---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 07/20/06: 22 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:41 AM - Re: SD-8 ALTERNATOR MOD FOR SELF EXCITATION (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 2. 07:58 AM - Re: (FLYaDIVE@aol.com) 3. 09:38 AM - Re: (Matt Prather) 4. 10:47 AM - Re: External Power and electrical system isolation (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Mich=E8le_MS?=) 5. 10:57 AM - Re: External Power and electrical system (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Mich=E8le_MS?=) 6. 10:58 AM - Re: External Power and electrical system (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Mich=E8le_MS?=) 7. 11:20 AM - SD-8 ALTERNATOR MOD FOR SELF EXCITATION (James H Nelson) 8. 11:42 AM - Re: XM Radio with Garmin 530/430? (Paul Weismann) 9. 01:38 PM - Re: External Power and electrical system (Matt Prather) 10. 03:44 PM - Batteries and dynon update (RURUNY@aol.com) 11. 04:18 PM - Re: microphone noise (FLYaDIVE@aol.com) 12. 04:28 PM - Re: braided bonding straps (FLYaDIVE@aol.com) 13. 06:11 PM - Re: External Power and electrical system (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 14. 06:11 PM - Re: External Power and electrical system (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 15. 06:12 PM - Re: braided bonding straps (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 16. 06:15 PM - Re: SD-8 ALTERNATOR MOD FOR SELF EXCITATION (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 17. 06:44 PM - Re: External Power and electrical system (Charlie Kuss) 18. 07:42 PM - Re: microphone noise (Ken) 19. 09:23 PM - Re: External Power and electrical system (Werner Schneider) 20. 09:31 PM - Re: Electric failure (Brian Lloyd) 21. 10:38 PM - Re: TKM MX 300 RADIO QUIRK (FLYaDIVE@aol.com) 22. 11:01 PM - Re: Electric failure (Jeffery J. Morgan) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:41:57 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 ALTERNATOR MOD FOR SELF EXCITATION --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Good eye! I was so focused on the SD-8 I dropped the ball on the system integration. The drawings have been corrected to add steering didoes so that the disconnect relay will pull in from either battery or alternator voltage -AND- (in most cases) still have benefit of the battery to trip the OV crowbar. Bob . . . At 01:16 AM 7/20/2006 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bob McCallum" > > >Thanks Bob (and Jim) - - - BUT - - - according to this modified version of >Z-25 the battery still needs to be in "good functioning condition" in order >to energize the S704-1 relay thus connecting the now self excited SD-8 to >the rest of the electrical system to utilize its output. If the battery is >of sufficient capacity to do this why couldn't we have used this same >capacity to excite the SD-8. What did we gain by its self excitation?? What >am I missing?? I would think an additional modification to Z-25 would be >required to actually make use of this self excitation. No ?? > >Bob McC > > >----- Original Message ----- >Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 11:55 PM > > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > > > > > > Thanks to the diligence of Jim McCulley we've tried a > > modification to SD-8 alternator installations that > > appears to be a good solution for getting the SD-8 > > to self excite. See revision L to Figure Z-25 > > at: > > > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdf/Z25L.pdf > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. > > >-- incoming mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:58:16 AM PST US From: FLYaDIVE@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com In a message dated 7/18/06 8:22:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, craig_california@hotmail.com writes: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Craig Thomas" hotmail.com> > > HOW DO I STOP THESE ___________ ANNOYING EMAILS COMMING THRU TO MY INBOX. I HAVE > > LIKE 150 A DAY!! ============================= Very easy: Throw your computer out of a second floor window. Then jump out after it! It will kill the computer but won't kill you. With luck you will only break your fingers ... That's our luck, not yours. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:38:56 AM PST US From: "Matt Prather" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" We get this kind of message periodically.. I suspect it may be someone fishing for responses from people in order to find active email addresses. If you are clever, you can find out whether the email address that sent the message is actually a subscriber. I won't describe how to do this as Mr Dralle might not like people using his system this way... In any case, I can tell you that "Craig Thomas" is not currently a subscriber to any matronics message list. Regards, Matt- > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com > > In a message dated 7/18/06 8:22:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > craig_california@hotmail.com writes: > >> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Craig Thomas" >> > hotmail.com> >> >> HOW DO I STOP THESE ___________ ANNOYING EMAILS COMMING THRU TO MY >> INBOX. > I HAVE >> >> LIKE 150 A DAY!! > ============================= > Very easy: > > Throw your computer out of a second floor window. > Then jump out after it! > It will kill the computer but won't kill you. > With luck you will only break your fingers ... That's our luck, not yours. > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:47:38 AM PST US From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mich=E8le_MS?= Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: External Power and electrical system isolation --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mich=E8le_MS?= Thanks Harley and Barry - shall have to do more thinking and make the system simpler - your input definitely helps. Michele -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE@aol.com Sent: samedi 15 juillet 2006 11:29 isolation --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com In a message dated 7/13/06 3:59:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, michele.delsol@microsigma.fr writes: > What do you guys suggest isolate my electrical system when external power > is hot or just hook it up onto the battery via a relay? > > Thanks, > Michele Delsol > RV8 Fuselage ========================== Michele: The first question you have to ask yourself is: "What do I want the external power for?" If your answer is STARTING then all that is required is a connection - relay to act as a MASTER RELAY and supply power to the Starter Relay and conversely to the STARTER. Isolating the rest of the panel and electronics. You can get that circuit from any GA manual Cessna, Piper or Grumman. That to me is the K.I.S.S. M.E. principal. Now if you want a THREE function power hookup source for: 1 - Running a handheld or GPS 2 - Running your electronics for testing, or 3 - Doing a LOW LEVEL charge, such as charging the battery using a solar panel ... The just hook up a cigarette lighter directly to the battery. This is the system I have hooked up in the RV-6A. It is GREAT when you have an electrical problem and have to shut down the MASTER. It gives you power for the GPS [Navigation] and a handheld [Communication]. Oh, did you remember to install a quick disconnect for the antenna so you can hook up the handheld? Barry "Chop'd Liver" ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:57:14 AM PST US From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mich=E8le_MS?= Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: External Power and electrical system --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mich=E8le_MS?= Thanks Bob - as usual it is back to basics. This is what I want to accomplish : 1 - Jump start the engine because the battery does not have enough juice left. Would it be OK to just hook in onto the existing battery, turn the master on, and push on the starter or should all electrics be isolated except for PMags, fuel pump and starter solenoid? 2 - Charge the battery - cockpit shut, baggage door shut. Here I can leave the main contactor off to isolate all circuits. 3 - Run electrical equipment in the airplane for testing as I assemble the electrical circuit - for this one I guess I could just as well hook up an external source onto the battery terminals or onto the main bus over the rails. I don't really need an external power source to accomplish this. Thanks, Michele -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: vendredi 14 juillet 2006 15:00 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 09:47 PM 7/13/2006 +0200, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mich=E8le_MS?= > > >Listers, > >I have been planning on adding external power to my system (one alternator, >one battery, PMag IO360). My original design was pretty simple, hook it >straight onto the battery such as one does when jump starting a car. That works. > Then I >added a relay so that the external power terminals would not be hot when not >connected to external power. What is the added value? What risks are mitigated by this? Is your external power INTENDED to crank an engine with a compromised battery . . . or just to run electro-whizzies on the ground, or just charge a battery, or just maintain a battery? Settling on one of these design goals drives the size of your hardware ranging from a tiny wall-wart charger and 24AWG connecting leads up to 2AWG welding cable plugged in through a very fat connecto. >Then some knowledgeable fellow builders told me >that I should only use external power for starting the engine nothing >else. If that was their design goal, that's correct. What's your design goal? > Then some other knowledgeable builders told me that I could install a >cigar lighter jack in parallel as an external power connector for recharging >the battery. Yup, that's another achievable design goal . . . > Then there was the issue as to external power not being clean >DC current and consequently liable to play havoc with some of my sensitive >equipment. If you have a battery on the bus any time ground power is applied, then externally conducted noises are not an issue. The battery is the airplane's best firewall against any and all perturbations of bus voltage. >Based on this I proceeded to design a circuit which would >automatically disconnect all electricals except for the starter solenoid, >current to the PMags and current to my fuel pump. Whereupon another >knowledgeable person suggested that I should remember the KISS principle I >may be over designing my system. Again, depends on your design goals. What do YOU want this ground power system to do for you? >What do you guys suggest isolate my electrical system when external power >is hot or just hook it up onto the battery via a relay? Start with the article at: http://aeroelectric.com/articles/grndpwr.pdf This is typical of ground power jacks installed on type certificated aircraft with a few AEC enhancements added as described in the text. This installation may be used for just about every purpose other than battery maintenance because you need to close a contactor to get connection between external power and the battery. Let's start with what you want the connection to do and then tailor it to that task. Most of what you were told is inaccurate and/or incomplete. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:58:38 AM PST US From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mich=E8le_MS?= Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: External Power and electrical system --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mich=E8le_MS?= I've been debating whether to put the battery up front in the forward baggage area or in the rear. The roar in favor of the rear has been so strong that I finally capitulated and shall indeed be putting it in the rear, but I shall prepare the front baggage well to receive the battery and contactors if my CG permits it after all. As for external power, Ill wait 'till the battery issue gets finalized. Thanks, Michele -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of chaztuna@adelphia.net Sent: samedi 15 juillet 2006 15:08 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mich=E8le_MS?= > > > > > >Listers, > > > >I have been planning on adding external power to my system (one alternator, > >one battery, PMag IO360). My original design was pretty simple, hook it > >straight onto the battery such as one does when jump starting a car. >> Then I added a relay so that the external power terminals would not be hot when not connected to external power. Michele, Earlier you said that you intended to place your battery on the right side behind the firewall. It seems to me, that in this location, you can access the battery on your RV8 by simply opening the front baggage door and reaching down. With this location, why add weight and complexity when there is such a simple and obvious solution? What am I missing? Charlie Kuss ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:20:52 AM PST US From: James H Nelson Subject: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 ALTERNATOR MOD FOR SELF EXCITATION --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: James H Nelson Bob, I just down loaded the drawing I found the dual diodes at the coil of the relay. Is this the way to energize the coil with the SD8 on line only? Jim Nelson ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:42:09 AM PST US From: "Paul Weismann" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: XM Radio with Garmin 530/430? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Paul Weismann" Garmin gave me that information. That might be the best, simplest solution, and I am considering it. However, before I went through that, I thought I would ask the forum to see if anyone had any ideas. Thanks. PW -------- Rotorway JetExec Baron B58 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=48847#48847 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:38:56 PM PST US From: "Matt Prather" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: External Power and electrical system --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" Hello Michele, Though it is common to 'jump start' airplanes (and cars, etc.), doing so may likely cause the battery to have a significantly shortened life. As soon as the engine is running at a speed (RPM) which allows the alternator to put out it's rated current, the battery will be charged at that rate (minus whatever operating load is on the system). Lots of people talk of using a 60Amp (or greater) alternator. Dumping 50Amps+ into the battery may heat it significantly (not to mention putting a heavy load on the alternator)... Regards, Matt- > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mich=E8le_MS? > > > Thanks Bob - as usual it is back to basics. This is what I want to > accomplish : > > 1 - Jump start the engine because the battery does not have enough juice > left. Would it be OK to just hook in onto the existing battery, turn the > master on, and push on the starter or should all electrics be isolated > except for PMags, fuel pump and starter solenoid? > > 2 - Charge the battery - cockpit shut, baggage door shut. Here I can leave > the main contactor off to isolate all circuits. > > 3 - Run electrical equipment in the airplane for testing as I assemble the > electrical circuit - for this one I guess I could just as well hook up an > external source onto the battery terminals or onto the main bus over the > rails. I don't really need an external power source to accomplish this. > > Thanks, > Michele > > -----Original Message----- > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert > L. > Nuckolls, III > Sent: vendredi 14 juillet 2006 15:00 > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > > At 09:47 PM 7/13/2006 +0200, you wrote: > >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mich=E8le_MS? >> >> >>Listers, >> >>I have been planning on adding external power to my system (one >> alternator, >>one battery, PMag IO360). My original design was pretty simple, hook it >>straight onto the battery such as one does when jump starting a car. > > That works. > >> Then I >>added a relay so that the external power terminals would not be hot when > not >>connected to external power. > > What is the added value? What risks are mitigated by this? > Is your external power INTENDED to crank an engine with a > compromised battery . . . or just to run electro-whizzies on > the ground, or just charge a battery, or just maintain a battery? > > Settling on one of these design goals drives the size of your > hardware ranging from a tiny wall-wart charger and 24AWG connecting > leads up to 2AWG welding cable plugged in through a very fat connecto. > >>Then some knowledgeable fellow builders told me >>that I should only use external power for starting the engine nothing >>else. > > If that was their design goal, that's correct. What's your design > goal? > > >> Then some other knowledgeable builders told me that I could install a >>cigar lighter jack in parallel as an external power connector for > recharging >>the battery. > > > Yup, that's another achievable design goal . . . > >> Then there was the issue as to external power not being clean >>DC current and consequently liable to play havoc with some of my >> sensitive >>equipment. > > If you have a battery on the bus any time ground power is > applied, then externally conducted noises are not an issue. > The battery is the airplane's best firewall against any and > all perturbations of bus voltage. > > >>Based on this I proceeded to design a circuit which would >>automatically disconnect all electricals except for the starter solenoid, >>current to the PMags and current to my fuel pump. Whereupon another >>knowledgeable person suggested that I should remember the KISS principle >> > I >>may be over designing my system. > > Again, depends on your design goals. What do YOU want this > ground power system to do for you? > > >>What do you guys suggest isolate my electrical system when external >> power >>is hot or just hook it up onto the battery via a relay? > > Start with the article at: > > http://aeroelectric.com/articles/grndpwr.pdf > > This is typical of ground power jacks installed on > type certificated aircraft with a few AEC enhancements > added as described in the text. > > This installation may be used for just about every purpose > other than battery maintenance because you need to close > a contactor to get connection between external power and > the battery. > > Let's start with what you want the connection to do and > then tailor it to that task. Most of what you were told > is inaccurate and/or incomplete. > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:44:37 PM PST US From: RURUNY@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Batteries and dynon update Anyone have a dynon product, I have a D10A in my 701.For those interested. There is a new firmware update just out July 10th that enables the AOA tone to headset and has a full screen DG that keeps all the numbers right side up.Many other improvements also. I just powered up the completed Aerolectric Connection designed electrical system and its looking good!! I'm using a power supply on the battery terminals. Looking at batteries at B&C and wondering about Amp hours. Whats reasonable for VFR only. Id like to keep the weight and size of the battery on the low end. Maybe a local night flight not very often, mostly daytime. Any battery install pics in the back seat of a 701 helpful. I have a rotax 912 with the 20 Amp alternator. I've attached a pic of panel, hopefully seen at _http://www.matronics.com/forums_ (http://www.matronics.com/forums) Lettering has been done with rub on letters and numbers from tower hobbies. Base paint is grey rustoleum glossy, letters applied and then applied a rustoleum flat clear coat. Used blue painters tape to line up letters and numbers to keep straight. It took alot of time but looks like a military style panel. This is posted to Aeroelectric List and Zenith list. Brian Zenith CH-701 Long Island, NY ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:18:15 PM PST US From: FLYaDIVE@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: microphone noise --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com In a message dated 7/16/06 11:02:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, klehman@albedo.net writes: > Thank you Charlie and Barry for your thoughts. > > It seems that it is cockpit noise that the mic is picking up. > Interestingly I have a flighttech intercom which uses a hot mic and > processes the mic audio to remove the cockpit noise from the intercom. > That works well and there is no noise in the intercom. However when > transmitting, the mic signal (and noise) goes directly to the radio and > is transmitted regardless of whether the intercom is on or off.. > Speaking loudly helps for the time being ;) > > Ken ==================================== Ken: Thank you for the follow up to your problem. I would have never thought of a HOT MIC as being the problem. Is it possible to increase the Squelch by external knob or maybe internal adjustment to shut off the continually on Hot Mic? I would give a call to the manufacture and see what they say about the problem. If you have this problem with their product. I'm sure there are others. There might be a solution from the manufacture. Barry "Chop'd Liver" ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:28:22 PM PST US From: FLYaDIVE@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: braided bonding straps --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com In a message dated 7/16/06 10:34:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, armywrights@adelphia.net writes: > I know I can order these to a pre-set length, but I've removed probably 2.5' > of braid shield from some RG-58 and wondering what all I can do with it. I > know I can use attach a connector and use it as a circuit ground, > > but I'm wondering if it will also work for some of these static charge > installations: aileron to wing, flap to wing, elevator to HS; and some of > the heftier installations: engine to firewall stud, battery negative post to > airframe, etc. > > > > Rob Wright > > RV-10 ============================= Rob: Coax shield would work but it is not as heavy a gage as you should obtain from a place like ACS. I would Guess the gage of shielding is about equivalent to un-insulated 16 or 14 AWG. It would sure work as a static dissipater. When picking the proper coax make sure you use the silver color braid type. This is the one that has the copper braid nickel coated and that will work well in a moisture environment. The coax you wish to use is RG-58A/U. If you wish to go to a larger gage wire by going the coax route try RG-8A or RG-214. Barry "Chop'd Liver" ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:11:04 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: External Power and electrical system --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 07:54 PM 7/20/2006 +0200, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mich=E8le_MS?= > > >Thanks Bob - as usual it is back to basics. This is what I want to >accomplish : > >1 - Jump start the engine because the battery does not have enough juice >left. Would it be OK to just hook in onto the existing battery, turn the >master on, and push on the starter or should all electrics be isolated >except for PMags, fuel pump and starter solenoid? See http://aeroelectric.com/articles/grndpwr.pdf With the battery on line, you can have any equipment running that you wish. I'd wait a minute or two after plugging in ground power and charging the battery before you power up the airplane for cranking. >2 - Charge the battery - cockpit shut, baggage door shut. Here I can leave >the main contactor off to isolate all circuits. The above circuit allows this also but won't work well with battery maintainers because of the ground power contactor's 0.8A draw. If you want to run a battery maintainer, add a small connector directly to the battery bus to connect a battery maintainer. See: http://batterytender.com/product_info.php?products_id=4&osCsid=98b86a9d022882459cf6e26026c0edf6 Street price on these is 25-30 dollars. >3 - Run electrical equipment in the airplane for testing as I assemble the >electrical circuit - for this one I guess I could just as well hook up an >external source onto the battery terminals or onto the main bus over the >rails. I don't really need an external power source to accomplish this. Use the ground power jack and plug an AC supply into it. Here's a nice one that will run just about everything but pitot heat and fat landing lights: http://mpja.com/productview.asp?product=5386+PS If it were my airplane I'd have a high current external power jack like that described above and a low current tap to the battery bus for a battery maintainer. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:11:04 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: External Power and electrical system --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 02:31 PM 7/20/2006 -0600, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" > >Hello Michele, > >Though it is common to 'jump start' airplanes (and cars, etc.), doing so >may likely cause the battery to have a significantly shortened life. As >soon as the engine is running at a speed (RPM) which allows the alternator >to put out it's rated current, the battery will be charged at that rate >(minus whatever operating load is on the system). Lots of people talk of >using a 60Amp (or greater) alternator. Dumping 50Amps+ into the battery >may heat it significantly (not to mention putting a heavy load on the >alternator)... While the "loads" cited are real, they're transient and not even a minor hazard to an RG battery or an alternator. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:12:26 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: braided bonding straps --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Coaxial cable shield is a reasonable material for fabricating your own braided jumpers. What most folks don't know about the jumpers we used to sell is that they were THREE concentric conductors. You can take lengths of braid salvaged off a piece of coax, bunch it up, slip another length inside. Smooth the outside over the inside, bunch it again and add another length. This is how you get enough copper in the conductor to reasonably fill a 2AWG terminal. The fatter coaxes work for this. RG-8 is single layer shield. You can use RG-214 or similar (double braid) and put a second chunk inside the first for total of FOUR concentric layers. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:15:21 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 ALTERNATOR MOD FOR SELF EXCITATION --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 02:16 PM 7/20/2006 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: James H Nelson > >Bob, > I just down loaded the drawing I found the dual diodes at the >coil of the relay. Is this the way to energize the coil with the SD8 on >line only? It provides coil excitation for when ONLY the SD-8 is running but also provides a path from the battery when it's on line for providing the high current, short duration source necessary for crowbar ov protection. I've got a new LV/OV monitoring system coming onto the 'Connections pages in the next few weeks that will provide an alternative to the schematic published. In the mean time, the drawing provided works too. Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 06:44:32 PM PST US From: Charlie Kuss Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: External Power and electrical system At 04:31 PM 7/20/2006, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" > >Hello Michele, > >Though it is common to 'jump start' airplanes (and cars, etc.), doing so >may likely cause the battery to have a significantly shortened life. As >soon as the engine is running at a speed (RPM) which allows the alternator >to put out it's rated current, the battery will be charged at that rate >(minus whatever operating load is on the system). Lots of people talk of >using a 60Amp (or greater) alternator. Dumping 50Amps+ into the battery >may heat it significantly (not to mention putting a heavy load on the >alternator)... > > >Regards, > >Matt- snipped Matt, Providing that your voltage regulator functions properly, you will never damage a battery as mentioned above. As the heavy charge quickly refills the battery, system voltage will rise. The voltage regulator will limit system voltage (and thereby amperage into the battery). This will prevent damage to the battery. Charlie Kuss ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 07:42:16 PM PST US From: Ken Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: microphone noise --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken Barry No the hot mic works fine for the intercom. This particular intercom processes the hot mic signal such that it eliminates the background cockpit noise from my mic on the intercom. A different concept than the more common voice actuated intercom and so far it seems to work as advertised although I'm mostly flying solo right now. When I transmit, the mic is connected directly to the radio (bypasses the intercom) and that was when the objectionable noise was being picked up and transmitted. As per Charlie's suggestion, I reduced the mic gain adjustment on the radio and that seems to have helped quite a bit. Ken FLYaDIVE@aol.com wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com > >In a message dated 7/16/06 11:02:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >klehman@albedo.net writes: > > > >>Thank you Charlie and Barry for your thoughts. >> >> It seems that it is cockpit noise that the mic is picking up. >> Interestingly I have a flighttech intercom which uses a hot mic and >> processes the mic audio to remove the cockpit noise from the intercom. >> That works well and there is no noise in the intercom. However when >> transmitting, the mic signal (and noise) goes directly to the radio and >> is transmitted regardless of whether the intercom is on or off.. >> Speaking loudly helps for the time being ;) >> >> Ken >> >> >==================================== >Ken: > >Thank you for the follow up to your problem. I would have never thought of a >HOT MIC as being the problem. > >Is it possible to increase the Squelch by external knob or maybe internal >adjustment to shut off the continually on Hot Mic? >I would give a call to the manufacture and see what they say about the >problem. If you have this problem with their product. I'm sure there are others. >There might be a solution from the manufacture. > >Barry >"Chop'd Liver" > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:23:22 PM PST US From: Werner Schneider Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: External Power and electrical system --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Werner Schneider Hello Matt, during winter I had to do jump starts 2-3 times on a now 3 year old Panasonic, so for the first 2 to 5 minutes I did see on my amp meter a load of 11-13 Amps coming, however as load is around 4-5 amps from the cockpit an inrush current less then 10 Amps at the beginning has been see, a lot more then the std. 1.8 you should charge with. So far I've not seen a negative effect but I should do that winter a capacity test to see more. br Werner Matt Prather wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" > >Hello Michele, > >Though it is common to 'jump start' airplanes (and cars, etc.), doing so >may likely cause the battery to have a significantly shortened life. As >soon as the engine is running at a speed (RPM) which allows the alternator >to put out it's rated current, the battery will be charged at that rate >(minus whatever operating load is on the system). Lots of people talk of >using a 60Amp (or greater) alternator. Dumping 50Amps+ into the battery >may heat it significantly (not to mention putting a heavy load on the >alternator)... > > >Regards, > >Matt- > > > >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mich=E8le_MS? >> >> >>Thanks Bob - as usual it is back to basics. This is what I want to >>accomplish : >> >>1 - Jump start the engine because the battery does not have enough juice >>left. Would it be OK to just hook in onto the existing battery, turn the >>master on, and push on the starter or should all electrics be isolated >>except for PMags, fuel pump and starter solenoid? >> >>2 - Charge the battery - cockpit shut, baggage door shut. Here I can leave >>the main contactor off to isolate all circuits. >> >>3 - Run electrical equipment in the airplane for testing as I assemble the >>electrical circuit - for this one I guess I could just as well hook up an >>external source onto the battery terminals or onto the main bus over the >>rails. I don't really need an external power source to accomplish this. >> >>Thanks, >>Michele >> >>-----Original Message----- >>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert >>L. >>Nuckolls, III >>Sent: vendredi 14 juillet 2006 15:00 >> >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" >> >> >>At 09:47 PM 7/13/2006 +0200, you wrote: >> >> >> >>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mich=E8le_MS? >>> >>> >>>Listers, >>> >>>I have been planning on adding external power to my system (one >>>alternator, >>>one battery, PMag IO360). My original design was pretty simple, hook it >>>straight onto the battery such as one does when jump starting a car. >>> >>> >> That works. >> >> >> >>> Then I >>>added a relay so that the external power terminals would not be hot when >>> >>> >>not >> >> >>>connected to external power. >>> >>> >> What is the added value? What risks are mitigated by this? >> Is your external power INTENDED to crank an engine with a >> compromised battery . . . or just to run electro-whizzies on >> the ground, or just charge a battery, or just maintain a battery? >> >> Settling on one of these design goals drives the size of your >> hardware ranging from a tiny wall-wart charger and 24AWG connecting >> leads up to 2AWG welding cable plugged in through a very fat connecto. >> >> >> >>>Then some knowledgeable fellow builders told me >>>that I should only use external power for starting the engine nothing >>>else. >>> >>> >> If that was their design goal, that's correct. What's your design >> goal? >> >> >> >> >>> Then some other knowledgeable builders told me that I could install a >>>cigar lighter jack in parallel as an external power connector for >>> >>> >>recharging >> >> >>>the battery. >>> >>> >> Yup, that's another achievable design goal . . . >> >> >> >>> Then there was the issue as to external power not being clean >>>DC current and consequently liable to play havoc with some of my >>>sensitive >>>equipment. >>> >>> >> If you have a battery on the bus any time ground power is >> applied, then externally conducted noises are not an issue. >> The battery is the airplane's best firewall against any and >> all perturbations of bus voltage. >> >> >> >> >>>Based on this I proceeded to design a circuit which would >>>automatically disconnect all electricals except for the starter solenoid, >>>current to the PMags and current to my fuel pump. Whereupon another >>>knowledgeable person suggested that I should remember the KISS principle >>> >>> >>> >>I >> >> >>>may be over designing my system. >>> >>> >> Again, depends on your design goals. What do YOU want this >> ground power system to do for you? >> >> >> >> >>>What do you guys suggest isolate my electrical system when external >>>power >>>is hot or just hook it up onto the battery via a relay? >>> >>> >> Start with the article at: >> >>http://aeroelectric.com/articles/grndpwr.pdf >> >> This is typical of ground power jacks installed on >> type certificated aircraft with a few AEC enhancements >> added as described in the text. >> >> This installation may be used for just about every purpose >> other than battery maintenance because you need to close >> a contactor to get connection between external power and >> the battery. >> >> Let's start with what you want the connection to do and >> then tailor it to that task. Most of what you were told >> is inaccurate and/or incomplete. >> >> Bob . . . >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 09:31:05 PM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Electric failure --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd On Jul 19, 2006, at 10:32 PM, Jeffery J. Morgan wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jeffery J. Morgan" > > > Glen and others, > > Actually I was asking more about the training and how closely it would > match a likely failure of a system. Well, since you mention me by name I guess I get to respond, right? :-) I would probably approach it from the systems failure point of view first and then train to that. Let's start with the difference between flying in visual and instrument meteorological conditions. If you are VFR, the engine is running and you can make power changes, and the primary flight controls are working, you don't have an immediate problem. Fly someplace and land. Sort it out on the ground. If you think about it, you don't need anything in your instrument panel to work in order to safely fly to a good landing spot and land. You don't need radios, gyros, or pitot-static instruments. So if you are a VFR-only pilot, a lot of the redundancy and no-single-point-of- failure stuff we talk about here is superfluous. The only exception I see is if you need electrical power to keep your engine running. If you are getting ready to yell at me about how you need your airspeed and altimeter instruments, I have an example that suggests otherwise. I have a student who had an annoying habit of getting head- down in the cockpit worrying about being on altitude and on airspeed. He got to where he was chasing the airspeed instead of flying by reference to the external horizon. I solved his problem by covering the ASI and altimeter and making him fly the whole lesson with them covered. He quickly discovered that he could use trim and power presets (known settings) to get the airplane to perform the way he wanted. He discovered the he could hear and feel the short-term airspeed variations. In short, he didn't need those instruments. The result is that he felt more comfortable leaving his head out and just flying the airplane. So, if you are a VFR pilot in a VFR airplane, you just don't need to worry about things that much. Now the pilot with the advanced IFR aircraft who plans to fly in IMC is a different story. Now you become dependent on those things in the panel in order to safely complete a flight and get on the ground. I thought Bob's story was rather telling. Here was a guy who had the training and had redundant systems but still managed to kill himself and his passengers. What went wrong? My guess is that, when presented with conflicting information from both working and failed instruments, he found it impossible to determine what the airplane was doing so he proceeded to make things worse. That he managed to get the airplane into a loop and/or a roll just boggles my mind. I have to think that, had he pulled the throttle to idle, dropped the gear, let go of the yoke, and used the rudder pedals to stop the aircraft's rotation, he probably would have survived. Now we have to assume that, unless he had a trim runaway, the airplane was trimmed for level flight. If he didn't put in any pitch commands the airplane would continue to seek its trim airspeed. Dropping the gear and pulling the throttle to idle was just a way to get the airplane to descend without gaining a lot of extra speed and to control speed after he lost it. (Besides, part of standard spin recovery is "power to idle".) Now if he was spinning using the rudders to stop the rotation would have stopped the spin. At that point the airplane would have righted itself and sought its trim airspeed again. But this thread started out with what fails and what to do about it. The increased capability of advanced avionics tends to turn us into systems managers, not pilots. If you think about someone depending on their primary flight display (PFD), i.e. the thing that displays your whole six-pack in one display (as opposed to the multi-function display that displays moving map, wether, traffic, etc.) and then how they react when it goes blank on them, you can see why the FAA might be concerned. We are putting more and more emphasis on fewer devices, more complex devices. All our eggs are in one basket so to speak. When the basket falls we have quite a mess. What do you do? You know, one of the things I would do is work with a CFI to develop a scenario-based education program for MY airplane. Jeff, you made an interesting point about a CFI who won't use the devices in the panel and won't talk to ATC. You don't want that CFI to help you in this case. You want one who will sit in your cockpit, learn its capabilities, and then do the, "what if this thing here failed," scenario. He might not even know the answer but will work with you to find the answer and then work with you to train up on it until you can deal with that scenario. Then you write it down and it becomes part of your system failure checklist. It is a lot easier to think about that stuff on the ground than when you are in IMC conditions with moderate turbulence. As for your nearest facility/frequency function, I have that in my Apollo GX-60. Pretty spiffy. I hit the "nearest" button; select airport, VOR, or NDB; then scroll through the facilities starting with the nearest. If I press the "info" button all the information is there -- frequencies, runway heading and length, etc. It is even fed into my SL-30 so the VOR frequencies are right there. Select, dial, enter. (Those are the actual keystrokes.) Pretty neat. Even though I know how, I almost never use it. I don't use it because it doesn't help my situational awareness. Looking at a chart helps my situational awareness because it is a much better integration of information. Faster access too. I immediately see where I am and my relationship to all the facilities around me. Freqs are there too. Selection is easy. Now if they somehow managed to combine a touch-screen with the VOR receiver maybe that would work for me. Touch the VOR receiver and then touch the station on the moving map. POOF! VOR receiver channelized and the OBS spins to center the needle. That might work. Same with comm. (But how do you tell it you want tower, ATIS, approach, or ground?) Getting on to redundancy. I think my Aztec panel is a good study in this. I got a bunch of new Apollo gear to put in my CJ6A project. (GX-60 GPS/comm, SL-30 Nav-Com, SL-70 xpdr, SL-15 audio panel, Sandel EHSI) Then I got to thinking about how often I planned to fly hard IFR in my CJ6A. How about "never". It seemed like all that wonderful gear would go to waste there. So I put it in my Aztec. Quite a nice panel. But I did one other thing too. I kept the old KNS-80 RNAV (VOR/ILS/ DME/RNAV). I gave it its own dedicated indicator. These were isolated from everything else in the panel. I know that if my super-whizzy stuff goes TU, the KNS-80 and its antiquated cross-needle VOR/LOC/GS indicator will let me navigate to my destination and then shoot an approach, including an ILS. I also kept the old vacuum-driven heading indicator (DG). (Old Bob -- it has a needle-ball, not a TC.) When I am feeling a bit less poor I will try to talk the FSDO into letting me put a Dynon D10. I don't plan to replace anything, just have the Dynon there. If the Dynon fails I will fly the old six-pack. Going back and reading this (it is already after midnight and my brain quit an hour ago) I see I rambled all over. Oh well. Hopefully it will spark some thinking about this. I know I spend entirely too much time thinking about this. Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630 +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . Antoine de Saint-Exupry ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 10:38:43 PM PST US From: FLYaDIVE@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: TKM MX 300 RADIO QUIRK --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com In a message dated 7/17/06 3:22:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, brinker@cox-internet.com writes: > I have a friend with a TKM mx300 radio that has a strange problem. > He cannot hear KLIT approach on one of thier frequencies but he can > talk to them. He can hear other planes around him and talk to other planes > on that frequency. He can change over to the other approach frequency and he > > can hear and talk just fine to control. This has happened to him twice. I > his radio possesed ? Can it be excersied ? > > Randy ================================================== Randy: This sound more like an ATC problem than his problem. I fly through PHY airspace a lot and there are areas where they can hear me well, but I cannot hear them. I request a different frequency or they do a dual transmission on two frequencies at the same time and problem solved. Not My Problem! Barry "Chop'd Liver" ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 11:01:26 PM PST US From: "Jeffery J. Morgan" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Electric failure --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jeffery J. Morgan" Maybe...But it is good food for thought, I appreciate the feedback/suggestions! Jeff -----Original Message----- Sent: Friday, July 21, 2006 12:28 AM --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd --> On Jul 19, 2006, at 10:32 PM, Jeffery J. Morgan wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jeffery J. Morgan" > > > Glen and others, > > Actually I was asking more about the training and how closely it would > match a likely failure of a system. Well, since you mention me by name I guess I get to respond, right? :-) I would probably approach it from the systems failure point of view first and then train to that. Let's start with the difference between flying in visual and instrument meteorological conditions. If you are VFR, the engine is running and you can make power changes, and the primary flight controls are working, you don't have an immediate problem. Fly someplace and land. Sort it out on the ground. If you think about it, you don't need anything in your instrument panel to work in order to safely fly to a good landing spot and land. You don't need radios, gyros, or pitot-static instruments. So if you are a VFR-only pilot, a lot of the redundancy and no-single-point-of- failure stuff we talk about here is superfluous. The only exception I see is if you need electrical power to keep your engine running. If you are getting ready to yell at me about how you need your airspeed and altimeter instruments, I have an example that suggests otherwise. I have a student who had an annoying habit of getting head- down in the cockpit worrying about being on altitude and on airspeed. He got to where he was chasing the airspeed instead of flying by reference to the external horizon. I solved his problem by covering the ASI and altimeter and making him fly the whole lesson with them covered. He quickly discovered that he could use trim and power presets (known settings) to get the airplane to perform the way he wanted. He discovered the he could hear and feel the short-term airspeed variations. In short, he didn't need those instruments. The result is that he felt more comfortable leaving his head out and just flying the airplane. So, if you are a VFR pilot in a VFR airplane, you just don't need to worry about things that much. Now the pilot with the advanced IFR aircraft who plans to fly in IMC is a different story. Now you become dependent on those things in the panel in order to safely complete a flight and get on the ground. I thought Bob's story was rather telling. Here was a guy who had the training and had redundant systems but still managed to kill himself and his passengers. What went wrong? My guess is that, when presented with conflicting information from both working and failed instruments, he found it impossible to determine what the airplane was doing so he proceeded to make things worse. That he managed to get the airplane into a loop and/or a roll just boggles my mind. I have to think that, had he pulled the throttle to idle, dropped the gear, let go of the yoke, and used the rudder pedals to stop the aircraft's rotation, he probably would have survived. Now we have to assume that, unless he had a trim runaway, the airplane was trimmed for level flight. If he didn't put in any pitch commands the airplane would continue to seek its trim airspeed. Dropping the gear and pulling the throttle to idle was just a way to get the airplane to descend without gaining a lot of extra speed and to control speed after he lost it. (Besides, part of standard spin recovery is "power to idle".) Now if he was spinning using the rudders to stop the rotation would have stopped the spin. At that point the airplane would have righted itself and sought its trim airspeed again. But this thread started out with what fails and what to do about it. The increased capability of advanced avionics tends to turn us into systems managers, not pilots. If you think about someone depending on their primary flight display (PFD), i.e. the thing that displays your whole six-pack in one display (as opposed to the multi-function display that displays moving map, wether, traffic, etc.) and then how they react when it goes blank on them, you can see why the FAA might be concerned. We are putting more and more emphasis on fewer devices, more complex devices. All our eggs are in one basket so to speak. When the basket falls we have quite a mess. What do you do? You know, one of the things I would do is work with a CFI to develop a scenario-based education program for MY airplane. Jeff, you made an interesting point about a CFI who won't use the devices in the panel and won't talk to ATC. You don't want that CFI to help you in this case. You want one who will sit in your cockpit, learn its capabilities, and then do the, "what if this thing here failed," scenario. He might not even know the answer but will work with you to find the answer and then work with you to train up on it until you can deal with that scenario. Then you write it down and it becomes part of your system failure checklist. It is a lot easier to think about that stuff on the ground than when you are in IMC conditions with moderate turbulence. As for your nearest facility/frequency function, I have that in my Apollo GX-60. Pretty spiffy. I hit the "nearest" button; select airport, VOR, or NDB; then scroll through the facilities starting with the nearest. If I press the "info" button all the information is there -- frequencies, runway heading and length, etc. It is even fed into my SL-30 so the VOR frequencies are right there. Select, dial, enter. (Those are the actual keystrokes.) Pretty neat. Even though I know how, I almost never use it. I don't use it because it doesn't help my situational awareness. Looking at a chart helps my situational awareness because it is a much better integration of information. Faster access too. I immediately see where I am and my relationship to all the facilities around me. Freqs are there too. Selection is easy. Now if they somehow managed to combine a touch-screen with the VOR receiver maybe that would work for me. Touch the VOR receiver and then touch the station on the moving map. POOF! VOR receiver channelized and the OBS spins to center the needle. That might work. Same with comm. (But how do you tell it you want tower, ATIS, approach, or ground?) Getting on to redundancy. I think my Aztec panel is a good study in this. I got a bunch of new Apollo gear to put in my CJ6A project. (GX-60 GPS/comm, SL-30 Nav-Com, SL-70 xpdr, SL-15 audio panel, Sandel EHSI) Then I got to thinking about how often I planned to fly hard IFR in my CJ6A. How about "never". It seemed like all that wonderful gear would go to waste there. So I put it in my Aztec. Quite a nice panel. But I did one other thing too. I kept the old KNS-80 RNAV (VOR/ILS/ DME/RNAV). I gave it its own dedicated indicator. These were isolated from everything else in the panel. I know that if my super-whizzy stuff goes TU, the KNS-80 and its antiquated cross-needle VOR/LOC/GS indicator will let me navigate to my destination and then shoot an approach, including an ILS. I also kept the old vacuum-driven heading indicator (DG). (Old Bob -- it has a needle-ball, not a TC.) When I am feeling a bit less poor I will try to talk the FSDO into letting me put a Dynon D10. I don't plan to replace anything, just have the Dynon there. If the Dynon fails I will fly the old six-pack. Going back and reading this (it is already after midnight and my brain quit an hour ago) I see I rambled all over. Oh well. Hopefully it will spark some thinking about this. I know I spend entirely too much time thinking about this. Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630 +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . - Antoine de Saint-Exupry