Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:06 AM - Alternator Belt (Charles Brame)
2. 04:03 AM - Re: Alternator Belt (Ed Anderson)
3. 04:37 AM - Re: Alternator Belt (LarryRobertHelming)
4. 05:11 AM - Re: Re: Insrument Lighting (FLYaDIVE@aol.com)
5. 05:38 AM - Re: Load Meter Question (FLYaDIVE@aol.com)
6. 05:41 AM - Re: alternator failure modes (FLYaDIVE@aol.com)
7. 05:49 AM - Re: Re: Insrument Lighting (John Schroeder)
8. 06:15 AM - Re: Alternator Belt (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
9. 06:27 AM - Re: Instrument Lighting was Re: Insrument (Charlie Kuss)
10. 06:35 AM - Re: Alternator failure thoughts (Charlie Kuss)
11. 06:42 AM - Re: Alternator Belt (Charlie Kuss)
12. 06:42 AM - Re: Alternator failure thoughts (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
13. 06:50 AM - Re: Load Meter Question (Brian Lloyd)
14. 06:53 AM - Re: Charging System (Brian Lloyd)
15. 07:12 AM - alternator temperature sensor (Brian Lloyd)
16. 07:12 AM - Re: Alternator failure thoughts (Brian Lloyd)
17. 07:44 AM - Re: Alternator failure thoughts (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
18. 07:54 AM - Tragic news (brian bollaert)
19. 07:54 AM - Re: Re: Insrument Lighting (Harold)
20. 07:56 AM - Re: Alternator Belt (FLYaDIVE@aol.com)
21. 08:30 AM - Re: Tragic news (James Clark)
22. 09:25 AM - Re: Re: Insrument Lighting (Dj Merrill)
23. 09:39 AM - Sport Aviation 7/2006 article - Avionics Master (Brett Ferrell)
24. 09:54 AM - Re: Tragic news (Terry Watson)
25. 10:11 AM - Re: Tragic news (Jeffery J. Morgan)
26. 10:27 AM - Alternator Belt (James H Nelson)
27. 10:46 AM - alternator health (Brian Lloyd)
28. 11:17 AM - Re: Alternator failure thoughts ()
29. 11:17 AM - Re: alternator health (Jerry Grimmonpre)
30. 11:31 AM - Re: Instrument lighting (rd2@evenlink.com)
31. 11:31 AM - Re: Alternator Belt ()
32. 11:38 AM - Re: alternator health (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
33. 12:45 PM - Re: Re: Instrument lighting (Brian Lloyd)
34. 12:45 PM - Re: alternator health (Brian Lloyd)
35. 01:14 PM - Re: Re: Instrument lighting (Ken)
36. 03:18 PM - Re: Alternator Belt (William Slaughter)
37. 03:20 PM - Re: Alternator failure thoughts ()
38. 04:01 PM - Re: Sport Aviation 7/2006 article - (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
39. 07:40 PM - Re: Alternator failure thoughts (Charlie Kuss)
40. 07:44 PM - Re: Re: Instrument lighting (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
41. 08:02 PM - Re: Battery Contactor - HOT... (Marty Martin)
42. 08:02 PM - Re: Alternator failure thoughts (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
43. 08:14 PM - Re: alternator health (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
44. 08:27 PM - Re: Alternator failure thoughts (Brian Lloyd)
45. 10:20 PM - Re: alternator health (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
46. 10:34 PM - Re: Alternator Belt (Kelly McMullen)
47. 10:46 PM - VM-1000 current sensor question (DEAN PSIROPOULOS)
48. 11:54 PM - Re: Alternator Belt (FLYaDIVE@aol.com)
Message 1
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charles Brame <chasb@satx.rr.com>
A recent post regarding alternator abuse mentioned using an
automotive belt on the alternator rather than an aircraft belt.
That's the first I ever heard regarding an "aircraft alternator
belt." I always thought a V- belt is a V-belt.
The belt furnished with my B&C 60 Amp alternator was too short. I
replaced it with a belt from an auto parts store. Seems to work okay.
Am I asking for trouble?
Charlie Brame
RV-6A N11CB
San Antonio
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: Alternator Belt |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ed Anderson" <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
Charlie, I've found that good quality auto V belts like made by GATES give
no problem. However, I have had some poor experience with lesser quality
brands. I only use GATES belts myself.
Ed
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson@carolina.rr.com
http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 4:59 AM
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charles Brame <chasb@satx.rr.com>
>
> A recent post regarding alternator abuse mentioned using an automotive
> belt on the alternator rather than an aircraft belt. That's the first I
> ever heard regarding an "aircraft alternator belt." I always thought a V-
> belt is a V-belt.
>
> The belt furnished with my B&C 60 Amp alternator was too short. I
> replaced it with a belt from an auto parts store. Seems to work okay.
>
> Am I asking for trouble?
>
> Charlie Brame
> RV-6A N11CB
> San Antonio
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
> http://wiki.matronics.com
>
>
>
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Alternator Belt |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming" <lhelming@sigecom.net>
No problem. Just be sure you got a good one. Vans aircraft recommends using
a Yates belt. I would not use a no name special, Stick with a strong
brand name and premium grade. Larry in Indiana
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 3:59 AM
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charles Brame <chasb@satx.rr.com>
>
> A recent post regarding alternator abuse mentioned using an automotive
> belt on the alternator rather than an aircraft belt. That's the first I
> ever heard regarding an "aircraft alternator belt." I always thought a V-
> belt is a V-belt.
>
> The belt furnished with my B&C 60 Amp alternator was too short. I
> replaced it with a belt from an auto parts store. Seems to work okay.
>
> Am I asking for trouble?
>
> Charlie Brame
> RV-6A N11CB
> San Antonio
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
> http://wiki.matronics.com
>
>
>
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: RE: Insrument Lighting |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com
Jerry:
I hate the place, but take a ride to Radio Shack. Get an LM-317 voltage
regulator, right on the packaging there is a schematic of how to build and what
parts are required for a very effective voltage regulator.
The hardest and most frustrating part is dealing with the total mental
midgets behind the counter. They don't know the difference between a diode,
resistor or a capacitor. And god forbid, they get off their ass and look for
something or say anything more than, "If you don't see it we don't have it." Or,
"Want to buy a cell phone?"
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: Load Meter Question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com
In a message dated 7/5/06 10:37:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
PeterHunt1@aol.com writes:
> Any thoughts on what may be
> causing this decrease in load meter reading?
>
> Pete in Clearwater
> RV-6, Reserve Grand Champion - Kit, Sun 'n Fun 2006
> All electric panel
> Heading for Oshkosh
==================================
Pete:
Let's make the assumption that the meter is reading correctly. Then there is
only two conditions considering all your above checks are correct.
The two conditions are really one just at different ends of the circuit.
Vibration has improved the connection(s). Either on the B+ side or on the Ground
side.
Since metal planes tend to use the plane as the common ground I have seen
quite a few problems solved by improving the systems grounds.
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: alternator failure modes |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com
In a message dated 7/5/06 7:53:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
brinker@cox-internet.com writes:
> If there's one thing I've noticed in my
> relatively short flying experiences is that airport folks are generally
> friendly and willing to help.
>
> Randy
================
Yup, as long as you keep away from the FBO's.
And look for the EAA types.
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: RE: Insrument Lighting |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Schroeder" <jschroeder@perigee.net>
Amen, brother.
It is a shame that they have migrated so far off the hobbyist pathways. In
fact, it is hard to find any electronics store fronts these days. There
are none in the Charlotte area anymore.
Cheers,
John
DO NOT ARCHIVE
On Thu, 6 Jul 2006 08:04:50 EDT, <FLYaDIVE@aol.com> wrote:
> The hardest and most frustrating part is dealing with the total mental
> midgets behind the counter. They don't know the difference between a
> diode,
> resistor or a capacitor. And god forbid, they get off their ass and
> look for
> something or say anything more than, "If you don't see it we don't have
> it." Or,
> "Want to buy a cell phone?"
--
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Alternator Belt |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 03:59 AM 7/6/2006 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charles Brame <chasb@satx.rr.com>
>
>A recent post regarding alternator abuse mentioned using an
>automotive belt on the alternator rather than an aircraft belt.
>That's the first I ever heard regarding an "aircraft alternator
>belt." I always thought a V- belt is a V-belt.
>
>The belt furnished with my B&C 60 Amp alternator was too short. I
>replaced it with a belt from an auto parts store. Seems to work okay.
There's no such thing as an "aircraft alternator belt". There
are thousands of belts by hundreds of manufacturers and they
range in SERVICE LIFE from mediocre to the best-we-know how
to do.
There may be folks who are on a par with GATES for the
manufacture of belts but I'm not personally familiar with
who they might be. Perhaps folks on the list who work in
that venue can offer some insight as to alternative brands.
>Am I asking for trouble?
Not if you've crafted your architecture and pilot's mind-set
for failure tolerant operation. Broken belts are but one of
many reasons an alternator might decided to quit. If you're
prepared to deal with an alternator failure on your own terms,
then no, you're not asking for trouble. But you may decided to
'upgrade' a belt because you're tired of replacing it. See
chapter 17 in the 'Connection.
I've seen airplanes at fly-ins where the owner has installed
a 'spare' belt over the prop shaft and secured it. This would
allow a failed belt to be replaced in the field without
pulling the prop. Given the extra-ordinary stress that a
belt gets when driving a small-pulley alternator such as
the B&C, it's probably money well spent to get the best.
Give B&C a call and ask about their experience with Gates
belts (that's the brand that probably came with your alternator).
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: Instrument Lighting was RE: Insrument |
Jerry,
I scanned the first page of the assembly sheet for the MPJA pulse
width controller. See
http://www.mpja.com/productview.asp?product=4057+MD
I've sent it to you off list. I can scan the 2nd page if this is not
enough. I've built 3 of these units. I had very little experience
with electronics kits previous to assembling these. The first unit
took 1.5 hours to build. (reading and understanding the
instructions) The third unit only took 0.5 hour to assemble. For a
dimmer circuit, the slide switch shown on the diagram can be omitted.
It's purpose is only to allow polarity reversal for reversing
direction of a motor.
Charlie Kuss
>Hey Guys,
> Thanks to Eric, Ken , and Charlie for your
> suggestions. However, I don't have any idea on how to build a PWM
> or variable duty cycle circuit. Do you guys have any schematics or
> more info? Thanks Charlie for including the link.
> I don't plan on disconnecting the instrument or covering it
> up. I have the g-meter lit for aesthetics and symmetry. I paid
> extra to have it lit, so I plan on using it.
> I called the manufacturer of the g-meter. The reason the
> instrument is so bright is that it actually has three bulbs drawing
> a total of 0.56. The company verified my amp draw correct for a 12
> v unit. So at least I know I have the right bulbs. I still need
> to dim it down a bit to make the brightness similar to the rest of
> the instruments. Bob K., do you have any ideas?
>
>Thank you,
>Jerry
>
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken
><<mailto:klehman@albedo.net?subject=Re:%20Instrument%20lighting&replyto=44A5201A.9050100@albedo.net>klehman@albedo.net>
>
>Hi Jerry
>I'd say you did it all correctly but you are just surprised at how much
>the 2.5 watts heats up a resistor. A 5 watt bulb is about what
>incandescent children's night lights are and does seem ridiculous for an
>instrument so I agree that is is the wrong bulb. I would leave it as is
>with your resistor. Second choice would be change the bulb to one that
>is really 12 volts. Third choice is a variable duty cycle circuit that
>pulses short 12 volt pulses to the lamp so that it averages the same
>power as running it on 5 volts. That avoids heating up a resistor and
>dumping the 2.5 watts but I doubt it is worth the trouble. Fourth choice
>is kind of silly but if you had another similar instrument you could
>wire them is series...
>Ken
>
>Jerry & Ledy Esquenazi wrote:
>
> > Hey Guys,
> > I have a simple problem that most likely has a simple solution.
> > The solution, however, eludes me. I have an internally lit g-meter on
> > my instrument panel (Don't ask me why :-)). The g-meter's lighting is
> > internal to the instrument, i.e. it's not a lighting tray that is
> > screwed to the top. The instrument would have to be opened up to get
> > to the lamp.
> >
> > I purchased the g-meter from Chief a while back ago, and when I
> > received it, I realized it was a 5v unit. Chief didn't have any other
> > lighting option listed or available. I thought about dropping the
> > voltage with a resistor. Before doing this I called the manufacturer
> > Wultrad (aka Falcon Gauge). They said they had a 12v unit in stock
> > that they could swap for mine. I thought... "great problem solved."
> > They shipped me one back with a 12v label over the original label. In
> > testing my instrument panel lighting, I discovered that the g-meter is
> > considerably brighter than the other instruments to the point it would
> > be annoying at night. The interesting thing is the light is nice and
> > white and very uniform though out the face of the instrument. Anyway,
> > I thought... "gee I'm back to putting in a resistor to dim the light!"
> >
> > "OK, no problem. I'll figure out what size resistor I need and
> > move on," I thought. The problem is the resistance of any
> > incandescent lamp changes whether it hot or cold. The lamp is drawing
> > 0.56 A at 12.0 v. Seem's like a lot to me. From that I deduced the
> > lamp's resistance at 21.3 ohm. The problem is that when I figure out
> > what size resistor I need to get say a 7 or 8 v voltage drop across
> > the lamp and add that resistor to the circuit, the current changes and
> > so does the resistance of the lamp. So how does one figure this stuff
> > out? I decided to purchase a potentiometer and install it in my
> > circuit, adjust it 'till I got the brightness I wanted and then
> > measure the resistance of the pot. In doing this I began to smell
> > smoke, the little pot was beginning to glow red as I dimmed down the
> > light in the instrument. I went back and purchased a heavier pot.
> > This did the trick. I decided a 20 ohm resistor in series would be
> > perfect. I purchased a 22 ohm, 2 W resistor, temporarily installed
> > it, and the light was perfect. The problem was I was still smelling
> > that familiar acrid smell. I had a 7.4 v drop across the resistor and
> > a .34 A current giving me 2.5 W to dissipate. I later tried two 10
> > ohm, 2 W resistors in series. Still, they got too hot. I purchased a
> > ceramic 22 ohm, 5 W resistor and it still got too hot to touch. The
> > small battery I was using for testing was putting out 12.2 v under the
> > load. I had a 7.4 v drop across the resistor, So I deduced I must be
> > getting a 4.8 v drop across the lamp. The light was just right. I
> > wonder if I still have a 5v lamp inside the instrument! I measured
> > 0.34 A in the circuit. The 5 W resistor ought to be handling the 2.5
> > W I need to dissipate just fine. Something is wrong. Do any of you
> > smart guys know what I'm doing wrong?
> >
> > Jerry
> > "Smelling smoke in Georgia
Message 10
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Subject: | Alternator failure thoughts |
Frank
All cars except Honda products, spin their alternators in the
opposite direction than Lycomings. Air is supposed to be sucked into
the alternator (longitudinally) at both the front and rear (fans at
both ends) and expelled through the grates in the center of the case
(radially). Correct fan rotation aids in cooling, as incoming air
from the cowl is going into the front of the alternator. Also,
cooling shrouds on the rear of the alternator are more effective. All
that said, Bob N says that using an ND off of a Toyota or other
vehicle won't greatly affect the cooling of the unit. The air will
simply be drawn in from the center and expelled out the ends.
Charlie Kuss
>Not sure i understand this "backwards turning" deal. Frome what i
>can see the internal fan alternators appear to have simply radial
>fan blades that simply throw air out thru the sides of the alt.
>Therby presumably sucking air in from both front and back.
>
>Adding a cool air supply to the regulator should therefore augment
>the existing fan. I am thinking of doing a similar thing by riveting
>something similar to the stamped rear cover of my Autozone Toyota
>Camry special.
>
>Cetainly couldn't hurt
>
>Frank
>
>
>----------
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Burnaby
>Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 8:55 AM
>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator failure thoughts
>
>I'm not flying yet, but my 60 A ND ER alternator (of undetermined
>auto application) has been modified by removing the stamped steel
>vented rear cover and replacing it with a fiberglass closed cover
>with a stub to accept a blast tube to force air over the diode
>plate, as an attempt to compensate for a backward turning alt fan.
>Aside from buying a B&C or Plane Power unit, is there a better way?
>Is this likely to have a positive effect?
>
>John
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: Alternator Belt |
>snipped
>
> There's no such thing as an "aircraft alternator belt". There
> are thousands of belts by hundreds of manufacturers and they
> range in SERVICE LIFE from mediocre to the best-we-know how
> to do.
>
> There may be folks who are on a par with GATES for the
> manufacture of belts but I'm not personally familiar with
> who they might be. Perhaps folks on the list who work in
> that venue can offer some insight as to alternative brands.
>snipped
> Bob . . .
Listers,
I will second the recommendation of Gates belts. On a par with
Gates is the OEM belt supplier for most Japanese cars. The
manufacturer is Bando. In the past year, I've found Bando belts
easily available from the after-market. I have only found one "off
brand" belt which compares to these two. The brand name is Force One.
It comes in a black and white cardboard sheath. My local parts
supplier carries this brand and I'm impressed with the quality. On
the other hand, I would not use a Dayco brand belt on a go kart!
Charlie Kuss
Message 12
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Subject: | Re: Alternator failure thoughts |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 08:55 AM 7/5/2006 -0700, you wrote:
>I'm not flying yet, but my 60 A ND ER alternator (of undetermined auto
>application) has been modified by removing the stamped steel vented rear
>cover and replacing it with a fiberglass closed cover with a stub to
>accept a blast tube to force air over the diode plate, as an attempt to
>compensate for a backward turning alt fan. Aside from buying a B&C or
>Plane Power unit, is there a better way? Is this likely to have a positive
>effect?
>
>John
Positive, forced air cooling of an alternator is never a bad thing
to do. The question that has always plagued the OBAM aircraft
community continues to be: "Is cooling necessary?"
Until we mount an effort to gather meaningful temperature data
internal to the alternator under various electrical loads and
flight conditions (hot-day, Vx climb), etc.
From the viewpoint of regulators who have blessed an
electrical load analysis based on what the alternator's nameplate
ratings, now they want to see if installation
issues (drive ratios and cooling) will produce the power
your load analysis claims.
We know that very few OBAM aircraft will ever need all of
the alternator's nameplate power. We also know that cooling
effectiveness of air movement under the cowl can be strongly
influenced by changes in baffling, cowl geometry, accessory
locations, belt ratios, etc.
The bright side of all this uncertainty is that few alternators
fail in OBAM aircraft for reasons obviously attributable to
heat . . . nonetheless, when some poor builder is on his
third in a string of alternator failures, cooling is one
of several things to be explored. The standard approach is to
add some form of blast cooling and hope the next alternator
survives.
In the past half-dozen or so seminars, I've offered to help
any interested builder in crafting a test plan and then
providing them with the data acquisition system that would
let us investigate alternator cooling issues on their
airplane. The same activity would work toward development of
a testing model and an article that might encourage others
to add further test data to the library. So far, no takers.
It occurs to me that recent discussions on alternator
"failures" may have suffered from a lack of definition for
the word. As a professional in TC aviation I've come to understand
that failures come in three broad classes: (1) failure due to
lack of due-diligence in observance of manufacturer's instructions.
(2) failure to meet design goals for operating performance.
(3) failure to meet reasonable (or guaranteed) expectations for
service life. In the TC aircraft world, "failure" is applied
to those devices that required replacement or disassembly for
refurbishment/upgrading.
The perception of value for service life is a BIG driver
in the supplier/consumer relationship. I recall a conversation
with one of our hangar renters at 1K1 who was telling me that
TBO on his ultra-light engine was about 300 hours! 2000 hour, TC
engine drivers sitting on the porch with us were aghast.
I remember thinking that was about 6 years of average flying.
He quickly followed up that he was already on his "second engine"
having overhauled it on a Saturday afternoon for $600 worth of
parts. Hmmmm $2/hr for parts. 6 hours labor. Not a "bad"
return on investment as long as the device wears in an orderly
manner such that the owner can choose when to do replacement
or refurbishment based on inspection.
When looking over the various postings on the 'net concerning
ANY product, one needs to sort out discussions for relevance
against your working definition of failure and a host of other
issues. These include user understanding for both the
basic physics of the system augmented with skill of the
writers of installation instructions. One can find a great
deal of discussion about a lot of products where root cause
of the discussion is NOT a failure of the product but
a customer service issue. This is where the manufacturer
has an opportunity to excel. One can have the best-we-know-
how-to-do product and still gather less-than-stellar reviews
if the customer doesn't get whatever support is necessary
for satisfactory installation and operation.
I can cite you a great example of how a once admired
supplier to RAC has crapped in their mess kit by failing
to go the extra mile with customer support. A product I
designed for them 25 years ago has been replaced under
warranty in the field at a cost of $millions$. It didn't take
much investigation to find that installation and trouble-shooting
instructions were poor. The supplier's attitude is that
"The parts go out of here meeting all quality assurance
requirements. We've done everything we signed up to do."
Nonetheless, hundreds of no-fault-found units get replaced for
lack of understanding. As far as purchasing is concerned,
the computer records don't lie. They see losses against that
part in $millions$, the project group thinks the supplier
is incompetent, the users just shrug it off as the high cost
of owning an airplane and the supplier says "we did what
we signed up to do." The thing that really irks me
personally is the fact that my name is on all the drawings
that define how the thing is built and few persons who
pick those drawings up see the big picture and understand
why there is so much grief. The easy and common thing to
do is curse those "ivory tower" engineers . . . My momma
told me that I would be judged by the company I keep.
Took me 40 years to understand what she was talking about.
The supplier is now on the @!#@-list and not likely
to get new business from that project group. The recipes
for success call for much more than the elegant design.
You need to be prepared to support your product from
cradle to grave whether problems are your fault or not.
Failure to do so can severely damage a perfectly good
reputation for really stupid reasons that start with
ignorance of the supporting simple-ideas.
Bob . . .
Message 13
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Subject: | Re: Load Meter Question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
On Jul 5, 2006, at 10:32 PM, PeterHunt1@aol.com wrote:
> Bob:
>
> When I first installed the load meter you sold me it read 25%.
> Now, with the same instruments/electrical equipment on it reads
> 16%. The decrease from 25% to 16% has taken place gradually over
> the past 20 hours of flight time and it just seems to me that this
> decrease is substantial. No lights, instruments or other
> electrical equipment have failed. Any thoughts on what may be
> causing this decrease in load meter reading?
Your battery may have been low in charge. Over the past 25 hours it
has finally reached full charge. That is all I can think of.
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
Message 14
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Subject: | Re: Charging System |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
On Jul 5, 2006, at 10:40 PM, Jim Butcher wrote:
> The aircraft is equipped with 3 ammeters - one on the battery
> positive and one on each alternator output. What I observed during
> flight and subsequent testing today is that the battery ammeter
> shows -3 amps (a 3 amp discharge) all the time, regardless of load
> - ie turning on pitot heat doesnt change the value - its still a
> 3 amp discharge. Data from flights prior to the maintenance showed
> 0 amps at this spot as expected. The problem is present with either
> alternator on line and both of them operate correctly, proven by
> loading heavily (pitot heat) and noting the amp output.
>
> Any suggestions on where to look? Might there be a problem with
> this battery where it cant accept a charge properly? The bus
> voltage runs 14.1 - 14.2 volts which is what B&C recommends.
If the bus voltage is 14.1 then the battery is charging. There is no
question about that. I would suspect the metering circuit.
Do you really have three ammeters or three shunts switched to one
ammeter? It sounds to me like you might have inadvertently switched
two of the leads to your shunt switch. (Presuming one ammeter).
Another possibility is that if you have hall-effect sensors the zero
setting on the one for the battery has become misadjusted.
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
Message 15
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Subject: | alternator temperature sensor |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Here is how Balmar senses temp on an alternator:
http://www.balmar.net/PDF/Temperaturesensormanuall.pdf
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
Message 16
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Subject: | Re: Alternator failure thoughts |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
On Jul 6, 2006, at 9:40 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
> <nuckollsr@cox.net>
>
> At 08:55 AM 7/5/2006 -0700, you wrote:
>
>> I'm not flying yet, but my 60 A ND ER alternator (of undetermined
>> auto application) has been modified by removing the stamped steel
>> vented rear cover and replacing it with a fiberglass closed cover
>> with a stub to accept a blast tube to force air over the diode
>> plate, as an attempt to compensate for a backward turning alt fan.
>> Aside from buying a B&C or Plane Power unit, is there a better
>> way? Is this likely to have a positive effect?
>>
>> John
>
> Positive, forced air cooling of an alternator is never a bad thing
> to do. The question that has always plagued the OBAM aircraft
> community continues to be: "Is cooling necessary?"
>
> Until we mount an effort to gather meaningful temperature data
> internal to the alternator under various electrical loads and
> flight conditions (hot-day, Vx climb), etc.
That might not be too hard to do. Interesting thing is that the
Balmar alternator controllers include a temp sensor for the
alternator. If the alternator gets too hot the controller reduces
alternator output. They just bolt a thermistor to the alternator case
much like we do with a CHT sensor. That shouldn't be hard to craft at
all.
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
Message 17
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Subject: | Alternator failure thoughts |
Like I said i have not pulled and alt apart to see what it has but
radial fans come in three forms...Simple spade blades, forward curved
centrifugal and backards curved centrifugal.
I would bet the fan is a rudimentary backwards curved design. Either way
the fan will still flow air in the correct direction but not as
efficiently...I.e its still a centrifugal fan that sucks air into the
middle and throw radially outwards.
I have never personally done this but my suspicion was just confirmed by
one of my techs here in the office.
Bottom line is then running backwards will equate to less cooling flow
but is this an issue...Without instrumentation its impossible to tell.
Frank
________________________________
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Charlie Kuss
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 6:33 AM
Frank
All cars except Honda products, spin their alternators in the opposite
direction than Lycomings. Air is supposed to be sucked into the
alternator (longitudinally) at both the front and rear (fans at both
ends) and expelled through the grates in the center of the case
(radially). Correct fan rotation aids in cooling, as incoming air from
the cowl is going into the front of the alternator. Also, cooling
shrouds on the rear of the alternator are more effective. All that said,
Bob N says that using an ND off of a Toyota or other vehicle won't
greatly affect the cooling of the unit. The air will simply be drawn in
from the center and expelled out the ends.
Charlie Kuss
Not sure i understand this "backwards turning" deal. Frome what
i can see the internal fan alternators appear to have simply radial fan
blades that simply throw air out thru the sides of the alt. Therby
presumably sucking air in from both front and back.
Adding a cool air supply to the regulator should therefore
augment the existing fan. I am thinking of doing a similar thing by
riveting something similar to the stamped rear cover of my Autozone
Toyota Camry special.
Cetainly couldn't hurt
Frank
________________________________
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [
mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
<mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com> ] On Behalf Of
John Burnaby
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 8:55 AM
To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator failure thoughts
I'm not flying yet, but my 60 A ND ER alternator (of
undetermined auto application) has been modified by removing the stamped
steel vented rear cover and replacing it with a fiberglass closed cover
with a stub to accept a blast tube to force air over the diode plate, as
an attempt to compensate for a backward turning alt fan. Aside from
buying a B&C or Plane Power unit, is there a better way? Is this likely
to have a positive effect?
John
Message 18
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "brian bollaert" <bbollaert@comcast.net>
Hello
It is with infinite sadness that I must inform you all that Brian was in a
plane crash with two other pilots on Saturday July 1. He was not in his RV
and he was not the pilot.
He really enjoyed all the input and comraderie he felt from you all . He is
going to be very sorely missed.
Please tell me how to unsubscribe from here.
Sincerely,
Rebecca Bollaert
rbollaert@comcast.com
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 7:11 AM
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
>
> Here is how Balmar senses temp on an alternator:
>
> http://www.balmar.net/PDF/Temperaturesensormanuall.pdf
>
> Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
> brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630
> +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
>
> I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
> Antoine de Saint-Exupry
>
>
Message 19
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Subject: | Re: RE: Insrument Lighting |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Harold" <kayce33@earthlink.net>
I live on the wrong coast, but I've been to FRYS south of Portland, seems as
if they have something for everyone.
Harold
Message 20
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Subject: | Re: Alternator Belt |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com
In a message dated 7/6/06 9:17:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nuckollsr@cox.net
writes:
> There's no such thing as an "aircraft alternator belt". There
> are thousands of belts by hundreds of manufacturers and they
> range in SERVICE LIFE from mediocre to the best-we-know how
> to do.
======================================
Don't tell that to the FAA!
Here are the part numbers:
ALT BELT: 37A19773-37 <--- FAA Approved and with an FAA - PMA stamp. This
is the Gates Automotive equivalent: (gates belt 3V375).
Now, as I have stated before, there are quality differences. I have noted
that when it comes to Original Timing Belts and Serpentine Belts. The FACTORY
ORIGINAL is of much better quality than OEM or Auto Store items. See my long
post with explanation ... It should be in the archives.
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
Message 21
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|
So sorry to hear that.
Click on the first link in the message below and then go and click on the
"Subscribe/Unsubscribe" link. It will be self explanatory from there.
James
On 7/6/06, brian bollaert <bbollaert@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "brian bollaert" <
> bbollaert@comcast.net>
>
> Hello
>
> It is with infinite sadness that I must inform you all that Brian was in
a
> plane crash with two other pilots on Saturday July 1. He was not in his
> RV
> and he was not the pilot.
>
> He really enjoyed all the input and comraderie he felt from you all . He
> is
> going to be very sorely missed.
>
> Please tell me how to unsubscribe from here.
>
> Sincerely,
>
>
> Rebecca Bollaert
> rbollaert@comcast.com
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 7:11 AM
>
>
> > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <
> brian-yak@lloyd.com>
> >
> > Here is how Balmar senses temp on an alternator:
> >
> > http://www.balmar.net/PDF/Temperaturesensormanuall.pdf
> >
> > Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
> > brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630
> > +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
> >
> > I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . .
.
> > =97 Antoine de Saint-Exup=E9ry
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
=========================
===========
=========================
===========
=========================
===========
=========================
===========
>
>
--
This is an alternate email. Please continue to email me at
james@nextupventures.com .
Message 22
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Subject: | Re: RE: Insrument Lighting |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dj Merrill <deej@deej.net>
On Thu, 6 Jul 2006, Harold wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Harold" <kayce33@earthlink.net>
>
> I live on the wrong coast, but I've been to FRYS south of Portland, seems as
> if they have something for everyone.
> Harold
If I remember correctly, the ILS 18 approach to Lebanon NH (KLEB)
is HAMMM, BURGR, FRYYS... *grin*
-Dj
do not archive
Message 23
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Subject: | Sport Aviation 7/2006 article - Avionics Master |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Brett Ferrell" <bferrell@123mail.net>
Bob,
I'd love to hear your opinion on the "The Avionics Master - to Protect and
Defend" article in the July Sport Aviation, page 119 by George Wilhlmsen. I
don't know if you recieve it or not, it appears to not be available online
http://www.eaa.org/benefits/sportaviation/0607_toc.html though I could
probably scan it for you.
Brett
Message 24
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" <terry@tcwatson.com>
For those of you in other parts of the country or world who would not be
aware of Rebecca Bollaert's loss, here is the story from the Seattle Times
last Sunday.
Terry
Three Western Washington men killed in small-plane crash
By The Associated Press
DAVENPORT, Wash. - Three Western Washington men were killed when the
experimental aircraft they were in crashed during an attempted landing at
Seven Bays Airport west of Spokane.
The Lincoln County sheriff's office identified the victims as Charles W.
McCanna, 74, and Brian G. Bollaert, 56, both of Federal Way, and Michael B.
Ekholm, 50, of Monroe, KOMO Television reported Sunday.
The single-engine, homemade aircraft was registered to McCanna. It went down
Saturday afternoon about 30 miles north of Davenport in Lincoln County, said
FAA spokesman Mike O'Connor. Staff from the agency's Spokane office were
investigating, he said.
Witnesses said the plane's propeller hit the side of a gully, flipping it as
the pilot tried to land the plane.
"An eyewitness said they saw the plane in a pretty deep banking turn" before
crashing, said Kelly Watkins, chief criminal investigator for the Lincoln
County sheriff's office.
Copyright C 2006 The Seattle Times Company
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "brian bollaert"
<bbollaert@comcast.net>
Hello
It is with infinite sadness that I must inform you all that Brian was in a
plane crash with two other pilots on Saturday July 1. He was not in his RV
and he was not the pilot.
He really enjoyed all the input and comraderie he felt from you all . He is
going to be very sorely missed.
Please tell me how to unsubscribe from here.
Sincerely,
Rebecca Bollaert
rbollaert@comcast.com
>
>
Message 25
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jeffery J. Morgan" <jmorgan@compnetconcepts.com>
Thanks for the info.
Anyone know more info, such as how the prop hit a gully, but the wings
didn't? Is the airport in a valley? Being from not there, just trying
to get a picture.
Thanks
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry
Watson
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 11:52 AM
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Terry Watson"
--> <terry@tcwatson.com>
For those of you in other parts of the country or world who would not be
aware of Rebecca Bollaert's loss, here is the story from the Seattle
Times last Sunday.
Terry
Three Western Washington men killed in small-plane crash
By The Associated Press
DAVENPORT, Wash. - Three Western Washington men were killed when the
experimental aircraft they were in crashed during an attempted landing
at Seven Bays Airport west of Spokane.
The Lincoln County sheriff's office identified the victims as Charles W.
McCanna, 74, and Brian G. Bollaert, 56, both of Federal Way, and Michael
B.
Ekholm, 50, of Monroe, KOMO Television reported Sunday.
The single-engine, homemade aircraft was registered to McCanna. It went
down Saturday afternoon about 30 miles north of Davenport in Lincoln
County, said FAA spokesman Mike O'Connor. Staff from the agency's
Spokane office were investigating, he said.
Witnesses said the plane's propeller hit the side of a gully, flipping
it as the pilot tried to land the plane.
"An eyewitness said they saw the plane in a pretty deep banking turn"
before crashing, said Kelly Watkins, chief criminal investigator for the
Lincoln County sheriff's office.
Copyright C 2006 The Seattle Times Company
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "brian bollaert"
<bbollaert@comcast.net>
Hello
It is with infinite sadness that I must inform you all that Brian was in
a plane crash with two other pilots on Saturday July 1. He was not in
his RV and he was not the pilot.
He really enjoyed all the input and comraderie he felt from you all .
He is going to be very sorely missed.
Please tell me how to unsubscribe from here.
Sincerely,
Rebecca Bollaert
rbollaert@comcast.com
>
>
Message 26
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: James H Nelson <rv9jim@juno.com>
Charlie,
I sell V-Belts for a living and other assorted sundry for
industrial items like bearings. There is two styles of "V" belts. one
configuration is "industrial" and the other is "automotive". The
difference is in the angle that makes the v-belt. The automotive is a
narrow "V" and the industrial "V" is a wider angle "V".. Industrial
belts are designated by their size. The first letter or number usually
designates the top width. Such as A-35 belt. This is a 1/2" wide belt
that is 35" in circumference on the inside. A 4L370 is physically the
same just a light duty "A" series. (don't ask !!) Think of the "L"
meaning light duty. There is a series called "3V or 3VX that is almost
the exact match to the belts used on aircraft engines. I will bring
home a 3vx belt and check it out on my engine. That should put the
confusion and sources to rest.
Jim Nelson
Message 27
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|
Subject: | alternator health |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Bob, I loved your original alternator health-O-meter. How about a new
one that measures:
1. alternator load;
2. alternator voltage;
3. field voltage;
4. alternator frame temperature;
all in a single, compact, 2.25" instrument.
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
Message 28
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|
Subject: | Alternator failure thoughts |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <chaztuna@adelphia.net>
Frank
Thank you for correcting my misguided notion that running these fans backwards
would reverse the direction of air flow.
Charlie Kuss
---- "Hinde wrote:
> Like I said i have not pulled and alt apart to see what it has but
> radial fans come in three forms...Simple spade blades, forward curved
> centrifugal and backards curved centrifugal.
>
> I would bet the fan is a rudimentary backwards curved design. Either way
> the fan will still flow air in the correct direction but not as
> efficiently...I.e its still a centrifugal fan that sucks air into the
> middle and throw radially outwards.
>
> I have never personally done this but my suspicion was just confirmed by
> one of my techs here in the office.
>
> Bottom line is then running backwards will equate to less cooling flow
> but is this an issue...Without instrumentation its impossible to tell.
>
> Frank
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Charlie Kuss
> Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 6:33 AM
>
>
> Frank
> All cars except Honda products, spin their alternators in the opposite
> direction than Lycomings. Air is supposed to be sucked into the
> alternator (longitudinally) at both the front and rear (fans at both
> ends) and expelled through the grates in the center of the case
> (radially). Correct fan rotation aids in cooling, as incoming air from
> the cowl is going into the front of the alternator. Also, cooling
> shrouds on the rear of the alternator are more effective. All that said,
> Bob N says that using an ND off of a Toyota or other vehicle won't
> greatly affect the cooling of the unit. The air will simply be drawn in
> from the center and expelled out the ends.
> Charlie Kuss
>
>
>
>
> Not sure i understand this "backwards turning" deal. Frome what
> i can see the internal fan alternators appear to have simply radial fan
> blades that simply throw air out thru the sides of the alt. Therby
> presumably sucking air in from both front and back.
>
> Adding a cool air supply to the regulator should therefore
> augment the existing fan. I am thinking of doing a similar thing by
> riveting something similar to the stamped rear cover of my Autozone
> Toyota Camry special.
>
> Cetainly couldn't hurt
>
> Frank
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [
> mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> <mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com> ] On Behalf Of
> John Burnaby
> Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 8:55 AM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator failure thoughts
>
> I'm not flying yet, but my 60 A ND ER alternator (of
> undetermined auto application) has been modified by removing the stamped
> steel vented rear cover and replacing it with a fiberglass closed cover
> with a stub to accept a blast tube to force air over the diode plate, as
> an attempt to compensate for a backward turning alt fan. Aside from
> buying a B&C or Plane Power unit, is there a better way? Is this likely
> to have a positive effect?
>
> John
>
Message 29
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|
Subject: | Re: alternator health |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jerry Grimmonpre" <jerry@mc.net>
I'll second that motion ....
It'll make trouble shooting easier.
Jerry Grimmonpre'
Do no archive
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Bob, I loved your original alternator health-O-meter. How about a new
one that measures:
1. alternator load;
2. alternator voltage;
3. field voltage;
4. alternator frame temperature;
all in a single, compact, 2.25" instrument.
Brian Lloyd
Message 30
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Subject: | Re: Instrument lighting |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: rd2@evenlink.com
Would PWM be suitable for LEDs also?
Rumen
_____________________Original message __________________________
(received from Eric Ekberg; Date: 09:32 AM 7/4/2006
-0500)
________________________________________________________________
I think what you did is fine, resistors are designed to get hot. However,
if you want to reduce voltage efficiently use a simple PWM (pulse width
modulated) voltage regulator circuit - you can build them for a dollar or
two, they just use one IC and 2 or 3 resistors, and sometimes a heatsink.
Look in one of the electronic catalogs. You can do a google search and
come up with the design examples.
eric
do not archive
On 6/30/06, Jerry & Ledy Esquenazi
<<mailto:jlinga@mchsi.com>jlinga@mchsi.com> wrote:
Hey Guys,
I have a simple problem that most likely has a simple solution. The
solution, however, eludes me. I have an internally lit g-meter on my
instrument panel (Don't ask me why :-)). The g-meter's lighting is
internal to the instrument, i.e. it's not a lighting tray that is screwed
to the top. The instrument would have to be opened up to get to the lamp.
I purchased the g-meter from Chief a while back ago, and when I
received it, I realized it was a 5v unit. Chief didn't have any other
lighting option listed or available. I thought about dropping the voltage
with a resistor. Before doing this I called the manufacturer Wultrad (aka
Falcon Gauge). They said they had a 12v unit in stock that they could swap
for mine. I thought... "great problem solved." They shipped me one back
with a 12v label over the original label. In testing my instrument panel
lighting, I discovered that the g-meter is considerably brighter than the
other instruments to the point it would be annoying at night. The
interesting thing is the light is nice and white and very uniform though
out the face of the instrument. Anyway, I thought... "gee I'm back to
putting in a resistor to dim the light!"
"OK, no problem. I'll figure out what size resistor I need and move
on," I thought. The problem is the resistance of any incandescent lamp
changes whether it hot or cold. The lamp is drawing 0.56 A at 12.0 v.
Seem's like a lot to me. From that I deduced the lamp's resistance at 21.3
ohm. The problem is that when I figure out what size resistor I need to
get say a 7 or 8 v voltage drop across the lamp and add that resistor to
the circuit, the current changes and so does the resistance of the lamp.
So how does one figure this stuff out? I decided to purchase a
potentiometer and install it in my circuit, adjust it 'till I got the
brightness I wanted and then measure the resistance of the pot. In doing
this I began to smell smoke, the little pot was beginning to glow red as I
dimmed down the light in the instrument. I went back and purchased a
heavier pot. This did the trick. I decided a 20 ohm resistor in series
would be perfect. I purchased a 22 ohm, 2 W resistor, temporarily
installed it, and the light was perfect. The problem was I was still
smelling that familiar acrid smell. I had a 7.4 v drop across the resistor
and a .34 A current giving me 2.5 W to dissipate. I later tried two 10
ohm, 2 W resistors in series. Still, they got too hot. I purchased a
ceramic 22 ohm, 5 W resistor and it still got too hot to touch. The small
battery I was using for testing was putting out 12.2 v under the load. I
had a 7.4 v drop across the resistor, So I deduced I must be getting a 4.8
v drop across the lamp. The light was just right. I wonder if I still
have a 5v lamp inside the instrument! I measured 0.34 A in the circuit.
The 5 W resistor ought to be handling the 2.5 W I need to dissipate just
fine. Something is wrong. Do any of you smart guys know what I'm doing
wrong?
Jerry
"Smelling smoke in Georgia"
Message 31
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Subject: | Re: Alternator Belt |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <chaztuna@adelphia.net>
James,
I am aware of the industrial Gates belts. I've also seen Gates heavy duty belts
referred to as Green Stripe. Are the Green Stripe Gates brand belts the same
as the industrial quality units? I often see these used in heavy machinery or
in medium and heavy duty trucks. Your recommendation to use the industrial quality
belts is well founded.
However, for the pilot who is AOG due to a broken belt, he may not be able to
find an industrial supplier close by the airport or open (weekends ya' know).
That means he has to resort to an auto or farm supply store. He still has a chance
of getting a good quality belt, if he knows what to ask for.
Thanks for adding to this discussion.
Charlie Kuss
---- James H Nelson <rv9jim@juno.com> wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: James H Nelson <rv9jim@juno.com>
>
> Charlie,
> I sell V-Belts for a living and other assorted sundry for
> industrial items like bearings. There is two styles of "V" belts. one
> configuration is "industrial" and the other is "automotive". The
> difference is in the angle that makes the v-belt. The automotive is a
> narrow "V" and the industrial "V" is a wider angle "V".. Industrial
> belts are designated by their size. The first letter or number usually
> designates the top width. Such as A-35 belt. This is a 1/2" wide belt
> that is 35" in circumference on the inside. A 4L370 is physically the
> same just a light duty "A" series. (don't ask !!) Think of the "L"
> meaning light duty. There is a series called "3V or 3VX that is almost
> the exact match to the belts used on aircraft engines. I will bring
> home a 3vx belt and check it out on my engine. That should put the
> confusion and sources to rest.
>
>
> Jim Nelson
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 32
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Subject: | alternator health |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Just suck the data into an engine monitor like a Dynon and set an alarm
on each parameter.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jerry
Grimmonpre
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 11:14 AM
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jerry Grimmonpre"
--> <jerry@mc.net>
I'll second that motion ....
It'll make trouble shooting easier.
Jerry Grimmonpre'
Do no archive
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd
--> <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
Bob, I loved your original alternator health-O-meter. How about a new
one that measures:
1. alternator load;
2. alternator voltage;
3. field voltage;
4. alternator frame temperature;
all in a single, compact, 2.25" instrument.
Brian Lloyd
Message 33
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Subject: | Re: Instrument lighting |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
On Jul 6, 2006, at 1:53 PM, rd2@evenlink.com wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: rd2@evenlink.com
>
> Would PWM be suitable for LEDs also?
Yes.
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
Message 34
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Subject: | Re: alternator health |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
On Jul 6, 2006, at 2:35 PM, Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George
> (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
> Just suck the data into an engine monitor like a Dynon and set an
> alarm
> on each parameter.
The only problem with that is, at least in the case of field voltage
or field current, it varies all over the map. It is proportional to
load (goes up when load is increased) and inversely proportional to
RPM (goes down as RPM increases). This means you have to know what
both the load and the RPM are doing to make sense of the field
voltage reading. I suspect that people will poke at the button and
get a feel for what the field voltage should be in cruise with a
normal load. If it jumps up then they will know that something has
changed in their alternator. This is not something you can set a hard
limit on.
BTW, Bob, I want one in a 24V flavor too. Maybe we should just use a
4-digit DVM.
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
Message 35
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Subject: | Re: Instrument lighting |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
Yes that works very well but as a rule you still need the current
limiting resistor. LED's draw so little power that a simple linear
regulator may be a bit easier and cheaper and may not even require a
heatsink. While you can put LED's and incandescant lamps on the same
dimmer they are unlikely to dim evenly so two different dimmers might be
required if you are picky about uniformly dimming panel lights. There
are ways of controlling multiple dimming circuits from one knob but of
course then one circuit failure can kill all the lights if that is a
concern.
Note that Bob has a LM-117 or LM-317 based linear regulator circuit for
a lamp dimmer on his aeroelectric site. Linear regulators are
essentially a solid state variable resistor and they dissipate as much
heat as a resistor would. But for panel lighting that may not be much
heat. I setup four of them in a row for panel dimming and they merely
get a bit warm. The efficiency is not much of an issue in an application
that doesn't require much power. A neat characteristic of these linear
regulators is that they protect themselves rather well from overheating
or short circuits so they are fairly resistant to abuse and they don't
generate noise. A PWM circuit may generate some electrical noise as it
rapidly switches the current on and off. I have seen some high end ANR
headsets that are sensitive to noise from some PWM panel dimmers.
Ken
rd2@evenlink.com wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: rd2@evenlink.com
>
>Would PWM be suitable for LEDs also?
>
>Rumen
>
>_____________________Original message __________________________
> (received from Eric Ekberg; Date: 09:32 AM 7/4/2006
>-0500)
>________________________________________________________________
>I think what you did is fine, resistors are designed to get hot. However,
>if you want to reduce voltage efficiently use a simple PWM (pulse width
>modulated) voltage regulator circuit - you can build them for a dollar or
>two, they just use one IC and 2 or 3 resistors, and sometimes a heatsink.
>Look in one of the electronic catalogs. You can do a google search and
>come up with the design examples.
>
>eric
>snip
>
Message 36
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "William Slaughter" <willslau@alumni.rice.edu>
The Green Stripe belt was/is a "premium" automotive version. I have no specs
on how premium it is, but back in the day it was the preferred belt for
racing Corvairs, where the belt had to go over two idler pulleys, making the
trip from the horizontal crankshaft pulley, then turning 90 degrees to drive
the cooling fan mounted on a vertical axis, then back down another 90 degree
turn to rejoin the crankshft pulley. As you can imagine, this setup on a
6000+ rpm motor was quite a workout for the belt. Generic belts wouldn't
last a day, but the Green Stripe belts gave good service.
William Slaughter
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
chaztuna@adelphia.net
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 1:08 PM
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <chaztuna@adelphia.net>
James,
I am aware of the industrial Gates belts. I've also seen Gates heavy duty
belts referred to as Green Stripe. Are the Green Stripe Gates brand belts
the same as the industrial quality units? I often see these used in heavy
machinery or in medium and heavy duty trucks. Your recommendation to use the
industrial quality belts is well founded.
However, for the pilot who is AOG due to a broken belt, he may not be able
to find an industrial supplier close by the airport or open (weekends ya'
know). That means he has to resort to an auto or farm supply store. He still
has a chance of getting a good quality belt, if he knows what to ask for.
Thanks for adding to this discussion. Charlie Kuss
---- James H Nelson <rv9jim@juno.com> wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: James H Nelson
> --> <rv9jim@juno.com>
>
> Charlie,
> I sell V-Belts for a living and other assorted sundry for
> industrial items like bearings. There is two styles of "V" belts. one
> configuration is "industrial" and the other is "automotive". The
> difference is in the angle that makes the v-belt. The automotive is a
> narrow "V" and the industrial "V" is a wider angle "V".. Industrial
> belts are designated by their size. The first letter or number
> usually designates the top width. Such as A-35 belt. This is a 1/2"
> wide belt that is 35" in circumference on the inside. A 4L370 is
physically the
> same just a light duty "A" series. (don't ask !!) Think of the "L"
> meaning light duty. There is a series called "3V or 3VX that is almost
> the exact match to the belts used on aircraft engines. I will bring
> home a 3vx belt and check it out on my engine. That should put the
> confusion and sources to rest.
>
>
> Jim Nelson
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 37
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Subject: | Re: Alternator failure thoughts |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <chaztuna@adelphia.net>
snipped
> >John
>
> Positive, forced air cooling of an alternator is never a bad thing
> to do. The question that has always plagued the OBAM aircraft
> community continues to be: "Is cooling necessary?"
>
> Until we mount an effort to gather meaningful temperature data
> internal to the alternator under various electrical loads and
> flight conditions (hot-day, Vx climb), etc.
snipped
>
> We know that very few OBAM aircraft will ever need all of
> the alternator's nameplate power. We also know that cooling
> effectiveness of air movement under the cowl can be strongly
> influenced by changes in baffling, cowl geometry, accessory
> locations, belt ratios, etc.
snipped
> In the past half-dozen or so seminars, I've offered to help
> any interested builder in crafting a test plan and then
> providing them with the data acquisition system that would
> let us investigate alternator cooling issues on their
> airplane. The same activity would work toward development of
> a testing model and an article that might encourage others
> to add further test data to the library. So far, no takers.
snipped
> Bob . . .
Bob,
Where would you suggest mounting a thermister on an alternator to monitor temperature?
Charlie Kuss
Message 38
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Subject: | Re: Sport Aviation 7/2006 article - |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 12:34 PM 7/6/2006 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Brett Ferrell"
><bferrell@123mail.net>
>
>Bob,
>
>I'd love to hear your opinion on the "The Avionics Master - to Protect and
>Defend" article in the July Sport Aviation, page 119 by George
>Wilhlmsen. I don't know if you recieve it or not, it appears to not be
>available online
>http://www.eaa.org/benefits/sportaviation/0607_toc.html though I could
>probably scan it for you.
I let my EAA membership lapse this year. I only go to OSH
every 5-10 years (more often to support a client). EAA
and Sport Aviation in particular have lost their roots.
I just don't find them inspiring any more. I recall
having done an article on avionics master switches
that was published in SA about 10 years ago but I don't
seem to have a copy on this computer. However, here's a longer
thread on the topic I captured from some forums back about
that same time:
See: http://aeroelectric.com/articles/avmaster.pdf
It's sad to see old flags being run up the pole and saluted
year after year.
The only argument with strength advanced by modern deacons
of the AVMaster Church is that, "not all products offered to
the OBAM aircraft community benefit from DO-160 style design."
My response is, "Why not?" It's easy to do, it's not a secret
process. The only reason folks get away with marketing
unnecessarily fragile equipment is because uneducated customers
will buy it . . . and then take pains to manually protect the
device from gremlins the manufacturer should have taken care of
by design.
NOT the way to advance the art and science of building airplanes.
Bob . . .
Message 39
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Subject: | Re: Alternator failure thoughts |
At 06:57 AM 7/5/2006, you wrote:
>In a message dated 7/4/2006 9:25:44 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>chaztuna@adelphia.net writes:
>For the purposes of the alternators we use, the rectifier is
>comprised of 6 diodes. These diodes can fail in two modes, open or
>short. Failing open (diode blows apart) is the more common
>failure mode. In this mode, each diode that fails will reduce the
>alternator's output by 1/6th.
>Charlie,
>
>Charlie:
>
>Why 6 diodes? Half wave rectification only requires 2 diodes. And
>Full wave reverification only requires 4 diodes. So why 6 and how
>are they hooked up?
>
>Barry
>"Chop'd Liver"
Barry,
The ND alternators actually DO have 8 diodes. 6 of these rectify
the AC current from the 3 windings of the stator into DC current. The
main function of the other two diodes is to prevent the battery from
discharging back into the alternator when the engine is not running.
You have to remember that a DC motor and a generator are very
similar. You apply current into a motor to create mechanical motion.
With a generator (or alternator in this case) you apply mechanical
motion and a magnetic field to create electrical current.
If either of these two isolation diodes were to fail short, the
battery would discharge into the alternator. The alternator would act
like a seized motor. The input current from the battery can not turn
over the engine, via the alternator's pulley and drive belt.
Have you ever had a vehicle which operated OK when driven daily.
Yet, if allowed to sit unused for a number of days, the vehicle would
have a dead battery? Shorted isolation diodes in the alternator are
one possible cause of this situation.
Charlie Kuss
Message 40
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Subject: | Re: Instrument lighting |
In a message dated 07/06/2006 1:33:31 PM Central Daylight Time,
rd2@evenlink.com writes:
Would PWM be suitable for LEDs also?
>>>
Absolutely- I've been using one of the Marlin P. Jones PWM motor speed
control kits (as recently mentioned by Charlie Kuss) on my panel lights for 3 years
with most satisfactory results. All LEDs (many!) thus fed appear to be happy
so far...
Mark
Message 41
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Subject: | Re: Battery Contactor - HOT... |
I have wing tip (3 light, white, (red or greed) & strobe. I'm putting the
firewall together, no engine to *rehang* as this was a flying Q200 to begin
with.
I woundering if I can just connect the battery to the leads that go to the
battery and check the lights for working condition.
Maybe I need to wait and rehang the motor.
Please let me know.
Greg Martin, martygmartin@gmail.com
Message 42
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Subject: | Re: Alternator failure thoughts |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 03:19 PM 7/6/2006 -0700, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <chaztuna@adelphia.net>
>
>snipped
>
> > >John
> >
> > Positive, forced air cooling of an alternator is never a bad thing
> > to do. The question that has always plagued the OBAM aircraft
> > community continues to be: "Is cooling necessary?"
> >
> > Until we mount an effort to gather meaningful temperature data
> > internal to the alternator under various electrical loads and
> > flight conditions (hot-day, Vx climb), etc.
>snipped
> >
> > We know that very few OBAM aircraft will ever need all of
> > the alternator's nameplate power. We also know that cooling
> > effectiveness of air movement under the cowl can be strongly
> > influenced by changes in baffling, cowl geometry, accessory
> > locations, belt ratios, etc.
>snipped
> > In the past half-dozen or so seminars, I've offered to help
> > any interested builder in crafting a test plan and then
> > providing them with the data acquisition system that would
> > let us investigate alternator cooling issues on their
> > airplane. The same activity would work toward development of
> > a testing model and an article that might encourage others
> > to add further test data to the library. So far, no takers.
>snipped
> > Bob . . .
>
>Bob,
> Where would you suggest mounting a thermister on an alternator to
> monitor temperature?
>Charlie Kuss
If we were doing the typical full-up temperature survey on an
alternator in flight, a thermocouple would be attached to:
front bearing casting
rear bearing casting
diode commoning-plate/heat-sink(s)
. . . and finally a thermocouple wedged into
a stator winding slot.
The DAS would record all thermocouples in the
alternator + temperature of incoming cooling
air, oat and probably one cht slot. This would
be a total of 8 or 9 devices. Temperatures would
be recorded about once every 2 seconds. I'd also
consider adding a couple of absolute pressure
transducers for Palt and Ptotal.
We would also record alternator load (I have some
precision servoed hall-effect sensors that are easy
to install over the b-lead). If this were a certification
effort, we'd have to install a load bank to load the
machine to nameplate rated output. However, getting
three sets of data at min, max and some intermediate
load generated by your on-board systems is generally
sufficient to extrapolate max load conditions with
fair accuracy.
Lots of hardware but stuff I keep in inventory
(my shop is the last of the 'skunk werks' left at
RAC). The laptop is a klunky ol' dos machine
running a Power Basic utility that queries two
A/D converters modules and writes comma-delimited
text files to disk that can be easily sucked into
Excel for plotting and analysis.
It's easy to set in the right seat, start recording
process and forget it until after shutdown. Just
keep a time of day log of flight conditions to be
achieved as part of a test plan.
You game? We could make some real history here and
actually KNOW something about a typical OBAM alternator
installation.
Bob . . .
Message 43
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Subject: | Re: alternator health |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
Hmmmm . . . I thought about this and I'm not sure that there's a
very good return on investment. An alternator is like prop-governor
or fuel pump, it's either working or it isn't. It's a really good
idea to see how hot you're getting under worst case conditions as-installed
and if those numbers don't make you mess yer drawers, then it's
unlikely that any form of instrumentation would give you an advance
warning of impending failure. The most likely scenario is that your
supper-whizzy alternator watch-dog will bark the same time the low-voltage
warning light comes on.
Now, if a builder was interested in monitoring how close the alternator
is to being maxed-out for present loads -AND- RPM the simple field voltage
tap I've described in the Z-figures is a good thing to watch.
Most alternators on Lycomings run a field voltage of less than 8 volts
even at max load while in cruise conditions. Anything over 8 volts
says that you might have a stator lead or a diode opening thus crippling
the alternator.
I helped chase a rat out of a Falco's alternator system a couple of years
ago. We
put a temporary field voltmeter wire on the alternator and strung it
back to the cabin by taping it to the outside of the airplane. It took
about ten minutes in flight to observe field voltage surging upward at
the same time the loadmeter was going down. This told us that the brushes
were intermittent. On teardown, the brushes were not worn but one of them
would hang up in the holder due to some kind of gucky on the side of the
brush that didn't get tacky and troublesome until the alternator was warmed
up and subject to engine vibration at the same time. Several bench tests
at the parts store failed to spot the problem.
Bob . . .
At 03:40 PM 7/6/2006 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
>
>
>On Jul 6, 2006, at 2:35 PM, Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) wrote:
>
>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George
>>(Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
>>
>>Just suck the data into an engine monitor like a Dynon and set an
>>alarm
>>on each parameter.
>
>The only problem with that is, at least in the case of field voltage
>or field current, it varies all over the map. It is proportional to
>load (goes up when load is increased) and inversely proportional to
>RPM (goes down as RPM increases). This means you have to know what
>both the load and the RPM are doing to make sense of the field
>voltage reading. I suspect that people will poke at the button and
>get a feel for what the field voltage should be in cruise with a
>normal load. If it jumps up then they will know that something has
>changed in their alternator. This is not something you can set a hard
>limit on.
>
>BTW, Bob, I want one in a 24V flavor too. Maybe we should just use a
>4-digit DVM.
>
>Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
>brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630
>+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
>
>I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
> Antoine de Saint-Exupry
>
>
>--
>
>
>-- incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
>Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
Message 44
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Subject: | Re: Alternator failure thoughts |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
On Jul 6, 2006, at 11:01 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> If we were doing the typical full-up temperature survey on an
> alternator in flight, a thermocouple would be attached to:
>
> front bearing casting
> rear bearing casting
> diode commoning-plate/heat-sink(s)
> . . . and finally a thermocouple wedged into
> a stator winding slot.
You know, the marine and RV alternator guys have solved these
problems. I bet they have some good data.
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
Message 45
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Subject: | Re: alternator health |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 01:14 PM 7/6/2006 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jerry Grimmonpre" <jerry@mc.net>
>
>I'll second that motion ....
>It'll make trouble shooting easier.
>Jerry Grimmonpre'
>Do no archive
>
>
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
>
>Bob, I loved your original alternator health-O-meter. How about a new
>one that measures:
>
>1. alternator load;
>2. alternator voltage;
>3. field voltage;
>4. alternator frame temperature;
>
>all in a single, compact, 2.25" instrument.
We could program a version of the AEC9011 to
watch load (hall effect sensor), field voltage
and temperature and light a warning light.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
Message 46
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Subject: | Re: Alternator Belt |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com>
I know some Piper owners have received belt from Piper dealer in a Gates
sleeve, with the Gates number on the belt, and the Piper number hand
written in silver pen on the belt. I don't know for sure that it was an
automotive number, but believe that is correct. 9335XL Green Stripe or
9335HD. Piper number 73965-015 formerly #452-541
James H Nelson wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: James H Nelson <rv9jim@juno.com>
>
> Charlie,
> I sell V-Belts for a living and other assorted sundry for
> industrial items like bearings. There is two styles of "V" belts. one
> configuration is "industrial" and the other is "automotive". The
> difference is in the angle that makes the v-belt. The automotive is a
> narrow "V" and the industrial "V" is a wider angle "V".. Industrial
> belts are designated by their size. The first letter or number usually
> designates the top width. Such as A-35 belt. This is a 1/2" wide belt
> that is 35" in circumference on the inside. A 4L370 is physically the
> same just a light duty "A" series. (don't ask !!) Think of the "L"
> meaning light duty. There is a series called "3V or 3VX that is almost
> the exact match to the belts used on aircraft engines. I will bring
> home a 3vx belt and check it out on my engine. That should put the
> confusion and sources to rest.
>
>
> Jim Nelson
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Subject: | VM-1000 current sensor question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" <dean.psiropoulos@verizon.net>
I've been looking at this VM1000 current sensor (it looks like some sort of
hall effect sensor with 4 terminals, it's a coil you slide over the wire, no
connection needed). Originally I had it on the feed line from the alternator
but realized that I would only get readings of zero and greater than zero on
the display if I did that. So I thought I'd put it around the fat wire that
connects to the battery positive terminal and get both discharge and charge
readings. But....re-reading the VM-1000 manual and looking at their display
silk-screening, it appears that the display is only designed to read a
positive rate of charge from the alternator (0 to +60 amps). I don't have
everything connected yet so I can't actually fire it up and test it.
You VM1000 users, is this true? Does it NOT read and display negative
amperes when the battery is discharging and the alternator is not running
(or failed)? Is everyone installing this sensor on the alternator feed line
or are some of you doing something else??? if so what???? and why? Thanks.
Dean Psiropoulos
RV-6A N197DM
Plodding along to blissful completion.
Message 48
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Subject: | Re: Alternator Belt |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com
In a message dated 7/6/06 9:17:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nuckollsr@cox.net
writes:
> There's no such thing as an "aircraft alternator belt". There
> are thousands of belts by hundreds of manufacturers and they
> range in SERVICE LIFE from mediocre to the best-we-know how
> to do.
======================================
Don't tell that to the FAA!
Here are the part numbers:
ALT BELT: 37A19773-37 <--- FAA Approved and with an FAA - PMA stamp. This
is the Gates Automotive equivalent: (gates belt 3V375).
Now, as I have stated before, there are quality differences. I have noted
that when it comes to Original Timing Belts and Serpentine Belts. The FACTORY
ORIGINAL is of much better quality than OEM or Auto Store items. See my long
post with explanation ... It should be in the archives.
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
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