---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 07/07/06: 26 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:01 AM - Re: VM-1000 current sensor question (Ralph E. Capen) 2. 05:25 AM - pulse width module (Fergus Kyle) 3. 05:27 AM - Re: VM-1000 current sensor question (Jerry & Ledy Esquenazi) 4. 05:38 AM - Re: Alternator failure thoughts (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 05:38 AM - Re: Battery Contactor - HOT... (Ken) 6. 05:47 AM - Re: Instrument lighting (rd2@evenlink.com) 7. 06:19 AM - Re: VM-1000 current sensor question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 8. 06:50 AM - Re: Battery Contactor - HOT... (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 9. 06:50 AM - Re: Alternator failure thoughts (Brian Lloyd) 10. 07:20 AM - Re: Insrument Lighting (Jerry2DT@aol.com) 11. 07:20 AM - Fw: Re: Alternator failure thoughts (Charlie Kuss) 12. 08:34 AM - VM-1000 current sensor question () 13. 09:42 AM - Re: VM-1000 current sensor question (Ralph E. Capen) 14. 11:26 AM - Re: Battery Contactor - HOT... (Don Honabach) 15. 12:07 PM - 4 cycle - cycle (FLYaDIVE@aol.com) 16. 12:07 PM - Re: alternator failure modes (FLYaDIVE@aol.com) 17. 12:26 PM - Re: 4 cycle - cycle (BPA) 18. 12:30 PM - Re: 4 cycle - cycle (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 19. 12:47 PM - Re: 4 cycle - cycle (Brian Lloyd) 20. 12:53 PM - Re: alternator failure modes (Brian Lloyd) 21. 03:00 PM - Re: VM-1000 current sensor question (Bob C.) 22. 03:42 PM - Re: VM-1000 current sensor question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 23. 05:03 PM - Re: VM-1000 current sensor question (Brian Lloyd) 24. 07:05 PM - Re: Re: Insrument Lighting (Peter Laurence) 25. 08:44 PM - Re: 4 cycle - cycle (FLYaDIVE@aol.com) 26. 08:44 PM - Re: 4 cycle - cycle (FLYaDIVE@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:01:02 AM PST US From: "Ralph E. Capen" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: VM-1000 current sensor question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ralph E. Capen" I'm in a similar situation as Dean - except I have most of my electrical system up and functioning. My amp sensor is in the equivalent place of the feed line and could only show current being generated by the alternators. My instruction manual shows the 'minus' bar on the display page implying that the unit could display current draw and supply - but I can't figure out how to wire it so both situations would be discernable to the transducer......the only solutions that I have come up with involve A) two wires passing throught the transducer - one 'flowing' in each direction...under normal operation one would carry generated current - under failure operation (of the alternators) the other would carry drawn current or B) two transducers with a switch to select which one is being displayed...one transducer would show the generated current and the other would show drawn current. The VM1000 instruction manual indicates that the transducer is to be placed to measure generated current from what I remember reading and does not provide for reading of drawn current - even though the unit is implied to be able to display either mode. Maybe we need to get Vision Microsystems to weigh in n this one.....I'll send out a note to them..... Ralph Capen ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 1:43 AM > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" > > > I've been looking at this VM1000 current sensor (it looks like some sort > of > hall effect sensor with 4 terminals, it's a coil you slide over the wire, > no > connection needed). Originally I had it on the feed line from the > alternator > but realized that I would only get readings of zero and greater than zero > on > the display if I did that. So I thought I'd put it around the fat wire > that > connects to the battery positive terminal and get both discharge and > charge > readings. But....re-reading the VM-1000 manual and looking at their > display > silk-screening, it appears that the display is only designed to read a > positive rate of charge from the alternator (0 to +60 amps). I don't have > everything connected yet so I can't actually fire it up and test it. > > You VM1000 users, is this true? Does it NOT read and display negative > amperes when the battery is discharging and the alternator is not running > (or failed)? Is everyone installing this sensor on the alternator feed > line > or are some of you doing something else??? if so what???? and why? > Thanks. > > > Dean Psiropoulos > RV-6A N197DM > Plodding along to blissful completion. > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:25:06 AM PST US From: "Fergus Kyle" Subject: AeroElectric-List: pulse width module --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" Charlie, "Jerry, I scanned the first page of the assembly sheet for the MPJA pulse width controller. See http://www.mpja.com/productview.asp?product=4057+MD I've sent it to you off list. The first unit took 1.5 hours to build. (reading and understanding the instructions) " I tried your source for which my thanks. Unfortunately they are unaware that 'alien' beings can pay from away but ship internally. For some obscure reason your dental Xrays must co-ordinate with your shoe size or they won't deign to sell (VISA is actually good in several townships). So much for NAFTA - remember "free" trade? Anyway, when they grow up I'll buy. But thanks for the trouble. Ferg Kyle Europa A064 914 Classic ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:27:08 AM PST US From: "Jerry & Ledy Esquenazi" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: VM-1000 current sensor question Guys, When I installed my VM1000C, I had the same question and called the company. The display will not show negative numbers. The current sensor is designed to be used as a loadmeter and not a battery ammeter. The voltage will generally give you a good indication whether or not the battery is charging. Jerry --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ralph E. Capen" I'm in a similar situation as Dean - except I have most of my electrical system up and functioning. My amp sensor is in the equivalent place of the feed line and could only show current being generated by the alternators. My instruction manual shows the 'minus' bar on the display page implying that the unit could display current draw and supply - but I can't figure out how to wire it so both situations would be discernable to the transducer......the only solutions that I have come up with involve A) two wires passing throught the transducer - one 'flowing' in each direction...under normal operation one would carry generated current - under failure operation (of the alternators) the other would carry drawn current or B) two transducers with a switch to select which one is being displayed...one transducer would show the generated current and the other would show drawn current. The VM1000 instruction manual indicates that the transducer is to be placed to measure generated current from what I remember reading and does not provide for reading of drawn current - even though the unit is implied to be able to display either mode. Maybe we need to get Vision Microsystems to weigh in n this one.....I'll send out a note to them..... Ralph Capen ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 1:43 AM > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" > > > I've been looking at this VM1000 current sensor (it looks like some sort > of > hall effect sensor with 4 terminals, it's a coil you slide over the wire, > no > connection needed). Originally I had it on the feed line from the > alternator > but realized that I would only get readings of zero and greater than zero > on > the display if I did that. So I thought I'd put it around the fat wire > that > connects to the battery positive terminal and get both discharge and > charge > readings. But....re-reading the VM-1000 manual and looking at their > display > silk-screening, it appears that the display is only designed to read a > positive rate of charge from the alternator (0 to +60 amps). I don't have > everything connected yet so I can't actually fire it up and test it. > > You VM1000 users, is this true? Does it NOT read and display negative > amperes when the battery is discharging and the alternator is not running > (or failed)? Is everyone installing this sensor on the alternator feed > line > or are some of you doing something else??? if so what???? and why? > Thanks. > > > Dean Psiropoulos > RV-6A N197DM > Plodding along to blissful completion ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:38:18 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator failure thoughts --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 11:24 PM 7/6/2006 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd > >On Jul 6, 2006, at 11:01 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > >> If we were doing the typical full-up temperature survey on an >> alternator in flight, a thermocouple would be attached to: >> >> front bearing casting >> rear bearing casting >> diode commoning-plate/heat-sink(s) >> . . . and finally a thermocouple wedged into >> a stator winding slot. > >You know, the marine and RV alternator guys have solved these >problems. I bet they have some good data. Don't understand "problem" . . . the goal is to confirm the influence of the installation in a particular airplane. If you have an off-the-shelf alternator in hand, the hardware has already been crafted to meet design goals that are generally confirmed independently of the installation. A typical installation study for the purpose of acquiring a TC or STC involves looking at the same points of interest as-installed as the manufacturer of the alternator looked at during their laboratory qual testing and making sure that installed stresses are not alarmingly greater than those encountered during qualification. People have killed perfectly good hardware by not understanding and accommodating it's limits in a new installation. Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:38:18 AM PST US From: Ken Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery Contactor - HOT... --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken Go for it Marty. I don't see how you can harm anything as long as you don't have any bare wires hanging there that might short. Was there some particular concern that you had? Ken Marty Martin wrote: > > > I have wing tip (3 light, white, (red or greed) & strobe. I'm putting > the firewall together, no engine to rehang as this was a flying Q200 > to begin with. > > I woundering if I can just connect the battery to the leads that go to > the battery and check the lights for working condition. > > Maybe I need to wait and rehang the motor. > > Please let me know. > > > Greg Martin, martygmartin@gmail.com ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:47:05 AM PST US From: rd2@evenlink.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Instrument lighting --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: rd2@evenlink.com Thanks to all who responded. Rumen do not archive _____________________Original message __________________________ (received from Fiveonepw@aol.com; Date: 10:41 PM 7/6/2006 EDT) ________________________________________________________________ In a message dated 07/06/2006 1:33:31 PM Central Daylight Time, rd2@evenlink.com writes: Would PWM be suitable for LEDs also? ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:19:33 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: VM-1000 current sensor question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 01:43 AM 7/7/2006 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" > > >I've been looking at this VM1000 current sensor (it looks like some sort of >hall effect sensor with 4 terminals, it's a coil you slide over the wire, no >connection needed). Originally I had it on the feed line from the alternator >but realized that I would only get readings of zero and greater than zero on >the display if I did that. Correct. It becomes an alternator LOADMETER > . . . So I thought I'd put it around the fat wire that >connects to the battery positive terminal and get both discharge and charge >readings. That becomes a BATTERY AMMETER which is less useful. While it was the ONLY instrumentation in most automobiles and many airplanes, it wasa system health instrument that required interpretation and flight to flight trend monitoring. It met FAA requirements for electrical system health monitoring. The problem with a battery ammeter is that it "sorta" tells you if the bus voltage is okay when the recharge current ultimately goes back to zero AFTER it sorta tells you that the battery is okay when it accepts a healthy recharge after engine start. Battery ammeters are better than nothing but not much. Given that the VM-1000 provides voltage readings and low volts warning, then using the ammeter function to watch alternator load is the most definitive use of the instrument for troubleshooting. Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:50:51 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery Contactor - HOT... --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Didn't get to this one earlier. Battery contactors routinely run too hot to touch but not too hot to operate properly. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/Battery_Contactor_Temps_1.jpg http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/Battery_Contactor_Temps_2.jpg Bob . . . At 08:38 AM 7/7/2006 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken > >Go for it Marty. >I don't see how you can harm anything as long as you don't have any bare >wires hanging there that might short. Was there some particular concern >that you had? >Ken > >Marty Martin wrote: > >> >> >>I have wing tip (3 light, white, (red or greed) & strobe. I'm putting >>the firewall together, no engine to rehang as this was a flying Q200 to >>begin with. >> >>I woundering if I can just connect the battery to the leads that go to >>the battery and check the lights for working condition. >> >>Maybe I need to wait and rehang the motor. >> >>Please let me know. >> >> >>Greg Martin, martygmartin@gmail.com > > >-- > > >-- incoming mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:50:51 AM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator failure thoughts --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd On Jul 7, 2006, at 8:37 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >> You know, the marine and RV alternator guys have solved these >> problems. I bet they have some good data. > > > Don't understand "problem" . . . the goal is to confirm > the influence of the installation in a particular airplane. Perhaps problem is not the right word. Knowing maximum safe operating temperature, temp rise with load, etc., would help someone plan their installation better than just bolting it in there an hoping it works. > People have killed perfectly good hardware by not understanding > and accommodating it's limits in a new installation. Right. And what are those limits and how can we mitigate? OTOH, most alternators work just fine so maybe just ignoring the few failures is acceptable. Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630 +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . Antoine de Saint-Exupry ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:20:06 AM PST US From: Jerry2DT@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Insrument Lighting I live 10 minutes from Fry's but when needing electronic stuff and want advice from someone who actually knows about it, I go to Norvac. _http://www.norvac.net/_ (http://www.norvac.net/) They have everything including stuff like shielded wire that gets you a blank stare at Fry's... My .10, do not archive. Jerry Cochran Wilsonville, OR --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Harold" I live on the wrong coast, but I've been to FRYS south of Portland, seems as if they have something for everyone. Harold ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:20:06 AM PST US From: Charlie Kuss Subject: Fwd: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator failure thoughts >To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >From: Charlie Kuss >Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 22:31:35 -0400 >Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator failure thoughts >Sender: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > >At 06:57 AM 7/5/2006, you wrote: >>In a message dated 7/4/2006 9:25:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, >>chaztuna@adelphia.net writes: >>For the purposes of the alternators we use, the rectifier is >>comprised of 6 diodes. These diodes can fail in two modes, open or >>short. Failing open (diode blows apart) is the more common >>failure mode. In this mode, each diode that fails will reduce the >>alternator's output by 1/6th. >>Charlie, >> >>Charlie: >> >>Why 6 diodes? Half wave rectification only requires 2 diodes. And >>Full wave reverification only requires 4 diodes. So why 6 and how >>are they hooked up? >> >>Barry >>"Chop'd Liver" > >Barry, > The ND alternators actually DO have 8 diodes. 6 of these rectify > the AC current from the 3 windings of the stator into DC current. > The main function of the other two diodes is to prevent the battery > from discharging back into the alternator when the engine is not > running. You have to remember that a DC motor and a generator are > very similar. You apply current into a motor to create mechanical > motion. With a generator (or alternator in this case) you apply > mechanical motion and a magnetic field to create electrical current. > If either of these two isolation diodes were to fail short, the > battery would discharge into the alternator. The alternator would > act like a seized motor. The input current from the battery can > not turn over the engine, via the alternator's pulley and drive belt. > Have you ever had a vehicle which operated OK when driven daily. > Yet, if allowed to sit unused for a number of days, the vehicle > would have a dead battery? Shorted isolation diodes in the > alternator are one possible cause of this situation. >Charlie Kuss Barry & Listers, (Voice of Auggie Doggie) Oh, the shame of it all! I really stepped in deep doo doo on the post above. Please ignore it, as it's all incorrect. Brian's earlier post (which I hadn't read) correctly described the function of the 2 extra diodes. My apologizes Charlie Kuss ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:34:18 AM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: VM-1000 current sensor question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: 7/7/2006 Responding to an AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" Hello Dean, Why don't you just shoot an email to Vision Microsystems support@visionmicrosystems.com or, better yet, call them on the phone, (360-714-8203) ask for a technician and ask him. I have found them great people to deal with. Please tell us what you learn. My sensor is on the output (B lead) from the alternator. My visual electrical information consists of that VM 1000 display reading of amperage being put out by the alternator, the VM 1000 display of bus voltage, and a low voltage warning light from a B&C LR3 voltage regulator. The VM 1000 display amperage reading is zero until the alternator comes on line. Isn't the above a sufficient display of electrical information? I guess it would be nice to be able to know at all times what amount of the electrical supply to the aircraft systems was coming from the battery and what amount was coming from the alternator, but I don't know just exactly how one would go about configuring a system to obtain that information or how one would use that information. I think that after the engine is started and the alternator is on line that all of the aircraft's electrical system needs are being supplied by the alternator and if the battery needs charging as determined by the voltage regulator then the alternator is also supplying the amperage that flows into the battery.The only time the battery should be discharging is if the total amperage required by aircraft systems and battery charging needs is greater than the output capacity of the alternator. Can some one help me here? OC PS: I did find the VM hall effect sensor difficult to mount. Their directions to put it into some sort of protective box was too awkward for me so mine is just bolted to a bracket on the forward side of the fire wall. Has worked OK for 144 hours. "DEAN PSIROPOULOS WRITES" > I've been looking at this VM1000 current sensor (it looks like some sort > of > hall effect sensor with 4 terminals, it's a coil you slide over the wire, > no > connection needed). Originally I had it on the feed line from the > alternator > but realized that I would only get readings of zero and greater than zero > on > the display if I did that. So I thought I'd put it around the fat wire > that > connects to the battery positive terminal and get both discharge and > charge > readings. But....re-reading the VM-1000 manual and looking at their > display > silk-screening, it appears that the display is only designed to read a > positive rate of charge from the alternator (0 to +60 amps). I don't have > everything connected yet so I can't actually fire it up and test it. > > You VM1000 users, is this true? Does it NOT read and display negative > amperes when the battery is discharging and the alternator is not running > (or failed)? Is everyone installing this sensor on the alternator feed > line > or are some of you doing something else??? if so what???? and why? > Thanks. > > > Dean Psiropoulos > RV-6A N197DM > Plodding along to blissful completion. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:42:28 AM PST US From: "Ralph E. Capen" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: VM-1000 current sensor question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ralph E. Capen" I sent a note to Vision Microsystems.... I'll post the response..... BTW, My understanding matches yours....about the alternator supplying required current etc..... Ralph -----Original Message----- >From: bakerocb@cox.net >Sent: Jul 7, 2006 11:28 AM >To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com, dean.psiropoulos@verizon.net >Subject: AeroElectric-List: VM-1000 current sensor question > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: > > >7/7/2006 > >Responding to an AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "DEAN >PSIROPOULOS" > >Hello Dean, Why don't you just shoot an email to Vision Microsystems >support@visionmicrosystems.com or, better >yet, call them on the phone, (360-714-8203) ask for a technician and ask >him. I have found them great people to deal with. Please tell us what you >learn. > >My sensor is on the output (B lead) from the alternator. My visual >electrical information consists of that VM 1000 display reading of amperage >being put out by the alternator, the VM 1000 display of bus voltage, and a >low voltage warning light from a B&C LR3 voltage regulator. The VM 1000 >display amperage reading is zero until the alternator comes on line. > >Isn't the above a sufficient display of electrical information? > >I guess it would be nice to be able to know at all times what amount of the >electrical supply to the aircraft systems was coming from the battery and >what amount was coming from the alternator, but I don't know just exactly >how one would go about configuring a system to obtain that information or >how one would use that information. > >I think that after the engine is started and the alternator is on line that >all of the aircraft's electrical system needs are being supplied by the >alternator and if the battery needs charging as determined by the voltage >regulator then the alternator is also supplying the amperage that flows into >the battery.The only time the battery should be discharging is if the total >amperage required by aircraft systems and battery charging needs is greater >than the output capacity of the alternator. Can some one help me here? > >OC > >PS: I did find the VM hall effect sensor difficult to mount. Their >directions to put it into some sort of protective box was too awkward for me >so mine is just bolted to a bracket on the forward side of the fire wall. >Has worked OK for 144 hours. > >"DEAN PSIROPOULOS WRITES" > >> I've been looking at this VM1000 current sensor (it looks like some sort >> of >> hall effect sensor with 4 terminals, it's a coil you slide over the wire, >> no >> connection needed). Originally I had it on the feed line from the >> alternator >> but realized that I would only get readings of zero and greater than zero >> on >> the display if I did that. So I thought I'd put it around the fat wire >> that >> connects to the battery positive terminal and get both discharge and >> charge >> readings. But....re-reading the VM-1000 manual and looking at their >> display >> silk-screening, it appears that the display is only designed to read a >> positive rate of charge from the alternator (0 to +60 amps). I don't have >> everything connected yet so I can't actually fire it up and test it. >> >> You VM1000 users, is this true? Does it NOT read and display negative >> amperes when the battery is discharging and the alternator is not running >> (or failed)? Is everyone installing this sensor on the alternator feed >> line >> or are some of you doing something else??? if so what???? and why? >> Thanks. >> >> >> Dean Psiropoulos >> RV-6A N197DM >> Plodding along to blissful completion. > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:26:13 AM PST US From: "Don Honabach" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Battery Contactor - HOT... --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Don Honabach" Thanks Everyone - Much appreciated. Don Do not archive -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 6:49 AM --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Didn't get to this one earlier. Battery contactors routinely run too hot to touch but not too hot to operate properly. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/Battery_Contactor_Temps_ 1.jpg http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/Battery_Contactor_Temps_ 2.jpg Bob . . . At 08:38 AM 7/7/2006 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken > >Go for it Marty. >I don't see how you can harm anything as long as you don't have any bare >wires hanging there that might short. Was there some particular concern >that you had? >Ken > >Marty Martin wrote: > >> >> >>I have wing tip (3 light, white, (red or greed) & strobe. I'm putting >>the firewall together, no engine to rehang as this was a flying Q200 to >>begin with. >> >>I woundering if I can just connect the battery to the leads that go to >>the battery and check the lights for working condition. >> >>Maybe I need to wait and rehang the motor. >> >>Please let me know. >> >> >>Greg Martin, martygmartin@gmail.com > > >-- > > >-- incoming mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:07:29 PM PST US From: FLYaDIVE@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: 4 cycle - cycle --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com Hey Guys: I've been thinking on this too much and wish for some outside input. On a 4 cycle engine does the firing of one spark plug happen every other revolution? That is from one Ignition on spark plug #1 to the next igination on spark plug #1 the crank goes around two (2) times? Does this sound correct? Barry "Chop'd Liver" ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:07:29 PM PST US From: FLYaDIVE@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: alternator failure modes --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com In a message dated 7/5/06 7:32:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, brian-yak@lloyd.com writes: > I have had several people write to me to tell me that they have never > seen an alternator turn into a grenade. Neither have I. I was just > listing that is a *possible* scenario, as in, "I suppose this might > happen." I think it unlikely but I do think that things like broken > brackets, having the alternator seize, and who knows what happens if > both happen at once. =========================== Brian: When you say grenade, are you saying totally blown apart with the case breaking into pieces? I have done two alternators jobs that have had what I would call catastrophic failures. The first had the through bolts come out and the alternator bells separated. This caused the rotor to violently wobble and destroy the stator. Basic cause - Plane owner went to his buddy to have an annual done. Cost of Annual: One bottle of Jonnie Walker Black. I do not know at what point the bottle was consumed. Second was a failure of the alternator's end bell (sheave end) where the bearing is pressed in. The voltage output failed and the rotor just started to wobble off center. Basic cause - The alternator was installed off center. The sheave was not aligned with the gear tooth ring. I would not cal lit a grenade, but close. Barry "Chop'd Liver" ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 12:26:14 PM PST US From: "BPA" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: 4 cycle - cycle --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "BPA" That is NORMAL operation on a 4 stroke engine. It takes 720 Deg. Crank rotation to complete all 4 cycles on all cylinders. Some electronic ignitions waste a spark on the overlap stroke; i.e. intake opening and exhaust closing, TDC. Do not archive Monty Barrett BPE,Inc. -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE@aol.com Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 1:05 PM --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com Hey Guys: I've been thinking on this too much and wish for some outside input. On a 4 cycle engine does the firing of one spark plug happen every other revolution? That is from one Ignition on spark plug #1 to the next igination on spark plug #1 the crank goes around two (2) times? Does this sound correct? Barry "Chop'd Liver" ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 12:30:06 PM PST US From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: 4 cycle - cycle --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Yup! Suck...push...bang...Blow Two rotations Frank Do not archive -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE@aol.com Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 12:05 PM --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com Hey Guys: I've been thinking on this too much and wish for some outside input. On a 4 cycle engine does the firing of one spark plug happen every other revolution? That is from one Ignition on spark plug #1 to the next igination on spark plug #1 the crank goes around two (2) times? Does this sound correct? Barry "Chop'd Liver" ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 12:47:35 PM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 4 cycle - cycle --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd On Jul 7, 2006, at 3:05 PM, FLYaDIVE@aol.com wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com > > Hey Guys: > > I've been thinking on this too much and wish for some outside input. > > On a 4 cycle engine does the firing of one spark plug happen every > other > revolution? Yes. > That is from one Ignition on spark plug #1 to the next igination on > spark plug #1 the crank goes around two (2) times? Yes. > > Does this sound correct? Yes. > > Barry > "Chop'd Liver" > > Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630 +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . Antoine de Saint-Exupry ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 12:53:57 PM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: alternator failure modes --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd On Jul 7, 2006, at 3:04 PM, FLYaDIVE@aol.com wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com > > In a message dated 7/5/06 7:32:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > brian-yak@lloyd.com writes: > >> I have had several people write to me to tell me that they have never >> seen an alternator turn into a grenade. Neither have I. I was just >> listing that is a *possible* scenario, as in, "I suppose this might >> happen." I think it unlikely but I do think that things like broken >> brackets, having the alternator seize, and who knows what happens if >> both happen at once. > =========================== > Brian: > > When you say grenade, are you saying totally blown apart with the case > breaking into pieces? Yes, that was the picture I had in my mind but really, any failure where the energy in the rotor causes catastrophic failure of the case. It could be just breaking off the mounting ears, bells separating, etc. > > I have done two alternators jobs that have had what I would call > catastrophic > failures. > The first had the through bolts come out and the alternator bells > separated. > This caused the rotor to violently wobble and destroy the stator. > Basic > cause - Plane owner went to his buddy to have an annual done. Cost > of Annual: One > bottle of Jonnie Walker Black. I do not know at what point the > bottle was > consumed. Usually pre-inspection. That ensures that the signature appears in the logbook regardless of the condition of the airplane. > Second was a failure of the alternator's end bell (sheave end) > where the > bearing is pressed in. The voltage output failed and the rotor > just started to > wobble off center. Basic cause - The alternator was installed off > center. The > sheave was not aligned with the gear tooth ring. > > I would not cal lit a grenade, but close. That is pretty much what I was thinking. I could see the rotor suddenly seizing because a bearing failed and the rotor jams with the case or the stator. The sudden stoppage along with the additional torque being applied by the belt could cause some or all of the alternator to do the grand tour of the cowling. I can see that doing damage to the carb, fuel injection servo, linkages, exhaust, airbox, or other bits down there under the engine. I don't think it likely to hole the case of the engine but weird stuff happens. OTOH, there is a lot more mass in an alternator than in a piston or connecting rod. It would not be a pretty sight. Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630 +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . Antoine de Saint-Exupry ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 03:00:19 PM PST US From: "Bob C. " Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: VM-1000 current sensor question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bob C. " So Bob, I hope this isn't too redundant, in this scenario, where is the best (most useful) place to locate the hall effect sensor? Thanks, Bob Christensen in SE Iowa - RV-8 Bldr On 7/7/06, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > At 01:43 AM 7/7/2006 -0400, you wrote: > > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" > > > > > >I've been looking at this VM1000 current sensor (it looks like some sort of > >hall effect sensor with 4 terminals, it's a coil you slide over the wire, no > >connection needed). Originally I had it on the feed line from the alternator > >but realized that I would only get readings of zero and greater than zero on > >the display if I did that. > > Correct. It becomes an alternator LOADMETER > > > > . . . So I thought I'd put it around the fat wire that > >connects to the battery positive terminal and get both discharge and charge > >readings. > > That becomes a BATTERY AMMETER which is less useful. While > it was the ONLY instrumentation in most automobiles and many > airplanes, it wasa system health instrument that required > interpretation and flight to flight trend monitoring. It met > FAA requirements for electrical system health monitoring. > > The problem with a battery ammeter is that it "sorta" tells you if > the bus voltage is okay when the recharge current ultimately goes > back to zero AFTER it sorta tells you that the battery is okay when > it accepts a healthy recharge after engine start. Battery ammeters > are better than nothing but not much. Given that the VM-1000 provides > voltage readings and low volts warning, then using the ammeter function > to watch alternator load is the most definitive use of the instrument > for troubleshooting. > > > Bob . . . > > > --------------------------------------------------------- > < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > > < the authority which determines whether there can be > > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > > < with experiment. > > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > > --------------------------------------------------------- > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 03:42:06 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: VM-1000 current sensor question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 04:54 PM 7/7/2006 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bob C. " > >So Bob, > >I hope this isn't too redundant, in this scenario, where is the best >(most useful) place to locate the hall effect sensor? > >Thanks, >Bob Christensen >in SE Iowa - RV-8 Bldr If it were my airplane (and I chose to have any ammeters at all) they would be alternator loadmeters. This is the most useful current measurement location for troubleshooting a misbehaving alternator system. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 05:03:37 PM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: VM-1000 current sensor question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd On Jul 7, 2006, at 5:54 PM, Bob C. wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bob C. " > > > So Bob, > > I hope this isn't too redundant, in this scenario, where is the best > (most useful) place to locate the hall effect sensor? In the average electrical system there are three places to measure current. If measure two you can calculate the third. The three places are: 1. output of the alternator (B-lead); 2. battery positive terminal; 3. input to the main distribution bus. If you know what is coming out of the alternator and what is going into the loads then the difference is what is going into or coming out of the battery. If you know what is coming out of the alternator and what is going into the battery, the difference is going into your loads. If you know what is going into the battery and what is going into your loads, add them together to figure out alternator load. If I could only measure one I would measure alternator load and, of course, system voltage. You will quickly learn what your loads draw and what the battery draws will drop near to zero. Any excess load on the alternator indicates a problem. Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630 +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . Antoine de Saint-Exupry ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 07:05:33 PM PST US From: "Peter Laurence" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RE: Insrument Lighting Jerry, If you have a combination of incandescent and LEDs you can control the brightness with a unit made by A and T labs. You can daisy-chain the modules and control the overall brightness with a master. Obviously it will also level out different intensities of incandescenst. You can find them at http://www.a-and-t-labs.com/ Peter _____ [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jerry & Ledy Esquenazi Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 10:52 PM Hey Guys, Thanks to Eric, Ken , and Charlie for your suggestions. However, I don't have any idea on how to build a PWM or variable duty cycle circuit. Do you guys have any schematics or more info? Thanks Charlie for including the link. I don't plan on disconnecting the instrument or covering it up. I have the g-meter lit for aesthetics and symmetry. I paid extra to have it lit, so I plan on using it. I called the manufacturer of the g-meter. The reason the instrument is so bright is that it actually has three bulbs drawing a total of 0.56. The company verified my amp draw correct for a 12 v unit. So at least I know I have the right bulbs. I still need to dim it down a bit to make the brightness similar to the rest of the instruments. Bob K., do you have any ideas? Thank you, Jerry ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 08:44:57 PM PST US From: FLYaDIVE@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 4 cycle - cycle --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com In a message dated 7/7/06 3:32:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, frank.hinde@hp.com writes: > Yup! > > Suck...push...bang...Blow > > Two rotations > > Frank ====================== LoL ... Thank you Frank, I like you r description. Barry "Chop'd Liver" ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 08:44:57 PM PST US From: FLYaDIVE@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 4 cycle - cycle --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com In a message dated 7/7/06 3:50:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, brian-yak@lloyd.com writes: > > Hey Guys: > > > > I've been thinking on this too much and wish for some outside input. > > > > On a 4 cycle engine does the firing of one spark plug happen every > > other > > revolution? > > Yes. > > > That is from one Ignition on spark plug #1 to the next igination on > > spark plug #1 the crank goes around two (2) times? > > Yes. > > > > > Does this sound correct? > > Yes. > > > > > Barry > > "Chop'd Liver" =========================== Thank you Brian for the conformation. Barry "Chop'd Liver"