AeroElectric-List Digest Archive

Fri 09/29/06


Total Messages Posted: 11



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 05:23 AM - Re: Re: List: Stick Transfer function (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
     2. 05:24 AM - Rotax 912 (phtoxo)
     3. 05:27 AM - battery cables & Relays (FLYaDIVE@aol.com)
     4. 07:35 AM - Re: battery cables & Relays (Dave N6030X)
     5. 08:35 AM - Re: Rotax 912 (billmileski)
     6. 10:06 AM - Re: Rotax 912 (Rodney Dunham)
     7. 10:36 AM - Re: battery cables & Relays (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     8. 10:48 AM - Re: battery cables & Relays (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     9. 01:52 PM - Re: battery cables & Relays (Jim Baker)
    10. 03:40 PM - Re: battery cables & Relays (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    11. 04:44 PM - Re: battery cables & Relays (FLYaDIVE@aol.com)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 05:23:34 AM PST US
    From: Fiveonepw@aol.com
    Subject: Re: RE: List: Stick Transfer function
    In a message dated 09/28/2006 7:39:59 AM Central Daylight Time, aerobubba@earthlink.net writes: BTW, what is CWS? Surely it's not Control Wheel Steering, is it? Or did you get a deal on surplus Boeing parts ; - ) >>>>> Thanks to all for feedback- TruTrak Digifilights do emply CWS (neat, huh?) among their many other features. Will likely go with stick switch ground select via DPDT detented toggle (trim gnd on one pole, everything else on other), which should be pretty intuitive with toggle mounted in center of panel horizontally, possibly with small LED indicators on each side of switch (TPDT) just for sihts&giglgzls. And thanks to Dave for reminder on PTT function as they are fought over via audio panel. You guys are the best- thanks again Matt and the A-list! Mark


    Message 2


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    Time: 05:24:12 AM PST US
    Subject: Rotax 912
    From: "phtoxo" <info@camper-world.de>
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "phtoxo" <info@camper-world.de> Rotax 912 Starter Circuit. On my homebuilt with Rotax 912 I would like to use 2 switches (2-5 type) for magneto's and starter function. How are these wired and shielded? Any feedback appreciated. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=64622#64622


    Message 3


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    Time: 05:27:51 AM PST US
    From: FLYaDIVE@aol.com
    Subject: battery cables & Relays
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com Bob & Gaggle: I took a look at the picture of the relay installation (see: http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Battery_Grounds/Battery_Grounds.html ) >From my experience I have found that the particular relay design being used has a failure point ESPECIALLY if installed in the position shown (Cap Side Down). The failure point is the rolled over edge. In the construction there is a rubber gasket between the cap and the can to keep the moisture out. But what happens is moisture collects in the area between the can and cap lips, rust occurs and that weakens the bond and moisture seeps its way around and past the rubber gasket. The failure is internal rust on the solenoid slug (sticking) and rust on the steel contact brackets (breaking off or bending away from contact). The two step CURE: 1 - Before installing the relay, seal that area. I did mine by dipping the entire relay in EPOXY Paint. Of course I masked off the terminals and any needed ground tap point. (Some relays use the case for Ground. The ones in the picture are four terminal type and uses one coil terminal as Ground. Others are three terminal type and use the case as Ground. 2 - Mount the relay so the Cap is facing UP. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - We are learning things everyday, I hope. And time is a great teacher. Unfortunately time is never recoverable and always long in happening. Time taught me this problem and also this cure. On the installation of the battery cables as described in the above web link, do the following: Install Internal Star Washers between the Ground Point and the washer and another Internal Star Washer between the Cable Lug and the top washer. Use a Conductive Grease, on the entire connection. Why all this? Because from my own experience and that of MANY auto shops Grounding to aluminum is a major conductive problem. Corrosion occurs and MANY ... MANY electrical problems can be traced to nothing more than a corroded Ground connection. >From here on I'm just elaborating so you don't have to read it. I recently had the following problems on a car: Engine would over heat when idling. Transmission would not shift. Cruse Control would not work. Battery would not charge. Alternator would not put out the required voltage. The CAUSE ... BAD GROUND on the ALUMINUM ENGINE BLOCK. CURE ... What I mentioned above with the Internal Star Washer. One connection ... All those problems. Barry "Chop'd Liver" "Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third time." Yamashiada


    Message 4


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    Time: 07:35:51 AM PST US
    From: Dave N6030X <N6030X@DaveMorris.com>
    Subject: Re: battery cables & Relays
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dave N6030X <N6030X@DaveMorris.com> Or maybe you could mount it at a slight angle so that any liquid will drain off, but you still maintain the resistance to having positive G-forces wanting to open the contacts, like this (look just below the battery): http://www.davemorris.com/Photos/Mooney%20N6030X%20Guts%20-%20Firewall%20Fwd/IMG_1799.jpg Dave Morris At 07:26 AM 9/29/2006, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com > >Bob & Gaggle: > >I took a look at the picture of the relay installation (see: >http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Battery_Grounds/Battery_Grounds.html ) > > >From my experience I have found that the particular relay design being used >has a failure point ESPECIALLY if installed in the position shown (Cap Side >Down). >The failure point is the rolled over edge. In the construction there is a >rubber gasket between the cap and the can to keep the moisture out. But what >happens is moisture collects in the area between the can and cap lips, rust >occurs and that weakens the bond and moisture seeps its way around >and past the >rubber gasket. The failure is internal rust on the solenoid slug >(sticking) and >rust on the steel contact brackets (breaking off or bending away >from contact). > >The two step CURE: > >1 - Before installing the relay, seal that area. I did mine by dipping the >entire relay in EPOXY Paint. Of course I masked off the terminals and any >needed ground tap point. (Some relays use the case for Ground. The >ones in the >picture are four terminal type and uses one coil terminal as >Ground. Others are >three terminal type and use the case as Ground. > >2 - Mount the relay so the Cap is facing UP. >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > >We are learning things everyday, I hope. And time is a great teacher. >Unfortunately time is never recoverable and always long in >happening. Time taught >me this problem and also this cure. >On the installation of the battery cables as described in the above web link, >do the following: >Install Internal Star Washers between the Ground Point and the washer and >another Internal Star Washer between the Cable Lug and the top washer. Use a >Conductive Grease, on the entire connection. >Why all this? Because from my own experience and that of MANY auto shops >Grounding to aluminum is a major conductive problem. Corrosion >occurs and MANY >... MANY electrical problems can be traced to nothing more than a corroded >Ground connection. > >From here on I'm just elaborating so you don't have to read it. >I recently had the following problems on a car: >Engine would over heat when idling. >Transmission would not shift. >Cruse Control would not work. >Battery would not charge. >Alternator would not put out the required voltage. > >The CAUSE ... BAD GROUND on the ALUMINUM ENGINE BLOCK. >CURE ... What I mentioned above with the Internal Star Washer. > >One connection ... All those problems. > > >Barry >"Chop'd Liver" > >"Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third >time." >Yamashiada >


    Message 5


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    Time: 08:35:24 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Rotax 912
    From: "billmileski" <mileski@sonalysts.com>
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "billmileski" <mileski@sonalysts.com> The link below is to an online copy of the 912S installation manual. See page 17-1 for diagram and discussion of ignition and starter circuit wiring. A copy for the 80hp 912 is also on this site if needed. http://www.rotax-aircraft-engines.com/pdf/dokus/d02394.pdf Bill Mileski Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=64660#64660


    Message 6


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    Time: 10:06:02 AM PST US
    From: "Rodney Dunham" <rdunhamtn@hotmail.com>
    Subject: Rotax 912
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rodney Dunham" <rdunhamtn@hotmail.com> phtoxo, The wiring scheme you're looking for is depicted in the Z drawings in Bob's book, the Aeroelectric Connection. I wired my 912 using 2 S700-1-3's and a starter push button switch. That way, I can crank the starter with both "mags" grounded. This is very handy for oil changes and other maintainance activities that call for the engine to be turned over without risk of starting. Can you do that with the 2-5's? 'Cause, I've always thought that would be a slick way to foil an attempted theft. The bogey man wouldn't know how to start your plane :O) Rodney in Tennessee Unabashed Nuckollhead


    Message 7


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    Time: 10:36:53 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: battery cables & Relays
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net> At 08:26 AM 9/29/2006 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com > >Bob & Gaggle: > >I took a look at the picture of the relay installation (see: >http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Battery_Grounds/Battery_Grounds.html ) > > >From my experience I have found that the particular relay design being used >has a failure point ESPECIALLY if installed in the position shown (Cap Side >Down). >The failure point is the rolled over edge. In the construction there is a >rubber gasket between the cap and the can to keep the moisture out. But what >happens is moisture collects in the area between the can and cap lips, rust >occurs and that weakens the bond and moisture seeps its way around and >past the >rubber gasket. The failure is internal rust on the solenoid slug >(sticking) and >rust on the steel contact brackets (breaking off or bending away from >contact). > >The two step CURE: > >1 - Before installing the relay, seal that area. I did mine by dipping the >entire relay in EPOXY Paint. Of course I masked off the terminals and any >needed ground tap point. (Some relays use the case for Ground. The ones >in the >picture are four terminal type and uses one coil terminal as >Ground. Others are >three terminal type and use the case as Ground. This style of contactor is not, as you have observed, suitable for situations where it's likely to be splashed or dripped on. Cessna went through the "lets seal it up" routine back in early 80s when the new floating cowl would allow rainwater to run down the front of the firewall. They tried several techniques to "seal" these devices with mixed success. In many cases, attempts to seal only make matters worse. Consider an airplane sitting out on the ramp on a warm sunny day. A little shower comes by and sprinkles the "sealed" relay with cool water. The pressure inside the container goes down due to cooling and water is sucked into the enclosure through the tiniest hole (ukum-gukies applied to outside are NOT hermetic seals). Now, moisture that came in as liquid through the tiny hole has to escape through the same hole as a vapor under the influence of atmospheric pressure changes. The end result for many of Cessna's efforts was that some folks experienced fewer failures due to moisture, but some had more. Some years prior to the Cessna experience, I was head techowiennie for an amateur radio repeater club. We had a much coveted location on the 1200 foot platform of KTVH channel 12 over in Hutchinson KS. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Misc/KTVH.gif We gathered up donations totaling about $4000 to buy a band new Motorola Micore repeater. Great radio, great location, longest legged repeater in Kansas. Every time it rained, the repeater went off the air and took some time to recover. We started a series of attempts to keep moisture out of the cabinet and the harder we tried, the longer it took to go off the air . . . and longer to recover. Finally discovered that the best bet was to leave the cabinet well vented to atmosphere and install internal circulation fans and heaters. Repeater still went off the air but recovered very quickly when the storm passed. In the case of our el-cheeso contactors, the first consideration is keep the water off. If that's not practical, mount cap-down and drill generous drain holes in cap (be careful when the drill punches through). Somebody mentioned contactor orientation preferences to offset aerodynamic g-loading on contactor in flight. There's a great deal of hangar-myth circulating around out there about contactor compromise due to g-loads . . . all wrong. If there's a mounting preference, it will be for the purposes of letting the water drain out. Attempts to "seal" are problematic and exceedingly difficult to test. These contactors have been used since the mid-40's on all manner of vehicle and been shown to be of good value . . . but they're NOT sealed and excessive local moisture is likely to cause problems. Bob . . .


    Message 8


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    Time: 10:48:03 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: battery cables & Relays
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net> At 08:26 AM 9/29/2006 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com > >Bob & Gaggle: > >I took a look at the picture of the relay installation (see: >http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Battery_Grounds/Battery_Grounds.html ) > > >From my experience I have found that the particular relay design being used >has a failure point ESPECIALLY if installed in the position shown (Cap Side >Down). >The failure point is the rolled over edge. In the construction there is a >rubber gasket between the cap and the can to keep the moisture out. But what >happens is moisture collects in the area between the can and cap lips, rust >occurs and that weakens the bond and moisture seeps its way around and >past the >rubber gasket. The failure is internal rust on the solenoid slug >(sticking) and >rust on the steel contact brackets (breaking off or bending away from >contact). > >The two step CURE: > >1 - Before installing the relay, seal that area. I did mine by dipping the >entire relay in EPOXY Paint. Of course I masked off the terminals and any >needed ground tap point. (Some relays use the case for Ground. The ones >in the >picture are four terminal type and uses one coil terminal as >Ground. Others are >three terminal type and use the case as Ground. This style of contactor is not, as you have observed, suitable for situations where it's likely to be splashed or dripped on. Cessna went through the "lets seal it up" routine back in early 80s when the new floating cowl would allow rainwater to run down the front of the firewall. They tried several techniques to "seal" these devices with mixed success. In many cases, attempts to seal only make matters worse. Consider an airplane sitting out on the ramp on a warm sunny day. A little shower comes by and sprinkles the "sealed" relay with cool water. The pressure inside the container goes down due to cooling and water is sucked into the enclosure through the tiniest hole (ukum-gukies applied to outside are NOT hermetic seals). Now, moisture that came in as liquid through the tiny hole has to escape through the same hole as a vapor under the influence of atmospheric pressure changes. The end result for many of Cessna's efforts was that some folks experienced fewer failures due to moisture, but some had more. Some years prior to the Cessna experience, I was head techowiennie for an amateur radio repeater club. We had a much coveted location on the 1200 foot platform of KTVH channel 12 over in Hutchinson KS. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Misc/KTVH.gif We gathered up donations totaling about $4000 to buy a band new Motorola Micore repeater. Great radio, great location, longest legged repeater in Kansas. Every time it rained, the repeater went off the air and took some time to recover. We started a series of attempts to keep moisture out of the cabinet and the harder we tried, the longer it took to go off the air . . . and longer to recover. Finally discovered that the best bet was to leave the cabinet well vented to atmosphere and install internal circulation fans and heaters. Repeater still went off the air but recovered very quickly when the storm passed. In the case of our el-cheeso contactors, the first consideration is keep the water off. If that's not practical, mount cap-down and drill generous drain holes in cap (be careful when the drill punches through). Somebody mentioned contactor orientation preferences to offset aerodynamic g-loading on contactor in flight. There's a great deal of hangar-myth circulating around out there about contactor compromise due to g-loads . . . all wrong. If there's a mounting preference, it will be for the purposes of letting the water drain out. Attempts to "seal" are problematic and exceedingly difficult to test. These contactors have been used since the mid-40's on all manner of vehicle and been shown to be of good value . . . but they're NOT sealed and excessive local moisture is likely to cause problems. Bob . . .


    Message 9


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    Time: 01:52:56 PM PST US
    From: "Jim Baker" <jlbaker@msbit.net>
    Subject: Re: battery cables & Relays
    X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (4.41) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Baker" <jlbaker@msbit.net> > They tried several techniques to "seal" these devices > with mixed success. snip.... > (ukum-gukies applied to outside are NOT hermetic seals). Also known as encapsulation. Which leads to the question...and perhaps overkill for this issue...would full-blown potting be a possibility here? Assuming no detrimental outgassing from the potting material, just make some pigtail leads from the unit and pot the wires and connectors as well. Geeq, I just love making the simple absurd..... Jim Baker 580.788.2779 Elmore City, OK


    Message 10


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    Time: 03:40:49 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: battery cables & Relays
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net> At 03:49 PM 9/29/2006 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Baker" <jlbaker@msbit.net> > > > They tried several techniques to "seal" these devices > > with mixed success. >snip.... > > > (ukum-gukies applied to outside are NOT hermetic seals). > >Also known as encapsulation. > >Which leads to the question...and perhaps overkill for this >issue...would full-blown potting be a possibility here? Assuming >no detrimental outgassing from the potting material, just make >some pigtail leads from the unit and pot the wires and >connectors as well. > >Geeq, I just love making the simple absurd..... That's been done! Actually, the last time I saw that was on a piece of electronics that needed to run submerged to about 100' of water column. The tech found some thixotropic RTV and painted the assembly with several coats . . . with a vacuum pull on the last coat before it set up. The idea was that any opening allowing an outgas would bubble through and releasing the vacuum would suck RTV into the void. It looked like it ought to work. Makes 'em hard to repair! Bob . . .


    Message 11


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    Time: 04:44:23 PM PST US
    From: FLYaDIVE@aol.com
    Subject: Re: battery cables & Relays
    In a message dated 9/29/2006 4:57:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, jlbaker@msbit.net writes: > They tried several techniques to "seal" these devices > with mixed success. snip.... > (ukum-gukies applied to outside are NOT hermetic seals). Also known as encapsulation. Which leads to the question...and perhaps overkill for this issue...would full-blown potting be a possibility here? Assuming no detrimental outgassing from the potting material, just make some pigtail leads from the unit and pot the wires and connectors as well. Geeq, I just love making the simple absurd..... Jim Baker 580.788.2779 Elmore City, OK ======================================== Jim: I am a very firm believer in the K. I. S. S. M. E. principle. Sure potting is a possibility, but what kind of potting and will it adhere any closer or better to the unit than dipped epoxy paint? I doubt it! ONLY time will tell. I ... Let me repeat that ... I ... Not "They", I did the simple dipping of the relay in an epoxy paint over 9 years ago and have NOT had a single relay problem since. I am doing the testing and Of course, as I said, only TIME will tell. According to my log books the relay was replace once before. That means I am on the third relay in 33 years. Now, 33 divided 3 is a relay once every 11 years .... Well, ask me how it is doing in three more years. That will equal the previous data, but I'm going for the record and beat that data. So, Jim, keep making the simple absurd ... It keep the gray matter stimulated. Just don't believe the absurd. Barry "Chop'd Liver" "Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third time." Yamashiada




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