Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:04 AM - Re: Battery location (Bob McDevitt)
2. 07:29 AM - Re: SD-8 ALTERNATOR MOD FOR SELF EXCITATION (J. Mcculley)
3. 07:42 AM - Re: Battery location (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 08:02 AM - Re: Help needed: continued strobe noise & (Eric M. Jones)
5. 08:14 AM - Re: Landing lights & relays (Eric M. Jones)
6. 08:37 AM - Re: Dynon D-10A AOA? ()
7. 09:39 AM - Re: Strobe noise (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
8. 12:43 PM - stereo music to mono intercom (Erich_Weaver@URSCorp.com)
9. 02:01 PM - Re: stereo music to mono intercom (Brian Lloyd)
10. 04:12 PM - Re: SD-8 ALTERNATOR MOD FOR SELF EXCITATION (John Swartout)
11. 05:57 PM - Illuminated DPST Toggle Switches for Audio sources (Ron Patterson)
12. 07:33 PM - Re: SD-8 ALTERNATOR MOD FOR SELF EXCITATION (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Battery location |
Same subject, different topic: what is the preferred battery charger,
the Battery Tender, or the Battery Minder?
Thanks
Bob
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: SD-8 ALTERNATOR MOD FOR SELF EXCITATION |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "J. Mcculley" <mcculleyja@starpower.net>
Bob,
I've noted a few questions within your following response below:
Jim
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
> <nuckollsr@cox.net>
>
> At 04:32 PM 7/21/2006 -0400, you wrote:
>
>> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "J. Mcculley"
>> <mcculleyja@starpower.net>
>>
>> Bob,
>>
>> Thanks to you for putting together this final product. I am happy that
>> you were pleased with my help in conducting the experiment.
>>
>> I'm puzzled, however, by the values of the resistors you listed on the
>> updated Z-25 drawing. In my message of 5/6/2006, I reported that I
>> found it necessary to use 15k ohm resistance in series with the added
>> diodes to avoid the voltage across the capacitor rising above 16 volts
>> while the SD-8 was not switched onto the buss during maximum RPM.
>
>
> The two resistors form a voltage divider. The voltage across
> the capacitor in a totally uncontrolled condition will be a function
> of the alternator's pk=pk output at the time. Totally unloaded and
> at cruise RPM, I seep to recall that the alternator's output was
> on the order of
What is missing in the above sentence after the word "of"?
>
> Also, you mentioned using a 1KuF capacitor. The rule of thumb for
> capacitors in this application is 1Kuf per ampere of system
> capacity. so 10KuF is the recommended minimum and larger doesn't
> hurt anything. I maintained the same ratio (3:1) for the resistor
> values in an effort to bring the source impedance of the voltage
> divider down to speed things up with the larger capacitor size.
Yes, I tested the extremes of capacitance as well as resistance values
by using cockpit adjustable pots, as you had suggested in an earlier
comment. It was from these tests that I concluded the values of 15k and
3k resistors were good at all operating conditions. The capacitance
value is quite acceptable over a large range, but 1kmf is definitely
below the lowest acceptable value.
>
>
>> Also, in my 6/19/2006 message the operating data was acquired while
>> using 15k resistance in series with the diodes and 3k resistance
>> across the capacitor. The overall performance and reliability of
>> coming on-line under all realistic RPM conditions seemed ideal--or did
>> I miss something?
>
>
> Nope, your experiments were entirely valid. We're just
> fine tuning the recipe . . .
>
>
>> Did you find the lower resistance values of 3k and 1k, respectively,
>> necessary for overall better functioning? Just curious.
>
>
> . . . 99.9% sure the lower values are a good move based on common
> sense and understanding of how the "fix" works. I'd like
> to send you a set of components to install permanently both
> to photograph for some installation instructions and to validate
> the final design.
>
> I've also forwarded the data on our effort to Tim @ B&C. He'll
> be working with their supplier of the regulator. All of the
> components we've added could probably go INSIDE the regulator.
Is it possible that B&C would be interested and better equipped to
verify the optimum component values and physical layout via motorized
bench testing wherein the conditions can be better stabilized and
controlled than is the case during either engine ground runs or
in-flight testing as I did? For instance, I noted an apparent variable
in results that I suspect was related to changing component temperatures
over time. This may not be a significant variable but did make
repeatability of data somewhat less than ideal.
>
> I think we've got a working configuration but we're not yet
> arrived at the elegant solution.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
> http://wiki.matronics.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Battery location |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 09:50 AM 7/22/2006 -0700, you wrote:
>Same subject, different topic: what is the preferred battery charger, the
>Battery Tender, or the Battery Minder?
>Thanks
Both products work as advertised. Ebay has
offered the least expensive purchases.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Help needed: continued strobe noise & |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
I say ditto to Bob N's posting on this.
I would like to add that a recent EDN article says some relevant stuff (but mostly
PCB related..but electrons don't know the difference). Worth a look:
http://www.edn.com/article/CA6335295.html
Hidden schematic---Ground is a good place to grow potatoes and carrots.
It is often asked "If my 1972 Cessna didn't need all this EMI stuff...why do I
need it now?" We live in a world where voltages are going down, frequencies are
going up and the average airplane has 100,000,000 X as many transistors as your
Cessna did. Otis Elevator tests to make sure that passengers' cellphones don't
plunge their computer-controlled elevators into the netherworld. Good design
practices can help and ultimately great simplifications will make this design
process smoother.
"philosopher" --n. A lunatic who can analyze his delusions.
- Ambrose Bierce
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones@charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=49275#49275
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Landing lights & relays |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
I sell these by the bushels to RV builders and owners on my website. Please take
a look. You can spend less on a Wig-wag, but you can't buy one that is smaller
or easier to use.
"No one travelling on a business trip would be missed if he failed to arrive."
- Thorstein Veblen
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones@charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=49276#49276
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Dynon D-10A AOA? |
>posted by: <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
>
>Think it is possible to hook up the stall warner
>port to the Dynon D10Aand get AOA information?
May be. The trick would be to put the port in the
leading edge to produce the same differential
pressure as the Dyon probe, but that might be
near inpossible. However you may get it to work
as say just a stall indication?
The way I read it is they put the STALL PORT in
the leading edge so that at high angles of attacks
it will produce a suction. I don't think the the Dynon
AOA probe with two ports (pitot and offset or differential
AOA port) is designed so the AOA port has more
or less pressure but no vacuum.
I have doubt that it will give GOOD AOA info thru
the entire range of angle of attack. It may be
OK for say just one angle, say near stall.
The reason I think there may be a problem is the
Europa method is in the leading edge. There is a
lot of effect from the airfoil. It is quite different to
be on the end of a AOA probe with flat or
faceted faces.
If you could (and doubt this option is available)
you could change the software of they Dynon.
However I think the Dynon does allow you to
make some adjustments or calibration thru
the a flight test process.
If it does not work you will not be out much. You
just will not have a AOA. It's possible that if you
put another port in a different location on the
Wing L.E. than Europa specifies you may have
better luck? You don't want to punch a bunch
of holes in the L.E.
Cheers George M
---------------------------------
Groups are talking. We´re listening. Check out the handy changes to Yahoo!
Groups.
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Strobe noise |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 03:00 PM 7/21/2006 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com
>
>In a message dated 7/21/06 10:42:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
>nuckollsr@cox.net writes:
<snip>
>
> > In my whole career, I've never found it useful to add
> > shielding or to reposition equipment or its wiring as
> > a means for improving performance. If the original
> > poster of the problem can describe the results of any
> > experiments described in the 'Connection (or elsewhere)
> > to identify the propagation mode, then remedies are
> > readily at-hand to break that mode.
> >
> > Bob . . .
> >
>===============================
>Thank you Bob!
>
>That is exactly what I said. As the saying goes you do not have to reinvent
>the wheel.
>
>Start with the basics and work from there. The original post by this fellow
>contained information that he tried to obtain the Radio Shack noise filter
>...
>And I must say they surely do work. He did not have success getting it but
>did obtain a second brand. He did not have any luck with that filter. What
>should he do? Start with the basics and work from there.
>
>I have found just the opposite from you ... I have done at least 4 planes
>where repositioning the wires and/or running shielded wire have made a great
>improvement, or totally eliminated the problem.
If the addition of shielding over-and-above that called
out by the instruction manual -OR- or repositioning of wires
mitigated the symptoms then I'll suggest there's a fundamental
flaw in either the devices involved or the manner in which they
are installed.
> Other things I do after the
>basics are Filters, Tolroid Cores, Feed Through Capacitors, Capacitors to
>Ground
>and Shorten wire leads. Sometimes one arrow does not kill the Sphinx. And I
>still have not used all my arrows. One step at a time, starting with the
>basics
>as you said... Good installation practices.
>I have always said ... YELLED about improving GROUNDS and connections. Ya
>gots ta start somewhere ... Starts wit da basics.
Agreed. So let us DO start with the simple-ideas which guide
design and fabrication of products for aircraft (or any
other market). They are illustrated by a piece I published on
the website at:
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Whats_all_this_DO160_Stuff_Anyhow.pdf
This piece speaks to a design philosophy that is well respected in
the aviation community and elsewhere. It suggests ways that we
can assure the neighborly function of any electro-whizzie in
a community of other electro-whizzies aboard aircraft. The goal
make the individual black box stand-alone-compatible when
installed per the designer's instructions.
When successfully applied, the installer is never required
to amplify the installation instructions with the
additions of shields, filters, repositioning of wires, or
agonizing over which end of which shield gets attached to what
locations.
If the devices involved were crafted with DO-160 philosophy
in mind, then problems with the installation are invariably caused
by some failure/deficiency of hardware or mistake in installation.
It's never expected that the customer should fine-tune
an installation with extra-ordinary noise mitigation studies
or techniques.
----------------------------------------------------------------
>Actually I thought this issue was dead ... Well, at least the horse did not
>move.
The "issue" is that a participant here on the List has
a problem. It's in the best interest of the List to guide
that individual through the identification and sifting
of the simple-ideas upon which the problem rests. To
accomplish this we need data:
What does the noise sound like, how does the interference
manifest itself? What positioning of controls or opening of
power/signal paths has an effect on the interference? Does
the problem go away or is it affected by operating the victim
or antagonist from a separate battery supply?
Assuming the hardware involved in this case has been successfully
installed in the past (Meaning that the manufacturer probably DOES
embraced and achieve DO-160 style neighborliness) then the
first task is to see where instructions were (1) not followed
or (2) unclear.
As this data becomes available, we should begin to zero
in more detailed tests that help us deduce root cause,
propagation mode. Ultimately we'll be able to suggest
techniques for eliminating the interference at the source
or at least breaking the propagation mode.
Until we do the science, dumping lots of suggestions
for remedy on the table are not particularly helpful
especially when remedies that do improve the situation
may only be masking the real cause.
I've never (well, almost never) found after-installation
application of shields, filters, etc. to be the ultimate
solution because the world I work in is supplied with
product that is expected and generally does work as-expected
when installed into environment considered during the design
of that product.
There have been a few instances of design-lag . . .
For example, I spent some time last winter ADDING filters
to the harness of starter-generator controllers on some VERY
expensive airplanes when moving wires and fiddling with shields
didn't help. Root cause was that the controllers were
designed in 1970 for a more benign environment and
not suited to the present day application. Folks in
production flight had pushed a few problem airplanes out
the door for years by tinkering with the installation. But
they finally encountered a set of conditions where the
alchemy didn't work. It was necessary and beneficial to
deduce root cause and enhance the design . . . even if
external to the victim. The fix is now a standard recipe
for success and I don't expect to get a call on that
problem ever again.
To go after a problem with the sprinkling of alchemy
is a tacit confession that we don't believe the products
involved were skillfully crafted to the task in the
first place. That MIGHT be true but I'll suggest that
it's better to deduce it based on understanding of
the simple-ideas than to sprinkle fixes until the problem
goes away or simply becomes tolerable.
Bob . . .
Message 8
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| Subject: | stereo music to mono intercom |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Erich_Weaver@URSCorp.com
Greetings
I would like to make use of my iPod using the single music input for my PS
Engineering PM1000 (mono) intercom. I can power the iPod easily enough
using the cigarette lighter adapters, but not sure about how to wire from
the headphone jack to the intercom and the implications of going from
stereo to mono. Can anyone provide some instructions or a reference
suitable for this electrically challenged soul? Searched the archives but
didnt find anything specific on this - it does sound as though I may have
an issue with the iPod output not providing sufficient volume, correct? If
thats the case, is there any easy fix available?
thanks for any help you can provide.
Erich Weaver
This e-mail and any attachments are confidential. If you receive this
message in error or are not the intended recipient, you should not retain,
distribute, disclose or use any of this information and you should destroy
the e-mail and any attachments or copies.
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: stereo music to mono intercom |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-yak@lloyd.com>
On Jul 22, 2006, at 3:34 PM, Erich_Weaver@URSCorp.com wrote:
> stereo to mono. Can anyone provide some instructions or a reference
> suitable for this electrically challenged soul? Searched the
> archives but
> didnt find anything specific on this - it does sound as though I
> may have
> an issue with the iPod output not providing sufficient volume,
> correct? If
> thats the case, is there any easy fix available?
The simplest answer is to take the right and left channels and
combine them into a single channel using a pair of 100 ohm resistors.
You can do this in the jack to the PS-1000 intercom so that you can
plug in any stereo source.
Here:
Stereo Jack
.---------R1--+----> to audio input on PS1000
| / |
| v |
| ^ |
| \--------R2--+
+----+
|
ground
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian-yak AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
Message 10
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| Subject: | SD-8 ALTERNATOR MOD FOR SELF EXCITATION |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Swartout" <jgswartout@earthlink.net>
So, is the "L" version, dated 7-18-06, accessible via the first link in your
7-20-06 post, the right one for now? If not, please direct me to the
corrected drawing. Thanks Bob.
John
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 8:34 AM
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<nuckollsr@cox.net>
Good eye! I was so focused on the SD-8 I dropped the ball
on the system integration. The drawings have been corrected
to add steering didoes so that the disconnect relay will pull in
from either battery or alternator voltage -AND- (in most cases)
still have benefit of the battery to trip the OV crowbar.
Bob . . .
At 01:16 AM 7/20/2006 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bob McCallum"
><robert.mccallum2@sympatico.ca>
>
>Thanks Bob (and Jim) - - - BUT - - - according to this modified version
of
>Z-25 the battery still needs to be in "good functioning condition" in order
>to energize the S704-1 relay thus connecting the now self excited SD-8 to
>the rest of the electrical system to utilize its output. If the battery is
>of sufficient capacity to do this why couldn't we have used this same
>capacity to excite the SD-8. What did we gain by its self excitation?? What
>am I missing?? I would think an additional modification to Z-25 would be
>required to actually make use of this self excitation. No ??
>
>Bob McC
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 11:55 PM
>
>
> > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
><nuckollsr@cox.net>
> >
> >
> > Thanks to the diligence of Jim McCulley we've tried a
> > modification to SD-8 alternator installations that
> > appears to be a good solution for getting the SD-8
> > to self excite. See revision L to Figure Z-25
> > at:
> >
> > http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdf/Z25L.pdf
>
>
>--
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>
>
>-- incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
>Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
Message 11
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| Subject: | Illuminated DPST Toggle Switches for Audio sources |
Anybody know where I can find ON/NONE/OFF switches with independent lighting?
I bought several from B and C (and they were special order) that don't seperate
the 12 volt light on the toggle from the on/off circuits I wish to activate.
If I were to put a hot wire to the radio equipment, it would fry the unit I
wish to activate. All I want to do is get a lighted toggle that tells me the other
circuit in the switch is closed (ON) without also giving that circuit any
charge. Thanks in advance.
Ron
N8ZD - flying in two weeks!
Message 12
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| Subject: | SD-8 ALTERNATOR MOD FOR SELF EXCITATION |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 07:01 PM 7/22/2006 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Swartout"
><jgswartout@earthlink.net>
>
>So, is the "L" version, dated 7-18-06, accessible via the first link in your
>7-20-06 post, the right one for now? If not, please direct me to the
>corrected drawing. Thanks Bob.
Yes. I updated the "L" version and left the link alone.
Bob . . .
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