---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 07/02/06: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:02 AM - Re: Alternator failure. Info provided (show me the data) () 2. 04:09 AM - Re: Alternator failure. Info provided (LarryRobertHelming) 3. 06:58 AM - Re: Re: Alternator failure. Info provided (show me the data) (Brian Lloyd) 4. 06:58 AM - Re: Modifing an ND alternator regulator (Brian Lloyd) 5. 08:21 AM - Re: Alternator failure. Info provided (JAMES BOWEN) 6. 08:21 AM - Re: Modifing an ND alternator regulator (Paul Messinger) 7. 08:30 AM - Sporty's, James, & Paintucation Videos for sale. (RV Builder (Michael Sausen)) 8. 09:14 AM - Re: Sporty's, James, & Paintucation Videos for sale. (Dale Ensing) 9. 09:21 AM - Re: Sporty's, James, & Paintucation Videos for sale. (Dave) 10. 05:01 PM - Re: Sporty's, James, & Paintucation Videos for sale. (RV Builder (Michael Sausen)) 11. 05:48 PM - Re: Sporty's, James, & Paintucation Videos for sale. (RV Builder (Michael Sausen)) 12. 06:49 PM - Re: Modifing an ND alternator regulator (Brian Lloyd) 13. 08:42 PM - Re: Modifing an ND alternator regulator (Paul Messinger) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:02:26 AM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Alternator failure. Info provided (show me the data) Dear: Terry, Fiveonepw, Richard & Fergus Good for you guys calling me on my data. I would say you should. Always have the same SHOW ME attitude when ever you hear any story of ANY alternator failure or reliability from any person., INCLUDING B&C. (That was my point.) People are willing to believe a slick brochure with out question. OK, You got me, NO B&C product has ever failed and in fact it's the perfect product. ha ha ha I AM KIDDING!!! The point to my many many many was to get your attention, and a response to a ZERO failure comment. Don't assume that the B&C product is perfect, that's all. It's an electromechanical part and subject to wear like any. Here are two items (search for B&C): http://www.lancair.net/sdr.html Windows Web Explorer (select edit, find on this page) Type in B&C You will find a wacky VR and bad connector. There have been many connector issues because B&C used some other kind of connector other than what you would find on a stock ND alternator with a molded plug or something like that. I can't tell you how to search the archives but the is data there. The failures vary. Bob N or B&C can tell you better than I. Also many issues have been improved. There have been nuisance O/V trips of the LR-3 voltage regulator (internal crow bar), another (minor) issue. Minor if VFR at least. I did a quick search and found stuff on the LR3 regulator with a search of this forum, areoelectric-list: Crowbar CB "problem" question Help with Diagnosis Alt Field Trip This was a quick check. Come on, point is stuff happens. There have been a returns of B&C alternators. Again not everyone reports them on this forum. Just ask B&C and they will tell you honestly I am sure. Common guys I am just trying to be real, ZERO failures? Kyle, you are astounding me with your logic. Like you all I ask for is facts, evidence. Just because we have no reported B&C failures handy, that does not mean there are none, right. You are the man of logic. I feel no need to impugn or find negatives about B&C, only that ZERO failure expectation is unreasonable, just from common sense, Murphy's law and experience. I am not in the market for a B&C product. I don't have the motivation, but with out checking I am sure the reliability is good. However is it significantly better than a NEW Nippondenso alternator installed and operated properly? May be, but I have no data, but than B&C does not really either. So their claims may be opinion? IF YOU really want to know the facts they are there are you should hold everyone (EVERYONE) accountable with real data, not claims of data. Ask B&C point blank, how many are in service and how many have been returned and for what reasons. What was done to solve the problem. If you pay $600-$700 for a B&C set up you are getting a quality product, no doubt. To debate if it is worth it is totally subjective. I think I made my self clear in the previous post and said all I want on the subject. Cheers George M. (good debate) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >From: "Terry Watson" > >You are the one making the claim, George. Give us some >evidence, or give it up. >From: Richard Dudley > >Hear hear!!! >Many of us would like the FACTS!!! >RHDudley >From: Fiveonepw@aol.com > >If we had anywhere near much data as verbiage, pehaps we >could put this to bed. Lots of assertions, still no data.... >From: "Fergus Kyle" > >Why would anyone complain of lack of evidence due to lack of evidence? >If the failures are not reported on one device, why would they be reported >on others (particularly cheaper editions)? Thus the evidence is >unimportant if that's the case. Several gentlemen have staked their >reputations - over the decade - in the facts they support and I for one >am prepared to believe them. The arrival of late arriving tsk-tsk in bad >form is not needed.My choice is unaffected by Fred, George or Barry. --------------------------------- How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messengers low PC-to-Phone call rates. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:09:47 AM PST US From: "LarryRobertHelming" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator failure. Info provided --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming" Does this guy do work by mail? If so, please give us his address and what is a reasonable price. I have a brand new ND look alike IR alt that I would like to have converted if your local alt. shop place is interested. Larry in Indiana ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 7:01 PM > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Steve Thomas > > FWIW, I have two Bosch alternators on my engine, and I just took them to > my local alternator shop. This guy has a sterling reputation and he > removed the internal regulators and provided a field wire for me at a > very reasonable price. Great solution for a ham-handed amateur. > > Steve Thomas > ________________________________________________________________________ > > > On Jul 1, 2006, at 12:35 PM, Brian Lloyd wrote: > >> Bob Nuckolls and I have exchanged email about this and, as I recall, he >> was concerned about asking people to take their alternator apart and >> possibly making it less reliable by not doing a good job with soldering >> or other workmanship inside the alternator. His point is a very good and >> valid one. > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > http://wiki.matronics.com > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:58:26 AM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Alternator failure. Info provided (show me the data) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd On Jul 2, 2006, at 6:50 AM, wrote: > Common guys I am just trying to be real, ZERO failures? If the MTBF of a device is long enough it is possible to not have *yet* experienced failures in the field. But I know that B&C has had failures. Bill said that the failures he had seen so far (many years ago) had come from installation problems, not from defects in the alternator. Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630 +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . Antoine de Saint-Exupry ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:58:26 AM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Modifing an ND alternator regulator --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd On Jul 2, 2006, at 1:34 AM, Paul Messinger wrote: > Brian, > > The ND generic alternator uses a different way of powering the > regulator. The 3 diodes you mention are not used (missing from the > design) in the ND brand. The regulator gets its power directly from > the "B" lead and the connection is part of a bolted stack of > connections that are not easy to isolate for the builder. That is odd. Without the diodes to provide isolation the battery would be providing power to the regulator even when the engine isn't running. Remember, most automobiles have the alternator connected to the battery all the time. This would drain the battery. I would like to see how they prevent the alternator from killing the battery. > The MI brand, also popular, as its small and light (for the 50+amp > current output) has the 3 diodes you mention and a simple snip of > an internal link does the job you suggest (also covered in the > Contact! article {Years old BTW}). I understand. Sounds like you wrote a good article. > Its very easy to modify the regulator to make the alternator 100% > external regulation but the resulting modification requires a > ground switching external regulator, not the more common positive > switching regulator (LR3 for example). Transpo and most other > regulator manufacturers have both types and have proven quite > reliable in the trucking industry. You might be able to break the path from the B-lead to the field and then have access to both field terminals. Then you can do what you want with it. And I agree, I prefer an externally regulated alternator myself. > It does not seem easy to keep the internal regulator usable because > of the way the "B" lead is connected mechanically. Possible but > only with some mechanical mods which I would not recommend for most > builders. Low cost external regulators are a much better way to go; > If one is worried about the concerns, by many, about some failure > modes of internal regulators. Never having seen the inside of a ND alternator I knew I was going out on a bit of a limb. But it might not be that hard. Heck, if you have people building a whole airframe you have to assume they have learned how to properly drill a hole and install a bolt in it. ;-) > > The above modification takes around one hour from start of > regulator removal to completion and reassembly. No case splitting > etc is required. Its very simple to do. The end bells. bearings, > and armature are not disturbed. A really neat design for simple > repairs etc. This approach does have one fault mode of possible > concern as the ground switch in the regulator can short. This is > simple to provide for with a relay as it only switches the field > not the HI current "B" lead. > > This mod is 100% contained within the bolt on regulator module so > getting a replacement alternator that fits is much simpler as all > you need do is exchange the regulator with your converted one which > is a 10 min task. > > I am willing (if there is enough interest) to make a brand new PDF > showing the details with new pictures etc. It would take a couple > of weeks to do as this coming week is Arlington air show where I am > a long time volunteer. I would certainly like to see it. Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way brianl at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630 +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) "Five percent of the people think. Ten percent of the people think they think. Eighty-five percent of the people would rather die than think." ---Thomas A. Edison Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630 +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . Antoine de Saint-Exupry ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:21:01 AM PST US From: "JAMES BOWEN" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator failure. Info provided --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "JAMES BOWEN" I too would be interested. Jim Bowen >From: "LarryRobertHelming" >To: >Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator failure. Info provided Date: >Sun, 2 Jul 2006 06:07:05 -0500 > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming" > > >Does this guy do work by mail? If so, please give us his address and what >is a reasonable price. I have a brand new ND look alike IR alt that I >would like to have converted if your local alt. shop place is interested. >Larry in Indiana >----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 7:01 PM > > >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Steve Thomas >> >>FWIW, I have two Bosch alternators on my engine, and I just took them to >>my local alternator shop. This guy has a sterling reputation and he >>removed the internal regulators and provided a field wire for me at a >>very reasonable price. Great solution for a ham-handed amateur. >> >>Steve Thomas >>________________________________________________________________________ >> >> >> >>On Jul 1, 2006, at 12:35 PM, Brian Lloyd wrote: >> >>>Bob Nuckolls and I have exchanged email about this and, as I recall, he >>>was concerned about asking people to take their alternator apart and >>>possibly making it less reliable by not doing a good job with soldering >>>or other workmanship inside the alternator. His point is a very good and >>>valid one. >> >> >> >> >>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >>http://wiki.matronics.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > >http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >http://wiki.matronics.com > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:21:05 AM PST US From: "Paul Messinger" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Modifing an ND alternator regulator --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Paul Messinger" The isolation is internal to the regulator to prevent high current drain when the battery is connected and the engine is off. The "IGN" lead controlls the "B" lead power to the regulator. There is some current drain which requires an auto to be started every 10-20 days to prevent large battery discharging which is not an issue in an aircraft. Its worth noting the ND regulator design for this ND series is 30 years old. The amount of standby drain varies with the specific regulator but I have seen as much as 90 ma in an auto. The start of this original failure thread had a comment that the IGN lead did not turn off the alternator. This tells me the "rebuilt alternator had a already failed regulator as a good ND regulator will turn on and off the power when running using the IGN lead. I guess this is a clear warning about rebuilt alternators and associated quality control :-( As for seperating the field, nothing is impossible but its not something I would want the average person to do and I see no point to having an internal regulator with total external control. I have looked into that and felt it was not for most people to try. Its hard to describe but the ND mechanical wiring is different from most alternators and that makes you idea harder to do. Go one way or the other(internal or external). There are 100% safe ways of disconnecting the "B" lead but a just a common contactor is not a safe way. The only contactor available at a "reasonable" price rated to open that circuit is the kilovac. Electrical parts (External to the common contactor) can be added to make the contactor safe but that is a different issue not included here. Paul ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 6:52 AM > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd > > > On Jul 2, 2006, at 1:34 AM, Paul Messinger wrote: > >> Brian, >> >> The ND generic alternator uses a different way of powering the >> regulator. The 3 diodes you mention are not used (missing from the >> design) in the ND brand. The regulator gets its power directly from the >> "B" lead and the connection is part of a bolted stack of connections >> that are not easy to isolate for the builder. > > That is odd. Without the diodes to provide isolation the battery would be > providing power to the regulator even when the engine isn't running. > Remember, most automobiles have the alternator connected to the battery > all the time. This would drain the battery. I would like to see how they > prevent the alternator from killing the battery. > >> The MI brand, also popular, as its small and light (for the 50+amp >> current output) has the 3 diodes you mention and a simple snip of an >> internal link does the job you suggest (also covered in the Contact! >> article {Years old BTW}). > > I understand. Sounds like you wrote a good article. > >> Its very easy to modify the regulator to make the alternator 100% >> external regulation but the resulting modification requires a ground >> switching external regulator, not the more common positive switching >> regulator (LR3 for example). Transpo and most other regulator >> manufacturers have both types and have proven quite reliable in the >> trucking industry. > > You might be able to break the path from the B-lead to the field and then > have access to both field terminals. Then you can do what you want with > it. And I agree, I prefer an externally regulated alternator myself. > >> It does not seem easy to keep the internal regulator usable because of >> the way the "B" lead is connected mechanically. Possible but only with >> some mechanical mods which I would not recommend for most builders. Low >> cost external regulators are a much better way to go; If one is worried >> about the concerns, by many, about some failure modes of internal >> regulators. > > Never having seen the inside of a ND alternator I knew I was going out on > a bit of a limb. But it might not be that hard. Heck, if you have people > building a whole airframe you have to assume they have learned how to > properly drill a hole and install a bolt in it. ;-) > >> >> The above modification takes around one hour from start of regulator >> removal to completion and reassembly. No case splitting etc is required. >> Its very simple to do. The end bells. bearings, and armature are not >> disturbed. A really neat design for simple repairs etc. This approach >> does have one fault mode of possible concern as the ground switch in the >> regulator can short. This is simple to provide for with a relay as it >> only switches the field not the HI current "B" lead. >> >> This mod is 100% contained within the bolt on regulator module so >> getting a replacement alternator that fits is much simpler as all you >> need do is exchange the regulator with your converted one which is a 10 >> min task. >> >> I am willing (if there is enough interest) to make a brand new PDF >> showing the details with new pictures etc. It would take a couple of >> weeks to do as this coming week is Arlington air show where I am a long >> time volunteer. > > I would certainly like to see it. > > Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way > brianl at lloyd dot com Folsom, CA 95630 > +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) > > "Five percent of the people think. > Ten percent of the people think they think. > Eighty-five percent of the people would rather die than think." > ---Thomas A. Edison > > > Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way > brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630 > +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) > > I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . > Antoine de Saint-Exupry > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > http://wiki.matronics.com > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:30:49 AM PST US From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Sporty's, James, & Paintucation Videos for sale. Guys & gals, I'm going through my stuff as I get ready to move from TX to WI and have some Sporty's, Sam James, and Paintucation DVD's I don't need. They are: - Instrument Proficiency Check DVD $20 http://www.sportys.com/acb/showdetl.cfm?&did=19&Product_ID=6680 - Flight Review DVD $30 http://www.sportys.com/acb/showdetl.cfm?&did=19&Product_ID=6487 - Airspace & Weather Format Review DVD $20 http://www.sportys.com/acb/showdetl.cfm?&did=19&Product_ID=6023 - Pantucation 5 DVD Set $140 http://www.paintucation.com/ - James Aircraft - Aircraft Painting 101 DVD $15 http://www.buildersbooks.com/Painting101.htm?36,57 - James Aircraft - Fiberglass 101 DVD $15 http://www.buildersbooks.com/fiberglass_101.htm?29,49 Shipping's included via USPS. Contact me off list if anyone is interested. Michael Sausen RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage Do Not Archive Recent RV-10 Build Activity ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:14:38 AM PST US From: "Dale Ensing" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Sporty's, James, & Paintucation Videos for sale. Michael Sausen I'll take the James Painting DVD. Please send your email address. Dale Ensing ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:21:24 AM PST US From: "Dave" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Sporty's, James, & Paintucation Videos for sale. Michael, Sorry to the list, I couldn't find your email address to reply off list. SO Do not Archive. I will buy your Sam James Fiberglass DVD. Email me off the list so we can work out the payment stuff. Thanks Dave dave(at)coltnet.net ----- Original Message ----- From: RV Builder (Michael Sausen) To: rv10-list@matronics.com ; rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 8:28 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Sporty's, James, & Paintucation Videos for sale. Guys & gals, I'm going through my stuff as I get ready to move from TX to WI and have some Sporty's, Sam James, and Paintucation DVD's I don't need. They are: - Instrument Proficiency Check DVD $20 http://www.sportys.com/acb/showdetl.cfm?&did=19&Product_ID=6680 - Flight Review DVD $30 http://www.sportys.com/acb/showdetl.cfm?&did=19&Product_ID=6487 - Airspace & Weather Format Review DVD $20 http://www.sportys.com/acb/showdetl.cfm?&did=19&Product_ID=6023 - Pantucation 5 DVD Set $140 http://www.paintucation.com/ - James Aircraft - Aircraft Painting 101 DVD $15 http://www.buildersbooks.com/Painting101.htm?36,57 - James Aircraft - Fiberglass 101 DVD $15 http://www.buildersbooks.com/fiberglass_101.htm?29,49 Shipping's included via USPS. Contact me off list if anyone is interested. Michael Sausen RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage Do Not Archive Recent RV-10 Build Activity ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:01:35 PM PST US From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Sporty's, James, & Paintucation Videos for sale. Dave, thanks for the response. Some one beat you to them though. Sorry. Michael Sausen ________________________________ [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 11:17 AM for sale. Michael, Sorry to the list, I couldn't find your email address to reply off list. SO Do not Archive. I will buy your Sam James Fiberglass DVD. Email me off the list so we can work out the payment stuff. Thanks Dave dave(at)coltnet.net ----- Original Message ----- From: RV Builder (Michael Sausen) To: rv10-list@matronics.com ; rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 8:28 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Sporty's, James, & Paintucation Videos for sale. Guys & gals, I'm going through my stuff as I get ready to move from TX to WI and have some Sporty's, Sam James, and Paintucation DVD's I don't need. They are: - Instrument Proficiency Check DVD $20 http://www.sportys.com/acb/showdetl.cfm?&did=19&Product_ID=6680 - Flight Review DVD $30 http://www.sportys.com/acb/showdetl.cfm?&did=19&Product_ID=6487 - Airspace & Weather Format Review DVD $20 http://www.sportys.com/acb/showdetl.cfm?&did=19&Product_ID=6023 - Pantucation 5 DVD Set $140 http://www.paintucation.com/ - James Aircraft - Aircraft Painting 101 DVD $15 http://www.buildersbooks.com/Painting101.htm?36,57 - James Aircraft - Fiberglass 101 DVD $15 http://www.buildersbooks.com/fiberglass_101.htm?29,49 Shipping's included via USPS. Contact me off list if anyone is interested. Michael Sausen RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage Do Not Archive Recent RV-10 Build Activity ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:48:21 PM PST US From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Sporty's, James, & Paintucation Videos for sale. The James videos are gone as are the Sporty's Flight Review and the Sporty's Airspace and Weather (thanks Dean and DJ). I decided to break out the Paintucation videos so you can pick and choose. So here is what I still have: - Sporty's Instrument Proficiency Check DVD for $20 - Paintucation's Paint Your Own Car DVD for $25 - Paintucation's Color Sanding and Buffing DVD for $25 - Paintucation's Metal Prep & Rust Repair DVD for $25 - Paintucation's Body Shop Basics! DVD for $25 - Paintucation's Xtreme Detailing! DVD for $25 Thanks again. Not trying to SPAM the list, I really hope someone gets as much use out of these as I did! I really liked the Paintucation videos, very well done. I'll throw them on eBay after the holidays if I don't get any other bites. Michael Sausen Do Not Archive ________________________________ Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 10:28 AM 'aeroelectric-list@matronics.com' Guys & gals, I'm going through my stuff as I get ready to move from TX to WI and have some Sporty's, Sam James, and Paintucation DVD's I don't need. They are: - Instrument Proficiency Check DVD $20 http://www.sportys.com/acb/showdetl.cfm?&did=19&Product_ID=6680 - Flight Review DVD $30 http://www.sportys.com/acb/showdetl.cfm?&did=19&Product_ID=6487 - Airspace & Weather Format Review DVD $20 http://www.sportys.com/acb/showdetl.cfm?&did=19&Product_ID=6023 - Pantucation 5 DVD Set $140 http://www.paintucation.com/ - James Aircraft - Aircraft Painting 101 DVD $15 http://www.buildersbooks.com/Painting101.htm?36,57 - James Aircraft - Fiberglass 101 DVD $15 http://www.buildersbooks.com/fiberglass_101.htm?29,49 Shipping's included via USPS. Contact me off list if anyone is interested. Michael Sausen RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage Do Not Archive Recent RV-10 Build Activity ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:49:47 PM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Modifing an ND alternator regulator --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd On Jul 2, 2006, at 11:21 AM, Paul Messinger wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Paul Messinger" > > > The isolation is internal to the regulator to prevent high current > drain when the battery is connected and the engine is off. The > "IGN" lead controlls the "B" lead power to the regulator. There is > some current drain which requires an auto to be started every 10-20 > days to prevent large battery discharging which is not an issue in > an aircraft. Its worth noting the ND regulator design for this ND > series is 30 years old. The amount of standby drain varies with the > specific regulator but I have seen as much as 90 ma in an auto. > > The start of this original failure thread had a comment that the > IGN lead did not turn off the alternator. This tells me the > "rebuilt alternator had a already failed regulator as a good ND > regulator will turn on and off the power when running using the IGN > lead. I guess I read this a different way. If the regulator has power applied and there are enough electrons flowing to allow the IGN lead to control the behavior of the regulator, the regulator is "on" to some extent. Kind of like most consume electronics that are drawing power and doing things with their microprocessors even when they are "off". Just because you turn the switch to "off" doesn't mean it isn't drawing power and doing something. > > I guess this is a clear warning about rebuilt alternators and > associated quality control :-( > > As for seperating the field, nothing is impossible but its not > something I would want the average person to do and I see no point > to having an internal regulator with total external control. I have > looked into that and felt it was not for most people to try. Its > hard to describe but the ND mechanical wiring is different from > most alternators and that makes you idea harder to do. That is certainly a possibility. I have no experience with the ND alternator. > > Go one way or the other(internal or external). There are 100% safe > ways of disconnecting the "B" lead but a just a common contactor is > not a safe way. The only contactor available at a "reasonable" > price rated to open that circuit is the kilovac. Electrical parts > (External to the common contactor) can be added to make the > contactor safe but that is a different issue not included here. And that issue has already been beaten to death. Having the pass/ switch transistor fail shorted will cause any IR alternator to turn on hard with no way to turn it off. It seemed to me if we could control the field excitation externally we could truly turn off the alternator. I will now shut up about this. I plan to get a B&C alternator as B&C already has the mounting and adaptor plates for the Russian radial engine. I don't plan to use an ND alternator. Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630 +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . Antoine de Saint-Exupry ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:42:18 PM PST US From: "Paul Messinger" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Modifing an ND alternator regulator --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Paul Messinger" ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 6:42 PM > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd > > On Jul 2, 2006, at 11:21 AM, Paul Messinger wrote: > >> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Paul Messinger" >> >> >> The isolation is internal to the regulator to prevent high current drain >> when the battery is connected and the engine is off. The "IGN" lead >> controlls the "B" lead power to the regulator. There is some current >> drain which requires an auto to be started every 10-20 days to prevent >> large battery discharging which is not an issue in an aircraft. Its >> worth noting the ND regulator design for this ND series is 30 years old. >> The amount of standby drain varies with the specific regulator but I >> have seen as much as 90 ma in an auto. >> >> The start of this original failure thread had a comment that the IGN >> lead did not turn off the alternator. This tells me the "rebuilt >> alternator had a already failed regulator as a good ND regulator will >> turn on and off the power when running using the IGN lead. > > I guess I read this a different way. If the regulator has power applied > and there are enough electrons flowing to allow the IGN lead to control > the behavior of the regulator, the regulator is "on" to some extent. Kind > of like most consume electronics that are drawing power and doing things > with their microprocessors even when they are "off". Just because you > turn the switch to "off" doesn't mean it isn't drawing power and doing > something. You missed my point. The output power IE the "B" lead amps are controlled by the IGN input when the regulator has not failed. The ref ND did not do this meaning the regulator already had failed to some extent when it was sold as rebuilt. The "latch on mode" as stated is NOT what a fully working ND regulator does. The IGN lead does turn on and off the output of the alternator exactly as an external regulator when its working properly. And it can be safely turned on and off when in use. Hi alternators latch on and cannot be turned off when running. My point is the rebuilt ND was already failed to some extent when first sold and that is a good reason to never use a rebuilt. I also feel there is no need to continue this thread. Paul Back to listen only mode.