Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:51 AM - Re: KY 196 voltage ()
2. 05:20 AM - Re: GPU Plug (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
3. 05:20 AM - Re: Re:Garmin 296 power/battery (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 05:56 AM - Re: SD-8 PM Alternator (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 07:33 AM - Re: Re: KY 196 voltage (Brian Lloyd)
6. 02:21 PM - antenna (Robert G. Wright)
7. 04:22 PM - Re: antenna (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
8. 04:58 PM - B&C L-60 Alternator for sale (James Redmon)
9. 10:29 PM - firewall penetrations (Erich_Weaver@URSCorp.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: KY 196 voltage |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com>
Doug:
Sorry no answer but went down that road, and my conclusion
was a 28volt KY 196 (amps I think 10 amps) could not be
economically or simply be used with a 12 volt plane.
The KY196's ARE cheap on the used market and that was my
motivation. However I don't really need 16 watts transmit power
in a little plane either. It came down to a DC-DC step-up converter.
It was just cheaper and less weight to buy a 12 volt radio.
If the radio had a 5 amp or less draw, fine a single converter
would be tolerable, but 10 amps, that's a lot of juice! Check
the spec, it's not low. It has over 2 times the transmit power
of Coms that suck 6 amps, so I don't think I am off much.
My post will no doubt raise a bunch of experts to prove me
wrong. lol, I hope they do because I would buy a KY196
on the cheap. An inverter is not cheap or light weight.
IMHO, sell it and buy a 12 volt and be done with it.
Cheers George
>From: "Doug Baleshta" <dbaleshta@tru.ca>
>
>--> posted by: "Doug Baleshta" <dbaleshta@tru.ca>
>
>I have a King KY 196 from another project (28v) and was hoping to use
>it in my 12 volt project. Is it at all possible to convert this w/o an
>inverter, 2 batteries etc? Searched the list and couldn't find
>anything. Any suggestions are appreciated.
>
>Thanks
>Doug
>Lancair 360 - 50%
---------------------------------
Message 2
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 10:45 AM 4/13/2006 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Sam Marlow <sam.marlow@adelphia.net>
>
>Can someone point me in the right direction for wiring a GPU plug on my
>RV10, Piper type?
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/grndpwr.pdf
Figure Z-31B of
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev11/AppZ_R11F.pdf
Bob . . .
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re:Garmin 296 power/battery |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 07:01 PM 4/14/2006 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dale Ensing"
><densing@carolina.rr.com>
>
>I am up grading my RV-6A from a Garmin 295 to a 296 and have a question for
>you battery knowledgeable types.
>I plan to hard wire the power/data cord into the airplane just as I did the
>295. The 295 uses AA alkaline batteries. They are only used when the unit is
>turned on without the master being on. -like loading a flight route. - and
>are backup if needed.
>
>The 296 uses a Lithium-ion re-chargeable battery which will be recharged
>each time the master is on and will be used very a little as described
>above. Will this constant charging and little use destroy a lithium-ion
>battery? Do I need to remove the unit and cycle the batteries occasionally?
>Any suggestions?
>Dale Ensing
This is entirely under control of the circuit designers.
It's a reasonable assumption that unless the instructions
for the device caution you against having external power
applied for long periods of time, then it's okay to do
it. I can't imagine any creative designer doing it any other
way. We have three laptops in the family that use L-I batteries
for portable use and ALL are used as many hours or more with
external power plugged in. None of the instruction manuals
suggest that this is a 'bad' thing to do.
Bob . . .
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: SD-8 PM Alternator |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 10:50 PM 4/13/2006 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "J. Mcculley"
><mcculleyja@starpower.net>
>
>Bob N,et al,
>
>There has been periodic discussion on this list in the past about the
>SD-8(& maybe other permanent magnet alternators)not being capable of
>coming on line if the battery or other power source to the buss fails or
>is not otherwise available to activate the SD-8.
>
>I have experimented with a simple idea that solves this situation and
>want to share the info to solicit comments on the suitability or any
>downside features anyone may offer.
>
>The circuit consists of tapping into the SD-8 regulator output and
>feeding that through a diode to the positive side of an electrolytic
>capacitor, grounding the negative lead of the capacitor and connecting a
>spring loaded,normally-open push-button switch across the diode.
>
>After engine start-up and during the subsequent pre-flight system check
>of the SD-8, it charges the capacitor and the diode prevents loss of
>this charge thereafter even if the SD-8 is not left switched on. If
>total loss of electrical power to the buss occurs during flight, the
>SD-8 will come on line by momentarily activating the push button switch
>while also closing the SD-8 switch to the buss.
>
>Through both ground and flight testing, I found no situation where
>it failed to work. An unexpected finding is that the SD-8 will activate
>with as low as 1.0 volt charge on the capacitor! Another bonus is that
>the capacitor leakage rate is so low that from an initial charge of only
>12.5 volts, it requires 2 hours short of 3 full days to leak down to
>10.5 volts! (average of 0.0286 volts per hour). Of course, this rate is
>progressively less as the charge voltage drops further, so if someone
>left the Master on and killed the battery and then wanted to prop the
>engine many days later(more than 2 weeks!)the SD-8 could then be brought
>on line!! BTW,I'm using a 56kmf,16V(20Vsurge)capacitor from Digi-Key,
>P/N P6878-ND, at less than $8. Less capacity should also work
>adequately,but the already small size, weight and cost doesn't
>contribute enough to cause concern.
>
>What puzzles me is how the SD-8 and its regulator can respond to a
>voltage as low as 1.0. Can someone explain this?
First, let me commend you for the time and effort to perceive
some design goals, craft and experiment and publish the results.
Your efforts and questions have prompted me to consider the
self-excitation deficiencies in SD-8 alternator regulators.
Someone sent me a schematic of a Kubota regulator some years
ago. This regulator includes a warning light function and I
believe is typical of most PM regulators including the Ducati
regulators supplied with Rotax engines. I've published the
schematic at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/PM_Regulator/Kubota_Schematic.jpg
If one deletes the features associated with the warning circuit, you get
this:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/PM_Regulator/Kubota_v-reg.jpg
If you focus just on hte warning circuit, here's the details.
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/PM_Regulator/Kubota_Alt-Warn.jpg
You'll note that the warning circuit turns out the light if
the alternator is generating voltage and is not disconnected
from the regulator. This is typical of MOST built-in 'idiot'
lights on alternator regulator systems (and generators) since
day-one. These lights are not definitive annunciations of alternator
performance. There are failure modes that do not light the
light. Hence my long standing recommendation for ACTIVE NOTIFICATION
OF LOW VOLTAGE independent of the alternator's built in features
as being the definitive annunciation for loss-of-alternator.
Your experiments have shown that the regulator will come alive
with a very low voltage available at the 'b-lead'. A study
of the schematic for the Kubota regulator leads one to
conclude that once you have just enough voltage to forward
bias some junctions (The b-e junction of Q3 through R3
and D6) there is a potential for triggering the SCRs and
having the system wake up. I suspect the B&C regulator
is similar.
The system you've crafted has demonstrated some utility
for overcoming the SD-8 regulator's inability to self-excite.
After some thought on the design goal, I thought of another
approach to suggest. Since you're set up for and
have the mind-set to conduct the necessary experiments,
please consider . . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/PM_Regulator/Self_Excitation_Experiment.jpg
What we'd like to do is not let the b-lead voltage out
of the regulator be 100% dependent upon triggered SCRs in
the regulator. Suppose you added a couple of diodes
from the alternator winding along with a resistor to
ground to build a very inefficient keep-alive rectifier.
The two diodes parallel the SCRs but with a conduction
impedance too high for the system to deliver significant
power. We then need some small, fixed 'load' across the
output filter capacitor to prevent the unloaded alternator
voltage (as high as 40v) from charging the capacitor
to a level dangerous to the cap and system equipment
in case the alternator control relay is closed while the
capacitor is charged up.
I've shown a pair of 1K resistors. Use mechanically
hefty resistors . . . the 2W isn't need for electrical
reasons, just mechanical. Adjust the size of the series
resistor at the diodes to achieve a couple of volts or
more (but not greater than 14) across the capacitor
at max engine rpm with the alternator system OFF.
I suspect this resistor might be as high as 3 to 10K
and still make the system sleep with one eye open.
The pilot-operated push-button is not an unreasonable
solution too. At Cessna many moons ago, we crafted
two systems for the same purpose. One used an array
of d-cells, a diode and a push button to provide
the pilot with a means of kick-starting a stalled
alternator that did not have access to the ship's
battery. On the military versions of the 337, we
had tach generators (3-phase PM devices) that were
fitted with rectifiers and push-buttons to do the
same thing and eliminate the need for batteries.
Here, we have an opportunity to go a step further
and modify the regulator's performance such that
it never quite goes to sleep and eliminate the
need for pilot intervention to kick-start the
system. If you can assist in conduction of this
experiment, we can prove/disprove my hypothesis
and perhaps generate an article that will help
others slay this dragon too.
Bob . . .
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: KY 196 voltage |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com wrote:
> My post will no doubt raise a bunch of experts to prove me
> wrong. lol, I hope they do because I would buy a KY196
> on the cheap. An inverter is not cheap or light weight.
I will rise to your bait George.
Given that all comm radios transmit AM and all of them use about the
same technology, their power draw from the bus will be about the same
for a given power output regardless of bus voltage. Most AM transmitters
draw far less from the bus than the fuse-size specification calls for. I
don't know of a single 6-8W transmitter that draws 6A from the 14V bus.
Most require about 20W (I figure about 40% efficiency for an AM
transmitter) and therefore will draw about 1.5A extra when transmitting
(14V). (The radio circuitry burns something like 0.5A just idling.) So
the total draw will be about 2A from the 14V bus at full transmit output.
A 16W radio is going to then need about 40W from the bus. Given that
your DC-DC converter is going to be about 90% efficient, you are going
to need about 45W from the bus at full output. That translates into a
little over 3A at 14V. Throw in something to power the rest of the
circuitry and then something for the wife and kids and your KY196 is
going to really need about 4A from the 14V bus even after adding in for
the converter.
And as for the mass of DC-DC converters, they are all switch-mode
devices these days. They don't weight much at all and their 90%
efficiency means they run pretty cool. Sure Power makes a 10A 14V-to-28V
converter. That should solve the problem and you can probably get it for
about $150. So if you can get a KY196 for $150 less than a KY197 you
break even (except for the effort to install the extra box).
OTOH, once you install the converter you can think about using other 28V
devices.
--
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Message 6
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert G. Wright" <armywrights@adelphia.net>
On Comant's spec sheets for DME/Transponder antennae, what is the
significance of "Power RF?"
Rob
Message 7
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 04:08 PM 4/22/2006 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert G. Wright"
><armywrights@adelphia.net>
>
>On Comant's spec sheets for DME/Transponder antennae, what is the
>significance of "Power RF?"
For antennas, it's the maxiumum rated po
>
>
>Rob
>
>
>--
>
>
Bob . . .
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
Message 8
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| Subject: | B&C L-60 Alternator for sale |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James Redmon" <james@berkut13.com>
I have a B&C L-60 (60-amp alternator) that was mounted to an engine once but
was never used. It's too big to clear the cowl and it needs a good home.
Docs and mounts (boss mount) are included.
It'll be going on ebay shortly, but I wanted to see if there is any interest
in it here first. I wish I could have saved a few bucks on a virtually new
unit when I was buying parts. ;-) Now's your chance to save $100.
$500 and it's yours.
Let me know.
James Redmon
Berkut #013 N97TX
http://www.berkut13.com
Message 9
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| Subject: | firewall penetrations |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Erich_Weaver@URSCorp.com
Listers:
Lots of wire hanging around my RV-7A right now, waiting to be tamed. Im
following the Z-13/8 architecture and using a GRT EFIS/EIS. I labeled
items on the Z-13 figure as being either aft or forward of the firewall,
then sorted through the various EFIS/EIS wire call-outs to make a list of
all the wires needing to go through the firewall so I could plan wire paths
a little better:
1 battery bus to battery contactor
2 battery contactor to the S704-1 relay for the backup alternator
3 battery contactor to main bus
4 master switch to battery contactor
5 push to start switch to starter contactor
6 regulator for back-up alternator to backup alternator (two wires)
7 regulator for main alternator to main alternator
8 left ignition switch to p-mag (two wires)
9 right ignition switch to p-mag (two wires)
10 Groundpower switch to groundpower contactor
11 EIS to CHT(8 wires)
12 EIS to EGT wires (8 wires)
13 EIS to Hall effect current sensor (two wires)
14 Tach (EIS to P-mag)
15 EIS to OAT sensor (not sure where to put OAT sensor yet)
16 EIS to VDO oil pressure sensor
18 EIS to oil temp sensor
19 EIS to fuel pressure sensor (two wires)
I would like to minimize the number of firewall penetrations. Are any of
the above wires likely to cause problems with any others when bundeled
together? Did I overlook any wires?
For practical reasons only, Im considering two penetrations for the wires,
one for the various contactor wires near the left side of the firewall, and
the other for everything else, near the center or slightly to the left.
Any thoughts from those that have been there before would be appreciated
thanks guys
Erich Weaver
Erich Weaver
URS Corporation
130 Robin Hill Rd
Santa Barbara CA 93117
805-964-6010
FAX 805-9640259
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