---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 05/23/06: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:12 AM - Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 05/22/06 (Lee Logan) 2. 07:13 AM - Re: Alternator Field Breaker/Switch (Dan Beadle) 3. 07:40 AM - Re: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 05/22/06 (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 4. 08:27 AM - Re: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 05/22/06 (Hopperdhh@aol.com) 5. 09:12 AM - Re: Alternator Field Breaker/Switch (Brian Lloyd) 6. 10:52 AM - Re: Alternator Field Breaker/Switch (Mickey Coggins) 7. 01:15 PM - Re: Marketing research question - Annunciator panels (Carl Morgan) 8. 03:40 PM - alternator field breaker switch (Erich_Weaver@URSCorp.com) 9. 03:46 PM - Re: alternator field breaker switch (Gilles Thesee) 10. 05:04 PM - Re: Alternator Field Breaker/Switch (n801bh@netzero.com) 11. 08:16 PM - Re: alternator field breaker switch (Brian Lloyd) 12. 09:17 PM - Schematics: turbo cad and Z-11 (sarg314) 13. 10:07 PM - Re: Aircraft performance (was Antennas) (Dave Thompson) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:12:31 AM PST US From: "Lee Logan" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 05/22/06 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Lee Logan" Not to jump into the middle of so delicious a cat fight, but you guys might be interested in this data. I have an insurance company database with manufacturers specified horsepower, max speed, and 75% cruise speed numbers for 440 (mostly American) light aircraft. The average horsepower is 220.5, average top speed is 164.4 knots, and the average manufacturers claimed 75% power cruise speed is 153.5 knots. That works out to 93.4% of the average top speed. Regards, Lee... ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:13:27 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Alternator Field Breaker/Switch From: "Dan Beadle" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Beadle" Think of the alternator as having leverage: you put a little current into the alternator to get a lot out. Kind of like an amplifier. (Of course, there is no free lunch - the power for the leverage comes from the engine a HP load). The Field switch lets you turn off the demand for power from the alternator. WHY would this be important? Suppose you have an electrical fire and you need to turn off all power to the busses - the field switch is the key. Dan -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dale Ensing Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 8:22 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator Field Breaker/Switch --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dale Ensing" I'm just in the process of designing the electrical system for my RV-7 and I'm trying to figure out why we need a field switch and/or breaker for the alternator? I've searched and searched, I can find lot's of information on how to wire it, but as to the questions "why?", or what does the "field" wire do ; I can find nothing. I'm guessing it is a very simple answer and it is just my inexperience showing In simple terms......... The field switch supplies current to the alternator field which is required for the alt. to produce electricity. The breaker the field switch draws current from is to protect the wiring in case of an excessive current such as a short. Dale Ensing ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:40:26 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 05/22/06 From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Aren't catfights great? I too have been on the receiving end of massively overinflated speed claims by kit manufacturers. However if there is one thing everyone says in their first flight reports of a Vans aircraft is..."Performance as advertised"...More in some cases. Other kit's false advertising drove me straight into the arms of the RV fraternity...Now if only I could get my 7a finished! Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Lee Logan Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 7:05 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 05/22/06 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Lee Logan" --> Not to jump into the middle of so delicious a cat fight, but you guys might be interested in this data. I have an insurance company database with manufacturers specified horsepower, max speed, and 75% cruise speed numbers for 440 (mostly American) light aircraft. The average horsepower is 220.5, average top speed is 164.4 knots, and the average manufacturers claimed 75% power cruise speed is 153.5 knots. That works out to 93.4% of the average top speed. Regards, Lee... ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:27:05 AM PST US From: Hopperdhh@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 05/22/06 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Hopperdhh@aol.com Ah! I agree, I'm not a cat either, but a simple engineer. Let's see, drag goes up as the square of speed so power required goes up as the cube of speed. (Power=force x velocity) Force in this case is the thrust required to overcome the drag. Now, the cube root of .75 is 0.90856. So we should expect speed at 75 percent power to be 91 percent of the speed at 100 percent power. Isn't math beautiful? Dan Hopper RV-7A Flying 164 hours now. What a wonderful airplane! In a message dated 5/23/2006 10:43:33 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, frank.hinde@hp.com writes: Not to jump into the middle of so delicious a cat fight, but you guys might be interested in this data. I have an insurance company database with manufacturers specified horsepower, max speed, and 75% cruise speed numbers for 440 (mostly American) light aircraft. The average horsepower is 220.5, average top speed is 164.4 knots, and the average manufacturers claimed 75% power cruise speed is 153.5 knots. That works out to 93.4% of the average top speed. Regards, Lee... ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:12:18 AM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator Field Breaker/Switch --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd On May 22, 2006, at 7:19 PM, Mark Chamberlain wrote: > information on how to wire it, but as to the questions "why?", or what > does the "field" wire do ; I can find nothing. I'm guessing it is a > very > simple answer and it is just my inexperience showing through. If you go back to an elementary science class, someone once told you that if you wave a magnet around a wire, that wire will produce an electric current. They also probably told you that if you pass a current through a wire it will produce a magnetic field around the wire. This was the amazing discovery of Michael Faraday and upon which all electrical and radio theory is based. Some alternators or generators do indeed use a permanent magnet whirling around inside a coil of wire to produce power but the output is directly proportional to how fast you spin it. If it makes more output than you need you must find a way to get rid of the excess. This is not a problem if the output is relatively small but if you want something that can produce a lot of output for the times when you need a lot of output, it produces way too much when you don't need it all. Hence permanent magnet alternators, officially known as "dynamos", tend to be small things. But if you want one that can produce a lot of output when needed but not much output when not needed you need a way to vary the effectiveness. If you remember the two things that our buddy Mike discovered, i.e. that moving magnetism generates an electric current and moving electrons generate magnetism, you have the basic components you need. If you want to increase the output of your alternator at a given rotational velocity you need more magntism and vice versa. So how can we turn the magnatism up and down as needed? Why, we use a coil of wire with a current flowing through it. If we increase the current, the magnetism increases and the output of our alternator increases. If we reduce the current, the output of our alternator decreases. This electromagnet is the rotating part of the alternator. It is called the rotor but it is also called the field winding from the olden days when we used generators. A generator has the power-producing windings on the spinning part called the armature and the magnetic field producing part, the field windings, around the outside. An alternator has the magnetic field windings on the spinning part (rotor) and the power-producing coils (stator) are around the outside. You see I keep using the term "magnetic field producing part" over again. That just got shortened over time to the word "field". So the way this whole thing works is to have an external sensor determine if the alternator is producing as much power as needed. It does this by measuring the voltage on the bus. If the voltage is too low it allows more current to flow through the field winding. This increases the magnetism in the center of the alternator and that then induces more output in the stator winding. The voltage rises. If the voltage gets higher than we want the VR reduces the current in the field, the magnetic field is decreased, the output of the stator windings is less, and the voltage at output is reduced. To me this represents PFM (Pure f'n magic) and is also PFN (pretty f'n neat). Thanks Mike! Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630 +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . Antoine de Saint-Exupry ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:52:49 AM PST US From: Mickey Coggins Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator Field Breaker/Switch --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins > ... > So the way this whole thing works is to have an external sensor > determine if the alternator is producing as much power as needed. It > does this by measuring the voltage on the bus. If the voltage is too > low it allows more current to flow through the field winding. This > increases the magnetism in the center of the alternator and that then > induces more output in the stator winding. The voltage rises. If the > voltage gets higher than we want the VR reduces the current in the > field, the magnetic field is decreased, the output of the stator > windings is less, and the voltage at output is reduced. To me this > represents PFM (Pure f'n magic) and is also PFN (pretty f'n neat). > Thanks Mike! Couldn't agree more. BTW, thanks for a most excellent description of how this works, Brian! -- Mickey Coggins http://www.rv8.ch/ #82007 finishing do not archive ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:15:34 PM PST US From: "Carl Morgan" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Marketing research question - Annunciator panels --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Carl Morgan" Hi Bob, Did anything come of these discussions? I know lots of suggest labels were put forward, my current challenge is finding the illumination (LED based) component that is neat, light and can have text on it..... Thanks, Carl -- RV7A - finishing, New Zealand > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert > L. Nuckolls, III > Sent: Friday, 10 March 2006 3:21 a.m. > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Marketing research question > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, > III" > > I've got a couple of guys scratching on napkins at Connie's > El Mexico cafe over ways to do an annunciator system. > They're considering system sizing and trying to deduce > whether to craft a 9 or 12 slot annunciator panel. It seems that > the largest segment of the OBAM aircraft community would have > trouble filling up a 9-slot annunciator panel. > > A 9-slot panel is looking like 4.2 x 1.6 inches. A 12-slot > would be 5.3 x 1.6 inches. We're considering processes for > both fabrication and software that would make the product > highly customizable. I.e. you decide whether incoming signals > are analog, pull up to bus, pull down to ground, what > the legends say, and colors of the legends. Of course this > is a 'dead front' design . . . legends essentially disappear > when not illuminated. > > Just for grins, I'll toss the question out to the list. > From of the list items below, what additional or alternative > points of interest might be important enough to light a light > and/or blow in your ear? > > Main Volts Lo > Aux Volts Lo > Left Fuel Lo > Right Fuel Lo > Oil Pres Lo > Canopy Latch > OAT Warn > Pitot Heat > > > Bob . . . > > > < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > > < the authority which determines whether there can be > > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > > < with experiment. > > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > > > -- ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:40:23 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: alternator field breaker switch From: Erich_Weaver@URSCorp.com --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Erich_Weaver@URSCorp.com Thanks for the interesting lesson on alternator fundamentals Brian. But now you have me curious. Just what does my little 8 or nine amp PM alternator (dynamo?) that I use as a backup do with the unused amperage that its constanly generating? Erich Weaver ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:46:15 PM PST US From: Gilles Thesee Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: alternator field breaker switch --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee > Just what does my little 8 or nine amp PM > alternator (dynamo?) that I use as a backup do with the unused amperage > that its constanly generating? > Erich, I'd say it is constantly generating VOLTAGE. No amperage if the circuit is open. Regards, Gilles Thesee Grenoble, France http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:04:36 PM PST US From: "n801bh@netzero.com" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator Field Breaker/Switch --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "n801bh@netzero.com" VERY WELL PUT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! this needs to be archived too... Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com -- Brian Lloyd wrote: --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd On May 22, 2006, at 7:19 PM, Mark Chamberlain wrote: > information on how to wire it, but as to the questions "why?", or what > does the "field" wire do ; I can find nothing. I'm guessing it is a > very > simple answer and it is just my inexperience showing through. If you go back to an elementary science class, someone once told you that if you wave a magnet around a wire, that wire will produce an electric current. They also probably told you that if you pass a current through a wire it will produce a magnetic field around the wire. This was the amazing discovery of Michael Faraday and upon which all electrical and radio theory is based. Some alternators or generators do indeed use a permanent magnet whirling around inside a coil of wire to produce power but the output is directly proportional to how fast you spin it. If it makes more output than you need you must find a way to get rid of the excess. This is not a problem if the output is relatively small but if you want something that can produce a lot of output for the times when you need a lot of output, it produces way too much when you don't need it all. Hence permanent magnet alternators, officially known as "dynamos", tend to be small things. But if you want one that can produce a lot of output when needed but not much output when not needed you need a way to vary the effectiveness. If you remember the two things that our buddy Mike discovered, i.e. that moving magnetism generates an electric current and moving electrons generate magnetism, you have the basic components you need. If you want to increase the output of your alternator at a given rotational velocity you need more magntism and vice versa. So how can we turn the magnatism up and down as needed? Why, we use a coil of wire with a current flowing through it. If we increase the current, the magnetism increases and the output of our alternator increases. If we reduce the current, the output of our alternator decreases. This electromagnet is the rotating part of the alternator. It is called the rotor but it is also called the field winding from the olden days when we used generators. A generator has the power-producing windings on the spinning part called the armature and the magnetic field producing part, the field windings, around the outside. An alternator has the magnetic field windings on the spinning part (rotor) and the power-producing coils (stator) are around the outside. You see I keep using the term "magnetic field producing part" over again. That just got shortened over time to the word "field". So the way this whole thing works is to have an external sensor determine if the alternator is producing as much power as needed. It does this by measuring the voltage on the bus. If the voltage is too low it allows more current to flow through the field winding. This increases the magnetism in the center of the alternator and that then induces more output in the stator winding. The voltage rises. If the voltage gets higher than we want the VR reduces the current in the field, the magnetic field is decreased, the output of the stator windings is less, and the voltage at output is reduced. To me this represents PFM (Pure f'n magic) and is also PFN (pretty f'n neat). Thanks Mike! Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630 +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . Antoine de Saint-Exupry ======================= ========== ======================= ========== ======================= ========== ======================= ==========

VERY WELL PUT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

this needs to be archived too...


Ben Haas
N801BHwww.haaspowerair.com

-- Brian Lloyd <brian-ya k@lloyd.com> wrote:
--> AeroElectric-List messag e posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.co m>

On May 22, 2006, at 7:19 PM,& nbsp;Mark Chamberlain wrote:
> information on& nbsp;how to wire it, but as to the&nb sp;questions "why?", or what
> does the&n bsp;"field" wire do ; I can find noth ing. I'm guessing it is a  
>&n bsp;very
> simple answer and it is j ust my inexperience showing through.

If  you go back to an elementary science  class, someone once told you  
that&nbs p;if you wave a magnet around a wire,  that wire will produce an  
elect ric current. They also probably told you&n bsp;that if you pass a  
current t hrough a wire it will produce a magne tic field around the  
wire. This  was the amazing discovery of Michael Farad ay and upon  
which all electrical  ;and radio theory is based.

Some alterna tors or generators do indeed use a pe rmanent magnet  
whirling around inside  ;a coil of wire to produce power but& nbsp;the output  
is directly proportional&n bsp;to how fast you spin it. If it&nb sp;makes more  
output than you need&nb sp;you must find a way to get rid&nbs p;of the excess.  
This is not a&n bsp;problem if the output is relatively sm all but if you  
want something th at can produce a lot of output for&nb sp;the times when  
you need a lot  of output, it produces way too much& nbsp;when you don't  
need it all.  ;Hence permanent magnet alternators, officially  ;known as  
"dynamos", tend to be  small things.

But if you want one t hat can produce a lot of output when& nbsp;needed but  
not much output when& nbsp;not needed you need a way to var y the  
effectiveness. If you remember& nbsp;the two things that our buddy Mike&nb sp; 
discovered, i.e. that moving magnetism& nbsp;generates an electric current  
and&nbs p;moving electrons generate magnetism, you have  the basic  
components you need.  If you want to increase the output of  your  
alternator at a given rota tional velocity you need more magntism and   
vice versa. So how can we  turn the magnatism up and down as nee ded?  
Why, we use a coil of  wire with a current flowing through it.&nb sp;If we  
increase the current, the&nb sp;magnetism increases and the output of o ur  
alternator increases. If we reduce  the current, the output of our   ;
alternator decreases. This electromagnet is&nbs p;the rotating part of the  
alternator . It is called the rotor but it  is also called the field  
winding  ;from the olden days when we used gen erators.

A generator has the power-producing& nbsp;windings on the spinning part  
ca lled the armature and the magnetic field&n bsp;producing part, the field  
windings,&nb sp;around the outside. An alternator has t he magnetic field  
windings on the&nbs p;spinning part (rotor) and the power-producing  coils  
(stator) are around the o utside. You see I keep using the term   
"magnetic field producing part" over  again. That just got shortened  
over time to the word "field".

So t he way this whole thing works is to&n bsp;have an external sensor  
determine  ;if the alternator is producing as much&nb sp;power as needed. It  
does this  ;by measuring the voltage on the bus.  ;If the voltage is too  
low it&nb sp;allows more current to flow through the  field winding. This  
increases the&nb sp;magnetism in the center of the alternat or and that then  
induces more ou tput in the stator winding. The voltage&nb sp;rises. If the  
voltage gets higher& nbsp;than we want the VR reduces the  current in the  
field, the magnetic&nb sp;field is decreased, the output of the&n bsp;stator  
windings is less, and the& nbsp;voltage at output is reduced. To me&n bsp;this  
represents PFM (Pure f'n mag ic) and is also PFN (pretty f'n neat) .  
Thanks Mike!

Brian Lloyd  &n bsp;           &n bsp;          361  ;Catterline Way
brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com&n bsp;         Folsom, C A 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice)    &nbs p;        +1.270.912.0788 ( fax)

I fly because it releases my m ind from the tyranny of petty things  . . .
 Antoine de Saint-Exupry


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nbsp;           & nbsp;           & ======================= ======================= sp;    - List Contribution Web S nbsp;           & nbsp;           - ======================= =======================



 
 
 



________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:16:52 PM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: alternator field breaker switch --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd On May 23, 2006, at 3:32 PM, Erich_Weaver@URSCorp.com wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Erich_Weaver@URSCorp.com > > > Thanks for the interesting lesson on alternator fundamentals > Brian. But > now you have me curious. Just what does my little 8 or nine amp PM > alternator (dynamo?) that I use as a backup do with the unused > amperage > that its constanly generating? Well, it doesn't generate any amps if there is no load but it does generate voltage. I haven't looked at how B&C regulates its dynamo but I have seen both shunt and series regulators used with dynamos. A shunt regulator draws current from the dynamo until its output drops to what you want. The regulator just burns up the excess as heat. In the case of a series regulator a pass transistor functions as a variable resistor to drop the voltage to the desired value. Nowadays they are probably using switch-mode regulators which are much more efficient. Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630 +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . Antoine de Saint-Exupry ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:17:53 PM PST US From: sarg314 Subject: AeroElectric-List: Schematics: turbo cad and Z-11 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: sarg314 I was looking over the cad software that is supplied on the Aeroelectric CDROM. Turbo cad looks quite usable. Does Bob, or any one have the standard Z-11 schematic already rendered in a turbo cad file? It would save a lot of work compared to starting from scratch. -- Tom Sargent RV-6A ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:07:39 PM PST US From: "Dave Thompson" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft performance (was Antennas) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Thompson" You guys are talking about efficiency. Here=92s some real trivia! Way back in the early 80=92s there was an efficiency race in Central California called the Caf=E9 250. One year, My Dad=92s Quickie WON with only an 18HP engine. I don=92t know any other details except the pilot was the late Col. Martin Fisher. Several months later, the Quickie had a forced landing and was lost in the Arizona Desert en-rout to Oshkosh. Nobody was hurt. I was told that the win really P=92d-off some of the =93big guys=94. Dave Thompson Do not archive