Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:30 AM - Re: 90 degree BNC (Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta))
2. 05:30 AM - Re: Grounding question (Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta))
3. 05:30 AM - Re: 90 degree BNC (Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta))
4. 06:05 AM - Re: Grounding question (Glaeser, Dennis A)
5. 07:15 AM - Chapter 8 Update (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 07:15 AM - Re: 90 degree BNC (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 07:17 AM - Re: Grounding question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
8. 07:23 AM - Re: Re: Grounding question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
9. 07:36 AM - Electrical grounding block (Sam Marlow)
10. 08:15 AM - Re: Grounding question (Mickey Coggins)
11. 08:15 AM - Re: Electrical grounding block (George Neal E Capt HQ AU/XPRR)
12. 08:15 AM - Re: Grounding question (Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta))
13. 08:16 AM - Re: 90 degree BNC (Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta))
14. 09:41 AM - A mechanical model of the electrical system (was: Grounding question) (Brian Lloyd)
15. 09:41 AM - Re: Electrical grounding block (Bill Steer)
16. 09:58 AM - Grounding Question (Larry E. James)
17. 10:22 AM - Making those funny holes (Craig Payne)
18. 10:22 AM - Re: ELT Antenna Placement ()
19. 10:39 AM - Re: Making those funny holes (Dj Merrill)
20. 10:41 AM - Re: A mechanical model of the electrical system (was: Grounding question) (Mickey Coggins)
21. 11:02 AM - Re: Re: ELT Antenna Placement (Craig Payne)
22. 11:19 AM - Re: Making those funny holes (Craig Payne)
23. 11:35 AM - Re: Grounding question (steveadams)
24. 11:57 AM - Re: Re: ELT Antenna Placement (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
25. 01:32 PM - Re: Making those funny holes (James H Nelson)
26. 01:32 PM - Re: Making those funny holes (LarryMcFarland)
27. 02:07 PM - Re: Making those funny holes (Craig Payne)
28. 02:43 PM - Re: Making those funny holes (Matt Prather)
29. 05:26 PM - Re: Electrical grounding block (LarryRobertHelming)
30. 06:20 PM - Re: Making those funny holes (Jim Michael)
31. 08:03 PM - Century IV Schematics (Peter Davidson)
32. 08:17 PM - What is essential (was: Z11 architecture question) ()
33. 09:43 PM - Re: What is essential (was: Z11 architecture question) (Brian Lloyd)
Message 1
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" <mstewart@iss.net>
Nope. That big square rectangle making the 90 degree turn is too much.
I got some of those.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob
C.
Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 10:41 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 90 degree BNC
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bob C. "
<flyboy.bob@gmail.com>
Stein has 90 deg connectors . . . don't know if it's exactly what you
are looking for?
see: http://www.steinair.com/connectors.htm
Regards,
Bob in SE Iowa
On 5/25/06, Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta) <mstewart@iss.net> wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS
Atlanta)" <mstewart@iss.net>
>
> OK here we go again.
>
> I have searched high and low in the archives. No Joy.
>
> There was a bnc connector that allowed you to crimp or solder a ring
on
> the center conductor of the coax and then use a tiny screw to screw
the
> ring to the connector to allow for a for what amount to a 90 degree
BNC.
> I read Bobs trick, and I don't have room for that. Does someone have a
> link and a source for what Im asking for?
>
> Trying to connect coax to the back of a Garmin radio that's up against
a
> bulkhead.
>
> Thanks
>
> Mike
>
> Do not archive. Remove if you have the answer.
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Grounding question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" <mstewart@iss.net>
In my case in my RV Super 8 with my Batt in the back, I grounded it
locally & ran a 12ga to the front, from the battery, for grounding of
all the 'stuff' to a single point. I have a perfectly quiet electrical
system. For all practical purposes, only the starter & alternator, are
using the airframe ground.
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Richard Sipp
Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 12:24 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Grounding question
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Richard Sipp"
<rsipp@earthlink.net>
Deems,
I asked the exact same question about 6-8 months ago, answer: try it as
the
plans suggest and see if it works OK.
I still have not made up my mind. Grounding the battery locally to the
airframe will probably work fine, but on the other hand I would much
rather
run the ground cable now while it is easy rather than later after the
airplane is flying. I don't like the weight but will probably run the
bat
ground to the common ground at the firewall. It may not be much of a
factor
but all of my structural parts were primed before assembly so there are
numerous thin coats of paint in an airframe ground path.
Dick Sipp
40065
----- Original Message -----
From: "Deems Davis" <deemsdavis@cox.net>
Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 1:51 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Grounding question
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Deems Davis
<deemsdavis@cox.net>
>
> The RV-10 requires the battery to be mounted aft of the baggage area
for
> CG purposes. I just got back from Bob's seminar and like the idea of a
> common ground buss on the firewall. (with the engine grounded on the
> forward side and everything else on the aft side) In Van's wiring
> harness they have the battery grounded to the airframe close to where
> it's mounted. (way aft) I would prefer to not have to pull/run two
(pos
> & neg) 8-10 ft #2 welding cables all the way from the battery
forward.
> If I were to ground the battery close to it's mount on the airframe,
> whould this cause any problems using a 'common ground buss'?
>
> Thanks for any illumination to this 'electron challenged' builder.
>
> Deems Davis # 406
> Fuse
> http://deemsrv10.com/
>
>
>
Message 3
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" <mstewart@iss.net>
Yes bob I believe that would work, albeit a little tougher to fabricate.
Whats the square u tube made of?
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 11:12 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 90 degree BNC
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 09:02 AM 5/25/2006 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS
Atlanta)"
><mstewart@iss.net>
>
>OK here we go again.
>
>I have searched high and low in the archives. No Joy.
>
>There was a bnc connector that allowed you to crimp or solder a ring on
>the center conductor of the coax and then use a tiny screw to screw the
>ring to the connector to allow for a for what amount to a 90 degree
BNC.
>I read Bobs trick, and I don't have room for that. Does someone have a
>link and a source for what Im asking for?
Is this short enough?
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Connectors/Short_BNC_RA_1.jpg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Connectors/Short_BNC_RA_2.jpg
Bob . . .
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Grounding question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Glaeser, Dennis A" <dennis.glaeser@eds.com>
Bob,
I'm also using rear mounted batteries (RV-7A - electrically dependent
engine) and I found a diagram somewhere on your site that showed rear
mounted batteries with a note NOT to ground them locally to the airframe
- it showed a ground going to a forward mounted grounding point (forest
of tabs). So I'm curious: what circumstances would prompt this
recommendation?
2 questions to enhance my understanding:
- In this situation, are there any considerations required for single
heavy power wire running forward (i.e. things to avoid running along the
same path)? =20
- Are there any practical advantages to running a parallel ground as
well (which might balance the disadvantage of the added weight)?
Thanks,
Dennis Glaeser
Message 5
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| Subject: | Chapter 8 Update |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
Chapter 8 of the Connection has been updated with the
corrected temperature rise data in the figures. For a
limited time, folks on the List can download and print
a complete replacement for Chapter 8 at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/CH_8/Ch8_R12.pdf
Print odd pages only in reverse order, turn stack over
in printer and print even pages only to get fronts and
backs.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
Message 6
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 08:25 AM 5/26/2006 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)"
><mstewart@iss.net>
>
>Yes bob I believe that would work, albeit a little tougher to fabricate.
>Whats the square u tube made of?
Square brass tube stock. Probably the best thing to do is
assemble this for you. You need to use a connector with Teflon
insulation (see the plastic oozing from holes in the pix?).
If you tell me how long a coax you need, I can put the connector
on one end for you.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
Message 7
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| Subject: | Grounding question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 08:23 AM 5/26/2006 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)"
><mstewart@iss.net>
>
>In my case in my RV Super 8 with my Batt in the back, I grounded it
>locally & ran a 12ga to the front, from the battery, for grounding of
>all the 'stuff' to a single point. I have a perfectly quiet electrical
>system. For all practical purposes, only the starter & alternator, are
>using the airframe ground.
>Mike
Not a good deal. That long ground isn't really a ground. Please
consider using the single point ground block mounted on the firewall
as depicted in the Connection and making all cockpit and forward
accessory grounds at that point limiting your local airframe grounds
to the list cited in my posting of last night.
Bob . . .
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Grounding question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 09:02 AM 5/26/2006 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Glaeser, Dennis A"
><dennis.glaeser@eds.com>
>
>Bob,
>
>I'm also using rear mounted batteries (RV-7A - electrically dependent
>engine) and I found a diagram somewhere on your site that showed rear
>mounted batteries with a note NOT to ground them locally to the airframe
>- it showed a ground going to a forward mounted grounding point (forest
>of tabs). So I'm curious: what circumstances would prompt this
>recommendation?
The independent ground for battery minus leads is the electrically
elegant technique. If I were building an airplane, I'd probably run
the independent ground.
Local grounding for batteries and the list of items in last night's
posting poses no risks to those accessories because they are not
particularly large contributors as antagonists nor are they potential
victims.
>2 questions to enhance my understanding:
> - In this situation, are there any considerations required for single
>heavy power wire running forward (i.e. things to avoid running along the
>same path)?
What we're trying to avoid is having MULTIPLE grounds to an airframe
where heavy current accessories like landing lights, pitot heat, etc
SHARE the airframe with multiply grounded potential victims like
intercom and radios. It is 99.99% sufficient to pay attention to
single point grounding of potential victims while letting the airframe
go ahead and carry the ugly amps for devices which are not potential
victims.
> - Are there any practical advantages to running a parallel ground as
>well (which might balance the disadvantage of the added weight)?
Small and probably negligible as long as the victims remain "protected".
Bob . . .
Message 9
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| Subject: | Electrical grounding block |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Sam Marlow <sam.marlow@adelphia.net>
Anybody care to share whwer they purchased a grounding block?
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Grounding question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
>> In my case in my RV Super 8 with my Batt in the back, I grounded it
>> locally & ran a 12ga to the front, from the battery, for grounding of
>> all the 'stuff' to a single point. I have a perfectly quiet electrical
>> system. For all practical purposes, only the starter & alternator, are
>> using the airframe ground.
>> Mike
>
> Not a good deal. That long ground isn't really a ground. Please
> consider using the single point ground block mounted on the firewall
> as depicted in the Connection and making all cockpit and forward
> accessory grounds at that point limiting your local airframe grounds
> to the list cited in my posting of last night.
I'm confused. Why wouldn't Mike's 12ga wire extended to an
isolated forest of tabs be a ground?
I considered doing the same, but decided to ground the
forest of tabs to the front of the aircraft as well.
Here's how mine is set up:
http://www.rv8.ch/article.php?story=20060301215616213
I added the "fat" ground wire between the front forest
of tabs to the batteries in the back mainly to carry
starter currents a bit more efficiently. I was afraid
that if I didn't, something between where I ground
the engine and the battery would get welded together
when I cranked the starter.
BTW, the engine cranks fine, but I have no idea about
noise, since I don't yet have my radio installed.
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
do not archive
Message 11
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| Subject: | Electrical grounding block |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "George Neal E Capt HQ AU/XPRR" <Neal.George@MAXWELL.AF.MIL>
I made my own.
I cut chunks of brass sheet stock from a decorative door kickpanel.
The tab blocks came from SteinAir.
Neal
RV-7 N8ZG
Wiring
--> <sam.marlow@adelphia.net>
Anybody care to share whwer they purchased a grounding block?
Message 12
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| Subject: | Grounding question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" <mstewart@iss.net>
Everything goes to a single point ground block up front. That block is
isolated from the airframe and gets it ground supply from the 12ga
coming directly from the battery in the back.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 10:14 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Grounding question
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 08:23 AM 5/26/2006 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS
Atlanta)"
><mstewart@iss.net>
>
>In my case in my RV Super 8 with my Batt in the back, I grounded it
>locally & ran a 12ga to the front, from the battery, for grounding of
>all the 'stuff' to a single point. I have a perfectly quiet electrical
>system. For all practical purposes, only the starter & alternator, are
>using the airframe ground.
>Mike
Not a good deal. That long ground isn't really a ground. Please
consider using the single point ground block mounted on the firewall
as depicted in the Connection and making all cockpit and forward
accessory grounds at that point limiting your local airframe grounds
to the list cited in my posting of last night.
Bob . . .
Message 13
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" <mstewart@iss.net>
Thanks for the offer bob.
A friend said this thing, with the relief off, has what im looking for.
Im going after work today to see what it looks like.
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103434&tab=summar
y
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 10:11 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: 90 degree BNC
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 08:25 AM 5/26/2006 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS
Atlanta)"
><mstewart@iss.net>
>
>Yes bob I believe that would work, albeit a little tougher to
fabricate.
>Whats the square u tube made of?
Square brass tube stock. Probably the best thing to do is
assemble this for you. You need to use a connector with Teflon
insulation (see the plastic oozing from holes in the pix?).
If you tell me how long a coax you need, I can put the connector
on one end for you.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
Message 14
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| Subject: | A mechanical model of the electrical system (was: Grounding |
question)
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
On May 26, 2006, at 8:12 AM, Mickey Coggins wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-
> matronics@rv8.ch>
>
>>> In my case in my RV Super 8 with my Batt in the back, I grounded it
>>> locally & ran a 12ga to the front, from the battery, for
>>> grounding of
>>> all the 'stuff' to a single point. I have a perfectly quiet
>>> electrical
>>> system. For all practical purposes, only the starter &
>>> alternator, are
>>> using the airframe ground.
>>> Mike
>>
>> Not a good deal. That long ground isn't really a ground. Please
>> consider using the single point ground block mounted on the
>> firewall
>> as depicted in the Connection and making all cockpit and forward
>> accessory grounds at that point limiting your local airframe
>> grounds
>> to the list cited in my posting of last night.
>
> I'm confused. Why wouldn't Mike's 12ga wire extended to an
> isolated forest of tabs be a ground?
>
> I considered doing the same, but decided to ground the
> forest of tabs to the front of the aircraft as well.
I tend to be a visually-oriented person. I am going to try to paint a
mental picture for you that will let you see how all this stuff works
the way it does with the picture in my mind.
Since it is hard to visualize what electrons do when they flow
through a conductor I came up with a graphic physical representation
that models things pretty well. I think of wires and conductors as
stretchy things that go between the floor (ground) and the ceiling
(source of power or positive bus). The distance between the floor and
ceiling is the voltage. Think of a wire as a sort of bungee cord that
gets longer the harder you pull on it. The pull is current and how
far it stretches is the voltage drop. The amount of stretch for a
given current is the resistance. Fat wires don't stretch as much as
thin ones for a given pull (current). If you pull too hard on a
bungee it breaks (wire burns through).
If the wire "bungee" is connected to ground (the floor) the more I
pull on it (pass current through it) the more it stretches away from
the floor (ground potential) and it has some voltage above ground.
Likewise if I attach a wire to the ceiling (positive bus) the harder
I pull on it the more it stretches toward the floor. The end that is
attached to my load, e.g. light, radio, whatever, is below the level
(voltage) of the ceiling. How much it is below the level of the
ceiling (voltage drop) depends on the current draw and the thickness
of my wire.
So your airplane is a forest of these things stretching from floor
(ground) to ceiling (positive bus). Each wire is represented by a
bungee whose thickness is a function of wire thickness and each load
is a thinner bungee that stretches without breaking. In a perfect
world the load bungees would make it all the way from floor to
ceiling with no added distance but we have the wires which stretch a
little bit themselves so the stretch of our load isn't quite the full
distance.
I hope this is making sense so far and everyone can see the picture
in their minds.
Let's use this to model Mike's 12awg wire from ground to his isolated
forest of tabs. The 12awg wire is itself a bungee. One end is
attached to the floor and the other end has an eye bolt to which we
attach all the other "ground" bungees from all our loads. Each of our
loads adds more pull to our ground wire as it is attached. Our ground
wire "stretches" a little more each time another load is attached.
Now imagine we have a load that pulls and lets go (current increase
and decrease such as a flashing light) over and over. If we look at
our ground wire it will be bouncing up and down just a little bit as
the pull changes. This "bouncing" will be transmitted to all the
other ground wires and therefore to their loads. Everything will
start bouncing up and down in time with the load that is switching on
and off. The only way we can reduce the bouncing is to make the
ground wire fatter so it doesn't stretch as much when you pull on it.
This is why we use "fat" ground wires where we can. By the way, this
bouncing is current-induced noise in the ground.
Now to make the model a bit more realistic I am going to change our
"floor" and "ceiling" to be more realistic. Even the floor and
ceiling have some "stretch" and "bend" to them. Think of our ground
and positive buses as being like the cantilever spar of our wing and
anchored at one point each -- the positive and negative terminals of
our battery. As we attach our loads farther and farther out on our
buses (spars) there is more flex when we pull on them. Other loads
that we attach to the spar will also "feel" the flex of our buses as
we draw current from them.
I need to run and do some other stuff today but I will come back and
post again using this model to explain how varying current in one
place can be picked up as noise in a different place. I will also use
this model to explain the issues of using the airframe as our ground
bus and how a single-point ground will help eliminate noise.
OTOH the teacher invites others in the classroom to think about this
as homework and come back and explain how attaching things to our
ground "spar" (bus) can induce noise in our avionics if you don't use
a single point ground. ;-)
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Electrical grounding block |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Steer" <steerr@bellsouth.net>
B&C. Take a look at www.bandcspecialty.com.
Bill
Do not archive
> Anybody care to share whwer they purchased a grounding block?
Message 16
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| Subject: | Grounding Question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Larry E. James" <larry@ncproto.com>
Hi All,
I too have an aft-mounted battery and semi-crucial
starter requirement (high-compression pistons) and had
been assuming a dedicated ground wire of the same size
as the positive lead running forward. After thinking
about the posts on this; would it be reasonable to
locally ground the battery and run a smaller-sized
ground lead forward to a grounding-buss; with the
reasoning that the starter load would use both this
smaller ground lead and the airframe?? Or is this plain
obvious :-) How then would one size this ground lead??
If I had primed all (and bonded some) of my airframe
parts before riveting - would this approach be
not-a-good-idea??
--
Larry E. James
Bellevue, WA HR2
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by Up Time Technology, and is
believed to be clean.
Message 17
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| Subject: | Making those funny holes |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
There is plenty of information in the archives on drilling the holes for
toggle switches and their anti-rotation washers. I have two other items
going into my control panel that pose different problems. First my magneto
switch (like a toggle switch) has a channel machined along the threaded
shaft. But it was not supplied with a matching anti-rotation washer. The
diameter of the shaft is 7/8th of an inch. Second my power outlet (cigarette
lighter socket) needs a 1 1/8th inch hole but has flats on each side to keep
it from rotating. The flats are about 3/8th of an inch wide.
How do I cut the holes to match these parts?
-- Craig
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: ELT Antenna Placement |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com>
Reading TSO'ed instructions for different brands of ELT's
they all tell you basically the same thing, to mount antenna:
-Vertical
-Top of fuselage
-Externally mounted
-Near ELT transmitter
-ELT is far aft as possible w/ access
(if you read between the lines there are good reasons
for every point in the installation instructions. The ELT
manufacture, not the aircraft manufactures, researched
tons of data from accidents. For best survivability of
antenna and ELT follow the instructions.)
Here is a typical oh-oops:
http://img344.imageshack.us/img344/7985/eltant7cc.jpg
I marked possible locations for ELT antenna. Of course who
know what position or condition the plane will be after a crash,
but the ELT makers know after much study the most likely.
I never read an ELT installation instruction where it stated the
reason for the ELT antenna top location is protection by the
Vert stab as Bob suggest, but from the picture it makes sense.
I also read accident reports where the ELT's are ripped off mounts
in a crash. Some crashes are just not survivable for the ELT or
the people, however talking to ELT mafct they might know better
than anyone.
FACTORY installations of ELT antennas and ELT's are not a
model of best practice. Don't know about Beech Jets but
in at least two ELT instructions there are warnings not to
necessarily follow previous factory installations when replacing
an ELT. Some factory installations are terrible.
Of course the old debate is do experimental aircraft need to
follow the TSO'ed equipments TSO'ed installation instructions?
Leave the answer to you.
As was stated there is no TSO'ed approved CRASH, so who
knows. However it's fair to say if you do want to be found the
installation instruction that came with your ELT should be
followed
If you really want to be found, the new 406 Mhz will do that better
than the old 243. The search area ratio is:
450 sq miles (old 121.5/243 Mhz)
12.5 sq miles (new 121.5/406 Mhz)
1.5 mile radius (new w/gps 121.5/406 Mhz)
How long do you think 450 sq nm can be searched with a
121.5 direction finder when your antenna is smashed down
into the ground or hidden UNDER your vertical & horz stab?
Cheers George
>>posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
>>
>>Responding to post by
>>"Dan Beadle" <Dan.Beadle@hq.InclineSoftworks.com>
>>
>>I am building RV8. I am trying to figure out all the antenna
>>placements before closing up the wings.
>>
>>......skip.......* ELT - should be on top - maybe just ahead
>>of Vert Stab.....skip
>>
>>
>>Hello Dan, One of my friends commented that I had my
>>ELT antenna installed with improper orientation. I said "Fine,
>>tell me just exactly what attitude my fuselage will be in
>>when I am finished crashing and I will reinstall my antenna
>>accordingly." He smiled and got the point.
>>
>>What attitude will your fuselage be in when you finish
>>crashing?
>>
>>OC
>The reasoning behind placement of ELT antennas just forward
>of the vertical fin has nothing to do with final orientation of
>wreckage . . . and lots to do with using the vertical fin
>structure to protect the antenna as much as possible.
>The 121.5/406 MHz antennas on a Beechjet are mounted
>under a Fiberglas toe-cap at the base of the vertical fin. See:
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/temp/400A_ELT.jpg
>
>This is about as protected a location as one can devise . . .
>Bob . . .
__________________________________________________
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Making those funny holes |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dj Merrill <deej@deej.net>
Craig Payne wrote:
> Second my power outlet (cigarette
> lighter socket) needs a 1 1/8th inch hole but has flats on each side to keep
> it from rotating. The flats are about 3/8th of an inch wide.
>
I just cut a round hole for my cigarette lighter socket. It is
round - who cares
what orientation it is in? *grin*
Having said that, it has not turned in the 2 years it has been
installed and flying.
-Dj
do not archive
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV
Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118
http://econ.duke.edu/~deej/sportsman/
"Many things that are unexplainable happen during the construction of an
airplane." --Dave Prizio, 30 Aug 2005
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: A mechanical model of the electrical system (was: |
Grounding question)
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
> OTOH the teacher invites others in the classroom to think about this
> as homework and come back and explain how attaching things to our
> ground "spar" (bus) can induce noise in our avionics if you don't use
> a single point ground. ;-)
Great mental picture - it seems very clear. I believe I
understand how attaching things to different ground points
can induce noise, but I don't want to lock in my idea
until I find out if it is right. I often have trouble
forgetting things that I learn wrongly the first time.
I'll wait until the teacher has more time to finish
the explanation!
Thanks,
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
do not archive
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: ELT Antenna Placement |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
The instructions for my new Artex ME406 406 MHz ELT have additional
requirements:
"Locate the antenna at least 30 inches away from other antennas, wires,
vertical stabilizer, etc. to minimize distortion of the radiated field and
interference with other equipment. The antenna must be installed VERTICALLY
(within 15 of the vertical plane is acceptable). Artex has no performance
data for installations that deviate from the stated requirements."
(http://www.artex.net/documents/570-1600Rev-1.pdf)
This is almost impossible on my Zenith 601XL so I am doing the best I can.
-- Craig
Message 22
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| Subject: | Making those funny holes |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
>> It is round - who cares what orientation it is in? *grin*
Sadly mine is round but labeled, has a captive rubber cap and accepts a
optional locking plug which inserts in one orientation to lock. You twist it
to remove.
-- Craig
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Grounding question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "steveadams" <dr_steve_adams@yahoo.com>
Seems like everyone is talking in circles here. You can ground all your peripheral
stuff (battery, landing lights, strobes etc) locally to the airframe (if it's
not plastic), and use the common block on the firewall for your panel and
engine stuff. Vans recommends it, Bob recommends it, Zenith/Zenair recommends
it, and most certified small metal planes do it that way. You don't have to re-invent
the wheel, you won't make it any better, you might make it worse, and
you'll definitely add complexity to the system.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=36644#36644
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: ELT Antenna Placement |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder@sausen.net>
Of course if you would happen to need the ELT, make sure you crash in =
a way to meet all of those requirements. :-)
Michael Sausen
RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage
Do Not Archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com =
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig =
Payne
Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 1:01 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: ELT Antenna Placement
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Craig Payne"
--> <craig@craigandjean.com>
The instructions for my new Artex ME406 406 MHz ELT have additional
requirements:
"Locate the antenna at least 30 inches away from other antennas, wires, =
vertical stabilizer, etc. to minimize distortion of the radiated field =
and interference with other equipment. The antenna must be installed =
VERTICALLY (within 15 of the vertical plane is acceptable). Artex has no =
performance data for installations that deviate from the stated =
requirements."
(http://www.artex.net/documents/570-1600Rev-1.pdf)
This is almost impossible on my Zenith 601XL so I am doing the best I =
can.
-- Craig
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Making those funny holes |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: James H Nelson <rv9jim@juno.com>
Drill the smaller diameter and then get out the file and make it fit.
It the hard way but it works
Jim
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Making those funny holes |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland <larry@macsmachine.com>
Craig,
I've made special holes in a separate steel plate, filed to the lines
needed and clamped the plate in front and cut
a repeat copy of the holes where they were needed. Takes a little time,
but not that hard with a good set of small
files and drills.
Larry McFarland - 601HDS
do not archive
Craig Payne wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
>
>There is plenty of information in the archives on drilling the holes for
>toggle switches and their anti-rotation washers. I have two other items
>going into my control panel that pose different problems. First my magneto
>switch (like a toggle switch) has a channel machined along the threaded
>shaft. But it was not supplied with a matching anti-rotation washer. The
>diameter of the shaft is 7/8th of an inch. Second my power outlet (cigarette
>lighter socket) needs a 1 1/8th inch hole but has flats on each side to keep
>it from rotating. The flats are about 3/8th of an inch wide.
>
>How do I cut the holes to match these parts?
>
>-- Craig
>
>
>
Message 27
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| Subject: | Making those funny holes |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
>> not that hard with a good set of small files and drills
Given the small number that I have to make I guess that is what I will have
to do. I was just looking for a trick. Good idea to make a steel master
first. That reduces the chance of my screwing up the actual panel. For the
magneto switch I may isolate the problem by just making my own anti-rotation
washer, a scaled-up version of the ones that come with a toggle switch. The
same idea could be used with the power outlet.
-- Craig
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Making those funny holes |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" <mprather@spro.net>
Is the panel mounted in the plane? If not, how about waterjet?
Course, as someone else suggested, trace the shape of the cutout carfully,
drill a hole smaller than required, and then use files to open up the hole
to the tracing.
Regards,
Matt-
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Craig Payne"
> <craig@craigandjean.com>
>
> There is plenty of information in the archives on drilling the holes for
> toggle switches and their anti-rotation washers. I have two other items
> going into my control panel that pose different problems. First my
> magneto switch (like a toggle switch) has a channel machined along the
> threaded shaft. But it was not supplied with a matching anti-rotation
> washer. The diameter of the shaft is 7/8th of an inch. Second my power
> outlet (cigarette lighter socket) needs a 1 1/8th inch hole but has
> flats on each side to keep it from rotating. The flats are about 3/8th
> of an inch wide.
>
> How do I cut the holes to match these parts?
>
> -- Craig
>
>
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Electrical grounding block |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming" <lhelming@sigecom.net>
I bought mine from B&C electric. I bought one of each size. A small one
for the main buss, and large one for the ground, and the medium size for the
e-buss. I had to double up a few on the ground buss cause I ran every
ground back to the buss. Larry in Indiana
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Marlow" <sam.marlow@adelphia.net>
Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 9:34 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Electrical grounding block
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Sam Marlow
> <sam.marlow@adelphia.net>
>
> Anybody care to share whwer they purchased a grounding block?
>
>
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Making those funny holes |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jim Michael <jm@10squaredcorp.com>
Someone installed a VOR head in my Stinson before I bought it and it
looks like the cutout was done by a six year old. I'm guessing it was
done with a file. Perhaps there are talented file users out there,
but let me throw out this suggestion: create a template for the curve
you need and attach a guide to a high speed grinding tool with a fine
stone wheel. Similar to technique used with a router.
Cheers,
Jim
On Friday 26 May 2006 21:39, Matt Prather wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather"
> <mprather@spro.net>
>
> Is the panel mounted in the plane? If not, how about waterjet?
>
> Course, as someone else suggested, trace the shape of the cutout
> carfully, drill a hole smaller than required, and then use files to
> open up the hole to the tracing.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Matt-
>
> > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Craig Payne"
> > <craig@craigandjean.com>
> >
> > There is plenty of information in the archives on drilling the
> > holes for toggle switches and their anti-rotation washers. I have
> > two other items going into my control panel that pose different
> > problems. First my magneto switch (like a toggle switch) has a
> > channel machined along the threaded shaft. But it was not
> > supplied with a matching anti-rotation washer. The diameter of
> > the shaft is 7/8th of an inch. Second my power outlet (cigarette
> > lighter socket) needs a 1 1/8th inch hole but has flats on each
> > side to keep it from rotating. The flats are about 3/8th of an
> > inch wide.
> >
> > How do I cut the holes to match these parts?
> >
> > -- Craig
>
Message 31
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| Subject: | Century IV Schematics |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Peter Davidson" <pdavidson@familynet.net>
I was wondering if anyone on here has an install manual or the schematics
for a Century IV autopilot system.
Thanks
Peter D.
Message 32
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| Subject: | Z11 architecture question) |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <bakerocb@cox.net>
Responding to an AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: Brian Lloyd
<brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Hello Brian,
You wrote: "....skip.....I can get to my destination very comfortably if my
transponder quits so it is NOT an essential item.....skip..."
Not true if your destination is inside the Washington DC ADIZ.
You wrote: "...skip.... But most devices have on/off switches. Frankly, I
would probably go
ahead and attach my transponder and comm radio to the e-bus. I can
always turn them off to conserve necessary energy in the battery or
to stay within the capacity of my backup power source.....skip....."
Good solution.
OC
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Z11 architecture question) |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
On May 26, 2006, at 8:14 PM, <bakerocb@cox.net> <bakerocb@cox.net>
wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <bakerocb@cox.net>
>
> Responding to an AeroElectric-List message previously posted by:
> Brian Lloyd
> <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
>
> Hello Brian,
>
> You wrote: "....skip.....I can get to my destination very
> comfortably if my
> transponder quits so it is NOT an essential item.....skip..."
>
> Not true if your destination is inside the Washington DC ADIZ.
Perhaps not in that case, but that is about the only place.
OTOH, if you are on an IFR flight plan in IMC and you lose your
transponder and your comm, the regs say you should proceed to your
destination, hold, and then shoot the approach at your scheduled
arrival time. That rule hasn't changed so if your destination is in
the Washington, DC, ADIZ, the right answer is to proceed following
your flight plan, transponder or no transponder. Don't worry; they'll
keep an eye out for you.
>
> You wrote: "...skip.... But most devices have on/off switches.
> Frankly, I
> would probably go
> ahead and attach my transponder and comm radio to the e-bus. I can
> always turn them off to conserve necessary energy in the battery or
> to stay within the capacity of my backup power source.....skip....."
>
> Good solution.
But the point still stands. Many things that people think are
essential are really only just very desirable and not essential at
all. Case in point, I recently had a student who spent most of his
time chasing airspeed so I finally just covered up his airspeed
indicator and made him fly an entire lesson without any ASI. He
smoothed right out and started flying pitch and power. When I would
let him steal a look at the ASI he invariably found he was within 5
kts of his target airspeed. Most people think that the ASI is a
critical instrument and it really isn't (provided you know your
airplane). What else might fall into that category?
(I would much rather have AoA than ASI any day of the week.)
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
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