---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 05/18/06: 17 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:27 AM - Re: Antennas () 2. 04:27 AM - ELT Antenna Placement () 3. 06:48 AM - Re: Re: Antennas (Dan Beadle) 4. 07:09 AM - Re: Antennas (Brian Lloyd) 5. 07:12 AM - Re: Avionics Cooling (Brian Lloyd) 6. 08:09 AM - Re: Re: Antennas (BobsV35B@aol.com) 7. 10:41 AM - Re: Re: Antennas (Hopperdhh@aol.com) 8. 10:56 AM - Re: Re: Antennas (Gilles Thesee) 9. 11:42 AM - Re: (Bill Denton) 10. 11:46 AM - KMA-24 Audio Panel (Scott) 11. 12:03 PM - Z11 architecture question (Gerry Filby) 12. 12:28 PM - Re: KMA-24 Audio Panel (Matt Prather) 13. 12:31 PM - Re: (Brinker) 14. 03:37 PM - Z11 architecture question (Erich_Weaver@URSCorp.com) 15. 03:38 PM - KMA-24 Audio Panel (rd2@evenlink.com) 16. 04:38 PM - Re: Z11 architecture question (Steve Allison) 17. 10:46 PM - Re: Re: Antennas (Brian Lloyd) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:27:02 AM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Antennas --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: >Subject: AeroElectric-List: Antennas >From: "Dan Beadle" > > *Com antenna on belly - poor reception on the ground, but >only have to go short distances. Good in air because it is >looking down at station. Needs to be vertical for a bit to match >the polarization of the ground station. Dan I would disagree in that you are NOT guaranteed poor reception (or transmission) on the ground. I had my COM on the belly of my RV-4 and never had a big problem, even at large towered airports. I do find buildings or hangers are the biggest impediment. I fly large jets and only one airport (LGA) do I have to switch to the #1 radio (antenna on top) to talk to ground/clearance, and that is only when I am in alley way. One of those scary alley ways that where made for piston planes 55 years ago not jets with larger wing spans. >Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Antennas >From: Hopperdhh@aol.com > >An external ELT antenna is best, but few RVs use them. >Quite a bit of drag at 200 mph! Putting the ELT antenna under >the empennage fairing as some are doing is basically no >antenna at all... Dan Hopper Dan: You have to qualify what you mean about quite a bit of drag. I disagree that is quite a bit. From my calculations at 200 MPH the drag penalties are: ELT = 1/8 to 3/16 th mph MAX COM = 0.25 to 0.30 mph MAX Transponder = 0.06 to 0.10 mph MAX Total is less than 2/3 rds mph. The above are from my own calculations. I dusted off my mechanical pencil and aerodynamics book (yes I was an engineer for a large aircraft manufacture at one time.) To back up my numbers here is a quote: *************************************** "There is a recent article in Plane & Pilot which features the Socata Trinidad. Interesting enough, the engineers at Socata actually quantified the cruise speed impact of each antenna:" ADF - .75 knots G/S - .32 knots VOR - .59 knots ELT - .16 knots *************************************** This is for a Aerospatiale-Socata TB-20 with a listed 184 mph cruise and 192 mph top speed so these drag penalties are equivalent for a fast amateur built experimental aircraft. If you assume 1/2 of a VOR is about equal to a COM than 0.25 to 0.30 mph drag at 200 mph is reasonable. The ELT is almost exactly what I calculated. The exaggerate rumors and urban legend of antenna drag are probably spread by people who want you to use wing tip antennas, which perform poorly. Not to mention the long (heavy) coax runs that result in more signal loss. The wing tip antennas also are more troublesome to install. For all you racers and go fast guys, here is an idea that worked for me very well for years on my RV-4. I made it so I could remove the belly COM and VOR antenna in a matter of minutes. I would replace the COM with an antenna in the cockpit for races and performance contest. The VOR was also on the belly under the horizontal stabilizer. With nut plates it came off with two screws and the coax was secured inside the fuselage with a lanyard and then the hole was taped over. To put them back on took as long as it took to remove, a few minutes. If you want to pick you the 2/3 rds to 3/4 MPH, its an idea. Cheers George RV-4/RV-7 __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:27:14 AM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: ELT Antenna Placement --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Responding to an AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "Dan Beadle" I am building RV8. I am trying to figure out all the antenna placements before closing up the wings. ......skip.......* ELT - should be on top - maybe just ahead of Vert Stab.....skip 5/18/2006 Hello Dan, One of my friends commented that I had my ELT antenna installed with improper orientation. I said "Fine, tell me just exactly what attitude my fuselage will be in when I am finished crashing and I will reinstall my antenna accordingly." He smiled and got the point. What attitude will your fuselage be in when you finish crashing? OC PS: The garden variety 121.5 Mhz ELT is just congressionally mandated dead weight. Put the ELT in because you have to. Carry a personal locator beacon because you want to. http://www.sarsat.noaa.gov/emerbcns.html. A cell phone and a hand held VHF comm radio are also beneficial. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:48:23 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Antennas From: "Dan Beadle" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Beadle" Great information. I am convinced about using external Com antenna. Where do you suggest I mount an externally mounted VOR antenna? Vertical Stab seems obvious choice, but antenna cable length is about the same as in wingtip. Dan -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 3:16 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Antennas --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: >Subject: AeroElectric-List: Antennas >From: "Dan Beadle" > > *Com antenna on belly - poor reception on the ground, but >only have to go short distances. Good in air because it is >looking down at station. Needs to be vertical for a bit to match >the polarization of the ground station. Dan I would disagree in that you are NOT guaranteed poor reception (or transmission) on the ground. I had my COM on the belly of my RV-4 and never had a big problem, even at large towered airports. I do find buildings or hangers are the biggest impediment. I fly large jets and only one airport (LGA) do I have to switch to the #1 radio (antenna on top) to talk to ground/clearance, and that is only when I am in alley way. One of those scary alley ways that where made for piston planes 55 years ago not jets with larger wing spans. >Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Antennas >From: Hopperdhh@aol.com > >An external ELT antenna is best, but few RVs use them. >Quite a bit of drag at 200 mph! Putting the ELT antenna under >the empennage fairing as some are doing is basically no >antenna at all... Dan Hopper Dan: You have to qualify what you mean about quite a bit of drag. I disagree that is quite a bit. From my calculations at 200 MPH the drag penalties are: ELT = 1/8 to 3/16 th mph MAX COM = 0.25 to 0.30 mph MAX Transponder = 0.06 to 0.10 mph MAX Total is less than 2/3 rds mph. The above are from my own calculations. I dusted off my mechanical pencil and aerodynamics book (yes I was an engineer for a large aircraft manufacture at one time.) To back up my numbers here is a quote: *************************************** "There is a recent article in Plane & Pilot which features the Socata Trinidad. Interesting enough, the engineers at Socata actually quantified the cruise speed impact of each antenna:" ADF - .75 knots G/S - .32 knots VOR - .59 knots ELT - .16 knots *************************************** This is for a Aerospatiale-Socata TB-20 with a listed 184 mph cruise and 192 mph top speed so these drag penalties are equivalent for a fast amateur built experimental aircraft. If you assume 1/2 of a VOR is about equal to a COM than 0.25 to 0.30 mph drag at 200 mph is reasonable. The ELT is almost exactly what I calculated. The exaggerate rumors and urban legend of antenna drag are probably spread by people who want you to use wing tip antennas, which perform poorly. Not to mention the long (heavy) coax runs that result in more signal loss. The wing tip antennas also are more troublesome to install. For all you racers and go fast guys, here is an idea that worked for me very well for years on my RV-4. I made it so I could remove the belly COM and VOR antenna in a matter of minutes. I would replace the COM with an antenna in the cockpit for races and performance contest. The VOR was also on the belly under the horizontal stabilizer. With nut plates it came off with two screws and the coax was secured inside the fuselage with a lanyard and then the hole was taped over. To put them back on took as long as it took to remove, a few minutes. If you want to pick you the 2/3 rds to 3/4 MPH, its an idea. Cheers George RV-4/RV-7 __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:09:01 AM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Antennas --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd On May 17, 2006, at 8:33 AM, Dan Beadle wrote: > We are planning GNS430, Grand Rapids EFIS with GPS, Garmin XPndr and > Audio Panel. Is this a good antenna match for this equipment? Sounds fine to me. Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630 +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . Antoine de Saint-Exupry ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:12:13 AM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Avionics Cooling --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd On May 17, 2006, at 6:00 PM, Jerry2DT@aol.com wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jerry2DT@aol.com > > Folks, > > I did the test suggested by Brian Lloyd below, and was pleasantly > surprised. > My stack is an EIS4000, 2 Comms, 1 Xponder, 1 Audio Panel. > Started at 83.0f > after 15 mins 87.0, so guess I won't have to mess with no stinkin' > fan....???? BTW, checked over, under, around... Thanks, Brian. You are welcome. How long ago did I write that? It has been awhile. Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630 +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . Antoine de Saint-Exupry ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:09:50 AM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Antennas --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com In a message dated 5/18/2006 9:50:16 A.M. Central Standard Time, Dan.Beadle@hq.InclineSoftworks.com writes: Great information. I am convinced about using external Com antenna. Where do you suggest I mount an externally mounted VOR antenna? Vertical Stab seems obvious choice, but antenna cable length is about the same as in wingtip. Dan Good Morning Dan, If you are going to use an external VHF Nav antenna, consider using a set of blades. They have superior reception patterns and one set can be used to feed two nav receivers and two glide slopes by using an appropriate splitter. Nice looking, no wires to stick in folks eyes, handle icing conditions well and have relatively low drag. Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8503 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:41:04 AM PST US From: Hopperdhh@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Antennas --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Hopperdhh@aol.com George, I went thru the calculations a couple of years ago and came up with somewhat larger numbers than that. At least that's how I remembered it. I guess I was mistaken! I do agree with OC that we don't know how the airplane will end up in a crash. Its not that unlikely that an RV will be on its top (again IMHO). The convenience of an easy installation for the ELT in the baggage compartment of my -7 is what drove my decision as much as anything. At the time, I was in a hurry to get it in the air, and figured that it was a temporary location for the antenna until I figured out the best place. Still trying to figure that one out! Regards, Dan Hopper RV-7A Flying since July 2004 In a message dated 5/18/2006 6:29:51 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com writes: >Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Antennas >From: Hopperdhh@aol.com > >An external ELT antenna is best, but few RVs use them. >Quite a bit of drag at 200 mph! Putting the ELT antenna under >the empennage fairing as some are doing is basically no >antenna at all... Dan Hopper Dan: You have to qualify what you mean about quite a bit of drag. I disagree that is quite a bit. >From my calculations at 200 MPH the drag penalties are: ELT = 1/8 to 3/16 th mph MAX COM = 0.25 to 0.30 mph MAX Transponder = 0.06 to 0.10 mph MAX Total is less than 2/3 rds mph. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:56:19 AM PST US From: Gilles Thesee Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Antennas --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee Hi gmcjetpilot and all, > > *************************************** > "There is a recent article in Plane & Pilot which > features the Socata Trinidad. Interesting enough, > the engineers at Socata actually quantified the > cruise speed impact of each antenna:" > > ADF - .75 knots > G/S - .32 knots > VOR - .59 knots > ELT - .16 knots > *************************************** > > This is for a Aerospatiale-Socata TB-20 with a listed > 184 mph cruise and 192 mph top speed so these > drag penalties are equivalent for a fast amateur built > experimental aircraft. > > If you assume 1/2 of a VOR is about equal to a COM > than 0.25 to 0.30 mph drag at 200 mph is reasonable. > The ELT is almost exactly what I calculated. > > The exaggerate rumors and urban legend of antenna > drag are probably spread by people who want you to > use wing tip antennas, which perform poorly. Glad you took the Socata TB-20 Trinidad as an example. It is a French airplane and its performance is very well known. It takes a Trinidad a 250 hp engine to cruise at 155 knots TAS (75 % power). Your 1.82 knot cruise speed impact on this large draggy spam can amounts to more than 3 % of the Trinidad total drag. That means about 6.5 hp just to carry your antennas in the breeze. Our MCR-4S four seater has a 100 hp engine and cruises at 140 knots TAS. (75 % power). Total drag is much lower. Those same antennas would spend 4.8 hp on our MCR. Much more significant when compared to the 75 hp cruise setting. I'd say something on the order of 2 to 3 knots for an MCR. 3 knots or 5 km/h is something we can easily see on the ASI or when flying formation. That is the difference we currently measure between clean and dirty MCRs. Of course there is no point in hiding antennas on a Pitts or a Cessna, but small and sleek airplanes will really benefit. And it is so easy to do, so why not try ? Regards, Gilles Thesee Grenoble, France http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:42:55 AM PST US From: "Bill Denton" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Denton" The GI-106A is for use with Garmin's "home grown" gear; i.e. GNS 430, GNS 530, etc. The MD200-306 is for use with the "AT" line stuff; i.e. GNS 480, SL30, etc. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of jlundberg@cox.net Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 3:00 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Time: 12:20:05 PM PST US From: "Brinker" Subject: AeroElectric-List: GARMIN GI-106A VS. MD200-306 CDI --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Brinker" Can anyone tell me the difference between the GARMIN GI-106A VS. MD200-306 CDI/LOC/GS ? I have looked at the Garmin description on both and they seem to have the same features. Randy ---I have a Garmin GI-106A and it came in a MidContinent box with installation instructions from MidContinent. John Lundberg ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:46:32 AM PST US From: "Scott" Subject: AeroElectric-List: KMA-24 Audio Panel --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Scott" Does anybody have the pinouts and/or installation manual for a Bendix/King KMA-24 audio panel? I need to figure out how to interface it with my intercom and radios. I've heard it might need a speaker load as well, but that seems questionable to me. Thanks! Scott. N30DD scott@randolphs net ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:03:35 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Z11 architecture question From: Gerry Filby --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gerry Filby I'm in the process of "designing" my electrical system, more-or-less following diagram Z11. I think I get the overall goal - near-automatic shedding of non-essential electrical load in the event of an alternator failure. As my CFI drummed into my head over and over again during emergency procedure training "Fly the airplane !!" - you can't do that if you're head's inside the plane futzing with switches and breakers. The problem I'm having is deciding what's non-essential and what's not. Landing lights can be shut off in-route, but they become very desireable in the terminal area at night - for landing in "comfort". Its almost as though you need 2 essential buses - one for in-route and one for the terminal area. Any thoughts ? __g__ ========================================================== Gerry Filby gerf@gerf.com Tel: 415 203 9177 ---------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 12:28:16 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: KMA-24 Audio Panel From: "Matt Prather" Cc: --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" Bob has graciously provided a place to view a number of avionics pinouts: http://aeroelectric.com/Installation_Data The KMA-24: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Installation_Data/KMA24.pdf Don't know about the speaker load. Regards, Matt- > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Scott" > > Does anybody have the pinouts and/or installation manual for a > Bendix/King KMA-24 audio panel? > > I need to figure out how to interface it with my intercom and radios. > I've heard it might need a speaker load as well, but that seems > questionable to me. > > Thanks! > > Scott. > N30DD > scott@randolphs net > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 12:31:14 PM PST US From: "Brinker" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Brinker" I did get a reply from Garmin stating: These two indicators are almost identical. The GI 106A was designed to work with the GNS430/530's where the MD-200 was designed for the CNX 80 and SL 30's although ether indicator will work with your SL 30 or the GNS's. And also got a reply from Mid Continent stating: The only difference between the two, is the presentation and one annu. The 206 has a v/loc annu and the 306 has a b/c annu. You can view these units on our web sight www.mcico.com. Any questions please call me . Randy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Denton" Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 7:15 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Denton" > > > The GI-106A is for use with Garmin's "home grown" gear; i.e. GNS 430, GNS > 530, etc. > > The MD200-306 is for use with the "AT" line stuff; i.e. GNS 480, SL30, > etc. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of > jlundberg@cox.net > Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 3:00 PM > To: aeroelectric list > Subject: AeroElectric-List: > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: > > Time: 12:20:05 PM PST US > From: "Brinker" > Subject: AeroElectric-List: GARMIN GI-106A VS. MD200-306 CDI > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Brinker" > > > Can anyone tell me the difference between the > GARMIN GI-106A VS. MD200-306 CDI/LOC/GS ? > I have looked at the Garmin description on both and they seem to have the > same features. > > Randy > > ---I have a Garmin GI-106A and it came in a MidContinent box with > installation instructions from MidContinent. > > John Lundberg > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:37:16 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Z11 architecture question From: Erich_Weaver@URSCorp.com --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Erich_Weaver@URSCorp.com Gerry: Went through this same thought process myself a short while ago and am now hip deep in wiring. But did get to turn my master switch on for the first time the other day, and was pleased as punch to hear the battery contactor thump and then be able to turn on my EFIS and light up the screen. Very cool. Im a Z-13 guy, but I dont think you need to worry about near-terminal operations. This is short-time duration stuff and assuming you have a properly maintained battery (which you WILL have lest Bob reach up and personally grab you right out of the sky), you should be able to rely on your battery to make up the extra amps during the time it takes you to get on the ground. Make sense? Erich Weaver ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 03:38:14 PM PST US From: rd2@evenlink.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: KMA-24 Audio Panel --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: rd2@evenlink.com Scott- I don't think the KMA-24 needs a speaker load to function. I have tried it without and it worked. Also make sure you provide a pin T connection (pigtail), even if you don't need it now, in case you want to add non-soft-muted alerts/alarms in the future - will save you a lot of work others (like me) have to sweat about later. Rumen _____________________Original message __________________________ (received from Matt Prather; Date: 01:25 PM 5/18/2006 -0600) ________________________________________________________________ --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" Bob has graciously provided a place to view a number of avionics pinouts: http://aeroelectric.com/Installation_Data The KMA-24: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Installation_Data/KMA24.pdf Don't know about the speaker load. Regards, Matt- > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Scott" > > Does anybody have the pinouts and/or installation manual for a > Bendix/King KMA-24 audio panel? > > I need to figure out how to interface it with my intercom and radios. > I've heard it might need a speaker load as well, but that seems > questionable to me. > > Thanks! > > Scott. > N30DD > scott@randolphs net > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 04:38:42 PM PST US From: Steve Allison Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z11 architecture question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Steve Allison Gerry Filby wrote: > I'm in the process of "designing" my electrical system, > more-or-less following diagram Z11. I think I get the overall > goal - near-automatic shedding of non-essential electrical load > in the event of an alternator failure. > > The problem I'm having is deciding what's non-essential and > what's not. Landing lights can be shut off in-route, but they > become very desireable in the terminal area at night - for > landing in "comfort". > Gerry, Here is what is on my Z11 based e-bus (VFR day/night): turn coordinator, boost pump, panel flood, GPS, COM/intercom, XPONER/encoder, electric elevator trim. The full electrical system load is 20-30 amps, depending on flight configuration (takeoff, landing, cruise, day/night, etc.). Max e-bus load (all e-bus loads ON) is 6.7 amps, typical e-bus load is 5 amps (boost pump OFF). Everything on the e-bus has its own ON/OFF switch (built in or on the panel) except the turn coordinator and electric trim. Minimum e-bus load (all switchable loads OFF) is 0.7 amps. Landing lights are in the nice to have category, rather than essential (at least for me). If really needed after an alternator failure my landing lights can be run by turning the master switch back ON and turning the landing lights ON. At some point after the alternator quits running, switch/breaker settings must be dealt with. The Z11 e-bus design does not eliminate dealing with switches, it just bypasses the no longer needed battery relay with an alternate e-bus feed (to drop the 1 amp relay load). Dealing with switches and breakers does not have to be done immediately. It is ok to take a few minutes (after a few choice words about the alternator :-) ) to run through the alternator failure checklist. Here's mine: alternate e-bus feed ON master OFF panel flood AS REQUIRED avionics AS REQUIRED terminate flight as soon as practical Steve RV-6A ...... under construction.......still ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:46:42 PM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Antennas --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd On May 18, 2006, at 6:40 AM, Dan Beadle wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Beadle" > > > Great information. I am convinced about using external Com antenna. > Where do you suggest I mount an externally mounted VOR antenna? > Vertical Stab seems obvious choice, but antenna cable length is about > the same as in wingtip. Antenna cable length at 108 MHz is really not an issue. Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630 +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . Antoine de Saint-Exupry