Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:13 AM - Re: Re: Is EFIS vulnerable at engine start? (PSILeD@aol.com)
2. 04:49 AM - Re: downside of manual battery disconnects? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
3. 04:58 AM - Re: in-rush limiters (FLYaDIVE@aol.com)
4. 05:06 AM - Re: in-rush limiters (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 07:10 AM - Re: Re: Is EFIS vulnerable at engine start? (OldBob Siegfried)
6. 08:31 AM - Re: in-rush limiters (FLYaDIVE@aol.com)
7. 09:58 AM - Re: Static port on Dynon AoA probe (Ernest Christley)
8. 11:39 AM - Re: Turn on ALT before engine start? (Logic and experience) ()
9. 04:35 PM - Re: Re: Turn on ALT before engine start? (Logic and experience) (Doug Windhorn)
10. 11:32 PM - Official AeroElectric-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle)
11. 11:33 PM - Official AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle)
Message 1
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Is EFIS vulnerable at engine start? |
you could wire in a pushbutton, normally open, switch, to bypass normal
switch, and push it in to keep power on the unit while you operate the "normal
on" to "alternate on" switch. If added switch failed then you would be back as
before push button switch was added. I would add PB switch adjacent to
existing switch.
Paul
Message 2
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: downside of manual battery disconnects? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 02:03 PM 8/31/2006 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: D Wysong <hdwysong@gmail.com>
>
>Does anyone have any experience with the manual battery disconnects that
>the hot rod folks use?
Piper Tri-Pacers and Pacers of the 1950's had manual
battery master -AND- starter switches in them. While
they limited the options for location (had to have fat-wire
control devices in reach of pilot - and generally NOT on the
panel) they functioned as intended.
>Has anyone heard any issues with corrosion or failures or horror stories
>floating around about these things?
Everything corrodes. Most switches in service die of
environmental issues . . . not from service stresses.
>Are certain brands better than others?
The use of these devices is so small a part of the
constellation of choices as to make any significant
field comparisons of devices difficult if not impossible
>Are any (for whatever reason) more suitable for aircraft use than others?
Airplanes are not terribly unique . . . especially if one
crafts a failure tolerant design. Suppose your battery
switch DOES crap . . . so what? If you're wired like a
Tripacer, then your panel is black. If you're wired like
Z-11, it's no big deal. Take a peak at:
http://harborfreight.com and search for item 92688-1VGA
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
Message 3
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: in-rush limiters |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com
>Oh! When choosing the wire size, do NOT go by the Mil-Spec wire size used in
>wiring the plane. I would DOUBLE that wire size.
Don't understand why. The current ratings for choosing wire
size from charts like those found in AC43-13 or chapter
8 of the 'Connection are already de-rated for 10C temperature
rise. The 6A lamp cited in the original post would not
seriously warm an inductor wound with 22AWG (5A rated) wire.
Bob . . .
==================================
Hello Bob:
You have me smiling ...
Now how did I know you were going to question this part :-)
Let me start off by asking a LOADED QUESTION:
What determines the current handling capabilities of a wire?
I should wait at this point for a responce, but concidering that the question
is also put the site's reading public ... I will guess at their answer and
maybe yours.
That being: The diameter, cross-sectional area of the wire.
Does that sound like the most given answer? And it is a logical answer. But
not the whole story. I did say it was a LOADED QUESTION.
So to unload the answer:
The Determining factor is the INSULATION, the thickness and type.
Here is why. You have to ask the questions: What fails? And How?
There are two failures. As the wire heats up, it heats up so much that it
MELTS the insulation. FAILURE ... This exposes the wire to do any combination
of events: Fire, short to ground - case - airframe or melt into and short to
another wire.
The other failure is crystalization of the wire from the heat. Usually
repeated heat and that leads to the wire failing in an OPEN. This is not the norm.
The norm is the insulation FAILING.
Now, most builders do use Mil-Spec wire and the Mil-Spec wire does have a
higher tempature rating and dialectric rating. So what determines the current
handling capabilities of a wire? INSULATION - Told ya it was Loaded!
Lets switch to the coil construction I mentioned. You said 30 Turns ... Only
30 Turns? Way Much More than 30 turns can fit on a form that has a 1/2" ID
and a 1" OD and 2" Long ... That gives you 1/4" of room to build up and about 1
1/4" length to fill. I haven't worked out the Henry's (inductance) of the
coil and quite honestly it does not matter. Too much engineering and not enough
practicality. I know the size will work. How do I know? A life of
experimentation! I have been getting my ass shocked since I was 11 years old :-)
As the commercial says: Try it you'll like it. As we say here in NJ: Don't
worry about it!
O! For the size of the wire -- I would suggest 18 or 16 AWG enameled
(Transformer) wire. It should handle the current and both circuit heat and engine
heat. And even with this large size wire you should be able to get way more
than 30 turns.
Try it you'll like it. We are the EAA, Experiment!
Happy Toe Tingles.
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
"Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third
time."
Yamashiada
Message 4
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: in-rush limiters |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 07:50 PM 8/31/2006 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 8/31/2006 8:53:53 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
>nuckollsr@cox.net writes:
> Don't understand why. The current ratings for choosing wire
> size from charts like those found in AC43-13 or chapter
> 8 of the 'Connection are already de-rated for 10C temperature
> rise. The 6A lamp cited in the original post would not
> seriously warm an inductor wound with 22AWG (5A rated) wire.
>
> Bob . . .
>Bob,
>
>When wire is wound in a transformer or choke, the density of the power
>loss is much greater than even in a bundle of wires. A typical design
>value is 500 to 1000 circular mils per amp. Solid number 22 wire is 25.3
>mils in diameter and has about 643 circular mils. Therefore it is only
>rated for about 1 amp when wound in a multi layered coil. Operating a
>number 22 enamel wire at 5 amps continuously when it is tightly surrounded
>by more number 22 enamel wire also carrying 5 amps would cause it to overheat.
Define "overheat". I'm aware of the transformer design
philosophies but were talking about a single layer solenoid
wound inductor. The amount of current a 22AWG wire can carry
without damaging its insulation is huge compared to the de-rating
we impose for bundling and/or voltage drops.
The 22AWG wire you see at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Wire/20A_22AWG.jpg
had been carrying 20A for several minutes at the time this
picture was taken. The temperature as monitored by the
thermocouple in the photo was still well below operating
limits for the wire.
One of the most difficult concepts to illuminate with
respect to wires is that the recommended current RATINGS for
wires are chosen for a suite of inter-related effects not
the least of which is insulation type and ability of the
wire to reject heat - as installed. The values cited in the
wire bundle charts are not even close to being LIMITS beyond
which one may expect smoke, fire and otherwise unhappy times
in the cockpit.
For the case cited (single layer inductor) the charted
rating for 22AWG at 5A would be quite conservative even
for the 6+ amp landing light cited . . . assuming that
the inductive approach to inrush limiting was useful.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
Message 5
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Is EFIS vulnerable at engine start? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: OldBob Siegfried <oldbob@beechowners.com>
Good Morning All,
Since I am an electrical neophyte, I should stay out
of this discussion, but may I mention that several
airliners I flew in a previous life had two basic
types of switches used for system control.
Most were the familiar snap type which "broke" the
first circuit before "making" the next. Others were
made such that the second circuit was connected before
the first was disconnected. Naturally, the old style
were called "break before make" and the others called
were "make before break".
How they worked mechanically is way beyond me, but it
does seem that a "make before break" style switch
might be s just what you want.
Hopefully, they are available at a cost and weight
that would work!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Stearman N3977A
Downers Grove, IL
LL22
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
--- PSILeD@aol.com wrote:
> you could wire in a pushbutton, normally open,
> switch, to bypass normal
> switch, and push it in to keep power on the unit
> while you operate the "normal
> on" to "alternate on" switch. If added switch failed
> then you would be back as
> before push button switch was added. I would add PB
> switch adjacent to
> existing switch.
>
> Paul
>
Message 6
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: in-rush limiters |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com
In a message dated 9/1/06 8:12:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nuckollsr@cox.net
writes:
> Define "overheat". I'm aware of the transformer design
> philosophies but were talking about a single layer solenoid
> wound inductor.
==============================
Who said!
I said a form of 1/2" ID, 1" OD and 2" Long. That is no single layer ... Not
unless you are using 1/4" thick wire.
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
"Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third
time."
Yamashiada
Message 7
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Static port on Dynon AoA probe |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ernest Christley <echristley@nc.rr.com>
rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us wrote:
>Hello Ernest
>
>"The Dynon probe does nothing more than implement what this gentleman
>describes. As I understand it, the exact dimensions aren't critical, as
>it has to be calibrated for each airplane anyway. Look on the Dynon site.
> They give the calibration procedures, and it is exactly what Mark and
>David describe. As for exact dimensions:
>3/4" aluminum tube that tapers down to 3/8" for the pitot, which is pushed
>up to the top.
>The bottom of the head has a triangular slice cut off at a 30 degree angle
>from the bottom. The AoA sense hole is 5/8" from the tip. A little less
>than 8" long."
>
>I am not certain that the Zodiac home made probe is doing the exact same
>thing as the Dynon.
>http://www.ch601.org/resources/aoa/aoa.htm
>
>What size is the size of the port hole of the Dynon AOA hole?
>What angle is the port hole drilled in relation to the sliced face?
>Is the sliced face flat or has a slight radius?
>
>Thx.
>Sincerely
>Ron Parigoris
>
>
>
It's about a 1/16th hole drilled tangentially to a flat face. The hole
size and location aren't critical. The critical part is that you need
two 'pitot' ports pointing forward at different angles. As you change
angle of attack, the relative pressures on these two ports will change.
It's a relative pressure between just those two ports, so static
pressure or absolute dynamic pressure (from airspeed) are unimportant
and ignored. As you slow down to where the wing can't maintain
altitude, the wind is not coming straight at you, even if the nose is
still on the horizon. Riding the edge of stall with a power out, you
could be headed down at a 45degree angle even though the plane is in a
level attitude. As you're sinking, it is coming from below. The lower
pitot will 'feel' more of the rising air than the forward pointing one.
How much more it 'feels' will rely completely on AoA. Now all that's
necessary is a sensitive differential gauge to measure both pressures,
the calibration procedure will set a couple of points that correspond to
"doin' fine" and "lift all gone". Just throw in a semi-arbitrary red,
yellow and green ranges, and you're good to go.
It really is a simple yet profound concept.
--
,|"|"|, Ernest Christley |
----===<{{(oQo)}}>===---- Dyke Delta Builder |
o| d |o http://ernest.isa-geek.org |
Message 8
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Turn on ALT before engine start? (Logic and experience) |
Bob:
I probably don't have scientific evidence of why I have
the opinions I do or why it differs from yours. I do have
logic and personal experience to share.
We do agree that checklist are good, and from an
electrical standpoint most alternators (not all) don't care
if you turn them ON before or after start. OK?
HOWEVER given the choice I say turn the ALT ON with
the BAT before start and than back OFF together with the
BAT after engine shut down. I'll explain.
**Let me tell you all a little story first**
One of my students many years ago was going on one of
her solo cross country flights. Well she made one
mistake and turned the battery on and accidentally left
the ALT off (Cessna split switch). She took off enroute
and did not note the discharge, mistake two. Never the
less I can see it happening to anyone. She realized her
error and proceed to turn the ALT on. Because the
battery was now discharged it demanded a large current,
it popped the CB with the combined load of lights, radios
and battery charging. She did not think to "load shed"
first, before resetting the CB.
Well from then on she was perfect. She noted the CB
pop, let cool, reset once and left it out when it popped
the 2nd time. She did a 180 and than did an electrical
load shed to save the remaining battery. Nearing the
airport she powered the Comm up and landed without
further incidence. Yes she should have turned the ALT
on first; Yes she should have checked for charge right
after start; Yes she probably would have been successful
resetting the CB if she would have turned the strobes and
avionics off first, before turning the ALT on; however I
never taught her this. To be sure from than on I went
over this in detail with all students using Machado's
water flow analogy. (End of STORY)
Here is how I arrived at my opinions:
ONE - ANYTHING that can assure you don't make a
mistake, like in the above story, is good. KEEP IT
SIMPLE. Turning the ALT on first before start with the
BAT is one of those KISS methods and step reducing
things. IT MAKES SENSE to me and is LOGICAL to
me, less steps are better. It's obvious if the BAT is not
on, Right? Nothing happens. Turning the BAT/ALT on
together is goodness in my opinion, you're less likely to
forget the ALT. Tie the ALT and BAT together
procedurally. We can agree to disagree. My argument or
logical reason is LESS STEPS are BETTER from a
human factor stand point (not electrical).
The caveat is if the AFM calls for something different,
like an old twin with generators or the B737 I use to fly,
than do that. (The B757/767 brings the Gens online
automatically; yea!)
TWO - Most factory planes call for ALT/BAT turned on
together; why not follow a standard which will aid
transition and proficiency of other pilots across different
planes, aka, why be different? My over all
recommendations to anyone designing their panel or
procedures, keep it simple and follow the traditional
layouts and procedures as much as possible. Cessna puts
the master, BAT and ALT switch together in a split
toggle design for a reason, they are normally actuate
together. I think Cessna got it right. Again it's my
OPINION and apparently Cessna's opinion. Granted in
my above story even the split switch is not fail-safe, but
it helps.
Bob, you can INSERT your argument in HERE that
there should be a low volt idiot light. I agree, but that is
POOR Airmanship to rely on idiot lights to configure the
plane's electrical system properly.
If you want me to prove my opinion or explain my logic
better than I already have, I can't. I have no top secret
oscilloscope plots to prove my opinion. It really is not
an electrical thing, it's more human factors.
My opinion is based on 12,000 hrs flt time & counting,
CFI, ATP, airline and engineer for Boeing, which
involved evaluating check list and teaching flight crews.
As a former CFI-CFII-MEI, in over 20 different
make/models of GA planes, almost all did not REQUIRE
a separate ALT throwing step. You say so what? I say
follow the standard. However if the AFM/Checklist say
do it, than you are bound by FAR's to follow it. Can you
imagine forgetting the ALT because of a modified
procedures which got you into a pickle like my student
but violating airspace because you where NO RADIO.
Than the FAA asks, why? you say:
**Oh I throw the ALT switch after start, even though the
checklist says otherwise, because I think it's better,
but I forgot this time.**
hummmm
Can you say violation and licence revoked? I love pilots
who are too cool to BLINDLY follow checklist. Follow the
darn checklist. It's not trivial or just to evaluate pilots by,
it's the safety net of aviation, use it. Some day pilots flying
a C-150 may be in a G-V or B747 and good checklist
discipline is critical. Its just good Airmanship and I don't
need any data to prove standardization is goodness.
Experimental, do what ever you want, but suggest you try
to consider the traditional or standard procedures as a
starting point.
Exception to the RULE - Internally regulated Alternators
Again it does not matter from an electronics stand point
for most alternators when you turn them ON or OFF except
for internally regulated alternators. Since there's no I-VR
alternators on factory planes, it only affects experimental
aircraft that use them.
I always have recommended I-VR alternators be ON
before cranking the engine and OFF after engine shut
down. The logical reason is, I-VR alternators are based
on an automotive application. I again ask rhetorically,
"How many cars need the driver to activate the alternator
separately?" The answer is none. If using a I-VR
alternator, it's logical to operate it the same way as it
does in the automobile, for which it was designed.
The second reason for not cycling internally regulated
alternators while they're spinning is they can fail. From
my experience and those of many I have helped and
corresponded with, who had I-VR alternator problems,
they all had a common thread, they played switch
monkey with the ALT (IGN) switch. Anecdotal yes, but
it's what I got, take it or leave it.
Technically IC chips inside some I-VR's have delays and
soft start functions most external voltage regulators
don't have, including the B&C unit. By using an internal
V-regulator to switch high amps ON/OFF is needless and
counter to its design. Again, no scientific bench test or
scope traces to show. Take it or leave it. Fact is I-VR's are
microprocessor controlled in many cases and don't need
or benefit from pilot switch monkey intervention (my opinion).
Again my LOGIC, my EXPERIENCE, my OPINION and
research into I-VR designs is the basis of my comments.
I have no scientific proof that will make you happy Bob,
sorry. The best I got, take it or leave it.
Now Bob tell me why turning the ALT on and off as a
separate step, post-start is superior? (Forget electrons,
think like a pilot for a minute.)
Regards George M, CFII-MEI, ATP, B73/75/76/CE500, MSME
---------------------------------
Message 9
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Turn on ALT before engine start? (Logic and |
experience)
George,
Thank you for the lucid explanation of how you arrived at your opinions.
It does make sense and, to me anyway, the rationale is solid.
IMHO, the only thing I would have suggested you leave out of your post
was your challenge to Bob to argue a point - why? Is there anything,
really, to be gained? If he disagreed with your points, it is his
option to pick up the keyboard and whack away - with the challenge, it
becomes less his choice, as a point of "honor." This is much as a
slanderous comment many years ago might have resulted in a pistol duel
challenge. Hopefully, we have advanced beyond that mode for addressing
disagreements.
Keep up the good explanations for your opinions - it can help us all to
better understand.
Regards,
Doug Windhorn
----- Original Message -----
From: gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com
To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, 01 September, 2006 11:36
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Turn on ALT before engine start?
(Logic and experience)
Bob:
I probably don't have scientific evidence of why I have
the opinions I do or why it differs from yours. I do have
logic and personal experience to share.
We do agree that checklist are good, and from an
electrical standpoint most alternators (not all) don't care
if you turn them ON before or after start. OK?
HOWEVER given the choice I say turn the ALT ON with
the BAT before start and than back OFF together with the
BAT after engine shut down. I'll explain.
**Let me tell you all a little story first**
One of my students many years ago was going on one of
her solo cross country flights. Well she made one
mistake and turned the battery on and accidentally left
the ALT off (Cessna split switch). She took off enroute
and did not note the discharge, mistake two. Never the
less I can see it happening to anyone. She realized her
error and proceed to turn the ALT on. Because the
battery was now discharged it demanded a large current,
it popped the CB with the combined load of lights, radios
and battery charging. She did not think to "load shed"
first, before resetting the CB.
Well from then on she was perfect. She noted the CB
pop, let cool, reset once and left it out when it popped
the 2nd time. She did a 180 and than did an electrical
load shed to save the remaining battery. Nearing the
airport she powered the Comm up and landed without
further incidence. Yes she should have turned the ALT
on first; Yes she should have checked for charge right
after start; Yes she probably would have been successful
resetting the CB if she would have turned the strobes and
avionics off first, before turning the ALT on; however I
never taught her this. To be sure from than on I went
over this in detail with all students using Machado's
water flow analogy. (End of STORY)
Here is how I arrived at my opinions:
ONE - ANYTHING that can assure you don't make a
mistake, like in the above story, is good. KEEP IT
SIMPLE. Turning the ALT on first before start with the
BAT is one of those KISS methods and step reducing
things. IT MAKES SENSE to me and is LOGICAL to
me, less steps are better. It's obvious if the BAT is not
on, Right? Nothing happens. Turning the BAT/ALT on
together is goodness in my opinion, you're less likely to
forget the ALT. Tie the ALT and BAT together
procedurally. We can agree to disagree. My argument or
logical reason is LESS STEPS are BETTER from a
human factor stand point (not electrical).
The caveat is if the AFM calls for something different,
like an old twin with generators or the B737 I use to fly,
than do that. (The B757/767 brings the Gens online
automatically; yea!)
TWO - Most factory planes call for ALT/BAT turned on
together; why not follow a standard which will aid
transition and proficiency of other pilots across different
planes, aka, why be different? My over all
recommendations to anyone designing their panel or
procedures, keep it simple and follow the traditional
layouts and procedures as much as possible. Cessna puts
the master, BAT and ALT switch together in a split
toggle design for a reason, they are normally actuate
together. I think Cessna got it right. Again it's my
OPINION and apparently Cessna's opinion. Granted in
my above story even the split switch is not fail-safe, but
it helps.
Bob, you can INSERT your argument in HERE that
there should be a low volt idiot light. I agree, but that is
POOR Airmanship to rely on idiot lights to configure the
plane's electrical system properly.
If you want me to prove my opinion or explain my logic
better than I already have, I can't. I have no top secret
oscilloscope plots to prove my opinion. It really is not
an electrical thing, it's more human factors.
My opinion is based on 12,000 hrs flt time & counting,
CFI, ATP, airline and engineer for Boeing, which
involved evaluating check list and teaching flight crews.
As a former CFI-CFII-MEI, in over 20 different
make/models of GA planes, almost all did not REQUIRE
a separate ALT throwing step. You say so what? I say
follow the standard. However if the AFM/Checklist say
do it, than you are bound by FAR's to follow it. Can you
imagine forgetting the ALT because of a modified
procedures which got you into a pickle like my student
but violating airspace because you where NO RADIO.
Than the FAA asks, why? you say:
**Oh I throw the ALT switch after start, even though the
checklist says otherwise, because I think it's better,
but I forgot this time.**
hummmm
Can you say violation and licence revoked? I love pilots
who are too cool to BLINDLY follow checklist. Follow the
darn checklist. It's not trivial or just to evaluate pilots by,
it's the safety net of aviation, use it. Some day pilots flying
a C-150 may be in a G-V or B747 and good checklist
discipline is critical. Its just good Airmanship and I don't
need any data to prove standardization is goodness.
Experimental, do what ever you want, but suggest you try
to consider the traditional or standard procedures as a
starting point.
Exception to the RULE - Internally regulated Alternators
Again it does not matter from an electronics stand point
for most alternators when you turn them ON or OFF except
for internally regulated alternators. Since there's no I-VR
alternators on factory planes, it only affects experimental
aircraft that use them.
I always have recommended I-VR alternators be ON
before cranking the engine and OFF after engine shut
down. The logical reason is, I-VR alternators are based
on an automotive application. I again ask rhetorically,
"How many cars need the driver to activate the alternator
separately?" The answer is none. If using a I-VR
alternator, it's logical to operate it the same way as it
does in the automobile, for which it was designed.
The second reason for not cycling internally regulated
alternators while they're spinning is they can fail. From
my experience and those of many I have helped and
corresponded with, who had I-VR alternator problems,
they all had a common thread, they played switch
monkey with the ALT (IGN) switch. Anecdotal yes, but
it's what I got, take it or leave it.
Technically IC chips inside some I-VR's have delays and
soft start functions most external voltage regulators
don't have, including the B&C unit. By using an internal
V-regulator to switch high amps ON/OFF is needless and
counter to its design. Again, no scientific bench test or
scope traces to show. Take it or leave it. Fact is I-VR's are
microprocessor controlled in many cases and don't need
or benefit from pilot switch monkey intervention (my opinion).
Again my LOGIC, my EXPERIENCE, my OPINION and
research into I-VR designs is the basis of my comments.
I have no scientific proof that will make you happy Bob,
sorry. The best I got, take it or leave it.
Now Bob tell me why turning the ALT on and off as a
separate step, post-start is superior? (Forget electrons,
think like a pilot for a minute.)
Regards George M, CFII-MEI, ATP, B73/75/76/CE500, MSME
Message 10
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Official AeroElectric-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
Dear Listers,
Please read over the AeroElectric-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below.
The
complete AeroElectric-List FAQ including the Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/AeroElectric-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
[ Note: This FAQ was designed to be displayed with a fixed width font such as
Courier. Proportional fonts will cause display formatting errors. ]
This FAQ can also be viewed in HTML online at the following address:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm
************************************************************
******* LIST POLICIES AND FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS *******
************************************************************
PLEASE READ. This document contains AeroElectric-List policies and information
for new and old subscribers. Understanding the AeroElectric-List policies will
minimize problems for the Administrator, and will help keep the AeroElectric-List
running smoothly for all of us.
******************************************
*** Quick Start Guide to List Features ***
******************************************
There are many features available on the Matronics Email Lists and each
one is described in detailed below. However, using the List Navigator
you can quickly access the complete set of features available for this
List. The List Navigator can be found at the following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
****************************************
*** How to Subscribe and Unsubscribe ***
****************************************
Simply go to the Web Page shown below and enter your email address and
select the List(s) that you wish to subscribe or unsubscribed from. You
may also use the handy "Find" function to determine the exact syntax of
your email address as it is subscribed to the List. Please see the
complete instructions at the top of the Web Page for more information.
The Subscribe/Unsubscribe web page is:
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe
Note that you will receive TWO conformation emails regarding your subsciption
process. The first verifies that your subscription/unsubsciption request
was received, and the second confirms that the process has been completed.
You should receive the first email within a few minutes of your request.
The second conformation will arrive in less than 24 hours. You cannot post
until you receive the second conformation email message.
*****************************
*** How to Post a Message ***
*****************************
Send an email message to:
aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Your message will be redistributed to everyone currently subscribed
to the List.
*****************************************************
*** SPAM Fighter - You Must be Subscribed to Post ***
*****************************************************
When a new post is received by the system, the From: line of the message
is checked and compared against the current subscription list. If the
email address is found, the message is passed on to the List Processor.
If the email address isn't found in the current list of subscribers, it
is dumped. This serves to very effectively thwart 99% of the SPAM that
gets posted to the Lists.
Remember, however, that the syntax of your email address is very important
with regard to the configuration of your email application such as Outlook
or Eudora. For example, the following two email addresses may be
functionally equivalent, but only one would pass the Matronics Email SPAM
test depending on which was syntax was subscribed to the given List:
smith@machine.domain.com
smith@domain.com
Either email address syntax is alright, just be sure that you configure
your email application to match *exactly* the address you've subscibed to
the List.
**************************************
*** Enclosure Support on the Lists ***
**************************************
Limited posting of enclosures such as pictures, documents, and spreadsheets
is supported on the Lists. There are a number of restrictions, and these
are detailed below. Please abide by the rules put forth regarding the
content of enclosures.
These are some of the features and limits of enclosures on the Matronics
Lists:
1) Enclosures will only be posted to the Real Time version of the Lists.
2) Enclosures will NOT be included in the Daily Digest version of the Lists.
3) Enclosures WILL BE forwarded on to the BBS Forum Web site.
4) Enclosures will NOT be appended to the Archives.
5) Enclosures will NOT be available in the List Browse feature.
6) Only the following file types and extensions will be allowed:
bmp doc dwg dxf gif jpg pdf png txt xls
All other enclosures types will be rejected and email returned to
sender. The enclosure types listed above are relatively safe from
a virus standpoint and don't pose a particularly large security risk.
7) !! All incoming enclosures will be scanned for viruses prior to posting
to the List. This is done in real time and will not slow down
the process of posting the message !!
Here are some rules for posting enclosures. Failure to abide by these rules
could result in the removal of a subscriber's email address from the Lists.
1) Pay attention to what you are posting!! Make sure that the files
you are enclosing aren't HUGE (greater that 1MB). Remember that there
are still people checking they're email via dial up modem. If you post
30MB worth of pictures, you are placing an unnecessary burden on these
folks and the rest of us, for that matter.
2) SCALE YOUR PICTURES DOWN!!! I don't want to see huge 3000 x 2000
pictures getting posted that are 3 or 4MB each. This is just
unacceptable. Use a program such as Photoshop to scale the picture
down to something on the order of 800 x 600 and try to keep the
file size to less-than 200KB, preferably much less.
Microsoft has a really awesome utility available for free that allows
you to Right-Click on a picture in Explorer and automatically
scale it down and resave it. This is a great utility - get it, use it!
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys.mspx
Look for the link "Image Resizer"
3) !! This would seem to go without saying, but I'll say it anyway. Do not
post anything that would be considered offensive by your grandmother.
And you know what I'm saying; I don't want to see anything even
questionable. !!
4) REMEMBER THIS: If you post a 1MB enclosure to a List with 1000 members
subscribed, your 1MB enclosure must be resent 1000 times amounting
to 1MB X 1000 = 1 Gigabyte of network traffic!! BE CAREFUL and
BE COURTEOUS!
Also see the section below on the Matronics Photo and File Share where
you can have your files and photos posted on the Matronics web server
for long time viewing and availability.
*******************
*** Digest Mode ***
*******************
Each day, starting at 12 midnight PST US, a new 'digest' will be started.
This digest will contain the same information that is currently appended
to the archive file. It has all of the headers except for the "From:"
and "Subject:" lines removed, and includes a message separator consisting
of a line of underscores.
Each day at 23:55 PST US, the day's messages as described above will be
combined and sent as a single message to everyone on the digest email list.
To subscribe to the digest list, use the same subscription web form
described above, and just select the Digest version of the List.
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe
Note that you *can* be subscribed to both the realtime and digest versions
of the List at the same time. This is perfectly acceptable.
Now some caveats:
* Messages sent to "aeroelectric-list-digest" will be forwarded to the standard
email list. In other words, you cannot post messages only to the
digest List.
* If you are subscribed to both the regular List and the digest List, you
will receive the realtime postings as well as the digest at the end of
the day.
* If you reply to the digest email, your message will be forwarded to the
normal list associated with the digest. Important Note: Please change
the subject line to reflect the topic of your response! Also, please
*do not include all or most of the digest in your reply*.
****************************
*** List Digest Browser ***
****************************
An archive of all the List Digests can be found online in either plain text
or HTML format. These archives contain the exact Digest that was posted to
the Digest email list on the given day. The Digest Archives can be found
at the following location:
http://www.matronics.com/digest
*****************************************
*** The "DO NOT ARCHIVE" Message Flag ***
*****************************************
At times, your message may concern something that is revelent only to a very
small number of persons or to a limited area, and you may not wish to archive
it. In such a case, simply put the following phrase anywhere in the
message:
do not archive
Your message will not be appended to the archive, but will be sent to List
email distribution as normal.
**********************************************
***** READ THIS - Automatic Unsubscribes *****
**********************************************
Note that if your email address begins to cause problems such as bounced
email, mailbox is filled, or any other errors, your address will be promptly
removed from the List. If you discover that you are no longer receiving
messages from the AeroElectric-List, go to the following Web page, and look
for your email address and a possible reason for your removal.
The Matronics Email List uses utility called the "Email Weasel" that
automatically looks though the day's bounced email for addresses that
caused problems due to common things like "user is unknown", "mailbox
full", etc. If the Email Weasel removes your email address from the
Lists you will find record of it at the following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/unsubscribed
If the problem listed on the web site above has been resolved, please feel
free to resubscribe to the Lists of your choice.
*******************************
*** List Member Information ***
*******************************
If you have not done so already, please email me your phone numbers and
paper mail address in the following format:
smith@somehost.com
Joe Smith
123 Airport Lane
Tower, CA 91234-1234
098-765-1234 w
123-456-7890 h
Please forward this information to the following email address:
requests@matronics.com
I have a file of such things, that I typically use to contact you when
there are problems with your email address. The information will NOT
be used for any other commercial purpose.
****************************************
*** Realtime Web Email List Browsing ***
****************************************
Recent messages posted to the AeroElectric-List are also made available on
the Web for realtime browsing. Seven days worth of back postings are
available with this feature. The messages can be sorted by Subject,
Author, Date, or Message Thread. The Realtime List Browser indexes are
updated twice per hour at xx:15 and xx:45. You can also reply to a message
or start a new message directly from the List Browser Interface (coming soon).
You do not have to be subscribed to the given list to use the List
Browser Interface in view-mode.
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list
*******************************************
*** Web Forums Bulletin Board Interface ***
*******************************************
A phpBB BBS web Forums front end is available for all AeroElectric-List content.
content. The Forums contain all of the same content available via the email
distribution and found on the various archive viewing formats such as the
List Browse, etc. Any posts on the web Forums will be cross posted to the
respective email List, and posts to the Email List will be cross posted to
the web Forums.
You may view all List content on the Forums without any special login.
If you wish to post a message via the Web Forum interface, however, you
will need to Register. This is a simple process that takes only a few
minutes. A link to the Registration page can be found at the top of the
main web Forums page. Note that registering on the Forum web site also
enables you to send email posts to the Lists as well. You will also need to
Subscribe to the respective Email List as described above to receive the
Email Distribution of the List, however.
The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL:
http://forums.matronics.com
*********************************
*** Matronics Email List Wiki ***
*********************************
In an attempt to make it easy to store and find structured and often accessed
information, Matronics has installed a Wiki at:
http://wiki.matronics.com
The Wiki allows individuals to create web pages to contain useful information
for other users of the mailing lists and web site. Unlike an ordinary web page
where the content needs to be submitted to Matronics for inclusion, the Wiki
permits the users to construct their own pages and have them visible immediately.
While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be
comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any
images and email it to:
wiki-support@matronics.com
One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct
a Wiki page for you.
Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the
Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that
post and convert it into a Wiki page.
*********************
*** List Archives ***
*********************
A file containing of all of the previous postings to the AeroElectric-List is
available on line. The archive file information is available via the
Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below:
* AeroElectric-List.FAQ
- Latest version of the AeroElectric-List Frequently Asked Question
page (this document).
* AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete
- Complete file with most of the email header info removed and
page breaks inserted between messages.
* AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-??
- Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that
can more easily handled.
* AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete.zip
- Same as the AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete file above, but
in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
* AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete.Z
- Same as the AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete file above, but
in
UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
Download Via FTP
----------------
The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com
in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in
a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.)
ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives
Download Via Web
----------------
The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found
toward the bottom of the following web page:
http://www.matronics.com/archives
******************************************
*** Complete List Web Archive Browsing ***
******************************************
All messages posted to the AeroElectric-List are also available using the
Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages
in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed.
http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?AeroElectric
*****************************************
**** High-Speed Archive Search Engine ***
*****************************************
You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine
to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the
List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently
available List archives.
http://www.matronics.com/search
****************************
*** File and Photo Share ***
****************************
With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures
and other data with members of the List without having to forward a
copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email
them to:
pictures@matronics.com
!! ==> Please including the following information with each submission:
1) Email Lists that they are related to.
2) Your Full Name.
3) Your Email Address.
4) One line Subject description.
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic.
6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file
Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned
for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and
photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to
process them every few days.
Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be
sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new
Share is available and what the direct URL to it is.
For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main
Index Page:
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
**************************
*** List Archive CDROM ***
**************************
A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains
all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives
for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search
engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it
and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make
great gifts!
http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM
**********************************
*** List Support Contributions ***
**********************************
The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members.
You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of
annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages
associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November
I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month,
I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they
are comfortable.
I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the
Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated
by companies that are themselves List members.
Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists
including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server
system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many
many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the
variety of services found here.
Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary
and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains
value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude.
Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just
subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in.
The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are
a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and
sending a personal check.
If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to
support its continued operation?
http://www.matronics.com/contributions
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the AeroElectric-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the AeroElectric-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
AeroElectric-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the AeroElectric-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
Message 11
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Official AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
Dear Listers,
Please read over the AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete
AeroElectric-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/AeroElectric-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the AeroElectric-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the AeroElectric-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
AeroElectric-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the AeroElectric-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|