Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:27 AM - elt antenna (bob noffs)
2. 07:28 AM - Flag Terminals (Lapsley R & Sandra E. Caldwell)
3. 08:01 AM - Re: elt antenna (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 08:40 AM - Re: Flag Terminals (Gilles Thesee)
5. 11:52 AM - Re: ELT Antenna Placement ()
6. 12:32 PM - Re: elt antenna (Craig Payne)
7. 01:36 PM - Re: Re: ELT Antenna Placement (Brian Lloyd)
8. 01:39 PM - Re: elt antenna (Mickey Coggins)
9. 02:01 PM - Re: Re: ELT Antenna Placement (Gilles Thesee)
10. 02:12 PM - Re: Re: ELT Antenna Placement (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
11. 03:36 PM - Re: elt antenna (Craig Payne)
12. 04:10 PM - ELT fluff (Rodney Dunham)
13. 04:15 PM - Personalities (Rodney Dunham)
14. 04:54 PM - Load Meter Hall effect sensor (Mark Banus)
15. 06:56 PM - Re: Load Meter Hall effect sensor (Craig Payne)
16. 11:33 PM - Whining Radio (Greg Grigson)
17. 11:41 PM - Strategies for survival (Ed Holyoke)
Message 1
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "bob noffs" <icubob@newnorth.net>
hi all, this topic was recently discussed on another list. timely as i =
was installing my elt. a few facts came out of the discussion
1] elts fail to function in over 90% of accidents
2] no matter where you mount an elt you have no control how the =
airplane will come to rest in a crash...upside down, right side up, on =
its nose.
3] the best insurance for a quick recovery is filing a vfr flight plan =
if you can.
after the discussion i quit losing sleep about where to put my elt =
antenna.
bob noffs
Message 2
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Lapsley R & Sandra E. Caldwell" <caldwel@ictransnet.com>
Does anyone have experience with "Flag Terminals" (right angle fast-on
terminals)?
What tools do you use to crimp them, crimping instructions, reliability etc.
Roger
Message 3
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 08:11 AM 5/28/2006 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "bob noffs" <icubob@newnorth.net>
>
>hi all, this topic was recently discussed on another list. timely as i =
>was installing my elt. a few facts came out of the discussion
> 1] elts fail to function in over 90% of accidents
I read a piece some time ago . . . I think in AOPA Pilot.
The stats on ELT effectiveness were discussed. I'm think I'm
recalling that the data being studied was for all ELTs which
included a large population of the earliest 121.5, carrier
plus modulation suitable only for aural i.d. of a beacon.
The numbers were NOT encouraging.
It's true that the earliest systems were hampered by the
inability of a satellite system's rudimentary position
calculation system to get a location on the beacon.
It took multiple passes of satellites and some calculation
to get a rough idea of where to look for you. Read HOURS
ELT's are now available that report your GPS position
so that your location is known upon first detection of
the signal. The advantages of this feature are obvious.
If ANY ELT is installed, I'd use one with the GPS reporting
feature.
Even without the reporting feature, ELT locating hardware
and software is much more sophisticated. Your location
is likely to be deduced in minutes and with much greater
accuracy.
> 2] no matter where you mount an elt you have no control how the =
>airplane will come to rest in a crash...upside down, right side up, on =
>its nose.
True . . . but being upside down is not an automatic
turn-off of the ELT's ability to transmit. Remember,
we're talking line of sight transmission where very
small transmitters and relatively inefficient antennas
are able to cross the gap. It's more important that the
antenna and transmitter remain INTACT than to worry
about perfect positioning. This is why a location in
front of the vertical fin was chosen . . . for the
any benefits that the fin structure might offer in
keeping the antenna from being broken off.
> 3] the best insurance for a quick recovery is filing a vfr flight plan =
>if you can.
Every little bit helps. Having someone watch
to see if you arrive at the expected time and location
is yet another layer of risk mitigation . . . but simply
knowing that you're not at the appointed place at the
appointed time is a small piece of a huge puzzle.
Having a beacon broadcasting your location to the world
with a accuracy of a few meters is about the best risk
mitigator we have in the current tool box.
I would also carry a hand held and plenty of spare
batteries. In the US at least, there are dozens of
aircraft within your line of sight location at any
given time. If I ran the FAA, I'd allocate a second
emergency frequency, SEPARATE from 121.5 as a CRASHCOM
service. Alerts for missing aircraft could be put out
not unlike the Amber Alerts for missing children. If
any en route air transport category airplane within
150 miles of your location is listening, you'll be
able to talk to them from your hand-held. Having a hand
held GPS to back up your ELT's ability to report position
is a good thing to have too.
Bob . . .
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: Flag Terminals |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Lapsley R & Sandra E. Caldwell a crit :
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Lapsley R & Sandra E. Caldwell" <caldwel@ictransnet.com>
>
> Does anyone have experience with "Flag Terminals" (right angle fast-on
> terminals)?
>
> What tools do you use to crimp them, crimping instructions, reliability etc.
>
>
I've used some PIDG flag terminals in tight places. Same tool and
technique as with any PIDG terminal.
Regarding reliability, I got the impression that the portion between the
the crimp sleeve and the terminal itself, is rather thin and easily bent.
I'm not going to use them again.
Regards,
Gilles Thesee
Grenoble, France
http://contrails.free.fr
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: ELT Antenna Placement |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com>
Dear Bob:
To imply or suggest that an ELT is not important or complying
with installation instructions is of little consequence is not the
precise scientific well thought out response I've come to expect
out of you. The manufactures of ELT's provide instructions based
on facts and service (crash) history.
I partially agree with you, not to lose sleep and often the ELT
installation instructions can't be fully met on some small planes.
However to say:
*deviations..MOST have no major contribution to the outcome
of ANY crash/recovery scenario* is shooting from the hip.
MOST? ANY? Have proof? Data? Define, what is a deviation?
No offense, flying over Kansas or what ever flat state you're in,
is not like flying over wilderness in the Western half of the US,
Canada and Alaska, I am glad to have an ELT installed per
manufactures recommendations.
ELT manufactures might know something, you think Bob?
My suggestion is try to comply as much as possible. I know if
you call the manufacture they can provide guidance solution
(compromise). It will be more than it does not matter.
Please don't make this about you being right and me wrong.
This is about learning. A cavalier attitude is not appropriate to
the topic. Bob, you pride yourself in your facts and repeatable
experiments. I say the 1000's of crashes that the manufacture
and FAA have studied in developing the guidelines have merit,
period. If you have specifics than please say, but the general
dismissal of ELT manufactures recommendation as found
wishes is condescending.
Bob you often have FONDEST WISHES for your ideas and
concepts, you claim are based on irrefutable logic and
experiments. I think you should give other professionals in
the aerospace industry the same professional courtesy and
respect for their expertise.
Cheers George ATP/CFII-MEI, B73/75/767
>posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
>. . , which is all anyone can. Virtually every manufacturer cites
>their fondest wishes in the installation manual that virtually
>never work out in real life.
>
>Generally, effects of 'deviations' require laboratory grade
>instruments to detect and quantify . . . and most have no
>major contribution to the outcome of any given crash/recovery
>scenario.
>Bob . . .
__________________________________________________
Message 6
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
As best I can tell feeding GPS coordinates into the new generation of ELTs
is a *very* expensive proposition - at least when sticking to Artex's
products. First you have to switch from their "cheap" model ME406 to the
G406 to get a unit which accepts GPS coordinates ($1456 vs. $839). Then you
have to buy their Nav/ELT interface box (455-6500), about $1358). And (from
what I can make out from the specs) the interface box only accepts serial
data in the form sent by expensive in-panel GPS receivers, not the NMEA 0183
format from cheap portable units.
The alternative is to buy a Personal Locator Beacon like the McMurdo
Fastfind. The model with a GPS built-in costs $573. But a PLB is manually
triggered, not by a G sensor. So it doesn't do any good if you are
unconscious. I live in the mountainous west where there are lots of out of
the way places to crash. I guess I can rationalize buying a PLB by saying
that if I remain unconscious too long to activate the PLB then I'll probably
be dead by the time I am rescued. The PLB would just get me found faster
after a crash where I am in relatively good shape.
-- Craig
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: ELT Antenna Placement |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
On May 28, 2006, at 11:43 AM, <gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com>
<gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com> wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com>
>
> Dear Bob:
>
> To imply or suggest that an ELT is not important or complying
> with installation instructions is of little consequence is not the
> precise scientific well thought out response I've come to expect
> out of you. The manufactures of ELT's provide instructions based
> on facts and service (crash) history.
>
> I partially agree with you, not to lose sleep and often the ELT
> installation instructions can't be fully met on some small planes.
>
> However to say:
>
> *deviations..MOST have no major contribution to the outcome
> of ANY crash/recovery scenario* is shooting from the hip.
George,
The ELT is a waste of time and money. They have 97% false positives
and who knows how many false negatives. Precious few have been saved
by an ELT but a lot of people have gone on wild goose chases because
of 'em.
So, based on those facts, the placement and installation of your ELT
is going to have very little effect on its actual usefulness since it
is basically useless from the get-go. Since we are bound by law to
install these useless things in our airplanes at least we have the
option of putting them where they will be the least intrusive.
As others have stated, telling someone where you are going, what
route you are taking, and when you are going to get there is much
more effective in case of an accident than is an ELT.
And last but not least, dumping on Bob for stating the obvious is
pretty useless too.
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
Message 8
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
> ... But a PLB is manually
> triggered, not by a G sensor. So it doesn't do any good if you are
> unconscious. ...
Couldn't you activate the PLB before you hit the ground, and hope it
survives the impact?
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
do not archive
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: ELT Antenna Placement |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
> The ELT is a waste of time and money. They have 97% false positives
> and who knows how many false negatives. Precious few have been saved
> by an ELT but a lot of people have gone on wild goose chases because
> of 'em.
>
>
I have personnaly witnessed more than a dozen such wild goose chases for
ELT gone wild while sitting on the ramp.
About a decade ago, two friends took a plane in our flying club, for a
40 minute flight to Annecy in the French Alps. They never returned.
We spent more than a week searching the whole area, by air and on the
ground.
Finally a rambler found the wreck just two miles South of the airfield,
6000 ft high in the mountains. When the rescue helicopter landed near
what remained of the airplane, they heard the ELT transmitting : the
battery was still in good shape after 8 days, but the certified factory
installed antenna radiated only only a few yards away.
At least one of them had survived the crash, and died of exposure...
Had the antenna worked as expected, they would have been found within
hours after being overdue.
As homebuilts are not subject to ELT obligations in may area, I have the
impression that a cellphone provides much more accurate positioning
information, and for free.
Regards,
Gilles Thesee
Grenoble, France
http://contrails.free.fr
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: ELT Antenna Placement |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder@sausen.net>
May be next to useless but only an idiot would take dead over 3% chance.
My short $0.02 on this mostly useless thread tangant.
Michael Sausen
And do not archive this whole thread. (wish that worked)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com =
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian =
Lloyd
Sent: Sunday, May 28, 2006 3:29 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: ELT Antenna Placement
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd
--> <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
On May 28, 2006, at 11:43 AM, <gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com> =
<gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com> wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com>
>
> Dear Bob:
>
> To imply or suggest that an ELT is not important or complying with
> installation instructions is of little consequence is not the precise
> scientific well thought out response I've come to expect out of you.
> The manufactures of ELT's provide instructions based on facts and
> service (crash) history.
>
> I partially agree with you, not to lose sleep and often the ELT
> installation instructions can't be fully met on some small planes.
>
> However to say:
>
> *deviations..MOST have no major contribution to the outcome of ANY
> crash/recovery scenario* is shooting from the hip.
George,
The ELT is a waste of time and money. They have 97% false positives and =
who knows how many false negatives. Precious few have been saved by an =
ELT but a lot of people have gone on wild goose chases because of 'em.
So, based on those facts, the placement and installation of your ELT is =
going to have very little effect on its actual usefulness since it is =
basically useless from the get-go. Since we are bound by law to install =
these useless things in our airplanes at least we have the option of =
putting them where they will be the least intrusive.
As others have stated, telling someone where you are going, what route =
you are taking, and when you are going to get there is much more =
effective in case of an accident than is an ELT.
And last but not least, dumping on Bob for stating the obvious is pretty =
useless too.
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Message 11
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
I suppose I could but I'd be concentrating on flying the plane gracefully
into the ground :-)
These are hand-held units so I guess you would also want to toss it clear of
the plane. Also they are designed to be hard to (accidentally) trigger.
Maybe I'll install a ballistic recovery chute or move to someplace flat like
Kansas.
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mickey
Coggins
Sent: Sunday, May 28, 2006 2:35 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: elt antenna
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins
--> <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
> ... But a PLB is manually
> triggered, not by a G sensor. So it doesn't do any good if you are
> unconscious. ...
Couldn't you activate the PLB before you hit the ground, and hope it
survives the impact?
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
do not archive
Message 12
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rodney Dunham" <rdunhamtn@hotmail.com>
Craig,
Just turn the UHF PLB on as soon as you realize your heading for the scene
of the crash! Then transmit your "May Day's" on 121.5 so gmcjetpilot can
call it in!
That way, if you survive, you may get a chopper ride to the local trauma
center before you cash it in. And, if you don't survive, they'll know where
the bears will be feasting. On that note... Maybe we should be packing a
high caliber pistol with Teflon coated bullets. I've heard the regular
bullets don't penetrate bear hides.
Anyway, I think you've convinced me to opt for the PLB with GPS and a 40
caliber with Teflon bullets :o)
Rodney
do not archive
Message 13
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rodney Dunham" <rdunhamtn@hotmail.com>
George,
I like the George that posts really neat links to educational sites so's I
can learn more about alternators and other things electronical. I don't so
much like this guy that indulges in personal attacks against my buddy Bob.
Rod
do not archive
Message 14
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Subject: | Load Meter Hall effect sensor |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark Banus" <mbanus@hotmail.com>
Bob,=20
When you were at the Chesapeake VA seminar you mentioned that a Hall =
effect sensor could be used with your load meter in stead of the shunt. =
What hall effect sensor do you recommend?=20
Thanks
Mark Banus
Message 15
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Subject: | Load Meter Hall effect sensor |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com>
I'm using a Honeywell CSLA1CE. I believe both Blue Mountain Avionics and
Advanced Flight Systems use a part from the same family.
http://www.honeywell-sensor.com.cn/prodinfo/sensor_current/catalog/c20058.pd
f
Or as a Tiny URL:
http://tinyurl.com/pfkz8
-- Craig
Message 16
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Greg Grigson <iflyhawaii2@yahoo.com>
I'm chasing down a new noise in the headset on my 60 hour RV-6A with the Z-11
architecture. The whine starts when I turn the radio on and will go off when
the alternator switch is turned off (or, of course, if the radio goes off), and
is RPM dependent.
The noise is not load dependent, i.e. after the battery is topped off ( I have
an ammeter) the whine is still the same intensity. The funny thing is that
after an hour flight the noise intensity is much less (maybe only 1/3 the level)
than the first 10-20 of flight. Is the alternator is now "warmed up" and
producing less noise?
I'm thinking the source is the alternator (#$%&* Van's special) and the victim
is the radio, but how and where is the RF leaking and absorbing?
More Info:
B & C linear regular inside the cockpit.
All fat wire seperated from skinny wires.
Recently did some work on the brake hoses and could have bumped a wire.
On day one of this machine I did have a very mild whine on the intecomm that went
away with battery top off. (new noise is not affected by intercomm settings.)
Should I be thinking about wire routings, loose connections, grounds first?
Then check the power wire from a clean source?
Please help.
Dumfounded in Honolulu.
Greg
---------------------------------
Message 17
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Subject: | Strategies for survival |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ed Holyoke" <bicyclop@pacbell.net>
Talking to center for flight following is even better. You've got
somebody who knows your N number and position (on their radar) and to
whom you can tell you've got a problem before you make that forced
landing.
Don't count on your cell phone working in the middle of nowhere, by the
way. A handheld radio is a much better bet. You can catch a passing
airliner with it. Remember that frequency on which you were talking to
center? Many of them monitor the guard frequency also. 121.5
Pax,
Ed Holyoke
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd
<brian-yak@lloyd.com>
>As others have stated, telling someone where you are going, what
route you are taking, and when you are going to get there is much
more effective in case of an accident than is an ELT.
And last but not least, dumping on Bob for stating the obvious is
pretty useless too.
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
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