---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 09/30/06: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:35 AM - Re: battery cables & Relays (FLYaDIVE@aol.com) 2. 06:49 AM - Re: battery cables & Relays (Dave N6030X) 3. 10:38 AM - Re: Best wiring techniques to use? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 10:54 AM - Re: battery cables & Relays (Bob McCallum) 5. 11:19 AM - Re: Best wiring techniques to use? () 6. 12:27 PM - Re: Best wiring techniques to use? (OldBob Siegfried) 7. 01:23 PM - Re: Best wiring techniques to use? (Jim Baker) 8. 02:38 PM - Re: Best wiring techniques to use? (Bill Denton) 9. 03:09 PM - Re: Best wiring techniques to use? (OldBob Siegfried) 10. 03:13 PM - Re: Best wiring techniques to use? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 11. 03:16 PM - Re: battery cables & Relays (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 12. 04:17 PM - Re: battery cables & Relays (Dave N6030X) 13. 06:10 PM - Re: battery cables & Relays (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 14. 06:23 PM - Re: battery cables (bob noffs) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:35:59 AM PST US From: FLYaDIVE@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: battery cables & Relays --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com In a message dated 9/29/06 10:41:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, N6030X@DaveMorris.com writes: > Or maybe you could mount it at a slight angle so that any liquid will > drain off, but you still maintain the resistance to having positive > G-forces wanting to open the contacts, like this (look just below the > battery): > http://www.davemorris.com/Photos/Mooney%20N6030X%20Guts%20-%20Firewall%20Fwd/ > IMG_1799.jpg > > Dave Morris ============================= Yes, Dave, the mounting in that picture is very poor and in an exposed area to many of the elements. In that installation more than moisture ... Water ... Will collect. Mounting it CAP UP will eliminate the pooling of water and a little dipping action as I described will take care of the rest. As for the 'G' forces, well that idea has been kicked around so much it is like a month old hair ball. <--- I have no idea what that means. But it is really not an issue. Nothing we do in flying will approach a 'G' Force or duration that will pull the contacts apart. W E L L ... Maybe some of the landings I have seen ;-) But there again during that moment I don't think the person is looking for a flickering of the radios ... Well, maybe they were and that is why the hard landing? LoL Barry "Chop'd Liver" "Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third time." Yamashiada ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:49:46 AM PST US From: Dave N6030X Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: battery cables & Relays --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dave N6030X I thought the whole reason for mounting them upside down in the first place was the g-force issue. Otherwise, it just looks wrong to mount it with the hat down!! LOL! Dave At 05:33 AM 9/30/2006, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com > >In a message dated 9/29/06 10:41:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, >N6030X@DaveMorris.com writes: > > > Or maybe you could mount it at a slight angle so that any liquid will > > drain off, but you still maintain the resistance to having positive > > G-forces wanting to open the contacts, like this (look just below the > > battery): > > >http://www.davemorris.com/Photos/Mooney%20N6030X%20Guts%20-%20Firewall%20Fwd/ > > IMG_1799.jpg > > > > Dave Morris >============================= >Yes, Dave, the mounting in that picture is very poor and in an exposed area >to many of the elements. In that installation more than moisture >... Water ... >Will collect. Mounting it CAP UP will eliminate the pooling of water and a >little dipping action as I described will take care of the rest. > >As for the 'G' forces, well that idea has been kicked around so much it is >like a month old hair ball. <--- I have no idea what that means. >But it is really not an issue. Nothing we do in flying will approach a 'G' >Force or duration that will pull the contacts apart. >W E L L ... Maybe some of the landings I have seen ;-) But there again >during that moment I don't think the person is looking for a >flickering of the >radios ... Well, maybe they were and that is why the hard landing? >LoL > >Barry >"Chop'd Liver" > >"Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third >time." >Yamashiada > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:38:42 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Best wiring techniques to use? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 06:41 PM 9/28/2006 +0000, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: > >Hello Bob > >"Need a bit of help to determine best wiring techniques to use." > >Much appreciate your input. > >Sincerely >Ron Parigoris That's a REALLY broad question . . . something akin to "tell me what you know". If you can articulate more definitive concerns, I and many others here on the List will try to be of assitance. Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:54:30 AM PST US From: "Bob McCallum" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: battery cables & Relays --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bob McCallum" Dave; The "G" forces required to open a closed contactor are generally not survivable. (or at least very close to it). I don't have quantitative numbers, but I have tried pulling one open and the force required is VERY significant. Many, many times that required to close it. Bob McC ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave N6030X" > > I thought the whole reason for mounting them upside down in the first > place was the g-force issue. Otherwise, it just looks wrong to mount > it with the hat down!! LOL! > > Dave ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:19:06 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Best wiring techniques to use? From: --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Hello Bob Sorry for the confusion, I was thanking you for answering my 7 questions on 09-24-06. Sincerely Ron Parigoris Do Not Archive On Sat, Sep 30, 2006, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" said: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > At 06:41 PM 9/28/2006 +0000, you wrote: > >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: >> >>Hello Bob >> >>"Need a bit of help to determine best wiring techniques to use." >> >>Much appreciate your input. >> >>Sincerely >>Ron Parigoris > > That's a REALLY broad question . . . something akin to > "tell me what you know". If you can articulate more > definitive concerns, I and many others here on the List > will try to be of assitance. > > Bob . . . > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 11:19 PM 9/24/2006 +0000, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: > >Need a bit of help to determine best wiring techniques to use. > >This is for a Europa XS/Rotax 914 and B+C SD20S/LR3C, start point for >schematic was Z13/8. > >Battery is 10 feet behind motor, Flaming River mechanical battery cut off >switch 3 feet ahead of battery aft side of passenger headrest. >http://www.flamingriver.com/index.cfm?ptype=article&article_id=22 > >1) I am looking to use #4 MIL-W-22759/16 Tefzel wire for battery and >ground. There will be approx a 3 foot run of unprotected wire to the >battery cut off switch. Is there any extra protection that would be >prudent to incorporate? No >Some sort of robust sleeve on 1 wire, or a fusible >link? Or just not worry about it (not run too close near anything that >conducts)? I have the heavy duty Rotax starter, supposedly draws less amps >than old style, old style starter draw was I think 60 amps, not sure what >momentary is. It's a plastic airplane . . . don't worry about it. >2) I need to somehow get power and ground to 2 fuel pumps, wingtip >Strobe/Position LEDs and pitch servo. The headrest is approx 6 feet closer >to the battery (14 foot round trip) compared to the firewall mounted >ground and main bus. If I put a mini power and ground bus in or near the >headrest, would I be negating the concept of single point ground? Would >stealing power from the NO side of the battery cut off likely cause any >noise or other problems? Or just make extra runs from firewall? Minimize the numbers of busses. Run from the firewall. >3) Would it be advisable to series the battery cut off with the negative >or positive? Reason? I don't have any science to back this up, but I read >that when making model electric aeroplane battery packs, if you need to >make one lead longer than the other, make the negative longer than the >positive, it can help with black wire disease (what I have always done)?? >Overall scheme, plenty more time will be spent with battery cutoff opened. Either way. >4) I will need to somehow break into the #4 battery wire not going to the >battery cut off switch. Instead of cutting the wire and putting on a lug >on each side, and screwing them back together along with an additional #10 >wire ring, could I carefully strip, lets say an inch of insulation off the >#4, and strip 3" off the #10, then strip back the #10 to 1" except for 2 >strands, then wrap the 2 strands over the 1" of #4 and 1" of #10 and >solder/heat shrink? I would use the adhesive lined heat shrink. That will cause some folks to roll their eyes back and mumble unkind things about you . . . but there's nothing wrong with the physics or failure modes and is probably a more reliable joint (low parts count, no threaded fasteners). >5) What is good practice to follow, the number of lugs I can stack on the >NO side of the battery cutoff switch stud? Depends on stud length. You need to see one full thread on the OFF-side of the nut when the joint is finished. >6) I forget the exact diameter of the NO side of the battery cutoff switch >stud, lets say it is 5/16". If lets say I wanted to stack a #4 and a >#10,is it acceptable to stack a ring terminal that has a smaller footprint >on top of one with a larger footprint? Or in this instance because loss of >this connection can cause loss of main and e-bus, use the same size lug, >make a brass insert and crimp/solder in the smaller wire? At the current levels you're dealing with, surface areas are not going to be an issue so much as joint make-up forces. Torque the nut down to about 1/2 the value recommended for steel of the same size/thread. >7) The Flaming River switch has copper threaded studs, came with a brass >nut and brass lock-washer. Would it be advisable to use a Phosphor bronze >star washer instead of the brass lock-washer? If the lockwasher is the typical automotive split-ring variety, pitch it an forget it. If it's an internal toothed lockwasher, leave it in the makeup of the joint but if you're running out of stud length, leave it off and use some non- permanent locking guckum on the nut. E-6000 adhesive works nice. It extrudes out of the hi-pressure contact areas between threads and nut but keeps the nut secure for vibration induced loosening. Finally, not so strong a grip as to keep the nut from being removed. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:27:42 PM PST US From: OldBob Siegfried Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Best wiring techniques to use? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: OldBob Siegfried Good Afternoon All, I noted the reference to using a brass bolt as a firewall penetration point and ground. The particular reference is on Z-15, View A. That all sounds good to me! What I have not been able to find is a source for the proper brass bolt. The best I can find is McMaster-Carr. They list both brass and silicon bronze bolts, but only in the coarse thread versions. I rather thought it might be better to use a finer thread. Any thoughts? I had in mind a 3/8-24. All they list is 3/8-16. Is there a handy reference to the use of the brass bolt for the grounding function which would include any recommendations as to washers and nuts to be used with the brass bolt? Does anyone prefer a bronze bolt? What type locking mechanism is most commonly used? Any problem mixing up steel and brass? That is, could I use a brass or bronze bolt with a steel elastic stop nut? I am sure 'Lectric Bob has a shop note somewhere that will tell me all this, but my search (as inelegant as my searches are) has not yet located the guidance I desire. Any help greatly appreciated. Happy Skies, Old Bob Stearman N3977A ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:23:42 PM PST US From: "Jim Baker" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Best wiring techniques to use? X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (4.41) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Baker" > What I have not been able to find is a source for the > proper brass bolt. The best I can find is > McMaster-Carr. They list both brass and silicon bronze > bolts, but only in the coarse thread versions. I > rather thought it might be better to use a finer > thread. I don't see that fine thread is any more desireable than coarse in a conductivity sense. http://tinyurl.com/faxe8 Try these folks and take a look at threaded brass or bronze rod. Shoot, you can even get brass castle nuts here....; ) Jim Baker 580.788.2779 Elmore City, OK ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:38:59 PM PST US From: "Bill Denton" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Best wiring techniques to use? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Denton" Hey, Bob! I don't know if these guys will sell you just the bolt, but it couldn't hurt to ask... http://www.bandc.biz/GroundBlock.html -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of OldBob Siegfried Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 2:26 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Best wiring techniques to use? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: OldBob Siegfried Good Afternoon All, I noted the reference to using a brass bolt as a firewall penetration point and ground. The particular reference is on Z-15, View A. That all sounds good to me! What I have not been able to find is a source for the proper brass bolt. The best I can find is McMaster-Carr. They list both brass and silicon bronze bolts, but only in the coarse thread versions. I rather thought it might be better to use a finer thread. Any thoughts? I had in mind a 3/8-24. All they list is 3/8-16. Is there a handy reference to the use of the brass bolt for the grounding function which would include any recommendations as to washers and nuts to be used with the brass bolt? Does anyone prefer a bronze bolt? What type locking mechanism is most commonly used? Any problem mixing up steel and brass? That is, could I use a brass or bronze bolt with a steel elastic stop nut? I am sure 'Lectric Bob has a shop note somewhere that will tell me all this, but my search (as inelegant as my searches are) has not yet located the guidance I desire. Any help greatly appreciated. Happy Skies, Old Bob Stearman N3977A ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:09:17 PM PST US From: OldBob Siegfried Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Best wiring techniques to use? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: OldBob Siegfried Good Afternoon Bill, Thanks for the heads up. Just goes to show how poor my search efforts were. B&C was one of the places I looked before I asked the list! Happy Skies, Old Bob Do Not Archive --- Bill Denton wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill > Denton" > > Hey, Bob! > > I don't know if these guys will sell you just the > bolt, but it couldn't hurt > to ask... > > http://www.bandc.biz/GroundBlock.html > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On > Behalf Of OldBob > Siegfried > Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 2:26 PM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Best wiring > techniques to use? > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: OldBob > Siegfried > > > Good Afternoon All, > > I noted the reference to using a brass bolt as a > firewall penetration point and ground. The > particular > reference is on Z-15, View A. > > That all sounds good to me! > > What I have not been able to find is a source for > the > proper brass bolt. The best I can find is > McMaster-Carr. They list both brass and silicon > bronze > bolts, but only in the coarse thread versions. I > rather thought it might be better to use a finer > thread. > > Any thoughts? > > I had in mind a 3/8-24. All they list is 3/8-16. > > Is there a handy reference to the use of the brass > bolt for the grounding function which would include > any recommendations as to washers and nuts to be > used > with the brass bolt? > > Does anyone prefer a bronze bolt? > > What type locking mechanism is most commonly used? > Any > problem mixing up steel and brass? > > That is, could I use a brass or bronze bolt with a > steel elastic stop nut? > > I am sure 'Lectric Bob has a shop note somewhere > that > will tell me all this, but my search (as inelegant > as > my searches are) has not yet located the guidance I > desire. > > Any help greatly appreciated. > > Happy Skies, > > Old Bob > Stearman N3977A > > > > > > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > > Web Forums! > > > Admin. > > > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:13:35 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Best wiring techniques to use? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 04:36 PM 9/30/2006 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Denton" > >Hey, Bob! > >I don't know if these guys will sell you just the bolt, but it couldn't hurt >to ask... > >http://www.bandc.biz/GroundBlock.html Yes, I believe they will . . . at least they used to. I understand the coarse thread "dilemma" . . . that just smacks a lot like automotive. However, fine thread brass is not easy to find in the wild. I have no problems with coarse. Just torque the final setup appropriate to the material and thread. Before putting the last nut on, wipe the treads with a little E6000 before installing the last nut. It will be just fine. It's PRESSSURE in the joint that gets you gas-tight. Thread-locking the nut will make sure the pressure stays there. And yes, 3/8 would be better than 3/16. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:16:21 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: battery cables & Relays --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 01:51 PM 9/30/2006 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bob McCallum" > > >Dave; > >The "G" forces required to open a closed contactor are generally not >survivable. (or at least very close to it). I don't have quantitative >numbers, but I have tried pulling one open and the force required is VERY >significant. Many, many times that required to close it. > >Bob McC Yes, the whole g-forces on contactors thing was bogus from the get-go. I was at OSH one year when the story went around about some performer landing with a chewed up ring-gear. The "story" was that g-forces must have energized his starter contactor. Odds are that he was thinking really hard about the show ahead and took off with a stuck contactor. A study of the accelerations necessary to open a battery contactor or close a starter contactor just doesn't support the popular stories. Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:17:20 PM PST US From: Dave N6030X Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: battery cables & Relays --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dave N6030X So they why does everybody install them upside-down? Has the myth taken hold? Dave Morris At 05:15 PM 9/30/2006, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > >At 01:51 PM 9/30/2006 -0400, you wrote: > >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bob McCallum" >> >> >>Dave; >> >>The "G" forces required to open a closed contactor are generally not >>survivable. (or at least very close to it). I don't have quantitative >>numbers, but I have tried pulling one open and the force required is VERY >>significant. Many, many times that required to close it. >> >>Bob McC > > Yes, the whole g-forces on contactors thing was bogus from > the get-go. I was at OSH one year when the story went around > about some performer landing with a chewed up ring-gear. The > "story" was that g-forces must have energized his starter > contactor. Odds are that he was thinking really hard about the > show ahead and took off with a stuck contactor. > > A study of the accelerations necessary to open a battery contactor > or close a starter contactor just doesn't support the popular > stories. > > > Bob . . . > > --------------------------------------------------------- > < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > > < the authority which determines whether there can be > > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > > < with experiment. > > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > > --------------------------------------------------------- > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:10:37 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: battery cables & Relays --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 06:14 PM 9/30/2006 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dave N6030X > >So they why does everybody install them upside-down? Has the myth taken hold? > >Dave Morris Absolutely . . . just like avionics master switches. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:23:51 PM PST US From: "bob noffs" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: battery cables --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "bob noffs" thanks bob. i ordered the ground blocks from b anc yesterday. bob noffs ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 11:12 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: battery cables > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > > At 10:52 PM 9/28/2006 -0500, you wrote: > >>hi all, i am starting the wiring of my plane with the battery cables. from >>what i can get from bobs book i should keep the pos. and. neg. cables from >>the battery together, especially thru the cabin area, until they get >>firewall forward. then terminate the neg. at the crankcase with a jumper >>cable from crankcase to the ground block on the firewall. have i got this >>right? thanks in advance. > > If you have a metal airplane, local grounding of the battery > IS an option. See: > > http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Battery_Grounds/Battery_Grounds.html > > If you choose to bring battery (-) forward, then tie it > off on the firewall ground block thru bolt. Take a jumper > from the same bolt forward to the crankcase. This is > illustrated in Z-15, View A of: > > http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev11/AppZ_R11J.pdf > > > Bob . . . > > >