Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:32 AM - Re: Alternator failure. Info provided (B&C value reliability) ()
2. 04:41 AM - Re: Alternator failure. Info provided (LarryRobertHelming)
3. 04:48 AM - Re: Re: Alternator failure. Info provided (LarryRobertHelming)
4. 05:30 AM - Re: Re: Alternator failure. Info provided (BobsV35B@aol.com)
5. 06:34 AM - Re: Re: Alternator failure. Info provided (Ken)
6. 06:58 AM - Re: Is there a color code convention for intercom wiring (Gary Edwards)
7. 09:03 AM - Re: Re: Alternator failure. Info provided (B&C value reliability) (Brian Lloyd)
8. 09:29 AM - Re: Re: Alternator failure. Info provided (B&C value reliability) (Terry Watson)
9. 09:29 AM - Re: Re: Alternator failure. Info provided (Brian Lloyd)
10. 10:15 AM - Re: Re: Alternator failure. Info provided (Charlie Kuss)
11. 12:18 PM - Re: Re: Alternator failure. Info provided (B&C (Richard Dudley)
12. 12:38 PM - Re: Re: Alternator failure. Info provided (Brian Lloyd)
13. 01:25 PM - Re: Re: Alternator failure. Info provided (Mickey Coggins)
14. 03:16 PM - 22000 MF Capacitor (Tommy Walker)
15. 04:18 PM - Re: Re: Alternator failure. Info provided (Brian Lloyd)
16. 05:04 PM - Alternator failure. Info provided (Steve Thomas)
17. 07:17 PM - Re: Re: Alternator failure. Info provided (B&C value relia... (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
18. 09:20 PM - Alternator Failure - Info provided (Fergus Kyle)
19. 10:35 PM - Modifing an ND alternator regulator (Paul Messinger)
20. 11:34 PM - Official AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle)
21. 11:34 PM - Official AeroElectric-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator failure. Info provided (B&C value reliability) |
There have been many many many B&C alternator and
voltage regulator failures. Don't take my word on it just
check these archives. It happens.
I already wrote that there are failures in my post. In fact
one acquaintance got tired of the B&C voltage regulator that
burned out and replaced it with a $9.00 Ford VR.
I can point to 1000's of other ND's sold by Van's aircraft
and Niagara that have gone and are still are going for over
a 1000 hours with out problems.
Mike and his multi failures is a mystery and don't know
any details.
What alternator?
Where did he buy it?
How is it installed? Wiring? Belt?
Does he cycle the alternator on and off under load?
Does he have cooling air going to it?
Did he use the warning light
Is the battery in good condition?
This is not going to be productive. You are just two
people which is not a statistically meaningful sample,
BUT it is a data point and you and MIKE have two
differnt outcomes that we might make a conclusion.
However I bet there are several 1000 more stock ND's
flying than B&C's. Even if we hear from the Mike's less
than good results there are many more that have the
bragging rights you have. However for the $600-$700
you would expect it to be better by a factor of 3 or 4.
I will concede that quality of some ND aftermarket and
rebuilt Alts is an issue. I do think the vendor Van had
used in the past was not the best. Well now they
changed their product. The #14684 is a new aftermarket
unit of a differnt (better?) brand. I think the quality
issue will get better. They also added the Plane
Power units as well.
To be fair to Van's a/c, builders do some not so smart
things with their alternator and incorrectly wire
them. The classic was the O/V module (crow bar)
and b-lead relay that people intentionally tripped
while the alternator was running. Many of the
Alts where fried. They are not designed to be
disconnected from the battery while running.
The same with cycling the ALT switch, which
as you know I have said many times is a bad
idea. I guess you can say your B&C is more
tolerant of mis use?
Nothing against B&C, except the price.
Again B&C is great but to claim near perfection
is just silly. I think B&C is being miss quoted. I
know if you ask pointed questions they will tell
you the reasons parts have come back in the past.
However if you had a product and reputation you
would protect that.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>From: Fiveonepw@aol.com
>
>OK, George- here's some data:
>I have had NO failures on my B&C and Mike's had FIVE
>on his whatever else- Not opinion, FACT. Maybe not a big
>sample, but I've yet to hear of a B&C alternator failure on
>this forum or anywhere else for that matter. Have YOU?
---------------------------------
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator failure. Info provided |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Brinker"
<brinker@cox-internet.com>
Excuse my ignorance, but would someone please
explain blast tube ? I have it in my mind an opening in the front of the
cowling with baffling specific for the alternator.
A blast tube is a piece of rigid tubing that comes out of the
high-pressure side of the cooling air plenum and directs cool air at any
device that needs cooling. You will often find a blast tube providing
cooling air to a magneto, a fuel pump, and/or an alternator. I have seen
alternators with cooling shrouds and with a port to allow the cooling
air to be piped right inside the alternator. The latter is much better
than a blast tube.
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
You can use a flexible tube also and insert some sort of stiff wire
type shaft inside it to bend it into the shape and direction you want so
it blows right where needed. Larry in Indiana
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator failure. Info provided |
Well, I am ready to present a question that I have not seen presented
and wonder just why the great minds of aero-elec have not asked it
already.
With all the concern about shutting down a runaway alternator and the
fact that IR alts. cannot be controlled in that way, why couldn't we
setup a switch (heavy duty one mind you) that we could throw in the
event of the OV that would just ground the alt. output to the plane's
frame or ground or have some tremendus load present like a hundred light
bulbs that got switched on to absorb the over load of electrons. I
suppose we could also consider a knife that could be moved out into the
path of the alt. belt to cut it off to cause the alt. to quit spinning.
Larry in Indiana
----- Original Message -----
I do believe in having a way to remove power to the
IGN wire (the wake/sleep signal) for NON NORMAL
circumstances or conditions, it's goodness.
A PULL-ABLE circuit breaker would do the job of
emergency power disconnect nicely.
You could also use a split Cessna style switch and a
fuse. I don't care for the Cessna switch because there
is a chance the pilot will mess with it or accidentally
leave the alternator off inadvertantly, at least if they
don't have a good low volt warning.**
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator failure. Info provided |
Good Morning Larry,
Along that line, but maybe just a bit easier to implement than a big knife,
why not an electric clutch on the drive?
Such clutches are available now for use with standby alternators. They tend
to be used to activate rather than deactivate the device, but who knows!!!????
It may have possibilities!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
In a message dated 7/1/2006 6:51:09 A.M. Central Standard Time,
lhelming@sigecom.net writes:
With all the concern about shutting down a runaway alternator and the fact
that IR alts. cannot be controlled in that way, why couldn't we setup a switch
(heavy duty one mind you) that we could throw in the event of the OV that
would just ground the alt. output to the plane's frame or ground or have some
tremendus load present like a hundred light bulbs that got switched on to
absorb the over load of electrons. I suppose we could also consider a knife that
could be moved out into the path of the alt. belt to cut it off to cause the
alt. to quit spinning. Larry in Indiana
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator failure. Info provided |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
The electric clutches are heavy, use a fair bit of power, and are
usually too large diameter for use on the alternator.
The issue of loading excess output has been discussed at least once 3 or
4 years ago. You need the space to put something like a killowatt of
heaters and the end result is likely a burnt up alternator fairly
quickly anyway except now you also have high current and heat to
consider. Bob K. did not recommend this approach. You still might need
to disconnect the alternaor from the battery or expect the battery to
blow the B lead fuse to make sure the battery was not pulled down as
well. I concluded that a OVP cutoff and a second small alternator made
more sense, was simpler, and more versatile. A search for "stall the
alternator" might bring something up.
Ken
BobsV35B@aol.com wrote:
> Good Morning Larry,
>
> Along that line, but maybe just a bit easier to implement than a big
> knife, why not an electric clutch on the drive?
>
> Such clutches are available now for use with standby alternators. They
> tend to be used to activate rather than deactivate the device, but who
> knows!!!????
>
> It may have possibilities!
>
> Happy Skies,
>
> Old Bob
> AKA
> Bob Siegfried
> Ancient Aviator
> Stearman N3977A
> Brookeridge Air Park LL22
> Downers Grove, IL 60516
> 630 985-8503
>
> In a message dated 7/1/2006 6:51:09 A.M. Central Standard Time,
> lhelming@sigecom.net writes:
>
> With all the concern about shutting down a runaway alternator and
> the fact that IR alts. cannot be controlled in that way, why
> couldn't we setup a switch (heavy duty one mind you) that we could
> throw in the event of the OV that would just ground the alt.
> output to the plane's frame or ground or have some tremendus load
> present like a hundred light bulbs that got switched on to absorb
> the over load of electrons. I suppose we could also consider a
> knife that could be moved out into the path of the alt. belt to
> cut it off to cause the alt. to quit spinning. Larry in Indiana
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Is there a color code convention for intercom wiring |
> > I had planned to use one color style to wire the microphone jacks
and the
> > other color style to wire the headphone jacks. I feel that
this
> will aid in
> > avoiding confusion for future troubleshooting.
> > Charlie Kuss
>========================
=
>Charlie:
>
>The colors are your choice.
>But, the Mic cable should have 3 wires and a shield and the Phone
cable
>should have 2 wires and a shield. Kind of hard to mix that up.
>
>Barry
>"Chop'd Liver"
Barry,
For a mono intercom, you are correct. However, I clearly stated
that this is a STEREO intercom. (You snipped this part of my
original
post out of your reply) . The headphone jacks also have 3 wires.
(Pilot & Co-Pilot mics have 3 wires. Passenger mics have 2 wires)
I
like Rick Lindstrom's idea of using the "Red is Right" rule. This
is
a common convention with home and car stereo equipment.
Blue is closer to Black (normal ground color) than yellow or
red,
so that seems like a good color for ground. Yellow, being odd man
out, gets to be the left channel.
I'll use this color coding unless someone knows of a definitive
aviation convention.
Charlie Kuss
Charlie,
An aviation A&P, A&I related to me a line to remember when wiring jacks
and plugs, which I utilized when wiring my Lancair and several RV's is:
White, Right, Ring
Obviously white is the wire color; right is the right channel for
copilot or stereo or earcup or whatever; ring if which terminal on the
jack or plug.
Gary Edwards
LNC2
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator failure. Info provided (B&C value |
reliability)
On Jul 1, 2006, at 5:22 AM, <gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com>
<gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com> wrote:
> There have been many many many B&C alternator and
> voltage regulator failures. Don't take my word on it just
> check these archives. It happens.
Sure, everything fails. Some things just take a really long time to
do so. And I don't think there have been "many many many" failures.
> Nothing against B&C, except the price.
Have you ever looked at a B&C alternator? Their castings and
machinings are quite nice -- first rate. They take pains to use good
bearings and balance the rotor. It is a precision piece of hardware.
I would expect to pay more for it. I would also expect it to go to
TBO without a failure.
> Again B&C is great but to claim near perfection
> is just silly. I think B&C is being miss quoted. I
> know if you ask pointed questions they will tell
> you the reasons parts have come back in the past.
> However if you had a product and reputation you
> would protect that.
Bill has always been up-front about how he builds things and about
how things work. I suspect he would be happy to provide people with a
list of failures and reasons. I suspect he can tell you how many he
has sold, how many are in service, how many have failed, and why they
have failed. Good solid information is how you convince people to
trust you. Building a product that is as good as it can be doesn't
hurt either.
I think everyone knows that B&C produces a first-class product. None
of us know the real failure numbers so any argument is pointless. I
am convinced in my own mind that they make the best alternator
product out there but that is only my opinion. I know it is expensive
but if it just works and doesn't fail, it is worth the extra money to
me. Your mileage may vary.
If someone wants to know the exact failure numbers they should go ask
Bill Bainbridge. If someone does and he answers, perhaps they will be
so good as to post the information here.
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
=97 Antoine de Saint-Exup=E9ry
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator failure. Info provided (B&C value |
reliability)
You are trying to change the subject, George. The subject (see subject line
above) was ALTERNATOR failures; specifically failure (or lack thereof) of
B&C alternators. So now you say "There have been many many many B&C
alternator and voltage regulator failures," and go on to talk about voltage
regulators.
You claim there have been many, and that they are in the archives. I have
been reading the Aeroelectric List since it was created and I don't recall
ever seeing a report of a B&C alternator failure. I just spent some time
searching the archives under "alternator failure" and "B&C Alternators" and
couldn't find any hint of a failure of a B&C alternator. I did find mention
of B&C voltage regulator design changes because of some problem, but nothing
about B&C alternator failures.
You are the one making the claim, George. Give us some evidence, or give it
up.
Terry
_____
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com
Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 2:22 AM
reliability)
There have been many many many B&C alternator and
voltage regulator failures. Don't take my word on it just
check these archives. It happens.
<snip>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------
>From: Fiveonepw@aol.com
>
>OK, George- here's some data:
>I have had NO failures on my B&C and Mike's had FIVE
>on his whatever else- Not opinion, FACT. Maybe not a big
>sample, but I've yet to hear of a B&C alternator failure on
>this forum or anywhere else for that matter. Have YOU?
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator failure. Info provided |
On Jul 1, 2006, at 7:45 AM, LarryRobertHelming wrote:
> Well, I am ready to present a question that I have not seen
> presented and wonder just why the great minds of aero-elec have not
> asked it already.
>
> With all the concern about shutting down a runaway alternator and
> the fact that IR alts. cannot be controlled in that way, why
> couldn't we setup a switch (heavy duty one mind you) that we could
> throw in the event of the OV that would just ground the alt. output
> to the plane's frame or ground or have some tremendus load present
> like a hundred light bulbs that got switched on to absorb the over
> load of electrons. I suppose we could also consider a knife that
> could be moved out into the path of the alt. belt to cut it off to
> cause the alt. to quit spinning. Larry in Indiana
There has been a lot of discussion of this. The long and short of it
is that you turn off an alternator by de-energizing the field. This
is easy to do with an external regulator as you just put a switch
between the bus and the power input to the regulator.
The problem comes with internally regulated alternators. They have
their own set of diodes that power the regulator and field. Once the
alternator comes on-line, it continues to make its own power. Some IR
alternators have an input that is an on/off signal to turn the
alternator off but if the on/off circuit in the internal regulator
fails you may not be able to turn off the field current and thus turn
off the alternator.
But this is the OBAM world. There is nothing preventing anyone from
creating a fail-safe way to turn off an IR alternator. In the boating
world we convert IR alternators into ER alternators all the time so
we can use better, smarter regulators. It would be almost as easy to
provide absolute control over the internal regulator and field supply.
Inside the IR alternator there is something called the diode trio. It
is a small set of diodes that take their output from the stator and
provide DC to the internal regulator. That is where it gets its
power. All you have to do is remove the diode trio and bring the
power input to the regulator to an external terminal. When you want
to turn the alternator on you connect this terminal to the main bus.
When you want to absolutely turn the alternator off, remove power
from this terminal. Simple. Now your IR alternator operates as if it
were an ER alternator.
If the alternator has an "I" (ignition) terminal, rewire to use that.
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
=97 Antoine de Saint-Exup=E9ry
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator failure. Info provided |
At 12:08 PM 7/1/2006, you wrote:
>On Jul 1, 2006, at 7:45 AM, LarryRobertHelming wrote:
>
>>Well, I am ready to present a question that I have not seen
>>presented and wonder just why the great minds of aero-elec have not
>>asked it already.
>>
>>With all the concern about shutting down a runaway alternator and
>>the fact that IR alts. cannot be controlled in that way, why
>>couldn't we setup a switch (heavy duty one mind you) that we could
>>throw in the event of the OV that would just ground the alt. output
>>to the plane's frame or ground or have some tremendus load present
>>like a hundred light bulbs that got switched on to absorb the over
>>load of electrons. I suppose we could also consider a knife that
>>could be moved out into the path of the alt. belt to cut it off to
>>cause the alt. to quit spinning. Larry in Indiana
>
>There has been a lot of discussion of this. The long and short of it
>is that you turn off an alternator by de-energizing the field. This
>is easy to do with an external regulator as you just put a switch
>between the bus and the power input to the regulator.
>
>The problem comes with internally regulated alternators. They have
>their own set of diodes that power the regulator and field. Once the
>alternator comes on-line, it continues to make its own power. Some
>IR alternators have an input that is an on/off signal to turn the
>alternator off but if the on/off circuit in the internal regulator
>fails you may not be able to turn off the field current and thus
>turn off the alternator.
>
>But this is the OBAM world. There is nothing preventing anyone from
>creating a fail-safe way to turn off an IR alternator. In the
>boating world we convert IR alternators into ER alternators all the
>time so we can use better, smarter regulators. It would be almost as
>easy to provide absolute control over the internal regulator and field supply.
>
>Inside the IR alternator there is something called the diode trio.
>It is a small set of diodes that take their output from the stator
>and provide DC to the internal regulator. That is where it gets its
>power. All you have to do is remove the diode trio and bring the
>power input to the regulator to an external terminal. When you want
>to turn the alternator on you connect this terminal to the main bus.
>When you want to absolutely turn the alternator off, remove power
>from this terminal. Simple. Now your IR alternator operates as if it
>were an ER alternator.
>
>If the alternator has an "I" (ignition) terminal, rewire to use that.
>
>Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
>brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630
>+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
Brian,
I have a copy of the article that Paul Messinger wrote in CONTACT
magazine some years ago, that details how to convert a ND internally
regulated alternator to external regulation. Essentially, it
describes how solder jumper wires which will bypass the internal
regulator. A conventional external regulator is then added to the
system for rotor field control.
If I understand your post correctly, what you describe retains the
stock regulator, but allows external manual control if it. This
sounds great. However, I have to wonder, if it really is this simple,
why haven't Paul M or Bob N proposed it before? I'm not knocking what
you propose. I'm just wondering why this took so long to appear on this list?
Do you have a schematic or photos of how to achieve this? Does this
modification require the use of certain model(s) of ND alternator to
function properly?
Charlie Kuss
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator failure. Info provided (B&C |
Hear hear!!!
Many of us would like the FACTS!!!
RHDudley
Terry Watson wrote:
> You are trying to change the subject, George. The subject (see subject
> line above) was ALTERNATOR failures; specifically failure (or lack
> thereof) of B&C alternators. So now you say "There have been many many
> many B&C alternator and voltage regulator failures," and go on to talk
> about voltage regulators.
>
>
>
> You claim there have been many, and that they are in the archives. I
> have been reading the Aeroelectric List since it was created and I
> don't recall ever seeing a report of a B&C alternator failure. I just
> spent some time searching the archives under "alternator failure" and
> "B&C Alternators" and couldn't find any hint of a failure of a B&C
> alternator. I did find mention of B&C voltage regulator design changes
> because of some problem, but nothing about B&C alternator failures.
>
>
>
> You are the one making the claim, George. Give us some evidence, or
> give it up.
>
>
>
> Terry
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com
> Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 2:22 AM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Alternator failure. Info provided (B&C
> value reliability)
>
>
>
> There have been many many many B&C alternator and
> voltage regulator failures. Don't take my word on it just
> check these archives. It happens.
>
> <snip>
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>>From: Fiveonepw@aol.com <mailto:Fiveonepw@aol.com>
>>
>>OK, George- here's some data:
>>I have had NO failures on my B&C and Mike's had FIVE
>>on his whatever else- Not opinion, FACT. Maybe not a big
>>sample, but I've yet to hear of a B&C alternator failure on
>>this forum or anywhere else for that matter. Have YOU?
>
>
>
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator failure. Info provided |
On Jul 1, 2006, at 1:09 PM, Charlie Kuss wrote:
> Brian,
> I have a copy of the article that Paul Messinger wrote in CONTACT
> magazine some years ago, that details how to convert a ND
> internally regulated alternator to external regulation.
> Essentially, it describes how solder jumper wires which will bypass
> the internal regulator. A conventional external regulator is then
> added to the system for rotor field control.
Right. That is what I have done so my alternators on the boat -- more
or less. In my case there is a kit that drops in place of the
existing internal regulator that neatly provides access to the field
on a connector.
> If I understand your post correctly, what you describe retains the
> stock regulator, but allows external manual control if it.
That is correct.
> This sounds great. However, I have to wonder, if it really is this
> simple, why haven't Paul M or Bob N proposed it before?
Bob Nuckolls and I have exchanged email about this and, as I recall,
he was concerned about asking people to take their alternator apart
and possibly making it less reliable by not doing a good job with
soldering or other workmanship inside the alternator. His point is a
very good and valid one.
(And Bob, please step in her if I am misrepresenting you as our
conversations in this area are a couple years old if I recall.)
OTOH, these things are pretty beefy and not prone to being screwed up
by ham-handed mechanics. Making a bad solder joint is about the worst
that I can see happening. I also suppose that if you shorted the B-
lead to the field somehow you could get it to run away too.
> I'm not knocking what you propose. I'm just wondering why this took
> so long to appear on this list?
Dunno. It seems pretty obvious to me so I just assumed someone had
posted it before. Bob was certainly aware of the concept so I
presumed it had been discussed on the list.
> Do you have a schematic or photos of how to achieve this? Does this
> modification require the use of certain model(s) of ND alternator
> to function properly?
No, I have no photos or schematic. I would have to experiment on one.
I have worked inside the GM Delco alternators a lot as that is what I
have on the boat but I have never tried to hack a Nippon Denso
alternator. OTOH, alternators are all basically the same at the core.
There are only a few ways you can make a self-exciting alternator. It
shouldn't be too hard to do no matter which alternator you have.
> Charlie Kuss
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
=97 Antoine de Saint-Exup=E9ry
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator failure. Info provided |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
> No, I have no photos or schematic. I would have to experiment on one. I
> have worked inside the GM Delco alternators a lot as that is what I have
> on the boat but I have never tried to hack a Nippon Denso alternator.
> OTOH, alternators are all basically the same at the core. There are only
> a few ways you can make a self-exciting alternator. It shouldn't be too
> hard to do no matter which alternator you have.
Brian,
I'll be happy to mail you a brand new ND alternator to play with
(and keep) if you can find the time to do it. I would be most
interested in this type of modification. Just let me know.
Thanks,
Mickey
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
do not archive
Message 14
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| Subject: | 22000 MF Capacitor |
Gents,
I'm wiring my Rotax 912 and I have the above capacitor. I can't
understand
the markings on the two terminals. one of the terminals has a dab of
black
paint on it and the other is clear. Can someone tell me what the
polarity
of these two terminals is/are?
Many thanks,
Tommy Walker in Alabama
Do Not archive
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator failure. Info provided |
On Jul 1, 2006, at 4:18 PM, Mickey Coggins wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-
> matronics@rv8.ch>
>
>> No, I have no photos or schematic. I would have to experiment on
>> one. I have worked inside the GM Delco alternators a lot as that
>> is what I have on the boat but I have never tried to hack a Nippon
>> Denso alternator. OTOH, alternators are all basically the same at
>> the core. There are only a few ways you can make a self-exciting
>> alternator. It shouldn't be too hard to do no matter which
>> alternator you have.
>
> Brian,
>
> I'll be happy to mail you a brand new ND alternator to play with
> (and keep) if you can find the time to do it. I would be most
> interested in this type of modification. Just let me know.
Well, I am not sure when I would get around to it. Right now I am in
Ft. Lauderdale fixing the mess that is my boat. (I have been away for
most of a year and hurricane Wilma had her way with Take Two in the
mean time.) I fly to JAX tomorrow where I am going to get married on
Friday. I hope to make it to OSH. I don't know when I will be back in
the PRC (People's Republic of California for the uninitiated) to work
on anything.
Still, it isn't going to be that hard. If you remove the bolts
holding the two bells together with the stator pole pieces, the rear
bell with the regulator and brushes should come off. At that point
you will probably see how the regulator module and the diode trio are
connected. You will see the three leads of the diode trio going off
to connect to the various stator windings. The fourth terminal will
go to the regulator module. That is where the regulator gets its
power. Remove the diode trio and provide some sort of connection to
that terminal of the regulator. Feed your field power in there.
Probably the biggest question is how to do this and make it robust
enough to live inside the cowling of an airplane. My guess is that
one should find a convenient location in the rear bell to drill a
hole for an insulated bolt, much like the way the B-lead comes out.
Ah, but I am just rambling.
>
> Thanks,
> Mickey
>
>
> --
> Mickey Coggins
> http://www.rv8.ch/
> #82007 finishing
>
>
> do not archive
>
>
=========================
==========
> www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
=========================
==========
> wiki.matronics.com
=========================
==========
=========================
==========
>
>
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
=97 Antoine de Saint-Exup=E9ry
Message 16
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| Subject: | Alternator failure. Info provided |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Steve Thomas <lists@stevet.net>
FWIW, I have two Bosch alternators on my engine, and I just took them
to my local alternator shop. This guy has a sterling reputation and
he removed the internal regulators and provided a field wire for me
at a very reasonable price. Great solution for a ham-handed amateur.
Steve Thomas
________________________________________________________________________
On Jul 1, 2006, at 12:35 PM, Brian Lloyd wrote:
> Bob Nuckolls and I have exchanged email about this and, as I
> recall, he was concerned about asking people to take their
> alternator apart and possibly making it less reliable by not doing
> a good job with soldering or other workmanship inside the
> alternator. His point is a very good and valid one.
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator failure. Info provided (B&C value |
relia...
If we had anywhere near much data as verbiage, pehaps we could put this to
bed. Lots of assertions, still no data....
Mark do not archive
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| Subject: | Alternator Failure - Info provided |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
Kevin Horton is right. So is Brian. Those of us who have been reading this
list for a number of years may easily attest to tye believability of both
these two, Old Bob, Nuckolls and B&C.
We don't need anyone who has been reading for one day in a row to lecture
nor sass any of us.
Why would anyone complain of lack of evidence due to lack of evidence? If
the failures are not reported on one device, why would they be reported on
others (particularly cheaper editions)? Thus the evidence is unimportant if
that's the case.
Several gentlemen have staked their reputations - over the decade - in the
facts they support and I for one am prepared to believe them. The arrival of
late arriving tsk-tsk in bad form is not needed.
My choice is unaffected by Fred, George or Barry.
Ferg Kyle
Europa A064 914 Classic
Message 19
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| Subject: | Modifing an ND alternator regulator |
Brian,
The ND generic alternator uses a different way of powering the regulator.
The 3 diodes you mention are not used (missing from the design) in the ND
brand. The regulator gets its power directly from the "B" lead and the
connection is part of a bolted stack of connections that are not easy to
isolate for the builder.
The MI brand, also popular, as its small and light (for the 50+amp current
output) has the 3 diodes you mention and a simple snip of an internal link
does the job you suggest (also covered in the Contact! article {Years old
BTW}).
Its very easy to modify the regulator to make the alternator 100% external
regulation but the resulting modification requires a ground switching
external regulator, not the more common positive switching regulator (LR3
for example). Transpo and most other regulator manufacturers have both types
and have proven quite reliable in the trucking industry.
It does not seem easy to keep the internal regulator usable because of the
way the "B" lead is connected mechanically. Possible but only with some
mechanical mods which I would not recommend for most builders. Low cost
external regulators are a much better way to go; If one is worried about the
concerns, by many, about some failure modes of internal regulators.
The above modification takes around one hour from start of regulator removal
to completion and reassembly. No case splitting etc is required. Its very
simple to do. The end bells. bearings, and armature are not disturbed. A
really neat design for simple repairs etc. This approach does have one fault
mode of possible concern as the ground switch in the regulator can short.
This is simple to provide for with a relay as it only switches the field not
the HI current "B" lead.
This mod is 100% contained within the bolt on regulator module so getting a
replacement alternator that fits is much simpler as all you need do is
exchange the regulator with your converted one which is a 10 min task.
I am willing (if there is enough interest) to make a brand new PDF showing
the details with new pictures etc. It would take a couple of weeks to do as
this coming week is Arlington air show where I am a long time volunteer.
For the record I know of NO B&C alternator failure. I have in my possession
a failed LR3 regulator that burned up internally (part(s) charred) and did
not pop the CB!. I have not heard of any other LR3 failures so that pricey
system is very reliable in my opinion. The above (my) suggested approach is
around $100 (and up) for a brand new ND alternator Lester #14684, one hour
of your time, and a $25 ground switching regulator (no I do not have a part
number handy). I am not convinced there is any measurable reliability
difference for the extra $600+. The 14684 is rated for 18,000 rpm by the
manufacturer.
On the other hand I know of NO Brand New ND alternator (with internal
regulator) that failed except for quite a few where there was a crowbar
module and a common contactor in the "B" lead. That setup with (out
other/different parts etc) has both a theoretical analysis and demonstrated
high chance of failing a good alternator from false or intentional tripping.
The typical contactor is not designed to break the electrical load of the
alternator and the use of a diode across the contactor makes it 5-10 times
more likely the result will burn out the alternator that otherwise was good.
Also lots of used repaired alternators failing. Repaired is what is done,
rebuilt is misleading.
Thus, if you throw out the rebuilt failures and the crow bar/contactor
failures, I know of NO failures of the Stock new ND alternator.
The above for data demanders (I am one also)
Paul
PS I only post when my name comes up and I feel its important to comment.
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian Lloyd
To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 4:11 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Alternator failure. Info provided
Still, it isn't going to be that hard. If you remove the bolts holding the
two bells together with the stator pole pieces, the rear bell with the
regulator and brushes should come off. At that point you will probably see
how the regulator module and the diode trio are connected. You will see the
three leads of the diode trio going off to connect to the various stator
windings. The fourth terminal will go to the regulator module. That is where
the regulator gets its power. Remove the diode trio and provide some sort of
connection to that terminal of the regulator. Feed your field power in
there.
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| Subject: | Official AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines |
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Email Distribution of the List, however.
The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL:
http://forums.matronics.com
*********************************
*** Matronics Email List Wiki ***
*********************************
In an attempt to make it easy to store and find structured and often accessed
information, Matronics has installed a Wiki at:
http://wiki.matronics.com
The Wiki allows individuals to create web pages to contain useful information
for other users of the mailing lists and web site. Unlike an ordinary web page
where the content needs to be submitted to Matronics for inclusion, the Wiki
permits the users to construct their own pages and have them visible immediately.
While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be
comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any
images and email it to:
wiki-support@matronics.com
One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct
a Wiki page for you.
Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the
Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that
post and convert it into a Wiki page.
*********************
*** List Archives ***
*********************
A file containing of all of the previous postings to the AeroElectric-List is
available on line. The archive file information is available via the
Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below:
* AeroElectric-List.FAQ
- Latest version of the AeroElectric-List Frequently Asked Question
page (this document).
* AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete
- Complete file with most of the email header info removed and
page breaks inserted between messages.
* AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-??
- Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that
can more easily handled.
* AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete.zip
- Same as the AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete file above, but
in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
* AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete.Z
- Same as the AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete file above, but
in
UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
Download Via FTP
----------------
The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com
in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in
a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.)
ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives
Download Via Web
----------------
The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found
toward the bottom of the following web page:
http://www.matronics.com/archives
******************************************
*** Complete List Web Archive Browsing ***
******************************************
All messages posted to the AeroElectric-List are also available using the
Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages
in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed.
http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?AeroElectric
*****************************************
**** High-Speed Archive Search Engine ***
*****************************************
You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine
to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the
List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently
available List archives.
http://www.matronics.com/search
****************************
*** File and Photo Share ***
****************************
With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures
and other data with members of the List without having to forward a
copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email
them to:
pictures@matronics.com
!! ==> Please including the following information with each submission:
1) Email Lists that they are related to.
2) Your Full Name.
3) Your Email Address.
4) One line Subject description.
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic.
6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file
Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned
for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and
photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to
process them every few days.
Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be
sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new
Share is available and what the direct URL to it is.
For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main
Index Page:
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
**************************
*** List Archive CDROM ***
**************************
A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains
all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives
for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search
engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it
and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make
great gifts!
http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM
**********************************
*** List Support Contributions ***
**********************************
The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members.
You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of
annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages
associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November
I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month,
I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they
are comfortable.
I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the
Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated
by companies that are themselves List members.
Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists
including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server
system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many
many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the
variety of services found here.
Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary
and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains
value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude.
Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just
subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in.
The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are
a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and
sending a personal check.
If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to
support its continued operation?
http://www.matronics.com/contributions
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the AeroElectric-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the AeroElectric-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
AeroElectric-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the AeroElectric-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
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