AeroElectric-List Digest Archive

Sat 06/17/06


Total Messages Posted: 12



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 06:51 AM - Low voltage warning light (Gary Casey)
     2. 06:54 AM - Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 06/16/06 (Fergus Kyle)
     3. 10:32 AM - Re: Re: IFR Requirements (required vs. good to have) (Mike)
     4. 11:39 AM - IFR Requirements (required vs. good to have) (Mickey Coggins)
     5. 03:31 PM - Re: IFR Requirements (Jerry Grimmonpre)
     6. 04:36 PM - Re: RV7A Tip Up Canopy Latch Mod....Plus IFR continued (Frank Stringham)
     7. 04:52 PM - Re: Low voltage warning light (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     8. 04:52 PM - Re: VOLTAGE FLUCTUATION (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     9. 05:57 PM - Re: IFR Requirements (BobsV35B@aol.com)
    10. 07:27 PM - Re: Generator/regulator test (Ray Cole)
    11. 08:25 PM - Re: Low voltage warning light (John Schroeder)
    12. 08:58 PM - Re: IFR Requirements (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 06:51:57 AM PST US
    From: Gary Casey <glcasey@adelphia.net>
    Subject: Low voltage warning light
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gary Casey <glcasey@adelphia.net> On my B&C voltage regulator I get a dim low-voltage warning for a while after starting. The voltmeter shows that the alternator is charging and regulating normally and eventually (after 10 minutes) the light goes away. The light is an LED and I have the recommended bypass resistor installed. I assume I should possibly go to a lower value resistor? Gary Casey


    Message 2


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    Time: 06:54:56 AM PST US
    From: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
    Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 06/16/06
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca> | From: "Scott Auchinleck, Emergi-Tech" <scott@emergi-tech.qc.ca> | Subject: AeroElectric-List: Westinghouse Alternator B-52? | | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Scott Auchinleck, Emergi-Tech" <scott@emergi-tech.qc.ca> | | Hello, | | I have recently acquired a Westinghouse alternator (possibly from a | B-52?). The specs are below. Does anyone have any information on | this unit (parts diag, service manual, etc). Was it mean to be run | with a regulator, or at a constant speed= constant voltage setup? I | plan to use it as part of a generator project, so I'm wondering how | to set it up (since I don't own a B-52....) | | Thanks, | | Scott | | AF SPEC- 32530=D | MFR'S SERIAL NO. AW-131 | Volts- 120 | KVA- 8 | PH- 1 | RPM 3800-10000 | MFR'S PART NO.- A-24-A9370 | | Scott Auchinleck Scott, If I remember correctly the DC9 (MD-XX, B-919 etc) as did several others, had a 'Ground Service buss' which was designed to permit ordinary household vacuum cleaners to be plugged in to clean the aircraft on stop-overs. This had a fairly robust alternator as a dedicated source with an on-ground relay to prevent inflight use. This may be it......... Ferg Europa Classic 914 PS: Any relation to the "Auch" of North African fame?


    Message 3


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    Time: 10:32:25 AM PST US
    From: "Mike" <mlas@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: IFR Requirements (required vs. good to have)
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen To this subject: I am an airline guy, current experimental homebuilder, current tail wheel guy, current import military jet guy, and current in gliders right now! I have three things to say about this discussion: An ATP rating makes not an airline pilot! Like any other profession, airline pilots are not perfect and they don=92t know everything! Most (not all) people are killed in airplanes because of a lack of training or poor decision making Period! (my opinions based on with 25 Active years of flying everything and I=92m only 43 years young.) It doesn=92t matter if it has one engine or two engines, if you don=92t meet the ground in a level attitude with a manageable sink rate you are probably going to die and it doesn=92t matter if the engine is running or not. If your really interested in aircraft safety and crash survivability read the accident reports. I think you=92ll find that most fatal accidents hit the ground out of control. Remember your early instruction, if you lose the engine and have to land in a stand of trees land between two solid objects. The key to that statement is the word Land. Mike Larkin Lancair Legacy TS-11 Iskra Kitfox Airbus -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 7:28 PM to have) You maybe an airline guy, but you don't read the stats too closely. Multi-engine GA flights have just as many fatals as singles, and more from mechanicals. Simple arithmetic...more than two times as many devices to fail, more complacency on maintenance because there are two, and more difficult to fly on one than the single on none. Been much studied over the years, and there simply is no statistical evidence that a twin is safer. KM HYPERLINK "mailto:gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com"gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com wrote: Bruce I am an airline guy and two things. Don't get a little GA plane's mixed up with a large turbojet air transport category aircraft. All the standby instruments in the world will not help when the the single engine stops or the crankshaft cracks and the prop falls off. Single engine, single pilot IFR is a little risky anyway. George ATP/CFII >From: "Bruce Gray" <HYPERLINK "mailto:Bruce@glasair.org"Bruce@glasair.org> > >OK, I've been in enough pissing contests on this subject that I don't >wantanother ========================= http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List ========================= ========================= http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========================= =========== -- --


    Message 4


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    Time: 11:39:50 AM PST US
    From: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
    Subject: IFR Requirements (required vs. good to have)
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch> > It doesn't matter if it has one engine or two engines, if you don't meet > the ground in a level attitude with a manageable sink rate you are > probably going to die and it doesn't matter if the engine is running or > not. If your really interested in aircraft safety and crash > survivability read the accident reports. I think you'll find that most > fatal accidents hit the ground out of control. Remember your early > instruction, if you lose the engine and have to land in a stand of trees > land between two solid objects. The key to that statement is the word Land. Well said, Mike! -- Mickey Coggins http://www.rv8.ch/ #82007 finishing do not archive


    Message 5


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    Time: 03:31:24 PM PST US
    From: "Jerry Grimmonpre" <jerry@mc.net>
    Subject: Re: IFR Requirements
    Do Not Archive Hi Bob ... Would you please let the list know your opinion of this electric AI? I'm also planning some type AI to get around the vac system. Many thanks ... Jerry Grimmonpre' Flying RV4 RV8A Electrical Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 12:02 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: IFR Requirements Good Morning Kent, It is built by a good company and is very low priced. Time will tell us if it is a good buy or not. Reliability and durability are difficult to determine since the product is so new. (I have one on order, so I may be prejudiced!) Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8503 In a message dated 6/12/2006 9:54:48 P.M. Central Standard Time, kcorr@charter.net writes: To take this thread in a little different direction, what is everyone's thoughts on Sporty's electric backup attitude indicator? Kent


    Message 6


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    Time: 04:36:44 PM PST US
    From: "Frank Stringham" <fstringham@hotmail.com>
    Subject: Re: RV7A Tip Up Canopy Latch Mod....Plus IFR continued
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Frank Stringham" <fstringham@hotmail.com> Hi To all Since I started construction of my 7A I knew I was going to try a different latching mod for the tip up canopy. My requirements were to try and use a a lock set for exterior entry and or key less remote entry, auto type latch mechanism for interior opening/closing. Over the past three days I have been able to accomplish 1/3 of the task. I used an old junk yard purchased 90's vintage 1/2 ton Dodge truck latch/key set to fabricate the interior opening and closing mechanism. With some Lowe's Aero supplies/tap and die's/Al angle and sheet stock I was able to fabricate a great interior opening and closing latching system that uses WD 617 canopy latch similar to Van's typical set up. Now for the questions????????????? Any ideas or info on how the keyless remote can be attached?My idea right now is attach it to the starboard baggage side wall skin and have it's pull rod move forward through the seat bulk head and attach to the WD 617 canopy latch. The final third of the fabrication is to have the exterior lock set attach to the port side interior latch mechanism so the key can be used to open the canopy. I have some ideas on how to do this also but any suggestion would be appreciated. I will set up the panel in this airplane to fly IFR!......But I am under no illusions as to the capability of this airplane to fly what some call, "hard IFR". If there is a hint of ice, convective activity, or harsh weather I will enjoy another day on the ground knowing that Van's never intended this palne to be capable in these harsh conditions. My notion is that on those rare occassions where the fog layer is at minimums plus or the weather changes radically from pre planned status and a need to use IFR to get down and out of the weather fast, or I would like to be under the watchful EYE of ATC I will file IFR. I have really enjoyed all of the comments surrounding this subject and don't see it on par with primer wars................................Thanks for all your insights. One final note. Last Firday I had my first flight in a 7A. My wife, oldest son, and I toured the Van's plant. Bruce then took me up for the intro ride. To say the least, after a year and a half of building and wondering if I made the right decision, I can now say I know what an RV grin is. Now, mind you, mine is just a partial grin but I do look forwrd to when I have the full grin!!!!! Thanks to all for allowing me these ramblings and all the info you pass my way Frank @ SGU and SLC Canopy and yes still ,looking for $$$$$$$$$$$$ to finish this plane


    Message 7


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    Time: 04:52:16 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: Low voltage warning light
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net> At 06:43 AM 6/17/2006 -0700, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gary Casey <glcasey@adelphia.net> > >On my B&C voltage regulator I get a dim low-voltage warning for a >while after starting. The voltmeter shows that the alternator is >charging and regulating normally and eventually (after 10 minutes) >the light goes away. The light is an LED and I have the recommended >bypass resistor installed. I assume I should possibly go to a lower >value resistor? That would be my guess. Cut it about in half. Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > ---------------------------------------------------------


    Message 8


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    Time: 04:52:58 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: VOLTAGE FLUCTUATION
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net> At 10:04 AM 6/14/2006 -0600, you wrote: >I have had 55 hours of flying with no electrical problems until >now! Recently I saw something in flight that bothered me. >My panel lights started flickering a bit and the (Electronics >International) voltmeter showed varying voltages anywhere from 12.3 >volts up to 14 volts ... kind of erratically. Then the "Discharge" >light on the voltmeter lit up. Then the "Low Voltage" light coming >from my voltage regulator lit up. > >I have the B & C Solid State Voltage Regulator (Model LR3C-14) and the B & >C L-60 Alternator. > >Upon touch down and roll out everything went back to normal. No >"discharge" no "low voltage". I checked connections and everything >seems normal. I can't get it to act up on the ground. >Any ideas? You need a way to monitor field voltage output of the regulator while in flight. It's useful to know what the voltage is the next time it happens. See figure Z-23 Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > ---------------------------------------------------------


    Message 9


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    Time: 05:57:17 PM PST US
    From: BobsV35B@aol.com
    Subject: Re: IFR Requirements
    In a message dated 6/17/2006 5:33:13 P.M. Central Standard Time, jerry@mc.net writes: Do Not Archive Hi Bob ... Would you please let the list know your opinion of this electric AI? I'm also planning some type AI to get around the vac system. Many thanks ... Jerry Grimmonpre' Flying RV4 RV8A Electrical Good Evening Jerry, I will be glad to do so when I get the unit. They said it should ship sometime in July. My understanding is that they are selling a lot more than the manufacturer was prepared to supply. I guess that is a "Good Thing"! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8503


    Message 10


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    Time: 07:27:42 PM PST US
    From: "Ray Cole" <raycole@bellsouth.net>
    Subject: Re: Generator/regulator test
    Curt, Did you ever get an answer on this? Ray ----- Original Message ----- From: Curt To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2006 3:05 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Generator/regulator test I have a C90 with a 12v generator and electro-mechanical regulator (Delco). They do not seem to work Where can I acquire a test procedure for these? Any help greatly appreciated. N7733 Curt Crosby CCA, Inc 269 N. 2700 East Road Pana, Il 62557 Ofc: 217-562-2618 Cell: 217-827-1517 Pager: 217-562-7719


    Message 11


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    Time: 08:25:05 PM PST US
    From: "John Schroeder" <jschroeder@perigee.net>
    Subject: Re: Low voltage warning light
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Schroeder" <jschroeder@perigee.net> Gary - If you are substitutung an LED for the lamp that came with the regulator, Bob Nuckolls recommends a second resistor to make the LED function like the lamp. Both of the resistors are 540 ohm, 1/2W and use an NKK LED Lamp. I'll send you a copy of the wiring we are using in our ES. It uses an LED. Cheers, John On Sat, 17 Jun 2006 06:43:21 -0700, Gary Casey <glcasey@adelphia.net> wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gary Casey > <glcasey@adelphia.net> > > On my B&C voltage regulator I get a dim low-voltage warning for a while > after starting. The voltmeter shows that the alternator is charging and > regulating normally and eventually (after 10 minutes) the light goes > away. The light is an LED and I have the recommended bypass resistor > installed. I assume I should possibly go to a lower value resistor? > > Gary Casey > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > http://wiki.matronics.com > > > > > --


    Message 12


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    Time: 08:58:30 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
    Subject: RE: IFR Requirements
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net> At 11:26 AM 6/14/2006 -0400, you wrote: > >I don't have any problems with glass panels. I have a problem with how >some builders implement them. > >If you take a look at part 121 and most heavy iron aircraft with full >glass you'll see that they have duel independent EFIS systems (including >duel AHRS) with an electronic comparator/alerter and a third gyro >instrument. Now why do they have all this? > >We've many hours behind our old steam gauges and know their failure modes. >Not so with EFIS. Remember, it's a computer, and can fail in ways you've >never seen before. In some cases you won't even know it's failed. That >brings us to training. > >The airlines spend big bucks training their guys in EFIS switchology and >failure modes. Just where are we to get this kind of training? Our local >CFII? Some of these failure modes can't be duplicated in the aircraft and >need a simulator to do it right. But you say 'I'm good at partial panel', >so was this poor guy. ><http://www.aero-news.net/news/genav.cfm?ContentBlockID=8F3C17D0-5398-4355-BBB0-D47B0DAC1D23&Dynamic=1>http://www.aero-news.net/news/genav.cfm?ContentBlockID=8F3C17D0-5398-4355-BBB0-D47B0DAC1D23&Dynamic=1. >Those EFIS screens are very hypnotic and compelling. Remember when you >were doing partial panel with your CFII and he failed the ADI? He did that >by covering the instrument. In real life, the instrument just starts >leaning in pitch or roll. It's very difficult not to follow the gauge even >when you know it's failed. Imagine how difficult it would be with an EFIS. >If the AHRS goes bonkers and you still need the screen for ASI and >altitude. The best thing to do is just pull the breaker and fly with >what's left. > >I don't have the answers, perhaps others do. I've been watching this thread for several days. Didn't have time to participate . . . been hand-cuffed to the screen-room in the EMC lab chasing gremlins out of a new electronic window shade system. Finished up the hammer-n-tongs phase, got a bizillion- page report to do next week. May I suggest the following with respect to outfitting an OBAM aircraft for flight into IMC? It doesn't matter if your primary navigation data comes from stuff that spins, sucks, blows, hums or is splashed on the panel in high-definition pixels and millions of colors . . . it IS going to break sometime. The reliable flight SYSTEM is failure tolerant and the weakest link in most IFR control loops is the hunk of meat sitting in the left seat. Irrespective of what you use to fly the airplane manually, how about dual, independent, GPS aided wing levelers each with it's own power path and GPS data source? Then you can do ALL IMC maneuvers using hardware that flies a whole lot better than you do and doesn't fatigue in the process. Put what ever glass or spinny-things on the panel that make you (or your favorite bureaucrat) happy. But have an ace up your sleeve that he doesn't even have to know about and probably wouldn't care if he did know about it. One can debate part 91, TSO, STC, certification, qualification and regulations 'til the cows come home and none of those discussions will lead you to the holy grail of safety when stirring the crud. So you've done something that the bureaucrat's minions wouldn't 'approve'. When was the last time the guy running clearance delivery grilled you about what hardware you had on board or how skilled you were in using it? The only time debates about your choice of equipment and having skills to use it makes a difference to others is when they're digging your remains out of the smoking hole. Don't know about the rest of you, but an investigator's opinion of the propriety of my hardware or his judgment of my qualifications to use it are the least of my concerns. My personal requirements for system reliability depend on tools I understand and can make work for me. The goal is to reduce risk of having a debate about my hardware choices and operating skills by not bringing myself to the crash investigator's attention. A friend of mine got about as close to a failure tolerant system as the FAA would allow and died anyhow. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/All_Electric/N79NL.pdf Seems the shuttle valve between mechanical and electrical vacuum pumps hung up and didn't transfer when the electrically driven pump was turned on. This underscores the value of totally independent systems, not backups to highly stressed pieces of the same system. For all the $time$ invested in the panel equipment for that aircraft, it still didn't supply the pilot's basic expectations when needed. A stand-alone, kilo-buck wing leveler would have been less expensive than the standby vacuum pump and could have been totally independent of the highly integrated, highly stressed components "certified" onto that aircraft and holy-watered by those who claim to know more about airplanes than we do. There are folks with an air of authority who will assure you that worship before the altar of FARS is the path to salvation but enough folks buy the farm every year to make their claims suspect . . . but then, they also run the investigative agency that can burn a little incense (blow smoke in our eyes) and chant "pilot error" a few times before filing the story of your last flight in the cabinets along side N79NL. The LAST back up hardware I would choose are panel displays that depend on my abilities to keep the airplane right side up while there was a need to attend to other duties as well. The pilot of N79NL was about as skilled and experienced as they come. He took every refresher and every pilot who flew with him regarded his abilities as "the best". The one thing that never gets tested in practice is loosing the main nav source AND the back up source AND having to recover the airplane while your head is spinning in disbelief that this is really happening (after all, he installed holy-watered hardware to KEEP this from happening). Now, he still has needle-ball-airspeed and a 3" electric vertical gyro. He also had an adrenaline level running 1000% of normal and a cabin full of panicked passengers. The FARS are silent on those points as they should be . . . even the FAA wouldn't propose to control them. How to avoid it? Make sure that you've got enough redundancy in the SIMPLEST practical hardware to hold a heading with precision. It's not hard. It's not expensive. Best yet, it keeps adrenaline levels for both you and your passengers at normal levels. Only then can the passengers be properly impressed with your favorite spinny-things and/or bright colors on the panel . . . blissfully unaware that you don't plan to NEED them to keep order in the cockpit when the ground disappears. The very BEST system is one that requires the LEAST training, offers the SIMPLEST instruction manual, has the LOWEST parts count and MINIMIZES the human component in the sensor->display->human->controls attitude stabilization loop. Unlike our spam-can driving brothers, we can craft a system where the instructions fit on one side of a recipe card and requires only sufficient training to demonstrate that you understand the words written on it. All you need to aviate is knowing what the ON/OFF switch does and what the 1-degree increment buttons do when you hold them down (standard rate turn) while you stay out of the loop. We've had lengthy debates on the list about the best kind of display for recovering an airplane after upset . . . I prefer a design that prevents upset in the first place. Mooney got as close as they could to this condition with the PC (positive control) feature that was stock on some models. They were limited by what a turn-coordinator, vacuum pump and tomato-juice-can servos could do in 1960. With dirt cheap electronics, we can elevate Mooney's 45 year-old philosophy to a modern, practical implementation that is about as robust as prop bolts. Bob . . .




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