Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:30 AM - Brass bolt for firewall ground. (John Kent)
2. 02:59 AM - Re: Z-13 Alternator and Pmag Question (John Swartout)
3. 03:48 AM - Re: Brass bolt for firewall ground. (bob noffs)
4. 06:06 AM - Glowing LED Warning Lights, Too Dark Now (MikeEasley@aol.com)
5. 07:09 AM - Re: battery cables & Relays - Now G's (FLYaDIVE@aol.com)
6. 07:28 AM - Re:Brass hardware, was Best wiring techniques to use? (glen matejcek)
7. 07:30 AM - Re: battery cables & Relays 'G's" skunk stink (FLYaDIVE@aol.com)
8. 07:40 AM - Re: battery cables & Relays - Now G's (Bill Denton)
9. 07:57 AM - Re: battery cables & Relays - Now G's (Dave N6030X)
10. 08:34 AM - Re: battery cables & Relays - Now G's (Bob McCallum)
11. 08:34 AM - Re: battery cables & Relays - Now G's (Kevin Horton)
12. 08:54 AM - Re: battery cables & Relays - Now G's (Bob McCallum)
13. 09:33 AM - Re: Now G's (Gilles Thesee)
14. 09:55 AM - Re: battery cables & Relays - Now G's (Dave N6030X)
15. 11:40 AM - Re: Glowing LED Warning Lights, Too Dark Now (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
16. 12:35 PM - Re: Z-13 Alternator and Pmag Question (drill_and_buck)
17. 01:37 PM - Re: battery cables & Relays - Now G's (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
18. 01:38 PM - Re: Now G's (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
19. 01:56 PM - Re: Now G's (Gilles Thesee)
20. 03:10 PM - The alternator stand is here! (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
21. 03:22 PM - Re: Re: Z-13 Alternator and Pmag Question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
22. 03:45 PM - Re: The alternator stand is here! (OldBob Siegfried)
23. 06:54 PM - Re: Rotax 912 Starter Circuit (Jim Butcher)
24. 08:15 PM - Re: battery cables & Relays - Now G's (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
25. 11:31 PM - Official AeroElectric-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle)
26. 11:36 PM - Official AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Brass bolt for firewall ground. |
Why not get a bit of brass rod and use a =BC-28 (or whatever) die on it?
Some
old toilet cistern ball-cocks had brass rods=85.. Completely free if you
can
find a dead one! John Kent RV-4 EI-DIY.
Message 2
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| Subject: | Z-13 Alternator and Pmag Question |
I'll try to jump-start this thread, Mike, but I don't have all the
answers:
Starting with your last question first, one reason is so that if you
have to
shut down the main bus due smoke in the cockpit, or it shuts itself down
due
to a crowbar trip, you still have power to the P-mags. "P-mags, unlike
E-mags, don't need power," you say. Well, true, as long as their
internal
power is working, and as long as engine rpms are high enough. But the
theory is that your ignition system should always have power available.
This is explained on page Z-6 of Appendix Z (revision 11J) to the
AeroElectric Connection, under "Figure Z-29. Always-Hot Battery Bus."
The other reason is, if you use Bob's Z-33 circuit for maintenance/hand
propping, you need battery power available. Sure, you could run it
through
the Main Bus, but if you're just working on the Pmags on the ground,
having
them on the battery bus means you don't have to power anything else
up--even
the 1-amp-drawing Battery Contactor.
As for the next-to-last question, the archives are full of material on
this
question. Here's a sampling to get you started, but you can do your own
key-word search at www.matronics.com/searching/
Select the "AeroElectric" archive, and be sure to fill out the boxes as
to
how you want the results to appear. Select "Newest First" and "All
Messages,
No Index," and type "crowbar ov protection" into the Search String box.
Look at messages with the following numbers:
#25386, #14884, #14895, and this one, which doesn't come up with that
search
string:
Match: #1 Message: #25588 Date: Jul 27, 2005 From: "Robert L.
Nuckolls,
III" <nuckollsr(at)cox.net> Subject: Re: overvoltage protection false
trigger fix
>
>Well that made my day! We are going to have to start using the spell
>checker if such prestigious awards are on the line now though ;)
oops! is there a spelling error on the certificate? I checked
again and didn't see one.
>Glad I could return something useful to the group. I'm humbled - as no
>one has been more generous with his time and efforts here than Bob and
>it is Bob who has put his designs in the public domain for us...
>
>There was also a one liner buried in that post. When I realized that
the
>OVM with a 2.5 amp C/B was not blowing a 10 amp fuse despite numerous
>activations, it put to rest any minor concerns I might have had about
>extraordinary crowbar trip currents. I rather expected that the fuses
>would blow but I was using 18 awg wire and before making up fuselinks I
>thought I'd try feeding it off fuses and using the 2.5 amp breakers. I
>will leave it that way.
That's another simple idea that I'd not had time to touch on.
I recommend the fusible link upstream of a crowbar breaker because
very early tests on a variety of breakers showed that SOME products
had a I-squared*T constant much larger than a fuse several times the
size. I've had builders report opening a 20A fuse upstream of a
5A breaker. The fusible link seemed the best one-solution-fits-all
approach. I'm not surprised that your 10A fuse upstream of the
2.5 amp breaker is stable . . . a typical 2.5A miniature breaker
has about .28 ohms max internal resistance while the 5A is only
0.07 ohms max and typically .04 ohms.
It should be noted that not EVERYONE can expect the same results
given variability of breakers offered but if you're using the
miniature devices common to modern aircraft fabrication, odds
are that your experiences will parallel Ken's.
Bob . . .
Be advised that these message numbers do change over time, and some
disappear. But as of today, those are the numbers that will give you
some
insight into the fusible link/breaker combination.
Hope this helps.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
drill_and_buck
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 1:38 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Z-13 Alternator and Pmag Question
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "drill_and_buck"
<mdraper@nww.com>
I am using Z-13 as a baseline to design my electrical system for my
RV-8.
I have read the Aeroelectric book and attended one of Bob's weekend
seminars, but haven't yet quite grasped all the concepts.
I would appreciate it if someone could help me better understand the
rationale behind the alternator field circuit. In particular..
1. What is the rationale behind using a fuselink AND a 5A breaker on
the
alternator field circuit? Wouldn't the breaker eliminate the need for
a
fuselink?
2. If the fuselink is optional, would it be practical to just use a 5A
fuse
rather than a breaker?
On the P-Mag (self powered mag) circuit...
1. What is the benefit of wiring the P-Mags to the battery buss. Why
not
just wire the P-Mags to the main power bus.
Thanks in advance for your replies..
Mike Draper
RV-8
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=64522#64522
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Brass bolt for firewall ground. |
in the past 2 days i ordered an extra 5/16 brass bolt from b and c. also
some extra star washers. they will split up anything they sell and sell
an individual part. bob noffs
----- Original Message -----
From: John Kent
To: Aeroelectric-List@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 3:11 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Brass bolt for firewall ground.
Why not get a bit of brass rod and use a =BC-28 (or whatever) die on
it? Some old toilet cistern ball-cocks had brass rods... Completely free
if you can find a dead one! John Kent RV-4 EI-DIY.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Glowing LED Warning Lights, Too Dark Now |
My LED voltage warning lights are now too dark to see in daylight after
adding the resistors in the drawing.
Smaller resistors?
Deal with the glow?
Ideas?
Thanks in advance,
Mike Easley
Lancair Super ES, 12V
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: battery cables & Relays - Now G's |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com
In a message dated 9/30/06 1:59:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
robert.mccallum2@sympatico.ca writes:
> The "G" forces required to open a closed contactor are generally not
> survivable. (or at least very close to it). I don't have quantitative
> numbers, but I have tried pulling one open and the force required is VERY
> significant. Many, many times that required to close it.
>
> Bob McC
=========================
Dave & Bob:
UhmpTeen years ago I had access to a laboratory of test equipment. And did
some pretty weird tests ... Mostly for the government ... Figures ... They are
TOTALLY WEIRD! And useless I might add.
Anyway ... How many 'g's' do you think it takes to pop on a Bic Pen cap, you
know the old style Bic Pen that had the clear barrel and the blue removable
snap on cap?
The procedure was to LIGHTLY place the cap on the tip of the pen.
Hold the pen in a vertical position with the cap and point facing UP.
Then drop the pen on the other end.
The drop (KE) with the sudden stop would pop the cap onto the pen.
The height was increased until the cap was fully seated.
If I recall the height was somewhere around 4 or 5 feet onto a steel
accelerometer surface.
So how many 'g's' do you think?
Remember the height was ONLY 4 to 5 feet.
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
Message 6
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| Subject: | RE:Brass hardware, was Best wiring techniques to use? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "glen matejcek" <aerobubba@earthlink.net>
Hi Bob-
>What I have not been able to find is a source for the
>proper brass bolt... ...Any thoughts?
>
>Old Bob
I get my brass nuts, bolts, washers, and phosphor bronze internal star lock
washers from the aviation department of Ace hardware. Be advised, the
proprietor didn't know what phosphor bronze washers were or what they were
for, but he still had them-
glen matejcek
aerobubba@earthlink.net
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: battery cables & Relays 'G's" skunk stink |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com
In a message dated 9/30/06 7:21:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
N6030X@DaveMorris.com writes:
> So they why does everybody install them upside-down? Has the myth taken
hold?
>
>
> Dave Morris
==================
So right you are ... Welcome to "The Myth Market".
Have you ever heard the story/explaination on why Perfume coast more than
cologne?
As you probably do already know Perfume lasts for a much longer time than
cologne. [BTW, even though the term cologne has been adapted for men, the same
exists for women, just that it still goes by the name perfume and still does
not last as long as good perfume.]
Well, in the making of perfume Skunk Essence is used and as you all know the
smell of skunk lingers for a long, long time. This skunk essence is expensive
to collect - MILK - is the term. Just as you MILK a snake for its venom you
milk a skunk for its essence. Small amounts of the essence or extract are
used in the manufacture of perfume. Hence the basis for the additional cost.
Now, don't get me wrong, ADVERTISING has raised the price to coincide with the
purchasing ego. But the first initial price difference was due to the expense
of skunk essence.
So have you, your wives or girlfriends ever heard of this explanation?
I'll tell you the REST of the story after this beak.
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
"Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third
time."
Yamashiada
Message 8
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| Subject: | battery cables & Relays - Now G's |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Denton" <bdenton@bdenton.com>
Interesting test, but not really valid here...
You "Bic pen" test measured essentially two things:
Friction
Sealing
These are the two factor that determine the ease (or lack thereof) with
which the cap can be seated on the pen.
Gravity would have been a negligible factor in this type of test.
With a contactor, you are dealing with a solenoid, which is designed and
constructed to provide a given, and measurable, amount of "pull in" force.
You can also simply weigh the object being pulled in.
Just as a hypothetical...note that I am neither a scientist nor an engineer,
so if I'm "terminology deficient" please try to let it slide.
Assume that, if operated vertically, the solenoid can lift a 15 lb weight.
Also assume that the movable contactor portion of the device weighs 1 lb.
Obviously, it would take a gravitational force of greater than 15 g's to
open the contactor.
Note that it was only "static" gravity being considered in the above
hypothetical.
In an aircraft flying aerobatics, such factors as acceleration would also
play a part in the equation...
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
FLYaDIVE@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, October 1, 2006 9:07 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: battery cables & Relays - Now G's
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com
In a message dated 9/30/06 1:59:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
robert.mccallum2@sympatico.ca writes:
> The "G" forces required to open a closed contactor are generally not
> survivable. (or at least very close to it). I don't have quantitative
> numbers, but I have tried pulling one open and the force required is VERY
> significant. Many, many times that required to close it.
>
> Bob McC
=========================
Dave & Bob:
UhmpTeen years ago I had access to a laboratory of test equipment. And did
some pretty weird tests ... Mostly for the government ... Figures ... They
are
TOTALLY WEIRD! And useless I might add.
Anyway ... How many 'g's' do you think it takes to pop on a Bic Pen cap, you
know the old style Bic Pen that had the clear barrel and the blue removable
snap on cap?
The procedure was to LIGHTLY place the cap on the tip of the pen.
Hold the pen in a vertical position with the cap and point facing UP.
Then drop the pen on the other end.
The drop (KE) with the sudden stop would pop the cap onto the pen.
The height was increased until the cap was fully seated.
If I recall the height was somewhere around 4 or 5 feet onto a steel
accelerometer surface.
So how many 'g's' do you think?
Remember the height was ONLY 4 to 5 feet.
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: battery cables & Relays - Now G's |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dave N6030X <N6030X@DaveMorris.com>
Barry, I think that would depend on whether it was a girl's BIC pen
or a guy's. (Girls tend to chew on the caps and then a higher force
is required to re-cap them).
:)
I give up, how many g's?
Dave Morris
At 09:07 AM 10/1/2006, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com
>
>In a message dated 9/30/06 1:59:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>robert.mccallum2@sympatico.ca writes:
>
> > The "G" forces required to open a closed contactor are generally not
> > survivable. (or at least very close to it). I don't have quantitative
> > numbers, but I have tried pulling one open and the force required is VERY
> > significant. Many, many times that required to close it.
> >
> > Bob McC
>=========================
>Dave & Bob:
>
>UhmpTeen years ago I had access to a laboratory of test equipment. And did
>some pretty weird tests ... Mostly for the government ... Figures
>... They are
>TOTALLY WEIRD! And useless I might add.
>Anyway ... How many 'g's' do you think it takes to pop on a Bic Pen cap, you
>know the old style Bic Pen that had the clear barrel and the blue removable
>snap on cap?
>The procedure was to LIGHTLY place the cap on the tip of the pen.
>Hold the pen in a vertical position with the cap and point facing UP.
>Then drop the pen on the other end.
>The drop (KE) with the sudden stop would pop the cap onto the pen.
>The height was increased until the cap was fully seated.
>If I recall the height was somewhere around 4 or 5 feet onto a steel
>accelerometer surface.
>So how many 'g's' do you think?
>
>Remember the height was ONLY 4 to 5 feet.
>
>
>Barry
>"Chop'd Liver"
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: battery cables & Relays - Now G's |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bob McCallum" <robert.mccallum2@sympatico.ca>
Bill;
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Denton" <bdenton@bdenton.com>
> Interesting test, but not really valid here...
>
> You "Bic pen" test measured essentially two things:
>
> Friction
>
> Sealing
>
> These are the two factor that determine the ease (or lack thereof) with
> which the cap can be seated on the pen.
>
> Gravity would have been a negligible factor in this type of test.
>
> With a contactor, you are dealing with a solenoid, which is designed and
> constructed to provide a given, and measurable, amount of "pull in" force.
> You can also simply weigh the object being pulled in.
>
> Just as a hypothetical...note that I am neither a scientist nor an
engineer,
> so if I'm "terminology deficient" please try to let it slide.
>
> Assume that, if operated vertically, the solenoid can lift a 15 lb weight.
> Also assume that the movable contactor portion of the device weighs 1 lb.
> Obviously, it would take a gravitational force of greater than 15 g's to
> open the contactor.
This is only correct as far as it goes. The nature of a solenoid is such
that when the core is withdrawn (as in the de-energized position) it can
exert a certain "pull", 15 lbs in your example. However when the core is
fully enveloped by the coil, (as in the energized/closed, position), the
holding force is many times greater. So in actual fact the G-forces required
for release are not only the 15 required to overcome the spring, but
actually several times higher. The simple hand pull test I alluded to
earlier makes this obvious. It's easy to hold the "core" against the pull in
force, but very difficult to pull it free once it's closed.
>
> Note that it was only "static" gravity being considered in the above
> hypothetical.
>
> In an aircraft flying aerobatics, such factors as acceleration would also
> play a part in the equation...
>
>
Bob McC
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: battery cables & Relays - Now G's |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kevin Horton <khorton01@rogers.com>
On 1 Oct 2006, at 10:07, FLYaDIVE@aol.com wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com
>
> In a message dated 9/30/06 1:59:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> robert.mccallum2@sympatico.ca writes:
>
>> The "G" forces required to open a closed contactor are generally not
>> survivable. (or at least very close to it). I don't have
>> quantitative
>> numbers, but I have tried pulling one open and the force required
>> is VERY
>> significant. Many, many times that required to close it.
>>
>> Bob McC
> =========================
> Dave & Bob:
>
> UhmpTeen years ago I had access to a laboratory of test equipment.
> And did
> some pretty weird tests ... Mostly for the government ...
> Figures ... They are
> TOTALLY WEIRD! And useless I might add.
> Anyway ... How many 'g's' do you think it takes to pop on a Bic Pen
> cap, you
> know the old style Bic Pen that had the clear barrel and the blue
> removable
> snap on cap?
> The procedure was to LIGHTLY place the cap on the tip of the pen.
> Hold the pen in a vertical position with the cap and point facing UP.
> Then drop the pen on the other end.
> The drop (KE) with the sudden stop would pop the cap onto the pen.
> The height was increased until the cap was fully seated.
> If I recall the height was somewhere around 4 or 5 feet onto a steel
> accelerometer surface.
> So how many 'g's' do you think?
>
> Remember the height was ONLY 4 to 5 feet.
How did you determine the relationship between the reading on
accelerometer when the pen landed on it and the acceleration that the
pen cap was subjected to?
If the accelerometer wasn't mounted on the pen cap, I'm not really
sure what you were measuring.
Kevin Horton
Ottawa, Canada
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: battery cables & Relays - Now G's |
Barry;
I don't know, but it's going to be pretty high as the deceleration
distance is extremely small, and you have to provide enough force to
overcome distorting the plastic past the detents. The weight of the cap
is tiny, the force required a few ounces, so the G's will be extreme.
(now there's a quantified term for you )
Bob McC
DO NOT ARCHIVE
----- Original Message -----
From: <FLYaDIVE@aol.com>
> Dave & Bob:
>
> UhmpTeen years ago I had access to a laboratory of test equipment.
And did
> some pretty weird tests ... Mostly for the government ... Figures ...
They are
> TOTALLY WEIRD! And useless I might add.
> Anyway ... How many 'g's' do you think it takes to pop on a Bic Pen
cap, you
> know the old style Bic Pen that had the clear barrel and the blue
removable
> snap on cap?
> The procedure was to LIGHTLY place the cap on the tip of the pen.
> Hold the pen in a vertical position with the cap and point facing UP.
> Then drop the pen on the other end.
> The drop (KE) with the sudden stop would pop the cap onto the pen.
> The height was increased until the cap was fully seated.
> If I recall the height was somewhere around 4 or 5 feet onto a steel
> accelerometer surface.
> So how many 'g's' do you think?
>
> Remember the height was ONLY 4 to 5 feet.
>
>
> Barry
> "Chop'd Liver"
Message 13
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Bob McCallum a crit :
> *Barry;*
> **
> *I don't know, but it's going to be pretty high as the deceleration
> distance is extremely small, and you have to provide enough force to
> overcome distorting the plastic past the detents. The weight of the
> cap is tiny, the force required a few ounces, so the G's will be
> extreme. (now there's a quantified term for you* *)*
> **
Hi all,
Those clear Bic pens are still around in my area.
What I'do is weigh the cap with a precision scale, then push the cap on
against a larger scale. And then do the math to get the gs...
Regards,
Gilles Thesee
Grenoble, France
http://contrails.free.fr
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: battery cables & Relays - Now G's |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dave N6030X <N6030X@DaveMorris.com>
Barry, I think when I worked in a government lab I must have had more
fun than you. We were shooting down missiles using an airborne laser
in a KC-135. You should see what a gigawatt pulsed CO2 laser does to
a BIC cap, or a chunk of asbestos concrete.
:)
Dave Morris
>UhmpTeen years ago I had access to a laboratory of test equipment. And did
>some pretty weird tests ... Mostly for the government ... Figures
>... They are
>TOTALLY WEIRD! And useless I might add.
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Glowing LED Warning Lights, Too Dark Now |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 09:04 AM 10/1/2006 -0400, you wrote:
>My LED voltage warning lights are now too dark to see in daylight after
>adding the resistors in the drawing.
>
>Smaller resistors?
>
>Deal with the glow?
What kind of LED's are you using? Individual lamps
or something buried in an assembly? Are they fitted with
any kind of built-in resistor? I.e., designed already
to run directly from 12 or 24v?
Adding the pair of 220 ohm resistors as shown in
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/LV_Led.jpg
assumes that your LED is "barefoot", i.e. no additional
resistances other than those shown in the schematic.
If your led has any such series resistances, then eliminate
the series 220 ohm resistor entirely and run only one
220 ohm resistor in parallel with your resistor-led
combination.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Z-13 Alternator and Pmag Question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "drill_and_buck" <mdraper@nww.com>
John:
Thanks for the reply and insight.
The lightbulb went off when you mentioned OV crowbar protection. I completely
overlooked that factor. The fuselink now makes sense on the alternator circuit
when an OV situation arises and the 5A breaker doesn't trip.
-Mike Draper
RV-8 finish
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=65041#65041
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: battery cables & Relays - Now G's |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 11:33 AM 10/1/2006 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kevin Horton <khorton01@rogers.com>
>
>On 1 Oct 2006, at 10:07, FLYaDIVE@aol.com wrote:
>
>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com
>>
>>In a message dated 9/30/06 1:59:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>>robert.mccallum2@sympatico.ca writes:
>>
>>>The "G" forces required to open a closed contactor are generally not
>>> survivable. (or at least very close to it). I don't have
>>>quantitative
>>> numbers, but I have tried pulling one open and the force required
>>>is VERY
>>> significant. Many, many times that required to close it.
>>>
>>> Bob McC
>>=========================
>>Dave & Bob:
>>
>>UhmpTeen years ago I had access to a laboratory of test equipment.
>>And did
>>some pretty weird tests ... Mostly for the government ...
>>Figures ... They are
>>TOTALLY WEIRD! And useless I might add.
>>Anyway ... How many 'g's' do you think it takes to pop on a Bic Pen
>>cap, you
>>know the old style Bic Pen that had the clear barrel and the blue
>>removable
>>snap on cap?
>>The procedure was to LIGHTLY place the cap on the tip of the pen.
>>Hold the pen in a vertical position with the cap and point facing UP.
>>Then drop the pen on the other end.
>>The drop (KE) with the sudden stop would pop the cap onto the pen.
>>The height was increased until the cap was fully seated.
>>If I recall the height was somewhere around 4 or 5 feet onto a steel
>>accelerometer surface.
>>So how many 'g's' do you think?
>>
>>Remember the height was ONLY 4 to 5 feet.
>
>How did you determine the relationship between the reading on
>accelerometer when the pen landed on it and the acceleration that the
>pen cap was subjected to?
>
>If the accelerometer wasn't mounted on the pen cap, I'm not really
>sure what you were measuring.
I'm having trouble visualizing it too. The acceleration imparted
on the cap was a function of change in velocity and
time over which the change takes place. Acceleration
delta velocity / t. Terminal velocity on a 5 foot
fall at 32.16 f/s/s is 18 feet/second.
When the pen hits the hard stop, we don't know what
time interval elapses between first contact and zero
velocity . . . i.e. time to bring to rest. The smaller
the number, the higher the acceleration. I suspect the
accelerometer was used as a timing device . . . I.e,
measurement of the force interval for stopping the
pen's fall, not as a direct measurement of acceleration.
In any case, numbers in the hundreds of g's would not
surprise me.
Bob . . .
Message 18
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 06:31 PM 10/1/2006 +0200, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee
><Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>
>Bob McCallum a crit :
>>*Barry;*
>>** *I don't know, but it's going to be pretty high as the deceleration
>>distance is extremely small, and you have to provide enough force to
>>overcome distorting the plastic past the detents. The weight of the cap
>>is tiny, the force required a few ounces, so the G's will be extreme.
>>(now there's a quantified term for you* *)*
>>**
>
>Hi all,
>
>Those clear Bic pens are still around in my area.
>What I'do is weigh the cap with a precision scale, then push the cap on
>against a larger scale. And then do the math to get the gs...
Sounds like a good idea to me!
But golly Gilles . . . you wouldn't want this to get
too simple. After all, we've got all this whippy
test equipment that would be a shame to waste!
Bob . . .
Message 19
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>
> But golly Gilles . . . you wouldn't want this to get
> too simple. After all, we've got all this whippy
> test equipment that would be a shame to waste!
>
LOL !
The vision of all those engineers in their white coats, and dropping
pens repeatedly...
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
Message 20
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| Subject: | The alternator stand is here! |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
Dave Swartzendruber dropped by the house a few minutes
ago and unloaded his trailer in my driveway.
Couldn't see much detail the first time I saw the drive
stand in the dark shed. What a magnificent piece of machinery!
Pictures are posted pictures at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Alternator_Test_Stand
I've written the manufacturer (Jimco in Missouri) about
getting documents for the test stand. As far as I can tell
from their website, this item is still in production.
I've got a couple of interns at RAC I think I'll tap for
some help getting things cleaned up, checked out and working.
In addition to the motor adjusted variable speed pulley drive,
there's an air cylinder driven by a front panel adjustable
pressure regulator to lift the motor assembly and to adjust
belt tension. The carbon pile load is good for 200A testing.
It's capable of testing 6, 12, 24 and 36 volt starters,
generators and alternators.
The batteries were shot but didn't leak and make a mess.
The dirt was mostly dust and came off the surfaces with
Windex and a rag. A vacuum sweeper pulled about a cubic
foot of leaves out of the interior. Out in the sunlight,
this crusty ol' beast turns out to be a real gem underneath.
Watch this space.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Z-13 Alternator and Pmag Question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 12:34 PM 10/1/2006 -0700, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "drill_and_buck" <mdraper@nww.com>
>
>John:
>
>Thanks for the reply and insight.
>
>
>The lightbulb went off when you mentioned OV crowbar protection. I
>completely overlooked that factor. The fuselink now makes sense on the
>alternator circuit when an OV situation arises and the 5A breaker doesn't trip.
Closer . . .
The fusible link isn't in there to back up the 5A breaker.
It's there to protect the length of wire between the fuseblock
and breaker. Normally, we'd simply mount the breaker at the bus,
but since the bus is the fuseblock . . . and probably remote
from the panel . . . now there's a small wire connected to FAT
wires that cant' use a fuse for protection. This is because we
expect the fuse to stay in place during a crowbar event . . . which
is difficult except when you use the fusible link.
This is a classic rationale for use of fusible links for smaller
wires and is simply a scaled down rationale for ANL limiters
on large wires.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: The alternator stand is here! |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: OldBob Siegfried <oldbob@beechowners.com>
A fella's just gotta have stuff, and that looks like
really neat stuff!!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
Do Not Archive
--- "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L.
> Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
>
> Dave Swartzendruber dropped by the house a few
> minutes
> ago and unloaded his trailer in my driveway.
>
> Couldn't see much detail the first time I saw the
> drive
> stand in the dark shed. What a magnificent piece of
> machinery!
> Pictures are posted pictures at:
>
>
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Alternator_Test_Stand
>
> I've written the manufacturer (Jimco in Missouri)
> about
> getting documents for the test stand. As far as I
> can tell
> from their website, this item is still in
> production.
>
> I've got a couple of interns at RAC I think I'll tap
> for
> some help getting things cleaned up, checked out and
> working.
> In addition to the motor adjusted variable speed
> pulley drive,
> there's an air cylinder driven by a front panel
> adjustable
> pressure regulator to lift the motor assembly and to
> adjust
> belt tension. The carbon pile load is good for 200A
> testing.
> It's capable of testing 6, 12, 24 and 36 volt
> starters,
> generators and alternators.
>
> The batteries were shot but didn't leak and make a
> mess.
> The dirt was mostly dust and came off the surfaces
> with
> Windex and a rag. A vacuum sweeper pulled about a
> cubic
> foot of leaves out of the interior. Out in the
> sunlight,
> this crusty ol' beast turns out to be a real gem
> underneath.
>
> Watch this space.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------
> < What is so wonderful about scientific
> truth...is that >
> < the authority which determines whether there
> can be >
> < debate or not does not reside in some
> fraternity of >
> < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority
> rests >
> < with experiment.
> >
> < --Lawrence M.
> Krauss >
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>
> Web Forums!
>
>
> Admin.
>
>
>
>
>
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912 Starter Circuit |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Butcher" <europa@triton.net>
>
> Rotax 912 Starter Circuit.
>
> On my homebuilt with Rotax 912 I would like to use 2 switches (2-5 type)
for magneto's
> and starter function. How are these wired and shielded?
> Any feedback appreciated.
We did this using 2-5 switches wired as shown in Z-11. The shielded wires
have their shields connected to the engine near the coils. The switch end
shields are as shown in the diagram. This set up requires that you toggle
both switches to the start position to activate the starter. You cannot
operate the starter without having the magnetos operate as well but we have
found that it is easy to hand crank the engine with the switches off until
you get oil pressure after changing the oil etc. Works well for us.
Jim & Heather Butcher
Europa 914 N241BW
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: battery cables & Relays - Now G's |
Man, you sure can tell it's the weekend...
do not archive
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----------------
The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com
in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in
a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.)
ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives
Download Via Web
----------------
The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found
toward the bottom of the following web page:
http://www.matronics.com/archives
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*** Complete List Web Archive Browsing ***
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All messages posted to the AeroElectric-List are also available using the
Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages
in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed.
http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?AeroElectric
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**** High-Speed Archive Search Engine ***
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You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine
to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the
List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently
available List archives.
http://www.matronics.com/search
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and other data with members of the List without having to forward a
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them to:
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!! ==> Please including the following information with each submission:
1) Email Lists that they are related to.
2) Your Full Name.
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4) One line Subject description.
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic.
6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file
Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned
for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and
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Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be
sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new
Share is available and what the direct URL to it is.
For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main
Index Page:
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
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*** List Archive CDROM ***
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A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains
all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives
for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search
engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it
and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make
great gifts!
http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM
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******************************************************************************
AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the AeroElectric-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the AeroElectric-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
AeroElectric-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the AeroElectric-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
Message 26
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Official AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
Dear Listers,
Please read over the AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete
AeroElectric-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/AeroElectric-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the AeroElectric-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the AeroElectric-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
AeroElectric-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the AeroElectric-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
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