or 70 Amp - > push-pull (on-off) circuit breaker. I assume one of those would be the > appropriate > rating. > > Anyone know of a source? > > Thanks, > > Wally Hunt > Rockford, IL > RV-4 Finishing Kit ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:40:15 AM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: More Old Struff --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > LOPs are pretty cool. Received an introduction to the concept > at astrocompass school at Boeing many moons ago. It was easy > to visualize that any give star has an infinite number of > locations on the earth where it appears x-degrees above the > horizon. Right. It is a circle centered on the point on the earth where the object is at the zenith (declination is 90 degrees). The distance from that point is the sin of the elevation times 1/4 the circumference of the earth. > So, shooting one star and knowing time of day to > access the almanac, you could deduce an infinite number of > accurate possibilities as to where you were. Right, a *line* of position. > Shoot a second > star and intersections reduce infinite to two, shoot a third > and you're down to one possible location. > > When I studied LORAN years later and taught it at Great Lakes, > LOP's plotted with timing of shore based radio signals vs. > angles above horizon proved just as useful. Right, and you can cross LOPs from anything to find your position. You can cross a LORAN TD LOP with a celestial LOP to get a position. It is very cool stuff. I plan to introduce the concept to the kids by using a road as one LOP and a compass bearing off a landmark as another. It is something they can get their hands around right away. From there I will introduce more esoteric stuff like two bearings (triangulation) and then on to other stuff if they can handle it. > > Nowadays, GPS does exactly the same thing except timing > comes off of stations whizzing above the earth. A little different. Celestial is based on angles which define a circle on the surface of the earth. GPS "LOPs" are actually spheres defined by a time (distance) from the satellite. One bird defines a sphere. Two define a circle. Three define two intersecting circles or two points. Four defines a single point which is why you need to see four satellites in order to have three-D navigation. Many GPS receivers use the altitude encoder to define a pseudo-range from the center of the earth to simulate another satellite. It is just another form of LOP. I love this stuff. -- Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630 +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . - Antoine de Saint-Exupery ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:54:04 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: More Old Struff From: "Matt Prather" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" I like the astro-inertial concept, as used on various craft. Forget jammed GPS. Just have to fly above the clouds. Works in daylight too. http://www.dtic.mil/matris/sbir/sbir021/n104.pdf What is old is new.. Matt- > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > > >> >> >>Pretty soon I am going to introduce the concept of lines of position >> (LOPs) and how pilotage, VOR, GPS, and celestial navigation work. No, >> they are not going to become navigators but they sure as heck will know >> that mathematics is both useful and fun. > > LOPs are pretty cool. Received an introduction to the concept > at astrocompass school at Boeing many moons ago. It was easy > to visualize that any give star has an infinite number of > locations on the earth where it appears x-degrees above the > horizon. So, shooting one star and knowing time of day to > access the almanac, you could deduce an infinite number of > accurate possibilities as to where you were. Shoot a second > star and intersections reduce infinite to two, shoot a third > and you're down to one possible location. > > When I studied LORAN years later and taught it at Great Lakes, LOP's > plotted with timing of shore based radio signals vs. > angles above horizon proved just as useful. > > Nowadays, GPS does exactly the same thing except timing > comes off of stations whizzing above the earth. > > > Bob . . . > > > < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > > < the authority which determines whether there can be > > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > > < with experiment. > > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 12:35:35 PM PST US From: "Jerry Grimmonpre" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Current Limiter On The Aft Side of Firewall --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jerry Grimmonpre" > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > Firewall > > At 12:01 PM 4/12/2006 -0500, you wrote: > >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jerry Grimmonpre" >> >>Bob ... >>Do you see any problem with mounting the current limiter on the aft side >>of >>the firewall? I'm trying to keep most electrical hardware components off >>the engine side of the firewall. > > Why? There's nothing inherently evil about mounting > things under the cowl. You simply choose parts designed > to function well in that environment. Certainly things > like contactors, current limiters, shunts, and batteries > are candidates for mounting on forward side of firewall. The airplane is an RV8A which is nose heavy by design. The battery goes behind the aft baggage area. There is no battery planned to go on the firewall. Therefore any electrical hardware mounted to the firewall would require more penetrations than already planned. > Generally speaking, from a maintenance perspective, things > are easier to get at on the forward side of firewall than > aft side. I'd put as MUCH stuff as practical on the front side > with an idea of minimizing firewall penetrations by wires . . . > especially fat wires. The design of the RV8A includes a storage well directly behind the firewall, on the right side and below the fwd baggage area. This storage well provides convenience for working on fuses, contactors, aux battery and a wiring center. This makes the distance from contactors to fuse blocks only 4-6 inches. The baggage door covers all of this storage well. There is no need to remove engine cowling unless there is a stater or alternator problem. > > What system needs a higher fuse value than 15A? The endurance bus feed is planned to be tapped off the hot battery bus through a fuse similar to Z12. The endurance bus will be running about 22A. It seems this feed wire needs to be moved to the hot battery bus lug. Should this be done and what method of wire protection should be used with this source of power for the endurance bus? Thanks ... Jerry Grimmonpre' ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 12:44:40 PM PST US Subject: Re: More Old Struff, Was: D AeroElectric-List: Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery From: James H Nelson --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: James H Nelson Brian, What a terrible thing to do to our children, learning how to do something useful in school. tisk, tisk Especially in the California school system. Jim do not archive ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 01:13:53 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Where to fly from! From: James H Nelson --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: James H Nelson Wally, Where do you live in Rockford? Born there and grew up there but left there over 30 years ago. Where do you expect to fly? Out of Greater Rockford or a grass strip locally. I use to fly out a strip around Rockton but its now a shopping center and the road to Beloit is now a 4 lane. I'm going to be there for Mothers day. My Step Mom and Father in law are still there so we get up there at least once a year. Its easier to shovel sunshine rather than snow (brrrr). We can dodge the hurricanes but tornados are quick and dirty. Jim Nelson St. Petersburg Fl. RV9-A (canopy) ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 02:14:33 PM PST US From: Robert Sultzbach Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Current Limiter On The Aft Side of Firewall --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Robert Sultzbach Hi Jerry, I too, believed the 8A would be more forward in cg than the tailwheel 8. I came across some info, where escapes me, that stated the 8A is actually less forward in cg than the 8. Apparently, the gear towers in the 8 are quite heavy and move the cg more than the 8A's nose gear. Investigate this to verify it. I too, will check it out. Bob --- Jerry Grimmonpre wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jerry > Grimmonpre" > > > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert > L. Nuckolls, III" > > Firewall > > > > At 12:01 PM 4/12/2006 -0500, you wrote: > > > >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jerry > Grimmonpre" > >> > >>Bob ... > >>Do you see any problem with mounting the current > limiter on the aft side > >>of > >>the firewall? I'm trying to keep most electrical > hardware components off > >>the engine side of the firewall. > > > > Why? There's nothing inherently evil about > mounting > > things under the cowl. You simply choose parts > designed > > to function well in that environment. Certainly > things > > like contactors, current limiters, shunts, and > batteries > > are candidates for mounting on forward side of > firewall. > > The airplane is an RV8A which is nose heavy by > design. The battery goes > behind the aft baggage area. There is no battery > planned to go on the > firewall. Therefore any electrical hardware mounted > to the firewall would > require more penetrations than already planned. > > > > Generally speaking, from a maintenance > perspective, things > > are easier to get at on the forward side of > firewall than > > aft side. I'd put as MUCH stuff as practical on > the front side > > with an idea of minimizing firewall > penetrations by wires . . . > > especially fat wires. > > The design of the RV8A includes a storage well > directly behind the firewall, > on the right side and below the fwd baggage area. > This storage well > provides convenience for working on fuses, > contactors, aux battery and a > wiring center. This makes the distance from > contactors to fuse blocks only > 4-6 inches. The baggage door covers all of this > storage well. There is no > need to remove engine cowling unless there is a > stater or alternator > problem. > > > > > What system needs a higher fuse value than 15A? > > The endurance bus feed is planned to be tapped off > the hot battery bus > through a fuse similar to Z12. The endurance bus > will be running about > 22A. It seems this feed wire needs to be moved to > the hot battery bus lug. > Should this be done and what method of wire > protection should be used with > this source of power for the endurance bus? > > Thanks ... > Jerry Grimmonpre' > > > > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > > > Admin. > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 02:39:45 PM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Why use starter contactor? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Bob wrote: >Where's your data George? You are no doubt aware of the >exponential increase in holding force as a magnetically driven >armature seats in the closed position. Let's noodle this through >a bit. Bob, I don't know what the holding force is, and I believe you're 100% correct the force is huge and probably unlikely to come unstuck or open under normal positive G's regardless of mounting position. To answer you question about my data, I think I stated it but will repeat. A RV builder / pilot reported his panel went dark with Pos G's maneuvers about 6 or more years ago. From this report posted in Van's Aircraft News letter (The RVator), but don't have a date or page number reference. So lets put it in the rumor / hearsay column. Since there is 4000 RV's and Van's sells the contactors they have some good service history info and that is what I base my comments on. I am 100% sure Van's Aircraft does indeed recommend the master contactor/relay be mounted so Pos G's works to keep the plunger (contact) close. Why not do that? Also as I said they also say keep vertical contactor vertical since galling occurs with side ways mounting. The excepting is the B&C starter contactor that is horz mount. With a typical Cole-Hersee mater relay that is the pointy end up. So given the choice, which you should have, I would mount it per Van's recommendation, since it makes sense, even if its not absolutly an issue as you say due to the big holding force. I don't want to beat a dead horse, but thanks for your insight. I have a call into Cole-Hersee to see what they say is the G's limits are. If I find any DATA I'll write. Cheers George --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 03:25:49 PM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: More Old Struff --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kevin Horton On 12 Apr 2006, at 14:39, Brian Lloyd wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd yak@lloyd.com> > > A little different. Celestial is based on angles which define a circle > on the surface of the earth. GPS "LOPs" are actually spheres > defined by > a time (distance) from the satellite. One bird defines a sphere. Two > define a circle. Three define two intersecting circles or two points. > Four defines a single point which is why you need to see four > satellites > in order to have three-D navigation. Many GPS receivers use the > altitude > encoder to define a pseudo-range from the center of the earth to > simulate another satellite. It is just another form of LOP. I thought we needed the fourth satellite to correct for inaccuracy in the GPS receiver's clock. Three satellites would be enough, if the receiver had an extremely accurate clock, and you make the assumption that the receiver is somewhere close to the earth's surface. As you say, if you have three satellites, that will give two possible points, but one of those points is way, way out in space, and you can assume that this point is not the right one. The info from the fourth satellite is used to determine the error in the receiver's clock. The clock needs to be correct with nanosecond accuracy to resolve ranges to a few feet. The satellites have extremely accurate, very, very expensive clocks to sync the signals to. But the receivers only have cheap, much less accurate clocks. The lines of position from the fourth satellite don't agree with the ones from the others if there is an error in the receiver's clock. The assumed clock error is adjusted until the info from all satellites agrees. Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) Ottawa, Canada http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 06:47:05 PM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: More Old Struff --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd Matt Prather wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" > > I like the astro-inertial concept, as used on various craft. Forget > jammed GPS. Just have to fly above the clouds. Works in daylight too. > > http://www.dtic.mil/matris/sbir/sbir021/n104.pdf > > What is old is new.. Oh, this is very cool. I want one in my plane. No one can jam it or turn it off. -- Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630 +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . - Antoine de Saint-Exupery ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 06:51:10 PM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: More Old Struff, Was: D AeroElectric-List: Re: (Almost) perfect airplane battery --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd James H Nelson wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: James H Nelson > > Brian, > What a terrible thing to do to our children, learning how to do > something useful in school. tisk, tisk > Especially in the California school system. I am teaching at a private school. You don't think they would let me teach at a public school do you? Heck, just to terrify you some more more, the kids were studying the US Civil War so I brought in a Swiss Army muzzle loader, a Springfield 45-70 "Trap Door", and a Winchester 1873 repeater to show the kids the technology the soldiers were fighting with and how the technology rapidly changed to make mass charges less effective. I gave them a graphic demonstration of the increase in firing rate. Most of the kids had never seen a real firearm before. If it had been a public school I would now be in jail for having a firearm on campus. :-0 -- Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630 +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . - Antoine de Saint-Exupery ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 06:55:08 PM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: More Old Struff --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd Kevin Horton wrote: > I thought we needed the fourth satellite to correct for inaccuracy in > the GPS receiver's clock. That is probably right although most GPS sensors will do 2D nav with just three satellites and assume surface of the earth to resolve the errors. -- Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630 +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . - Antoine de Saint-Exupery ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 08:08:45 PM PST US From: guy fulton Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Off, R, L, Both, Start switch --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: guy fulton After several weeks of searching and asking, there does not appear to be a switch that accomplishes the reverse functions of a magneto type switch. Having said that, I was able to alter a standard switch to preform the necessary tasks. Thanks guy --- bakerocb@cox.net wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: > > > 3/27/2006 > > Hello Guy, So you want to take this notoriously > fickle switch, > > (see this web page for > example//http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/191792-1.html), > > modify it, and put it into your electronic ignition > circuits where a single > point failure can render both of your electronic > ignitions inoperative. > > Why would you want to do that? > > OC > > Time: 09:09:56 PM PST US > From: guy fulton > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Off, R, L, Both, Start > switch > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: guy fulton > > > -=Guy=- > I converted to Dual electronic ignition 2years ago, > now am doing a complete dash replacment. Now use a > series of toggle switches for each of the two > ignition > systems. I wanted to use a standard aircraft > ignition > switch but it works opposite of what is needed for > electronic ignition. Is there an aircraft switch > manufactured that would work with the electronic > ignition? Is there a modification I could make to a > standard switch that would work? > thanks for any help. > > > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > > Admin. > > > > > > > > > > >