Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:09 AM - Re: Alternator failure. Info provided (FLYaDIVE@aol.com)
2. 01:31 AM - Re: Is there a color code convention for intercom wiring? (FLYaDIVE@aol.com)
3. 01:41 AM - Re: Re: Alternator Field Switch (FLYaDIVE@aol.com)
4. 02:53 AM - Re: Alternator failure. Info provided (Brian Lloyd)
5. 03:12 AM - Re: Re: Alternator Field Switch (Brian Lloyd)
6. 03:34 AM - Software in the cockpit (Fox5flyer)
7. 04:56 AM - Re: Alternator failure. Info provided (Dale Ensing)
8. 05:24 AM - Re: Alternator failure. Info provided (FLYaDIVE@aol.com)
9. 05:31 AM - Re: Alternator failure. Info provided (FLYaDIVE@aol.com)
10. 05:37 AM - Instrument lighting (Jerry & Ledy Esquenazi)
11. 06:02 AM - Re: Instrument lighting (Ken)
12. 06:39 AM - Re: Alternator failure. Info provided (Hopperdhh@aol.com)
13. 06:40 AM - Re: Is there a color code convention for (Charlie Kuss)
14. 07:07 AM - Re: Alternator failure. Info provided (Charlie Kuss)
15. 07:18 AM - Re: Alternator failure. Info provided (FLYaDIVE@aol.com)
16. 07:34 AM - Re: Alternator failure. Info provided (Brian Lloyd)
17. 07:34 AM - Re: Alternator failure. Info provided (FLYaDIVE@aol.com)
18. 07:41 AM - Re: Instrument lighting (Charlie Kuss)
19. 08:04 AM - Re: Alternator failure. Info provided (Tom & Cathy Ervin)
20. 11:42 AM - Re: Alternator failure. Info provided (Brinker)
21. 02:00 PM - Re: Alternator failure. Info provided (Brian Lloyd)
22. 03:53 PM - Re: Alternator failure. Info provided ()
23. 04:07 PM - Re: Re: Alternator Field Switch (William Slaughter)
24. 05:06 PM - Re: Alternator failure. Info provided (B&C value, reliability?) ()
25. 05:40 PM - Re: Instrument lighting (David Carter)
26. 06:21 PM - Re: Re: Alternator failure. Info provided (B&C value, reliability?) (Kevin Horton)
27. 07:08 PM - Re: Re: Alternator failure. Info provided (B&C value, reliability?) (Terry Watson)
28. 08:33 PM - Re: Re: Alternator failure. Info provided (B&C value, reli... (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
29. 09:36 PM - Re: Instrument lighting (bob noffs)
30. 10:07 PM - Re: Re: Alternator failure. Info provided (B&C value, reli... (Steven DiNieri)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator failure. Info provided |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com
In a message dated 6/29/06 7:08:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mstewart@iss.net
writes:
>
> I really need the failure rate of the B&C now to make a comparison.
>
> Mike
===================================
Mike:
No, what you really need to do is stop being a bean counting manager and
become an engineer and look at the installation. The variable in the equation
is
NOT the alternator but the installation. Alternators come off the assembly
line much faster, for more planes and with much tighter tolerances than the
planes do.
LQQK at what is failing and why. The problems I see and I have seen a lot,
way more than 2 planes; is the install.
Belts too tight
Belts too loose
Alignment of the alternator sheave to the ring gear out of whack
Wrong Belts being used - There is a difference in 'V' grove between aviation
and automotive.
Belts not seating properly in the sheave
Alternator not mounted secure - Too much vibration
Cracked alternator mounts
Cracked alternator tension brackets
Improper nuts & bolts used - Course thread Vs fine thread
Ridiculous stacking of washers in attempts to align alternator with ring gear
Bracket mounting bolts not torque correctly
No safety tabs on mounting bolts
No safety wire on tension bracket bolts
Safety wire installed incorrectly
OVER torquing of Field and B+ nuts
No securing method on alternator bells
Improper wire length and No service loop on alternator wires
POOR electrical grounds on the entire engine and plane
So, you can see, you have to LQQK at the entire picture and not micro manage
one device.
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
QA/QA Manager
SPC
Q1
ISO 9001
Tech Sales Engineering
A&P
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Is there a color code convention for intercom wiring? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com
In a message dated 6/29/06 5:35:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
chaztuna@adelphia.net writes:
> I had planned to use one color style to wire the microphone jacks and the
> other color style to wire the headphone jacks. I feel that this will aid in
> avoiding confusion for future troubleshooting.
> Charlie Kuss
==========================
Charlie:
The colors are your choice.
But, the Mic cable should have 3 wires and a shield and the Phone cable
should have 2 wires and a shield. Kind of hard to mix that up.
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator Field Switch |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com
In a message dated 6/29/06 7:23:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
endspeed@yahoo.com writes:
> Is there a reason to have a field switch?
>
>
> Bob Sultzbach
============================
Bob:
There are two reasons for a Field Switch:
1 - To isolate the alternator from the electrical system.
This is helpful in diagnosing a problem and when the ACU goes off line and
you want it to cool and reset.
2 - In case of an electrical fire.
There are also some not as relevant reasons:
Voltage spikes when starting
Reducing load on the starting of the engine
Control of the alternator or alternators
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator failure. Info provided |
On Jun 30, 2006, at 3:59 AM, FLYaDIVE@aol.com wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com
>
> In a message dated 6/29/06 7:08:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> mstewart@iss.net
> writes:
>
>>
>> I really need the failure rate of the B&C now to make a comparison.
>>
>> Mike
> ========================
===========
> Mike:
>
> No, what you really need to do is stop being a bean counting
> manager and
> become an engineer and look at the installation. The variable in
> the equation is
> NOT the alternator but the installation. Alternators come off the
> assembly
> line much faster, for more planes and with much tighter tolerances
> than the
> planes do.
Your points about installation are well taken and should be heeded by
all those using automotive alternators.
OTOH, what Mike said was that the stator was fried. That is what
happens to an alternator operated too close to its maximum current
rating. Automotive alternators, unless they are "hot rated", cannot
operate anywhere near their ratings without self-destructing. This is
a failure mode that occurs all the time with boats where the
alternator is called upon too recharge the deep-cycle battery bank.
It also happens all the time in cars that have megawatt stereo
systems that draw huge amounts of power from the electrical system.
How do I know about this? Well, I became really good friends with the
guy who rebuilds alternators in the Virgin Islands as I was a member
of the "stator of the month" club. He was very up front about not
providing a warrantee on rebuilt automotive alternators to boats with
big battery banks (me) or people with big stereos in their cars. In
fact, I keep a couple of stators in my spares kit. (I got so I could
change a stator in about an hour including removal and reinstallation
of the alternator on the engine.) I learned to be careful to monitor
current output and alternator temperature to minimize failure.
The solution is simple: if you are using an automotive alternator
that is not explicitly designed to operate near its rated output (hot
rated), make sure your average current consumption is below 50% of
the rated output of the alternator. 50A alternator? Don't design your
electrical system to require more than 25A under normal, continuous
operation. Intermittent loads like landing lights (unless you leave
them on all the time), gear retraction systems, comm radios while
transmitting, etc., are not the problem as you only use them for
short periods of time. Everything else that gets turned on and left
on counts.
I know that Bob recommends keeping the load on the alternator below
80% of max rating but IMHO that is not conservative enough for most
automotive alternators. (Maybe it is if you have really good cooling.)
The bottom line is that, regardless of proper installation,
alternators can and will self destruct if operated at their rated
output. Only those that are "hot rated", i.e. have their output
specified at a higher operating temperature, usually something like
100C, will be able to deliver their max output under continuous load
conditions.
Oh, and hot-rated alternators cost more.
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
=97 Antoine de Saint-Exup=E9ry
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator Field Switch |
On Jun 30, 2006, at 4:38 AM, FLYaDIVE@aol.com wrote:
> There are also some not as relevant reasons:
> Voltage spikes when starting
> Reducing load on the starting of the engine
> Control of the alternator or alternators
I don't really want to pick a fight but these wives' tales seem to
persist: voltage "spikes" and engine load when starting. I have
certainly seen low voltage caused by starter load but I just don't
know where voltage "spikes" would come from. Likewise, the load from
the alternator on an engine turning at 150-200 RPM during cranking is
inconsequential as the alternator is not turning fast enough to
produce an output above battery voltage so it is delivering no
current and hence placing no load on the engine. The only load the
alternator places are frictional loads, and those exist whether the
field is active or not, and the slightly extra battery drain of 2 or
3 amps to excite the field.
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
=97 Antoine de Saint-Exup=E9ry
Message 6
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| Subject: | Software in the cockpit |
I know this is way off list parameters, but from an operators
standpoint, having had pretty much everything since the Commodore 64 in
the mid 80s, I just don't understand all this about the problems with
Windows. Even though it's a bit bulky, XP has operated flawlessly for
me since it first hit the streets. What exactly is it about it that's
so bad? No, I'm not a dealer, geek, nor even a loyalist. Just curious.
Thanks,
Deke
I suspected that was probably the case. Windows NT had a lot of
promise in the beginning. (It was originally written by IBM and not
Microsoft. Originally it was called OS2.) The basic microkernel
architecture is a good one in that it embodies the concept I was
espousing -- small, simple, and testable modules that have well
defined interfaces with little interaction. I have worked with
several and prefer them to monolithic kernels like Linux. But any
good thing can be made bad as Windows XP demonstrates.
> The kernel (I thinks it's even 3.51) is quite stable as it has only
> basic functionality and it is tested out also very well as well as
> used in many other processor driven parts. What is full of bugs is
> the overhead put on top, so I would (even if I'm not a Gates fan)
> trust on that product, as well as it was done from Apollo which
> have a very good reputation.
I agree. I was just joking about the MX-20. (I should have put in a
smilie in my original post.) It seems to be a reliable device.
It is interesting to see that the kind of problem we were talking
about, i.e. "creeping featurism" increasing complexity and reducing
reliability, has struck the certified EFIS world. The Garmin 1000 has
been struck with a plethora of software updates reminiscent of
Windows. A couple of avionics shops I have spoken/dealt with have
complained to me of the problems they have had with that unit. This
brings us back to the original discussion about the desirability of
dedicated devices with clearly defined and straightforward
functionality.
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator failure. Info provided |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dale Ensing" <densing@carolina.rr.com>
No securing method on alternator bells
What are alternator bells?
Dale
do not archive
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator failure. Info provided |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com
In a message dated 6/30/06 5:57:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
brian-yak@lloyd.com writes:
> OTOH, what Mike said was that the stator was fried. That is what
> happens to an alternator operated too close to its maximum current
> rating. Automotive alternators, unless they are "hot rated", cannot
> operate anywhere near their ratings without self-destructing.
====================================
Brian:
Someone is feeding you a bunch of bunk!
DON'T SPREAD THE BUNK!
Hot rated ... MADE UP NONSENSE!
The same companies that make automotive alternators make aircraft
alternators. For example:
1972 Ford Pickup with A/C (61 amp), as this is what the DOFF-xxxxx P/N
crosses to in the Ford books.
DOFF-10300J AL12-F60 <- FULL P/N
The ONLY difference is the NAME PLATE.
I have taken both plane and car alternators, disconnected the regulator and
ran them with a variable load and up to 5000 RPM. I was able to get 107 Amps
out of a 60 Amp Alternator. Sure it got hot, but it did not fail. ALL
alternators are under rated. They have to be if you expect them to work. Keeping
the LOAD at 80% of the source is just GOOD design practices. Just because a
wire can handle 15 Amps does not mean you run it at 15 Amps.
What is common between plane and boats is VIBRATION. How does a Stator fail?
From Vibration. The stator is basically a SOLID unit. It does not fail ...
The bearings and the bell fail Because of Vibration, which causes the stator
to go off center and usually destroying the brushes and field coil. I have
NEVER seen a stator fail that did not involve the bearings or bell.
As far as auto Vs plane alternators ... Give me a NEW auto type any day.
They keep up with technology.
Don't believe it? Look at the smaller size and higher output that we have
today. Other than big business using data such as MTBF to set up a warranty
program ... YES, they reduce the quality of the components to keep operational
times just a farts breath longer than the warranty period. THAT is why I do not
rebuild with OEM parts.
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator failure. Info provided |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com
In a message dated 6/30/06 8:00:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
densing@carolina.rr.com writes:
> No securing method on alternator bells
>
> What are alternator bells?
> Dale
==============================
Dale:
Good question, you are the only one to ask.
Motors, alternators and even starters have bells. They are also called END
BELL. They are the front and rear housing that support the bearings. They got
their name from the old steel motors. When they are removed from the rest of
the housing and struck with a hammer they RING like a bell. Today aluminum
has replaced the steel end bells, both for lightness and heat transfer, as well
as production cost.
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
Message 10
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| Subject: | Instrument lighting |
Hey Guys,
I have a simple problem that most likely has a simple solution. The
solution, however, eludes me. I have an internally lit g-meter on my
instrument panel (Don't ask me why :-)). The g-meter's lighting is
internal to the instrument, i.e. it's not a lighting tray that is
screwed to the top. The instrument would have to be opened up to get to
the lamp.
I purchased the g-meter from Chief a while back ago, and when I
received it, I realized it was a 5v unit. Chief didn't have any other
lighting option listed or available. I thought about dropping the
voltage with a resistor. Before doing this I called the manufacturer
Wultrad (aka Falcon Gauge). They said they had a 12v unit in stock that
they could swap for mine. I thought... "great problem solved." They
shipped me one back with a 12v label over the original label. In
testing my instrument panel lighting, I discovered that the g-meter is
considerably brighter than the other instruments to the point it would
be annoying at night. The interesting thing is the light is nice and
white and very uniform though out the face of the instrument. Anyway, I
thought... "gee I'm back to putting in a resistor to dim the light!"
"OK, no problem. I'll figure out what size resistor I need and move
on," I thought. The problem is the resistance of any incandescent lamp
changes whether it hot or cold. The lamp is drawing 0.56 A at 12.0 v.
Seem's like a lot to me. From that I deduced the lamp's resistance at
21.3 ohm. The problem is that when I figure out what size resistor I
need to get say a 7 or 8 v voltage drop across the lamp and add that
resistor to the circuit, the current changes and so does the resistance
of the lamp. So how does one figure this stuff out? I decided to
purchase a potentiometer and install it in my circuit, adjust it 'till I
got the brightness I wanted and then measure the resistance of the pot.
In doing this I began to smell smoke, the little pot was beginning to
glow red as I dimmed down the light in the instrument. I went back and
purchased a heavier pot. This did the trick. I decided a 20 ohm
resistor in series would be perfect. I purchased a 22 ohm, 2 W
resistor, temporarily installed it, and the light was perfect. The
problem was I was still smelling that familiar acrid smell. I had a 7.4
v drop across the resistor and a .34 A current giving me 2.5 W to
dissipate. I later tried two 10 ohm, 2 W resistors in series. Still,
they got too hot. I purchased a ceramic 22 ohm, 5 W resistor and it
still got too hot to touch. The small battery I was using for testing
was putting out 12.2 v under the load. I had a 7.4 v drop across the
resistor, So I deduced I must be getting a 4.8 v drop across the lamp.
The light was just right. I wonder if I still have a 5v lamp inside the
instrument! I measured 0.34 A in the circuit. The 5 W resistor ought
to be handling the 2.5 W I need to dissipate just fine. Something is
wrong. Do any of you smart guys know what I'm doing wrong?
Jerry
"Smelling smoke in Georgia"
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Instrument lighting |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
Hi Jerry
I'd say you did it all correctly but you are just surprised at how much
the 2.5 watts heats up a resistor. A 5 watt bulb is about what
incandescent children's night lights are and does seem ridiculous for an
instrument so I agree that is is the wrong bulb. I would leave it as is
with your resistor. Second choice would be change the bulb to one that
is really 12 volts. Third choice is a variable duty cycle circuit that
pulses short 12 volt pulses to the lamp so that it averages the same
power as running it on 5 volts. That avoids heating up a resistor and
dumping the 2.5 watts but I doubt it is worth the trouble. Fourth choice
is kind of silly but if you had another similar instrument you could
wire them is series...
Ken
Jerry & Ledy Esquenazi wrote:
> Hey Guys,
> I have a simple problem that most likely has a simple solution.
> The solution, however, eludes me. I have an internally lit g-meter on
> my instrument panel (Don't ask me why :-)). The g-meter's lighting is
> internal to the instrument, i.e. it's not a lighting tray that is
> screwed to the top. The instrument would have to be opened up to get
> to the lamp.
>
> I purchased the g-meter from Chief a while back ago, and when I
> received it, I realized it was a 5v unit. Chief didn't have any other
> lighting option listed or available. I thought about dropping the
> voltage with a resistor. Before doing this I called the manufacturer
> Wultrad (aka Falcon Gauge). They said they had a 12v unit in stock
> that they could swap for mine. I thought... "great problem solved."
> They shipped me one back with a 12v label over the original label. In
> testing my instrument panel lighting, I discovered that the g-meter is
> considerably brighter than the other instruments to the point it would
> be annoying at night. The interesting thing is the light is nice and
> white and very uniform though out the face of the instrument. Anyway,
> I thought... "gee I'm back to putting in a resistor to dim the light!"
>
> "OK, no problem. I'll figure out what size resistor I need and
> move on," I thought. The problem is the resistance of any
> incandescent lamp changes whether it hot or cold. The lamp is drawing
> 0.56 A at 12.0 v. Seem's like a lot to me. From that I deduced the
> lamp's resistance at 21.3 ohm. The problem is that when I figure out
> what size resistor I need to get say a 7 or 8 v voltage drop across
> the lamp and add that resistor to the circuit, the current changes and
> so does the resistance of the lamp. So how does one figure this stuff
> out? I decided to purchase a potentiometer and install it in my
> circuit, adjust it 'till I got the brightness I wanted and then
> measure the resistance of the pot. In doing this I began to smell
> smoke, the little pot was beginning to glow red as I dimmed down the
> light in the instrument. I went back and purchased a heavier pot.
> This did the trick. I decided a 20 ohm resistor in series would be
> perfect. I purchased a 22 ohm, 2 W resistor, temporarily installed
> it, and the light was perfect. The problem was I was still smelling
> that familiar acrid smell. I had a 7.4 v drop across the resistor and
> a .34 A current giving me 2.5 W to dissipate. I later tried two 10
> ohm, 2 W resistors in series. Still, they got too hot. I purchased a
> ceramic 22 ohm, 5 W resistor and it still got too hot to touch. The
> small battery I was using for testing was putting out 12.2 v under the
> load. I had a 7.4 v drop across the resistor, So I deduced I must be
> getting a 4.8 v drop across the lamp. The light was just right. I
> wonder if I still have a 5v lamp inside the instrument! I measured
> 0.34 A in the circuit. The 5 W resistor ought to be handling the 2.5
> W I need to dissipate just fine. Something is wrong. Do any of you
> smart guys know what I'm doing wrong?
>
> Jerry
> "Smelling smoke in Georgia"
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator failure. Info provided |
Barry,
Your list of failure modes is certainly extensive and all are installation
related, and I agree with each and every one. However, I noticed that none of
the failures that you have seen were caused by overheating. Even if the
installation is perfect in every respect and there is not enough cooling air
brought to the alternator, it will certainly fail. A fan is very desirable, if
not essential. It is possible that a properly installed blast tube could do
the job, but keep in mind that it should provide as much airflow as the fan
originally did.
I worked with alternators back in the sixties. Actually I was on the design
team that built the first regulators that were put inside the alternator.
The first application was the 1968 Pontiac Gran Prix (when the Gran Prix was
the top of the line). I learned then that alternators can run at 100 percent
output for hours on end at underhood temperatures (125 degrees C or 257
degrees F ambient) -- with a fan. The current output is higher at first when
the
stator winding is cool, and then drops off to the rated current as it heats
up. Increasing the voltage causes the current to go up due to increased field
current. At that time at least, alternators were rated conservatively and a
65 amp alternator (twice the output of a typical generator of the time)
would self limit at 65 amps -- plus or minus a few percent depending on the exact
temperature and voltage. But it would never destroy itself. Exceptions to
this would be if the cooling air were blocked off or if the fan were not
present.
Any copper wire will fry (burn up the insulation) if it gets too hot. Blow
some air on it and it will run cooler at the same current. Almost any
failure mode will be less at a lower temperature.
Dan Hopper
RV-7A
In a message dated 6/30/2006 4:13:36 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
FLYaDIVE@aol.com writes:
LQQK at what is failing and why. The problems I see and I have seen a lot,
way more than 2 planes; is the install.
Belts too tight
Belts too loose
Alignment of the alternator sheave to the ring gear out of whack
Wrong Belts being used - There is a difference in 'V' grove between aviation
and automotive.
Belts not seating properly in the sheave
Alternator not mounted secure - Too much vibration
Cracked alternator mounts
Cracked alternator tension brackets
Improper nuts & bolts used - Course thread Vs fine thread
Ridiculous stacking of washers in attempts to align alternator with ring gear
Bracket mounting bolts not torque correctly
No safety tabs on mounting bolts
No safety wire on tension bracket bolts
Safety wire installed incorrectly
OVER torquing of Field and B+ nuts
No securing method on alternator bells
Improper wire length and No service loop on alternator wires
POOR electrical grounds on the entire engine and plane
So, you can see, you have to LQQK at the entire picture and not micro manage
one device.
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
QA/QA Manager
SPC
Q1
ISO 9001
Tech Sales Engineering
A&P
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Is there a color code convention for |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss <chaztuna@adelphia.net>
> > I had planned to use one color style to wire the microphone jacks and the
> > other color style to wire the headphone jacks. I feel that this
> will aid in
> > avoiding confusion for future troubleshooting.
> > Charlie Kuss
>==========================
>Charlie:
>
>The colors are your choice.
>But, the Mic cable should have 3 wires and a shield and the Phone cable
>should have 2 wires and a shield. Kind of hard to mix that up.
>
>Barry
>"Chop'd Liver"
Barry,
For a mono intercom, you are correct. However, I clearly stated
that this is a STEREO intercom. (You snipped this part of my original
post out of your reply) . The headphone jacks also have 3 wires.
(Pilot & Co-Pilot mics have 3 wires. Passenger mics have 2 wires) I
like Rick Lindstrom's idea of using the "Red is Right" rule. This is
a common convention with home and car stereo equipment.
Blue is closer to Black (normal ground color) than yellow or red,
so that seems like a good color for ground. Yellow, being odd man
out, gets to be the left channel.
I'll use this color coding unless someone knows of a definitive
aviation convention.
Charlie Kuss
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator failure. Info provided |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss <chaztuna@adelphia.net>
>snipped
>Brian:
>
>Someone is feeding you a bunch of bunk!
>DON'T SPREAD THE BUNK!
>Hot rated ... MADE UP NONSENSE!
>snipped
>As far as auto Vs plane alternators ... Give me a NEW auto type any day.
>They keep up with technology.
>Don't believe it? Look at the smaller size and higher output that we have
>today. Other than big business using data such as MTBF to set up a warranty
>program ... YES, they reduce the quality of the components to keep
>operational
>times just a farts breath longer than the warranty period. THAT is
>why I do not
>rebuild with OEM parts.
Barry,
I work on auto electrical systems every day. I take exception with
your opinion that OEM parts are all junk. Some manufacturers have cut
back on parts quality. They are used in by only certain
manufacturers. They are the ones you hear being on the verge of
bankruptcy on the TV news.
Nippon Denso is not one of them. ND electrical parts are extremely
reliable, as are ND factory remanufactured. My experience is that the
re-mans sold by discount auto stores like Advance Auto Parts and Pep
Boys use much lower quality components in their remanufactured parts.
Sure, they offer life time warranties. What do they care? Their unit
costs are very low (thanks to using cheap parts and labor). In
addition, they aren't the ones doing the labor twice (or more).
As a professional auto mechanic, using poor quality parts is bad
business for me. I only get paid once. My customer wants the repair
done correctly the first time. If the repair fails, I get to fix it
again for free the second time. Add to that, customer ill will, and
it adds up to a losing proposition for me. Having an electrical
component fail away from home gets expensive for all of us, as
aircraft owners. Loss of time gets expensive, if you have to pay for
overnight shipping, or worse, a rental car and a motel room.
Buy B&C Specialties or purchase from an auto parts source. Just
make sure you get high quality parts. You can't go wrong with genuine ND parts.
Charlie Kuss
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator failure. Info provided |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com
In a message dated 6/30/06 9:41:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
Hopperdhh@aol.com writes:
> Blow
> some air on it and it will run cooler at the same current. Almost any
> failure mode will be less at a lower temperature.
>
> Dan Hopper
> RV-7A
=================================
Dan:
You are 100% correct. Cooling is very essential and I did forget to mention
that. AND I should have know better, just last year a new alternator (Nippon)
in an RV-6A failed for lack of cooling. I added a blast tube and haven't had
a problem since.
Thanks for adding to the list.
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator failure. Info provided |
On Jun 30, 2006, at 8:18 AM, FLYaDIVE@aol.com wrote:
> Brian:
>
> Someone is feeding you a bunch of bunk!
Uh, no.
> DON'T SPREAD THE BUNK!
> Hot rated ... MADE UP NONSENSE!
Uh, no. Please do your homework. I have.
> The same companies that make automotive alternators make aircraft
> alternators. For example:
> 1972 Ford Pickup with A/C (61 amp), as this is what the DOFF-xxxxx P/N
> crosses to in the Ford books.
> DOFF-10300J AL12-F60 <- FULL P/N
>
> The ONLY difference is the NAME PLATE.
Perhaps. Having taken a few apart to fix them I have seen
differences. But in general I agree that there really aren't many
differences between automotive and aviation alternators.
Where you do see differences is when you get to alternators that have
been designed to operate at higher output and higher temperatures.
These are not alternators that you normally find in automotive or
aviation use. Sometimes they use the same case but usually they have
high-temp bearings, better cooling fans, and radically different
stators.
The big difference is in the stator. I have seen two approaches to
high-output and hot-rated stators. One approach is to triple-wind the
stator where each stator winding actually consists of three windings
in parallel on the same core. The other approach is to just use much
larger wire in the stator. Both approaches reduce I*R losses and its
concomitant temperature rise.
> I have taken both plane and car alternators, disconnected the
> regulator and
> ran them with a variable load and up to 5000 RPM. I was able to
> get 107 Amps
> out of a 60 Amp Alternator. Sure it got hot, but it did not fail.
> ALL
> alternators are under rated. They have to be if you expect them to
> work. Keeping
> the LOAD at 80% of the source is just GOOD design practices. Just
> because a
> wire can handle 15 Amps does not mean you run it at 15 Amps.
Sure you can get a lot of output out of them for a little while. But
you have massive I*R losses in the stator. It gets HOT! If you
continue to pull a lot of amps from the alternator the stator gets
hot enough to burn through its insulation. At that point the stator
fails and the point is moot. As someone who has personally repaired
many alternators with fried stators I can attest to what is
happening. I speak from multiple occurrences of personal experience
-- the standard automotive alternator is incapable of sustained
operation at its "rated" output without burning up its stator. You
can increase the life with better cooling (good idea) or you can
reduce the I*R losses so that less of the current is turned into heat
in the alternator.
> What is common between plane and boats is VIBRATION. How does a
> Stator fail?
> =46rom Vibration. The stator is basically a SOLID unit. It does not
> fail ...
You bet your sweet patootie it fails. Burns right up. Insulation is
ash. Smells bad too.
> The bearings and the bell fail Because of Vibration, which causes
> the stator
> to go off center and usually destroying the brushes and field
> coil. I have
> NEVER seen a stator fail that did not involve the bearings or bell.
I have. Many times. It is a common occurrence. I have fixed them. I
spent hours looking at failed alternators in an alternator repair
shop to try to figure out ways to make them not fail.
One interesting way to do it is what I ended up doing on my boat. My
regulator has a duty-cycle limit for the field. The field current is
either on or off and the alternator output is controlled by the duty
cycle of the field, i.e. on vs. off time of the field current. When
more output is needed the field current stays on a longer proportion
of the time. (BTW, this is how all internally-regulated alternators
work.) The inductance of the field averages out the magnetic field so
you get a smooth output. What happens when you have a really big load
at the limit of the alternator's capacity is that the field goes on
and stays on. Now the output of the alternator is limited by the I*R
losses in the stator. My regulator has a maximum duty cycle
adjustment. If I set it for 80% it won't let the field current stay
on more than 80% of the time. Since I dropped the duty cycle to a
maximum of 60% and improved alternator cooling I haven't had to
replace a stator.
Now this is not really apropos to aviation because you are rarely
trying to charge a 1000 amp-hour battery bank like I am on my boat.
When that battery is low it can sink hundreds of amps during charge.
(I limit my charge current to 100A but then it will take most of the
day to charge if the battery bank is really low.) The alternator is
running at 100% output for long periods of time. It will burn itself
up if it isn't really designed to handle 100% output.
You are right about vibration. It happens. You can improve things by
balancing the rotor and putting in beefier bearings (preferably ones
with a higher temperature rating too). BTW, the bearings also fail
from the heat.
> As far as auto Vs plane alternators ... Give me a NEW auto type any
> day.
> They keep up with technology.
> Don't believe it? Look at the smaller size and higher output that
> we have
> today. Other than big business using data such as MTBF to set up a
> warranty
> program ... YES, they reduce the quality of the components to keep
> operational
> times just a farts breath longer than the warranty period. THAT is
> why I do not
> rebuild with OEM parts.
I suggest you look at hot-rated alternators from various sources. I
recommend looking at Ample Power, Balmar, etc. to see what they do to
make the alternator a true 100% duty-cycle device.
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
=97 Antoine de Saint-Exup=E9ry
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator failure. Info provided |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com
In a message dated 6/30/06 10:09:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
chaztuna@adelphia.net writes:
> Barry,
> I work on auto electrical systems every day. I take exception with
> your opinion that OEM parts are all junk. Some manufacturers have cut
> back on parts quality. They are used in by only certain
> manufacturers. They are the ones you hear being on the verge of
> bankruptcy on the TV news.
=================================
Charlie:
You are correct, I use to do QA/QC & SPC for the manufacture you are talking
about. And I can give you a case in point:
As an auto mechanic have you ever noticed that the ORIGINAL sepertine Belt or
the ORIGINAL timing belts always last longer? They tell you to replace them
at 60,000 miles but many original belts go 80,000 to 90,000 miles! That is
original FACTORY installed equipment. Not necessarily OEM that is sold over the
counter at dealers. So, when you purchase the Dealer OEM you never seem to
get the same life? Remember FORD with the Dual Spark Plugs per cylinder; just
like our planes? Well, they have SPECIAL FACTORY spark plugs. You would get
the life and gas milage with the Factory installed ones, but not with the
Dealer OEM. It was done this way to meet warrenty and government requirements.
Yet the requirements only had to last untill the warrenty was up.
The saying on the wall was: "If you can't design in controlled failure, you
have to design out longevity."
Why do you think MTBF became important?
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Instrument lighting |
Jerry,
I think that Ken's third suggestion is the best for your problem. A
nice, inexpensive circuit for accomplishing this can be purchased
below. FYI, this unit can be used to control a defroster fan motor,
slow down electric trim servos or act as you wish to use it, to dim lights.
http://www.mpja.com/productview.asp?product=4057+MD
For your purpose, the reversing slide switch can be eliminated. I've
built a number of these units. I'm using them for defrost fan speed
control, MAC trim servo speed reducers and for panel light dimming.
They are a lot cheaper than other items sold for these purposes. In
addition, if I carry one spare unit, I can use it to replace a number
of failed control devices. Heck, if it fails, I can simply go to
Radio Shack and buy a replacement diode/resistor/capacitor to repair it.
Charlie Kuss
>Hey Guys,
> I have a simple problem that most likely has a simple
> solution. The solution, however, eludes me. I have an internally
> lit g-meter on my instrument panel (Don't ask me why :-)). The
> g-meter's lighting is internal to the instrument, i.e. it's not a
> lighting tray that is screwed to the top. The instrument would
> have to be opened up to get to the lamp.
>
> I purchased the g-meter from Chief a while back ago, and when I
> received it, I realized it was a 5v unit. Chief didn't have any
> other lighting option listed or available. I thought about
> dropping the voltage with a resistor. Before doing this I called
> the manufacturer Wultrad (aka Falcon Gauge). They said they had a
> 12v unit in stock that they could swap for mine. I thought...
> "great problem solved." They shipped me one back with a 12v label
> over the original label. In testing my instrument panel lighting,
> I discovered that the g-meter is considerably brighter than the
> other instruments to the point it would be annoying at night. The
> interesting thing is the light is nice and white and very uniform
> though out the face of the instrument. Anyway, I thought... "gee
> I'm back to putting in a resistor to dim the light!"
>
> "OK, no problem. I'll figure out what size resistor I need and
> move on," I thought. The problem is the resistance of any
> incandescent lamp changes whether it hot or cold. The lamp is
> drawing 0.56 A at 12.0 v. Seem's like a lot to me. From that I
> deduced the lamp's resistance at 21.3 ohm. The problem is that
> when I figure out what size resistor I need to get say a 7 or 8 v
> voltage drop across the lamp and add that resistor to the circuit,
> the current changes and so does the resistance of the lamp. So how
> does one figure this stuff out? I decided to purchase a
> potentiometer and install it in my circuit, adjust it 'till I got
> the brightness I wanted and then measure the resistance of the
> pot. In doing this I began to smell smoke, the little pot was
> beginning to glow red as I dimmed down the light in the
> instrument. I went back and purchased a heavier pot. This did the
> trick. I decided a 20 ohm resistor in series would be perfect. I
> purchased a 22 ohm, 2 W resistor, temporarily installed it, and the
> light was perfect. The problem was I was still smelling that
> familiar acrid smell. I had a 7.4 v drop across the resistor and a
> .34 A current giving me 2.5 W to dissipate. I later tried two 10
> ohm, 2 W resistors in series. Still, they got too hot. I
> purchased a ceramic 22 ohm, 5 W resistor and it still got too hot
> to touch. The small battery I was using for testing was putting
> out 12.2 v under the load. I had a 7.4 v drop across the resistor,
> So I deduced I must be getting a 4.8 v drop across the lamp. The
> light was just right. I wonder if I still have a 5v lamp inside
> the instrument! I measured 0.34 A in the circuit. The 5 W
> resistor ought to be handling the 2.5 W I need to dissipate just
> fine. Something is wrong. Do any of you smart guys know what I'm doing wrong?
>
>Jerry
>"Smelling smoke in Georgia"
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator failure. Info provided |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tom & Cathy Ervin" <tcervin@valkyrie.net>
Well said Charlie! I have a B&C 40 Amp unit and regulator on my RV6-A which
has operated flawlessly. It is small, light and well engineered even though
it is rather expensive I wouldn't use anything else.
I am building a stable mate for the RV at this time and the F1 Rocket
will have the same B&C Combo.
Tom
in Ohio
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 10:02 AM
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss
> <chaztuna@adelphia.net>
>
>
>>snipped
>>Brian:
>>
>>Someone is feeding you a bunch of bunk!
>>DON'T SPREAD THE BUNK!
>>Hot rated ... MADE UP NONSENSE!
>>snipped
>>As far as auto Vs plane alternators ... Give me a NEW auto type any day.
>>They keep up with technology.
>>Don't believe it? Look at the smaller size and higher output that we have
>>today. Other than big business using data such as MTBF to set up a
>>warranty
>>program ... YES, they reduce the quality of the components to keep
>>operational
>>times just a farts breath longer than the warranty period. THAT is why I
>>do not
>>rebuild with OEM parts.
>
> Barry,
> I work on auto electrical systems every day. I take exception with your
> opinion that OEM parts are all junk. Some manufacturers have cut back on
> parts quality. They are used in by only certain manufacturers. They are
> the ones you hear being on the verge of bankruptcy on the TV news.
> Nippon Denso is not one of them. ND electrical parts are extremely
> reliable, as are ND factory remanufactured. My experience is that the
> re-mans sold by discount auto stores like Advance Auto Parts and Pep Boys
> use much lower quality components in their remanufactured parts. Sure,
> they offer life time warranties. What do they care? Their unit costs are
> very low (thanks to using cheap parts and labor). In addition, they aren't
> the ones doing the labor twice (or more).
> As a professional auto mechanic, using poor quality parts is bad business
> for me. I only get paid once. My customer wants the repair done correctly
> the first time. If the repair fails, I get to fix it again for free the
> second time. Add to that, customer ill will, and it adds up to a losing
> proposition for me. Having an electrical component fail away from home
> gets expensive for all of us, as aircraft owners. Loss of time gets
> expensive, if you have to pay for overnight shipping, or worse, a rental
> car and a motel room.
> Buy B&C Specialties or purchase from an auto parts source. Just make sure
> you get high quality parts. You can't go wrong with genuine ND parts.
> Charlie Kuss
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
> http://wiki.matronics.com
>
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator failure. Info provided |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Brinker" <brinker@cox-internet.com>
Excuse my ignorance, but would someone please explain
blast tube ? I have it in my mind an opening in the front of the cowling
with baffling specific for the alternator.
Randy
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 9:15 AM
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com
>
> In a message dated 6/30/06 9:41:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> Hopperdhh@aol.com writes:
>
>> Blow
>> some air on it and it will run cooler at the same current. Almost any
>> failure mode will be less at a lower temperature.
>>
>> Dan Hopper
>> RV-7A
> =================================
> Dan:
>
> You are 100% correct. Cooling is very essential and I did forget to
> mention
> that. AND I should have know better, just last year a new alternator
> (Nippon)
> in an RV-6A failed for lack of cooling. I added a blast tube and haven't
> had
> a problem since.
> Thanks for adding to the list.
>
>
> Barry
> "Chop'd Liver"
>
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator failure. Info provided |
On Jun 30, 2006, at 2:33 PM, Brinker wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Brinker" <brinker@cox-
> internet.com>
>
> Excuse my ignorance, but would someone please
> explain blast tube ? I have it in my mind an opening in the front
> of the cowling with baffling specific for the alternator.
A blast tube is a piece of rigid tubing that comes out of the high-
pressure side of the cooling air plenum and directs cool air at any
device that needs cooling. You will often find a blast tube providing
cooling air to a magneto, a fuel pump, and/or an alternator. I have
seen alternators with cooling shrouds and with a port to allow the
cooling air to be piped right inside the alternator. The latter is
much better than a blast tube.
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
=97 Antoine de Saint-Exup=E9ry
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator failure. Info provided |
Robert: You are right with a ND alternator you DON'T need
an ALT switch at all. That is why I suggest combining the
MASTER switch (which we do have) and the ALT switch
together in one DPST switch, but we could take that a
step further.
You could just run the alternator direct to the main buss
with no switch which is OK, but.........
I do believe in having a way to remove power to the
IGN wire (the wake/sleep signal) for NON NORMAL
circumstances or conditions, it's goodness.
A PULL-ABLE circuit breaker would do the job of
emergency power disconnect nicely.
You could also use a split Cessna style switch and a
fuse. I don't care for the Cessna switch because there
is a chance the pilot will mess with it or accidentally
leave the alternator off inadvertantly, at least if they
don't have a good low volt warning.**
I guess I am a victim of convention and following some
standardization of wiring. I like the idea of having the
ALT go thru a discrete switch of some kind, although
as you point out, it can be left off and is not doing
much, especially if you have the pull-able CB.
What cars have is an ignition switch, which is their
combined MASTER and ALT and STARTER switch
all in one. You could copy that concept. After all the
alternator in question was designed to work in a car.
It has microprocessor control to work with out the
operator to manually bring it on line or control an
OV or what ever. They do fail but it is usually
benign. On the other hand a car can pull over to
the shoulder. We can't park on a cloud to fix
things, so I suggest a way to at least attempt
to shut it down if it fails in flight.
** As far as LOW voltage all these ND's have a
low volt fault light that should be wired into the
aircraft. Many builders do not use it from many
reasons. Van who sells many ND units in there
accessory catalog does not show that PIN
wired and therefore many follow that omission.
Hope that answers your question.
>posted by: Robert Sultzbach <endspeed@yahoo.com>
>Hi George,
>After reading your post I was left wondering why
>bother having a field switch at all in this type of
>alternator. Is there a reason to have a field switch?
---------------------------------
Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator Field Switch |
On that note, just got my new Sport Aviation magazine, and the technical
counselor article is all about needing an avionics master switch to
protect
your electronics from spikes caused by "inductive kicks". That'll
probably
be enough to keep these OWTs going stronger than ever. Argh.
William Slaughter
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian
Lloyd
Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 5:05 AM
On Jun 30, 2006, at 4:38 AM, FLYaDIVE@aol.com wrote:
There are also some not as relevant reasons:
Voltage spikes when starting
Reducing load on the starting of the engine
Control of the alternator or alternators
I don't really want to pick a fight but these wives' tales seem to
persist:
voltage "spikes" and engine load when starting. I have certainly seen
low
voltage caused by starter load but I just don't know where voltage
"spikes"
would come from. Likewise, the load from the alternator on an engine
turning
at 150-200 RPM during cranking is inconsequential as the alternator is
not
turning fast enough to produce an output above battery voltage so it is
delivering no current and hence placing no load on the engine. The only
load
the alternator places are frictional loads, and those exist whether the
field is active or not, and the slightly extra battery drain of 2 or 3
amps
to excite the field.
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
=97 Antoine de Saint-Exup=E9ry
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator failure. Info provided (B&C value, reliability?) |
I am sure B&C sells a nice product.
I think B&C might(?) achieve better reliability,
but........
There is NO DATA to back that up any claim
that B&C has superior reliability. I know B&C
and Bob N. have a strong opinions but no
real data.
To say ZERO failures is disingenuous at best,
with all do respect to B&C, but when you sell
a product that cost 3 or 4 times as much I
guess you have to distinguish yourself.
However you have to be intellectually
honest and admit that things fail and there
is NO guarantee, regardless of the price
paid.
I know of several B&C products to fail both
first hand and second hand, just check the
archives.
There are many B&C failures that don't make
news, web fourms or even get reported to B&C.
They are experimental and these is no tracking
of reliability. I am sure B&C is aware of failures
and Bob N. has been somewhat forthright with
problems regarding the voltage regulator that
has lead to improvements. There are still issues.
You have to include the alternator and regulator
as a whole system when comparing it to a ND unit
with integral Voltage regulator.
B&C alternators are made 98% from ND parts
or clone aftermarket ND parts. They DO anodize
and claim to balance it within a hair on Nat's
bee-hind, but the benifit of this blue printing is a
raging debate to be had another time. I can imagine
there's a positive, but how much affect on reliability
I don't know.
I can say if any alternator is bolted to a wild shaking
Lycoming, producing endless vibrations and 50 G
shaking at start and shut down like a wet dog, it's
going for a WILD RIDE anyway. It is like measuring
it with a microscope and cutting with an AX. Same
with balance, does it matter? May Be?
Stock alternators are NOT without some balance.
There are million and millions of ND alternators
(stock) running 24 hours, 7 days, year after year
WORLD wide in cars and industrial equip with
extreme reliability under demanding conditons.
Both my Acura's have ND alternators. One is at
130K with no issue and the other 185K, with a
combined +24 years of combined use.
The issue with many ND alternators builders use is
the fact they came from a supplier selling less than
great aftermarket NON nippondenso units. As this
15-18 year old design gets older, you will only
find aftermarket alternators. The good news is
there are good aftermarket parts. The bad news is
there are BAD ones as well. Aftermarket ND parts
are make in Taiwan and China by 4 or more big
companies. Not all are of the same quality.
Not all aftermarket parts are the same. The same
applies to re-builds at the Auto Zone or Pep-Boys.
At least many offer a good warranty. The bad news
is that chain of auto parts store may not be in your
area when doing a cross country and it fails. If
you can't go to the same store, you can't take
advantage of the warranty replacement. I suspect
if Auto-Parts-R-Us gets wind its on a plane, they
may protest and deny your warranty claim anyway.
If a B&C regulator or alternator fails, it is a custom
alternator that only B&C can really work on. There
is something to be said with over the counter auto
parts.
I am sure B&C is good, but not as great as their hype.
If you read B&C's web site it is full of hyperbole and
rhetoric. I read the B&C sales pitch and it is so
strongly worded, like a novel, One dark and stormy
night stories, they just turn me off. It plays on
emotion not facts. I got a cold sweat and thought I
was going to die of an electrical failure sitting in my
office in front to my PC. It's a great sales pitch but
it's overstated. The owner or B&C is a super nice
guy and think he believes in his product. This is
just my opinion about what I think of sale's pitches
that play on emotion not the product.
On a cost to benefit analysis I doubt you will see
a cost benifit from the B&C in your or anyone's
lifetime. My only gripe with B&C is the outrageous
price they charge. If you want an alternator kit
check out Plane Power.
I think if you buy a good quality after-market stock
ND alternator and install and operate it properly,
you can achieve the same reliability as any DESIGNER
brand alternator. Proper operation is don't
cycle the ALT switch with the engine turning and
don't overload it. Proper installation is install the
warning light and provide heat shield and cooling air.
Both Plane Power and B&C offer value but I think of
the two, Plane Power has the value edge:
- High Altitude brushes
- Proper Fan cooling direction
- Additional O/V protection (elegant**)
- High Quality installation hardware ($375)
(** additional OV is integrated not an ADD on B-lead relay)
>From: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
>If Bill Bainbridge of B&C is to be believed, the failure
>rate of B&C alternators is very close to zero.
---------------------------------
Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Instrument lighting |
I can't resist: "And what are you doing at night that you need a
g-meter for?"
. . . How about not connecting a wire to the g-meter light?
David
----- Original Message -----
From: Jerry & Ledy Esquenazi
To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 6:06 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Instrument lighting
Hey Guys,
I have a simple problem that most likely has a simple solution.
The solution, however, eludes me. I have an internally lit g-meter on
my instrument panel (Don't ask me why :-)). The g-meter's lighting is
internal to the instrument, i.e. it's not a lighting tray that is
screwed to the top. The instrument would have to be opened up to get to
the lamp.
I purchased the g-meter from Chief a while back ago, and when I
received it, I realized it was a 5v unit. Chief didn't have any other
lighting option listed or available. I thought about dropping the
voltage with a resistor. Before doing this I called the manufacturer
Wultrad (aka Falcon Gauge). They said they had a 12v unit in stock that
they could swap for mine. I thought... "great problem solved." They
shipped me one back with a 12v label over the original label. In
testing my instrument panel lighting, I discovered that the g-meter is
considerably brighter than the other instruments to the point it would
be annoying at night. The interesting thing is the light is nice and
white and very uniform though out the face of the instrument. Anyway, I
thought... "gee I'm back to putting in a resistor to dim the light!"
"OK, no problem. I'll figure out what size resistor I need and
move on," I thought. The problem is the resistance of any incandescent
lamp changes whether it hot or cold. The lamp is drawing 0.56 A at 12.0
v. Seem's like a lot to me. From that I deduced the lamp's resistance
at 21.3 ohm. The problem is that when I figure out what size resistor I
need to get say a 7 or 8 v voltage drop across the lamp and add that
resistor to the circuit, the current changes and so does the resistance
of the lamp. So how does one figure this stuff out? I decided to
purchase a potentiometer and install it in my circuit, adjust it 'till I
got the brightness I wanted and then measure the resistance of the pot.
In doing this I began to smell smoke, the little pot was beginning to
glow red as I dimmed down the light in the instrument. I went back and
purchased a heavier pot. This did the trick. I decided a 20 ohm
resistor in series would be perfect. I purchased a 22 ohm, 2 W
resistor, temporarily installed it, and the light was perfect. The
problem was I was still smelling that familiar acrid smell. I had a 7.4
v drop across the resistor and a .34 A current giving me 2.5 W to
dissipate. I later tried two 10 ohm, 2 W resistors in series. Still,
they got too hot. I purchased a ceramic 22 ohm, 5 W resistor and it
still got too hot to touch. The small battery I was using for testing
was putting out 12.2 v under the load. I had a 7.4 v drop across the
resistor, So I deduced I must be getting a 4.8 v drop across the lamp.
The light was just right. I wonder if I still have a 5v lamp inside the
instrument! I measured 0.34 A in the circuit. The 5 W resistor ought
to be handling the 2.5 W I need to dissipate just fine. Something is
wrong. Do any of you smart guys know what I'm doing wrong?
Jerry
"Smelling smoke in Georgia"
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator failure. Info provided (B&C value, |
reliability?)
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kevin Horton <khorton01@rogers.com>
On 30 Jun 2006, at 20:00, <gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I am sure B&C sells a nice product.
>
>
> I think B&C might(?) achieve better reliability,
> but........
>
> There is NO DATA to back that up any claim
> that B&C has superior reliability. I know B&C
> and Bob N. have a strong opinions but no
> real data.
We've read about a number of failures of converted automotive
alternators on this list. But I don't recall reading about any
failures of B&C alternators. That seems to suggest that the failure
rate must be fairly low. I have seen a number of posts from people
who are using B&C main alternators, so I know they are selling a few.
Kevin Horton
Ottawa, Canada
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator failure. Info provided (B&C value, |
reliability?)
George, you could save us a lot of time and yourself a lot of words by just
coming up with the name and circumstances of someone who has had a B&C
alternator failure. Could it be that NO DATA really means no failures?
Terry
_____
There is NO DATA to back that up any claim
that B&C has superior reliability. I know B&C
and Bob N. have a strong opinions but no
real data.
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator failure. Info provided (B&C value, |
reli...
In a message dated 06/30/2006 7:08:39 PM Central Daylight Time,
gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com writes:
There is NO DATA to back that up any claim
that B&C has superior reliability. I know B&C
and Bob N. have a strong opinions but no
real data.
>>>
OK, George- here's some data:
I have had NO failures on my B&C and Mike's had FIVE on his whatever else-
Not opinion, FACT. Maybe not a big sample, but I've yet to hear of a B&C
alternator failure on this forum or anywhere else for that matter. Have YOU?
Mark Phillips- do not archive and NO- B&C got MY money and paid me NOTHING to
say this...
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Instrument lighting |
Since David cant resist neither can I. How about a little piece of
electrical tape over the meter at night? Like is used to cover the idiot
light in a car that says, ''service vehicle soon''.!
bob noffs
----- Original Message -----
From: David Carter
To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 7:37 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Instrument lighting
I can't resist: "And what are you doing at night that you need a
g-meter for?"
. . . How about not connecting a wire to the g-meter light?
David
----- Original Message -----
From: Jerry & Ledy Esquenazi
To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 6:06 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Instrument lighting
Hey Guys,
I have a simple problem that most likely has a simple solution.
The solution, however, eludes me. I have an internally lit g-meter on
my instrument panel (Don't ask me why :-)). The g-meter's lighting is
internal to the instrument, i.e. it's not a lighting tray that is
screwed to the top. The instrument would have to be opened up to get to
the lamp.
I purchased the g-meter from Chief a while back ago, and when I
received it, I realized it was a 5v unit. Chief didn't have any other
lighting option listed or available. I thought about dropping the
voltage with a resistor. Before doing this I called the manufacturer
Wultrad (aka Falcon Gauge). They said they had a 12v unit in stock that
they could swap for mine. I thought... "great problem solved." They
shipped me one back with a 12v label over the original label. In
testing my instrument panel lighting, I discovered that the g-meter is
considerably brighter than the other instruments to the point it would
be annoying at night. The interesting thing is the light is nice and
white and very uniform though out the face of the instrument. Anyway, I
thought... "gee I'm back to putting in a resistor to dim the light!"
"OK, no problem. I'll figure out what size resistor I need and
move on," I thought. The problem is the resistance of any incandescent
lamp changes whether it hot or cold. The lamp is drawing 0.56 A at 12.0
v. Seem's like a lot to me. From that I deduced the lamp's resistance
at 21.3 ohm. The problem is that when I figure out what size resistor I
need to get say a 7 or 8 v voltage drop across the lamp and add that
resistor to the circuit, the current changes and so does the resistance
of the lamp. So how does one figure this stuff out? I decided to
purchase a potentiometer and install it in my circuit, adjust it 'till I
got the brightness I wanted and then measure the resistance of the pot.
In doing this I began to smell smoke, the little pot was beginning to
glow red as I dimmed down the light in the instrument. I went back and
purchased a heavier pot. This did the trick. I decided a 20 ohm
resistor in series would be perfect. I purchased a 22 ohm, 2 W
resistor, temporarily installed it, and the light was perfect. The
problem was I was still smelling that familiar acrid smell. I had a 7.4
v drop across the resistor and a .34 A current giving me 2.5 W to
dissipate. I later tried two 10 ohm, 2 W resistors in series. Still,
they got too hot. I purchased a ceramic 22 ohm, 5 W resistor and it
still got too hot to touch. The small battery I was using for testing
was putting out 12.2 v under the load. I had a 7.4 v drop across the
resistor, So I deduced I must be getting a 4.8 v drop across the lamp.
The light was just right. I wonder if I still have a 5v lamp inside the
instrument! I measured 0.34 A in the circuit. The 5 W resistor ought
to be handling the 2.5 W I need to dissipate just fine. Something is
wrong. Do any of you smart guys know what I'm doing wrong?
Jerry
"Smelling smoke in Georgia"
Message 30
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|
| Subject: | Re: Alternator failure. Info provided (B&C value, |
reli...
I have an over the counter nippondenso alt (89$) and a b&c alternator
(more$) on different aircraft, both with several hundred hours of
trouble
free operation. Does this mean they are equal in reliability???
Everything
has a failure rate=85.is it possible there is no data to support their
claims
because they haven=92t conducted and published endurance and destructive
test
results in a controlled environment? Maybe some comparative tests???
I=92m
not sure how to perform such tests, but is there any other way to prove
or
disprove anyone=92s claims more conclusively than with hard data=85 that
being
said, will I put a b&c on my rv10?? Yes, I take comfort in knowing
someone
with experience has at least examined my alternator and is willing to
put
their name on it. I have no idea who rebuilt my autozone reman=85.
Steve
40205
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Fiveonepw@aol.com
Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 11:28 PM
(B&C
value, reli...
In a message dated 06/30/2006 7:08:39 PM Central Daylight Time,
gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com writes:
There is NO DATA to back that up any claim
that B&C has superior reliability. I know B&C
and Bob N. have a strong opinions but no
real data.
>>>
OK, George- here's some data:
I have had NO failures on my B&C and Mike's had FIVE on his whatever
else-
Not opinion, FACT. Maybe not a big sample, but I've yet to hear of a
B&C
alternator failure on this forum or anywhere else for that matter. Have
YOU?
Mark Phillips- do not archive and NO- B&C got MY money and paid me
NOTHING
to say this...
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