---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 08/26/06: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:11 AM - Re: Noise filter noise (Richard Girard) 2. 07:21 AM - Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 32 Msgs - 08/25/06 (galaxyone@juno.com) 3. 07:27 AM - Re: Noise filter noise (Brian Lloyd) 4. 07:45 AM - Re: Noise filter noise (James Redmon) 5. 09:12 AM - Master Relay Wiring (Barry Ward) 6. 09:20 AM - Re: Master Relay Wiring (Gilles Thesee) 7. 01:01 PM - Two Questions (Speedy11@aol.com) 8. 01:41 PM - Thermocouple wire (Bill Bradburry) 9. 03:57 PM - Transorbs for Lancair Flap Actuator... (Greg Campbell) 10. 06:31 PM - Re: Thermocouple wire (Bob White) 11. 06:38 PM - Re: Two Questions (Brian Lloyd) 12. 06:39 PM - Re: Thermocouple wire (David M.) 13. 07:05 PM - Re: Thermocouple wire (Bob McCallum) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:11:20 AM PST US From: "Richard Girard" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Noise filter noise I've had singing capacitors in audio equipment before, it means it's a bad capacitor. Try replacing it or the whole filter assembly. Rick On 8/25/06, James Redmon wrote: > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James Redmon" < > james@berkut13.com> > > > Well, 2.5 KHz is within the audible frequency range. The A above Middle > C > > is 440 Hz. So you're only talking about less than 6 octaves above it. > > All it would take is having the coil inside the filter that has this > > frequency applied to it being physically in contact with the case or > other > > structure. I can envision that real easily. We usually call that > > "headphones" or "loud speaker". So, you might have to take it apart and > > make sure the filter is physically isolated from the box around it using > > RTV or rubber gaskets or something. > > Well, the caps and coil are in a plastic case, and are installed with some > kind of clear gel glue - like hot glue. I can not see that anything is > touching the case without the goop inbetween. > > > Be careful about filtering the PWM signal, though. The whole purpose is > > to feed that signal to the servo, and if you are applying a filter that > > changes the shape, the servo might start functioning incorrectly. > > > Yeah. There does not seem to be any issues with the servo operation, but > then I have not flown it either. I will do some flight testing tomorrow. > > I also plan to disconnect the filter, setup the AP servo, get it working > in > flight (if I can bear the noise in the headset), and then re-connect the > filter and see if there are any servo problems. > > I'll know more tomorrow. One thing - I can live with the singing filter > if > the AP works properly. It's not loud enough to hear over any engine > noise....but the noise over the headsets is LOUD! > > > James Redmon > Berkut #013 N97TX > http://www.berkut13.com > > -- Rick Girard "Ya'll drop on in" takes on a whole new meaning when you live at the airport. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:21:25 AM PST US From: "galaxyone@juno.com" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 32 Msgs - 08/25/06 Paul has been asked to leave lists, and for the same reasons, before. He has also been removed, only to reappear with a different name! I seem t o remember "Larry Brown" on a previous list. Regards Henry. ________________________________ Message 9 ___________________________ __________ Time: 09:23:13 AM PST US From: "Terry Watson" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Paul and other thoughts --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" No, I disagree. There was much more to it than that. Paul was consistent ly attacking the honesty and integrity of Bob's work, misquoting what he sa id and attacking that. Bob kept trying to bring it back to the point. This has been going on, off and on, for at least a year. Each time Paul goes off in a huff after getting in at least a half a dozen different "last word" messages. Paul kept trying to make it personal; Bob kept trying to get i t back to the point. Finally, Bob asked Paul to leave the list that Matt created for Bob to u se to answer our questions about wiring little airplanes. In my mind, he wa ited about 18 months too long. Paul has wasted way too many people's time. I think I heard somewhere that he has his own list, but apparently no one was listening to him their so he had to come pollute this one again. Terry --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" Neither method is wrong but they would rather spend the time arguing why one is more correct than the other. Michael Sausen RV-10 #352 Buildus Interuptus due to moving Do Not Archive Paul has been asked to leave lists, and for the same reasons, befo re. He has also been removed, only to reappear with a different name! I seem to remember "Larry Brown" on a previous list.
Regards
Henry.< BR>


________________________________  Message  9  _____________________________________


Time:  ;09:23:13 AM PST US
From: "Terry Watson"&nbs p;<terry@tcwatson.com>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List : Paul and other thoughts

--> AeroEle ctric-List message posted by: "Terry Watson"&nb sp;<terry@tcwatson.com>

No, I disagree. Ther e was much more to it than that.  ;Paul was consistently
attacking the honesty  ;and integrity of Bob's work, misquoting w hat he said
and attacking that. Bob kep t trying to bring it back to the  ;point. This has
been going on, off and  on, for at least a year. Each t ime Paul goes off in a
huff after  getting in at least a half a dozen&nb sp;different "last word"
messages. Paul kept  ;trying to make it personal; Bob kept  ;trying to get it
back to the point.

Finally, Bob asked Paul to leave the& nbsp;list that Matt created for Bob to&nbs p;use
to answer our questions about wiring&n bsp;little airplanes. In my mind, he waite d
about 18 months too long. Paul has&nb sp;wasted way too many people's time. I
think I heard somewhere that he has  his own list, but apparently no one w as
listening to him their so he had&nbs p;to come pollute this one again.

Terry< BR>

--> AeroElectric-List message posted b y: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)"
<rvbuilder@sa usen.net>

<snip> Neither method is w rong but they would rather spend the  time
arguing why one is more correct th an the other.<snip> 

Michael Sausen
RV-10 #352 Buildus Interuptus due to movin g
Do Not Archive
________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:27:52 AM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Noise filter noise --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd On Aug 25, 2006, at 9:58 PM, James Redmon wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James Redmon" > > >> You are putting current pulses through an inductor so it has a >> magnetic field that is varying with the current pulses. Any steel >> object nearby is going to be alternately pulled and released by >> the varying magnetic field. It is probably the case of the >> inductor or the inductor's core that is making the noise. > > Humm...might be the inductor core..it's not mounted near anything > else (6"+ minimum). The noise is definately coming from inside the > filter case (plastic) and I can feel it vibrating with the sound. > > >> OTOH, there shouldn't be that much current change. Put the >> capacitor combo back at the input to the servo. > > The cap combo didn't do much at all to help the noise. Maybe a 5% > reduction. I know that but it might help with the noise coming from the filter. Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way brian HYPHEN av AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630 +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . Antoine de Saint-Exupry ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:45:00 AM PST US From: "James Redmon" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Noise filter noise Humm...given the potting inside the filter, I think I'd end up destroying it in the process of dis-assembly. I might try replacing the whole filter. Attached is a picture of the unit - I have not been able to track down any electrical specifics. Curious, if one of the two capacitors went bad, wouldn't it fail (at least partially) to squelch the noise and no longer "filter" as well? Or is there a partial failure mode of a capacitor that I'm not aware of? Thank you all for the help and ideas - it's very educational. I'll fly it today, and see if the servo is operating properly with and without the filter attached. (it's rigged as a small jumper cable so I can easily plug and un-plug it) I think if the AP servo works properly, I'll just let the filter audibly "sing". At least there's no appreciable noise in the headsets. James Redmon Berkut #013 N97TX http://www.berkut13.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Girard To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2006 2:09 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Noise filter noise I've had singing capacitors in audio equipment before, it means it's a bad capacitor. Try replacing it or the whole filter assembly. Rick ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:12:33 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Master Relay Wiring From: "Barry Ward" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Barry Ward" Is it normal for the master relay to be connected directly to ground via the master On switch? In the circuit recommended by Vans, which is probably an aviation standard design, there is no fuse or circuit breaker in series with the current flowing through the Master relay coil. Every other circuit seems to have a protection device wired in series. Perhaps someone could explain why? Barry RV6A -------- Barry Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=57540#57540 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:20:33 AM PST US From: Gilles Thesee Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Master Relay Wiring --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee Hi Barry, > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Barry Ward" > > Is it normal for the master relay to be connected directly to ground via the master On switch? Yes > there is no fuse or circuit breaker in series with the current flowing through the Master relay coil. > Every other circuit seems to have a protection device wired in series. > Perhaps someone could explain why? > The fuse or CB protects the wire against overheating due to excessive current intensity. In this particular circuit, the current is limited by the relay coil, so no protection is needed. Hope this helps, Regards, Gilles Thesee Grenoble, France http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:01:07 PM PST US From: Speedy11@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Two Questions Experts and Builders, I have two questons for you. 1. Where did you physically locate your alternator cicuit breaker in your airframe? 2. Is it a good idea to have a bus bar forward of the firewall to obtain power for various sensors in the engine compartment? Thank you. Stan Sutterfield ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:41:39 PM PST US From: "Bill Bradburry" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Thermocouple wire --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Bradburry" If I am going to buy wire to make my own "J" thermocouples, should I buy stranded or solid wire for use in my plane? If I buy stranded, do I silver solder the ends together the same as with solid wire? I am looking at 24 AWG wire. Does it make any difference whether you use "J" or "K" wire to the instrument that you hook it up to? In other words, can you hook up "J" wire to an EGT meter and use it to read CHT, or OAT, or oil temp, or whatever? (I understand that you can hook up "K" wire to an EGT meter and use it to read CHT..That is not what I am asking.. I am wondering if the meter is calibrated to the type of wire) Thanks, Bill Bradburry ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:57:18 PM PST US From: "Greg Campbell" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Transorbs for Lancair Flap Actuator... What size Transorb or MOV would be suitable for the flap motor on a Lancair ES ? They use an "FL1" 12v (or 24v) "linear actuator", Aircraft Spruce part # 05-66223 http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/flaplinact.php Lancair provided the flap actuator, limit switches, and Omrom 12vdc relays. I'm still using the "factory standard" schematic, but it doesn't utilize diodes or MOV's to protect the switches or relays. The flap motor is a pretty healthy size motor, I'm guessing the amp draw is around 8 or 10 amps. The Lancair schematic shorts the two terminals of the flap motor together when the flap is not in operation. This acts as an electronic brake and noticeably minimizes any tendency to "coast". If I wanted to add a transorb - would I just wire it in parallel with the motor leads? What size would I use? (Mine is a 12v system, but others have the 24v model.) Thanks, Greg ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:31:15 PM PST US From: Bob White Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Thermocouple wire --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Bob White On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 16:41:34 -0400 "Bill Bradburry" wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Bradburry" > > If I am going to buy wire to make my own "J" thermocouples, should I buy > stranded or solid wire for use in my plane? If I buy stranded, do I > silver solder the ends together the same as with solid wire? I am > looking at 24 AWG wire. > Does it make any difference whether you use "J" or "K" wire to the > instrument that you hook it up to? In other words, can you hook up "J" > wire to an EGT meter and use it to read CHT, or OAT, or oil temp, or > whatever? (I understand that you can hook up "K" wire to an EGT meter > and use it to read CHT..That is not what I am asking.. I am wondering if > the meter is calibrated to the type of wire) > > Thanks, > Bill Bradburry > Hi Bill, You need to use the type wire the instrument is calibrated for to get an accurate reading. Each type of thermocouple has a characteristic voltage vs temp. Type K thermocouples are better for higher temps like the EGT, and Type J is more suitable for lower temps like CHT. You can make a useful TC junction by twisting the wires together, silver soldering, spot welding, etc. Although twisting the wires together would only be suitable for temporary use, and you might not have a very good junction but it would work. Silver solder might not make an ideal junction but it would be stable. A good weld would be best. I've made J thermocouples by twisting the wires together and melting the joint in an ox/acetylene flame. I checked them in boiling water and they were within a degree or two of the correct temperature. The effect of having a not perfect junction is that the voltage vs temp will be lower than a good TC, but it will be stable for that particular TC. In other words, with a "bad" junction temperature will read too low. One of the rotary engine guys, Todd Bartrim, has built Thermocouples suitable for use as EGT probes. His procedure is documented at http://www.rotarywiki.org/wiki/tiki-index.php?page=EgtThermocouples Bob W. -- http://www.bob-white.com N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 (first engine start 1/7/06) Custom Cables for your rotary installation - http://www.roblinphoto.com/shop/ ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:38:34 PM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Two Questions --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd On Aug 26, 2006, at 12:59 PM, Speedy11@aol.com wrote: > Experts and Builders, > I have two questons for you. > 1. Where did you physically locate your alternator cicuit breaker > in your airframe? I actually used a fuse forward of the firewall. If that sucker pops you know you have a serious problem that you are not going to troubleshoot in flight. > 2. Is it a good idea to have a bus bar forward of the firewall to > obtain power for various sensors in the engine compartment? I guess that is up to you and the way you wire your engine compartment. I didn't as there was nothing firewall forward that needed power from the bus. My sensor box was powered from the display in the panel so I didn't need to run power forward. Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way brian HYPHEN av AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630 +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax) I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . Antoine de Saint-Exupry ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:39:26 PM PST US From: "David M." Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Thermocouple wire --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David M." Bill, I strongly recommend you get the wire already manufactured for thermocouples. Aircraft Spruce has 15 foot lengths that you can cut to the desired lengths for very little money. The type of wire is critical to thermocouple usage. David M. Bill Bradburry wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Bradburry" > >If I am going to buy wire to make my own "J" thermocouples, should I buy >stranded or solid wire for use in my plane? If I buy stranded, do I >silver solder the ends together the same as with solid wire? I am >looking at 24 AWG wire. >Does it make any difference whether you use "J" or "K" wire to the >instrument that you hook it up to? In other words, can you hook up "J" >wire to an EGT meter and use it to read CHT, or OAT, or oil temp, or >whatever? (I understand that you can hook up "K" wire to an EGT meter >and use it to read CHT..That is not what I am asking.. I am wondering if >the meter is calibrated to the type of wire) > >Thanks, >Bill Bradburry > > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:05:13 PM PST US From: "Bob McCallum" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Thermocouple wire --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bob McCallum" Bill; Stranded vs. solid is your choice but bear in mind that stranded is more flexible and less prone to vibration fatigue than solid, but both will function. Any point at which the two different wire alloys are joined forms a thermocouple junction capable of generating a voltage and thus measuring temperature. Twisting them together works, just not very long term reliable, hence welding or silver solder can be used. Yes the instrument is calibrated to the type of wire. The voltage vs. temperature curves for all the various types of thermocouple wire (J, K, T, E, R, S, C,GB, etc) are quite different and the instrument range and calibration must match the wire. One reason for the multitude of types is to be able to measure temperatures through different ranges. Thus your EGT and CHT thermocouples may well be different types as might your OAT if you chose to use a thermocouple. Type J - Zero to 750 deg C Type K - minus 200 to 1250 deg C Type E - minus 200 to 900 deg C Type T - minus 250 to 350 deg C etc. ob McC ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Bradburry" Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2006 4:41 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Thermocouple wire > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Bradburry" > > If I am going to buy wire to make my own "J" thermocouples, should I buy > stranded or solid wire for use in my plane? If I buy stranded, do I > silver solder the ends together the same as with solid wire? I am > looking at 24 AWG wire. > Does it make any difference whether you use "J" or "K" wire to the > instrument that you hook it up to? In other words, can you hook up "J" > wire to an EGT meter and use it to read CHT, or OAT, or oil temp, or > whatever? (I understand that you can hook up "K" wire to an EGT meter > and use it to read CHT..That is not what I am asking.. I am wondering if > the meter is calibrated to the type of wire) > > Thanks, > Bill Bradburry > >