Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:59 AM - Is EFIS vulnerable at engine start? (The Minearts)
2. 05:12 AM - Re: Wiring diagram software (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
3. 05:34 AM - Re: Dynon D10A Boom AOA (Ed Anderson)
4. 05:42 AM - Re: Is EFIS vulnerable at engine start? (FLYaDIVE@aol.com)
5. 05:56 AM - Re: Is EFIS vulnerable at engine start? (Bill Denton)
6. 06:34 AM - Re: Dynon D10A Boom AOA (Sigmo@aol.com)
7. 06:52 AM - Re: Is EFIS vulnerable at engine start? (A DeMarzo)
8. 06:54 AM - Re: "Paddle Type" Flap position switch? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
9. 07:01 AM - Re: Is EFIS vulnerable at engine start? (Denis Walsh)
10. 07:01 AM - Re: Is EFIS vulnerable at engine start? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
11. 07:08 AM - Re: Is EFIS vulnerable at engine start? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
12. 07:08 AM - Re: Turn on ALT before engine start? (Yes Airmanship) ()
13. 07:31 AM - Re: Wire drawing software (Hopperdhh@aol.com)
14. 07:48 AM - Re: Re: Turn on ALT before engine start? (Yes Airmanship) (Bill Denton)
15. 08:35 AM - Re: Garmin D sub pin removal ?? (Gary Lineberry)
16. 08:47 AM - Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 24 Msgs - 08/29/06 (Lee Logan)
17. 08:47 AM - Re: Is EFIS vulnerable at engine start? (Terry Watson)
18. 08:58 AM - Re: Airmanship, Science and Ruts (was alternator switching). (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
19. 08:58 AM - Re: Re: Turn on ALT before engine start? (Yes Airmanship) (FLYaDIVE@aol.com)
20. 09:01 AM - Re: Turn on ALT before engine start? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
21. 09:06 AM - Re: Is EFIS vulnerable at engine start? (FLYaDIVE@aol.com)
22. 09:21 AM - Re: Is EFIS vulnerable at engine start? (Ed Holyoke)
23. 09:31 AM - Re: Is EFIS vulnerable at engine start? (Dave N6030X)
24. 09:32 AM - Re: Moving map Operating System considerations (Dave N6030X)
25. 09:35 AM - Re: Is EFIS vulnerable at engine start? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
26. 09:36 AM - Re: Alternator Switching (Dave N6030X)
27. 10:00 AM - Re: Is EFIS vulnerable at engine start? (Brian Lloyd)
28. 10:10 AM - Re: Re: Turn on ALT before engine start? (Yes Airmanship) (Brian Lloyd)
29. 10:24 AM - Re: Re: Turn on ALT before engine start? (Yes Airmanship) (Brian Lloyd)
30. 10:55 AM - Re: Re: Turn on ALT before engine start? (Yes Airmanship) (OldBob Siegfried)
31. 11:18 AM - Re: Is EFIS vulnerable at engine start? (Terry Watson)
32. 11:19 AM - Re: Re: Turn on ALT before engine start? (Yes Airmanship) (Bruce Gray)
33. 12:04 PM - Re: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 24 Msgs - 08/29/06 (Harold)
34. 12:33 PM - Re: Re: Turn on ALT before engine start? (Yes Airmanship) (FLYaDIVE@aol.com)
35. 12:45 PM - Re: Is EFIS vulnerable at engine start? (FLYaDIVE@aol.com)
36. 12:47 PM - Re: Re: Turn on ALT before engine start? (Yes Airmanship) (FLYaDIVE@aol.com)
37. 01:32 PM - Re: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 24 Msgs - 08/29/06 (David M.)
38. 01:34 PM - Re: Is EFIS vulnerable at engine start? (FLYaDIVE@aol.com)
39. 03:06 PM - Re: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 24 Msgs - 08/29/06 (Mitchell Faatz)
40. 03:22 PM - SlickSTART Bulletin SB1-06 ()
41. 03:51 PM - Lite version (Garland Edwards)
42. 05:06 PM - Re: Is EFIS vulnerable at engine start? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
43. 05:10 PM - Re: George (Rodney Dunham)
44. 06:12 PM - Re: Is EFIS vulnerable at engine start? (gert)
45. 06:46 PM - Re: Re: George (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
46. 06:52 PM - Re: Is EFIS vulnerable at engine start? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
47. 06:53 PM - Re: SlickSTART Bulletin SB1-06 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
48. 07:52 PM - Re: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 24 Msgs - 08/29/06 (David M.)
49. 08:33 PM - Re: Turn on ALT before engine start? (Yes Airmanship) (europa flugzeug fabrik)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Is EFIS vulnerable at engine start? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "The Minearts" <smineart@mahaska.org>
The obsolescence of the avionics switch and bus has been well-discussed,
but: is a Dynon EFIS on the E-bus vulnerable to current fluctuations during
engine startup? My ignition and starter will be powered from the always-hot
battery bus, so I could wait to switch on the master until immediately after
starting- would this be advisable? Does the display need its own switch?
Steve Mineart
CH-601/Corvair
Do not archive
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Wiring diagram software |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 03:10 AM 8/30/2006 +0000, you wrote:
If one wishes to take advantage of the AutoCAD wirebook
drawings downloadable from our website at:
http://aeroelectric.com/PPS
you can acquire any version of TurboCAD v7.0 or higher
like item 270022950768 on
http://ebay.com
Browse through the directories in the link to our
website and you'll find AutoCAD .dwg files that probably
contain 98% of your proposed wirebook already drawn up
for you.
All you need to do is import, edit to your needs, save
and print the page per system drawings needed for your
project.
Here's the list of commands that cover 99% of all my
AutoCAD actions:
AR, *ARRAY
B, *BLOCK
WB, *WRITEBLOCK
BR, *BREAK
CI, *CIRCLE
C, *CHANGE
CH, *CHAMFER
CO, *COPY
D, *DIMSTYLE
DI, *DIST
DO, *DONUT
DT, *DTEXT
E, *ERASE
ED, *DDEDIT
EL, *ELLIPSE
XT, *EXTEND
EXIT, *QUIT
F, *FILLET
H, *HATCH
I, *INSERT
L, *LINE
LA, *LAYER
LI, *LIST
LT, *LINETYPE
M, *MOVE
MI, *MIRROR
OF, *OFFSET
OS, *OSNAP
P, *PAN
PE, *PEDIT
PL, *PLINE
PG, *POLYGON
P, *PURGE
R, *REDRAW
RG, *REGEN
RT, *RECTANGLE
REN *RENAME
RO, *ROTATE
S, *STRETCH
SC, *SCALE
SCR, *SCRIPT
T, *TRIM
V, *VIEW
XP, *EXPLODE
Z, *ZOOM
AutoCAD, TurboCAD and others are capable of
responding to hundreds of commands . . . ALL of
which are described in the well rounded tutorial.
However, if one acquires a proficiency in the
short-list cited above, I believe you'll find
that a $low$ copy of TurboCAD will be exceedingly
useful not only for your wirebook tasks . . . but
lots of drawing tasks for other projects. It's
a good resource and skill to acquire.
Bob . . .
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Dynon D10A Boom AOA |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ed Anderson" <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
Hi Ron,
The AOA technique used by Dynon appears to be to measure the differential
pressure between the pitot tube port and an angled reference port in their
AOA probe. As the angle of attack changes so will the pressure
differential. So you would need two tubes (if using tubes) one aligned with
the longitudinal axis of the aircraft and one at an angle (I am not certain
but I think Dynon's angle port is at about 45 deg from the pitot port axis).
Since the Dynon system is set up for this angle difference in their
computation, it would be important to try to duplicate this angular
difference as close as possible. Also, the airflow around the tip of a tube
can result vortex generation as opposed to a hole drilled in a nominal
airfoil shaped probe which can cause pressure fluctuation. If I were to
choose to build my own probe for the Dynon system, I would attempt to copy
the Dynon probe as close as I could.
I have designed and built an AOA system using a similar approach - works on
the bench with a air blower but have not installed it in the aircraft as
yet.
Ed
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson@carolina.rr.com
http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
.
----- Original Message -----
From: <rparigor@SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US>
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 11:02 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Dynon D10A Boom AOA
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
>
> I have a Dynon D10A. Would be nice to use the AOA feature. Already have a
> pitot/static under wing of my Europa.
>
> I am thinking a probe high up on the rudder may work and not complicate
> rigging the wings or hurting anything when wings go on trailer.
>
> Dynon sells a boom mount AOA/pitot, part number is 100532-000 but it is 1"
> in diameter and has a pitot.
>
> I am thinking something like a thin wall 5/16" or 1/4" tube, with 1" of
> the tip turned up, flattened, and plugged up and a hole drilled.
>
> Has anyone mounted a AOA on rudder?
>
> Know where to buy one?
>
> Made one?
>
> Thx.
> Ron Parigoris
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Is EFIS vulnerable at engine start? |
In a message dated 8/30/2006 8:06:57 AM Eastern Standard Time,
smineart@mahaska.org writes:
The obsolescence of the avionics switch and bus has been well-discussed,
but: is a Dynon EFIS on the E-bus vulnerable to current fluctuations during
engine startup? My ignition and starter will be powered from the always-hot
battery bus, so I could wait to switch on the master until immediately after
starting- would this be advisable? Does the display need its own switch?
Steve Mineart
CH-601/Corvair
Do not archive
==========================================
Steve:
I spoke with Blue Mountain and they said to keep the EFIS off until after
start up. I also shut the EFIS down before shutting down the engine. I
installed a Pull CB to act as a switch.
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
"Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third
time."
Yamashiada
Message 5
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| Subject: | Is EFIS vulnerable at engine start? |
Dynon disagrees...
The following exchange came from Dynon's message board:
Question: "I've just installed my D10A and as advised in the instructions
wired it through a 2 amp fuse. Since I didn't order the internal battery, I
did not connect the "stay alive" wire and also did not install a separate
power switch. The unit comes on when I turn on the master switch without my
pressing the unit's power button. I assume this in normal, but can I have
problems with power spikes during engine start? Should I install a separate
power switch in the Dynon circuit? If not, should I turn off the EFIS
before engine start?"
Answer, from Dynon Support:
"The EFIS is indeed designed to come alive when power is applied.
Many customers install the EFIS in exactly the same electrical configuration
you have set up. The unit will not be damaged by having it on during engine
start, but it may reboot if the voltage momentarily drops below 10V.
Also, since you did not purchase the internal battery, you may want to
connect the keep alive wire to power the clock when your master switch is
off. Otherwise it will reset after every power cycle."
I hope this is useful...
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
FLYaDIVE@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 7:41 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Is EFIS vulnerable at engine start?
In a message dated 8/30/2006 8:06:57 AM Eastern Standard Time,
smineart@mahaska.org writes:
The obsolescence of the avionics switch and bus has been well-discussed,
but: is a Dynon EFIS on the E-bus vulnerable to current fluctuations
during
engine startup? My ignition and starter will be powered from the
always-hot
battery bus, so I could wait to switch on the master until immediately
after
starting- would this be advisable? Does the display need its own switch?
Steve Mineart
CH-601/Corvair
Do not archive
==========================================
Steve:
I spoke with Blue Mountain and they said to keep the EFIS off until after
start up. I also shut the EFIS down before shutting down the engine. I
installed a Pull CB to act as a switch.
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
"Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third
time."
Yamashiada
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Dynon D10A Boom AOA |
The only problem you will have is that the Dynon requires their AOA Pitot to
function as the AOA function requires a differential pressure variance to
indicate the lift potential.
If you use the Dynon AOA Pitot tube it will only take care of the AOA
function and you will still have to supply a separate static port for the other
Dynon instrument functions.
Message 7
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| Subject: | Is EFIS vulnerable at engine start? |
And I think that I would spring for a $10 switch as just a tiny bit more
protection on my $3000 instrument.
Spikes Happen
Al
General Aviation - Pricing People Out Daily
On 08/30/2006 7:56:01 AM, Bill Denton (bdenton@bdenton.com) wrote:
> Dynon disagrees...
>
> The following exchange came from
> Dynon's message board:
>
> Question: "I've just installed my D10A and as
> advised in the instructions wired it through a 2 amp fuse. Since I
> didn't order the internal battery, I did not connect the "stay alive"
wire and also did not install a separate power switch. The unit comes on
when I turn on the master switch without my pressing the unit's
> power button. I assume this in normal, but can I have problems with
power
> spikes during engine start? Should I install a separate power switch
in
> the Dynon circuit? If not, should I turn off the EFIS before engine
> start?"
>
>
> Answer, from Dynon Support:
>
> "The EFIS is indeed
> designed to come alive when power is applied.
>
> Many customers install the EFIS in exactly the same electrical
> configuration you have set up. The unit will not be damaged by having
it
> on during engine start, but it may reboot if the voltage momentarily
drops
> below 10V.
>
> Also, since you did not purchase the internal battery, you may want to
> connect the keep alive wire to power the clock when your master switch
is
> off. Otherwise it will reset after every power
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: "Paddle Type" Flap position switch? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 10:08 PM 8/29/2006 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Larry Rosen <LarryRosen@comcast.net>
>
>Avionics Systems has one. Quite pricey at $90 each. See it here
><http://www.avionikits.com/>.
>
>Or maybe ebay. Here was a Cessna 150 switch that sold for $9.
><http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Cessna150-Flap-Switch_W0QQitemZ190020853902QQcmdZViewItem>
>
>Larry Rosen
>RV10 #356
Tried to check this out but it seems to have been removed
from Ebay's listings. Be cautious of "Cessna flap switch"
listings. Some airplanes do use a switch modified to add
the "flap" shape to the toggle. Other Cessna flap "switches"
are really an assembly of flap handle, microswitches and
a moveable mounting plate for switches that is driven by
a Bowden cable attached to flaps. This is a rudimentary
servo-system developed at Cessna for a set-it-and-forget-it
style flap control and is probably not well suited to most
OBAM aircraft projects. Although I'll have to admit that
the idea was pretty clever!
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Is EFIS vulnerable at engine start? |
I can add a bit to this.
Mine is a D-100 but essentially the same.
It has never blinked on engine start. This may very well be because
I have an internal battery. However, The good news is that if it
does require a reboot, it comes up with a useable attitude and
airspeed in a few seconds (three to five). The altitude tape takes
another while. This rapid erection is so fast and has seemed so
reliable that I have checked it in flight several times when the
system has become addled after multiple gyrations caused by
continuous loops, cloverleafs and whifferdills. In each case it
comes up, in level flight, in the same five seconds. If left on its
own, it can take almost a minute to get straight after a good thrashing.
I should hasten to add that this does not happen very often, although
I do the multiple aerobatic quite often.
I really like the unit, especially since the new horizontal compass
card is available as a split screen option.
Denis Walsh
On Aug 30, 2006, at 07:56 249610008, Bill Denton wrote:
> Dynon disagrees...
>
> The following exchange came from Dynon's message board:
>
> Question: "I've just installed my D10A and as advised in the
> instructions wired it through a 2 amp fuse. Since I didn't order
> the internal battery, I did not connect the "stay alive" wire and
> also did not install a separate power switch. The unit comes on
> when I turn on the master switch without my pressing the unit's
> power button. I assume this in normal, but can I have problems
> with power spikes during engine start? Should I install a separate
> power switch in the Dynon circuit? If not, should I turn off the
> EFIS before engine start?"
>
>
> Answer, from Dynon Support:
>
> "The EFIS is indeed designed to come alive when power is applied.
>
> Many customers install the EFIS in exactly the same electrical
> configuration you have set up. The unit will not be damaged by
> having it on during engine start, but it may reboot if the voltage
> momentarily drops below 10V.
>
> Also, since you did not purchase the internal battery, you may want
> to connect the keep alive wire to power the clock when your master
> switch is off. Otherwise it will reset after every power cycle."
>
> I hope this is useful...
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-
> aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE@aol.com
> Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 7:41 AM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Is EFIS vulnerable at engine start?
>
> In a message dated 8/30/2006 8:06:57 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> smineart@mahaska.org writes:
> The obsolescence of the avionics switch and bus has been well-
> discussed,
> but: is a Dynon EFIS on the E-bus vulnerable to current
> fluctuations during
> engine startup? My ignition and starter will be powered from the
> always-hot
> battery bus, so I could wait to switch on the master until
> immediately after
> starting- would this be advisable? Does the display need its own
> switch?
> Steve Mineart
> CH-601/Corvair
> Do not archive
> ==========================================
> Steve:
>
>
> I spoke with Blue Mountain and they said to keep the EFIS off until
> after start up. I also shut the EFIS down before shutting down the
> engine. I installed a Pull CB to act as a switch.
>
>
> Barry
> "Chop'd Liver"
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Is EFIS vulnerable at engine start? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 08:41 AM 8/30/2006 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 8/30/2006 8:06:57 AM Eastern Standard Time,
>smineart@mahaska.org writes:
>The obsolescence of the avionics switch and bus has been well-discussed,
>but: is a Dynon EFIS on the E-bus vulnerable to current fluctuations during
>engine startup? My ignition and starter will be powered from the always-hot
>battery bus, so I could wait to switch on the master until immediately after
>starting- would this be advisable? Does the display need its own switch?
>Steve Mineart
>CH-601/Corvair
>Do not archive
>
>==========================================
>Steve:
>
>
>I spoke with Blue Mountain and they said to keep the EFIS off until after
>start up. I also shut the EFIS down before shutting down the engine. I
>installed a Pull CB to act as a switch.
I believe the question was about a Dynon system, not
Blue Mountain. Hopefully, the folks at Dynon are a bit
more agile in their management of input power
perturbations than Blue Mountain . . . the very
best source of lucid answer is from Dynon. Let us
know what they say.
A side note: I'll suggest that your ignition system
operate from the always hot bus as you've described
but the starter control should power from the main
bus so that it's disabled when the master switch
is OFF.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
Message 11
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| Subject: | Is EFIS vulnerable at engine start? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 07:56 AM 8/30/2006 -0500, you wrote:
>Dynon disagrees...
>
>The following exchange came from Dynon's message board:
>
>Question: "I've just installed my D10A and as advised in the instructions
>wired it through a 2 amp fuse. Since I didn't order the internal battery,
>I did not connect the "stay alive" wire and also did not install a
>separate power switch. The unit comes on when I turn on the master switch
>without my pressing the unit's power button. I assume this in normal, but
>can I have problems with power spikes during engine start? Should I
>install a separate power switch in the Dynon circuit? If not, should I
>turn off the EFIS before engine start?"
>
>
>Answer, from Dynon Support:
>
>"The EFIS is indeed designed to come alive when power is applied.
>
>Many customers install the EFIS in exactly the same electrical
>configuration you have set up. The unit will not be damaged by having it
>on during engine start, but it may reboot if the voltage momentarily drops
>below 10V.
>
>Also, since you did not purchase the internal battery, you may want to
>connect the keep alive wire to power the clock when your master switch is
>off. Otherwise it will reset after every power cycle."
>
>I hope this is useful...
Aha! thank you sir for doing this research
and offering the resulting data.
If I'm interpreting their reply correctly, it
is useful to run their keep-alive wire to
the always hot battery bus to support the internal
clock.
I note that Dynon has published their installation
manuals at:
http://www.dynonavionics.com/docs/support_documentation.html
I've not read them in detail but what I had time
to look at seems lucid and complete . . . including
descriptions of the connector pin-outs.
Bob . . .
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Turn on ALT before engine start? (Yes Airmanship) |
Bob:
It is called Airmanship. Standardization, Procedures, Checklist.
I hate to be boring and repeat my self, but do it as the AFM, AOM
or checklist says. Granted if "experimental" you can set any procedure
you want, BUT WHY NOT stay with the standard method / procedure.
Bob as a CFII-MET, ATP and professional instructor I reject the, it
does not matter, attitude. On the B767 for example you are trained
to turn hydraulic pumps on and off in a certain order. Well the smart
pilots say it does not matter. However they have out smarted them
selves. When done out of sequence or reversing the order you
transfer fluid from one system to another and end up over full on
one system and low on the other over time.
Second is human factors. I worked for Boeing and developing or
evaluating small changes in check list. LESS IS MORE. You don't
need to do extra steps than DON'T. Don't make it up as you go. BE
CONSISTANT and FOLLOW PROCEDURES, every time. Why be
different than Piper or Cessna in your experimental? If you don't need
to or have a good reason to change the procedure DON'T. Some day
it will bite you.
Last, internally regulated alterantors have automatic control of the
voltage regulator and do not require manual selection. Doing manual
selection is going against the way it was designed. Many have
"soft start" and delays built into the chip. If you don't have first hand
knowledge of how it's designed than I suggest you follow the
PROCEDURE that was established for the application that alternator
was originally designed for, e.g., a automobile. How many automobiles
require the driver the switch the alternator on and off manually? ZERO
I know Boys will be Boys and throwing switches is weeeeee, fun, but
resist the urge to play Top Gun, Space Shuttle Captain. KISS
Keep it Simple Scientific-man.
I think your observations Bob are weak and insignificant. :-)
Yea, standardization and check list are stupid (not).
You must be fun to work with Bob, when you tell people their input
is insignificant. Bob, there are other factors to consider that are not
related to electrons alone. You need to get up from you bench and
go fly more. Human factors, AFM's and checklist are key, critical
to aviation safety. To get into a NIT PICK of the esoterica of who
is more correct is counter productive.
Repeat: FOLLOW THE CHECKLIST AS DESIGNED BY A TEAM
OF ENGINEER'S (who have covered all bases) AND IS APPROVED
BY THE FAA. If experimental try to follow industry standards, which
is: ALT on before start, ALT off after shutdown. Simple.
Cheers George (boring and following standardization and checklist)
>From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
>posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
>>posted by: "Bill Denton" <bdenton@bdenton.com>
>>
>>In an airplane equipped with a Continental 0-200, would you want to
>>turn on the ALT switch before engine start, or after?
>It makes no difference. The arguments for and against
>either philosophy are not backed by good science meaning
>that effects cited as undesirable are so weak as to be
>insignificant.
---------------------------------
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail.
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Wire drawing software |
Ed,
Which version did you get?
Dan Hopper
do not archive
In a message dated 8/29/2006 10:06:31 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
eddieedwards@mindspring.com writes:
www: _www.capilano.com_ (http://www.capilano.com/)
I tried the trial version and loved it. Then purchased.
With all the blocks to drag and drop and neat wring, it makes doing
schematics fun.
I have AutoCad but this software is too easy.
Happy building and flying,
Ed
RV7 in the works.
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Turn on ALT before engine start? (Yes Airmanship) |
Here's a bit of background on my question...
I was considering panel layouts for an OBAM (Experimental) aircraft, so
there would be no "procedures" other than what I set myself.
I am a firm believer in standardization as I have done a great deal of
computer software development, and I always follow the human interface
standards unless there is a very good reason not to.
But there may rarely be reasons for overriding a standard, or you may have
conflicting standards. For example, workflow patterns are typically set
using a "left to right; top to bottom" flow model.
You will note that in most small single engine aircraft, the standard is to
have the mag/starter switch on the left, with the master switch(es) (bat and
alt) on the right. This violates the typical workflow model as you must
first turn on the battery master (at minimum), then move left to start the
aircraft.
I am considering overriding the "standard" placement and using a
workflow-based placement.
In this instance, you would have the battery master on the left, with the
mag/starter switch to the right.
The question then arises as to when the alt switch should be turned on, and
I recall reading someplace at some time (how's that for precision!) that it
might be best not to turn on the alt switch until after engine start.
If you would turn on the alt switch before engine start, I would use a
layout of: battery master - alt - mag/starter.
But if you would turn the alt switch on after engine start, I would use a
layout of: battery master - mag/starter - alt.
The concept would be maintaining the left-to-right workflow model...
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 9:08 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Turn on ALT before engine start? (Yes
Airmanship)
Bob:
It is called Airmanship. Standardization, Procedures, Checklist.
I hate to be boring and repeat my self, but do it as the AFM, AOM
or checklist says. Granted if "experimental" you can set any procedure
you want, BUT WHY NOT stay with the standard method / procedure.
Bob as a CFII-MET, ATP and professional instructor I reject the, it
does not matter, attitude. On the B767 for example you are trained
to turn hydraulic pumps on and off in a certain order. Well the smart
pilots say it does not matter. However they have out smarted them
selves. When done out of sequence or reversing the order you
transfer fluid from one system to another and end up over full on
one system and low on the other over time.
Second is human factors. I worked for Boeing and developing or
evaluating small changes in check list. LESS IS MORE. You don't
need to do extra steps than DON'T. Don't make it up as you go. BE
CONSISTANT and FOLLOW PROCEDURES, every time. Why be
different than Piper or Cessna in your experimental? If you don't need
to or have a good reason to change the procedure DON'T. Some day
it will bite you.
Last, internally regulated alterantors have automatic control of the
voltage regulator and do not require manual selection. Doing manual
selection is going against the way it was designed. Many have
"soft start" and delays built into the chip. If you don't have first hand
knowledge of how it's designed than I suggest you follow the
PROCEDURE that was established for the application that alternator
was originally designed for, e.g., a automobile. How many automobiles
require the driver the switch the alternator on and off manually? ZERO
I know Boys will be Boys and throwing switches is weeeeee, fun, but
resist the urge to play Top Gun, Space Shuttle Captain. KISS
Keep it Simple Scientific-man.
I think your observations Bob are weak and insignificant. :-)
Yea, standardization and check list are stupid (not).
You must be fun to work with Bob, when you tell people their input
is insignificant. Bob, there are other factors to consider that are not
related to electrons alone. You need to get up from you bench and
go fly more. Human factors, AFM's and checklist are key, critical
to aviation safety. To get into a NIT PICK of the esoterica of who
is more correct is counter productive.
Repeat: FOLLOW THE CHECKLIST AS DESIGNED BY A TEAM
OF ENGINEER'S (who have covered all bases) AND IS APPROVED
BY THE FAA. If experimental try to follow industry standards, which
is: ALT on before start, ALT off after shutdown. Simple.
Cheers George (boring and following standardization and checklist)
>From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
>posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
>>posted by: "Bill Denton" <bdenton@bdenton.com>
>>
>>In an airplane equipped with a Continental 0-200, would you want to
>>turn on the ALT switch before engine start, or after?
>It makes no difference. The arguments for and against
>either philosophy are not backed by good science meaning
>that effects cited as undesirable are so weak as to be
>insignificant.
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Garmin D sub pin removal ?? |
SteinAir has a tool for these pins listed at $5.00
http://www.steinair.com/connectors.htm
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 24 Msgs - 08/29/06 |
Guys: I am experimenting with a home grown moving map display system based
on a 12v mini-PC and 12v LCD display. I plan to use one of the commercially
available navigation software packages and an input from my GPS to drive it.
Question: Any experience with operating systems in this environment? I am
aware of the altitude issues with hard drives but have not been privy to any
operating system discussions. One popular software package comes ported on
either Windows CE or Windows XPHome. I'm told that XP Home is more robust
and less crash prone but that it routinely swaps files with its memory which
means (I had never heard this one before) that it will "wear out" a flash
card used as a solid state memory in a certain number of swap operations.
For that reason, I was advised to go with a ruggedized HD and XP Home, not
with a flash card and CE as I was originally planning.
Any experience and/or comments on this challenge?
Message 17
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| Subject: | Is EFIS vulnerable at engine start? |
Blue Mountain's EFIS/one was designed by someone who thinks all airplanes
should have a 28 volt electrical system, so it can't handle the drop in
voltage during engine start. But, it also has all of my engine gauges, so I
had to install a second battery to keep the engine and starter on separate
busses during start-up. Maybe I should have just relied on a low oil
pressure light to tell me what I really need to know about the engine during
start-up.
Terry
RV-8A still finishing
Seattle
I spoke with Blue Mountain and they said to keep the EFIS off until after
start up. I also shut the EFIS down before shutting down the engine. I
installed a Pull CB to act as a switch.
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Airmanship, Science and Ruts (was alternator switching). |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 07:08 AM 8/30/2006 -0700, you wrote:
>Bob:
>
>It is called Airmanship. Standardization, Procedures, Checklist.
>
>I hate to be boring and repeat my self, but do it as the AFM, AOM
>or checklist says. Granted if "experimental" you can set any procedure
>you want, BUT WHY NOT stay with the standard method / procedure.
George, this is a forum on the design, fabrication and
operation of aircraft supported by the simple-ideas that
bound function and limits. If there's an argument with a
published procedure, I expect to explain the foundation
for that argument.
>
>I think your observations Bob are weak and insignificant. :-)
Observations of the science? Exactly what observation do
you object to?
>
>Yea, standardization and check list are stupid (not).
Do you dream about these discussions? Where have
I written that standardization and check lists are
"stupid" . . .
>
>You must be fun to work with Bob, when you tell people their input
>is insignificant.
I can't help it if someone anthropomorphizes an idea.
I'm not paid to be "fun", I'm paid to study my craft and share
what I've learned with those who choose to invite me to their
sandbox. In arena of ideas, nobody's input is insignificant as
long as the goal of discussion is to sort and assemble the
simple-ideas into the best-we-know-how-to-do. I can't help
it if someone translates my words into personal attacks . . .
beating up on folks is not my style.
>Bob, there are other factors to consider that are not
>related to electrons alone. You need to get up from you bench and
>go fly more. Human factors, AFM's and checklist are key, critical
>to aviation safety.
No argument.
> To get into a NIT PICK of the esoterica of who
>is more correct is counter productive.
Input with no supporting explanation IS worthy of skepticism.
It becomes insignificant when examination of the science doesn't
support it.
Now, if you wish to discuss POH procedures from a human factors
perspective, be my guest . . . but that wasn't the question
I perceived and answered.
>
>Repeat: FOLLOW THE CHECKLIST AS DESIGNED BY A TEAM
>OF ENGINEER'S (who have covered all bases) AND IS APPROVED
>BY THE FAA. If experimental try to follow industry standards, which
>is: ALT on before start, ALT off after shutdown. Simple.
I've never said that a POH procedure was to be ignored
or was even wrong without a lucid explanation as to why.
I was answering what I believe was the core question. Is
there hazard to hardware for adopting one procedure over
another for turning the alternator ON and OFF? The answer
in the physics was, "NO, with caveats noted."
I've ALWAYS supported the development and use of checklists.
The question before us was, "What should the builder adopt
for HIS checklist?" I offered that there was no reason
in the physics to favor one action over another: he could
adopt any technique his wished.
>
>Cheers George (boring and following standardization and checklist)
Mindless acceptance of traditional policy and procedures promotes
several conditions: (1) The approval of your supervisors and
regulators, (2) stagnation of progress, (3) suppression of curiosity,
(4) constraint of understanding and (5) loss of opportunity
to improve on the-best-we-know-how-to-do. There are additional
effects but those are pretty key . . .
Now, if YOU believe alternator operations described in the
C-150 POH are golden from EITHER human factors perspectives, science
OR BOTH, stand up and explain why the original questioner should
hold it in high regard with respect to the crafting of HIS
personal POH.
Speaking of worship at the altar of POH, I'm aware of no
published procedure where the pilot is told "Do not
switch the alternator ON or OFF at times not specifically
cited in this handbook." From this I infer (and physics supports)
the notion that there is no perceived hazard to equipment
for doing it.
You have written that there's no reason for wanting to
turn alternators ON or OFF at will. The assertion was then
morphed into a design goal for installation of automotive
alternators on aircraft without regard for their special operating
limitations. Choose your words carefully George. You're already
on record for having argued more against traditional POH
procedures and system performance goals than I.
Bob . . .
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Turn on ALT before engine start? (Yes Airmanship) |
In a message dated 8/30/2006 10:52:13 AM Eastern Standard Time,
bdenton@bdenton.com writes:
You will note that in most small single engine aircraft, the standard is to
have the mag/starter switch on the left, with the master switch(es) (bat and
alt) on the right. This violates the typical workflow model as you must first
turn on the battery master (at minimum), then move left to start the aircraft.
I am considering overriding the "standard" placement and using a
workflow-based placement.
In this instance, you would have the battery master on the left, with the
mag/starter switch to the right
============================================================
This would have been a good idea if it was done about 50 years ago. The
problem is all of your training and 99.93% of everyone else's was done to the old
standard. You have been conditioned over the years and hopefully just like a
concert violinist trained your muscles to react. I'm not saying you can't be
retrained but the rules of 'Precedence' overrides 'Rote'.
I mention everyone else because there may be times when you may want to or
need to have someone else fly your plane.
Also, there is a little bit of a physical reason why things were original
done with the Mags to the outside. It was because you can accidentally shutoff
the Master without any serious consequences. But, if you shut off the engine
you now have to pray it will restart.
Years ago I was given the training aid ... Down & Out is OFF - That goes for
two situations Switches & Controls - and - The Start Up / Shut Down
procedure. Starting at center panel you go DOWN and then OUT to both the Right
and
Left. This works for many planes especially one that is not yours or is new to
you. It is also a double check as you go back to center. Human nature takes
you BACK the same path you went out on.
As far as things violating the typical workflow model, well just about ALL of
flying does that. Thinking back, what was normal, natural or standard when
you were taking your training? Maybe the Push forward to go Down, Pull Back to
go UP but what about the Pull Back more to GO DOWN. That still has me
confused. Left & Right are OK, but again, what about the things you do with the
Rudder? Crazy ain't it!
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
"Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third
time."
Yamashiada
Message 20
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| Subject: | RE: Turn on ALT before engine start? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 09:47 AM 8/30/2006 -0500, you wrote:
>Here's a bit of background on my question...
>
>I was considering panel layouts for an OBAM (Experimental) aircraft, so
>there would be no "procedures" other than what I set myself.
>
>I am a firm believer in standardization as I have done a great deal of
>computer software development, and I always follow the human interface
>standards unless there is a very good reason not to.
>
>But there may rarely be reasons for overriding a standard, or you may have
>conflicting standards. For example, workflow patterns are typically set
>using a "left to right; top to bottom" flow model.
>
>You will note that in most small single engine aircraft, the standard is
>to have the mag/starter switch on the left, with the master switch(es)
>(bat and alt) on the right. This violates the typical workflow model as
>you must first turn on the battery master (at minimum), then move left to
>start the aircraft.
>
>I am considering overriding the "standard" placement and using a
>workflow-based placement.
>
>In this instance, you would have the battery master on the left, with the
>mag/starter switch to the right.
>
>The question then arises as to when the alt switch should be turned on,
>and I recall reading someplace at some time (how's that for precision!)
>that it might be best not to turn on the alt switch until after engine start.
>
>If you would turn on the alt switch before engine start, I would use a
>layout of: battery master - alt - mag/starter.
>
>But if you would turn the alt switch on after engine start, I would use a
>layout of: battery master - mag/starter - alt.
>
>The concept would be maintaining the left-to-right workflow model...
Very good sir. A lucid consideration of both human factors
and the value of procedures but within the OBAM aviation venue.
This validates my perceptions of your question and does not
change my answer. Thank you for the clarification.
Bob . . .
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Is EFIS vulnerable at engine start? |
Terry:
I also have the Grand Rapids EIS in the same plane and their instructions ar
e
to leave it on all the time.
Go Figure!
Barry
==================
Blue Mountain=99s EFIS/one was designed by someone who thinks all airp
lanes
should have a 28 volt electrical system, so it can=99t handle the drop
in voltage
during engine start. But, it also has all of my engine gauges, so I had to
install a second battery to keep the engine and starter on separate busses d
uring
start-up. Maybe I should have just relied on a low oil pressure light to tel
l
me what I really need to know about the engine during start-up.
Terry
RV-8A still finishing
Seattle
I spoke with Blue Mountain and they said to keep the EFIS off until after
start up. I also shut the EFIS down before shutting down the engine. I
installed a Pull CB to act as a switch.
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
Message 22
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| Subject: | Is EFIS vulnerable at engine start? |
We've got a D-10 without internal battery in our RV, on the E-bus. When
the master and/or E-bus switches are turned on before start, the EFIS
comes on. Starting the engine browns it out. Sometimes it comes back up,
sometimes it doesn't and must be disconnected by momentarily pulling the
breaker before it will re-boot. Thus, we have written into the checklist
to verify breaker pulled before start and at shutdown.
Incidentally, we have a LSE Plasma 1 ignition on one side and it starts
reliably with never a kickback even though we are (apparently) dropping
the bus voltage below 10v.
Pax,
Ed Holyoke
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill
Denton
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 5:56 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Is EFIS vulnerable at engine start?
Dynon disagrees...
The following exchange came from Dynon's message board:
Question: "I've just installed my D10A and as advised in the
instructions wired it through a 2 amp fuse. Since I didn't order the
internal battery, I did not connect the "stay alive" wire and also did
not install a separate power switch. The unit comes on when I turn on
the master switch without my pressing the unit's power button. I assume
this in normal, but can I have problems with power spikes during engine
start? Should I install a separate power switch in the Dynon circuit?
If not, should I turn off the EFIS before engine start?"
Answer, from Dynon Support:
"The EFIS is indeed designed to come alive when power is applied.
Many customers install the EFIS in exactly the same electrical
configuration you have set up. The unit will not be damaged by having it
on during engine start, but it may reboot if the voltage momentarily
drops below 10V.
Also, since you did not purchase the internal battery, you may want to
connect the keep alive wire to power the clock when your master switch
is off. Otherwise it will reset after every power cycle."
I hope this is useful...
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
FLYaDIVE@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 7:41 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Is EFIS vulnerable at engine start?
In a message dated 8/30/2006 8:06:57 AM Eastern Standard Time,
smineart@mahaska.org writes:
The obsolescence of the avionics switch and bus has been well-discussed,
but: is a Dynon EFIS on the E-bus vulnerable to current fluctuations
during
engine startup? My ignition and starter will be powered from the
always-hot
battery bus, so I could wait to switch on the master until immediately
after
starting- would this be advisable? Does the display need its own
switch?
Steve Mineart
CH-601/Corvair
Do not archive
==========================================
Steve:
I spoke with Blue Mountain and they said to keep the EFIS off until
after start up. I also shut the EFIS down before shutting down the
engine. I installed a Pull CB to act as a switch.
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
"Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the
third
time."
Yamashiada
matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Message 23
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| Subject: | Is EFIS vulnerable at engine start? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dave N6030X <N6030X@DaveMorris.com>
You could stick something like this in between your electrical system
and your EFIS:
http://store.mp3car.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=PWR-012
This will handle short complete outages of power and is designed to
keep a PC running in a car even during cranking.
There's a whole crop of "carputer" devices that are showing up now,
that may be interesting for aviation.
Dave Morris
At 10:46 AM 8/30/2006, you wrote:
>Blue Mountain's EFIS/one was designed by someone who thinks all
>airplanes should have a 28 volt electrical system, so it can't
>handle the drop in voltage during engine start. But, it also has all
>of my engine gauges, so I had to install a second battery to keep
>the engine and starter on separate busses during start-up. Maybe I
>should have just relied on a low oil pressure light to tell me what
>I really need to know about the engine during start-up.
>
>Terry
>RV-8A still finishing
>Seattle
>
>
>I spoke with Blue Mountain and they said to keep the EFIS off until
>after start up. I also shut the EFIS down before shutting down the
>engine. I installed a Pull CB to act as a switch.
>
>
>Barry
>"Chop'd Liver"
>
>
><http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
><http://www.matronics.com/contribution>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Moving map Operating System considerations |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dave N6030X <N6030X@DaveMorris.com>
You might put that question to the experimenters on the Yahoo group
listed at the very bottom of www.MyGlassCockpit.com
Dave Morris
At 10:46 AM 8/30/2006, you wrote:
>Guys: I am experimenting with a home grown moving map display system
>based on a 12v mini-PC and 12v LCD display. I plan to use one of
>the commercially available navigation software packages and an input
>from my GPS to drive it.
>
>Question: Any experience with operating systems in this
>environment? I am aware of the altitude issues with hard drives but
>have not been privy to any operating system discussions. One
>popular software package comes ported on either Windows CE or
>Windows XPHome. I'm told that XP Home is more robust and less crash
>prone but that it routinely swaps files with its memory which means
>(I had never heard this one before) that it will "wear out" a flash
>card used as a solid state memory in a certain number of swap
>operations. For that reason, I was advised to go with a ruggedized
>HD and XP Home, not with a flash card and CE as I was originally planning.
>
>Any experience and/or comments on this challenge?
>
>
><http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
><http://www.matronics.com/contribution>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Is EFIS vulnerable at engine start? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 12:05 PM 8/30/2006 -0400, you wrote:
>I also have the Grand Rapids EIS in the same plane and their instructions
>are to leave it on all the time.
>Go Figure!
>==================
>Blue Mountain's EFIS/one was designed by someone who thinks all airplanes
>should have a 28 volt electrical system, so it can't handle the drop in
>voltage during engine start. But, it also has all of my engine gauges, so
>I had to install a second battery to keep the engine and starter on
>separate busses during start-up. Maybe I should have just relied on a low
>oil pressure light to tell me what I really need to know about the engine
>during start-up.
>==================
>I spoke with Blue Mountain and they said to keep the EFIS off until after
>start up. I also shut the EFIS down before shutting down the engine. I
>installed a Pull CB to act as a switch.
DO-160 design philosophies have been with us for
decades. It's unfortunate that some otherwise
capable individuals do not take advantage of
recipes for success that are free for the taking.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator Switching |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dave N6030X <N6030X@DaveMorris.com>
My scratch-built Dragonfly did not come with a POH. And my 1960
Mooney POH doesn't tell me what order to switch them on either. I
suspect most of the people on this list are building experimentals
and will be WRITING the POH.
Dave
At 09:08 AM 8/30/2006, you wrote:
>Repeat: FOLLOW THE CHECKLIST AS DESIGNED BY A TEAM
>OF ENGINEER'S (who have covered all bases) AND IS APPROVED
>BY THE FAA. If experimental try to follow industry standards, which
>is: ALT on before start, ALT off after shutdown. Simple.
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Is EFIS vulnerable at engine start? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-av@lloyd.com>
On Aug 30, 2006, at 6:51 AM, A DeMarzo wrote:
> And I think that I would spring for a $10 switch as just a tiny bit
> more protection on my $3000 instrument.
>
> Spikes Happen
This is an old wives' tale. I am amazed at how long this one has
persisted. The only "spike" are you going to have to deal with in
your airplane is load-dump from the alternator after turning off a
big load. And that will be absorbed by the battery. The "spike" that
happens during start is just the voltage sag due to the huge load
presented by the starter. If you don't believe me, put a 'scope on
your bus and watch it while starting the engine. No "spike".
Hasn't this one been beaten to death?
And as for Blue Mountain telling you to turn off your EFIS during
start, that is only a problem with 14V electrical systems where the
starter can draw the bus down to a voltage below which the BM-EFIS'
power supply will work. That is why Greg at BM likes 28V electrical
systems. His equipment does not reboot during start with a 28V
electrical system. It makes sense to me too.
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian HYPHEN av AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Turn on ALT before engine start? (Yes Airmanship) |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-av@lloyd.com>
On Aug 30, 2006, at 7:08 AM, <gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com>
<gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Repeat: FOLLOW THE CHECKLIST AS DESIGNED BY A TEAM
> OF ENGINEER'S (who have covered all bases) AND IS APPROVED
> BY THE FAA. If experimental try to follow industry standards, which
> is: ALT on before start, ALT off after shutdown. Simple.
It is possible that a team of engineers may have produced a checklist
for specific reasons but most check lists only ensure you perform all
the steps and sequence is not an issue. I am aware of checklists that
were constructed by the manufacturer just that way, by random chance.
Changing the checklist to improve logical grouping or cockpit flow is
actually sensible.
You make a good point about understanding the systems. You understand
why there is a start-up order for the hydraulic systems in the B767.
Systems understanding is very important.
And when you understand the single-battery, single-bus, single-
alternator-with-external-regulation system used in almost all TC
singles, you will know that turning on the alternator with the master
or after start is a non-issue. IT DOES NOT MATTER.
Slavish adherence to old procedures without any thought is bad
practice also.
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian HYPHEN av AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Turn on ALT before engine start? (Yes Airmanship) |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-av@lloyd.com>
On Aug 30, 2006, at 8:57 AM, FLYaDIVE@aol.com wrote:
> I am considering overriding the "standard" placement and using a
> workflow-based placement.
>
> In this instance, you would have the battery master on the left,
> with the mag/starter switch to the right
> ===================================
> This would have been a good idea if it was done about 50 years
> ago. The problem is all of your training and 99.93% of everyone
> else's was done to the old standard. You have been conditioned
> over the years and hopefully just like a concert violinist trained
> your muscles to react. I'm not saying you can't be retrained but
> the rules of 'Precedence' overrides 'Rote'.
> I mention everyone else because there may be times when you may
> want to or need to have someone else fly your plane.
> Also, there is a little bit of a physical reason why things were
> original done with the Mags to the outside. It was because you can
> accidentally shutoff the Master without any serious consequences.
> But, if you shut off the engine you now have to pray it will restart.
I think you will find that, beyond the six-pack flight instrument
placement, there just hasn't been a lot of standardization on
aircraft panels. My Aztec has the master and the four mag switches in
close proximity from left to right on the left side of the switch
panel. If for any reason I feel a crazy need to turn any of these
switches off during flight you can bet your sweet ass I will be
looking very hard to make sure I have the correct one in my hand.
Just like when retracting flaps the call is "confirm flaps" at which
point my co-pilot looks down and says "flaps confirmed". Then and
only then do I raise the flaps.
I think that Bill Denton is to be applauded for thinking about work
flow ergonomics of his panel. It will make his airplane easier and
more logical to fly. Just because Beech, Piper, and Cessna used the
shotgun approach to panel layout 50 years ago doesn't mean there is
some virtue in retaining those bad old layouts.
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian HYPHEN av AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Turn on ALT before engine start? (Yes Airmanship) |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: OldBob Siegfried <oldbob@beechowners.com>
Good Afternoon All,
Just a few random thoughts on this subject.
1.) Standardization makes it much easier for a check
pilot to conduct a proficiency check.
2.) Standardization allows us to easily develop habit
patterns.
3.) Standardization is the mortal enemy of innovation.
4.) Standardization tends to make the operator feel
he/she is safe as long as he/she is following the
standardized procedures.
So the question becomes: Is standardization good or
bad?
It is my contention that such a question is best
answered by the following statement.
"It All Depends!"
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
--- Brian Lloyd <brian-av@lloyd.com> wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd
> <brian-av@lloyd.com>
>
> On Aug 30, 2006, at 8:57 AM, FLYaDIVE@aol.com wrote:
>
> > I am considering overriding the "standard"
> placement and using a
> > workflow-based placement.
> >
> > In this instance, you would have the battery
> master on the left,
> > with the mag/starter switch to the right
> > ===================================
> > This would have been a good idea if it was done
> about 50 years
> > ago. The problem is all of your training and
> 99.93% of everyone
> > else's was done to the old standard. You have
> been conditioned
> > over the years and hopefully just like a concert
> violinist trained
> > your muscles to react. I'm not saying you can't
> be retrained but
> > the rules of 'Precedence' overrides 'Rote'.
> > I mention everyone else because there may be times
> when you may
> > want to or need to have someone else fly your
> plane.
> > Also, there is a little bit of a physical reason
> why things were
> > original done with the Mags to the outside. It
> was because you can
> > accidentally shutoff the Master without any
> serious consequences.
> > But, if you shut off the engine you now have to
> pray it will restart.
>
> I think you will find that, beyond the six-pack
> flight instrument
> placement, there just hasn't been a lot of
> standardization on
> aircraft panels. My Aztec has the master and the
> four mag switches in
> close proximity from left to right on the left side
> of the switch
> panel. If for any reason I feel a crazy need to turn
> any of these
> switches off during flight you can bet your sweet
> ass I will be
> looking very hard to make sure I have the correct
> one in my hand.
> Just like when retracting flaps the call is "confirm
> flaps" at which
> point my co-pilot looks down and says "flaps
> confirmed". Then and
> only then do I raise the flaps.
>
> I think that Bill Denton is to be applauded for
> thinking about work
> flow ergonomics of his panel. It will make his
> airplane easier and
> more logical to fly. Just because Beech, Piper, and
> Cessna used the
> shotgun approach to panel layout 50 years ago
> doesn't mean there is
> some virtue in retaining those bad old layouts.
>
> Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline
> Way
> brian HYPHEN av AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630
> +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788
> (fax)
>
> I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny
> of petty things . . .
> Antoine de Saint-Exupry
>
>
>
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>
> Web Forums!
>
>
> Admin.
>
>
>
>
>
Message 31
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| Subject: | Is EFIS vulnerable at engine start? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" <terry@tcwatson.com>
Let's see: Bluemountain designed their EFIS for experimental aircraft. The
biggest single segment of experimental aircraft are RV's. There must be some
but I have never heard of 28 volt RV. Every one I have ever seen was a 14
volt design. Most other experimental aircraft that I am aware of are also 14
volt designs.
Either Greg made a serious mistake in accessing the needs of his potential
market, or I have a serious case of tunnel vision. Nothing in his sales
literature says anything about it not working with a 14 volt system.
But maybe I'm just in a crappy mood about BMA at the moment. I tried to
install the latest update to the software in my BMA EFIS/one last night and
it locked up on me -- again. The last time this happened I had to ship it
back to Tennessee, which cost $85 just for shipping. (But they didn't charge
for the repair and updating some of the internal hardware and software.) I
am now waiting for their support to answer my email or return my phone call.
Terry
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-av@lloyd.com>
<snip>
And as for Blue Mountain telling you to turn off your EFIS during
start, that is only a problem with 14V electrical systems where the
starter can draw the bus down to a voltage below which the BM-EFIS'
power supply will work. That is why Greg at BM likes 28V electrical
systems. His equipment does not reboot during start with a 28V
electrical system. It makes sense to me too.
Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline Way
brian HYPHEN av AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630
+1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788 (fax)
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Turn on ALT before engine start? (Yes Airmanship) |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
Yes, sometimes standardization can kill us.
I don't have any information on that commuter crash in KY a couple of days
ago, other than what I saw on the news. But I'll bet you a breakfast that
the guy realized that he was on too short a runway just as he saw the end
coming up. He was probably still a little below V1 and his training kicked
in causing him to abort and go off the end of the runway (I'm sure his
accelerate/stop distance was more than the runway length). If he had kept
going on the takeoff he probably would have been able to rotate and get off
the ground in the 3,500 feet he had. Bad day for all.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of OldBob
Siegfried
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 1:54 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Turn on ALT before engine start? (Yes
Airmanship)
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: OldBob Siegfried
<oldbob@beechowners.com>
Good Afternoon All,
Just a few random thoughts on this subject.
1.) Standardization makes it much easier for a check
pilot to conduct a proficiency check.
2.) Standardization allows us to easily develop habit
patterns.
3.) Standardization is the mortal enemy of innovation.
4.) Standardization tends to make the operator feel
he/she is safe as long as he/she is following the
standardized procedures.
So the question becomes: Is standardization good or
bad?
It is my contention that such a question is best
answered by the following statement.
"It All Depends!"
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
--- Brian Lloyd <brian-av@lloyd.com> wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd
> <brian-av@lloyd.com>
>
> On Aug 30, 2006, at 8:57 AM, FLYaDIVE@aol.com wrote:
>
> > I am considering overriding the "standard"
> placement and using a
> > workflow-based placement.
> >
> > In this instance, you would have the battery
> master on the left,
> > with the mag/starter switch to the right
> > ===================================
> > This would have been a good idea if it was done
> about 50 years
> > ago. The problem is all of your training and
> 99.93% of everyone
> > else's was done to the old standard. You have
> been conditioned
> > over the years and hopefully just like a concert
> violinist trained
> > your muscles to react. I'm not saying you can't
> be retrained but
> > the rules of 'Precedence' overrides 'Rote'.
> > I mention everyone else because there may be times
> when you may
> > want to or need to have someone else fly your
> plane.
> > Also, there is a little bit of a physical reason
> why things were
> > original done with the Mags to the outside. It
> was because you can
> > accidentally shutoff the Master without any
> serious consequences.
> > But, if you shut off the engine you now have to
> pray it will restart.
>
> I think you will find that, beyond the six-pack
> flight instrument
> placement, there just hasn't been a lot of
> standardization on
> aircraft panels. My Aztec has the master and the
> four mag switches in
> close proximity from left to right on the left side
> of the switch
> panel. If for any reason I feel a crazy need to turn
> any of these
> switches off during flight you can bet your sweet
> ass I will be
> looking very hard to make sure I have the correct
> one in my hand.
> Just like when retracting flaps the call is "confirm
> flaps" at which
> point my co-pilot looks down and says "flaps
> confirmed". Then and
> only then do I raise the flaps.
>
> I think that Bill Denton is to be applauded for
> thinking about work
> flow ergonomics of his panel. It will make his
> airplane easier and
> more logical to fly. Just because Beech, Piper, and
> Cessna used the
> shotgun approach to panel layout 50 years ago
> doesn't mean there is
> some virtue in retaining those bad old layouts.
>
> Brian Lloyd 361 Catterline
> Way
> brian HYPHEN av AT lloyd DOT com Folsom, CA 95630
> +1.916.367.2131 (voice) +1.270.912.0788
> (fax)
>
> I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny
> of petty things . . .
> Antoine de Saint-Exupry
>
>
>
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>
> Web Forums!
>
>
> Admin.
>
>
>
>
>
Message 33
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|
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 24 Msgs - 08/29/06 |
Hi Lee,
I've been thinking along the same lines, but as far as the ruggedized
Hard Drive, there are solid state hard drives out there for use above
10,000 ft. try this URL:
http://www.bitmicro.com/products_edisk_6U_vme_scsiw.php
There are others, you might want to Google SS hd's to see what's out
there.
Harold..RV9A fuselage
----- Original Message -----
From: Lee Logan
To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 11:46 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 24 Msgs -
08/29/06
Guys: I am experimenting with a home grown moving map display system
based on a 12v mini-PC and 12v LCD display. I plan to use one of the
commercially available navigation software packages and an input from my
GPS to drive it.
Question: Any experience with operating systems in this environment?
I am aware of the altitude issues with hard drives but have not been
privy to any operating system discussions. One popular software package
comes ported on either Windows CE or Windows XPHome. I'm told that XP
Home is more robust and less crash prone but that it routinely swaps
files with its memory which means (I had never heard this one before)
that it will "wear out" a flash card used as a solid state memory in a
certain number of swap operations. For that reason, I was advised to go
with a ruggedized HD and XP Home, not with a flash card and CE as I was
originally planning.
Any experience and/or comments on this challenge?
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Turn on ALT before engine start? (Yes Airmanship) |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com
In a message dated 8/30/06 1:19:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
brian-av@lloyd.com writes:
> You make a good point about understanding the systems. You understand
> why there is a start-up order for the hydraulic systems in the B767.
> Systems understanding is very important.
=========================
Very Good Point, Brian.
The o'l quote goes: "You can teach a monkey to fly but, you can't teach a
monkey to make decisions and learn systems."
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
"Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third
time."
Yamashiada
Message 35
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|
| Subject: | Re: Is EFIS vulnerable at engine start? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com
In a message dated 8/30/06 2:22:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
terry@tcwatson.com writes:
> But maybe I'm just in a crappy mood about BMA at the moment. I tried to
> install the latest update to the software in my BMA EFIS/one last night and
> it locked up on me -- again. The last time this happened I had to ship it
> back to Tennessee, which cost $85 just for shipping. (But they didn't
charge
> for the repair and updating some of the internal hardware and software.) I
> am now waiting for their support to answer my email or return my phone
call.
>
> Terry
=====================
Terry:
I can't blame you ... My NEW unit FAILED the first time I installed it. I
knew what was wrong (bad accelerometer) but after calling them the tech dept.
wanted me to upgrade the software. $35 for a connection cable (50 ft long - no
short ones available) and two hours of trying to down load and configure ...
I called them back .. This time I was lucky and talked to the BOSS. In
seconds he confirmed that it was the accelerometer and told me to ship it back.
They did the software upgrade and the unit is in and working. All at no charge.
But, WHY did it fail ... A brand new unit? I can't blame BMA for an
accelerometer problem, they did not make it. But, now I am always wondering if
it is
going to fail, especially when I would need it the most.
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
"Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third
time."
Yamashiada
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: Turn on ALT before engine start? (Yes Airmanship) |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com
In a message dated 8/30/06 2:25:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Bruce@glasair.org writes:
> He was probably still a little below V1
But did he reach or pass Vrto?
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
"Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third
time."
Yamashiada
Message 37
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|
| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 24 Msgs - 08/29/06 |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David M." <ainut@hiwaay.net>
Lee, I'd rather trust my life to Linux or QNX, whether embedded or
standard, than any Microsoft product. I've been playing with computers
and making a living at it since 1977, if that helps my bona fides :).
There is a learning curve to the UNIX clones, but there will also be for
a Windows embedded type system.
I'm also working on a homegrown unit (taking me lots of time) and have
yet to decide which soluiton to use. It will partly be driven by which
computer hardware I end up with, which is wholly driven by the graphics
power available on the embedded unit. However, for the trials and
software validation, I'll be using an ordinary laptop.
David M.
Lee Logan wrote:
> Guys: I am experimenting with a home grown moving map display system
> based on a 12v mini-PC and 12v LCD display. I plan to use one of the
> commercially available navigation software packages and an input from
> my GPS to drive it.
>
> Question: Any experience with operating systems in this environment?
> I am aware of the altitude issues with hard drives but have not been
> privy to any operating system discussions. One popular software
> package comes ported on either Windows CE or Windows XPHome. I'm told
> that XP Home is more robust and less crash prone but that it routinely
> swaps files with its memory which means (I had never heard this one
> before) that it will "wear out" a flash card used as a solid state
> memory in a certain number of swap operations. For that reason, I was
> advised to go with a ruggedized HD and XP Home, not with a flash card
> and CE as I was originally planning.
>
> Any experience and/or comments on this challenge?
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: Is EFIS vulnerable at engine start? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com
In a message dated 8/30/06 12:39:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
nuckollsr@cox.net writes:
> DO-160 design philosophies have been with us for
> decades. It's unfortunate that some otherwise
> capable individuals do not take advantage of
> recipes for success that are free for the taking.
>
> Bob . . .
>
=======================
Bob:
What individuals? I did not design the EFIS, guess you are referring to BMA.
I wish I would have been consulted on functions and layout, but what do I
know? I only have install it and use it!
I'm not impressed with the GPS screens or the mounting method, or how they
didn't hook up the magnetometer. And I'm still trying to get the bugs out with
the Pitot - Static System and its readings (I have a DUAL system - EFIS and
Steam gages).
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
"Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third
time."
Yamashiada
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 24 Msgs - 08/29/06 |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mitchell Faatz <mitch@skybound.com>
If I was working on a primary display ("trust my life") I'd consider
going the painful and expensive QNX route or something similar. For
secondary displays like moving maps, NT embedded is more than
sufficient. I helped develop moving map software at a company that made
avionics based on NT embedded, and believe me reliability of the OS was
never a problem. Remember, you're talking about a subset of the NT
modules (using only what you need), on a *closed* system (no end users
downloading software and viruses), and only being turned on for a couple
hours at a time and then turned off. You've got hardware and software
watchdogs, the ability to write protect whole volumes, and the control
to turn off paging. You may not want to discount it in your normal
Windows bashing, but I know it's easy to do.
Mitch Faatz RV-6A Finishing Kit Auburn, CA
David M. wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David M." <ainut@hiwaay.net>
>
> Lee, I'd rather trust my life to Linux or QNX, whether embedded or
> standard, than any Microsoft product. I've been playing with
> computers and making a living at it since 1977, if that helps my bona
> fides :). There is a learning curve to the UNIX clones, but there
> will also be for a Windows embedded type system.
>
> I'm also working on a homegrown unit (taking me lots of time) and have
> yet to decide which soluiton to use. It will partly be driven by
> which computer hardware I end up with, which is wholly driven by the
> graphics power available on the embedded unit. However, for the
> trials and software validation, I'll be using an ordinary laptop.
>
> David M.
>
>
> Lee Logan wrote:
>
>> Guys: I am experimenting with a home grown moving map display system
>> based on a 12v mini-PC and 12v LCD display. I plan to use one of the
>> commercially available navigation software packages and an input from
>> my GPS to drive it.
>>
>> Question: Any experience with operating systems in this environment?
>> I am aware of the altitude issues with hard drives but have not been
>> privy to any operating system discussions. One popular software
>> package comes ported on either Windows CE or Windows XPHome. I'm
>> told that XP Home is more robust and less crash prone but that it
>> routinely swaps files with its memory which means (I had never heard
>> this one before) that it will "wear out" a flash card used as a solid
>> state memory in a certain number of swap operations. For that
>> reason, I was advised to go with a ruggedized HD and XP Home, not
>> with a flash card and CE as I was originally planning.
>>
>> Any experience and/or comments on this challenge?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 40
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| Subject: | SlickSTART Bulletin SB1-06 |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <bakerocb@cox.net>
8/30/2006
Hello Fellow Builders with Unison SlickSTART Ignition Boosters, Unison has
just published SB1-06 which calls for removal of pin 2 from the unit and the
associated wiring within 20 flight hours or at the next scheduled
maintenance, whichever is sooner.
Pin 2 is the pin that gets connected to the non boosted magneto (usually the
right one) P lead stud. During cranking this connection automatically
grounds out the non boosted magneto so that it cannot prematurely fire and
cause kickback.
Once this modification has been made to the SlickSTART unit one must ensure
that the aircraft magneto / ignition switching system is such that the non
boosted magneto is grounded out during cranking by the switching system.##
Unison is directing this change because the pin 2 connection to the non
boosted magneto "potentially compromises the redundancy of the ignition
system".
Shoot me an email if you have questions.
OC -- The best investment we will ever make is in gathering knowledge.
## PS: My installation has separate switches for each magneto. I always
cranked with the right magneto switch turned OFF (grounded out) just to
doubly ensure that the right magneto could not fire prematurely. All of my
left (boosted) magneto spark plug leads go to the upper plugs in each
cylinder to ensure getting better odds of sparking than from a potentially
oil fouled lower plug.
Message 41
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Bill,
I purchased the Lite Version for $39.99 after trying out the demo version for 1
day. With AutoCad you have to either create your own devise block library or
purchase a third party package.
The Professional version is quite a bit more expensive. The "Simulator " version
would be great for testing out a circuit design.
By the way, I have no association with this company other than being a satisfied
customer.
Garland Edwards
eddieedwards@mindspring.com
EarthLink Revolves Around You.
Message 42
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| Subject: | Re: Is EFIS vulnerable at engine start? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 04:33 PM 8/30/2006 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com
>
>In a message dated 8/30/06 12:39:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>nuckollsr@cox.net writes:
>
> > DO-160 design philosophies have been with us for
> > decades. It's unfortunate that some otherwise
> > capable individuals do not take advantage of
> > recipes for success that are free for the taking.
> >
> > Bob . . .
> >
>=======================
>Bob:
>
>What individuals? I did not design the EFIS, guess you are referring to BMA.
> I wish I would have been consulted on functions and layout, but what do I
>know? I only have install it and use it!
All individuals. Many who do not have a background in
TC aircraft are not cognizant of the dragons already slain
in decades of effort by those who have gone before us.
Virtually every individual I've met who had an idea and
starry-eyed dream (Including Greg) was offered no-charge,
design assistance with packaging, power conditioning and I/O
configurations that are proven ingredients in the recipe
for success. Only a tiny fraction have accepted the offer.
>I'm not impressed with the GPS screens or the mounting method, or how they
>didn't hook up the magnetometer. And I'm still trying to get the bugs out
>with
>the Pitot - Static System and its readings (I have a DUAL system - EFIS and
>Steam gages).
And all those are performance and systems integration issues.
Let us all hope that once those snakes are sacked and tied
that environmental worms don't spill out. Those issues
are generally beyond the ability of the installer
to deal with and are the responsibility of the manufacturer.
Bob . . .
Message 43
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rodney Dunham" <rdunhamtn@hotmail.com>
George,
You've been doing so good! What happened? Have you checked you Lithium level
lately???
Your buddy, Rod.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 44
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| Subject: | Re: Is EFIS vulnerable at engine start? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: gert <gert.v@sbcglobal.net>
begs the question, what about the current crop of electronic engine
instruments, ya all keep them off till u engine is running.
What good are they if u can't have them on during engine start ;-)
so u wait till the engine is running, switch u electronic instruments on
to discover u have no oil pressure, oops....somehow i don't think i want
Blue Mountain to check my oil pressure if i have to have their system
off during engine start.
A DeMarzo wrote:
> And I think that I would spring for a $10 switch as just a tiny bit
> more protection on my $3000 instrument.
>
> Spikes Happen
>
> Al
> General Aviation - Pricing People Out Daily
>
>
>
> On 08/30/2006 7:56:01 AM, Bill Denton (bdenton@bdenton.com
> <mailto:bdenton@bdenton.com>) wrote:
> > Dynon disagrees...
> >
> > The following exchange came from
> > Dynon's message board:
> >
> > Question: "I've just installed my D10A and as
> > advised in the instructions wired it through a 2 amp fuse. Since I
> > didn't order the internal battery, I did not connect the "stay
> alive" wire and also did not install a separate power switch. The unit
> comes on when I turn on the master switch without my pressing the unit's
> > power button. I assume this in normal, but can I have problems with
> power
> > spikes during engine start? Should I install a separate power switch in
> > the Dynon circuit? If not, should I turn off the EFIS before engine
> > start?"
> >
> >
> > Answer, from Dynon Support:
> >
> > "The EFIS is indeed
> > designed to come alive when power is applied.
> >
> > Many customers install the EFIS in exactly the same electrical
> > configuration you have set up. The unit will not be damaged by having it
> > on during engine start, but it may reboot if the voltage momentarily
> drops
> > below 10V.
> >
> > Also, since you did not purchase the internal battery, you may want to
> > connect the keep alive wire to power the clock when your master
> switch is
> > off. Otherwise it will reset after every power
> *
>
>
> *
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Message 45
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
Rod,
Please don't reduce yourself to this level. The List is for
the advancement of our science and art . . . not for the
fertilization of feuds and p@#$ing contests. If someone
attacks you specifically, you're certainly entitled to defend
yourself in honorable ways. But I don't need the defense of
others and posts like this add nothing to the stature of the List.
Thanks!
Bob . . .
At 08:10 PM 8/30/2006 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rodney Dunham"
><rdunhamtn@hotmail.com>
>
>George,
>
>You've been doing so good! What happened? Have you checked you Lithium
>level lately???
>
>Your buddy, Rod.
>DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 46
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| Subject: | Re: Is EFIS vulnerable at engine start? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 08:10 PM 8/30/2006 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: gert <gert.v@sbcglobal.net>
>
>begs the question, what about the current crop of electronic engine
>instruments, ya all keep them off till u engine is running.
>What good are they if u can't have them on during engine start ;-)
>so u wait till the engine is running, switch u electronic instruments on
>to discover u have no oil pressure, oops....somehow i don't think i want
>Blue Mountain to check my oil pressure if i have to have their system off
>during engine start.
The risks are exceedingly low. I suppose there are
folks who tell tales of having lost an engine when a pump
shaft sheared on startup . . . but think about it. Just
how highly stressed are the oil pump parts? If one is
really worried about a bullet proof oil pressure indication
at startup, perhaps a pressure switch and "OIL P WARN" light
in the annunciator panel is called for.
I wouldn't put engine instrumentation on the e-bus. 99.999% of
the time, engine instruments show the same things they said
the last time you looked at them. Loss of some engine functionality
in addition to loss of alternator on same tank of fuel is exceedingly
remote. Or, one could install an SD-8 for unlimited endurance on
an 8 Amp e-bus and flip the instrumentation on from time to time.
Bob . . .
Message 47
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| Subject: | Re: SlickSTART Bulletin SB1-06 |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 06:21 PM 8/30/2006 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <bakerocb@cox.net>
>
>8/30/2006
>
>Hello Fellow Builders with Unison SlickSTART Ignition Boosters, Unison has
>just published SB1-06 which calls for removal of pin 2 from the unit and
>the associated wiring within 20 flight hours or at the next scheduled
>maintenance, whichever is sooner.
>
>Pin 2 is the pin that gets connected to the non boosted magneto (usually
>the right one) P lead stud. During cranking this connection automatically
>grounds out the non boosted magneto so that it cannot prematurely fire and
>cause kickback.
>
>Once this modification has been made to the SlickSTART unit one must
>ensure that the aircraft magneto / ignition switching system is such that
>the non boosted magneto is grounded out during cranking by the switching
>system.##
>
>Unison is directing this change because the pin 2 connection to the non
>boosted magneto "potentially compromises the redundancy of the ignition
>system".
>
>Shoot me an email if you have questions.
>
>OC -- The best investment we will ever make is in gathering knowledge.
Good data sir! Do you have a copy of the SB? Is it available on the
net? I'd like to have a copy for the archives.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
Message 48
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| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 24 Msgs - 08/29/06 |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David M." <ainut@hiwaay.net>
QNX has a free version. Of course, Linux is free for the download,
too. Just to keep the record straight.
David M.
Mitchell Faatz wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mitchell Faatz
> <mitch@skybound.com>
>
> If I was working on a primary display ("trust my life") I'd consider
> going the painful and expensive QNX route or something similar. For
> secondary displays like moving maps, NT embedded is more than
> sufficient. I helped develop moving map software at a company that
> made avionics based on NT embedded, and believe me reliability of the
> OS was never a problem. Remember, you're talking about a subset of
> the NT modules (using only what you need), on a *closed* system (no
> end users downloading software and viruses), and only being turned on
> for a couple hours at a time and then turned off. You've got hardware
> and software watchdogs, the ability to write protect whole volumes,
> and the control to turn off paging. You may not want to discount it
> in your normal Windows bashing, but I know it's easy to do.
>
> Mitch Faatz RV-6A Finishing Kit Auburn, CA
>
>
> David M. wrote:
>
>> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David M." <ainut@hiwaay.net>
>>
>> Lee, I'd rather trust my life to Linux or QNX, whether embedded or
>> standard, than any Microsoft product. I've been playing with
>> computers and making a living at it since 1977, if that helps my bona
>> fides :). There is a learning curve to the UNIX clones, but there
>> will also be for a Windows embedded type system.
>>
>> I'm also working on a homegrown unit (taking me lots of time) and
>> have yet to decide which soluiton to use. It will partly be driven
>> by which computer hardware I end up with, which is wholly driven by
>> the graphics power available on the embedded unit. However, for the
>> trials and software validation, I'll be using an ordinary laptop.
>>
>> David M.
>>
>>
>> Lee Logan wrote:
>>
>>> Guys: I am experimenting with a home grown moving map display system
>>> based on a 12v mini-PC and 12v LCD display. I plan to use one of
>>> the commercially available navigation<<<snip>>>
>>
Message 49
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| Subject: | Re: Turn on ALT before engine start? (Yes Airmanship) |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "europa flugzeug fabrik" <n3eu@comcast.net>
FLYaDIVE(at)aol.com wrote:
> I mention everyone else because there may be times when you may want to or need
to have someone else fly your plane.
I see no problem there. Anyone that stupid won't be flying my airplane!
Fred F.
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