---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 09/01/06: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:13 AM - Re: Re: Is EFIS vulnerable at engine start? (PSILeD@aol.com) 2. 04:49 AM - Re: downside of manual battery disconnects? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 3. 04:58 AM - Re: in-rush limiters (FLYaDIVE@aol.com) 4. 05:06 AM - Re: in-rush limiters (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 07:10 AM - Re: Re: Is EFIS vulnerable at engine start? (OldBob Siegfried) 6. 08:31 AM - Re: in-rush limiters (FLYaDIVE@aol.com) 7. 09:58 AM - Re: Static port on Dynon AoA probe (Ernest Christley) 8. 11:39 AM - Re: Turn on ALT before engine start? (Logic and experience) () 9. 04:35 PM - Re: Re: Turn on ALT before engine start? (Logic and experience) (Doug Windhorn) 10. 11:32 PM - Official AeroElectric-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle) 11. 11:33 PM - Official AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:13:30 AM PST US From: PSILeD@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Is EFIS vulnerable at engine start? you could wire in a pushbutton, normally open, switch, to bypass normal switch, and push it in to keep power on the unit while you operate the "normal on" to "alternate on" switch. If added switch failed then you would be back as before push button switch was added. I would add PB switch adjacent to existing switch. Paul ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:49:44 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: downside of manual battery disconnects? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 02:03 PM 8/31/2006 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: D Wysong > >Does anyone have any experience with the manual battery disconnects that >the hot rod folks use? Piper Tri-Pacers and Pacers of the 1950's had manual battery master -AND- starter switches in them. While they limited the options for location (had to have fat-wire control devices in reach of pilot - and generally NOT on the panel) they functioned as intended. >Has anyone heard any issues with corrosion or failures or horror stories >floating around about these things? Everything corrodes. Most switches in service die of environmental issues . . . not from service stresses. >Are certain brands better than others? The use of these devices is so small a part of the constellation of choices as to make any significant field comparisons of devices difficult if not impossible >Are any (for whatever reason) more suitable for aircraft use than others? Airplanes are not terribly unique . . . especially if one crafts a failure tolerant design. Suppose your battery switch DOES crap . . . so what? If you're wired like a Tripacer, then your panel is black. If you're wired like Z-11, it's no big deal. Take a peak at: http://harborfreight.com and search for item 92688-1VGA Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:58:43 AM PST US From: FLYaDIVE@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: in-rush limiters --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com >Oh! When choosing the wire size, do NOT go by the Mil-Spec wire size used in >wiring the plane. I would DOUBLE that wire size. Don't understand why. The current ratings for choosing wire size from charts like those found in AC43-13 or chapter 8 of the 'Connection are already de-rated for 10C temperature rise. The 6A lamp cited in the original post would not seriously warm an inductor wound with 22AWG (5A rated) wire. Bob . . . ================================== Hello Bob: You have me smiling ... Now how did I know you were going to question this part :-) Let me start off by asking a LOADED QUESTION: What determines the current handling capabilities of a wire? I should wait at this point for a responce, but concidering that the question is also put the site's reading public ... I will guess at their answer and maybe yours. That being: The diameter, cross-sectional area of the wire. Does that sound like the most given answer? And it is a logical answer. But not the whole story. I did say it was a LOADED QUESTION. So to unload the answer: The Determining factor is the INSULATION, the thickness and type. Here is why. You have to ask the questions: What fails? And How? There are two failures. As the wire heats up, it heats up so much that it MELTS the insulation. FAILURE ... This exposes the wire to do any combination of events: Fire, short to ground - case - airframe or melt into and short to another wire. The other failure is crystalization of the wire from the heat. Usually repeated heat and that leads to the wire failing in an OPEN. This is not the norm. The norm is the insulation FAILING. Now, most builders do use Mil-Spec wire and the Mil-Spec wire does have a higher tempature rating and dialectric rating. So what determines the current handling capabilities of a wire? INSULATION - Told ya it was Loaded! Lets switch to the coil construction I mentioned. You said 30 Turns ... Only 30 Turns? Way Much More than 30 turns can fit on a form that has a 1/2" ID and a 1" OD and 2" Long ... That gives you 1/4" of room to build up and about 1 1/4" length to fill. I haven't worked out the Henry's (inductance) of the coil and quite honestly it does not matter. Too much engineering and not enough practicality. I know the size will work. How do I know? A life of experimentation! I have been getting my ass shocked since I was 11 years old :-) As the commercial says: Try it you'll like it. As we say here in NJ: Don't worry about it! O! For the size of the wire -- I would suggest 18 or 16 AWG enameled (Transformer) wire. It should handle the current and both circuit heat and engine heat. And even with this large size wire you should be able to get way more than 30 turns. Try it you'll like it. We are the EAA, Experiment! Happy Toe Tingles. Barry "Chop'd Liver" "Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third time." Yamashiada ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:06:23 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: in-rush limiters --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 07:50 PM 8/31/2006 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 8/31/2006 8:53:53 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, >nuckollsr@cox.net writes: > Don't understand why. The current ratings for choosing wire > size from charts like those found in AC43-13 or chapter > 8 of the 'Connection are already de-rated for 10C temperature > rise. The 6A lamp cited in the original post would not > seriously warm an inductor wound with 22AWG (5A rated) wire. > > Bob . . . >Bob, > >When wire is wound in a transformer or choke, the density of the power >loss is much greater than even in a bundle of wires. A typical design >value is 500 to 1000 circular mils per amp. Solid number 22 wire is 25.3 >mils in diameter and has about 643 circular mils. Therefore it is only >rated for about 1 amp when wound in a multi layered coil. Operating a >number 22 enamel wire at 5 amps continuously when it is tightly surrounded >by more number 22 enamel wire also carrying 5 amps would cause it to overheat. Define "overheat". I'm aware of the transformer design philosophies but were talking about a single layer solenoid wound inductor. The amount of current a 22AWG wire can carry without damaging its insulation is huge compared to the de-rating we impose for bundling and/or voltage drops. The 22AWG wire you see at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Wire/20A_22AWG.jpg had been carrying 20A for several minutes at the time this picture was taken. The temperature as monitored by the thermocouple in the photo was still well below operating limits for the wire. One of the most difficult concepts to illuminate with respect to wires is that the recommended current RATINGS for wires are chosen for a suite of inter-related effects not the least of which is insulation type and ability of the wire to reject heat - as installed. The values cited in the wire bundle charts are not even close to being LIMITS beyond which one may expect smoke, fire and otherwise unhappy times in the cockpit. For the case cited (single layer inductor) the charted rating for 22AWG at 5A would be quite conservative even for the 6+ amp landing light cited . . . assuming that the inductive approach to inrush limiting was useful. Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:10:20 AM PST US From: OldBob Siegfried Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Is EFIS vulnerable at engine start? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: OldBob Siegfried Good Morning All, Since I am an electrical neophyte, I should stay out of this discussion, but may I mention that several airliners I flew in a previous life had two basic types of switches used for system control. Most were the familiar snap type which "broke" the first circuit before "making" the next. Others were made such that the second circuit was connected before the first was disconnected. Naturally, the old style were called "break before make" and the others called were "make before break". How they worked mechanically is way beyond me, but it does seem that a "make before break" style switch might be s just what you want. Hopefully, they are available at a cost and weight that would work! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Stearman N3977A Downers Grove, IL LL22 Happy Skies, Old Bob --- PSILeD@aol.com wrote: > you could wire in a pushbutton, normally open, > switch, to bypass normal > switch, and push it in to keep power on the unit > while you operate the "normal > on" to "alternate on" switch. If added switch failed > then you would be back as > before push button switch was added. I would add PB > switch adjacent to > existing switch. > > Paul > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:31:53 AM PST US From: FLYaDIVE@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: in-rush limiters --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com In a message dated 9/1/06 8:12:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nuckollsr@cox.net writes: > Define "overheat". I'm aware of the transformer design > philosophies but were talking about a single layer solenoid > wound inductor. ============================== Who said! I said a form of 1/2" ID, 1" OD and 2" Long. That is no single layer ... Not unless you are using 1/4" thick wire. Barry "Chop'd Liver" "Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third time." Yamashiada ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:58:50 AM PST US From: Ernest Christley Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Static port on Dynon AoA probe --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ernest Christley rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us wrote: >Hello Ernest > >"The Dynon probe does nothing more than implement what this gentleman >describes. As I understand it, the exact dimensions aren't critical, as >it has to be calibrated for each airplane anyway. Look on the Dynon site. > They give the calibration procedures, and it is exactly what Mark and >David describe. As for exact dimensions: >3/4" aluminum tube that tapers down to 3/8" for the pitot, which is pushed >up to the top. >The bottom of the head has a triangular slice cut off at a 30 degree angle >from the bottom. The AoA sense hole is 5/8" from the tip. A little less >than 8" long." > >I am not certain that the Zodiac home made probe is doing the exact same >thing as the Dynon. >http://www.ch601.org/resources/aoa/aoa.htm > >What size is the size of the port hole of the Dynon AOA hole? >What angle is the port hole drilled in relation to the sliced face? >Is the sliced face flat or has a slight radius? > >Thx. >Sincerely >Ron Parigoris > > > It's about a 1/16th hole drilled tangentially to a flat face. The hole size and location aren't critical. The critical part is that you need two 'pitot' ports pointing forward at different angles. As you change angle of attack, the relative pressures on these two ports will change. It's a relative pressure between just those two ports, so static pressure or absolute dynamic pressure (from airspeed) are unimportant and ignored. As you slow down to where the wing can't maintain altitude, the wind is not coming straight at you, even if the nose is still on the horizon. Riding the edge of stall with a power out, you could be headed down at a 45degree angle even though the plane is in a level attitude. As you're sinking, it is coming from below. The lower pitot will 'feel' more of the rising air than the forward pointing one. How much more it 'feels' will rely completely on AoA. Now all that's necessary is a sensitive differential gauge to measure both pressures, the calibration procedure will set a couple of points that correspond to "doin' fine" and "lift all gone". Just throw in a semi-arbitrary red, yellow and green ranges, and you're good to go. It really is a simple yet profound concept. -- ,|"|"|, Ernest Christley | ----===<{{(oQo)}}>===---- Dyke Delta Builder | o| d |o http://ernest.isa-geek.org | ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:39:20 AM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Turn on ALT before engine start? (Logic and experience) Bob: I probably don't have scientific evidence of why I have the opinions I do or why it differs from yours. I do have logic and personal experience to share. We do agree that checklist are good, and from an electrical standpoint most alternators (not all) don't care if you turn them ON before or after start. OK? HOWEVER given the choice I say turn the ALT ON with the BAT before start and than back OFF together with the BAT after engine shut down. I'll explain. **Let me tell you all a little story first** One of my students many years ago was going on one of her solo cross country flights. Well she made one mistake and turned the battery on and accidentally left the ALT off (Cessna split switch). She took off enroute and did not note the discharge, mistake two. Never the less I can see it happening to anyone. She realized her error and proceed to turn the ALT on. Because the battery was now discharged it demanded a large current, it popped the CB with the combined load of lights, radios and battery charging. She did not think to "load shed" first, before resetting the CB. Well from then on she was perfect. She noted the CB pop, let cool, reset once and left it out when it popped the 2nd time. She did a 180 and than did an electrical load shed to save the remaining battery. Nearing the airport she powered the Comm up and landed without further incidence. Yes she should have turned the ALT on first; Yes she should have checked for charge right after start; Yes she probably would have been successful resetting the CB if she would have turned the strobes and avionics off first, before turning the ALT on; however I never taught her this. To be sure from than on I went over this in detail with all students using Machado's water flow analogy. (End of STORY) Here is how I arrived at my opinions: ONE - ANYTHING that can assure you don't make a mistake, like in the above story, is good. KEEP IT SIMPLE. Turning the ALT on first before start with the BAT is one of those KISS methods and step reducing things. IT MAKES SENSE to me and is LOGICAL to me, less steps are better. It's obvious if the BAT is not on, Right? Nothing happens. Turning the BAT/ALT on together is goodness in my opinion, you're less likely to forget the ALT. Tie the ALT and BAT together procedurally. We can agree to disagree. My argument or logical reason is LESS STEPS are BETTER from a human factor stand point (not electrical). The caveat is if the AFM calls for something different, like an old twin with generators or the B737 I use to fly, than do that. (The B757/767 brings the Gens online automatically; yea!) TWO - Most factory planes call for ALT/BAT turned on together; why not follow a standard which will aid transition and proficiency of other pilots across different planes, aka, why be different? My over all recommendations to anyone designing their panel or procedures, keep it simple and follow the traditional layouts and procedures as much as possible. Cessna puts the master, BAT and ALT switch together in a split toggle design for a reason, they are normally actuate together. I think Cessna got it right. Again it's my OPINION and apparently Cessna's opinion. Granted in my above story even the split switch is not fail-safe, but it helps. Bob, you can INSERT your argument in HERE that there should be a low volt idiot light. I agree, but that is POOR Airmanship to rely on idiot lights to configure the plane's electrical system properly. If you want me to prove my opinion or explain my logic better than I already have, I can't. I have no top secret oscilloscope plots to prove my opinion. It really is not an electrical thing, it's more human factors. My opinion is based on 12,000 hrs flt time & counting, CFI, ATP, airline and engineer for Boeing, which involved evaluating check list and teaching flight crews. As a former CFI-CFII-MEI, in over 20 different make/models of GA planes, almost all did not REQUIRE a separate ALT throwing step. You say so what? I say follow the standard. However if the AFM/Checklist say do it, than you are bound by FAR's to follow it. Can you imagine forgetting the ALT because of a modified procedures which got you into a pickle like my student but violating airspace because you where NO RADIO. Than the FAA asks, why? you say: **Oh I throw the ALT switch after start, even though the checklist says otherwise, because I think it's better, but I forgot this time.** hummmm Can you say violation and licence revoked? I love pilots who are too cool to BLINDLY follow checklist. Follow the darn checklist. It's not trivial or just to evaluate pilots by, it's the safety net of aviation, use it. Some day pilots flying a C-150 may be in a G-V or B747 and good checklist discipline is critical. Its just good Airmanship and I don't need any data to prove standardization is goodness. Experimental, do what ever you want, but suggest you try to consider the traditional or standard procedures as a starting point. Exception to the RULE - Internally regulated Alternators Again it does not matter from an electronics stand point for most alternators when you turn them ON or OFF except for internally regulated alternators. Since there's no I-VR alternators on factory planes, it only affects experimental aircraft that use them. I always have recommended I-VR alternators be ON before cranking the engine and OFF after engine shut down. The logical reason is, I-VR alternators are based on an automotive application. I again ask rhetorically, "How many cars need the driver to activate the alternator separately?" The answer is none. If using a I-VR alternator, it's logical to operate it the same way as it does in the automobile, for which it was designed. The second reason for not cycling internally regulated alternators while they're spinning is they can fail. From my experience and those of many I have helped and corresponded with, who had I-VR alternator problems, they all had a common thread, they played switch monkey with the ALT (IGN) switch. Anecdotal yes, but it's what I got, take it or leave it. Technically IC chips inside some I-VR's have delays and soft start functions most external voltage regulators don't have, including the B&C unit. By using an internal V-regulator to switch high amps ON/OFF is needless and counter to its design. Again, no scientific bench test or scope traces to show. Take it or leave it. Fact is I-VR's are microprocessor controlled in many cases and don't need or benefit from pilot switch monkey intervention (my opinion). Again my LOGIC, my EXPERIENCE, my OPINION and research into I-VR designs is the basis of my comments. I have no scientific proof that will make you happy Bob, sorry. The best I got, take it or leave it. Now Bob tell me why turning the ALT on and off as a separate step, post-start is superior? (Forget electrons, think like a pilot for a minute.) Regards George M, CFII-MEI, ATP, B73/75/76/CE500, MSME --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:35:27 PM PST US From: "Doug Windhorn" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Turn on ALT before engine start? (Logic and experience) George, Thank you for the lucid explanation of how you arrived at your opinions. It does make sense and, to me anyway, the rationale is solid. IMHO, the only thing I would have suggested you leave out of your post was your challenge to Bob to argue a point - why? Is there anything, really, to be gained? If he disagreed with your points, it is his option to pick up the keyboard and whack away - with the challenge, it becomes less his choice, as a point of "honor." This is much as a slanderous comment many years ago might have resulted in a pistol duel challenge. Hopefully, we have advanced beyond that mode for addressing disagreements. Keep up the good explanations for your opinions - it can help us all to better understand. Regards, Doug Windhorn ----- Original Message ----- From: gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, 01 September, 2006 11:36 Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Turn on ALT before engine start? (Logic and experience) Bob: I probably don't have scientific evidence of why I have the opinions I do or why it differs from yours. I do have logic and personal experience to share. We do agree that checklist are good, and from an electrical standpoint most alternators (not all) don't care if you turn them ON before or after start. OK? HOWEVER given the choice I say turn the ALT ON with the BAT before start and than back OFF together with the BAT after engine shut down. I'll explain. **Let me tell you all a little story first** One of my students many years ago was going on one of her solo cross country flights. Well she made one mistake and turned the battery on and accidentally left the ALT off (Cessna split switch). She took off enroute and did not note the discharge, mistake two. Never the less I can see it happening to anyone. She realized her error and proceed to turn the ALT on. Because the battery was now discharged it demanded a large current, it popped the CB with the combined load of lights, radios and battery charging. She did not think to "load shed" first, before resetting the CB. Well from then on she was perfect. She noted the CB pop, let cool, reset once and left it out when it popped the 2nd time. She did a 180 and than did an electrical load shed to save the remaining battery. Nearing the airport she powered the Comm up and landed without further incidence. Yes she should have turned the ALT on first; Yes she should have checked for charge right after start; Yes she probably would have been successful resetting the CB if she would have turned the strobes and avionics off first, before turning the ALT on; however I never taught her this. To be sure from than on I went over this in detail with all students using Machado's water flow analogy. (End of STORY) Here is how I arrived at my opinions: ONE - ANYTHING that can assure you don't make a mistake, like in the above story, is good. KEEP IT SIMPLE. Turning the ALT on first before start with the BAT is one of those KISS methods and step reducing things. IT MAKES SENSE to me and is LOGICAL to me, less steps are better. It's obvious if the BAT is not on, Right? Nothing happens. Turning the BAT/ALT on together is goodness in my opinion, you're less likely to forget the ALT. Tie the ALT and BAT together procedurally. We can agree to disagree. My argument or logical reason is LESS STEPS are BETTER from a human factor stand point (not electrical). The caveat is if the AFM calls for something different, like an old twin with generators or the B737 I use to fly, than do that. (The B757/767 brings the Gens online automatically; yea!) TWO - Most factory planes call for ALT/BAT turned on together; why not follow a standard which will aid transition and proficiency of other pilots across different planes, aka, why be different? My over all recommendations to anyone designing their panel or procedures, keep it simple and follow the traditional layouts and procedures as much as possible. Cessna puts the master, BAT and ALT switch together in a split toggle design for a reason, they are normally actuate together. I think Cessna got it right. Again it's my OPINION and apparently Cessna's opinion. Granted in my above story even the split switch is not fail-safe, but it helps. Bob, you can INSERT your argument in HERE that there should be a low volt idiot light. I agree, but that is POOR Airmanship to rely on idiot lights to configure the plane's electrical system properly. If you want me to prove my opinion or explain my logic better than I already have, I can't. I have no top secret oscilloscope plots to prove my opinion. It really is not an electrical thing, it's more human factors. My opinion is based on 12,000 hrs flt time & counting, CFI, ATP, airline and engineer for Boeing, which involved evaluating check list and teaching flight crews. As a former CFI-CFII-MEI, in over 20 different make/models of GA planes, almost all did not REQUIRE a separate ALT throwing step. You say so what? I say follow the standard. However if the AFM/Checklist say do it, than you are bound by FAR's to follow it. Can you imagine forgetting the ALT because of a modified procedures which got you into a pickle like my student but violating airspace because you where NO RADIO. Than the FAA asks, why? you say: **Oh I throw the ALT switch after start, even though the checklist says otherwise, because I think it's better, but I forgot this time.** hummmm Can you say violation and licence revoked? I love pilots who are too cool to BLINDLY follow checklist. Follow the darn checklist. It's not trivial or just to evaluate pilots by, it's the safety net of aviation, use it. Some day pilots flying a C-150 may be in a G-V or B747 and good checklist discipline is critical. Its just good Airmanship and I don't need any data to prove standardization is goodness. Experimental, do what ever you want, but suggest you try to consider the traditional or standard procedures as a starting point. Exception to the RULE - Internally regulated Alternators Again it does not matter from an electronics stand point for most alternators when you turn them ON or OFF except for internally regulated alternators. Since there's no I-VR alternators on factory planes, it only affects experimental aircraft that use them. I always have recommended I-VR alternators be ON before cranking the engine and OFF after engine shut down. The logical reason is, I-VR alternators are based on an automotive application. I again ask rhetorically, "How many cars need the driver to activate the alternator separately?" The answer is none. If using a I-VR alternator, it's logical to operate it the same way as it does in the automobile, for which it was designed. The second reason for not cycling internally regulated alternators while they're spinning is they can fail. From my experience and those of many I have helped and corresponded with, who had I-VR alternator problems, they all had a common thread, they played switch monkey with the ALT (IGN) switch. Anecdotal yes, but it's what I got, take it or leave it. Technically IC chips inside some I-VR's have delays and soft start functions most external voltage regulators don't have, including the B&C unit. By using an internal V-regulator to switch high amps ON/OFF is needless and counter to its design. Again, no scientific bench test or scope traces to show. Take it or leave it. Fact is I-VR's are microprocessor controlled in many cases and don't need or benefit from pilot switch monkey intervention (my opinion). Again my LOGIC, my EXPERIENCE, my OPINION and research into I-VR designs is the basis of my comments. I have no scientific proof that will make you happy Bob, sorry. The best I got, take it or leave it. Now Bob tell me why turning the ALT on and off as a separate step, post-start is superior? (Forget electrons, think like a pilot for a minute.) Regards George M, CFII-MEI, ATP, B73/75/76/CE500, MSME ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:32:25 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: AeroElectric-List: Official AeroElectric-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Matt Dralle Dear Listers, Please read over the AeroElectric-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below. The complete AeroElectric-List FAQ including the Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/AeroElectric-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator [ Note: This FAQ was designed to be displayed with a fixed width font such as Courier. 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Remember, however, that the syntax of your email address is very important with regard to the configuration of your email application such as Outlook or Eudora. For example, the following two email addresses may be functionally equivalent, but only one would pass the Matronics Email SPAM test depending on which was syntax was subscribed to the given List: smith@machine.domain.com smith@domain.com Either email address syntax is alright, just be sure that you configure your email application to match *exactly* the address you've subscibed to the List. ************************************** *** Enclosure Support on the Lists *** ************************************** Limited posting of enclosures such as pictures, documents, and spreadsheets is supported on the Lists. There are a number of restrictions, and these are detailed below. Please abide by the rules put forth regarding the content of enclosures. These are some of the features and limits of enclosures on the Matronics Lists: 1) Enclosures will only be posted to the Real Time version of the Lists. 2) Enclosures will NOT be included in the Daily Digest version of the Lists. 3) Enclosures WILL BE forwarded on to the BBS Forum Web site. 4) Enclosures will NOT be appended to the Archives. 5) Enclosures will NOT be available in the List Browse feature. 6) Only the following file types and extensions will be allowed: bmp doc dwg dxf gif jpg pdf png txt xls All other enclosures types will be rejected and email returned to sender. The enclosure types listed above are relatively safe from a virus standpoint and don't pose a particularly large security risk. 7) !! All incoming enclosures will be scanned for viruses prior to posting to the List. This is done in real time and will not slow down the process of posting the message !! Here are some rules for posting enclosures. Failure to abide by these rules could result in the removal of a subscriber's email address from the Lists. 1) Pay attention to what you are posting!! Make sure that the files you are enclosing aren't HUGE (greater that 1MB). Remember that there are still people checking they're email via dial up modem. If you post 30MB worth of pictures, you are placing an unnecessary burden on these folks and the rest of us, for that matter. 2) SCALE YOUR PICTURES DOWN!!! I don't want to see huge 3000 x 2000 pictures getting posted that are 3 or 4MB each. This is just unacceptable. Use a program such as Photoshop to scale the picture down to something on the order of 800 x 600 and try to keep the file size to less-than 200KB, preferably much less. Microsoft has a really awesome utility available for free that allows you to Right-Click on a picture in Explorer and automatically scale it down and resave it. This is a great utility - get it, use it! http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys.mspx Look for the link "Image Resizer" 3) !! This would seem to go without saying, but I'll say it anyway. Do not post anything that would be considered offensive by your grandmother. And you know what I'm saying; I don't want to see anything even questionable. !! 4) REMEMBER THIS: If you post a 1MB enclosure to a List with 1000 members subscribed, your 1MB enclosure must be resent 1000 times amounting to 1MB X 1000 = 1 Gigabyte of network traffic!! BE CAREFUL and BE COURTEOUS! Also see the section below on the Matronics Photo and File Share where you can have your files and photos posted on the Matronics web server for long time viewing and availability. ******************* *** Digest Mode *** ******************* Each day, starting at 12 midnight PST US, a new 'digest' will be started. This digest will contain the same information that is currently appended to the archive file. It has all of the headers except for the "From:" and "Subject:" lines removed, and includes a message separator consisting of a line of underscores. Each day at 23:55 PST US, the day's messages as described above will be combined and sent as a single message to everyone on the digest email list. To subscribe to the digest list, use the same subscription web form described above, and just select the Digest version of the List. http://www.matronics.com/subscribe Note that you *can* be subscribed to both the realtime and digest versions of the List at the same time. This is perfectly acceptable. Now some caveats: * Messages sent to "aeroelectric-list-digest" will be forwarded to the standard email list. In other words, you cannot post messages only to the digest List. * If you are subscribed to both the regular List and the digest List, you will receive the realtime postings as well as the digest at the end of the day. * If you reply to the digest email, your message will be forwarded to the normal list associated with the digest. Important Note: Please change the subject line to reflect the topic of your response! Also, please *do not include all or most of the digest in your reply*. **************************** *** List Digest Browser *** **************************** An archive of all the List Digests can be found online in either plain text or HTML format. These archives contain the exact Digest that was posted to the Digest email list on the given day. The Digest Archives can be found at the following location: http://www.matronics.com/digest ***************************************** *** The "DO NOT ARCHIVE" Message Flag *** ***************************************** At times, your message may concern something that is revelent only to a very small number of persons or to a limited area, and you may not wish to archive it. In such a case, simply put the following phrase anywhere in the message: do not archive Your message will not be appended to the archive, but will be sent to List email distribution as normal. ********************************************** ***** READ THIS - Automatic Unsubscribes ***** ********************************************** Note that if your email address begins to cause problems such as bounced email, mailbox is filled, or any other errors, your address will be promptly removed from the List. If you discover that you are no longer receiving messages from the AeroElectric-List, go to the following Web page, and look for your email address and a possible reason for your removal. The Matronics Email List uses utility called the "Email Weasel" that automatically looks though the day's bounced email for addresses that caused problems due to common things like "user is unknown", "mailbox full", etc. If the Email Weasel removes your email address from the Lists you will find record of it at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/unsubscribed If the problem listed on the web site above has been resolved, please feel free to resubscribe to the Lists of your choice. ******************************* *** List Member Information *** ******************************* If you have not done so already, please email me your phone numbers and paper mail address in the following format: smith@somehost.com Joe Smith 123 Airport Lane Tower, CA 91234-1234 098-765-1234 w 123-456-7890 h Please forward this information to the following email address: requests@matronics.com I have a file of such things, that I typically use to contact you when there are problems with your email address. The information will NOT be used for any other commercial purpose. **************************************** *** Realtime Web Email List Browsing *** **************************************** Recent messages posted to the AeroElectric-List are also made available on the Web for realtime browsing. Seven days worth of back postings are available with this feature. The messages can be sorted by Subject, Author, Date, or Message Thread. The Realtime List Browser indexes are updated twice per hour at xx:15 and xx:45. You can also reply to a message or start a new message directly from the List Browser Interface (coming soon). You do not have to be subscribed to the given list to use the List Browser Interface in view-mode. http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list ******************************************* *** Web Forums Bulletin Board Interface *** ******************************************* A phpBB BBS web Forums front end is available for all AeroElectric-List content. content. The Forums contain all of the same content available via the email distribution and found on the various archive viewing formats such as the List Browse, etc. Any posts on the web Forums will be cross posted to the respective email List, and posts to the Email List will be cross posted to the web Forums. You may view all List content on the Forums without any special login. If you wish to post a message via the Web Forum interface, however, you will need to Register. This is a simple process that takes only a few minutes. A link to the Registration page can be found at the top of the main web Forums page. Note that registering on the Forum web site also enables you to send email posts to the Lists as well. You will also need to Subscribe to the respective Email List as described above to receive the Email Distribution of the List, however. The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL: http://forums.matronics.com ********************************* *** Matronics Email List Wiki *** ********************************* In an attempt to make it easy to store and find structured and often accessed information, Matronics has installed a Wiki at: http://wiki.matronics.com The Wiki allows individuals to create web pages to contain useful information for other users of the mailing lists and web site. Unlike an ordinary web page where the content needs to be submitted to Matronics for inclusion, the Wiki permits the users to construct their own pages and have them visible immediately. While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any images and email it to: wiki-support@matronics.com One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct a Wiki page for you. Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that post and convert it into a Wiki page. ********************* *** List Archives *** ********************* A file containing of all of the previous postings to the AeroElectric-List is available on line. The archive file information is available via the Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below: * AeroElectric-List.FAQ - Latest version of the AeroElectric-List Frequently Asked Question page (this document). * AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete - Complete file with most of the email header info removed and page breaks inserted between messages. * AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-?? - Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that can more easily handled. * AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete.zip - Same as the AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. * AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete.Z - Same as the AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. Download Via FTP ---------------- The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.) ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives Download Via Web ---------------- The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found toward the bottom of the following web page: http://www.matronics.com/archives ****************************************** *** Complete List Web Archive Browsing *** ****************************************** All messages posted to the AeroElectric-List are also available using the Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed. http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?AeroElectric ***************************************** **** High-Speed Archive Search Engine *** ***************************************** You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently available List archives. http://www.matronics.com/search **************************** *** File and Photo Share *** **************************** With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures and other data with members of the List without having to forward a copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email them to: pictures@matronics.com !! ==> Please including the following information with each submission: 1) Email Lists that they are related to. 2) Your Full Name. 3) Your Email Address. 4) One line Subject description. 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic. 6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to process them every few days. Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new Share is available and what the direct URL to it is. For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main Index Page: http://www.matronics.com/photoshare ************************** *** List Archive CDROM *** ************************** A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make great gifts! http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM ********************************** *** List Support Contributions *** ********************************** The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members. You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month, I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they are comfortable. I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated by companies that are themselves List members. Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the variety of services found here. Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude. Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in. The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and sending a personal check. If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to support its continued operation? http://www.matronics.com/contributions Thank you! Matt Dralle Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the AeroElectric-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the AeroElectric-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. AeroElectric-List Policy Statement The purpose of the AeroElectric-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:33:12 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: AeroElectric-List: Official AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Matt Dralle Dear Listers, Please read over the AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete AeroElectric-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/AeroElectric-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the AeroElectric-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the AeroElectric-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. AeroElectric-List Policy Statement The purpose of the AeroElectric-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive