---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 05/28/06: 17 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:27 AM - elt antenna (bob noffs) 2. 07:28 AM - Flag Terminals (Lapsley R & Sandra E. Caldwell) 3. 08:01 AM - Re: elt antenna (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 08:40 AM - Re: Flag Terminals (Gilles Thesee) 5. 11:52 AM - Re: ELT Antenna Placement () 6. 12:32 PM - Re: elt antenna (Craig Payne) 7. 01:36 PM - Re: Re: ELT Antenna Placement (Brian Lloyd) 8. 01:39 PM - Re: elt antenna (Mickey Coggins) 9. 02:01 PM - Re: Re: ELT Antenna Placement (Gilles Thesee) 10. 02:12 PM - Re: Re: ELT Antenna Placement (RV Builder (Michael Sausen)) 11. 03:36 PM - Re: elt antenna (Craig Payne) 12. 04:10 PM - ELT fluff (Rodney Dunham) 13. 04:15 PM - Personalities (Rodney Dunham) 14. 04:54 PM - Load Meter Hall effect sensor (Mark Banus) 15. 06:56 PM - Re: Load Meter Hall effect sensor (Craig Payne) 16. 11:33 PM - Whining Radio (Greg Grigson) 17. 11:41 PM - Strategies for survival (Ed Holyoke) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:27:43 AM PST US From: "bob noffs" Subject: AeroElectric-List: elt antenna --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "bob noffs" hi all, this topic was recently discussed on another list. timely as i = was installing my elt. a few facts came out of the discussion 1] elts fail to function in over 90% of accidents 2] no matter where you mount an elt you have no control how the = airplane will come to rest in a crash...upside down, right side up, on = its nose. 3] the best insurance for a quick recovery is filing a vfr flight plan = if you can. after the discussion i quit losing sleep about where to put my elt = antenna. bob noffs ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:28:44 AM PST US From: "Lapsley R & Sandra E. Caldwell" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Flag Terminals --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Lapsley R & Sandra E. Caldwell" Does anyone have experience with "Flag Terminals" (right angle fast-on terminals)? What tools do you use to crimp them, crimping instructions, reliability etc. Roger ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:01:28 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: elt antenna --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 08:11 AM 5/28/2006 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "bob noffs" > >hi all, this topic was recently discussed on another list. timely as i = >was installing my elt. a few facts came out of the discussion > 1] elts fail to function in over 90% of accidents I read a piece some time ago . . . I think in AOPA Pilot. The stats on ELT effectiveness were discussed. I'm think I'm recalling that the data being studied was for all ELTs which included a large population of the earliest 121.5, carrier plus modulation suitable only for aural i.d. of a beacon. The numbers were NOT encouraging. It's true that the earliest systems were hampered by the inability of a satellite system's rudimentary position calculation system to get a location on the beacon. It took multiple passes of satellites and some calculation to get a rough idea of where to look for you. Read HOURS ELT's are now available that report your GPS position so that your location is known upon first detection of the signal. The advantages of this feature are obvious. If ANY ELT is installed, I'd use one with the GPS reporting feature. Even without the reporting feature, ELT locating hardware and software is much more sophisticated. Your location is likely to be deduced in minutes and with much greater accuracy. > 2] no matter where you mount an elt you have no control how the = >airplane will come to rest in a crash...upside down, right side up, on = >its nose. True . . . but being upside down is not an automatic turn-off of the ELT's ability to transmit. Remember, we're talking line of sight transmission where very small transmitters and relatively inefficient antennas are able to cross the gap. It's more important that the antenna and transmitter remain INTACT than to worry about perfect positioning. This is why a location in front of the vertical fin was chosen . . . for the any benefits that the fin structure might offer in keeping the antenna from being broken off. > 3] the best insurance for a quick recovery is filing a vfr flight plan = >if you can. Every little bit helps. Having someone watch to see if you arrive at the expected time and location is yet another layer of risk mitigation . . . but simply knowing that you're not at the appointed place at the appointed time is a small piece of a huge puzzle. Having a beacon broadcasting your location to the world with a accuracy of a few meters is about the best risk mitigator we have in the current tool box. I would also carry a hand held and plenty of spare batteries. In the US at least, there are dozens of aircraft within your line of sight location at any given time. If I ran the FAA, I'd allocate a second emergency frequency, SEPARATE from 121.5 as a CRASHCOM service. Alerts for missing aircraft could be put out not unlike the Amber Alerts for missing children. If any en route air transport category airplane within 150 miles of your location is listening, you'll be able to talk to them from your hand-held. Having a hand held GPS to back up your ELT's ability to report position is a good thing to have too. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:40:36 AM PST US From: Gilles Thesee Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Flag Terminals --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee Lapsley R & Sandra E. Caldwell a crit : > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Lapsley R & Sandra E. Caldwell" > > Does anyone have experience with "Flag Terminals" (right angle fast-on > terminals)? > > What tools do you use to crimp them, crimping instructions, reliability etc. > > I've used some PIDG flag terminals in tight places. Same tool and technique as with any PIDG terminal. Regarding reliability, I got the impression that the portion between the the crimp sleeve and the terminal itself, is rather thin and easily bent. I'm not going to use them again. Regards, Gilles Thesee Grenoble, France http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:52:26 AM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: ELT Antenna Placement --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dear Bob: To imply or suggest that an ELT is not important or complying with installation instructions is of little consequence is not the precise scientific well thought out response I've come to expect out of you. The manufactures of ELT's provide instructions based on facts and service (crash) history. I partially agree with you, not to lose sleep and often the ELT installation instructions can't be fully met on some small planes. However to say: *deviations..MOST have no major contribution to the outcome of ANY crash/recovery scenario* is shooting from the hip. MOST? ANY? Have proof? Data? Define, what is a deviation? No offense, flying over Kansas or what ever flat state you're in, is not like flying over wilderness in the Western half of the US, Canada and Alaska, I am glad to have an ELT installed per manufactures recommendations. ELT manufactures might know something, you think Bob? My suggestion is try to comply as much as possible. I know if you call the manufacture they can provide guidance solution (compromise). It will be more than it does not matter. Please don't make this about you being right and me wrong. This is about learning. A cavalier attitude is not appropriate to the topic. Bob, you pride yourself in your facts and repeatable experiments. I say the 1000's of crashes that the manufacture and FAA have studied in developing the guidelines have merit, period. If you have specifics than please say, but the general dismissal of ELT manufactures recommendation as found wishes is condescending. Bob you often have FONDEST WISHES for your ideas and concepts, you claim are based on irrefutable logic and experiments. I think you should give other professionals in the aerospace industry the same professional courtesy and respect for their expertise. Cheers George ATP/CFII-MEI, B73/75/767 >posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" >. . , which is all anyone can. Virtually every manufacturer cites >their fondest wishes in the installation manual that virtually >never work out in real life. > >Generally, effects of 'deviations' require laboratory grade >instruments to detect and quantify . . . and most have no >major contribution to the outcome of any given crash/recovery >scenario. >Bob . . . __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:32:46 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: elt antenna --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" As best I can tell feeding GPS coordinates into the new generation of ELTs is a *very* expensive proposition - at least when sticking to Artex's products. First you have to switch from their "cheap" model ME406 to the G406 to get a unit which accepts GPS coordinates ($1456 vs. $839). Then you have to buy their Nav/ELT interface box (455-6500), about $1358). And (from what I can make out from the specs) the interface box only accepts serial data in the form sent by expensive in-panel GPS receivers, not the NMEA 0183 format from cheap portable units. The alternative is to buy a Personal Locator Beacon like the McMurdo Fastfind. The model with a GPS built-in costs $573. But a PLB is manually triggered, not by a G sensor. So it doesn't do any good if you are unconscious. I live in the mountainous west where there are lots of out of the way places to crash. I guess I can rationalize buying a PLB by saying that if I remain unconscious too long to activate the PLB then I'll probably be dead by the time I am rescued. The PLB would just get me found faster after a crash where I am in relatively good shape. -- Craig ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:36:14 PM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: ELT Antenna Placement --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd On May 28, 2006, at 11:43 AM, wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: > > Dear Bob: > > To imply or suggest that an ELT is not important or complying > with installation instructions is of little consequence is not the > precise scientific well thought out response I've come to expect > out of you. The manufactures of ELT's provide instructions based > on facts and service (crash) history. > > I partially agree with you, not to lose sleep and often the ELT > installation instructions can't be fully met on some small planes. > > However to say: > > *deviations..MOST have no major contribution to the outcome > of ANY crash/recovery scenario* is shooting from the hip. George, The ELT is a waste of time and money. They have 97% false positives and who knows how many false negatives. Precious few have been saved by an ELT but a lot of people have gone on wild goose chases because of 'em. So, based on those facts, the placement and installation of your ELT is going to have very little effect on its actual usefulness since it is basically useless from the get-go. Since we are bound by law to install these useless things in our airplanes at least we have the option of putting them where they will be the least intrusive. As others have stated, telling someone where you are going, what route you are taking, and when you are going to get there is much more effective in case of an accident than is an ELT. And last but not least, dumping on Bob for stating the obvious is pretty useless too. Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630 +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . Antoine de Saint-Exupry ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:39:52 PM PST US From: Mickey Coggins Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: elt antenna --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins > ... But a PLB is manually > triggered, not by a G sensor. So it doesn't do any good if you are > unconscious. ... Couldn't you activate the PLB before you hit the ground, and hope it survives the impact? -- Mickey Coggins http://www.rv8.ch/ #82007 finishing do not archive ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:01:27 PM PST US From: Gilles Thesee Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: ELT Antenna Placement --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee > The ELT is a waste of time and money. They have 97% false positives > and who knows how many false negatives. Precious few have been saved > by an ELT but a lot of people have gone on wild goose chases because > of 'em. > > I have personnaly witnessed more than a dozen such wild goose chases for ELT gone wild while sitting on the ramp. About a decade ago, two friends took a plane in our flying club, for a 40 minute flight to Annecy in the French Alps. They never returned. We spent more than a week searching the whole area, by air and on the ground. Finally a rambler found the wreck just two miles South of the airfield, 6000 ft high in the mountains. When the rescue helicopter landed near what remained of the airplane, they heard the ELT transmitting : the battery was still in good shape after 8 days, but the certified factory installed antenna radiated only only a few yards away. At least one of them had survived the crash, and died of exposure... Had the antenna worked as expected, they would have been found within hours after being overdue. As homebuilts are not subject to ELT obligations in may area, I have the impression that a cellphone provides much more accurate positioning information, and for free. Regards, Gilles Thesee Grenoble, France http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:12:51 PM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: ELT Antenna Placement From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" May be next to useless but only an idiot would take dead over 3% chance. My short $0.02 on this mostly useless thread tangant. Michael Sausen And do not archive this whole thread. (wish that worked) -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com = [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian = Lloyd Sent: Sunday, May 28, 2006 3:29 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: ELT Antenna Placement --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd --> On May 28, 2006, at 11:43 AM, = wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: > > Dear Bob: > > To imply or suggest that an ELT is not important or complying with > installation instructions is of little consequence is not the precise > scientific well thought out response I've come to expect out of you. > The manufactures of ELT's provide instructions based on facts and > service (crash) history. > > I partially agree with you, not to lose sleep and often the ELT > installation instructions can't be fully met on some small planes. > > However to say: > > *deviations..MOST have no major contribution to the outcome of ANY > crash/recovery scenario* is shooting from the hip. George, The ELT is a waste of time and money. They have 97% false positives and = who knows how many false negatives. Precious few have been saved by an = ELT but a lot of people have gone on wild goose chases because of 'em. So, based on those facts, the placement and installation of your ELT is = going to have very little effect on its actual usefulness since it is = basically useless from the get-go. Since we are bound by law to install = these useless things in our airplanes at least we have the option of = putting them where they will be the least intrusive. As others have stated, telling someone where you are going, what route = you are taking, and when you are going to get there is much more = effective in case of an accident than is an ELT. And last but not least, dumping on Bob for stating the obvious is pretty = useless too. Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630 +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . Antoine de Saint-Exupry =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:36:42 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: elt antenna --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" I suppose I could but I'd be concentrating on flying the plane gracefully into the ground :-) These are hand-held units so I guess you would also want to toss it clear of the plane. Also they are designed to be hard to (accidentally) trigger. Maybe I'll install a ballistic recovery chute or move to someplace flat like Kansas. -- Craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mickey Coggins Sent: Sunday, May 28, 2006 2:35 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: elt antenna --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins --> > ... But a PLB is manually > triggered, not by a G sensor. So it doesn't do any good if you are > unconscious. ... Couldn't you activate the PLB before you hit the ground, and hope it survives the impact? -- Mickey Coggins http://www.rv8.ch/ #82007 finishing do not archive ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:10:22 PM PST US From: "Rodney Dunham" Subject: AeroElectric-List: ELT fluff --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rodney Dunham" Craig, Just turn the UHF PLB on as soon as you realize your heading for the scene of the crash! Then transmit your "May Day's" on 121.5 so gmcjetpilot can call it in! That way, if you survive, you may get a chopper ride to the local trauma center before you cash it in. And, if you don't survive, they'll know where the bears will be feasting. On that note... Maybe we should be packing a high caliber pistol with Teflon coated bullets. I've heard the regular bullets don't penetrate bear hides. Anyway, I think you've convinced me to opt for the PLB with GPS and a 40 caliber with Teflon bullets :o) Rodney do not archive ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 04:15:52 PM PST US From: "Rodney Dunham" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Personalities --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rodney Dunham" George, I like the George that posts really neat links to educational sites so's I can learn more about alternators and other things electronical. I don't so much like this guy that indulges in personal attacks against my buddy Bob. Rod do not archive ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 04:54:59 PM PST US From: "Mark Banus" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Load Meter Hall effect sensor --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark Banus" Bob,=20 When you were at the Chesapeake VA seminar you mentioned that a Hall = effect sensor could be used with your load meter in stead of the shunt. = What hall effect sensor do you recommend?=20 Thanks Mark Banus ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:56:15 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Load Meter Hall effect sensor --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Craig Payne" I'm using a Honeywell CSLA1CE. I believe both Blue Mountain Avionics and Advanced Flight Systems use a part from the same family. http://www.honeywell-sensor.com.cn/prodinfo/sensor_current/catalog/c20058.pd f Or as a Tiny URL: http://tinyurl.com/pfkz8 -- Craig ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:33:01 PM PST US From: Greg Grigson Subject: AeroElectric-List: Whining Radio --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Greg Grigson I'm chasing down a new noise in the headset on my 60 hour RV-6A with the Z-11 architecture. The whine starts when I turn the radio on and will go off when the alternator switch is turned off (or, of course, if the radio goes off), and is RPM dependent. The noise is not load dependent, i.e. after the battery is topped off ( I have an ammeter) the whine is still the same intensity. The funny thing is that after an hour flight the noise intensity is much less (maybe only 1/3 the level) than the first 10-20 of flight. Is the alternator is now "warmed up" and producing less noise? I'm thinking the source is the alternator (#$%&* Van's special) and the victim is the radio, but how and where is the RF leaking and absorbing? More Info: B & C linear regular inside the cockpit. All fat wire seperated from skinny wires. Recently did some work on the brake hoses and could have bumped a wire. On day one of this machine I did have a very mild whine on the intecomm that went away with battery top off. (new noise is not affected by intercomm settings.) Should I be thinking about wire routings, loose connections, grounds first? Then check the power wire from a clean source? Please help. Dumfounded in Honolulu. Greg --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:41:06 PM PST US From: "Ed Holyoke" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Strategies for survival --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ed Holyoke" Talking to center for flight following is even better. You've got somebody who knows your N number and position (on their radar) and to whom you can tell you've got a problem before you make that forced landing. Don't count on your cell phone working in the middle of nowhere, by the way. A handheld radio is a much better bet. You can catch a passing airliner with it. Remember that frequency on which you were talking to center? Many of them monitor the guard frequency also. 121.5 Pax, Ed Holyoke --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd >As others have stated, telling someone where you are going, what route you are taking, and when you are going to get there is much more effective in case of an accident than is an ELT. And last but not least, dumping on Bob for stating the obvious is pretty useless too. Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630 +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . Antoine de Saint-Exupry