Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:36 AM - Re: List: Stick Transfer function (glen matejcek)
2. 05:37 AM - Re: Rotax 912S starter relay diode (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
3. 05:40 AM - Re: Lap solder or D-Sub Pins (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 05:53 AM - Re: 500W Batt tester (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 06:02 AM - Re: Best wiring techniques to use? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 06:26 AM - Re: Eaton Starter Contactor Website (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 07:18 AM - Re: Whelen Strobes Blowing Fuses (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
8. 07:49 AM - Re: Whelen Strobes Blowing Fuses (Peter Braswell)
9. 08:53 AM - A Proud Announcement (EuropaXSA276@aol.com)
10. 09:25 AM - Re: A Proud Announcement (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
11. 10:40 AM - Z-13 Alternator and Pmag Question (drill_and_buck)
12. 10:53 AM - Need 0.3 amps at 28v from a 14v system (Matthew Brandes)
13. 11:46 AM - Re: Best wiring techniques to use? ()
14. 01:10 PM - Re: Rotax 912S starter relay diode (billmileski)
15. 02:09 PM - Re: Mogas versus 100LL (Mostly Off Topic) (Jerry2DT@aol.com)
16. 02:09 PM - Re: Mogas versus 100LL (Mostly Off Topic) (Jerry2DT@aol.com)
17. 02:52 PM - Re: Re: Mogas versus 100LL (Mostly Off Topic) (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
18. 03:10 PM - Re: A Proud Announcement (A DeMarzo)
19. 03:49 PM - Re: Re: Mogas versus 100LL (Mostly Off Topic) (6440 Auto Parts)
20. 06:37 PM - Re: Whelen Strobes Blowing Fuses (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
21. 06:53 PM - Re: Whelen Strobes Blowing Fuses (Peter Braswell)
22. 07:04 PM - Grounding (Dennis Johnson)
23. 08:55 PM - battery cables (bob noffs)
24. 09:13 PM - Re: battery cables (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
Message 1
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| Subject: | RE: List: Stick Transfer function |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "glen matejcek" <aerobubba@earthlink.net>
Hi Mark-
>Next question. I am investigating how to swap all stick switch functions
>from L to R (Infinity grip) by some reliable, safe means. About 8 wires
minimum
>
>(4-way trim, CWS, PTT, gnd). I would prefer a simple switch as opposed to
>using relays (4PDTx2) but I'm beginning to think there is no source for an
8PDT
>switch.
>
>Any suggestions or am I barking up the wrong tree and there's a simpler
way
>to do this?
>
>THANKS!
>Mark Phillips
I've got similar objectives and somewhat different circumstances, as I've
got MAC/RAC trim equipment in an RV-8. I believe that all the equipment
functions the same though, IE they operate by switching to ground. I tried
to come up with a practical, reliable way to avoid using the MAC/RAC trim
relay$ to integrate the control functions of two sticks, but failed. They
are just too perfect for the job of controlling one servo with two sets of
control switches.
The other issues I was concerned with were trim system failure leading to a
trim runaway, and inappropriate operating of the switches in the back seat.
This was addressed rather handily with one progressive DPDT switch near the
throttle quadrant. The way my system is configured, my fwd PTT goes to
ground uninterrupted. The ground for the fwd stick trim controls goes to
one set of contacts on the switch, and the ground for all the rear stick
functions goes to the other set of contacts on the same switch.
The result is that when the progressive switch is in the up position, all
functions are operative. In the center position, the rear stick is inop
and the front is fully functional. In the down position the fwd stick trim
functions, in addition to all the rear stick functions, are inop. This
leaves the fwd stick PTT, A/P DISC, and EFIS engine page call up/dismiss
functions available.
FWIW-
BTW, what is CWS? Surely it's not Control Wheel Steering, is it? Or did
you get a deal on surplus Boeing parts ; - )
glen matejcek
aerobubba@earthlink.net
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912S starter relay diode |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 12:30 PM 9/27/2006 -0700, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "billmileski" <mileski@sonalysts.com>
>
>Hi,
>
>Does anyone know if the Rotax 912 series starter relay has a built-in
>shunt diode?
Don't know. If you've got access to a 'scope, it's
easy to find out. Even easier to add a diode just for
grins. Two diodes doesn't hurt a thing, no diodes
is hard on starter switches.
>I am considering adding a diode across my starter switch,
Not across the switch, across the contactor coil. See
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/spikecatcher.pdf
> . . . but then I came across an application note from Tyco, regarding
shunt diodes across their relays. Apparently a zener in series >with a
diode is better, to allow the relay to develop some EMF, otherwise the
opening dynamics can be somewhat thwarted. If so, the starter >relay can
actually be more likely to fail to open, and/or life can be
shortened. Interesting read
at >http://relays.tycoelectronics.com/appnotes/app_pdfs/13c3264.pdf
This document is an excellent example of poor decisions
made on poor science. The title: "Coil Suppression Can
Reduce Relay Life" certainly gets your attention. The
writer goes to some effort to explain how coil suppression
can have a profound effect on RELAY RELEASE TIME which
is easy to demonstrate and explain. Then in the last
5 paragraphs on page one, launches into some assertions
about the effects of a slowed decay of the magnetic field
on contact separation speeds but no demonstrations or
even a mathematical modeling of the event to support
the assertions.
This discussion came up on the List some months ago.
I've excerpted portions of that discussion below:
-------------------------
>Coil Suppression:
>
>MOVs are considered to be better than diodes, although they have higher
>impedance. But MOVs typically have a limited lifetime.
The lifetime issue controls when the MOV is stressed
repeatedly to its maximum rated energy levels . . . in
coil spike suppression, the energies are tiny by comparison
and life-limits do not become an issue.
>Diodes are not the best method today. Not even the second-, third-, or
>fourth- best method. But in the 1960's they were the way to go.
<snip>
Measurements on my bench have failed to demonstrate
the suggestion.
A number of papers have been cited over the years, some
written by some folks who work for big name companies
like Tyco-Amp, Teledyne, etc. wherein authors have suggested
that the readily observable effects of plain diodes on
opening delay (no big deal in 99.99% of applications)
directly translates to slower contact spreading velocity
(extended arcing during contact break).
Two separate conditions are in play. (1) slower rate
of decay in the relay or contactor's coil current and (2)
rate of decay in the magnetic attraction force as the
moveable armature begins to separate from its seated
position within the device. The diode has a profound
effect on (1) but a small effect on (2).
Most of the papers I've read accurately observed
and discussed (1) and even did some measurements but
then went on to improperly assume that similar effects
would be noted for (2) as well.
The trace at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/704-1DelayNoDiode.gif
Shows contact OPENING DELAY of an S704-1 plastic high
current relay when no diode was present across the coil
and the coil current was being interrupted by the "perfect
switch". Note the expected coil spike on channel 2 and the
opening delay of about 2.5 mS. You can see the
arcing across spreading contacts if you look carefully
at the falling trace on channel 1.
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/704-1DelayWithDiode.gif
This trace shows what happens when we use the plain-vanilla
diode across the coil. Yes, OPENING DELAY goes up by a factor
of 500% to about 12.5 mS.
Now, let's go take a close look at the arcing phenomenon noted
in the two traces above . . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/704-1OpeningTimeNoDiode.gif
. . . with no diode, a series of about 10 measurements produced
an opening time (ARC DURATION) that averaged 210 uS. In the
next trace . . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/704-1OpeningTimeWithDiode.gif
. . . the diode was put back on and we see an average of
230 uS ARC DURATION for an increase of about 10%
I did similar experiments with other relays and did not
formalize the data gathering but got similar results.
Bottom line is that the use of the lowly diode for coil
spike suppression does not deserve relegation to the dust
bins of electronic history as a 5th-rate spike suppression
technique. Unfortunately, some big names working for big
companies have stubbed their toes on significant but error
driven assumptions.
The repeatable experiment has demonstrated otherwise.
Continued use of diodes as suggested in the 'Connection
and on many drawings posted to the website is not a
recipe for failure. Substitution of a more "modern"
technique will produce no observable effect on the
service life of your relays and contactors.
------------------------
Demonstrable differences for contact spreading velocity
and potential to arc for diodes versus any other choice
are tiny. Relay and switch lives in industrial parlance
is stated in the tens of thousands of cycles. There are
few switches and relays in our airplanes that will get even
1,000 cycles in the lifetime of the airplane. Nonetheless,
we suffer significant switch and contactor failures . . .
mostly for environmental stresses over long periods of time . . .
commonly known as old age.
There's nothing inherently BAD about coil suppression
techniques other than plain diodes but nothing overwhelmingly
good about them either.
Bottom line is use what ever technique suits your fancy
but don't discount the lowly diode based on the assertions
of folks who demonstrate one effect and then extrapolate
a second effect without supporting data. Further, be
especially wary of papers like the one cited above where
prestige of either people or the companies they work for
is the motivating force to do or not to do any particular
thing.
I've sat across the table many times with folks from
big name companies attempting to deduce root cause of
failures for their products on our products. When the
problem is finally solved, it's all too often that we
end up knowing more about the supplier's product than
they do.
Bob . . .
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Lap solder or D-Sub Pins |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 09:22 PM 9/27/2006 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Emrath" <emrath@comcast.net>
>
>Thanks Bob, Just the encouragement I needed to go "experimenting" by cutting
>off the existin connectors and getting the soldering iron going.
>Marty
I think you mentioned K wire in your original posting. You'll need
the mini-torch and silver solder for those. But if you cut the
existing connectors off, then replacing them with crimped-on terminals
will get rid of the excess wire and replace the connectors with
as good or better than supplied from the factory.
Bob . . .
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: 500W Batt tester |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 07:35 AM 9/25/2006 -0700, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Christopher Stone
><rv8iator@earthlink.net>
>
>Bob et al..
>
>FYI
>
>West Mountain Radio has a new CBA (computerized battery tester) capable of
>loading to 500 watts. It doesn't appear on the website yet, but they are
>advertising it in the model press. I have been using their CBA II (150W)
>for the past year+ and have found it the best tool available for
>generating battery discharge curves and managing the health of
>rechargeable batterys.
>
>A 500 watt capable analyzer would allow simulation of battery out and/or
>alternator out scenarios as well as full load testing of 40 amp
>alternators. Plus much more!
>
>I am in no way affiliated with the manufacture, sale or distribution of
>this product. I am just a very satisfied end user.
>
>Chris Stone
I agree on the CBAII . . . I've got two of them!
I've 'bugged' them from time to time about the output
format of their software and even offered to do an
"engineers version" to share with them if they'd give
us the USB communications protocols for the CBAII but
so far, no bites.
However, they do offer comma de-limited export capability
that I've been able to use to great advantage. It's
a great tool for the money.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Best wiring techniques to use? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 11:19 PM 9/24/2006 +0000, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
>
>Need a bit of help to determine best wiring techniques to use.
>
>This is for a Europa XS/Rotax 914 and B+C SD20S/LR3C, start point for
>schematic was Z13/8.
>
>Battery is 10 feet behind motor, Flaming River mechanical battery cut off
>switch 3 feet ahead of battery aft side of passenger headrest.
>http://www.flamingriver.com/index.cfm?ptype=article&article_id=22
>
>1) I am looking to use #4 MIL-W-22759/16 Tefzel wire for battery and
>ground. There will be approx a 3 foot run of unprotected wire to the
>battery cut off switch. Is there any extra protection that would be
>prudent to incorporate?
No
>Some sort of robust sleeve on 1 wire, or a fusible
>link? Or just not worry about it (not run too close near anything that
>conducts)? I have the heavy duty Rotax starter, supposedly draws less amps
>than old style, old style starter draw was I think 60 amps, not sure what
>momentary is.
It's a plastic airplane . . . don't worry about it.
>2) I need to somehow get power and ground to 2 fuel pumps, wingtip
>Strobe/Position LEDs and pitch servo. The headrest is approx 6 feet closer
>to the battery (14 foot round trip) compared to the firewall mounted
>ground and main bus. If I put a mini power and ground bus in or near the
>headrest, would I be negating the concept of single point ground? Would
>stealing power from the NO side of the battery cut off likely cause any
>noise or other problems? Or just make extra runs from firewall?
Minimize the numbers of busses. Run from the firewall.
>3) Would it be advisable to series the battery cut off with the negative
>or positive? Reason? I don't have any science to back this up, but I read
>that when making model electric aeroplane battery packs, if you need to
>make one lead longer than the other, make the negative longer than the
>positive, it can help with black wire disease (what I have always done)??
>Overall scheme, plenty more time will be spent with battery cutoff opened.
Either way.
>4) I will need to somehow break into the #4 battery wire not going to the
>battery cut off switch. Instead of cutting the wire and putting on a lug
>on each side, and screwing them back together along with an additional #10
>wire ring, could I carefully strip, lets say an inch of insulation off the
>#4, and strip 3" off the #10, then strip back the #10 to 1" except for 2
>strands, then wrap the 2 strands over the 1" of #4 and 1" of #10 and
>solder/heat shrink? I would use the adhesive lined heat shrink.
That will cause some folks to roll their eyes back and
mumble unkind things about you . . . but there's nothing
wrong with the physics or failure modes and is probably
a more reliable joint (low parts count, no threaded fasteners).
>5) What is good practice to follow, the number of lugs I can stack on the
>NO side of the battery cutoff switch stud?
Depends on stud length. You need to see one full thread
on the OFF-side of the nut when the joint is finished.
>6) I forget the exact diameter of the NO side of the battery cutoff switch
>stud, lets say it is 5/16". If lets say I wanted to stack a #4 and a
>#10,is it acceptable to stack a ring terminal that has a smaller footprint
>on top of one with a larger footprint? Or in this instance because loss of
>this connection can cause loss of main and e-bus, use the same size lug,
>make a brass insert and crimp/solder in the smaller wire?
At the current levels you're dealing with, surface areas are
not going to be an issue so much as joint make-up forces. Torque
the nut down to about 1/2 the value recommended for steel of
the same size/thread.
>7) The Flaming River switch has copper threaded studs, came with a brass
>nut and brass lock-washer. Would it be advisable to use a Phosphor bronze
>star washer instead of the brass lock-washer?
If the lockwasher is the typical automotive split-ring
variety, pitch it an forget it. If it's an internal toothed
lockwasher, leave it in the makeup of the joint but if you're
running out of stud length, leave it off and use some non-
permanent locking guckum on the nut. E-6000 adhesive works
nice. It extrudes out of the hi-pressure contact areas between
threads and nut but keeps the nut secure for vibration induced
loosening. Finally, not so strong a grip as to keep the nut
from being removed.
Bob . . .
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Eaton Starter Contactor Website |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 12:49 AM 9/24/2006 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <jlundberg@cox.net>
>
>Does anyone know the website for the Eaton Starter contactors??. I need
>one for a Lyc IO-540.
>
>Thanks
The catalog sheet for Eaton-CH 6041 series contactors can
be found at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Contactors/Eaton_CH/6041SeriesPowerRelays.pdf
Few folks stock these things. I used to get them through Carlton-Bates
in Little Rock, AR.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
Message 7
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| Subject: | Whelen Strobes Blowing Fuses |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 09:28 PM 9/12/2006 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Peter Braswell"
><pbraswell@alterthought.com>
>
>Bob,
>Easy enough to do! I'll give it a whirl and see what happens. And to
>answer your question, yes the strobe work fine when it is working.
>
>Thanks!
>Peter
Peter, what have you discovered since we last talked
about the blowing fuse problem?
Bob . . .
Message 8
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| Subject: | Whelen Strobes Blowing Fuses |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Peter Braswell" <pbraswell@alterthought.com>
Hey Bob! Thanks for wanting the follow up!
I went flying the other night with a 15amp fuse as per your recommendation.
Prior to blasting off, I cycled the strobes a few times with no problems.
When I got back down the strobes were still flashing so I think that got it!
And can I say how GREAT it is to have a flying airplane!!!?? I flew until
the sun was just dipping below the horizon. The night was dead calm and my
home airport is a great little 3200' foot sod strip. All that (and the
flashing strobes) made for a very picturesque approach and landing!!!
Doesn't get much better than that!
Thanks!
Peter
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 10:17 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Whelen Strobes Blowing Fuses
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
--> <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 09:28 PM 9/12/2006 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Peter Braswell"
><pbraswell@alterthought.com>
>
>Bob,
>Easy enough to do! I'll give it a whirl and see what happens. And to
>answer your question, yes the strobe work fine when it is working.
>
>Thanks!
>Peter
Peter, what have you discovered since we last talked
about the blowing fuse problem?
Bob . . .
Message 9
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| Subject: | A Proud Announcement |
On Wednesday, September 27, 2006 my son Brennan J. Skelly took his first sol
o
flight. The flight took place at 10:45 Central time at Grand Prairie
Municipal Airport located in Grand Prairie Texas USA. The sky was a pristin
e blue
and the winds were light and variable.
After a written examination and a few test runs, Brennan's instructor
released him for solo. Brennan flew the pattern and made 2 perfect landings
and =9Cone
like his dad makes=9D. (Whatever that is supposed to mean!!)
Brennan is age 19. He currently attends a local college and in 2007 he will
transfer to North Dakota University to attend the Federal Aviation
Administration Air Traffic Controller program. He works part time at Grand
Prairie
Municipal Airport with the very important duty of fueling the general aviati
on
fleet. He is also certified to =9CHot Fuel=9D the emergency hel
icopters that are
based at that location. In his off times he enjoys working in the shop with
his
father on the Europa XS project.
Brennan represents the third generation of pilots for the Skelly family. Upo
n
completion of his flight he notified his 90 year old Grandfather James E.
Skelly, who proudly flew in the European theater of W.W.II and later became
a
military flight instructor.
Way to go son! Your father is very proud.
Brian Skelly
Europa XS TriGear #A276
North Texas USA
You can see my build photos at:
http://www.europaowners.org/BrianS
Message 10
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| Subject: | A Proud Announcement |
Ahh yes a very proud moment indeed.
Very well done!
Frank
Zenair Zodiac 400hours
Rv7a 22 hours
________________________________
Brennan represents the third generation of pilots for the Skelly family.
Upon completion of his flight he notified his 90 year old Grandfather
James E. Skelly, who proudly flew in the European theater of W.W.II and
later became a military flight instructor.
Way to go son! Your father is very proud.
Brian Skelly
Europa XS TriGear #A276
North Texas USA
You can see my build photos at:
http://www.europaowners.org/BrianS
Message 11
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| Subject: | Z-13 Alternator and Pmag Question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "drill_and_buck" <mdraper@nww.com>
I am using Z-13 as a baseline to design my electrical system for my RV-8. I have
read the Aeroelectric book and attended one of Bob's weekend seminars, but
haven't yet quite grasped all the concepts.
I would appreciate it if someone could help me better understand the rationale
behind the alternator field circuit. In particular..
1. What is the rationale behind using a fuselink AND a 5A breaker on the alternator
field circuit? Wouldn't the breaker eliminate the need for a fuselink?
2. If the fuselink is optional, would it be practical to just use a 5A fuse rather
than a breaker?
On the P-Mag (self powered mag) circuit...
1. What is the benefit of wiring the P-Mags to the battery buss. Why not just
wire the P-Mags to the main power bus.
Thanks in advance for your replies..
Mike Draper
RV-8
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=64522#64522
Message 12
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| Subject: | Need 0.3 amps at 28v from a 14v system |
I have a KLN-89B, KX-155 and 209A indicator. I'd like to install the
MidContinent GPS Annunciator to use but the 14 versions of these are scarce
on the used market and both the new/used ones are pricey! I see 28v units
all the time and they are a lot less.
Is there a simple easy solution to power this 28v unit that draws 0.30amps
from a 14v bus? I search through the archives and didn't find much.
Matthew
N523RV :: RV-9A :: 115 hours
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Best wiring techniques to use? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Hello Bob
"Need a bit of help to determine best wiring techniques to use."
Much appreciate your input.
Sincerely
Ron Parigoris
Do not archive
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912S starter relay diode |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "billmileski" <mileski@sonalysts.com>
Thanks for the info, and the pdf reminding me that what I really wanted was a diode
across the coil, not the switch. And I'll use a scope as you suggested if
no protection seems to be already in place.
Regards,
Bill
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=64550#64550
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Mogas versus 100LL (Mostly Off Topic) |
Excellent article on Ethanol in current Consumer Reports. A couple things
for sure are that Ethanol has 30% less BTU's than Gasoline 125k btu/gal vs.
84.4), thereby translating to 32% less mileage per gal. Ethanol is cleaner,
which I guess is why it is mandated in some parts. I track my car gas mileage
very closely and get 8% less mpg when using a mix. The math doesn't come out
quite right with the btu's, but it is a fact, at least for my car. It is alleged
that Ethanol rots some seals, gaskets. My 1996 Honda motorcycle specifically
disallows it's use. There is no way I'll ever use a mix of gas/ethanol in my
aircraft. Superior also bans Ethanol btw, although encourages use of premium
mogas for their XP360's...
FWIW, .02, etc.
Jerry Cochran
From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)"
<frank.hinde@hp.com>
Indeed yes are...but do you measure the RVP before you use it?...Even if
the RVP is a little high you can ajust your flying to suit.
As a bit of an aside I probably wouldn't store mogas for 6 months before
using it.
More of a question is wat if ethanol appears in the mix...i have an
invite to phone Todd at Peterson for the low down on why not to use
Ethanol...I'm not convinced on that one...at least not yet.
More to come
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Mogas versus 100LL (Mostly Off Topic) |
Excellent article on Ethanol in current Consumer Reports. A couple things
for sure are that Ethanol has 30% less BTU's than Gasoline 125k btu/gal vs.
84.4), thereby translating to 32% less mileage per gal. Ethanol is cleaner,
which I guess is why it is mandated in some parts. I track my car gas mileage
very closely and get 8% less mpg when using a mix. The math doesn't come out
quite right with the btu's, but it is a fact, at least for my car. It is alleged
that Ethanol rots some seals, gaskets. My 1996 Honda motorcycle specifically
disallows it's use. There is no way I'll ever use a mix of gas/ethanol in my
aircraft. Superior also bans Ethanol btw, although encourages use of premium
mogas for their XP360's...
FWIW, .02, etc.
Jerry Cochran
From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)"
<frank.hinde@hp.com>
Indeed yes are...but do you measure the RVP before you use it?...Even if
the RVP is a little high you can ajust your flying to suit.
As a bit of an aside I probably wouldn't store mogas for 6 months before
using it.
More of a question is wat if ethanol appears in the mix...i have an
invite to phone Todd at Peterson for the low down on why not to use
Ethanol...I'm not convinced on that one...at least not yet.
More to come
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Mogas versus 100LL (Mostly Off Topic) |
When i spoke to Superior they stated Vapour lock as the issue with
ethanol mix...But when i asked if they really meant vapour lock or
simply boiling of fuel in the injector lines ...Which is not vapour lock
I did not get an answer. Secondly with my Airflow Performance system it
can run on 100% ethanol if you so desire.
I have high regard for Superior, don't get me wrong but there are MANY
OWTs out there that one is forced to question. ECI states lead being a
lubricant for valve seats as Gospel for example...I don't buy it
because, 1 it sounds ridiculous and 2 there is more and more evidence to
the contrary. Now in order to preserve the warranty (if there really is
one) ECI demand that you use 100LL duting break in...OK for sure i will
only start feeding in mogas after 25 hours or so...Not worth the risk.
Soo..if you have a properly designed fuel system (my pumps are in the
wingroots) I'm having a hard time understanding the objection to ethanol
mixes...Apart from the fact we're getting short changed (lower grade
fuel)to support our totally excessive farm production of course...:)
Now it maybe the injector line boiling is so bad it s difficult to get
the engine to run smooth...Definatly a possibility.
I will phone Todd Peterson next week who has offered to fill me in
(metaphorically speaking) on why ehtanol in mogas is a really bad
thing....Not saying that he will be incorrect, just I don't understand
why not at the moment.
Frank
Another 5 hours and i start filling gas cans...Non ethanol...for now..:)
________________________________
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Jerry2DT@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 2:05 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Mogas versus 100LL (Mostly Off Topic)
Excellent article on Ethanol in current Consumer Reports. A couple
things for sure are that Ethanol has 30% less BTU's than Gasoline 125k
btu/gal vs. 84.4), thereby translating to 32% less mileage per gal.
Ethanol is cleaner, which I guess is why it is mandated in some parts. I
track my car gas mileage very closely and get 8% less mpg when using a
mix. The math doesn't come out quite right with the btu's, but it is a
fact, at least for my car. It is alleged that Ethanol rots some seals,
gaskets. My 1996 Honda motorcycle specifically disallows it's use. There
is no way I'll ever use a mix of gas/ethanol in my aircraft. Superior
also bans Ethanol btw, although encourages use of premium mogas for
their XP360's...
FWIW, .02, etc.
Jerry Cochran
From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George
(Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Indeed yes are...but do you measure the RVP before you use
it?...Even if
the RVP is a little high you can ajust your flying to suit.
As a bit of an aside I probably wouldn't store mogas for 6
months before
using it.
More of a question is wat if ethanol appears in the mix...i have
an
invite to phone Todd at Peterson for the low down on why not to
use
Ethanol...I'm not convinced on that one...at least not yet.
More to come
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: A Proud Announcement |
Well done! Congrats!
On 09/28/2006 10:49:13 AM, europaxsa276@aol.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 27, 2006 my son Brennan J. Skelly took his
first
> solo flight. The flight took place at 10:45 Central time at Grand
Prairie
> Municipal Airport located in Grand Prairie Texas USA. The sky was a
> pristine blue and the winds were light and variable.
>
> After a written examination and a few test runs, Brennan's instructor
released him for solo. Brennan flew the pattern and made 2 perfect
landings and "one like his dad makes". (Whatever that is supposed to
mean!!)
>
> Brennan is age 19. He currently attends a local college and in 2007 he
will transfer to North Dakota University to attend the Federal Aviation
Administration Air Traffic Controller program. He works part time at
Grand Prairie Municipal Airport with the very important duty of fueling
the general aviation fleet. He is also certified to "Hot Fuel" the
emergency helicopters that are based at that location. In his off times
he enjoys working in the shop with his father on the Europa XS project.
>
> Brennan represents the third generation of pilots for the Skelly
family. Upon completion of his flight he notified his 90 year old
Grandfather James E. Skelly, who proudly flew in the European theater of
W.W.II and later became a military flight instructor.
>
> Way to go son! Your father is very proud.
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Mogas versus 100LL (Mostly Off Topic) |
Frank did you go to an AFS seminar ? If so was it worth it ? If not
where did you get the info that their system will run 100% ethanol ? I
have'nt found much real info on their website.
Randy
----- Original Message -----
From: Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)
To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 4:48 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Mogas versus 100LL (Mostly Off
Topic)
When i spoke to Superior they stated Vapour lock as the issue with
ethanol mix...But when i asked if they really meant vapour lock or
simply boiling of fuel in the injector lines ...Which is not vapour lock
I did not get an answer. Secondly with my Airflow Performance system it
can run on 100% ethanol if you so desire.
I have high regard for Superior, don't get me wrong but there are MANY
OWTs out there that one is forced to question. ECI states lead being a
lubricant for valve seats as Gospel for example...I don't buy it
because, 1 it sounds ridiculous and 2 there is more and more evidence to
the contrary. Now in order to preserve the warranty (if there really is
one) ECI demand that you use 100LL duting break in...OK for sure i will
only start feeding in mogas after 25 hours or so...Not worth the risk.
Soo..if you have a properly designed fuel system (my pumps are in the
wingroots) I'm having a hard time understanding the objection to ethanol
mixes...Apart from the fact we're getting short changed (lower grade
fuel)to support our totally excessive farm production of course...:)
Now it maybe the injector line boiling is so bad it s difficult to get
the engine to run smooth...Definatly a possibility.
I will phone Todd Peterson next week who has offered to fill me in
(metaphorically speaking) on why ehtanol in mogas is a really bad
thing....Not saying that he will be incorrect, just I don't understand
why not at the moment.
Frank
Another 5 hours and i start filling gas cans...Non ethanol...for
now..:)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Jerry2DT@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 2:05 PM
To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Mogas versus 100LL (Mostly Off Topic)
Excellent article on Ethanol in current Consumer Reports. A couple
things for sure are that Ethanol has 30% less BTU's than Gasoline 125k
btu/gal vs. 84.4), thereby translating to 32% less mileage per gal.
Ethanol is cleaner, which I guess is why it is mandated in some parts. I
track my car gas mileage very closely and get 8% less mpg when using a
mix. The math doesn't come out quite right with the btu's, but it is a
fact, at least for my car. It is alleged that Ethanol rots some seals,
gaskets. My 1996 Honda motorcycle specifically disallows it's use. There
is no way I'll ever use a mix of gas/ethanol in my aircraft. Superior
also bans Ethanol btw, although encourages use of premium mogas for
their XP360's...
FWIW, .02, etc.
Jerry Cochran
From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George
(Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Indeed yes are...but do you measure the RVP before you use
it?...Even if
the RVP is a little high you can ajust your flying to suit.
As a bit of an aside I probably wouldn't store mogas for 6 months
before
using it.
More of a question is wat if ethanol appears in the mix...i have an
invite to phone Todd at Peterson for the low down on why not to use
Ethanol...I'm not convinced on that one...at least not yet.
More to come
matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Message 20
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| Subject: | Whelen Strobes Blowing Fuses |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 10:43 AM 9/28/2006 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Peter Braswell"
><pbraswell@alterthought.com>
>
>
>Hey Bob! Thanks for wanting the follow up!
>
>I went flying the other night with a 15amp fuse as per your recommendation.
>Prior to blasting off, I cycled the strobes a few times with no problems.
>When I got back down the strobes were still flashing so I think that got it!
>
>And can I say how GREAT it is to have a flying airplane!!!?? I flew until
>the sun was just dipping below the horizon. The night was dead calm and my
>home airport is a great little 3200' foot sod strip. All that (and the
>flashing strobes) made for a very picturesque approach and landing!!!
>Doesn't get much better than that!
Okay, this experiment says that you're not suffering from
a hard fault but more likely an average energy (perhaps
punctuated with once-per-flash peak) draw that slowly
weakens the fuse. It would be REALLY cool to get some
current traces off your system.
You're okay with leaving the 15A fuse in place and
I wouldn't worry about up-sizing the wire. If you ever
come through Wichita, I'd love to put hook some
test equipment to your airplane.
Bob . . .
Message 21
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| Subject: | Whelen Strobes Blowing Fuses |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Peter Braswell" <pbraswell@alterthought.com>
Bob,
Thanks! You got it! I'll make it a point to stop should I get out that
far!
Peter
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 9:34 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Whelen Strobes Blowing Fuses
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
--> <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 10:43 AM 9/28/2006 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Peter Braswell"
><pbraswell@alterthought.com>
>
>
>Hey Bob! Thanks for wanting the follow up!
>
>I went flying the other night with a 15amp fuse as per your recommendation.
>Prior to blasting off, I cycled the strobes a few times with no problems.
>When I got back down the strobes were still flashing so I think that got
it!
>
>And can I say how GREAT it is to have a flying airplane!!!?? I flew
>until the sun was just dipping below the horizon. The night was dead
>calm and my home airport is a great little 3200' foot sod strip. All
>that (and the flashing strobes) made for a very picturesque approach and
landing!!!
>Doesn't get much better than that!
Okay, this experiment says that you're not suffering from
a hard fault but more likely an average energy (perhaps
punctuated with once-per-flash peak) draw that slowly
weakens the fuse. It would be REALLY cool to get some
current traces off your system.
You're okay with leaving the 15A fuse in place and
I wouldn't worry about up-sizing the wire. If you ever
come through Wichita, I'd love to put hook some
test equipment to your airplane.
Bob . . .
Message 22
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It's good that you're exercising the gray-matter on this
topic . . . know that taking all EIS grounds to either
forward or aft firewall grounds is an good move.
Hi Bob,
Thanks for the answer!
By the way, I love the Metcal soldering iron you recommended. I'm
soldering up high density 65 pin HD-Sub connectors today and need all
the help I can get.
Thanks,
Dennis Johnson
do not archive
Message 23
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hi all, i am starting the wiring of my plane with the battery cables.
from what i can get from bobs book i should keep the pos. and. neg.
cables from the battery together, especially thru the cabin area, until
they get firewall forward. then terminate the neg. at the crankcase with
a jumper cable from crankcase to the ground block on the firewall. have
i got this right? thanks in advance.
bob noffs
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: battery cables |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 10:52 PM 9/28/2006 -0500, you wrote:
>hi all, i am starting the wiring of my plane with the battery cables. from
>what i can get from bobs book i should keep the pos. and. neg. cables from
>the battery together, especially thru the cabin area, until they get
>firewall forward. then terminate the neg. at the crankcase with a jumper
>cable from crankcase to the ground block on the firewall. have i got this
>right? thanks in advance.
If you have a metal airplane, local grounding of the battery
IS an option. See:
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Battery_Grounds/Battery_Grounds.html
If you choose to bring battery (-) forward, then tie it
off on the firewall ground block thru bolt. Take a jumper
from the same bolt forward to the crankcase. This is
illustrated in Z-15, View A of:
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev11/AppZ_R11J.pdf
Bob . . .
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