Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:41 AM - Re: Wiring diagram software (Hopperdhh@aol.com)
2. 07:09 AM - Kilovac EV200 (Matt & Jo)
3. 07:11 AM - Re: Wiring diagram software (Eric Parlow)
4. 08:06 AM - Re: Logic and experience (was about alternators) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 09:18 AM - The alternator drive stand . . . (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 09:48 AM - Re: Kilovac EV200 (Gilles Thesee)
7. 11:58 AM - RG batteries with 35A generators (Dave N6030X)
8. 12:01 PM - Re: The alternator drive stand . . . ()
9. 02:38 PM - Re: Kilovac EV200 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
10. 03:08 PM - Re: RG batteries with 35A generators (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
11. 03:29 PM - Re: The alternator drive stand . . . (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
12. 05:09 PM - Re: The alternator drive stand . . . ()
13. 07:15 PM - Re: The alternator drive stand . . . (jerb)
14. 07:24 PM - Re: The alternator drive stand . . . (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
15. 07:31 PM - Re: The alternator drive stand . . . (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
16. 08:07 PM - Re: RG batteries with 35A generators (Jim Michael)
17. 08:35 PM - Re: The alternator drive stand . . . (Richard E. Tasker)
18. 11:10 PM - Re: The alternator drive stand . . . ()
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Wiring diagram software |
Vern,
Thanks for making this available. I already had ExpressPCB, so I downloaded
your schematic and symbols for future use.
do not archive
Dan Hopper
RV-7A
In a message dated 9/2/2006 11:10:05 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
rv-9a-online@telus.net writes:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Vern Little
<rv-9a-online@telus.net>
How about free, with a complete design already done that you can edit as
you want?
See http://vx-aviation.com/page_3.html
All of the details are available there to download what you want.
Vern Little
Eric Parlow wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric Parlow"
> <ericparlow@hotmail.com>
>
> What software is available to make wiring diagrams at a reasonable cost?
>
> Eric Parlow
> RV-10 Avionics
>
>
Message 2
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt & Jo" <archermj@swbell.net>
Hello all.
I will be using Z-16 with my Jabiru installation. The Jab Permanat Magnet
only puts out 20 Amps and I was considering using the Kilovac EV200 since it
has a low current draw. I saw some traffic earlier that there was a noise
problem with the Kilovac. Has anyone used the EV200 sucessfully. Are there
any tricks or technequies for this uint.
Matt
www.zodiacxl.com
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Wiring diagram software |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric Parlow" <ericparlow@hotmail.com>
Vern,
Thanks, Exactly what I was looking for.
Your site is very helpful and I appreciate you making the program available.
ERic--
RV-10
Avionics
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Logic and experience (was about alternators) |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 11:36 AM 9/1/2006 -0700, you wrote:
>Bob:
>
>I probably don't have scientific evidence of why I have
>the opinions I do or why it differs from yours. I do have
>logic and personal experience to share.
>
>We do agree that checklist are good, and from an
>electrical standpoint most alternators (not all) don't care
>if you turn them ON before or after start. OK?
>
>HOWEVER given the choice I say turn the ALT ON with
>the BAT before start and than back OFF together with the
>BAT after engine shut down. I'll explain.
>
>
>**Let me tell you all a little story first**
>One of my students many years ago was going on one of
>her solo cross country flights. Well she made one
>mistake and turned the battery on and accidentally left
>the ALT off (Cessna split switch). . .
<snip>
>Bob, you can INSERT your argument in HERE that
>there should be a low volt idiot light. I agree, but that is
>POOR Airmanship to rely on idiot lights to configure the
>plane's electrical system properly.
No argument. Never was probability of an argument. The
Cessna system design (and for most GA single engine
aircraft) sucks. The anecdote cited has nothing to do
with the question that started this thread.
>
>
>If you want me to prove my opinion or explain my logic
>better than I already have, I can't. I have no top secret
>oscilloscope plots to prove my opinion. It really is not
>an electrical thing, it's more human factors.
>
>My opinion is based on 12,000 hrs flt time & counting,
>CFI, ATP, airline and engineer for Boeing, which . . .
<snip>
And I might have a lifetime of picking apples but
that doesn't make me an apple horticulturist. I've
spent 50 years getting my hands dirty, figuring out
how things work, designing new products and doing
my best to keep customers happy, but that doesn't
make me a human factors expert either.
I've never asked you to prove anything, only offer logical
foundation for your assertions . . . be a teacher
for the ideas you hold dear.
>
>**Oh I throw the ALT switch after start, even though the
>checklist says otherwise, because I think it's better,
>but I forgot this time.**
>
>hummmm
>
>Can you say violation and licence revoked? I love pilots
>who are too cool to BLINDLY follow checklist. Follow the
>darn checklist. It's not trivial or just to evaluate pilots by,
>it's the safety net of aviation, use it. Some day pilots flying
>a C-150 may be in a G-V or B747 and good checklist
>discipline is critical. Its just good Airmanship and I don't
>need any data to prove standardization is goodness.
Discipline IS critical and understanding leads to
the crafting of good checklists. But when we choose to
work in the type certificated aviation, we're
subject to the will and whim of many who exert a force
based on demands for our faith and fear of reprisal
for any transgressions. More on this later . . .
>
>Experimental, do what ever you want, but suggest you try
>to consider the traditional or standard procedures as a
>starting point.
. . . agreed . . . and then EXPAND on that to see
what's supported by the science and what makes sense for
achieving our own design goals. It's also wise to
acknowledge a strong probability that government and
industry have adopted certain practices for nothing more
than the sake of adopting common practices . . . but that's
a human factors thing . . .
>
>
>Exception to the RULE - Internally regulated Alternators
>
>Again it does not matter from an electronics stand point
>for most alternators when you turn them ON or OFF except
>for internally regulated alternators. Since there's no I-VR
>alternators on factory planes, it only affects experimental
>aircraft that use them.
NEVER argued against that. This is what prompted
the design goal to craft a way that the I-R alternator
can be seamlessly integrated into the classic architectures
so that their controllability shortfall is eliminated.
>
>I always have recommended I-VR alternators be ON
>before cranking the engine and OFF after engine shut
>down. The logical reason is, I-VR alternators are based
>on an automotive application. I again ask rhetorically,
>"How many cars need the driver to activate the alternator
>separately?" The answer is none. If using a I-VR
>alternator, it's logical to operate it the same way as it
>does in the automobile, for which it was designed.
If you embrace that philosophy, fly it in comfort
and peace. My customers have asked for more and
I'll do my best to deliver on it . . .
>
>The second reason for not cycling internally regulated
>alternators while they're spinning is they can fail. From
>my experience and those of many I have helped and
>corresponded with, who had I-VR alternator problems,
>they all had a common thread, they played switch
>monkey with the ALT (IGN) switch. Anecdotal yes, but
>it's what I got, take it or leave it.
Agreed. That's what prompted the TEMPORARY withdrawal
of Z-24 until a better system can be crafted. The
system integration problem can and will be solved.
>
>Technically IC chips inside some I-VR's have delays and
>soft start functions most external voltage regulators
>don't have, including the B&C unit. By using an internal
>V-regulator to switch high amps ON/OFF is needless and
>counter to its design. Again, no scientific bench test or
>scope traces to show. Take it or leave it. Fact is I-VR's are
>microprocessor controlled in many cases and don't need
>or benefit from pilot switch monkey intervention (my opinion).
>
>Again my LOGIC, my EXPERIENCE, my OPINION and
>research into I-VR designs is the basis of my comments.
>I have no scientific proof that will make you happy Bob,
>sorry. The best I got, take it or leave it.
Thanks, but I'll have to leave it. I'm not asking you to
make me happy. I'm not even trying to convince you
of anything. Your 'research' into IR alternators from
the engineering perspective has yet to demonstrate
a depth of information necessary to assist you in
becoming an illuminating resource on the topic.
>Now Bob tell me why turning the ALT on and off as a
>separate step, post-start is superior? (Forget electrons,
>think like a pilot for a minute.)
I'm wasn't arguing superior versus inferior. The question
was, "does it matter from the perspective of physics" and
my answer was "NO . . . except for the I-R alternator's
special case . . . which WILL be dealt with in a
rational manner."
You're a teacher of pilots. Craft any syllabus and
adopt any understanding of physics you wish which
your handlers will bless. I am a teacher of designers
and a provider of products. My customers are my "handlers"
and they've expressed interest in knowing how things work
so that they may judge the worth of my ideas and products for
themselves. I hold my own teachers to the same standards.
My goals are for a shared understanding, not faith.
As we're growing up, folks who hold authority over
us MUST operate under a philosophy of faith and fear: "I'm
the adult, you're the child. Trust me to know what's
best for you but know that failure to observe the
rules of my household may prove painful."
One hopes that as we transition from child to adult, we
acquire understanding and confidence: "I understand the nature
of the problem before me and I'm confident of my ability to
deal with it in an honorable, reasoned manner that minimizes
risk."
Unfortunately, many who SHOULD have made this transition
years ago are still subject to the pressures from those
who would exert influence on our lives under the doctrines
of faith/fear. There are individuals who elevate themselves
above what they've perceived as unfortunate, un-educable
masses and take on the role of eternal parent. This is in
contrast with the transient teacher who offers the best they know
and sends folks on their way in confidence to search for
new knowledge, skills and understanding.
A too-large proportion of our fellow citizens place almost
religious faith in policy, regulation, certification,
tradition, etc. I'm only suggesting that folks
who choose to join the OBAM aviation community have already
rejected a facet of mindless worship of tradition
and government's willingness to be the the eternal parent.
In the type certificated household we're told: "I'm in
charge here, the VALUE of my contribution is irrelevant and
your understanding matters not - do as I say or be sanctioned."
You are free to teach any philosophy you wish . . .
your students pay their tuition and take their chances.
That's the way it is in the hard, cold and cruel world
of consumer/supplier relationships. If your students
are content with value-received and you've delivered
on what you promised, then there's no argument from me . . .
especially if your willing to tell them, "I don't have any
science but this is what I believe." It's called "truth in
advertising". I would only counsel that what you offer should
liberating, not binding. This is the difference between
being a teacher and a propagandist.
Bob . . .
Message 5
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| Subject: | The alternator drive stand . . . |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
I took a short trip yesterday in 'ol blue (a truck I inherited from
Dad) to take a look at the alternator drive stand I spoke of last
week. What a magnificent machine! Motor controlled variable speed
drive, well instrumented, self contained system simulator with
batteries, really beefy carbon pile load. Minimal barn-bird-crap
and rust. Best yet, mounted on casters.
Now the down side . . . it's fitted with a 10 hp, 440v three-phase
motor. I've been digging through the catalogs for reasonable
replacements that will run from the electron-pipe that comes into
my house.
I think I've identified a 5 hp, 240v single phase with the right
shaft diameter . . . and it's only $400 plus another $100 shipping.
When you're talking this size of motor, they start getting HEAVY!
I've made an agreement with the current owner to take over his
project with the proviso that he has access to it as needed and
that if I decide to get rid of it, he has first crack at it at
the "brother-in-law" price. Sounds like a deal to me.
I may well have this puppy up and running in my shop before
the end of the year.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Kilovac EV200 |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Matt and all,
>
> I will be using Z-16 with my Jabiru installation. The Jab Permanat
> Magnet only puts out 20 Amps and I was considering using the Kilovac
> EV200 since it has a low current draw. I saw some traffic earlier
> that there was a noise problem with the Kilovac. Has anyone used the
> EV200 sucessfully. Are there any tricks or technequies for this uint.
>
As I may be the one who raised the EV200 noise issue, here are some info.
The circuit I designed is based on Z-16 with two batteries and two EV-200.
The he Low Voltage light failed to illuminate when the EV-200 was in
use. After much head scraching, I concluded that the Low Volage module
did not like what the EV-200 was throwing at the circuit.
After much head scratching (the Low Voltage module worked flawlessly
when the main EV-200 was open), I replaced it with a Perihelion model,
and everything has been working perfectly for nearly two years.
More on the LVW story at http://contrails.free.fr/elec_lvwm_en.php
By the way, the study conducted on the Rotax regulator, and the
suggestion from my electrician buddy on the sense (C) wire may have led
to the recent Z-16 update.
Regards,
Gilles Thesee
Grenoble, France
http://contrails.free.fr
Message 7
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| Subject: | RG batteries with 35A generators |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dave N6030X <N6030X@DaveMorris.com>
Bob,
I have been doing a lot of reading lately, and somewhere I was
reading an article on RG batteries - now I cannot find it anywhere -
that said if your aircraft system is a generator instead of an
alternator, and if it is a 35A or less system, you should not use an
RG battery. I believe I remember the statement came from a Concorde
spokesperson.
Do you know anything about such a limitation?
Thanks
Dave Morris
Mooney M20A
N6030X
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: The alternator drive stand . . . |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Hello Bob
"Now the down side . . . it's fitted with a 10 hp, 440v three-phase motor.
I've been digging through the catalogs for reasonable replacements that
will run from the electron-pipe that comes into my house."
Hello Bob
"Now the down side . . . it's fitted with a 10 hp, 440v three-phase motor.
I've been digging through the catalogs for reasonable replacements that
will run from the electron-pipe that comes into my house."
Did you check to see if you can rewire the 440v motor for 220/240?
If you can, you could run it on 220v single phase and use a capacitor or
means of getting it turning to run it on single phase. Of course if you
get any garden variety of 3 phase motors 2 or more hp if you leave it run
as a phase converter, it will allow a start with reasonable torque. The
more 3 phase motors running on single phase, the stronger the third leg.
I have a 7.5hp and 3hp (physical motor) phase converter in my garage. Home
owners will not cover if 3 phase in house by power company. The way I did
it is have phase converters plugged into a giant 220 outlet. This makes
the Ins. Co. happy, they consider it an appliance.
Then I have output plumbed into a 3 phase panel and conduit to machines.
One machine I run is a Monarch EE which has a 5HP motor that turns a DC
generator. They do hocus pocus where they manage to get very good low
speed torque, and is fully controllable. That is the way they did it in
1941.
Anyway the Monarch motor was wired for 440 and I converted it to 220. One
minor problem is since you are halving the voltage, you will draw more
amps. The heaters used for internal breakers were too powerful, i needed
to change them out. Another malady is the third leg is not absolute clean,
I had some relay chatter, by switching to another leg that cured the
problem.
Working great since 1987. There has been a few times through the years
where I needed a lot of power. The 7.5 hp and the 5hp Monarch running
together is a little less powerful than pure 3 phase. I ran my 2hp
Bridgport and 2hp sander to aid the third leg. When really loading down
the motor, you could hear that it was happier with the 2 other machines
running.
Good luck!
Ron Parigoris
BTW I have do it yourself articles for making a friction drive (with aux 1
phase motor) or a phase shift capacitor with timer relay to get 3 phase
generator going. My 7.5 hp has a timer relay, but once running you need to
throw a switch, or else bad things happen when you shut down. The 3hp has
a simple push button, push it and once running let it go. I like the
push-button better!
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Kilovac EV200 |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 09:07 AM 9/3/2006 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt & Jo" <archermj@swbell.net>
>
>Hello all.
>
>I will be using Z-16 with my Jabiru installation. The Jab Permanat Magnet
>only puts out 20 Amps and I was considering using the Kilovac EV200 since
>it has a low current draw. I saw some traffic earlier that there was a
>noise problem with the Kilovac. Has anyone used the EV200
>sucessfully. Are there any tricks or technequies for this uint.
I've heard of several cases where folks have experienced
system interference from the EV200's duty cycle limited
coil controller. But before you pop for the $high$ contactor
to save a 0.7 amps of hold current, what were you planning
to use that 0.7 amps for?
Bob . . .
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: RG batteries with 35A generators |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 01:54 PM 9/3/2006 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dave N6030X <N6030X@DaveMorris.com>
>
>Bob,
>
>I have been doing a lot of reading lately, and somewhere I was reading an
>article on RG batteries - now I cannot find it anywhere - that said if
>your aircraft system is a generator instead of an alternator, and if it is
>a 35A or less system, you should not use an RG battery. I believe I
>remember the statement came from a Concorde spokesperson.
>
>Do you know anything about such a limitation?
I cannot imagine why . . . I'll be talking with Skip
next week on other matters, I'll ask him if this is a
bit of wisdom from Concorde. But as far as I can deduce,
the technology of the engine driven power source is not
linked to the suitability of RG vs. any other battery.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: The alternator drive stand . . . |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 06:59 PM 9/3/2006 +0000, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
>
>Hello Bob
>
>"Now the down side . . . it's fitted with a 10 hp, 440v three-phase motor.
>I've been digging through the catalogs for reasonable replacements that
>will run from the electron-pipe that comes into my house."
>
>Hello Bob
>
>"Now the down side . . . it's fitted with a 10 hp, 440v three-phase motor.
>I've been digging through the catalogs for reasonable replacements that
>will run from the electron-pipe that comes into my house."
>
>Did you check to see if you can rewire the 440v motor for 220/240?
I believe it can. I considered the phase converter approach. I have
a number of articles in my archives that speak to use of
an unloaded 3-phase motor and array of capacitors. One such
article is available at:
http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/ph-conv/ph-conv.html
B&C uses this technique for their machine shop in Newton.
I've never gotten my hands dirty on one of these systems. I note
in the article that the converter motor should be equal to or larger
than the largest motor in the downstream system. This calls for
another 10 h.p. motor, the attendant capacitors, labor to assemble
and space to house.
After wrestling with the notion, it seemed a lower cost of ownership
solution to simply replace the existing motor with a single-phase
device albeit a smaller one. The existing motor is quite clean. I might
be able to recoup some conversion costs by selling the old motor. But
then if I kept it, I'd have a phase-converter motor available for any
future adventures into 3-phase tools. That's all I need, a 100 pound prime
piece of junque for my inventory of needful things!
>Working great since 1987. There has been a few times through the years
>where I needed a lot of power. The 7.5 hp and the 5hp Monarch running
>together is a little less powerful than pure 3 phase. I ran my 2hp
>Bridgport and 2hp sander to aid the third leg. When really loading down
>the motor, you could hear that it was happier with the 2 other machines
>running.
Yeah, your experience re-enforces the notion that the converter
motor needs to be a real pig for best performance. I'll poke around
some of the local motor houses and surplus yards. If I could get
a boss-hog 3-phase motor really cheap . . .
>BTW I have do it yourself articles for making a friction drive (with aux 1
>phase motor) or a phase shift capacitor with timer relay to get 3 phase
>generator going. My 7.5 hp has a timer relay, but once running you need to
>throw a switch, or else bad things happen when you shut down. The 3hp has
>a simple push button, push it and once running let it go. I like the
>push-button better!
I've seen converters where the builder simply couples a small
motor to the phase converter machine and leaves it mechanically
engaged and powered during normal operations. I don't see how it
would 'hurt' anything . . . but again, I suspect one would want to
time delay application of power to the idler motor for a second or
two while the starter-motor gets things in motion. Thanks for the
feedback.
Bob . . .
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: The alternator drive stand . . . |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Hello Bob
I am not certain how your spinemthealternator machine works.
Could you not just use the 10 HP motor as the phase converter?
In other words, start up your 10 hp motor with no load from the alternator
till the 10 hp gets going, then bring on the BTU output for alternator
load.
Dart throw the 10HP motor on single phase should be at least 5 hp?? Again
start adding 3 phase motors in parallel and output from 5HP will increase.
The concept of a phase converter is simple, but essential you need to get
a 3 phase motor spinning and then run it on single phase.
If you don't need to start your 10 hp motor from dead, you may not need
another motor at all.
Principal is simple, somehow you need to get the 3 phase motor spinning
before you add single phase or it will sit there "Stupid" and hummmmm.
We discusses an aux motor to get it going, or temp. putting a phase shift
capacitor to get it going, I will suggest you try your machine with the
simplest (famous last words) by wrapping a rope around the shaft and
giving it a good pull then adding single phase power.
Lets say you need to test a 100 amp alternator, at 28V, that's 2800 watts
or ~ 1/3 of 10HP.
If you like results, go for the capacitor.
Good Luck
Ron P.
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: The alternator drive stand . . . |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: jerb <ulflyer@verizon.net>
If I recall right there's a way of using a single phase motor to turn
a 3 phase to output three power. Machinist use this as cheap 3 phase
converter when they need 3 phase for three shop at home where 3 phase
is not available or cost prohibitive.
jerb
At 11:15 AM 9/3/2006, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
><nuckollsr@cox.net>
>
>I took a short trip yesterday in 'ol blue (a truck I inherited from
>Dad) to take a look at the alternator drive stand I spoke of last
>week. What a magnificent machine! Motor controlled variable speed
>drive, well instrumented, self contained system simulator with
>batteries, really beefy carbon pile load. Minimal barn-bird-crap
>and rust. Best yet, mounted on casters.
>
>Now the down side . . . it's fitted with a 10 hp, 440v three-phase
>motor. I've been digging through the catalogs for reasonable
>replacements that will run from the electron-pipe that comes into
>my house.
>
>I think I've identified a 5 hp, 240v single phase with the right
>shaft diameter . . . and it's only $400 plus another $100 shipping.
>When you're talking this size of motor, they start getting HEAVY!
>
>I've made an agreement with the current owner to take over his
>project with the proviso that he has access to it as needed and
>that if I decide to get rid of it, he has first crack at it at
>the "brother-in-law" price. Sounds like a deal to me.
>
>I may well have this puppy up and running in my shop before
>the end of the year.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
> < the authority which determines whether there can be >
> < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
> < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
> < with experiment. >
> < --Lawrence M. Krauss >
> ---------------------------------------------------------
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: The alternator drive stand . . . |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 12:05 AM 9/4/2006 +0000, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
>
>Hello Bob
>
>I am not certain how your spinemthealternator machine works.
>
>Could you not just use the 10 HP motor as the phase converter?
>
>In other words, start up your 10 hp motor with no load from the alternator
>till the 10 hp gets going, then bring on the BTU output for alternator
>load.
>
>Dart throw the 10HP motor on single phase should be at least 5 hp?? Again
>start adding 3 phase motors in parallel and output from 5HP will increase.
No, single phase motors that use some form of magnetic resistor-inductive,
or capacitor-inductive phase shifting achieve what appears to the rotor
as a spinning magnetic field. Three phase motors assume there's three
120-degree shifted sources of energy that don't need to do any "fool'n".
The result is an extremely efficient motor that works without reactance in
the electrics or shaded poles in the magnetics.
>The concept of a phase converter is simple, but essential you need to get
>a 3 phase motor spinning and then run it on single phase.
>If you don't need to start your 10 hp motor from dead, you may not need
>another motor at all.
3-phase motors that are very lightly loaded (gyro motors are a good
example) will run acceptably well from a single phase supply when
augmented with some external resistances and reactances. Years
ago, I designed a single phase inverter and companion phase shift
networks to spin up military surplus, 3-phase attitude gyros.
The "fooler" supply took about 3x as long for the motor to reach
running speed on power-up . . . and the top speed was about 10%
slower than design speed compared with a true 3-phase supply
- but satisfactory.
>Principal is simple, somehow you need to get the 3 phase motor spinning
>before you add single phase or it will sit there "Stupid" and hummmmm.
True of single phase motors that have lost their start-up circuit
but 3-phase motors don't have the shading/shifting necessary for
single phase running.
>We discusses an aux motor to get it going, or temp. putting a phase shift
>capacitor to get it going, I will suggest you try your machine with the
>simplest (famous last words) by wrapping a rope around the shaft and
>giving it a good pull then adding single phase power.
If it runs at all, it will be exceedingly lacking in power. The
article I cited is an excellent example of a technique that
gets you a majority of the motor's rated capability. Passive phase
shift networks fall far short of this.
Bob . . .
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: The alternator drive stand . . . |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 09:10 PM 10/3/2006 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: jerb <ulflyer@verizon.net>
>
>If I recall right there's a way of using a single phase motor to turn a 3
>phase to output three power. Machinist use this as cheap 3 phase
>converter when they need 3 phase for three shop at home where 3 phase is
>not available or cost prohibitive.
>jerb
No, an auxiliary 3-phase motor as shown in:
http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/ph-conv/ph-conv.html
Bob . . .
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: RG batteries with 35A generators |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jim Michael <jm@10squaredcorp.com>
Data point - There is an SB for Stinsons that provides a list of
current batteries that should be used in the 108 series which have
generators. RG batteries are on the list, but not the extra capacity
versions with stated reason being the charging system cannot handle
the extra capacity.
On Sunday 03 September 2006 22:04, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
> <nuckollsr@cox.net>
>
> At 01:54 PM 9/3/2006 -0500, you wrote:
> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dave N6030X
> > <N6030X@DaveMorris.com>
> >
> >Bob,
> >
> >I have been doing a lot of reading lately, and somewhere I was
> > reading an article on RG batteries - now I cannot find it
> > anywhere - that said if your aircraft system is a generator
> > instead of an alternator, and if it is a 35A or less system, you
> > should not use an RG battery. I believe I remember the statement
> > came from a Concorde spokesperson.
> >
> >Do you know anything about such a limitation?
>
> I cannot imagine why . . . I'll be talking with Skip
> next week on other matters, I'll ask him if this is a
> bit of wisdom from Concorde. But as far as I can deduce,
> the technology of the engine driven power source is not
> linked to the suitability of RG vs. any other battery.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
> < the authority which determines whether there can be >
> < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
> < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
> < with experiment. >
> < --Lawrence M. Krauss >
> ---------------------------------------------------------
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: The alternator drive stand . . . |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Richard E. Tasker" <retasker@optonline.net>
FYI.
McMaster Carr has a 5HP 230V single phase for $350 and a 5HP three phase
(if you want to set up a phase converter with a new motor) for $230.
Dick Tasker
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
> <nuckollsr@cox.net>
>
> I took a short trip yesterday in 'ol blue (a truck I inherited from
> Dad) to take a look at the alternator drive stand I spoke of last
> week. What a magnificent machine! Motor controlled variable speed
> drive, well instrumented, self contained system simulator with
> batteries, really beefy carbon pile load. Minimal barn-bird-crap
> and rust. Best yet, mounted on casters.
>
> Now the down side . . . it's fitted with a 10 hp, 440v three-phase
> motor. I've been digging through the catalogs for reasonable
> replacements that will run from the electron-pipe that comes into
> my house.
>
> I think I've identified a 5 hp, 240v single phase with the right
> shaft diameter . . . and it's only $400 plus another $100 shipping.
> When you're talking this size of motor, they start getting HEAVY!
>
> I've made an agreement with the current owner to take over his
> project with the proviso that he has access to it as needed and
> that if I decide to get rid of it, he has first crack at it at
> the "brother-in-law" price. Sounds like a deal to me.
>
> I may well have this puppy up and running in my shop before
> the end of the year.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
> < the authority which determines whether there can be >
> < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
> < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
> < with experiment. >
> < --Lawrence M. Krauss >
> ---------------------------------------------------------
>
>
--
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that a significant number of electrons may have been temporarily inconvenienced.
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Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: The alternator drive stand . . . |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Hello Bob
I think point of my last post got lost. I was suggesting to forget about a
phase convertor all together and run your 10hp motor on single phase.
You did not answer if you need to start the 10HP motor with a load on it
(alternator)?
If not then why not run your 10hp motor on a single phase?
According to your article a 3 phase motor run on 1 phase should produce
2/3 rated capacity. That is 6 plus hp.
I am suggesting if 6 plus hp is an acceptable power, and you can start up
the 3 phase motor with little load (alternator not producing) then forget
about a roto phase converter all together, and just run your 10 hp motor
at 2/3 rated hp.
I suggested to try it with a rope pull for a test, if it works well, then
on your 10hp motor install a capacitor to phase shift on start up only.
No question that running a 10 hp motor on single phase and producing ~ 6
hp will not be the most efficient 6 hp single phase motor in the world.
I doubt the extra energy you will consume will have much a net monetary
loss.
This is a fairly simple test, get 220 single phase to your 10hp motor,
rope pull it and add the 220 power. You should have a 6hp motor. You
mention if it runs at all??? This is exact what a roto phase is, just
running a 3 phase motor on single phase. Now if you added another 10 hp
motor to the running one, the second one could start from dead and produce
more than 2/3 rated power, but if 6 hp is enough.....
Ron Parigoris
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