Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:12 AM - Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 05/22/06 (Lee Logan)
2. 07:13 AM - Re: Alternator Field Breaker/Switch (Dan Beadle)
3. 07:40 AM - Re: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 05/22/06 (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
4. 08:27 AM - Re: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 05/22/06 (Hopperdhh@aol.com)
5. 09:12 AM - Re: Alternator Field Breaker/Switch (Brian Lloyd)
6. 10:52 AM - Re: Alternator Field Breaker/Switch (Mickey Coggins)
7. 01:15 PM - Re: Marketing research question - Annunciator panels (Carl Morgan)
8. 03:40 PM - alternator field breaker switch (Erich_Weaver@URSCorp.com)
9. 03:46 PM - Re: alternator field breaker switch (Gilles Thesee)
10. 05:04 PM - Re: Alternator Field Breaker/Switch (n801bh@netzero.com)
11. 08:16 PM - Re: alternator field breaker switch (Brian Lloyd)
12. 09:17 PM - Schematics: turbo cad and Z-11 (sarg314)
13. 10:07 PM - Re: Aircraft performance (was Antennas) (Dave Thompson)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 05/22/06 |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Lee Logan" <leeloganster@gmail.com>
Not to jump into the middle of so delicious a cat fight, but you guys might
be interested in this data. I have an insurance company database with
manufacturers specified horsepower, max speed, and 75% cruise speed numbers
for 440 (mostly American) light aircraft. The average horsepower is 220.5,
average top speed is 164.4 knots, and the average manufacturers claimed 75%
power cruise speed is 153.5 knots. That works out to 93.4% of the average
top speed.
Regards,
Lee...
Message 2
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| Subject: | Alternator Field Breaker/Switch |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Beadle" <Dan.Beadle@hq.InclineSoftworks.com>
Think of the alternator as having leverage: you put a little current
into the alternator to get a lot out. Kind of like an amplifier. (Of
course, there is no free lunch - the power for the leverage comes from
the engine a HP load).
The Field switch lets you turn off the demand for power from the
alternator.
WHY would this be important? Suppose you have an electrical fire and
you need to turn off all power to the busses - the field switch is the
key.
Dan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dale
Ensing
Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 8:22 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator Field Breaker/Switch
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dale Ensing"
<densing@carolina.rr.com>
I'm just in the process of designing the electrical system for my RV-7
and I'm trying to figure out why we need a field switch and/or breaker
for the alternator? I've searched and searched, I can find lot's of
information on how to wire it, but as to the questions "why?", or what
does the "field" wire do ; I can find nothing. I'm guessing it is a very
simple answer and it is just my inexperience showing
In simple terms.........
The field switch supplies current to the alternator field which is
required
for the alt. to produce electricity.
The breaker the field switch draws current from is to protect the wiring
in
case of an excessive current such as a short.
Dale Ensing
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 05/22/06 |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Aren't catfights great?
I too have been on the receiving end of massively overinflated speed
claims by kit manufacturers. However if there is one thing everyone says
in their first flight reports of a Vans aircraft is..."Performance as
advertised"...More in some cases.
Other kit's false advertising drove me straight into the arms of the RV
fraternity...Now if only I could get my 7a finished!
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lee
Logan
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 7:05 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 7 Msgs -
05/22/06
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Lee Logan"
--> <leeloganster@gmail.com>
Not to jump into the middle of so delicious a cat fight, but you guys
might be interested in this data. I have an insurance company database
with manufacturers specified horsepower, max speed, and 75% cruise speed
numbers for 440 (mostly American) light aircraft. The average
horsepower is 220.5, average top speed is 164.4 knots, and the average
manufacturers claimed 75% power cruise speed is 153.5 knots. That works
out to 93.4% of the average top speed.
Regards,
Lee...
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 05/22/06 |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Hopperdhh@aol.com
Ah! I agree, I'm not a cat either, but a simple engineer. Let's see, drag
goes up as the square of speed so power required goes up as the cube of speed.
(Power=force x velocity) Force in this case is the thrust required to
overcome the drag. Now, the cube root of .75 is 0.90856. So we should expect
speed at 75 percent power to be 91 percent of the speed at 100 percent power.
Isn't math beautiful?
Dan Hopper
RV-7A Flying 164 hours now. What a wonderful airplane!
In a message dated 5/23/2006 10:43:33 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
frank.hinde@hp.com writes:
Not to jump into the middle of so delicious a cat fight, but you guys
might be interested in this data. I have an insurance company database
with manufacturers specified horsepower, max speed, and 75% cruise speed
numbers for 440 (mostly American) light aircraft. The average
horsepower is 220.5, average top speed is 164.4 knots, and the average
manufacturers claimed 75% power cruise speed is 153.5 knots. That works
out to 93.4% of the average top speed.
Regards,
Lee...
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator Field Breaker/Switch |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
On May 22, 2006, at 7:19 PM, Mark Chamberlain wrote:
> information on how to wire it, but as to the questions "why?", or what
> does the "field" wire do ; I can find nothing. I'm guessing it is a
> very
> simple answer and it is just my inexperience showing through.
If you go back to an elementary science class, someone once told you
that if you wave a magnet around a wire, that wire will produce an
electric current. They also probably told you that if you pass a
current through a wire it will produce a magnetic field around the
wire. This was the amazing discovery of Michael Faraday and upon
which all electrical and radio theory is based.
Some alternators or generators do indeed use a permanent magnet
whirling around inside a coil of wire to produce power but the output
is directly proportional to how fast you spin it. If it makes more
output than you need you must find a way to get rid of the excess.
This is not a problem if the output is relatively small but if you
want something that can produce a lot of output for the times when
you need a lot of output, it produces way too much when you don't
need it all. Hence permanent magnet alternators, officially known as
"dynamos", tend to be small things.
But if you want one that can produce a lot of output when needed but
not much output when not needed you need a way to vary the
effectiveness. If you remember the two things that our buddy Mike
discovered, i.e. that moving magnetism generates an electric current
and moving electrons generate magnetism, you have the basic
components you need. If you want to increase the output of your
alternator at a given rotational velocity you need more magntism and
vice versa. So how can we turn the magnatism up and down as needed?
Why, we use a coil of wire with a current flowing through it. If we
increase the current, the magnetism increases and the output of our
alternator increases. If we reduce the current, the output of our
alternator decreases. This electromagnet is the rotating part of the
alternator. It is called the rotor but it is also called the field
winding from the olden days when we used generators.
A generator has the power-producing windings on the spinning part
called the armature and the magnetic field producing part, the field
windings, around the outside. An alternator has the magnetic field
windings on the spinning part (rotor) and the power-producing coils
(stator) are around the outside. You see I keep using the term
"magnetic field producing part" over again. That just got shortened
over time to the word "field".
So the way this whole thing works is to have an external sensor
determine if the alternator is producing as much power as needed. It
does this by measuring the voltage on the bus. If the voltage is too
low it allows more current to flow through the field winding. This
increases the magnetism in the center of the alternator and that then
induces more output in the stator winding. The voltage rises. If the
voltage gets higher than we want the VR reduces the current in the
field, the magnetic field is decreased, the output of the stator
windings is less, and the voltage at output is reduced. To me this
represents PFM (Pure f'n magic) and is also PFN (pretty f'n neat).
Thanks Mike!
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator Field Breaker/Switch |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
> ...
> So the way this whole thing works is to have an external sensor
> determine if the alternator is producing as much power as needed. It
> does this by measuring the voltage on the bus. If the voltage is too
> low it allows more current to flow through the field winding. This
> increases the magnetism in the center of the alternator and that then
> induces more output in the stator winding. The voltage rises. If the
> voltage gets higher than we want the VR reduces the current in the
> field, the magnetic field is decreased, the output of the stator
> windings is less, and the voltage at output is reduced. To me this
> represents PFM (Pure f'n magic) and is also PFN (pretty f'n neat).
> Thanks Mike!
Couldn't agree more. BTW, thanks for a most excellent description
of how this works, Brian!
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
do not archive
Message 7
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| Subject: | Marketing research question - Annunciator panels |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Carl Morgan" <zk-vii@rvproject.gen.nz>
Hi Bob,
Did anything come of these discussions? I know lots of suggest labels were
put forward, my current challenge is finding the illumination (LED based)
component that is neat, light and can have text on it.....
Thanks,
Carl
--
RV7A - finishing, New Zealand
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert
> L. Nuckolls, III
> Sent: Friday, 10 March 2006 3:21 a.m.
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Marketing research question
>
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls,
> III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
>
> I've got a couple of guys scratching on napkins at Connie's
> El Mexico cafe over ways to do an annunciator system.
> They're considering system sizing and trying to deduce
> whether to craft a 9 or 12 slot annunciator panel. It seems that
> the largest segment of the OBAM aircraft community would have
> trouble filling up a 9-slot annunciator panel.
>
> A 9-slot panel is looking like 4.2 x 1.6 inches. A 12-slot
> would be 5.3 x 1.6 inches. We're considering processes for
> both fabrication and software that would make the product
> highly customizable. I.e. you decide whether incoming signals
> are analog, pull up to bus, pull down to ground, what
> the legends say, and colors of the legends. Of course this
> is a 'dead front' design . . . legends essentially disappear
> when not illuminated.
>
> Just for grins, I'll toss the question out to the list.
> From of the list items below, what additional or alternative
> points of interest might be important enough to light a light
> and/or blow in your ear?
>
> Main Volts Lo
> Aux Volts Lo
> Left Fuel Lo
> Right Fuel Lo
> Oil Pres Lo
> Canopy Latch
> OAT Warn
> Pitot Heat
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
> < the authority which determines whether there can be >
> < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
> < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
> < with experiment. >
> < --Lawrence M. Krauss >
>
>
--
Message 8
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| Subject: | alternator field breaker switch |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Erich_Weaver@URSCorp.com
Thanks for the interesting lesson on alternator fundamentals Brian. But
now you have me curious. Just what does my little 8 or nine amp PM
alternator (dynamo?) that I use as a backup do with the unused amperage
that its constanly generating?
Erich Weaver
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: alternator field breaker switch |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
> Just what does my little 8 or nine amp PM
> alternator (dynamo?) that I use as a backup do with the unused amperage
> that its constanly generating?
>
Erich,
I'd say it is constantly generating VOLTAGE. No amperage if the circuit
is open.
Regards,
Gilles Thesee
Grenoble, France
http://contrails.free.fr
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator Field Breaker/Switch |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "n801bh@netzero.com" <n801bh@netzero.com>
VERY WELL PUT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
this needs to be archived too...
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com> wrote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.co
m>
On May 22, 2006, at 7:19 PM, Mark Chamberlain wrote:
> information on how to wire it, but as to the questions "why?", or what
> does the "field" wire do ; I can find nothing. I'm guessing it is a
> very
> simple answer and it is just my inexperience showing through.
If you go back to an elementary science class, someone once told you
that if you wave a magnet around a wire, that wire will produce an
electric current. They also probably told you that if you pass a
current through a wire it will produce a magnetic field around the
wire. This was the amazing discovery of Michael Faraday and upon
which all electrical and radio theory is based.
Some alternators or generators do indeed use a permanent magnet
whirling around inside a coil of wire to produce power but the output
is directly proportional to how fast you spin it. If it makes more
output than you need you must find a way to get rid of the excess.
This is not a problem if the output is relatively small but if you
want something that can produce a lot of output for the times when
you need a lot of output, it produces way too much when you don't
need it all. Hence permanent magnet alternators, officially known as
"dynamos", tend to be small things.
But if you want one that can produce a lot of output when needed but
not much output when not needed you need a way to vary the
effectiveness. If you remember the two things that our buddy Mike
discovered, i.e. that moving magnetism generates an electric current
and moving electrons generate magnetism, you have the basic
components you need. If you want to increase the output of your
alternator at a given rotational velocity you need more magntism and
vice versa. So how can we turn the magnatism up and down as needed?
Why, we use a coil of wire with a current flowing through it. If we
increase the current, the magnetism increases and the output of our
alternator increases. If we reduce the current, the output of our
alternator decreases. This electromagnet is the rotating part of the
alternator. It is called the rotor but it is also called the field
winding from the olden days when we used generators.
A generator has the power-producing windings on the spinning part
called the armature and the magnetic field producing part, the field
windings, around the outside. An alternator has the magnetic field
windings on the spinning part (rotor) and the power-producing coils
(stator) are around the outside. You see I keep using the term
"magnetic field producing part" over again. That just got shortened
over time to the word "field".
So the way this whole thing works is to have an external sensor
determine if the alternator is producing as much power as needed. It
does this by measuring the voltage on the bus. If the voltage is too
low it allows more current to flow through the field winding. This
increases the magnetism in the center of the alternator and that then
induces more output in the stator winding. The voltage rises. If the
voltage gets higher than we want the VR reduces the current in the
field, the magnetic field is decreased, the output of the stator
windings is less, and the voltage at output is reduced. To me this
represents PFM (Pure f'n magic) and is also PFN (pretty f'n neat).
Thanks Mike!
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
=======================
==========
=======================
==========
=======================
==========
=======================
==========
<html><P>VERY WELL PUT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
</P>
<P>this needs to be archived too...<BR><BR><BR>Ben Haas<BR>N801BH<B
R>www.haaspowerair.com<BR><BR>-- Brian Lloyd <brian-ya
k@lloyd.com> wrote:<BR>--> AeroElectric-List messag
e posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.co
m><BR><BR>On May 22, 2006, at 7:19 PM,&
nbsp;Mark Chamberlain wrote:<BR>> information on&
nbsp;how to wire it, but as to the&nb
sp;questions "why?", or what<BR>> does the&n
bsp;"field" wire do ; I can find noth
ing. I'm guessing it is a <BR>>&n
bsp;very<BR>> simple answer and it is j
ust my inexperience showing through.<BR><BR>If
you go back to an elementary science
class, someone once told you <BR>that&nbs
p;if you wave a magnet around a wire,
that wire will produce an <BR>elect
ric current. They also probably told you&n
bsp;that if you pass a <BR>current t
hrough a wire it will produce a magne
tic field around the <BR>wire. This
was the amazing discovery of Michael Farad
ay and upon <BR>which all electrical 
;and radio theory is based.<BR><BR>Some alterna
tors or generators do indeed use a pe
rmanent magnet <BR>whirling around inside 
;a coil of wire to produce power but&
nbsp;the output <BR>is directly proportional&n
bsp;to how fast you spin it. If it&nb
sp;makes more <BR>output than you need&nb
sp;you must find a way to get rid&nbs
p;of the excess. <BR>This is not a&n
bsp;problem if the output is relatively sm
all but if you <BR>want something th
at can produce a lot of output for&nb
sp;the times when <BR>you need a lot
of output, it produces way too much&
nbsp;when you don't <BR>need it all. 
;Hence permanent magnet alternators, officially 
;known as <BR>"dynamos", tend to be
small things.<BR><BR>But if you want one t
hat can produce a lot of output when&
nbsp;needed but <BR>not much output when&
nbsp;not needed you need a way to var
y the <BR>effectiveness. If you remember&
nbsp;the two things that our buddy Mike&nb
sp; <BR>discovered, i.e. that moving magnetism&
nbsp;generates an electric current <BR>and&nbs
p;moving electrons generate magnetism, you have
the basic <BR>components you need.
If you want to increase the output of
your <BR>alternator at a given rota
tional velocity you need more magntism and
<BR>vice versa. So how can we
turn the magnatism up and down as nee
ded? <BR>Why, we use a coil of
wire with a current flowing through it.&nb
sp;If we <BR>increase the current, the&nb
sp;magnetism increases and the output of o
ur <BR>alternator increases. If we reduce
the current, the output of our  
;<BR>alternator decreases. This electromagnet is&nbs
p;the rotating part of the <BR>alternator
. It is called the rotor but it
is also called the field <BR>winding 
;from the olden days when we used gen
erators.<BR><BR>A generator has the power-producing&
nbsp;windings on the spinning part <BR>ca
lled the armature and the magnetic field&n
bsp;producing part, the field <BR>windings,&nb
sp;around the outside. An alternator has t
he magnetic field <BR>windings on the&nbs
p;spinning part (rotor) and the power-producing
coils <BR>(stator) are around the o
utside. You see I keep using the term
<BR>"magnetic field producing part" over
again. That just got shortened <BR>
over time to the word "field".<BR><BR>So t
he way this whole thing works is to&n
bsp;have an external sensor <BR>determine 
;if the alternator is producing as much&nb
sp;power as needed. It <BR>does this 
;by measuring the voltage on the bus. 
;If the voltage is too <BR>low it&nb
sp;allows more current to flow through the
field winding. This <BR>increases the&nb
sp;magnetism in the center of the alternat
or and that then <BR>induces more ou
tput in the stator winding. The voltage&nb
sp;rises. If the <BR>voltage gets higher&
nbsp;than we want the VR reduces the
current in the <BR>field, the magnetic&nb
sp;field is decreased, the output of the&n
bsp;stator <BR>windings is less, and the&
nbsp;voltage at output is reduced. To me&n
bsp;this <BR>represents PFM (Pure f'n mag
ic) and is also PFN (pretty f'n neat)
. <BR>Thanks Mike!<BR><BR>Brian Lloyd &n
bsp; &n
bsp; 361 
;Catterline Way<BR>brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com&n
bsp; Folsom, C
A 95630<BR>+1.916.367.2131 (voice) &nbs
p; +1.270.912.0788 (
fax)<BR><BR>I fly because it releases my m
ind from the tyranny of petty things
. . .<BR> Antoine de Saint-Exupry<BR><BR><BR><B
=======================
sp; - The AeroE
p;Matronics List Features Navigator to browse<B
bsp;& Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,<BR
sp;--> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List<BR>_
-=======================
=======================
sp; - NEW 
the All New Matronics Email List Wiki!<BR>
nbsp; &
nbsp; &
=======================
=======================
sp; - List Contribution Web S
nbsp; &
nbsp; -
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=======================
<BR><BR><BR><BR> <BR> <BR> <BR><BR><BR><BR></P></html>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: alternator field breaker switch |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
On May 23, 2006, at 3:32 PM, Erich_Weaver@URSCorp.com wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Erich_Weaver@URSCorp.com
>
>
> Thanks for the interesting lesson on alternator fundamentals
> Brian. But
> now you have me curious. Just what does my little 8 or nine amp PM
> alternator (dynamo?) that I use as a backup do with the unused
> amperage
> that its constanly generating?
Well, it doesn't generate any amps if there is no load but it does
generate voltage.
I haven't looked at how B&C regulates its dynamo but I have seen both
shunt and series regulators used with dynamos. A shunt regulator
draws current from the dynamo until its output drops to what you
want. The regulator just burns up the excess as heat. In the case of
a series regulator a pass transistor functions as a variable resistor
to drop the voltage to the desired value.
Nowadays they are probably using switch-mode regulators which are
much more efficient.
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
Message 12
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| Subject: | Schematics: turbo cad and Z-11 |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: sarg314 <sarg314@comcast.net>
I was looking over the cad software that is supplied on the Aeroelectric
CDROM. Turbo cad looks quite usable. Does Bob, or any one have the
standard Z-11 schematic already rendered in a turbo cad file? It would
save a lot of work compared to starting from scratch.
--
Tom Sargent
RV-6A
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Aircraft performance (was Antennas) |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Thompson" <dave.thompson@verizon.net>
You guys are talking about efficiency.
Here=92s some real trivia! Way back in the early 80=92s there was an
efficiency
race in Central California called the Caf=E9 250. One year, My Dad=92s
Quickie
WON with only an 18HP engine. I don=92t know any other details except
the
pilot was the late Col. Martin Fisher. Several months later, the Quickie
had
a forced landing and was lost in the Arizona Desert en-rout to Oshkosh.
Nobody was hurt. I was told that the win really P=92d-off some of the
=93big
guys=94.
Dave Thompson
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