---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 06/24/06: 26 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:34 AM - Re: CB Size requirements? (Kevin Horton) 2. 03:23 AM - Panel layout (Dave Thompson) 3. 04:28 AM - Re: Panel layout (FLYaDIVE@aol.com) 4. 07:51 AM - Re: Panel layout (BobsV35B@aol.com) 5. 08:42 AM - Re: Disorientation (Mark Sletten) 6. 09:37 AM - Re: CB Size requirements? (Jim Oke) 7. 09:52 AM - Re: Re: Disorientation (BobsV35B@aol.com) 8. 11:28 AM - Re: Aeroelectric-List: Panel layout (Dave Thompson) 9. 12:49 PM - Re: Re: Aeroelectric-List: Panel layout (BobsV35B@aol.com) 10. 01:08 PM - Re: CB Size requirements? (FLYaDIVE@aol.com) 11. 01:22 PM - KT-76C lighting (sarg314) 12. 01:22 PM - FW: Fw: AMBER ALERT !!! (Pete & Farrell Rouse) 13. 01:22 PM - Re: Disorientation. (Brian Lloyd) 14. 01:34 PM - Re: Ammeter surge problem (Brian Lloyd) 15. 02:53 PM - Re: KT-76C lighting (FLYaDIVE@aol.com) 16. 02:53 PM - Re: Disorientation. (Brian Lloyd) 17. 03:07 PM - Ammeter surge problem (Gary Liming) 18. 03:18 PM - Blue Mountain EFIS -Lite Problem (FLYaDIVE@aol.com) 19. 04:19 PM - Re: CB Size requirements? (Jim Corner) 20. 05:38 PM - PC-680 Revisited (Charles Brame) 21. 06:08 PM - Re: PC-680 Revisited (Bob White) 22. 06:19 PM - Re: PC-680 Revisited (Ed Anderson) 23. 06:21 PM - Re: Blue Mountain EFIS -Lite Problem (Brian Lloyd) 24. 06:38 PM - Re: Blue Mountain EFIS -Lite Problem (Brett Ferrell) 25. 07:01 PM - Re: PC-680 Revisited (Brian Lloyd) 26. 08:21 PM - Re: Blue Mountain EFIS -Lite Problem (FLYaDIVE@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:34:05 AM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: CB Size requirements? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kevin Horton On 24 Jun 2006, at 24:43, FLYaDIVE@aol.com wrote: > Hello Group: > > I have searched the web without any luck ... I'm looking for the CB > requirements for a King KX 125, would anyone have info on this? > The purpose of the CB is to protect the wire from overheating if there is a short. The purpose is not to protect the radio. The only thing the wiring can do that can hurt the radio is provide high voltage if the alternator's voltage regulator fails. You need an overvoltage protection system to prevent this. A CB cannot stop high voltage, as a CB is triggered based on excessive current, not excessive voltage. The size of CB depends you need depends on the size of the wire. What size wire provides power to the radio? Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) Ottawa, Canada http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:23:26 AM PST US From: "Dave Thompson" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Panel layout I for one have enjoyed the discussions on TB, TC & AI. OK, this should give you old guys chuckle. Sorry if this is too far off subject. Qualification or Disqualification: I am 23 years out of currency with only 125 hours in C-150 & C-172s plus 5 hours in my fathers Quickie and about 50 unlogged hours in our B1RD ultralight. I am tooling up (both physically and mentally) to build a 601XL/Corvair. I plan to get current again in the rental 601XL at the local FBO when mine gets close to flying. Now that I have finished building my shop and am waiting for kit money, I have been playing around drawing panel layouts using Microsoft Visio. Somewhere in the past I found a great article on typical instrument layout. It discussed typical T configuration and six-pack etc layouts. I have lost it now that I really need it. Can anyone direct me to sources of info on proper and typical flight instrument layouts? I will be flying VFR Day until I obtain enough time and instruction to properly transition into VFR night and so on. I want to plan my panel accordingly. Most likely, at first, I will have covered instrument holes for later upgrades. I want a proper panel with the right things in the right places. I plan to use only 3-3/8 inch flight instrumentation, no glass panels. At this point I have an Alt, electric T&B and whisky compass salvaged from the Quickie. I plan to add an AS, VSI and eventually an electric AI. I am not sure what the PROPER arrangement should be. I have read the aeroelectric connection with updates three times. I have not started the electrical design yet. I have to pull lots of rivets first. Thank you in advance for any input. Dave Thompson dave.thompson@verizon.net 601XL rudder workshop rudder, building a Corvair ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:28:12 AM PST US From: FLYaDIVE@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Panel layout --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com In a message dated 6/24/06 6:30:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dave.thompson@verizon.net writes: > Most likely, at first, I > will have covered instrument holes for later upgrades. I want a proper panel > with the right things in the right places. I plan to use only 3-3/8 inch > flight instrumentation, no glass panels. ================================== Dave: The basic 6 pack view is available in ACS Catalog. But, I have to ask WHY no glass panels? You can save TIME, MONEY, PANEL SPACE and make your instal so much nicer, easier and develop a 100% better scan. There are so many other advantages such as resale value, lighter in weight less materials, lower points of failure. AND if you want radiancy just and a second unit and second battery. Why go backwards in time even the new planes are going glass and they have to fight with the FAA to do so ... You do not! Barry "Chop'd Liver" PS The gages are 3 1/8" Diameter ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:51:01 AM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Panel layout In a message dated 6/24/2006 5:30:00 A.M. Central Standard Time, dave.thompson@verizon.net writes: I am 23 years out of currency with only 125 hours in C-150 & C-172s plus 5 hours in my fathers Quickie and about 50 unlogged hours in our B1RD ultralight. I am tooling up (both physically and mentally) to build a 601XL/Corvair. I plan to get current again in the rental 601XL at the local FBO when mine gets close to flying. Good Morning Dave, First, let me welcome you to the list and congratulate you for the accomplishments you have managed at such a young age. We need more folks like you if General Aviation is to survive at all. There are too many like me around and too few like you! May I suggest that you consider making your instrument panel easily removable? Your needs and your capabilities will change as you step through the various stages of flight. By making a removable panel section, you can make the changes relatively painless when your needs do change. One quick comment on instrument size. You mentioned three and three eights inch standard size. If you were referring to over all size, that IS close to the average, but if you were referring to the opening in the panel, three and ONE eighths inch is the norm. The overall size of the various instruments does vary quite a bit, especially on modern units. Back in the olden days, especially during WWII, the sizes were very much standardized for other than the attitude gyro and the directional gyro which were relatively large. Back to the placement of individual instruments. The so called standard six pack was a development of the late fifties and early sixties. Using the basic instruments of the day, tests were conducted to determine ease of use for IFR flight. What is optimum for IFR flight is not necessarily optimum for VFR flight. Not only that, but the type of navigational instruments installed does affect the optimum placement of the instruments used for IFR reference. The tests showed that a human eye can move two "standard" instruments to the right or left about as easily as it can check one instrument up or down. Therefore, if you wish to add another instrument to the "Six Pack" it is more efficient to add it to one side or the other than it is to add it above or below. That rule is somewhat dependent on just where the needed information is located on the instrument being used. One example would be the placement of the vertical speed instrument, if one is to be installed (It is NOT a required instrument for IFR flight, but most of us like to have one.) I like to put the altimeter to the right of whatever instrument is my primary reference instrument. I then try to place the VSI immediately to the right of the altimeter. The needle on the VSI is generally hinged on the right side of the instrument which means the part that moves is on the left. By placing the VSI to the right of the altimeter, the distance between the VSI needle and the altimeter is reduced. That is a "Good Thing"! A little more history. In the days when we were not allowed to use an attitude gyro in instrument flight training, the most common arrangement was for the T&B to be in the middle and in the prime real estate of the panel with the altimeter on one side and the airspeed on the other. When the standard panel was pushed by the authorities in the fifties, they suggested that the airspeed be on the left and the altimeter on the right. That is the way most current panels are laid out. The VSI instrument , as I said before will be easiest to read if it is to the right of the altimeter for basic flight maneuvers, but if you decide to shoot some sort of a vertically guided approach such as an ILS or LPV, it is nice to have VSI to the right of the glide path needle. You see, we have already come up with two different possibilities for the VSI and it is not a required instrument! That is why I believe you should plan for change in the future. Don't lock yourself into a fixed panel if you can possibly avoid doing so. Next comment. I believe the future is in the glass cockpit. The placement of auxiliary instruments is going to be dependent on which instruments are included within the glass chosen and what style of navigation is to be used. One of the things that made it fairly easy for we ancient folks to successfully fly IFR without any Attitude Gyro or Directional Gyro was that we navigated primarily by listening. We did not have to change frequencies or use our eyes to tell which way to turn. We just listened to the A and N signals, developed a mental picture of our location and made turns using the turn needle as appropriate. We hardly ever had to talk on the radio and we never had to take time away from flying the airplane to tune a radio, adjust a CDI course or fiddle with a GPS. What does all of this have to do with your panel layout? You must first decide what you want to do with your airplane. After that, you can decide on instruments to be used and the placement thereof. See why I think the panel should easily removable? Since you do want to move in stages and I believe you are interested in gaining knowledge, my suggestion would be that you plan to have a new Gee Whiz combo glass panel as the primary use of panel space. If it were my airplane and you were one of my grandchildren, I would suggest that you start out by installing a nominal "three and one eighth inch" size T&B in the center of your first panel. To the right of that, an altimeter, and to the right of that, a VSI if you want one. To the left of the T&B, I would suggest the airspeed indicator. To the left of the AS, a clock. Directly above the T&B , I would place a nice stable old fashioned "Whiskey Compass." That would give you the panel we all used when we first started to actively fly IFR. It would also provide a very complete back up to whatever glass you decide to use in the future. When you decide on the glass, it would replace the whiskey compass. In these days of GPS, the whiskey compass and the clock are primarily things to remind us of whence we came! While you are waiting for the funds to purchase the more modern stuff, you can practice flying with the T&B and gain the confidence in the instrument that will allow you to use it as a last ditch survival tool should it ever be needed. It is a LOT easier to learn to fly with a T&B if the panel has no other information vying for your attention! One more point. I do not recommend VFR flight at night unless you have the capability to fly the airplane by reference to instruments. Since there is no requirement for instruments during night flight, any instrument you have that will keep you right side up is legal to use and will do the job. If you elect to start off with nothing other than a basic Dynon unit, that would certainly be a very wise choice and would probably be more than adequate for night flight. If you desire to start out with a T&B, it will require that you take training and gain a considerable amount of skill before it will serve as a night time instrument. The T&B is a LOT cheaper and it has a known reliability factor, but it does take training to learn how to use it with enough confidence such that you will use it to stay alive. My Stearman is not equipped for IFR flight, but I do fly it at night. Because of that, I have it equipped with two T&Bs. One is vacuum powered and the other is electric. If I do lose visual reference at night, I know that I can keep it right side up until I am once again able to fly the airplane via visual reference. The failure mode of a T&B is such that it is very easy to tell whether or not it is working. If it wiggles, it is working. If it stops wiggling, it is not working. No leans and no conflicting information is provided by the failed instrument. For what it is worth, I have a two and a quarter inch electric T&B in the lower center of the panel. Above that is the three and an eighth inch vacuum T&B. Above the vacuum T&B is a relatively large whiskey compass. To the right of the vacuum T&B is an altimeter and to the right of that is a VSI. To the left of the vacuum T&B is the airspeed. To the left of that is a G meter. I also have a Garmin 295 that is mounted where it can be easily referenced without interfering with my view of the installed panel. Hopefully, by the time you are ready to actually fly at night or IFR, 'Lectric Bob, or someone else, will have developed an autopilot that will make the ability to fly by reference to the instruments an ancient and unnecessary art. In the meantime, think of all the fun you will have learning the intricacies of the T&B. Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8503 Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:42:38 AM PST US From: "Mark Sletten" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Disorientation --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark Sletten" GMCJetPilot said: You CAN'T buy a new airliner or business plane w/ mechanical gyros anymore. My guess is GA planes also will stop coming w/ mech gyros and yes T&B's. Already all top end GA planes have EFIS and no T&B. Cirrus / Lancair all EFIS and no T&B. These top of line EIFS GA planes do come with backup mechanical airspeed, altimeter and attitude indicator (AI) but no T&B. All true, and one of the prime reasons the FAA has recently started a new training initiative (FAA/Industry Training Standard [FITS] for Technologically Advanced Aircraft [TAA]) aimed at preparing general aviation pilots for the rigors of flying with all the new technology. Many flight schools offer this training; some refer to it as "glass panel transition" training. Aircraft manufacturers offering glass panel technology in their aircraft offer (strongly suggest) FITS even for their VFR pilot customers. Note that this training is in addition to that required to attain your private pilot certificate. GMCJetPilot said: Also the Regs allow you to omit a rate of turn indicator altogether if you have AI's at each pilot station and one back-up AI with independent power source. So you don't see T&B's on Cirrus, Lancair or Jets but you will see two or three AI's. Your arguments about airliners (and other aircraft) that may dispense with rate of turn instruments by installing attitude instruments at both pilot stations is a good one -- as long as a trained, competent pilot occupies the other seat. I'm not telling you anything new when I point out that two-pilot operations is one of the primary factors behind the phenomenal safety record of the airline industry. Using panel-design standards optimized for two-pilot ops in a single-pilot aircraft might not yield the same result. If your significant other has ever shared intimate knowledge of their past significant others you may have thought to yourself "too much information." I can easily see the TMI beast rearing it's ugly head in the cockpit equipped not only with an EFIS (which will, like it or not, become your PRIMARY attitude instrument) and artificial horizons all over the place. You'd better carry several of those instrument suction cup thingies to cover the ones that make you feel uncomfortable... As to the relative value of the rate of turn instrument, I'd like to help clarify what I believe to be Old Bob's point. If I'm speaking out of turn here Old Bob, please feel free to slap me back to my place, but I believe the point you are trying to make is "stop the turn." Yeah, I think I read that! In my youth I had occasion to attend USAF Physiological Training (otherwise known as the Altitude Chamber). Aside from discussing the effects of high altitude on human physiology, we were given the opportunity for a ride in a device, the Vertigon, that demonstrates the effects of a discontinuity in the motion perceived by your brain and the motion you are actually experiencing, otherwise knows as vertigo. The individual is placed inside the Vertigon, which is a mock up cockpit with no external visual cues. Once inside and "flying" on instruments, ATC directs a climbing right turn, at which point the Vertigon begins a slow spin around the vertical axis -- to the occupant it feels just like a climbing right turn! Contrary to popular misunderstanding, your vestibular system (that's your body's seat-of-the-pants motion detection system) does not sense motion or movement, it senses acceleration through the displacement of small hairs disturbed by fluid in a tube in your ear. As your head is moved, the fluid in the tube tries to remain stationary (a body at rest tends to remain at rest...). The tube, attached to your head, moves "around" the stationary fluid, and the sensing hairs are "bent" by the stationary fluid. The faster the movement the greater the bending of the hairs, which is interpreted by your brain as ever more violent movement, but is actually acceleration. If you continue the movement, eventually the friction between the tube/sensing hairs and the fluid will cause the fluid to accelerate to the same speed as the movement -- your brain interprets this as continuing movement. If you suddenly stop the movement, the fluid, due to it's momentum, continues to move displacing the hairs in the opposite direction and, voila', VERTIGO! (For a really good demonstration of this, get a friend [you trust] to spot you while you spin around on your feet for about a minute or so with your eyes closed in the back yard. If you suddenly stop spinning [keep your eyes closed] I can almost guarantee you will have great difficulty remaining on your feet -- that's why you want to do it in your back yard so if/when you fall down and go boom you don't hurt yourself or the furniture.) Your brain can "update" your vestibular inputs with visual stimuli. This is how figure skaters are able to stand up after those violent spins; they've TRAINED their brain to override vestibular sensation with visual sensation. And that's how pilots are able to control their aircraft using only instruments. But if a motion is allowed to continue long enough, and the pilot is unpracticed in dealing with the resulting conflicting vestibular/visual data presented, disaster... Back to Physiological Training. The unsuspecting occupant has been spinning slowly in the Vertigon (it doesn't take much, maybe 10 RPM) for some time when he/she is asked to change the squawk -- the control panel for which happens to be between the pilot's legs. The movement of tilting the head forward from vertical to look down between your legs wreaks all kinds of havoc with the vestibular system, and is enough to create an almost overwhelming feeling of vertigo. Spectators standing around the Vertigon can usually tell exactly when vertigo has occurred from the sometimes violent noises made by the victim's flailing limbs as he/she tries desperately to keep from falling out of his/her seat. It's truly a remarkable experience, a sickening-frightening-disorienting feeling which is almost impossible to describe with words. So what's my point? Well, it's the same point Old Bob has been trying to make. Airplanes don't spin around the lateral or longitudinal axis, they spin around the vertical axis. If an un-commanded turn develops in IMC and is allowed to continue, eventually the fluid in the tubes of your vestibular system will accelerate to the same speed as the spin about the vertical axis. As you now know, when you try to stop the motion, you WILL experience vertigo -- the more violent the spin, the more violent the vertigo. Obviously, this greatly compounds the pilot's task of recovery. What's the best way to avoid this? STOP THE TURN IMMEDIATELY! What Bob has been trying to impress on everyone is that controlling the turn makes all other aircraft control tasks possible. If you loose control of the vertical axis then your chances of VERTIGO go up exponentially. The T&B/TC instrument is designed for one purpose, controlling the turn. Controlling an aircraft solely by means of instruments is tricky enough without having also to contend with vertigo. The best method of avoiding vertigo is to stop the turn. Next time you IFR pilots (VFR pilots might consider bringing your CFII along for this one) are flying about boring holes in the air with nothing better to do try this: slow and trim the aircraft to best-glide speed, close the throttle, take your hands off the control yoke (put them in your lap), and use the rudder to keep the ball & needle centered if you have a T&B, or keep the ball centered and the small aircraft level if you have a TC. You will now be in a 1000' - 1200' foot/min descent with the wings level at a relatively slow airspeed. In fact, if you experiment you'll find you can start/stop shallow (standard-rate) turns in this configuration quite easily using only the rudder. By adding throttle you can slow/stop the descent, and now you're safely flying the aircraft with only the rudder and throttle, by reference to only the rate of turn instrument and the altimeter. The T&B/TC is the only instrument you can do this with easily -- it's almost a no-brainer. And it's all possible by CONTROLLING THE TURN! DISCLAIMER: The last-ditch maneuver described above should only be used under the hood while training with a competent CFII or in the case of EMERGENCY. If you find yourself in IMC accidentally with no clear idea which way to turn to get back out you might use this maneuver to get yourself down. The intent is that you pop out the bottom of the cloud with enough altitude to continue flying and find a good spot to put it down safely, but if you hit level ground in this attitude you'll probably survive unless you fly directly into an obstacle. The VFR pilot should NOT PLAN to use this maneuver as a method to descend through an overcast. If you find yourself on top of an overcast you should turn around and fly back to IMC IMMEDIATELY. You definitely don't want to attempt this maneuver for the first time in actual IMC -- PRACTICE WITH YOUR INSTRUCTOR! Mark Sletten Legacy FG N828LM http://www.legecyfgbuilder.com ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:37:07 AM PST US From: Jim Oke Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: CB Size requirements? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jim Oke Kevin has described the rationale for the "maximum size" circuit breaker in a circuit powering a radio (or other electrical device) which is to protect the power feed wire in the event of a short. There is also a "minimum size" CB required to pass enough electrical power to the device (avionics engineers that I know like the term "appliance"). Since voltage is generally fixed at close to 12 -14 volts, this really means getting enough current to power the device. Typically a VHF radio will use something like 200-400 milliamps on receive (depending on the audio volume and squelch settings) and 3-5 amps on transmit. Too small a CB means a nuisance trip of the CB every time you attempt to transmit - nothing is wrong just the CB is too small to pass enough power to the radio when it is transmitting. Typically a 50% extra capacity is added to deal with power surges as the transmit cycle begins so if 5 amps needed - use 7.5 amps, etc. The manufacturers are reluctant to widely advertise the installation details of their equipment perhaps to encourage buyers to hire the dealers who sell the stuff to do the installation as well thus sending a bit of business their way. So that's why the power supply specs are less than readily available. The KX-125 specs seem to suggest a 5 watt transmitter (RF) power output. Most radios in this range will do fine with a 10 amp CB so, failing anything else, try that size of CB. This means sizing the wiring so that it is big enough to pass that amount of current continuously without harm in the event of a short. A bit of oversize on the wiring does no harm and helps reduce voltage drop at the radio which is a separate issue but related issue when powering a device. No harm is done if the wiring will take more current than the CB will pass as the wire is quite adequately protected by the CB. Jim Oke Wpg., MB RV-6A C-GKGZ Kevin Horton wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kevin Horton > > > On 24 Jun 2006, at 24:43, FLYaDIVE@aol.com wrote: > >> Hello Group: >> >> I have searched the web without any luck ... I'm looking for the CB >> requirements for a King KX 125, would anyone have info on this? >> > > The purpose of the CB is to protect the wire from overheating if > there is a short. The purpose is not to protect the radio. The only > thing the wiring can do that can hurt the radio is provide high > voltage if the alternator's voltage regulator fails. You need an > overvoltage protection system to prevent this. A CB cannot stop high > voltage, as a CB is triggered based on excessive current, not > excessive voltage. > > The size of CB depends you need depends on the size of the wire. > What size wire provides power to the radio? > > Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) > Ottawa, Canada > http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > http://wiki.matronics.com > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:52:16 AM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Disorientation In a message dated 6/24/2006 10:48:15 A.M. Central Standard Time, marknlisa@hometel.com writes: As to the relative value of the rate of turn instrument, I'd like to help clarify what I believe to be Old Bob's point. If I'm speaking out of turn here Old Bob, please feel free to slap me back to my place, but I believe the point you are trying to make is "stop the turn." Yeah, I think I read that! Good Morning Mark, I only wish I were educated and eloquent enough to state it as you have so graciously and effectively done! Thank you very much!! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8503 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:28:31 AM PST US From: "Dave Thompson" Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Aeroelectric-List: Panel layout Bob, Thank you for all your kind words of wisdom. My question was well answered. A few clarification notes: I am 49; I have not flown for 23 years. We lost the Quickie in the Arizona desert enroot to the 1980 Oshkosh air show. Nobody was hurt but she was no longer airworthy. We sold the B1RD several years later and I have not flown since due to financial reasons. I do plan to make removable panels for future upgrades. It's cool that my guesses are very similar to what you have described. Attached for you Bob is one of my most favorite layouts for your entertainment and suggestions. I will post a photo-share for the other guys. I drew it using Microsoft Visio. Anyone that wants a copy of my templates is welcome to them. The instruments are copied from websites which means that some of them may be copywrited. With this in mind, I will not sell them, I will only share them. The templates are also very large file sizes so they are too large to e-mail. If someone has an FTP server that is willing to host the templates, please let me know so I can make them available to whoever wants them. I have a great deal of other instruments & avionics templates not used in my plan, all divided by the manufacturer or type. My apologies if some of you think this is too far of subject. It seems to me that if we are talking about aeroelectric, we are also building panels. Dave Thompson Westminster, CA _____ Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2006 7:44 AM In a message dated 6/24/2006 5:30:00 A.M. Central Standard Time, dave.thompson@verizon.net writes: I am 23 years out of currency with only 125 hours in C-150 & C-172s plus 5 hours in my fathers Quickie and about 50 unlogged hours in our B1RD ultralight. I am tooling up (both physically and mentally) to build a 601XL/Corvair. I plan to get current again in the rental 601XL at the local FBO when mine gets close to flying. Good Morning Dave, First, let me welcome you to the list and congratulate you for the accomplishments you have managed at such a young age. We need more folks like you if General Aviation is to survive at all. There are too many like me around and too few like you! May I suggest that you consider making your instrument panel easily removable? Your needs and your capabilities will change as you step through the various stages of flight. By making a removable panel section, you can make the changes relatively painless when your needs do change. One quick comment on instrument size. You mentioned three and three eights inch standard size. If you were referring to over all size, that IS close to the average, but if you were referring to the opening in the panel, three and ONE eighths inch is the norm. The overall size of the various instruments does vary quite a bit, especially on modern units. Back in the olden days, especially during WWII, the sizes were very much standardized for other than the attitude gyro and the directional gyro which were relatively large. Back to the placement of individual instruments. The so called standard six pack was a development of the late fifties and early sixties. Using the basic instruments of the day, tests were conducted to determine ease of use for IFR flight. What is optimum for IFR flight is not necessarily optimum for VFR flight. Not only that, but the type of navigational instruments installed does affect the optimum placement of the instruments used for IFR reference. The tests showed that a human eye can move two "standard" instruments to the right or left about as easily as it can check one instrument up or down. Therefore, if you wish to add another instrument to the "Six Pack" it is more efficient to add it to one side or the other than it is to add it above or below. That rule is somewhat dependent on just where the needed information is located on the instrument being used. One example would be the placement of the vertical speed instrument, if one is to be installed (It is NOT a required instrument for IFR flight, but most of us like to have one.) I like to put the altimeter to the right of whatever instrument is my primary reference instrument. I then try to place the VSI immediately to the right of the altimeter. The needle on the VSI is generally hinged on the right side of the instrument which means the part that moves is on the left. By placing the VSI to the right of the altimeter, the distance between the VSI needle and the altimeter is reduced. That is a "Good Thing"! A little more history. In the days when we were not allowed to use an attitude gyro in instrument flight training, the most common arrangement was for the T&B to be in the middle and in the prime real estate of the panel with the altimeter on one side and the airspeed on the other. When the standard panel was pushed by the authorities in the fifties, they suggested that the airspeed be on the left and the altimeter on the right. That is the way most current panels are laid out. The VSI instrument , as I said before will be easiest to read if it is to the right of the altimeter for basic flight maneuvers, but if you decide to shoot some sort of a vertically guided approach such as an ILS or LPV, it is nice to have VSI to the right of the glide path needle. You see, we have already come up with two different possibilities for the VSI and it is not a required instrument! That is why I believe you should plan for change in the future. Don't lock yourself into a fixed panel if you can possibly avoid doing so. Next comment. I believe the future is in the glass cockpit. The placement of auxiliary instruments is going to be dependent on which instruments are included within the glass chosen and what style of navigation is to be used. One of the things that made it fairly easy for we ancient folks to successfully fly IFR without any Attitude Gyro or Directional Gyro was that we navigated primarily by listening. We did not have to change frequencies or use our eyes to tell which way to turn. We just listened to the A and N signals, developed a mental picture of our location and made turns using the turn needle as appropriate. We hardly ever had to talk on the radio and we never had to take time away from flying the airplane to tune a radio, adjust a CDI course or fiddle with a GPS. What does all of this have to do with your panel layout? You must first decide what you want to do with your airplane. After that, you can decide on instruments to be used and the placement thereof. See why I think the panel should easily removable? Since you do want to move in stages and I believe you are interested in gaining knowledge, my suggestion would be that you plan to have a new Gee Whiz combo glass panel as the primary use of panel space. If it were my airplane and you were one of my grandchildren, I would suggest that you start out by installing a nominal "three and one eighth inch" size T&B in the center of your first panel. To the right of that, an altimeter, and to the right of that, a VSI if you want one. To the left of the T&B, I would suggest the airspeed indicator. To the left of the AS, a clock. Directly above the T&B , I would place a nice stable old fashioned "Whiskey Compass." That would give you the panel we all used when we first started to actively fly IFR. It would also provide a very complete back up to whatever glass you decide to use in the future. When you decide on the glass, it would replace the whiskey compass. In these days of GPS, the whiskey compass and the clock are primarily things to remind us of whence we came! While you are waiting for the funds to purchase the more modern stuff, you can practice flying with the T&B and gain the confidence in the instrument that will allow you to use it as a last ditch survival tool should it ever be needed. It is a LOT easier to learn to fly with a T&B if the panel has no other information vying for your attention! One more point. I do not recommend VFR flight at night unless you have the capability to fly the airplane by reference to instruments. Since there is no requirement for instruments during night flight, any instrument you have that will keep you right side up is legal to use and will do the job. If you elect to start off with nothing other than a basic Dynon unit, that would certainly be a very wise choice and would probably be more than adequate for night flight. If you desire to start out with a T&B, it will require that you take training and gain a considerable amount of skill before it will serve as a night time instrument. The T&B is a LOT cheaper and it has a known reliability factor, but it does take training to learn how to use it with enough confidence such that you will use it to stay alive. My Stearman is not equipped for IFR flight, but I do fly it at night. Because of that, I have it equipped with two T&Bs. One is vacuum powered and the other is electric. If I do lose visual reference at night, I know that I can keep it right side up until I am once again able to fly the airplane via visual reference. The failure mode of a T&B is such that it is very easy to tell whether or not it is working. If it wiggles, it is working. If it stops wiggling, it is not working. No leans and no conflicting information is provided by the failed instrument. For what it is worth, I have a two and a quarter inch electric T&B in the lower center of the panel. Above that is the three and an eighth inch vacuum T&B. Above the vacuum T&B is a relatively large whiskey compass. To the right of the vacuum T&B is an altimeter and to the right of that is a VSI. To the left of the vacuum T&B is the airspeed. To the left of that is a G meter. I also have a Garmin 295 that is mounted where it can be easily referenced without interfering with my view of the installed panel. Hopefully, by the time you are ready to actually fly at night or IFR, 'Lectric Bob, or someone else, will have developed an autopilot that will make the ability to fly by reference to the instruments an ancient and unnecessary art. In the meantime, think of all the fun you will have learning the intricacies of the T&B. Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8503 Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:49:07 PM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE: Aeroelectric-List: Panel layout In a message dated 6/24/2006 1:37:13 P.M. Central Standard Time, dave.thompson@verizon.net writes: A few clarification notes: I am 49; I have not flown for 23 years. We lost the Quickie in the Arizona desert enroute to the 1980 Oshkosh air show. Nobody was hurt but she was no longer airworthy. We sold the B1RD several years later and I have not flown since due to financial reasons. I do plan to make removable panels for future upgrades. Good Afternoon Dave, Well, it appears that you are the age of our younger children rather than our grandchildren. Still happy to see you back in aviation. Please accept my apologies for not reading your original message more carefully. The way you young people can do things with a computer is absolutely fantastic. Your layout looks beautiful. Of course, I would eliminate that Turn Coordinator and replace it with a Turn and Bank Instrument, but I guess that is what started this whole discussion! Thank you for the very kind words and the picture of your proposed panel. Do you think you could spread the altitude and airspeed out far enough to use a Dynon in lieu of the attitude gyro? Do Not Archive Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8503 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:08:20 PM PST US From: FLYaDIVE@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: CB Size requirements? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com In a message dated 6/24/06 12:42:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, wjoke@shaw.ca writes: > Typically a 50% extra capacity is added > to deal with power surges as the transmit cycle begins so if 5 amps > needed - use 7.5 amps, etc. > > The manufacturers are reluctant to widely advertise the installation > details of their equipment perhaps to encourage buyers to hire the > dealers who sell the stuff to do the installation as well thus sending a > bit of business their way. So that's why the power supply specs are less > than readily available. The KX-125 specs seem to suggest a 5 watt > transmitter (RF) power output. Most radios in this range will do fine > with a 10 amp CB so, failing anything else, try that size of CB. This > means sizing the wiring so that it is big enough to pass that amount of > current continuously without harm in the event of a short. A bit of > oversize on the wiring does no harm and helps reduce voltage drop at the > radio which is a separate issue but related issue when powering a > device. No harm is done if the wiring will take more current than the CB > will pass as the wire is quite adequately protected by the CB. > > Jim Oke > Wpg., MB > RV-6A C-GKGZ ================================ Jim: Thank you for a very realistic answer. I should have phrased my question better ... "What is the current draw of a King KX 125?" I found that the current draw on a Garmin GNC 250 XL is rated at 5.5 Amps during transmit. Of course that also has a moving map and its additional current draw. If I subtract 0.5 Amps for the GPS and moving map that leaves me with 5.0 Amps. Taking that with a 50% safety margin that puts me right at 7.5 Amps ... :-) Good size for a CB. GOOD SUGGESTION Jim. I wired the feed to the Radio Buss with 12 AWG and the Buss itself with 14 AWG so I have ample capacity. Now here is a follow up question. I don't have much experience with radar, but the Xponder only requires a 5 AMP CB; yet the power output of the unit is 250 Watts. How come such a low CB? I'm taking a WAG here, does it have to do with the Duty Cycle of the transmission? Thanks again Jim, Barry "Chop'd Liver" ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:22:28 PM PST US From: sarg314 Subject: AeroElectric-List: KT-76C lighting --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: sarg314 Perhaps some one with a KT-76C transponder can explain this. I have an old KT-76C, not installed yet, and am trying to figure out the display lighting. The operating manual describes adjusting the display brightness by selecting "TST" mode and pushing the 0 key to decrease brightness and 7 key to increase it. Sounds great - it controls it's own brightness. However, the pinout on the connector specifies that pin 2 should be hooked up to the 14v panel light dimmer. Why 2 brightness controls? Does this input on pin 2 actually power the LED display? Why not just connect this to +12v and use the front panel feature to control brightness? If I do hook this up to a dimmer, how much power does it draw? I can't find any reference to power consumption in the specs. Thanks, -- Tom Sargent, RV-6A ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:22:28 PM PST US From: "Pete & Farrell Rouse" Subject: AeroElectric-List: FW: Fw: AMBER ALERT !!! PLEASE PRAY FOR THIS CHILD TO COME HOME SAFELY (EVERYONE STOP AND PRAY FOR HER AND PASS IT OUT TO EVERYONE MAYBE SOMEONE WILL SEE THEM.) GOD PUT YOUR PROTECTIVE ARMS AROUND HER AND KEEP HER SAFE LORD. AMEN AMBER ALERT!!!!! I need everyones help!!!! Please repost this ASAP. This is the daughter of a very close personal friend. Her worst nightmare came true as a parent. Her little girl was abducted by what they thought was a family friend. We need to get the word around so we can get this sweet little girl back to her family. Follow the instructions at the bottom to repost this message please!! Larry BEFORE YOU SKIP THIS, LOOK AT THE KID. DO IT AGAIN. NOW TRY TO REPOST. IT TAKES 10 SECONDS. PEOPLE ARE MISSING HER AND SHE WANTS TO BE HOME. DO SOMETHING GOOD. If you were to see her, or had any information, you would contact the Minot Police Department at (701)852-0111. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:22:28 PM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Disorientation. On Jun 23, 2006, at 3:11 PM, BobsV35B@aol.com wrote: > So far, the T&B, with suitable training, has been my instrument of > choice. It does seem that, with all that has been done in the > roughly eighty years since it was first used, we should be able to > come up with something that is better! Well, the instruments aren't the problem; it is the human brain. It has to decide which instrument is lying when it is lying to itself. > > The fact that we are losing airplanes that are equipped with > working attitude gyros tells me that the current attitude gyro is > NOT the answer. Actually I think that the attitude gyro *IS* the answer. It tells you the attitude of the airplane, plain and simple. When all else fails you want to get the airplane straight and level. If the wings are level and the nose is not up or down, the airplane is not going to be doing anything nasty. The real problem is when the AI lies to you. When the AI fails and doesn't tell you that it has failed, you have to rely on secondary indications that it has failed, e.g. if the AI says you are straight and level while the T&B is pinned and the airspeed indicator is rapidly increasing, the AI is lying to you. And you are right that AI's are prone to failure. The iron AI is a complex mechanical device with an MTBF of about 500 hours. Not exactly the thing I want to stake my life on. (In spite of the fact that I have staked my life on such a critter for a long time flying IFR.) Because the AI is more complex than the T&B it is far more likely that the AI will fail than that the T&B will fail. Likewise the airspeed indicator is pretty darned simple and unlikely to fail. That is why people have been trusting them over vertical gyros for a long time. But it is possible to build a vertical gyro that exceeds both the T&B and the ASI in reliability. The current crop of AHRS use solid state rate gyros and solid-state accelerometers that have mean-times between failure (MTBF) measured in hundreds of thousands of hours, not hundreds of hours like our current crop of iron gyros (T&B included). They don't have motors and they don't have bearings. They just aren't likely to break. You have to make sure that your rate gyros are capable of handling the maximum rates of pitch, roll, and yaw that your airplane can achieve, even in departed flight. That is very possible to do. Now you do want to accommodate those times when something does fail. For that you build in triple redundancy. Three AHRS with a voting unit that allows two of the AHRS to override bogus information from the third. At that point you have a system that is so unlikely to fail that you don't need to worry about it anymore. So rather than talking about which iron gyros one wants to have in the panel it is time to think in terms of fail-safe instrumentation now that it is both possible and cost effective to do so. Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630 +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . =97 Antoine de Saint-Exup=E9ry ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 01:34:32 PM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ammeter surge problem --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd On Jun 23, 2006, at 5:25 PM, Gary Liming wrote: > I kind of find it hard to believe that the RF is causing it, but we > are stumped. You are 100% correct in that it is the RF that is causing the problem. You will probably find that the ammeter requires power because it has an amplifier in it to amplify the very small signal from the shunt. This amplifier is being affected by the RF coming from the shunt or from the power lead. Try bypassing the power lead to the ammeter indicator. That will probably solve the problem. Folks: when it comes to troubleshooting RF problems in the cockpit it is hard to beat the ARRL Radio Amateur's Handbook. It has a whole chapter on how to solve problems with RF getting into other electronics. It tells you how to bypass power leads, how to install chokes, etc. It also has all the information you might need to construct your own antennas. Definitely worth the price of admission even if it does now cost about $40. (I paid $4 for my first one in 1962.) http://www.arrl.org/catalog/9485/ Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630 +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . Antoine de Saint-Exupry ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 02:53:21 PM PST US From: FLYaDIVE@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: KT-76C lighting --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com In a message dated 6/24/06 4:25:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, sarg314@comcast.net writes: > However, the pinout on the connector specifies that pin 2 should be > hooked up to the 14v panel light dimmer. Why 2 brightness controls? > Does this input on pin 2 actually power the LED display? Why not just > connect this to +12v and use the front panel feature to control > brightness? If I do hook this up to a dimmer, how much power does it > draw? I can't find any reference to power consumption in the specs. > > Thanks, > -- > Tom Sargent, RV-6A =========================== Tom: The purpose of hooking up the KT-76C to the panel light dimmer is ONLY to have the entire panel light system TURNED ON & OFF from one common point. Once it is On then you can adjust the light intensity on the Xponder as you wish. The only part you or the instructions did not mention is WHERE on the dimmer do you tap off the power? You do want ON & OFF control of the panel lighting BUT as you guessed, if the power tap off is on the adjusted output then if the panel lights are DIM the Xponder lights may be nonexistent. All you really need is common ON - OFF control of the lights for the Xponder. Barry "Chop'd Liver" ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 02:53:22 PM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Disorientation. --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd Sometimes it is best to get back to basics. There is a great deal of both heat and light going on here so I am going to go back to looking at the forest instead of the trees. Bob Nuckolls has been doing a very good job of getting people to think about systems, how they fail, and how to minimize the impact when they fail. I am going to try to use some of his approach in the selection of instrumentation systems. First, we need to ask ourselves some questions: 1. What is most likely to fail? 2. How do I know it has failed? 3. What is the impact on my flight if this fails? I am going to start with the most basic answer to item #1: power. Power for your instruments is the most likely thing to fail. 'Lectric Bob has shown you how to deal with this problem with things that eat electricity. I can't add anything here. OTOH if you have chosen to use air-powered gyros (for God's sake why?) then you need to know how you are going to recognize and deal with that. Backup air supply is a lot more difficult than a backup electrical power supply. Still, it is possible. OK, you have dealt with power and we need to go back up to the top of our list and ask again, what is most likely to fail? I would hold that it is probably our iron AI as that is the least reliable of the gyros. Now the next two questions becomes critical. How do you detect failure of the AI and what impact is that going to have on your operations? The simplest answer I can come up with is: know thy instruments. Get a sim and practice having the thing fail your various gyros and then keep doing it over and over until you know what to expect and how to deal with it. (BTW, set the sim for moderate turbulence as that is what you are going to have when the gyro fails.) I would hold that it is not flying partial-panel that kills people so much as the brain trying to detect the failure of the AI and then transition to partial- panel flying. This transition is much like "continued VFR into IMC." It isn't the same and the rules have just changed. You have to make that mental switch and most people just don't do that very well. You have to practice making that mental switch so that you become comfortable with it. Frankly, the choice of T&B vs. TC has a very small impact when compared to making that mental choice to a) detect instrument failure and, b) change to partial-panel flying. And BTW, having your instructor slap a post-it over the AI and say, "you just lost your AI," does NOT count. He/she has already simplified your decision-making process by making the decision for you. The only way to really get a feel for it is to have it sneak up on you insidiously and that is only going to happen is in a sim or for real. Soon we will have fail-safe gyro panels using multiple solid-state gyros. Right now you can't buy one. Right now no matter what you have you will need to detect and deal with instrument failure regardless of whether it is iron or glass. Figure out how you are going to do that or don't fly IFR. Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630 +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . Antoine de Saint-Exupry ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 03:07:22 PM PST US From: Gary Liming Subject: AeroElectric-List: Ammeter surge problem --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gary Liming I am helping a friend with his RV and he is experiencing a strange problem. When he hits the PTT button with the radio on, the ammeter shows a 30 amp surge! We are trying to figure out why. Here are some relevant facts: 1. The radio works ok - transmission is clear and normal, the antenna is installed and hooked up properly. 2. We put a hand held ammeter in series from the battery positive cable to the battery post, and no such real surge is occurring - all other components (like various lights) are showing a normal current load. The radio shows a 1.3 amp load on receive, and a 3 amp load or so on transmit - consistent with it's specified load rating. 3. The ammeter itself is a shunt type, the standard one that Van's sells. It requires a separate power input to run the meter - I am guessing that there is a circuit in there to compensate for a voltage range across the shunt, but I am guessing about that. (It is not used for internal lighting, that is yet another lead.) The shunt appears to be installed ok. 4. The same ammeter shows normal current consumption for other things like strobes, pos lights, etc. 5. All of this is done using only the aircraft battery. The engine and alternator are not operating yet. I kind of find it hard to believe that the RF is causing it, but we are stumped. Any ideas? TIA, Gary Liming ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 03:18:06 PM PST US From: FLYaDIVE@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Blue Mountain EFIS -Lite Problem --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com Hello my fellow electron chasers: I have a problem, my doctor already knows that but I thought I would share it with you. I just installed a Blue Mountain EFIS-Lite in the panel of an RV-6A. With the engine OFF and MASTER ON I then turn on the EFIS. The unit boots normally and the AI screen comes up. It takes a few seconds and the horizon stabilizes. [I feel it is not stabilizing SOLID the way a vacuum AI would.] Here comes the real problem ... Master ON, EFIS OFF - Normal procedures I start the engine. All the vacuum gages stabilized. I then turn ON the EFIS. The AI NEVER stabilizes there is a slow tumble until I see either nothing but sky or ground. NEVER STABILIZING! Has anyone ever run across this problem and if so what was the cause and cure? It has been suggested that I perform two (2) operations: 1 - Upgrade the Software from Ver 2.21 to Ver 2.64 2 - Hook up the keyboard and do a Warm System reboot from the keyboard What are your thoughts? Does this sound like a cure? Of course the software upgrade is required and will be done. Barry "Chop'd Liver" ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 04:19:09 PM PST US From: Jim Corner Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: CB Size requirements? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jim Corner I too will soon be installing a KX 125 and was able to purchase an installation manual from AC Spruce. The manual recommends a 10 amp fuse as deduced below, and shows a max transmit power consumption of 6 amps. It also recommends power wiring to be 2 #18 AWG wires to the circuit breaker and also 2 #18 wires to ground. What would be the advantage of this over the 12 and 14 AWG being installed by Barry? More resistance to breakage or is there another reason? Jim Corner Kitfox 5 under construction. Kitfox 2 flying On Jun 24, 2006, at 2:04 PM, FLYaDIVE@aol.com wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com > > In a message dated 6/24/06 12:42:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > wjoke@shaw.ca > writes: > >> Typically a 50% extra capacity is added >> to deal with power surges as the transmit cycle begins so if 5 amps >> needed - use 7.5 amps, etc. >> >> The manufacturers are reluctant to widely advertise the installation >> details of their equipment perhaps to encourage buyers to hire the >> dealers who sell the stuff to do the installation as well thus >> sending a >> bit of business their way. So that's why the power supply specs >> are less >> than readily available. The KX-125 specs seem to suggest a 5 watt >> transmitter (RF) power output. Most radios in this range will do >> fine >> with a 10 amp CB so, failing anything else, try that size of CB. >> This >> means sizing the wiring so that it is big enough to pass that >> amount of >> current continuously without harm in the event of a short. A bit of >> oversize on the wiring does no harm and helps reduce voltage drop >> at the >> radio which is a separate issue but related issue when powering a >> device. No harm is done if the wiring will take more current than >> the CB >> will pass as the wire is quite adequately protected by the CB. >> >> Jim Oke >> Wpg., MB >> RV-6A C-GKGZ > ================================ > Jim: > > Thank you for a very realistic answer. I should have phrased my > question > better ... "What is the current draw of a King KX 125?" > > I found that the current draw on a Garmin GNC 250 XL is rated at > 5.5 Amps > during transmit. Of course that also has a moving map and its > additional current > draw. If I subtract 0.5 Amps for the GPS and moving map that > leaves me with > 5.0 Amps. Taking that with a 50% safety margin that puts me right > at 7.5 Amps > ... :-) Good size for a CB. > GOOD SUGGESTION Jim. > > I wired the feed to the Radio Buss with 12 AWG and the Buss itself > with 14 > AWG so I have ample capacity. > > Now here is a follow up question. I don't have much experience > with radar, > but the Xponder only requires a 5 AMP CB; yet the power output of > the unit is > 250 Watts. How come such a low CB? > I'm taking a WAG here, does it have to do with the Duty Cycle of the > transmission? > > Thanks again Jim, > > Barry > "Chop'd Liver" > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 05:38:36 PM PST US From: Charles Brame Subject: AeroElectric-List: PC-680 Revisited --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charles Brame My Odyssey PC-680 has been in my non-flying RV for about three years - most of the time uncharged. It keeps a charge for months, and after topping off, it started a new, cold engine repeatedly with no problems. I'm impressed The nomenclature that came with the PC-680 battery says it as a Dry Cell. I remember an AeroElectric discussion a few years back about lead acid, sealed lead acid, gel cell, and recombinant gas batteries. According to the archives that I found, the PC-680 is described as a Recombinant Gas and/or Sealed Lead Acid battery. I wonder if it really is a dry cell or if that is just a manufacturer's line? I recently bought one of the BB17-12 el-cheapo batteries to power an electric gate. It is the same size and shape as the PC-680 but it is labeled as a valve-regulated, sealed lead acid, rechargeable battery. It seems to work flawlessly, though I don't think I would trust it in my airplane. Charlie Brame RV-6A N11CB San Antonio ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 06:08:37 PM PST US From: Bob White Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: PC-680 Revisited --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Bob White On Sat, 24 Jun 2006 19:32:11 -0500 Charles Brame wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charles Brame > > My Odyssey PC-680 has been in my non-flying RV for about three years > - most of the time uncharged. It keeps a charge for months, and after > topping off, it started a new, cold engine repeatedly with no > problems. I'm impressed > > The nomenclature that came with the PC-680 battery says it as a Dry > Cell. I remember an AeroElectric discussion a few years back about > lead acid, sealed lead acid, gel cell, and recombinant gas batteries. > According to the archives that I found, the PC-680 is described as a > Recombinant Gas and/or Sealed Lead Acid battery. I wonder if it > really is a dry cell or if that is just a manufacturer's line? > > I recently bought one of the BB17-12 el-cheapo batteries to power an > electric gate. It is the same size and shape as the PC-680 but it is > labeled as a valve-regulated, sealed lead acid, rechargeable > battery. It seems to work flawlessly, though I don't think I would > trust it in my airplane. > > Charlie Brame > RV-6A N11CB > San Antonio > > > Hi Charlie, My understanding is that it's called a "dry" cell because if you break the case, acid won't come out. The can be shipped as non-hazardous because of that. These are starved electrolyte or recombinant gas batteries using lead acid chemistry. I have two in my plane and one in my motorcycle. Bob W. -- http://www.bob-white.com N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 (first engine start 1/7/06) Custom Cables for your rotary installation - http://www.roblinphoto.com/shop/ ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 06:19:40 PM PST US From: "Ed Anderson" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: PC-680 Revisited --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ed Anderson" Charles, the Odyssey is actually a "Wet cell". The electrolyte is embedded in a material that is in effect like a cloth soaked in battery acid, so in that sense, the acid will not spill out if you turn it on it's side. So it is sometimes referred to as a "Dry Cell" since it does not leak liquid. Ed ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2006 8:32 PM > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charles Brame > > My Odyssey PC-680 has been in my non-flying RV for about three years - > most of the time uncharged. It keeps a charge for months, and after > topping off, it started a new, cold engine repeatedly with no problems. > I'm impressed > > The nomenclature that came with the PC-680 battery says it as a Dry Cell. > I remember an AeroElectric discussion a few years back about lead acid, > sealed lead acid, gel cell, and recombinant gas batteries. According to > the archives that I found, the PC-680 is described as a Recombinant Gas > and/or Sealed Lead Acid battery. I wonder if it really is a dry cell or > if that is just a manufacturer's line? > > I recently bought one of the BB17-12 el-cheapo batteries to power an > electric gate. It is the same size and shape as the PC-680 but it is > labeled as a valve-regulated, sealed lead acid, rechargeable battery. It > seems to work flawlessly, though I don't think I would trust it in my > airplane. > > Charlie Brame > RV-6A N11CB > San Antonio > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > http://wiki.matronics.com > > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 06:21:20 PM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blue Mountain EFIS -Lite Problem --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd On Jun 24, 2006, at 6:13 PM, FLYaDIVE@aol.com wrote: > Here comes the real problem ... > Master ON, EFIS OFF - Normal procedures I start the engine. > All the vacuum gages stabilized. > I then turn ON the EFIS. > The AI NEVER stabilizes there is a slow tumble until I see either > nothing but > sky or ground. NEVER STABILIZING! Sounds exceedingly broken to me. > Has anyone ever run across this problem and if so what was the > cause and cure? > > It has been suggested that I perform two (2) operations: > 1 - Upgrade the Software from Ver 2.21 to Ver 2.64 > 2 - Hook up the keyboard and do a Warm System reboot from the keyboard > > What are your thoughts? Does this sound like a cure? Of course > the software > upgrade is required and will be done. You know, IMHO no gyro device should ever require the pilot to do anything to make it work right. It should come up and work flawlessly from the moment you turn it on and it erects. But that is just my opinion. It is not the hardware that scares me with glass -- it is the software. Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630 +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . Antoine de Saint-Exupry ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 06:38:26 PM PST US From: "Brett Ferrell" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blue Mountain EFIS -Lite Problem --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Brett Ferrell" Barry, I'd call Greg and the guys and get their opinion. First, the older BMA products need a good GPS fix to get an attitude solution, but this doesn't sound like your problem. It sounds more likely to me that your magnetometer is being affected by a large current near it, which I believe can also cause a poor attitude solution. Does your heading indication wander as well? I have the E/1, and I've never had this sort of issue. Brett ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2006 6:13 PM > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com > > Hello my fellow electron chasers: > > I have a problem, my doctor already knows that but I thought I would share > it > with you. > > I just installed a Blue Mountain EFIS-Lite in the panel of an RV-6A. > With the engine OFF and MASTER ON I then turn on the EFIS. > The unit boots normally and the AI screen comes up. > It takes a few seconds and the horizon stabilizes. > [I feel it is not stabilizing SOLID the way a vacuum AI would.] > Here comes the real problem ... > Master ON, EFIS OFF - Normal procedures I start the engine. > All the vacuum gages stabilized. > I then turn ON the EFIS. > The AI NEVER stabilizes there is a slow tumble until I see either nothing > but > sky or ground. NEVER STABILIZING! > > Has anyone ever run across this problem and if so what was the cause and > cure? > > It has been suggested that I perform two (2) operations: > 1 - Upgrade the Software from Ver 2.21 to Ver 2.64 > 2 - Hook up the keyboard and do a Warm System reboot from the keyboard > > What are your thoughts? Does this sound like a cure? Of course the > software > upgrade is required and will be done. > > Barry > "Chop'd Liver" > > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 07:01:54 PM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: PC-680 Revisited --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd On Jun 24, 2006, at 8:32 PM, Charles Brame wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charles Brame > > > My Odyssey PC-680 has been in my non-flying RV for about three > years - most of the time uncharged. It keeps a charge for months, > and after topping off, it started a new, cold engine repeatedly > with no problems. I'm impressed > > The nomenclature that came with the PC-680 battery says it as a Dry > Cell. I remember an AeroElectric discussion a few years back about > lead acid, sealed lead acid, gel cell, and recombinant gas > batteries. According to the archives that I found, the PC-680 is > described as a Recombinant Gas and/or Sealed Lead Acid battery. I > wonder if it really is a dry cell or if that is just a > manufacturer's line? > > I recently bought one of the BB17-12 el-cheapo batteries to power > an electric gate. It is the same size and shape as the PC-680 but > it is labeled as a valve-regulated, sealed lead acid, rechargeable > battery. It seems to work flawlessly, though I don't think I would > trust it in my airplane. There are a lot of words used to describe these batteries. Here is some nomenclature that might help this make sense: Lead-acid -- describes the chemistry. Electrical energy is stored as a chemical change in lead plates using a sulphuric acid electrolyte. All of the batteries we use in our airplanes are lead-acid unless they are NiCd. sealed lead-acid -- you can't add water to it. AGM -- absorbed glass mat. The liquid acid electrolyte is held between the plates by capillary action in a thin fiberglass mat so you don't need a lot of electrolyte. Since there is no free electrolyte to slosh around you can use it in any position. (Imagine water held in a paper towel if you want to get an idea of what I mean.) starved electrolyte -- AGM. "Dry" lead-acid or "dry cell" -- starved electrolyte or AGM. Gel-cell -- the sulphuric acid electrolyte is mixed with a binder that turns it into something like Jello. This keeps it between the plates and it can't slosh around. You can use these in any position. Recombinant gas or RG -- this means that the excess hydrogen and oxygen that would be allowed to bubble away at the end of the charge cycle are made to recombine back into water at the plate. This keeps you from having to add water as it doesn't escape into the atmosphere like a typical "wet" battery but stays in the battery. Both AGM and Gel-cell batteries are RG batteries. Valve regulated, valve regulated lead-acid, or VRLA -- If you overcharge an RG battery it will produce H2 and O2 faster than they can recombine. The result is excess gas trapped in the cell. If the overcharge is removed and the battery left to its own devices the H2 and O2 will eventually recombine. If the overcharge is allowed to continue the pressure in the cell continues to rise. Each cell has a pop-off valve that will relieve the pressure before the case bursts. The only problem is, if this happens the water that is needed inside the battery escapes into the atmosphere and now you have shortened the life and capacity of the battery. As far as I have been able to learn, all AGM and gel-cell batteries are VRLA batteries. There are two big differences between AGM and gel-cell batteries: 1. They need different charging and float voltages. Gel-cells like about 13.8V for charge and about 13.4V for float (charger applied all the time to keep the battery maintained at full charge). Flooded cell batteries and AGMs like about 14.2V for charge but only about 13.2V for float. (These numbers are for a temperature of 20C. The voltages need to be decreased as the temperature rises or increased if the temps are cold.) 2. AGMs are *great* for delivering a LOT of current from a relatively small cell. This makes them great for starting engines. Gel-cells are not as good for delivering a lot of current but will give you more charge/discharge cycles in deep cycle usage. In all probability you want an AGM battery for your airplane but only if you are taking care to prevent overcharge. So you want to know whether the battery is AGM or gel-cell. Just having someone tell you VRLA or "sealed" doesn't tell you much. With regard to overcharge: neither AGMs nor gel-cells will tolerate overcharge very well. It kills them pretty quickly. One interesting thing is that you can split the difference between charge and float voltages on a gel-cell and still get good service but need only one voltage. You can't do that very well with an AGM battery. OTOH flooded cells handle overcharge pretty well. It just makes them bubble and give off H2 and O2 gas. As long as you don't overheat the battery with a gross overcharge you fix the overcharge by adding more water. So the "el-cheapo" battery you have and the PC-680 are both "valve regulated, sealed lead-acid, rechargeable" batteries. In all probability both are AGMs as well. I am sure your "el-cheap" battery would work just fine in your airplane too. Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630 +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . Antoine de Saint-Exupry ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 08:21:57 PM PST US From: FLYaDIVE@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blue Mountain EFIS -Lite Problem --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com In a message dated 6/24/06 9:43:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bferrell@123mail.net writes: > Barry, > > I'd call Greg and the guys and get their opinion. First, the older BMA > products need a good GPS fix to get an attitude solution, but this doesn't > sound like your problem. It sounds more likely to me that your magnetometer > > is being affected by a large current near it, which I believe can also cause > > a poor attitude solution. Does your heading indication wander as well? I > have the E/1, and I've never had this sort of issue. > > Brett > ========================== Brett: I have tried the unit with and without the magnetometer hooked up. Same results! The BALL does not wander and the DG is stable. I do have to make a better mount for the magnetometer, yet I don't believe that is the problem or what is affecting the AI part of the unit. At BMA, Larry suggested two steps: 1 - Upgrade the software and 2 - Do the warm reboot with the keyboard. Then if it still does not erect call him back. Barry "Chop'd Liver"